Attached Link: http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~henrik/images/imgs/diana_closeup.jpg

Hi all, I'm considering C5, but it seems that most of the new features are really only existing plug-ins that have been "included" inside the package. I already own Vue 5 Infinite, and the "surface replicator" thing looks like a pale imitation of the Vue EcoSystems. The only thing that really looks interesting to me, is the sub-surface scattering. However, all the examples I've seen on the eovia site or here look like simple absorbtion rather than true sub-surface scattering. Can anybody who's tried the beta tell me if it's real sub-surface scattering (like in the statue image attached), or just the basic absorbtion? Thanks!

"seems that most of the new features are really only existing plug-ins that have been "included" inside the package"

Hmm. At a glance I'd guess that less than 10 percent of the new features are available as plugs elswhere unless there are some great plugs out there I haven't seen. This sounds like a great upgrade to me. Read the thread five below this one. 140 plus posts, many using the beta, with helpful info.

Message edited on: 10/29/2005 04:47

Message edited on: 10/29/2005 04:49

I don't know whether C5 uses real SSS or not... but now I'm curious: do you know which commercial programs do use "real" SSS? I see that the image you linked to was made by a researcher with software he wrote, so are there any commercial products that do it the "real" way?

What do you mean for "real" SSS? Maxwell Render from next limit for example is based completely on real beahaviors of material and light interaction... -TOXE

 

Tunesy, I'm talking about what I consider the "big" features, such as displacement mapping. I'm not talking about some of the incredibly lame things that are being served as new features (Fresnel and anisotropic effects: come on, get serious, I can't believe this wasn't supported by Carrara prior to version 5!). Toxe and rendererer, what I see in the pictures displayed as examples of SSS in Carrara 5 don't exhibit any SSS effect, but only basic absorbtion (aka "back scattering"). Real SSS means that the renderer can handle light scattered inside the object in all directions, not just absorbtion. THis is essential to render skin or marble correctly, for instance. So my question is, does C5 really handle SSS like in the picture by Jensen, or is it just a marketing "approximation"?

The statement: "the new features are really only existing plug-ins that have been "included" inside the package." Is not correct, none of those features that you mention came in from "existing plugins" all were develop inhouse by the Eovia development team. The Micro Displacement Mapping does an excellent job supporting Zbrush 16bit displacement maps. Here is a link to show how it works. http://www.eovia3d.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=8774 All the other shader additions: Anisotropic lighting Fresnel Sub-Surface-Scatting etc. Just needed to be standard within the application. Side note: Translucency is coming for the final release as this is just beta. The Poser support is much better than Vues. It has Native poser support. It load PZ3, CR2, etc. Including: Morph targets. Poses, Comforming Clothing so you can do use all of them inside carrara with out having to have Poser installed in your system. New Particle System that can also use objects as particles. A subset of that technology is the surface replicator and the replicator. Any surface or part of an object can be use as a particle emitter. Ambient Oclussion is new. Irradiance mapping truly speeds up GI animation rendering. Support for Matchmoving Software. Support for RLA/RPF for After Effects and Combustion. Advance modeling technology from the Hexagon Engine now in the Vertex Modeler. Something that Vue can't do at all. Re-design User Interface. Re-Desing UI for texture room. Volumetric clouds. and much more. So it isn't just a bunch of plugins added to the application as you mention. Later Ringo

ROFL Ringo, no need to copy-paste the eovia website. I've read it all. And stand by what I said. BTW, saying things like "Poser support is much better than Vue" does sound a bit like a loose statement, esp. considering Carrara 5 doesn't even support Poser 6! I'm not interested in "evangelism". My question isn't about whether Carrara is better than Vue (I wouldn't drop Vue if I got C5 - I'm very happy with it, thank you), but whether SSS is really SSS, or only just absorbtion. That's the only thing that would justify me getting the C5 upgrade.

Petshoo, after your explanation, i think that Carrara don't have a real SSS, i think that is something like poser firefly rendering. BTW, if you need advanced render with "real" interaction, you can buy Maxwell at $ 495 for only a few days:-) This is not "evangelism" (that i'm not interested too)... BTW, if you switch from Vue to Carrara don't expect an incredible better quality, the two rendering engines of both apps are good and at the same quality or almost (don't know wich it's the better, i have the Vue cd still in my Lightwave pack:-P. -TOXE

 

Thanks Toxe. I wouldn't "switch" to Carrara, since I don't believe in there being a "perfect" 3D app. To be honest, I've been rather disapointed with Carrara 4 Pro, but real SSS is something that would have convinced me to upgrade. If it's just simple absorbtion, I'll wait and see. Marketing almost got me; I'm glad I asked :-)

The 3d market is driven by facts, not marketing. We can have almost always the possibility of a trial version, so we can touch with hand. I've made a mistake only one time in the last years, but AAARRGH! 700 dollars in the drain!! -TOXE

 

Hey TOXE, what was that $700 mistake?

I just popped in here to see if this discussion was going on. This looks to be the version that's convinced me to finally buy Carrara after watching it develop for several years now. The lack of support for zBrush displacements and subdivision meshes had mainly held me back. Also, I like that it doesn't just host Poser files, but claims to actually convert them to a native format. I'm very impressed, but I don't use a previous version.

The header on this thread asks if "Carrara 5 - impressive or not? I'm impressed, but I am a long time Carrara user (& a beta tester). Looks like the title should have been "Carrara SSS..... Impressive or not?" I don't know if it is based off the mathematical lighting model you are looking for or not, maybe you can tell from the options shown in the scene cap. Making or breaking the deal based on a single feature does not make much sense to me, but how people spend their hard earned money is not any of my business. I like what they have done with this version. wayne k guam usa

I don't know how exactly the SSS feature works but you can produce an image like this really quickly which you couldn't do before. So , I am happy with this version of Carrara.

There are a couple simple acid tests that Cararra's new SSS could be put to - for instance, render a SSS object, with another object inside it (like the bone within a finger) and see if it occludes the translucency. And I'd love to know if the scattered light will illuminate other objects. Oh, and hi - this is my first post in these forums, though I've followed them for some time. If I'm feeling crazy, I may even upload some artwork to my gallery someday. :)

No word on symeterical for VM or other modeling room in Carrara 5 so I am not impressed at all as a modeling user.

Thanks mmoir and whkguamusa. THat's what I thought - simple absorbtion (and clever marketing). Considering how disapointed I was with C4, I'll hold off for now.

petshoo, absorbtion such as this is regularly referred to as SSS in 3D apps. Most people consider it as such, because true physically correct SSS is extremely slow to calculate. It's not really a novel tactic to advertise it as SSS in my opinion.

Some render engines, like Vray, require you to use GI in order to process physically "correct" SSS. Yet, in the end, only a highly trained eye would notice the difference between real SSS and fake SSS (if it's done right). I don't see the big deal over that really.

Message edited on: 10/30/2005 03:20

Correct SSS is not so slow to render, but it's complex to developp. Which is why it's much easier to do a simple "trick" and call it SSS. The "big deal" is that to render skin, marble and other SSS materials correctly, you do need true SSS. And you don't need such a trained eye to spot the difference. One simply looks a lot better than the other! And if you do animation, the difference simply becomes blatant!

Peshoo, I said I didn't know exactly how SSS is done that doesn't mean it is simple absorption unless you are getting your answer from the screen grab Wayne posted.

"And if you do animation, the difference simply becomes blatant"? ...if you do animation it's a lot less important. If you do stills then there's a stonger arguement for more 'realistic' options. I suppose some people like to put individual pixels under a microscope in an animation, although I personally could care less. But we're beating a dead horse. You've made it clear you don't like Carrara, petshoo. Don't buy it...

Petshoo I have a great answer to your SSS question. The answer comes from Charles Brissat Lead Enginner of Carrara. I asked him if this is what Carrara 5 uses. http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~henrik/papers/bssrdf/ http://graphics.ucsd.edu/~henrik/papers/fast_bssrdf/ His answer is YES!!!!!!!!!!! >>> charles@eovia.com 10/30/2005 3:09 AM >>> The Sub-surface scattering is the exact implementation of those articles. Charles

quote: "The "big deal" is that to render skin, marble and other SSS materials correctly, you do need true SSS. And you don't need such a trained eye to spot the difference. One simply looks a lot better than the other! And if you do animation, the difference simply becomes blatant!"

Really? Well, then I guess Steven Stahlberg's technique for skin is not very good then? He never uses true SSS. He employs clever use of gradient and falloff maps to simulate the effect, and his work on skin is truly groundbreaking.

What application are you using that employs true physically accurate SSS for skin? Even MentalRay's Fastskin SSS shader isn't actually using physically accurate scattering. If you try to use the physically correct SSS shader with mentalray, it's much much slower to render.

Physical accuracy is not really as important in animation as it is in stills, because you don't have the opportunity to scrutinize it. For instance, Radiosity, which is a physically accurate lighting solution, is usually too slow to use in heavily animated scenes, which is why they employ fake tricks like bounce lights and texture baking for such things in production situations. Major studios use AO, which is not physically accurate, for production. Hollywood fakes physical accuracy all the time, and no one really notices.

Message edited on: 10/30/2005 10:29

"You've made it clear you don't like Carrara". All I said is that I'd been very disapointed by Carrara 4, but that true SSS would have made me upgrade immediately. All I've seen until now looks like basic absorbtion, but I'll be glad to be proved wrong. I don't really care about physical accuracy. All I care for is image quality. And again, (sorry to insist), I have seen no example of SSS in Carrara 5 to date (only basic absorbtion).

After looking at the paper by Jensen et al (carefully avoiding all the integrals:-) it would appear that an accurate computation of SSS is beyond the practical capabilities of todays PC's. So everyone uses some approximation. The question is really whether or not you like Carrara's (Jensen's) particular approximation. Not whether or not its "TRUE" SSS. Just my 2 cents.

Sorry, what I meant by "true SSS" is a simulation of what is referred to as multiple-scattering. As I said, I don't care about physical accuracy, but I want to know if the so-called SSS is really SSS (as in multiple-scattering) or just absorbtion. Show me a picture that exhibits mutliple scattering as in the statue above, and I will be happy :-)

Petshoo. See my answer above. The specs to the image that you point is exactly what Carrara 5 use.

...it's pointless, Ringo. He's arguing just for the sake of arguing. He started this thread with a blatantly untrue statement: "seems that most of the new features are really only existing plug-ins that have been "included" inside the package" Then he goes on to "if you do animation, the difference simply becomes blatant" which is just wrong and frankly falls into the category of 'Animation 101'.

Comparing Jensen pg 7 fig 9,b,c with the image posted by petshoo, Jensen's model looks pretty good to me. I'm done....

The implementation of subsurface scattering in Carrara is real sub-surface scattering. As far as I know it is state-of-the-art. It is not a simple absorbtion calculation at all. Of course it is only an approximation like every 3D rendering but that is exactly what 3D rendering is, a simulation... As far as I know the model is used is quite accurate and can be used at a decent speed. Full Monte Carlo integration of subsurface scattering was the old way to do subsurface scattering before more advanced technics appeared. It usually gives the same result (basically you won't see the difference in 99.9% of the cases) and is much much slower (if you like to wait a day for a rendering...). It does assume that the object does not contain another object inside it which is a limitation but from what I have seen a lot of the other implementations have the same limitation. Charles

...very cool. Thanks for the insight, Mr. Brissat.

Yes, sailor_ed, the image I posted is by Jensen - so I guess it makes sense :-) Thanks indeed for the insight, charlesb. THis is very interesting and what I wanted to hear. Sorry that some people here seem to have a problem with anybody asking questions. Sorry I don't share your blind enthusiasm; as I said several times, I was very disapointed with Carrara 4 and SSS is the only thing of real interest to me in C5.

...I deleted my last post because it was probably a little too pointed, although it was quite accurate ;) Sorry.

"If only end-users with highly trained eyes also came with highly trained tongues." LOL...no user manual for that ;)Gotta get a thicker skin. Thanks for the info charlesb....it is real important to get details...I know betas gotta get done, but people are curious. Which is always good.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

I downloaded the C5Pro beta yesterday. I have been using Carrara from Ray Dream days (though I used trueSpace more -- hardly used Ray Dream was too clunky).

Carrara 5 Pro, so far, is the best upgrade ever for this product. Going from rev. 3 to 4 was a bit of a disappointment for me, but this version is worth it!

Carrara's equivalent to V5I ecosystems (which I purchased 7 months ago), surface replicator, has some real advantages. For example, you can create 3D "shadow instances" (so to speak), of objects, or real instances that can be manipulated. If you have a close-in scene with a lush background, you can populate the background with thousands of shadow 3D objects to save resources. You can then populate the close-in area with true instances that can be precisely manipulated (you can convert existing shadow 3D objects to real instances).

Im not trying to initiate some Carrara vs. V5I debate, but as an all around application, Carrara 5 Pro beats V5I hands down! (BTW, Im writing this on my 3 GHz PC as my other workstations are each rendering large V5I files).

Carraras Poser imports are superior to V5I, and while Carraras rendering engine has less minute user control, it is much easier to achieve a quality render. I spent 3 days screwing around trying to get a decent 6000 X 3300 pix render with V5I, and it was not a huge file! Vues render to disk is not very good. My Windows Task Manager would show an initial resource load of ~ 225 MByte. This would (over about an 8 hour period) balloon up to ~1.95 GByte then V5I would simply go away without any fanfare! I was not setting the render option anywhere near the max.

It is true that some of the added features were available as plug-ins, and I have all of the major ones. But Eovia integrated them in, and greatly improved their functionality, while using fewer resources.

I wont go into more, but Carrara 5 Pro seems much closer to a high-end application than rev. 4, and the new interface is almost a piece of art!

After about 5 hours of playing with the beta, no crashes!

Message edited on: 10/30/2005 18:09

Thanks for that information. I was kinda making the comparison, as I think others were because Vue is popular and I think they are close in some ways feature and price-wise. I think it also helps to compare to what you know. Like reading reviews. If anyone should know carrara it should be the users in the forums...that's what I like about the forums here. I have always found carrara to be stable, which is definitely important.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

LCBoliou, Can you tell me what if any changes have been made in regard to procedural options, since the material editor has been changed?

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

The organization of the new material editor kind of threw me off a bit. Not 'cause it is bad, but because it is quite (organizationally) changed. I haven't spent much time with it yet (I don't have the install on this box -- my other 2, with C5Pro installed are busy with V5I scenes!) The functionality seems pretty much the same, however?

I do know that Carrara now has true displacement textures. I use the Anything Grooves plug-in, and it does the same thing; however as I previously stated, the full integration of the feature seems much better than the plug-in, and I suspect the resource efficiency of the Eovia implementation will be much better.

One thing charlesb might comment on, is whether or not the surface replicator hooks in to the Carrara plant editor to generate a random tweak for each created object instance? This would produce the random individual variations within a Carrara plant species when populating instances. I cant check that right now, and all my playing around with this tool involved rotation and scale variation should have just replicated some trees without the rotation & scaling changes would have my answer.

As I get more first hand experience/information, I'll pass it on.

Message edited on: 10/30/2005 20:04

I bought the upgrade, downloaded it and have to echo the same as LCBoliou...Carrara 5 Pro, so far, is the best upgrade ever for this product. As for the comment "and the new interface is almost a piece of art!" ..."almost" would be the key word here. I still dislike the navigation tools. That darn zoom, pan, etc... are not as fluid to use as the ones in other apps like C4D or LW. If they would just change that I would really be a happy camper. Ok I said my peace. Off now to enjoy C5.

Hi, the surface replicator create identical instances of trees. The reason is that this way you can instantiate 10,000 tree without using 10,000 times more memory. However you use several different trees with the replicator (3 or 4 for instance) and it will distribute them randomly. It also can change the scale of the trees slightly. This is enough to create something not to repetitive. Charles

What do you think is so different in the way camera manipulations work in Carrara and Cinema 4D or LW ? What is a problem for you exactly ? Charles

I thought this was very nice replicator example. Looks believable. http://www.eovia3d.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=388 LCBoliou, thanks...I was hoping for more procedural functions and curious about any other possible changes.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

I like Carrara's camera panning icon for up/down/left/right. It moves the camera the way I think it should move. Not backwards the way Hexagon's panning icon moves the camera.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Yeah some apps...do a push/pull thing(kinda opposite the way I want to go). I think carrara's are more intuitive for me too.Interesting that it is diff in hex tho. I haven't tried it yet.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

In Hexagon, as long as I keep thinking that I'm pulling down on a rope in order to raise a statue I'm carving higher off the ground, I can handle using its Pan Mode icon. But it's still a pain though because left/right directions are backasswards.

Message edited on: 10/31/2005 00:04

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

"The organization of the new material editor kind of threw me off a bit. Not 'cause it is bad, but because it is quite (organizationally) changed. The functionality seems pretty much the same, however?" Understandable. A much more efficient layout. If you work with complex textures you will see the benefit. Lots of simple changes. Control of the raydepth, etc within each texture. Individual shaders can be dragged and dropped into shading domains (see properties tray in texture room, they also can be dragged and dropped with highlighted selection in the assembly room as well) Copy and paste functionality. Real fresnel effect intergrated in textures. Etc. etc. "the new features are really only existing plug-ins that have been "included" inside the package." I think that comment needs more support to it. "I still dislike the navigation tools." The three mouse button setup? Really I'm not seeing a difference in functionality? Perhaps if you explained more. "Sorry I don't share your blind enthusiasm; as I said several times, I was very disapointed with Carrara 4 and SSS is the only thing of real interest to me in C5." I find that comment a bit rude. We aren't having "blind enthusiasm" we just like the new features that are available. I'd think true fresnel, SSS, (possibly translucency shading), ambient occlusion, true microdisplacment (ie. using 16 bit maps), true ansiotropic lighting, irradiance maps..etc might be of interest to you. But if its all about SSS...um ok. scratches head Odd you are so focused on the one feature. A feature that really isn't all that necessary in most renders. Guess you render a lot of milk and candle scenes.

Here is my version of Sub-Surface-Scatting, Indirect Lighting using Photon mapping, Caustics, Fresnel Effect. Sense Carrara 5 uses technology from: Henrik Wann Jensen, that is Photon Mapping with is better than radiosity and now the Sub-Surface-Scatting from the same papers. Ringo

nice. I mentioned radiosity in vue because some people prefer having the option. A scripting language would be nice tho. Carrara is easy to use and quick at most things, but more duplication and automation would be very helpful. It's nice too that there is a batch option, as well as network rendering.Cararra is def a good renderer.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

"I already own Vue 5 Infinite, and the "surface replicator" thing looks like a pale imitation of the Vue EcoSystems." From my experimentation with ecosystems I was not that impressed its just a hyped up version of replica (http://www.inagoni.com). I got to thinking the only thing that beats out Carrara's implementation is the ability to say place a rock and have the replication intelligently avoid the rock. This is easy to do using the Proximity shader. http://www.des-web.net/html/proximity.html

Well, if folks accept the idea that a PC can auto-replicate it's way to making art, then we might all as well pack up our art tool boxes and head back to the caves in France. There we can start back on the wall paintings do some real art.

I've owned Vue5I for about 7 months now, and it is probably better at doing pure landscape work; however, after playing with Carrara's surface replicator I'd say that it will work fine for most landscape art. Vue does created unique individuals when it does its ecosystems. I really dont think it would take that much more resources for Carrara to do the same?

To compare Carrara to Vue is a bit...useless, as Carrara's overall capabilities leave Vue way behind. I am very disappointed with e-on's marketing, as Vue5I is likely one of the most undeveloped 3D applications ever released in recent history. It was really a beta, not a well beta tested product when it was released! I think about 12 patches were released over a 5 month period!

I've been hammering Carrara5 most of today, and I only got one exception (don't really know what I did) but the program did not crash, and exhibited no outlandish behavior afterwards. That's damn good for a beta!

My only complaint (which has been one for some time) is Carrara's poor implementation of visible, volumetric lighting with shadows. They won't stream through glass! The light passes through, but the nice foggy beams stop cold. Also, the color of the glass (or other transparent material) is not picked up and transmitted beyond the, glass. trueSpace excels at this, and even Vue5I will do it, but for some reason, Eovia lets this one get through revision after revision?

Sure, I can remove window panes, so (as an example) the multi-pane windows will cast a nice shadowed spray of foggy light, but that is cheesy!

So, when I need that kind of scene, I go to trueSpace, or model in Cararra, and import to Vue.

If someone at Eovia is reading this give us some good realistic volumetric, visible, foggy particulate laden lights! Do this before C5Pro hits the streets. This tired spotlight (and other light effects as well) has been pretty much unchanged from the old RD days!

So far, this is my only real complaint with C5Pro, and it has been ongoing since Carrara 2. If someone can enlighten me (no pun intended) concerning some possible ignorance that I posses? (And yes, all the requisite light rendering functions are active).

Ringo commment about symmeterical modeling for Carrara please. Thanks

Ringo commment about symmeterical modeling for Carrara please. Yeah Ringo, stop holding out on us and start talking. :>) wayne k guam usa

Quote :My only complaint (which has been one for some time) is Carrara's poor implementation of visible, volumetric lighting with shadows. They won't stream through glass! The light passes through, but the nice foggy beams stop cold. Also, the color of the glass (or other transparent material) is not picked up and transmitted beyond the, glass. trueSpace excels at this, and even Vue5I will do it, but for some reason, Eovia lets this one get through revision after revision? If someone at Eovia is reading this give us some good realistic volumetric, visible, foggy particulate laden lights! Do this before C5Pro hits the streets. This tired spotlight (and other light effects as well) has been pretty much unchanged from the old RD days! No offense to Gweb as he might a legit complaint(but I've seen this complaint/request umpteen times already). That said, I'd like to more about the above quote. The more info that is available, the easier it for future potential customers to decide. I hope I'm not being rude, I don't mean to be, I'm just more interested in things like this. The guts so to speak. Thanks :)

Gweb, didn't Bob Stockwell from Eovia specifically say no symmetrical modeling this time? How is Ringo, who doesn't work for Eovia, gonna help with that? Sorry, if I am missing something. I would like it too, but doesn't look like it is going to be there.I would be also interested in the answer to the above question. I am going to see...Maybe you have to use anything glows for this. I thought carrara would do this.

Message edited on: 11/01/2005 16:55

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

Isn't the picture above doing what you described. There are some in the backroom under articles that may also be similiar. I think I see what you are saying, but an example would help.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

Shonner: I am not type of a member who likes to have gallery here. Ren Mem: I just know Ringo is well known members who have alot of information on Carrara product and may have close relationship with Eovia team. Didnt anyone notice someone from Eovia team post thread in Renderosity? dlk30341: Yes my request information on symmetery function is reasonable and it would help me decide to purchase upgrade. Unfortunately, as a modeling user, I can careless about new implementatiions that was posted in C5 announcement. I am waiting to hear a comment from Eovia on symmeterical function that I asked for many years since RDS era. ;)

Shonner: you may look for threads with pics I posted. Theyu are only ones I would post to help other members to make complex modeling possible.

Gweb, it's a reasonable request, but I think they answered it. "Symmetry is not planned for the Carrara 5 release. It is available in the Eovia Hexagon modeler." Bob Stockwell Director, Sales and Marketing Eovia Corp. The rendering aspects in carrara are very important I think because that is the main reason you would buy the product.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

What do you mean that you think they answered it? Where did you find this quote from? "Symmetry is not planned for the Carrara 5 release. It is available in the Eovia Hexagon modeler." Bob Stockwell Director, Sales and Marketing Eovia Corp. If that is the truth then Carrara is not a worthy piece of modeler software at all then why should it have VM and some other cutie modeling rooms inside Carrara anyways? I asked for symmetry since RDS and they knew our needs. I am not reallly happpy to learn that I have to deal with export and import function between Hexagon and Carrara, it is a waste of time for mass models.

GWeb. He posted that message to you last week. :-) No symmetrical modeling for this version of the VM. Pascal Doux the engineer behind the new Vertex Modeler and the Lead Engineer of Hexagon said that not in this version but in a future version as in C6. Ringo

Regarding the light thru colored glass issue...are we really talking about translucency? That is supposed to make it in c5. That w/ sss and fresnel. I would like to see some examples of this issue and solution. Here is a quick example in vue, but it may not be showing exactly what you were describing dlk30341. There are many things about the way the shaders work in carrara I don't fully understand...they are unique and I only discovered the program a couple months ago.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

Ringo I would buy symetery plug-in for Carrara the same price of Hexagon. Geez They are so sick developers for not including symetery in Carrara modeling room. They want us to be insane.

Yes Gweb, that was in the c5 announcement thread. I am not saying the modeling isn't important, just that it isn't as much as rendering...people usually buy these programs w/ rendering in mind some have almost no modeling.Modeling programs often don't have good rendering either. Just the way it is.To get it all there are other more costly programs.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

Symmetry is so simple to make, they need to set up database system to make symmetry for points to be on exact duplicated side or multiple sides. I do not see a good reason why they should not implement symmetry in Carrara.

"The light passes through, but the nice foggy beams stop cold. Also, the color of the glass (or other transparent material) is not picked up and transmitted beyond the, glass." This is not true. Since the implementation of raytraced soft shadows this has not been an issue. Make sure light through transparency is checked and that the shader of the object in question has a color defining its transparency channel.

Nice example Brian. wayne k guam usa By the way, did you use symmetrical modeling to make those 3 spheres?

"My only complaint (which has been one for some time) is Carrara's poor implementation of visible, volumetric lighting with shadows. They won't stream through glass! The light passes through, but the nice foggy beams stop cold." This is true. The only way around this is to deselect cast shadows on the glass object. Which in many times this will work, but I realize that their are many cases where it won't.

So, why don't we presently have a GWeb forum, just to deal with Gweb's insatiable need for symmetrical modelling...?

Jeepers Crimminy...

Somebody give this boy some symmetry! ditto Jeepers Crimminy...

"Symmetry is so simple to make, they need to set up database system to make symmetry for points to be on exact duplicated side or multiple sides." In that case, grab a C++ compiler, write a plugin, sell it and become rich. :)

Gweb...are you sane? :-) Seriously First was the "Shift" key deal in the VM. It was the only thing that you wanted change in the VM. So now they add a new engine that will continue to be develop and you are not happy. Well live with it. You have Hexagon. Believe me I wanted other stuff in the VM but I"m very happy with what they have done in the amount of time they had. You can't have it all in one huge upgrade. Ringo

"This is true. The only way around this is to deselect cast shadows on the glass object. Which in many times this will work, but I realize that their are many cases where it won't."

Problem with that solution is then the light cones become super XRays beams, and will pass through about anything. I didn't even get into photon attenuation.

Of couse the problem is that the visible (light cones) are really post rendering effects, not raytraced effects.

The above example does not employ the visible light cone with particle/shadow effects. But certainly is a good example of raytraced light effects.

BTW, I compared "Anything Groves" and C5P's displacement texturing on identical objects/textures. Carrara's native displacement maps are much quicker and resource efficient.

LOL of all posts!! :D RINGO: Shift key is diease key!! I can not do symmetery on every polygon!! I am using TabletPC and I have problem with keys. ZBrush is real nice for TabletPC but it is not polygon modeler app. There is never a single reason to use keyboard for 3D interface! I do not like to write obj file name for import and export function to Carrara. I want most things done in it. I can not think of anything I would want to model in Carrara without symmetery. It is so painful to model with shift key to mirror every polygon. I would like to see Carrara use eraser function for eraseable pen. I hope it will be implemented in C6. I still think Eovia should implement symmetry in Carrara since version 3 era.

Stewer: "In that case, grab a C++ compiler, write a plugin, sell it and become rich. :)" I would but Eovia would not release SDK for VM or Spline room. So... I do not have time to make a new modeler room from scratch.

This is why I wanted a specific example. Pics help. So is there a viable way around this..Is this still an issue? Sounds like it.Colored shadows..is easy enough to understand, but what about colored beams...can you use a particle shader?

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

Hey LCBoliou, got an example from vue or truespace of the volumetric light effect? Are you using the default renderer in TS or the nicer plugin.Thanks.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

"Problem with that solution is then the light cones become super XRays beams, and will pass through about anything. I didn't even get into photon attenuation. Of couse the problem is that the visible (light cones) are really post rendering effects, not raytraced effects." Agreed. Its something that should be fixed. Perhaps C6. Though I have a extensive list for C6.

GWeb, i agree with some of your critics... the reasons why i'll not buy this version of carrara (and probably also the next releases at this point) is that the develop is too much slow, not enough plug ins, no scripting, no advanced technology. I have wait years to see at least symmetry in the VM or a decent UV editor. I think that is absurd that i need to wait the years 2007 to have this basic features in a 3D software. With the release 5 we can have the optional but not the essential once again. -TOXE

 

Maybe we can ask for a symmetrical lighting model in C6 wayne k guam usa

Yes, we can but we'll see it for sure in Carrara 10 EXOT-

 

Well if I can do all the things that Carrara5 can do at the very highest quality possible---BEFORE I DIE---I will be a very happy ghost to you all!

bwtr

TOXE, just out of curiosity...what do you prefer to use?

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

Now Lightwave as main software, Wings and Zbrush for modeling, SolidThinking for NURBS and engineering, Maxwell Render for rendering. And of course Carrara for other little things and because i've used it for many years and i have millions of file in my HD! -TOXE

 

Millions of file. OUCH!.. ;)

TOXE: What are your opinions on Lightwave. How was the transition from Carrara to Lightwave? You were one of the Carrara super-users, so it would be interesting to hear your point of view. Thanks.

Hi vinividivinci, thanks for the "super-user";-) This is the forum of Carrara, so i don't want to compare different softwares from different software houses. We'll talk about it in a private conversation if you want... BTW, the transition is very hard, but i need to do it now because i'm still enough young to crash my head on my desk. -TOXE

 

GWeb- Notice... a 'super-user' uses 6 (count them 6!) programs to get done what he needs/wants to. Never mind the post-proccessing with After Effects/Photoshop/Flash/Name-your-favorite-here. Check out the workflows at ANY of the 'pro' animation/3D houses out there... they ALL use multiple programs, sometimes writing their own, to get the job done. Talk about a 'standard of the industry'! NO software will be all things to all people. If they were, then we would all be clones instead of people. ;) AND... for the record... I 3rd the 'Jeepers Crimminy!' We ALL know how you feel about Carrara... so why don't you just leave us alone about it? Hmmmmm? (This has been a public service announcment.) :D

Bluetone: I am one of the super-users in my opinion. I have some high end apps too and I hate to use them for different needs. I changed my nick sometimes and old folks might not know me. I have been here more than 6 years. I am not heavy posters like others. I have been so busy with my life and projects. Yep I am Jeepers Crimminy :D Thanks for the sympathy on problems with Carrara. Sometimes it is healthy to put coals together and closer to make it hotter to get warmer for us. Adobe is just other app for different purpose unlike the basic essential tools I requested to implement for Carrara. Symmetry is one of the basic essential tools for modeling because everything in world is symmetrical. Who likes to hit shift key on every polygons? Hands up, anyone?

Per ren_mem's request: "Hey LCBoliou, got an example from vue or truespace of the volumetric light effect? Are you using the default renderer in TS or the nicer plugin.Thanks." Here is a trueSpace 6.6 render with the raytraced light cone. I didn't turn all the material/light features on, in order to emphasize the obvious. My wish is for Eovia to give Carrara the same ability. I placed vertical slats in a green colored transparent material, to simulate a green colored glass. Note how the beams go through the material, are attenuated, and pick up the material color.

Kool renderer. I noticed that the stripes is rotated, any idea how it did that?

I will take the edge and surface tools in the Pro version over built in symmetry any day. I have used Lightwave for 7 years now, we are just getting edges. I believe Carrara is quickly gaining ground on the big boys. Will it ever supplant them? Probably not. But it is a great package for the money. Less so now considering the drop in price for other apps, but still a lot of bang for the buck. Of course my needs are completely different than the next person. Carrara has some great output as far as rendering goes. The animation tools are nowhere near as complete as my "other" app. However, the majority of my work is either logo work for commercials or instructional type work for products. Carrara is superb for these. But I could never learn to like the modeler. With these added features I am ready to jump back in. I can import my LW objects now. I could have in C4 Pro, but this upgrade makes more sense to me than C4 Pro did to me last year. I am sorry that "your" most wanted feature didnt make it in. I have some features that I would like to see implemented as well. Such as builtin texture coordinates without having to resort to a plugin. This would allow easy animated procedural textures, which are very powerful. I use them in my "other" app all the time. The way I see it is you have two choices. Either accept that symmetry is not there or go with a different product. You mention high end apps, perhaps that would be the best way to go. Obviously Eovia didnt think symmetry was important enough to warrant being included with Carrara. But if the feature is that important to you, I would suggest looking elsewhere for now. I can say this. The choices available now are mind bending when you look at the way things were just a few years ago. It is an embarassment of riches so to speak. Never before has so much power been accesible by so many. Not just in Carrara but in all 3D apps. All at a cost far less than what it used to be. I started with Infini-D and Strata. To think how far 3D has come in just 10 years. We all have to make choices. You need to decide if Carrara's other strengths are enough for you to buy the upgrade. For me they are. I sat out last year. But this year it is a no brainer. One job will pay for the cost many times over. But if I wasnt satisfied with the upgrade and what I thought it should include, well I wouldnt buy it. Plain and simple. At the same time I would not spend time complaining about the product not having such and such feature. Because there are too many choices out there and I am not locked in to any company. If I were a hobbyist perhaps my thinking would be different. Of course using Lightwave I guess the question is why Carrara? Well, for me Carrara's GI solution works great. I also do architectural renderings on a regular basis. LW has GI as welll obviously. But Carrara to me seems much quicker. LW uses either interpolated background or Monte Carlo which is very slow. Photon mapping seems to me a better solution. Other than that, well I have to say that I like smaller companies. I saw in the beta last year Eovia's willingness to listen to customers. That means a lot. I realise that they havent listened to you, dont know what to say there. But imagine this. In Lightwave there is one, yes one undo in Layout. But in Modeler they are limited by memory only. So if you think Eovia is bad about not listening to customers, you might think about that. We have asked for years for multiple undo's. Alright, off the soapbox now. Good luck in your decision.

Well spoken, dbigers.

Actually, I rotated the scene to offer a view of the 3D shadow generating slats. The render was true to light physics -- the stripes are correctly oriented to the slats. A bit of optical illusion -- I guess? :)

dbigers: "It is an embarrassment of riches so to speak." You may consider me as one of the riches. The products I have was for my investment and that is the way of life making money. I can't live with just a milk and bread. I considered Carrara as a good product and want to invest my time on it rather than spend my time on other apps. No doubt that everyone likes Carrara's interface. I may like it and I do not need derogatory comments from users about what apps I should use because it crosses my boundary. Modeling rooms are included in Carrara and it really need basic essential tools for me to be able to use Carrara more than my other apps. It is absolutely no excuse for Eovia not to include symmetry in VM room, it is really simple and essential tool for modeling. They are using forks behind our back to buy Carrara 5 with useless modeling room. LCBoliou: Goood to know that it uses light physics!! :)

GWeb: Umm...I think maybe you misinterpreted dbiger's theme? No single application holds the key to some ultimate door of the 3D world. This latest incarnation of Carrara is excellent. However, I also use Vue5I, Ts 6.6, Poser 5 & 6, & Bryce -- not to mention a few 2D applications. Eovia targets Carrara Pro as an all-around 3D app, and it is possibly the best 3D app for general use for the $$, but? For example, I use a plug-in in one of my other apps that generates a very cool noise for meshes. I can make really realistic distressed objects (like old lumber) with this plug-in. The noise plug-in that comes with Carrara just cant equal this effect. Perhaps the new displacement ability within C5Pro can do this, but so far my tests have not borne this out? If Eovia added all the features of Hexagon into Carrara, then Carraras modeling complexity maybe turns off a lot of folks looking for that general use category. Also, the modeling focused folks lose Hexagon, since Eovia now would have little use for supporting a redundant set of complex code. I personally think Carrara5 Pro is pushing into the big-boys territory, and will cause prices to fall a bit more in that professional application area. All this is good for us!

I hold Eovia responsible for not including Symmetry in Carrara modeling room!! :P

Not sure if that was directed at me, but my post was not meant to be derogatory. If it appears that way I apologise. All I am saying is that if it is a deal breaker for you by not having symmetry then your time would be best put to use on other apps since it doesnt appear that it will. I am sorry if that sounds derogatory. It is not meant to be that way. I am looking at it from a standpoint of time and money, both of which are important to all of us. If there is a feature that I find absolutely critical and it isnt in a particular app, I will buy something else(money), or determine if there are ways to work around(time). I hope it is clear that I am not criticising the fact that you consider Symmetry to be important. Each of us are different and have our own desires. I am simply saying that it appears from the beta testers and Eovia themselves that it isnt going to be in Carrara and that the only decision now is to stay with Carrara and hope for the next version or get something else. It is an important decision I am sure. Learning new software is rarely fun. As before, best of luck.

dbigers: I always try not to be direct to anyone here. So in my opinion Carrara with the price is not deal breaker. Import and export is the most painful for serious animators who may have many models. It takes up spaces on hard driver, time consuming to make file names, browse for specific objs to import into scene, and import compatibility. That is a real problem with Carrara that it do not have simple symmetry tool for modeling users to be able to make everything in the scene. It is hard to compare pros and cons with import/export and shift key for symmetry. Frankly Eovia know how to make symmetry, so it is absoltely no excuse for them not to implement it in Carrara VM room. I am not looking into Hexagon or other apps because I considers it waste of time to do with import and export process.

I want to add something for u guys to look at 1) Make a complete symmetry model export it into object with a file name. 2) Import symmetry model, make some detail work on it, export it into obj again with new file name. 3) Import the obj back in and make animation with it. Do you have any idea how much time it would take for those process on every model? Do you know how long it would take if a obj file have more than a million polygons? OUCH!

LOL!!

Hey Carrara 5 beta testers:

Can you apply little aura with SSS or transcluent?

Is 3D Aura improved in anyway?

Do Carrara5 have new Aura node in shader room instead of using glow shader? (this is important part because glow can be very distrubing when applying aura on)

Is photon function implemented with Aura effect? (like glow but absent of it on the map for better shader control)

Message edited on: 11/02/2005 15:43

...or letting light cones with particle interactions get through the windows...

GWeb, I have to admit that I would much prefer eovia to focus the development of Carrara on improving existing tools and adding much needed features (such as symmetrical modeling), rather than add stuff that we don't really need. For instance, I don't care for the "nature" features, I already have Vue and I'm very happy with it - thank you. Why eovia would spend so much development effort on stuff like this is beyond me. The funny part is that it's reasonable to expect a new version of Vue anytime soon, which will probably put C5 to shame in that respect. In the mean time, we have to wait for much needed improvements. What a waste... As you say, dbigers, no application does it all. I think it's much better to be good at what you do, rather than average at a lot of stuff. SSS in C5 looks interesting, but I'm gonna wait for the trial version before I shell out for this puppy. Just my two cents.

I think most agree obj import/export is a pain. It is slow. Maybe in hex they can have an easier way to get the model in carrara. However,if they won't do it they won't. I am sure it is all by choice...not like they CAN'T do it. C5 is lacking, but it is much better than 4. The way to show what you think about a product is to not buy it. For me I do not think the pro version is really a pro app at all, but 4 was worse. For some those unique file supports maybe important to them, like matchmover. For me the volumetric effect listed above is important and better texturing/mapping, baking and normal map. Not that sym modeling isn't. It does have plugins...tho no scripting...which can be very helpful. I would also like to see if the displacement map issue is just a bug or a misunderstanding of the way it works. Carrara has a good interface tho and performance...TS is cool app, but HORRID interface. If you use the KB...I suppose it is manageable.It's like a bad shareware app.I also was shocked when I found out about only 1 undo level in LW...was looking recently. How crazy is that. LCBoliou thanks. Are you using ipak w/ TS? That is what I thought you meant, but pictures...you know. Like stain glass interior. I was not aware of this.I would send both the displacement issue and the lighting request to someone.I think the older things should be updated, as well before adding new...I believe this for all sw.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

Petshoo, probably best that you do wait for the trial version to see if it will suit your needs. Not all Carrara users also own Vue, so Eovia may be trying to address those users who may be like GWeb, and want to do as much as possible in a single application. If you take a good look at what has been worked on I think that you will find that many of the things addressed in V5 are things that have been asked for over and over by the user base on lists and forums all over the web. They took quite a few of them off the "to be done" list. Did they get them all? No of course not, no single app or version is going to satisfy everyone. The jump from 4 to 5 looks like a good one to me and when the trial comes out everyone can decide for themselves without having to buy it first. wayne k guam usa

Wayne: I think Eovia is more focused on competition against other app like Vue. They probably look at user's wish list as the least priority for example symmetry modeling function. I have a feeling that they did not realize that our wish list can be more marketable along with their current new features combined. FYI I asked for symmmetry since RDS4, RDS 5/5.5, CS1/1.1, skipped to CS3 and still whining. I refused to buy C4 becayse symmetry is still not implemented. If Vue or other apps come up with other new features. Eovia probably will ignore our wish list again.

Well I own both Vue5I AND Carrara, and I'll say that after 7 months of HARD use, I appreciate Carrara's landscape ability -- AND STABILIY. The quality of rendering in Vue, when using fine-scaled textures is grainy. To get out the grainy renders, you need to bump up the render object & texture antialiasing settings to levels that make a snail rendering my work look fast!

I'm presently doing a render in C5Pro that Vue chokes & dies on! And the tree leaves & needles (on pines) in Carrara are poly based, not mapped 2D planes like Vue's. Up close, the Carrara trees look better -- I got proof! Also, Carrara's tree editor can create original species, vs Vue's limitations to only modify existing ones. Since C5Pro's plant editor now allows immediate visual feedback when modifying plants, it is now much better than the Vue implementation.

Want me to go on...?

LCBoliou: Please dont go on.

Vue is slight unique app than Carrara. I like the plant dynamics in Vue side with wind effect. Carrara plants is solid and still. I don't think C5 will have dynamic plant like in Vue. So... Please dont address Vue here but you may talk about tools that is missing in Carrara that you think Eovia should implement. I am not up to hear about application vs application this forum. I get annoyed. X-)

Message edited on: 11/02/2005 17:56

You get annoyed far too easily GWeb! My comment was a response to a comment concerning VUE-like features in Carrara, and why someone opined that they are not needed which I disagree with. 3D application comparisons are a good way to discover features from other applications that prove it can be done for Carrara. What I would not expect in a Carrara forum, would to have someone run-down Carrara in comparing it to another application. I really don't live in a hard vacuum so perhaps you might simply skip on to the next comment if you get annoyed? The act of reading is, after all a voluntary one.

GWeb reminds me of a neighbor's smoke detector low-battery signal chirp going off every two minutes that they refuse to get new batteries for.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

LOL!

LOL hehe Shonner: you sounded like one of my neighbor, is that you?

LCBoliou: My apologize that I offended you in anyway. I have been to forums and get tired of reading posts about application vs application. I always want to read something relevant than this.

Well, It depends on how you read app vs app. If you look at it as competition or judgement then I guess that would be annoying. I like the comparisons because it helps you understand things relative to other apps and what you know.This is sw not a person w/ feelings :). People should be able to discuss what they want at long as they can back it up and aren't trying to be rude. Thanks LCBoliou...I think that is very interesting to know how well it renders such things.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

"This is the forum of Carrara, so i don't want to compare different softwares from different software houses." Toxe: I understand completely and salute your discretion. Cheers.

GWeb, no offense taken. This is a Carrara Forum, and I am having great fun with the C5Pro beta. My comments relative to Vue were based on my very unhappy, love/hate relationship with e-on's flagship product. This Carrara beta release is very stable! It looks like we can look forward to a rock-solid final product. The ability to precisely populate objects on a terrain is remarkable. The vertex modeler is much better and the edge tools and bevel are quite cool. You know the nice tutorial we have here on making the gear? Well such objects are now really easy to do by replicating gear teeth on a disk. After playing around with the materials editor, I can say that it is way ahead of C4Pro! Drag & drop, copy & paste. At this point I would recommend C5Pro for anyone wanting to do low-medium, and some high level 3D modeling/landscaping/architecture/rendering. And yes, a symmetrical modeling tool would be nice.

Could someone either point to the locale over at Eovia(been searching but can't find) or tell me which of the plugins are included in the Pro version(version5)/old ones that have been condensed into it. I don't want to make duplicate purchases :) TIA

TIA,

For DCG products, I wouldn't buy Anything Grooves if you plan on moving to C5, it does some things better than C5 displacement but for most users it's probably not worth getting extra. If you're only using Anything Grows for static tip objects kinds of effects, the Carrara 5 replication tools are a better choice. If you want to animate the tip movement, orientation, fur, hair, etc. it's still a handy tool.

Regards,
Eric Winemiller
Digital Carvers Guild
Plug-ins for Carrara
http://digitalcarversguild.com

Eric Winemiller
Digital Carvers Guild
Carrara and LightWave plug-ins

Thanks for the info :)

Hi Debby, Here is some info. Hope it helps you out a bit? Web site has link to beta plug-ins: http://www.digitalcarversguild.com/ I would hold-off on purchasing Anything Grooves, as C5Pro has displacement maps that work very well. The rest of the DCG plug-ins are still (I think) viable, but I would hold-off until C5Pro soaks awhile. Anything Grows is good for a lot of things not covered in C5Pro (like growing a grass base on terrain, or maybe a grass plug to be distributed by the C5Pro surface replicator -- not to mention creating fur and hair). Most of DCGs stuff is very good, and they have good support (they already have their C5Pro beta plug-ins for users to download). http://www.inagoni.com/news.php I have a few from these folks, and they are good. They have also made their beta plug-ins available (except for Deeper, and Architools which I use in C4Pro is great for rapidly building your own houses etc.). I think you really want Veloute? It works great with C5Pros displacement mapping -- I've tried it. Hold-off on Replica for obvious reasons, and except for Veloute, I would not purchase any others right now. Inagoni beta plug-ins: http://julien.chaplier.free.fr/DownloadLink/C5BetaPlugins.zip

Thanks :)Everyone here has been a big help :)

LCBoliou if you use Baker and deeper what is the diff in the normal map support of each? There is a baker demo, but not deeper. Thanks.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

Well I went ahead and upgraded to C5 Pro. Carrara ROCKS!! The new additions to the modeler are welcome. I can actually get some stuff out of it now. I was planning to continue to use LW to model and render in Carrara. Now I am not sure. Looks as if Carrara can easily handle my needs now. The manipulators are very helpful in moving and positioning objects. Before I always ended up grabbing the wrong item, especially in the VM. I think they grabbed the most useful stuff from Hexagon. Obviously they couldnt include it all. But for my modeling needs they got it right and what is included is very welcome. The surface replicator works great. Volumetric clouds do as well. They are simply beautiful. I also like the new design of the texturing room. Much more logical it seems and the filtering of simple shaders works great to reduce clutter on the screen. Lightwave import works great as long as I make sure and import with the same smoothing settings as Lightwave. Around 89.53 if I remember correctly. Displacement mapping works great also. I could go on and on. Suffice it to say, if you skipped the C4 upgrade, you owe it to yourself to get in on this update. Even the standard update at $99 offers a lot. Quite a few of the C4Pro features are in C5 Standard. Including sound and Lightwave import. I remain impressed with Carrara's GI implementation. Shonner's recent Kitchen images are testament to the GI solution in Carrara. OPEN GL performance is noticably better on my system now. At the risk of sounding like an advertisement I will say that if you are already comfortable with Carrara, this upgrade is a no brainer. Assuming you can swing it financially. There have been times over the past 2 years that I could have used the Volumetric clouds. That alone could have easily enhanced several animations I did for a local company. The effect is good enough that I could have easily charged more on those animations. Ok, as you can tell I really like this upgrade. Best of luck to those trying to decide. Hopefully once a demo is released those trying to decide can make a more informed decision. I know after paying for the upgrade and I was waiting for the download to finish there were some moments where I thought to myself that I may have made a mistake. A few minutes in the modeler and those thoughts went away. Now a disclaimer. Yes I use Lightwave. I have used it for several years going back to version 5.6. Realistically there isnt much you cant do with it. However, for my own needs Carrara "now" works quite nicely. I say "now" because before I just could not get my head into the modeling process within the VM. Also, "my needs" might be quite different from someone else's. 85% of my work is animated logo's for local TV advertisers and some corporate ID work. Carrara has always had great looking output, now I feel comfortable modeling in it also. The other 15% of my work is a mix of landscape and architectural rendering. Also, keep in mind I do not rely on this to eat. I have a "regular" job. This is all freelance, although it is on a fairly regular basis. I like the direction Carrara is heading. I also like the program itself. It is a pleasure to work with--keeping in mind what I use it for of course. I wanted to make this switch last year when I bought C3 Studio. But I could never implement C3 in my work because of difficulties I had in the VM. I know others have produced great work in the old VM. I was not one of them. Right now I am using Lightwave 7.5. For me to upgrade now would be $399. There are some nice features in the latest upgrade. I would also get a "free" upgrade to Version 9 when it is released. I guess my heart just isnt in it because I am not excited at all about upgrading Lightwave. Especially for $399 a pop each time. Actually that is not bad considering what the upgrades cost in the past. But when I think about the lack of multiple undo's in Layout that have existed since the program came out it bothers me. I can and do get by without multiple undo's, but what bothers me is that the developers failed to listen to customers for so many years on such a universally accepted standard. Perhaps that all will change soon. But for me personally I think I will go with Carrara for now. I dont see it being a problem for my work. But if it ends up being that way, well I still have LW7.5 to fall back on. I made this statement last year, but back then I thought I "could" get into the modeler, but that didnt happen. Although I did do one job with it that paid for the software. With this upgrade, the modeler works as well as I need it to already. Again, I am not a "power" user by any stretch of the imagination. But if do "grow" in my work, well there is always Hexagon, which I am also quite pleased with, based on the 1.2 demo. Ok, sorry for the long post. But I thought it might be interesting to share my thoughts. Cheers!!

It is indeed interesting post to read. I am tempted to ask you: Did you find very disappointing that symmetry did not include in new Vertex Modeling room? In my opinion without symmmetry option in VM is difficult to use and may consider to be junkie modeling room because everything in the world have symmetry. I could not think what I would want to model in junkie new VM that do not have symmetry! Hexagon is just a waste because it is separated core software and you have to deal with import/export process between apps and apps. I am never in mood for it. :(

No I was not "too" disappointed. But dealing with import/export does not bother me too much.

Why did you even bother answering Gwebs question, Dbigers. He has ask that 10 times now and he will continue to do so the more fuel you guys give him. He may call it junkie but the majority don't agree with him. He hasn't even use it. Ringo

On pourpose, regarding people disappointed or not... There is now a refresh button when i change an imported texture?? Or i need to close my 30 meg file and relaunch Carrara? I've ask it to Eovia 4 years ago...;-) -TOXE

 

Toxe what version of Carrara did you stop using at? There is no refresh button, but since Carrara 2(2002?) there has been a "Reload" button right under the "Load" button that will update any changes to imported textures in the shader room. It has not been removed for version 5. wayne k guam usa

Mmmmh, maybe there isn't in the mac version? -TOXE

 

Me, I'm liking it. I did the basic model in this pic in about 10 minutes and really love the inter-active tools, this started as a circle and was extruded and trimmed to shape. Now I'm playing with uvmapping and shaders, something I regret to say I haven't paid much attention to, so it's a bit slow going. Can't wait to be able to buy a hard copy of the manual. Oh and yse this object is symetrical unlike most things in nature (at least according to every art class and art book I've ever seen).

Nuts, hit the button too quick. Heres the pic.

Mmmmh, maybe there isn't in the mac version? -TOXE That is possible, I have never seen Carrara running on a mac. :>) wayne k guam usa

Ouch! And i've never seen Carrara running on PC!!:-)) -TOXE

 

The refresh button is definitely there in the Mac version. I don't have Carrara on the computer I'm using now, so I can't give you a screenshot, but the icon looks like a folder with a circular arrow or something like that. It's one of the icons next to the image preview in the texture tree. That button is not the greatest tool, though, because if you change a texture map you have to go open your texture in the texture room, unfold the tree to see the mapping, and click that button. I wish that that there was a global texture refresh command, so that I could reload several textures at once. Or better yet, Carrara could automatically detect when textures are updated (lots of programs have this ability - the game authoring system Unity, for instance.) - Joe

TOXE

This is the button rendererer is referring to. It refreashes the imported texture map if you make a change to it. I hope this helps.

mike

Mmmh, really? in C4 and previous versions don't work (on mac at least)... -TOXE

 

How odd? I've used it a lot in C4 on the PC. I'm working on the testure map and bump map for my scout ship now but I haven't used the refreash buttom yet in C5. mike

BTW the best thing of all is this thread that seems to be the longest in history of this forum:-))) -TOXE

 

I think the automatic detect would be great...very easy. uvmapping is enough challenge.:D Just like in a word processor when it knows the doc has changed.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

quote, I wish that that there was a global texture refresh command, so that I could reload several textures at once. Or better yet, Carrara could automatically detect when textures are updated (lots of programs have this ability - the game authoring system Unity, for instance.) end quote. I am quite sure when you open the carrara file it gets all the updated texture maps , at least I remember this happening before. Mike

I think it depends on which option you choose. If you store your textures external to the Carrara file then they would be updated automatically. If you store the texture INTERNAL to the Carrara file they wouldn't get automatically updated. At least that's how it seems to work in C4, haven't checked on C5 yet. mike

Thought I would post this volumetric lighting example from carrara regarding the issue discussed because, frankly...it's a little funny.Altho, in Vue I did not see the light pick up color as in TS example.I do hope they fix it.

No need to think outside the box....
    Just make it invisible.

Yes, save INTERNALLY is comfortable, but the file size sometimes become absurd but is really handy when you need to exchange your file with someone else (a good feature that not all the 3d software have), my 2 cent advice is to create a folder with all your textures and your 3d files or better than all, complete your 3d work, save a scene with INTERNALLY then open again the file and save it all EXTERNALLY in your folder, so you will have a copy of all your textures:-P -TOXE