I recently purchased Tiff785's Angelyna Wing Textures, but soon after I started testing how they work I realized I must be missing something, because I'm not getting any changes after applying textures nor materials?

Here we are after having removed all textures an rendering, just to have a control referance.

Here we are after having applyed the Sharkey texture I've modified and set on rather thickly.

And here is a look at yet another set of setting I've tried to make a differance with. This one is Tiff785's red wings material, but even this extreme a contrast has'nt made the slightest bit of differance. Why do all of my renders look like I've never applyed anything?

Maybe you have to do it one wing at a time? Are there other options under "Material"?

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

This figure only has about a half dozen parts. After I'd applied materials to two different parts(Preview, and Angelyna Wings) without success I figured that must not be it, but because you mentioned it I went ahead and tried poking at all of them, and this definately has made at least some effect! I also found the need to apply both Tiff785's Material and MAT presets, when I saw the material settings were still using my texture. Allthough this is the goal we're looking for...

I do have that. But at the moment I can't try it for you as I'm trying to avert an external hard drive crash before it happens. It gave me a couple of errors earlier that I couldn't fix by disk scan, so I moved all my files off of it and am about to format the drive. If someone doesn't reply to you before I'm done, I'll try it myself and see what happens. One other option you have is to PM Tiff and ask her.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Here is where we're at, after rendering.

I've sent an Instant Message to Tiff785, asking her if she'd come and help us out here, and am really hoping she can. I'd wished she'd included a .PZ3 with her product, just to avoid this rigging part, but I guess it's been difficult for her to find.

Wow, thank you very much for the offer, I can wait, drive backup/formats are such a pain it's easy to make a mistake. = )

I'm just copying my runtimes back to the drive. It will take a few hours though. Lots of gigs to copy over.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Looking at your settings, is your diffuse_2 thats connected to the alternate diffuse an image map, or just a color? You may need to connect the texture to it (if it isn't a map already), as I believe alternate diffuse overrides the diffuse. Also, she sent out an e-mail with links for getting updated p5/p6 materials, so if you didn't get it, may want to ask about that also :)

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Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

I think the problem is with the Angelyna Wings. In order to get them to work correctly in Poser 5 and 6, I've had to invert the normals (using the grouping tool). I think they were modelled with the normals facing the wrong way. This doesn't matter in P4 or PP, but with P5 and P6, they don't render correctly.

Ok, I've just had a chance to do this. In order for you to change the colour, you need to change not only the "wings", but each row of feathers too. In the menu below the window, pick "Body", and then in the Material area, change the colour for each thing in the drop down menu. I had no problem changing the wings from white to shocking pink.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

What version of Poser are you using, and did they render pink?

Poser 5, and yes, they rendered the colour I picked...I just did another one with rainbow colours to show the different layers of feathers.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Interesting. It doesn't work for me in Poser 6 unless I reverse the normals. The color looks different in the preview window, but when you render it renders the same dark, muddy color.

Okay, I dusted off my copy of Poser 5. It does work in Poser 5. It doesn't work in Poser 6.

Hmmm, strange. Here are the original wings with the white texture of Tiff's applied plus bright global lights. I took it to the material room and took an initial screenshot. I changed "feather 1", and you can see in the preview that it changed to red. And the bottom image is the draft render.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Okay, here they are, head to head. The exact same scene - same pose, same lights, same materials - rendered in P5 and P6, as downloaded and with the normals reversed.

As you can see, both in P5 and P6, it looks better with normals reversed. The problem is not as noticeable with P5, but the colors are still distinctly dull and dark compared to how it's supposed to look.

Hmm. Interesting. I do see what you mean about the darkened colours upon rendering.

I don't know what "Reversed Normals" are though. What are they and how do you reverse them?

Message edited on: 12/08/2005 17:28

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Basically, normals tells the renderer which side is the inside, and which side is the outside.

Poser 4 didn't really care. It rendered both sides the same. But Firefly doesn't like reversed normals. The Angelyna Wings are really old, and were probably made before P5. I think they were modelled inside out, only no one cared until Firefly came along.

To reverse the normals, use the grouping tool. You will have to do it for each existing group. Select a group, click "reverse normals," then select the next group and repeat until you've done all the groups. Test it by rendering; you'll probably see if you've missed any groups. Save the wings to your library, and you'll never have to do it again. They'll take the same textures and poses as the original wings.

Here's the grouping tool in P5 (it's similar in P6). It's that button with the dotted box. The group you select will turn red, the rest will be dark.

Figured it out. It was actually pretty easy. The groups are already there, you just have to draw a small square somewhere on the wing in order to get a "group" up in the group editor. I managed to do that for all of the groups I think. I ended up with total black for the wings. I then saved the wings to the library. Thanks for the tip and the explaination. I learn something new here everyday.. I just wish I can remember it all over the long term.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

BTW, in p6 you can also just click "normals forward" on the material and it will do the same as reversing the normals on the group editor.

I just wish I'd seen this thread earlier as I'd already run into this (and the solution) long ago and I was just working up an angel picture with these exact same products over the weekend.

It really did make a difference. I did notice that the white wings were never really snow white and had a dingy grey tone to them. I always thought it was my lights (I use premade ones only). Since I did that "reverse normals" for the groups, it's made all the difference. White wings are really white wings! LOL Dan, that is a wonderful image. I'm sorry about your Dad :( Both of my parents are deceased and that moved me.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Glad you liked it. I'm working up a print-size render of it to take to my next art show. Good to hear that the normals were indeed at the root of the problem. If you're in p6, give the "Normals_Forward" a try. I believe you'll get the same results with much less work. While the manual doesn't even mention this setting, I believe it's a signal to Firefly to examine each face and if the normal faces away from the camera, reverse it. In other words, it will always assume it's looking at the outside of the face.

Can the reverse group normals be used on both the top and underside of the wings at the same time so that the colour renders the same on top and underneath?

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I don't know if the reverse group normals can do that -- it's either front or back. However, the "Normals_Forward" flag in P6's material room will do it. Go look at that angel piece again. You can see both the front and back of the right wing, and they are both well-lit.

P5 doesn't have the "normals forward" option, unfortunately.

Ok, so I take that as a "no", lol Maybe sometime next year I'll upgrade to Poser 6, but for now Poser 5 is more than adequate for my needs. I still have so much to learn in it.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Getting back on topic has anyone had any success getting Tiff785's textures to look as fluffy as they appear in the advertisiments?

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?ViewSoftgood=25377&ViewImage=3#Image

She has 2 links on her site to download version specific texture files. If you are using Poser 6, make sure you download and install the Poer 6 Material Collection. Maybe that will help you.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I've have these. I'd just like to know they work for anyone. = )

Ok. Just trying all angles for you. As with many promo images, it's quite possible that the image was "touched up", in Photoshop. My renders don't look "soft and fluffy" either, at least not as soft and fluffy as in the promo image for it. It's entirely possible that the sofening tool was run over them, at a low setting to give the ethereal look to them. You'll have to check with Tiff to find that out though. If they have been post worked, I wish that merchants wouldn't do that. I do like to see what I'm getting, and you only know that if they show true untouched renders. They aren't sitting at my computer post working my images, so the chances of my achieving their post worked look is pretty slim.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I did a quick experiment and softened one wing, and left the other untouched. Looking at the results I would say that the wings in the promo image were softened in post work (probably with more care and time than I took to do it).

Message edited on: 12/10/2005 01:36

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I believe it's considered poor form to postwork promo images (except for one "artistic" render, which is usually the last image). It might just be lighting and render settings. They seem to make a big difference.

This is a P4 render (but done in P6).

And here's a Firefly render (also done in P6). They look quite different. I suspect a P4 render actually done in P4 would look more like Tiff's promo image.

Quote - I believe it's considered poor form to postwork promo images (except for one "artistic" render, which is usually the last image)

I wish all merchants felt that way.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Tiff785 was kind enough to respond to my e-mail with the P5.PZ3 I was asking for. When I first got it I opened it in Poser 6, but it rendered all black. Without saving I opened it in P5, but it was missing a geometry I think, because the prop did not appear in the scene. I then saved the P5 file, with P6, opened it in P5, and it rendered this image. I think this looks pretty nice. Sorry I haven't put a decent background for everyone yet(Maybe we'll get to that when I install P4 Pro Pack tonight.) This is a definite improvement over no texture at all, much better than I've ever seen of the default texture, and all for renderosity's minimum price of just $5!

There was no postwork done here. The only thing I've changed, of the .PZ3 she gave me, is that I centered the overhead light, and brightened it to match the other two.

Tiff785 also set us straight with regard to her Promo pics, She wrote:

"The thumbnail has very mild postwork (level adjustment and light blurring), but the rest of the promos have absolutely no postwork, blurring, or "touch ups".

She then went on to offer a few pointers in regard to Render Options:

"First, make sure your "Maximum Texture Resolution" is set to 4096. Then try setting your "Minimum shading rate (pixel area)" to 0.200 or lower. I noticed that on objects with transparencies, this makes a HUGE difference! If your computer can handle it, you can decrease this number all the way down to 0.0. Something else that might help is to increase the number of "Pixel Samples" to 4.0 or 5.0. Beware, this will really increase the render time! Some other things you might try is turning off any raytracing, shadows, displacement, or bump maps on the wings. I never used any of these in the promos. The wings should look fine with depth mapped shadows, but the raytraced shadows might look too harsh."

Acadia - That is a very nice image you've rendered! How are your render settings, are they similar to what Tiff785 has suggested? If not, would you post a screenshot of your Render Options window?

randym77 is correct, Tiff785 believes the best render engine to use is the one she used when creating the wings, which is Poser 4 with Pro Pack.

I'll be installing Poser Pro Pack sometime shortly, as soon as I do I'll be sure to return here with my results!

Here is a screenshot of my render options.

The lighting was one of the complex global lights... snowcone I think.

Quote - "The thumbnail has very mild postwork (level adjustment and light blurring), but the rest of the promos have absolutely no postwork, blurring, or "touch ups".

Sorry, I was referring to the thumbnail posted in this thread, and not all of the pictures in the item's MP. However, a thumbnail is what the person first sees and I consider it a "promo image", in addition it was the image that had the look being strived for in this thread. Message edited on: 12/12/2005 17:41

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

You can uncheck "use displacement maps," unless you are actually using displacement maps (that is, have something connected to the displacement node in the material room).

Gaussian will soften the render somewhat - a little like blurring in Photoshop. If you're using dynamic hair, you might want to set Gaussian or Sync to 2 or so. It will make the hair look softer, and less like wire.

Increasing pixel samples will produce a higher quality render, but will be slower. Ditto shading rate, only lower is better. I sometimes lower it to 0.02, to make prop hair look nice. (You have to set it under object properties as well as in the render options. Which is good, because it means you can set it to different numbers for different items. Some things need a lower shading rate than others.)

Edited to make clear that lower shading rate is higher quality.

Message edited on: 12/12/2005 17:54

It seems that window is an art unto itself. Not much in there, but confusing as all heck, hehe Thanks for the tips. I've always left "displacement" checked because I have no clue what "displacement" is for... or what it does for that matter. I figured it was default and needed to be active, lol

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I uncheck when I'm not using any displacement (which is most of the time), because Poser seems to render faster. I could be imagining it, though. ;-)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2502894

Well I just tested in Poser 4 Pro Pack, but had a major Memory failure! If anyone is using Pro Pack please refer to my thread at the link above? = )

Thanks again randym77 the Memory Patch available at e-frontiere.com worked fine! Now(Drum roll please!) onto Poser 4 Pro Pack Testing! Poser Pro pack seems to have opened my Poser 5 file easy enough...

But look what happening during renders! Everything disappears! Shouldn't it be the other way around, aren't things supposed to clear up with rendering?

Here is a peek at my Render Settings...

And here are my Surface Material Options. I don't understand how the whole object could disappear, I've never had anything similar happen?

You have to check "use texture maps." Poser is rendering the object transparent because it's not using the texture map.

I just tried, no dice? = )

I just tried it in ProPack, and it works for me. Have you applied the textures?

We still need to work on the others, but this new P5 render looks really nice!

Glad you finally got it all worked out :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Since this thread, I've now upgraded to Poser 6. Can someone tell me how to reverse the normals on the wings in Poser 6 veresion?

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

You can do it the same way to you did for P5 (or use the P5 version, if you saved it). Or you can just click "normals forward" for each section of the wings. It's in the Material Room. If you don't see the "normals forward" option, you need to install the service releases.

I use poser 4 and was wondering if anyone knows what level to set the transparency at to make them look like feathers please? I have the transparency loaded, but I have not been able to get them to look like anything but a flat picture of wings. Any help woould be very appreciated.

Thank you

Moonbow

Can you post a render and a screenshot of your current material settings ?

Render.

Render Settings.

Material Room.

Without including the Angelyna Wings geometries.obj or Tiff795's textures, could I distribute the .PZ3?

@Angelouscuitry
I was asking Moonbow for settings and a render, as I thought you'd got it sorted out (although I did think that your settings were a little on the low side, i.e. no raytracing but material setup looks fine).
I only get e-bots if I forget to turn them off.

Sorry it has taken so long to reply. Here is the render. I am using poser4. I have the transparency loaded and the trans mim set at 0% and max set at 100%. Highlights are set at 71%. Sorry for the bright background. I plan on putting this image on another one and the green makes it easier to select the parts I want to copy.

Any suggestions you might have Angelouscuitry will be greatly appreciated :)

Moonbow

I believe I had to re do the mat files on that set. When I redid the mats I used Sharkey's original bump maps with the Tiff textures. Hope that helps.
cheerio  lululee

Poser 4 is a far stretch from Poser5/6, but...I'd try bringing the min up to about %50, then %100.  You could also try to raise the Max., and do both.

I do'nt have my Tiff texs. open but remember it's the white that will stay put, and the black areas that dissappear. 

The Bump works the same way white - black.  You could try loading one of you textures there, alternatively, and/or along with the Trans.

Thank you, I will definately try that. I'll let you know how it works :-)