I want to start doing 3D work, Im finding my Illustrator stuff too flat. Which program do you think is better, Carrara or Bryce? I am interesting in making my own objects and textures. Thanks.

I guess not a lot of people in this forum will suggest Bryce :-) I would say: try the demos. Bruce is more or less specialised in landscapes, but C4 has been upgraded in that department. Maybe you can compare the work in the Carrara and the Bryce galleries here on Renderosity, to see what kind of work people use it for. Carrara's rendering tends to be faster too. And the moddeling in Bryce is not great. I would recommend Carrara greatly, but as I said, this is not the most objective forum for that question.

I actually purchased Bryce 5.5 earlier this year and worked wih it for 4-6 weeks before abandoning it. It does have some nice features and does some things much easier than Carrara. However, I abandoned it for 2 reasons. First, because of the texture engine, which seemed seemed to be too much of a hit or miss affair (or perhaps I was just unable to figure it out). The other reason was it was no better than Carrara (C4-Pro version) in the things I was hoping to use it for, primarily skys and clouds.

As Hoofdcommissaris points out, Bryce is built for landscapes and there are people who have done some marvelous work with it. But as an all around tool that does everything in one package (modeling, texturing and rendering), Carrara is hard beat.

Ive been a bryce user since version2 I stopped at version5 OSX. Bryce has no "modeling" tools at all and NO.... elaborate boolean extracts is not 3D modeling:-) Ive seen bryce users proudly announcing that they just finished an eleven day render of a still image!! to me this is preposterous!! the biggest problem with bryce is that it has a raytrace only render engine still based on eric wengers aging mathematical algorithims written nearly 20 years ago. Carrara is the better value as you get true fast HDRI/GI not having to resort to faked 100+ item light sets Direct support of the poser format if you need humanoids in your scene. With animation!! FBX import/export for scene exchange with all of the major 3d applications particle effectsand of course REAL modeling texturing tools.

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I'd go for Carrara for a number of reasons, but that isn't to slight Bryce. I also spent several years with Bryce. I still miss the Bryce texture editor, the "DTE", which to me combined ease of use with a format that made it possible for me to see and understand how the texture components interacted. Carrara's editor may have already surpassed the DTE in power, but the presentation as a huge "list" makes it harder for me to grasp what complex multi-channel shaders are doing. Similar remarks on terrain and sky generation. Carrara does seem very slow dealing with terrains, either in display or render, and I've generally had to use fewer at smaller resolutions because of this. I've also not been able to get excellent clouds going with Carrara -- but then, Bryce fell short of the mark as well (it just got closer with less effort). One can also argue either way on the built-in tree generators. Bryce uses a simulated tree with textured spheres for foliage. It has the potential of rendering faster, and can look good if used carefully. Carrrara has a full-function proceedural tree generator that can animate, but if you are not careful it will send your poly count into the stratosphere. On the other side, there is no comparison between the two when you get into Carrara's modelling tools, built-in UVmapper, physics and plug-ins. "Thinking in Bryce" can actually be a good exercise for a modeller, but one would never turn to Bryce as a primary modeller. On lighting and render options...herein lies the reason I made the switch myself. I do lighting in the real world, and to simulate the radiosity and caustic effects my mind's eye expects in an image took many lights and various other tricks within Bryce (ambience, gels, negative lights, light objects, etc.) The first time I ran a GI render in Carrara -- default settings -- I was hooked. It got closer than Bryce had for me with less work, and in a render that lasted minutes, not hours or days. It all depends on what you wish to do. If you are just making imaginary landscapes, and you are willing to let others provide cars and houses and people, the real question would be "Which is better; Bryce or Vue?" I think most people would answer Vue. I still think Bryce is one of the simplest applications to pick up, and could provide a nice entry into 3d for a certain personality. It is also cheap, and gives good results within its core area (deeply textured, dramatic imaginary landscapes -- see, Vue may beat it for realism, but to my eye Vue landscapes are always washed out and rather simplified). If you mean to go further into 3d, it makes sense to start with Carrara, which not only gives you modelling options in addition to a powerful and flexible render engine, but also, mostly, uses similar terms and methods to the mainstream applications like Max et al. Learning Carrara won't put you in a weird box where all you can speak is your own language.

Well nomuse has said it all but I'll add me personal experience. I had Bryce back in me Raydream days (Raydream has since become Carrara). The thing to know is this. I love to build models. My first idea was to put a sword in a rock crystal and render it in the open (I have a crazy version of this idea in my gallery created in Carrara). I couldn't create the crystal or the sword in Bryce! Hmm, that wasn't very useful. So........ I went to get a book. I found a decent book on Bryce which talked about how to make models. How to build thingy 1. Step 1, open up some other application and build your thingy in there. Step 2, import it into Bryce. Well that's not so good. How about how to build this other thingy. How to build the other thingy. Step 1, open up some other application and build your thingy in there. Step 2, import it into Bryce. Ok, I'm not so dense after all. Bryce isn't a modeler, it's really a package designed for landscapes (hence the name Bryce, named after Bryce Canyon Utah, or so I've read). The texture engine in Carrara is very powerful and consequently can also be confusing but it's not that hard if you're just starting out using simple textures. There's lots of people who will help you here as well. Power = Complexity. There's no way around it. The cool thing about Carrara is that if you're doing it simple, the texture engine can also start simple so you should be set. Browse through the gallery. Most of the stuff in there was built, textured, and rendered in the one single package. Humans are almost managed exclusively in poser and then imported somehow but you can get the gist of the deal. A demo is ALWAYS a smart thing to do so I'd go that route but be prepared to spend some time on any application before you decide. -Kix

-Kix

I use several software packages (VUE 5i, Corel Bryce 5, Cinema4d CE+, Carrara Poser 6 and Truespace 5) I have found that there isnt any one perfect package out there try out demos of the various one's out there and see what fits you best. I use Carrara to do alot of my rendering its easy and produces great results however the modeling is weak, cinema4d or truespace has a better work flow. Take a look at carrara 3d basic V2 great package for the price. Hope this helps.

Carrara Pro 4 comes with Amapi Designer 7 which is one of the best 3D modelers available. Carrara renders and animates imported objects from it extremely well.

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Thanks everybody. Very clear. I have been playing with the Carrara demo and finally got something useful out of it. It doesn't seem to like importing DXF files I've noticed but am hoping that is just limited to the demo. AI comes out perfect. Yesterday also downloaded Shader 8 demo. My lord that does seem complicated. See that there is a forum here for that program too, but nobody seems to use it. Anybody have any experience with that?

I have Shade7 le, which came with a Poser6 promo. In general, Shade seems to be a very good modeler and renderer. Unfortunately, it just doesn't work the way I think. I've found C4D (V6 XL), Carrara, and Hexagon (dedicated modeling application) to be the easiest to use. They all seem to fit the way I think (or maybe the way I don't think ??? ).

What I've found is regardless of the features, "power", and popularity of a software package, if it doesn't "fit" the way your mind works, you will have to work very hard to get results. Working with software that is counter intuitive litereally takes ALL of the fun out of 3D. Try the demos!

A good sampling would be Carrara, Shade, Truespace, Cinema 4D, XSI, and Lightwave. These all have very different user interfaces, with the last three being considered "pro" applications (which often translates into a lot more $$$$ to get the specific additional funtionality you really want or need).

Don't forget about the free software! Wings 3D, Anim8tor, and Blender all have their strengths. Blender is a very full featured 3D software, but many people find it's user interface difficult, which may actually be just the complexity of Blender - it's got a lot under the hood.

Good Luck!

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Thanks think I'll really need it. Agg sometimes I think it is really easier just to get out my pencil and draw!

For all those who bad mouth Bryce it does one thing better than any other 3d program I have work with. If you want a absolute stunning land scape or a outdoor environment and have the time to wait for some very long rendering times then Bryce beats any other app. hands down. At 100 dollars it is what it is, as other said try everything you can get your hands on. All 3D programs have strengths and weakness, try them all and make up you own mind. Dale

Everyone pretty much said it. I don't think people are really badmouthing Bryce. For overall modeling if those are your 2 choices then Carrara is better. However, Bryce def does lotsa landscape things better. If you go C4 I feel C4Pro is much better over standard.However, C3 is pretty bad with landscapes.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

I personally use both Bryce (see my nick..I'm one of the 'original' brycers) and Carrara (from back when it was raydream) While I can do anything in either application that I want, I'd say that Carrara is probably the best buy for someone looking for an "all around" app. Especially since C4 comes with Amapi Designer (an extremely powerful modeling program which I made a tutorial cd for). You get a very large wallup for the purchase of C4. If you are just beginning 3d however, Bryce is hands down the tool to get to learn the principle while having the ability to create stunning work. Its the easiest tool out there to introduce a user to 3d and its basic principles (coordinates, texturing, atmosphere, lighting..etc) Carrara can/does indeed offer these, but just not as simply as Bryce. If you have the cash, Id suggest both... if you want the biggest bang for your buck C4 if you just want to test the 3d waters and still get results then bryce your call luck in your choice, any way you go...I dont think you'll be sorry. :) BT

I was gonna say this before, but was holding off until I could find a way of saying it diplomatically. Well, diplomacy is not with me today. You'll have to take it unvarnished. Many software packages make a good introduction to 3d. Preferably, the package should have rendering and modelling built in (so the beginner doesn't have to learn two new applications at the same time), should use methods and terminology that are similar to mainstream usage (so you can move on later and not have to relearn from scratch), and have an interface that isn't so cluttered or technical or obtuse as to be difficult to pick up quickly. Bryce fits the bill. So does Carrara. Both programs have a version for around a hundred bucks. Poser should NOT be included in the list. Poser is a Faustian bargain for the beginner. With very little effort you can approach that which is most difficult in any of the visual arts; the human form. It is far too easy to be drawn into the luxuriance of the flesh, and to be misled over how little you are actually learning, and how little control you actually have. Poser is fine for someone with a good basic grounding in 3d, or in the arts in general. It is a sticky trap for someone just starting out.

yep I agree!! been a poser user since version2 as so far poser has'nt taught me a damn thing about 3D ;-) like all my version of cinem4d 6-8.5 has or lightwave 6.0-7.5 has but since when has poser claimed to be a "3D program" its a" figure posing and rendering "app where people learn to pick & click library icons for everything including lights and camera angles now having said, let ME be BLUNT and ask: WHAT THE HELL IS BRYCE THEN!!??? where in bryce would one learn what a polygon "normal" is. or a "nurb" or a "Graph Editor" or the difference between Phong& Ansitropic highlights or what a "subpatch cage" is bryce can create some stunning imagery for sure but Frankly it just as much a "toy" as poser

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To be honest...there's a lot of packages that were popular when Bryce was popular that didn't offer choices or description of render engine (aka you didn't even know it was Phong shading under the hood; it was just a "render now" button). And NURBS are more recent developments -- Carrara has gone a non-NURB direction (and doesn't do patches, HASH or Subpatch or otherwise). Bryce gave you primitives and boolean operations (okay, it was Bryce booleans, and run-time as well, but...) Back when I started out in 3d, learning to think in primitives was the first step. You got into splines and cages later. Still, these same basics can be learned with something like Mechanisto -- a no-frills primitive modelling, animation and render engine. With all that's out there in shareware and freeware, purchasing a low-end program as a learner is maybe not the best bet. True, it is possible to use Bryce as a pushbutton program. There are extensive libraries. And it also has that insidous attraction of making good-looking stuff with little effort on your part, allowing you to delude yourself for a time. I think the main difference is that most people grow out of the "reflective spheres over water plane" phase fairly quickly. The "Naked Vickie in a Temple with a Sword" phase, however, is extended, nay, lauded, in places like Renderosity. It is very difficult to keep hitting presets in Bryce and actually have anyone take you seriously. It is painfully easy to master how to import Vickie and apply a smart-prop sword to her hand, and be applauded by the peanut gallery.

Go over to Cgsociety.com and claim you are a "3D/CG professional who uses Bryce exclusively" and you will be laughed at just as derisively as if you said poser instead of bryce trust me :-)

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So? Go over to CGSociety and say you use Carrara, or Amapi, or Animation Master, or even C4d --or basically anything that isn't the "big three"-- and you'll get laughed at. And go in there as a Maya user and you'll still get attacked by the "XSI is Godly" crowd (and vice-versa). So when in this conversation did anyone suggest using Bryce exclusively? I think every post that mentions it, mentions it as A) a possible entry point for someone who has never done 3d before; and B) a potential part of a larger "suite" of artistic tools. Plus one does have to widen the conversation. A great many people that might find a use for Bryce are not professional 3d artists nor do they ever intend to be. There are commercial artists using Bryce the same way they use photo libraries; as a quick way to rough in an image to be painted in detail later. The career path to professional modeller is not the only task undertaken in 3d.

Go over to CGSociety and say you use Carrara, or Amapi, or Animation Master, or even C4d and you'll get laughed at." I've posted 3D art there lots of times using Eovia software. Haven't run into any problems with anyone. But then my audience there is more about topologies and methodologies.

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"Plus one does have to widen the conversation. A great many people that might find a use for Bryce are not professional 3d artists nor do they ever intend to be."<< Uhhh ....neither do many poser users By mentioning 3d related forums OUTSIDE of rosity i was "widening the conversation" and a great many people might find a use for poser and areNOT here posting nekkid vickies in the rosity galleries such as the animators doing forensic re-enactments for court TV. low cost previs animatics for movie pre production online Sci fi comics. childrens book illustration using those little DAZ kid figures etc.etc.

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Okay...I'll consider your point made. Still, within the context of the question "which is better to start learning 3d on" Bryce is a less bad choice than Poser. Interesting tidbit. I've talked a bit in forums with professional comic-book artists. There are rifts in the comic field over how to use references, but in the end it is said that Poser is sometimes useful to them as an artist's mannequin. Because of the absurd anatomy, however (the lack of an actual anatomical structure and the proper jointings), it has to be treated as essentialy one of those wooden figures. Okay for rough reference, not to be trusted beyond that. I am a truly amatuer pencil artist myself, but I've tried using Poser that way. It helps to get an idea of foreshortening and can even help to rough in a composition, but even I can see how the anatomy is not to be trusted. And how far off the question of "Bryce v. Carrara" have we gotten? It's been a fascination conversation nonetheless.

riko200, In an attempt to get this thread back on the original rails, if you haven't gone running into the wilderness from terror after reading all this stuff, please take the following as some interesting points. 1.) There are lots of great statements made in this thread concerning Bryce and Carrara that I really think should be weighed and taken as practical and useful. 2.) Both packages can produce fantastic results. The galleries are proof. 3.) Nuts and bolts of the packages are different and they have their strengths and weaknesses. Your original post stated you wanted to make your own objects and textures. From that strict viewpoint, I'd say that Carrara will do better for you for building objects. The texture engines are different between Bryce and Carrara and only you will be able to judge which you personally will be able to interface with. I personally believe that Carrara has a more powerful texture engine but it's also a little more work to learn so there is a tradeoff. 4.) DEMO, DEMO, DEMO!!!! The absolute bottom line will come down to your personal needs! The reason these kinds of threads always have a serious atmosphere about them is because people think different and they interface with the apps different and people have great passion about it. That's why you will never find 100% consensus about an application. The great thing about it is that you will get to read about lots of experiences and needs from lots of people. Take that into consideration when people are expressing their opinions and absorb it objectively. There's lots of good stuff in there (for example, I now know that I never need to go to CGSociety!). Let's hope this thread doesn't scare you away from the forum! People are serious about the applications because it's important to be able to generate a final product without having to beat your computer into tiny little bitty bits (all of us who've been around this stuff for a while have been on that edge!)! Saving people from that frustration will generate you major Karma! -Kix

-Kix

Thank you all for the very good advice. Ordered Carrara today. Soon I should have many interesting hours to fill. Hummm. I never considered Poser a 3D program. Have version 4 and never could get anything out of it. All my renderings came out looking like Barbie dolls that melted. Now you all have me getting scarred. Well at least it has got to be better than Ulead Cool 3D! No? Again thanks all.

Great choice welcome to 3D, It really doesnt matter what software you use as long as you get the results you want. As far as Poser or Bryce are concerned they both are 3D software packages (you can import and export geometry) - just not modelers in the sence of a more dedicated packages. The first program I used to get in tune with 3D was bryce then raydream, bryce has a great manual expaining a lot of 3D jargon I later moved over to raydream because I wanted to make objects to render in bryce and soon added poser to the mix to do the same. I recently upgrade to Carrara 4 Pro mostly for amapi designer (much better interface then the previous version) I think you will find the landscape tools easy to use and intuitive the the sky's can be made to look very nice with little effort. Happy rendering