Character and/or Texture packages for the following figures are not allowed to be shown nude in any promotional images in the MarketPlace

Aiko

Hiro

Koshini

Ichiro

Krystal

LaRoo

Miki

Mill Kids

Rosy Cheeks Lina

The Girl

Terai Yuki

E J

I'll not even stat my opinion in the opening,I just want to see reactions

Message edited on: 12/31/2005 07:40

I have to wonder why Miki and EJ were added, but that's my opinion.

I figure it's a private server and the ones who run it make the rules, regardless of whether they are popular rules or not. I'll adapt and adjust, as will everyone else in time. Some are upset now, but in a few weeks it will be all water under the bridge and back to business, with a few small changes. There are no changes to the Gallery rules, so I don't really see why people are so upset over it. You don't need to see boobs and genitals to see if a skin texture is nice. Chances are if the person paid much attention to the skin texture on the face and body, they paid equal attention to the parts that a 2 piece bathing suit covers. And if they didn't, there is always the refund policy.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Miki, EJ, the anime characters and the toon characters do not belong on that list. Luke and Laura are missing.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

Wether you agree or disagree a smart business will listen to their customers now Renderosity is a business

But it's also a business on a private server. Just like a store inside a shopping mall is subject to the Mall's rules. The only difference is one is virtual, and the other isn't.

I agree with Acadia. These are the rules and we deal with them or leave...pretty simple.

My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice!

Besides, I think you are all missing the big picture here. In another thread someone stated that they sell here because this site gives them the most sales. Have any of you even considered that this change might be a good thing where other sites are concerned? Obviously Renderosity has a monopoly on the Poser market. Now there is a chance that the market will spread out to the other poser sites, making Renderosity less of a monopoly than it's been. I really don't see this as a bad thing at all. It has huge benefits for other sites that have stores.

If this is a WIP list, I wouldn't be greatly bothered by the odd selection. There's obvious candidates missing, which come in the box with Poser. And there are characters on the list which it seems ridiculous to condider as underage. It should be obvious why Renderosity want to be careful about this. It would be far better if Renderosity didn't look so damnably careless in how they manage these affairs.

"Obviously Renderosity has a monopoly on the Poser market. Now there is a chance that the market will spread out to the other poser sites, making Renderosity less of a monopoly than it's been." Monopoly? Nah. Gargantuan pit of habit and central gathering place with an all but inescapable gravity well? Yeah :) but no -- this isn't a bad thing. It's growth and change. Does it affect the galleries? Not directly, and not immediately. My opinion is that there are some issues with sensitivity training that need to be had on the part of the Renderosity Store team, particularly as it regards to women, but, well, that is my opinion, and hey, it is their site. Lots of other ponds to splash in still :)

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Heh, so those models are 'teens' or 'kids' now? Hahaha. Okay I'll bite. Rendo's site, rendo's rules. We can live with it or leave. Sounds good when it's being yapped on a forum, wonder how it feels in practice? 90% of my '04 Poser dollars were spent at Renderosity. 90% of my '05 Poser dollars were spent at the 'other' sites. Great buisness model IMO. Good thing Rendo has that massive legacy behind it to keep pushing it forward. As for the real issue here, get with the program kids. Do you honestly think that a site will consider certain models 'teens' for store shots but not for gallery images? LOL. How naive do you have to be? I'll let you in on a not so secret, secret, it may not happen for a month or two or six, but that change is coming. You can bet your sweet pixels it is. And when it does the same folks will line up to tell us how great a change it is, how it's not a big deal, 'cause after all the store has been like that for a while now, and why would we want to do neekid pictures of those kid models anyway. :) Happy New Year!

I am okay with all this but I am curious over why Miki is on the list... it never occurred to me she appeared particularly young. And she does own a pretty boss motorcycle.

I'd just like to understand why Miki is considered underage and her counterpart Koji is not (see Aiko/Hiro), is it the beard? Some coherency would be nice.
Besides there are still merchants with nude promo images with Aiko and Hiro, and i didn't see their stores erased (not yet at least, and not as quickly as some other merchants).

However I'll abide to the rules, nobody forced me to come here anyway, it's not my company, and i actually like many people in here.

Just food for thought.

Oh! And a Happy New Year :-)

Edited to say that obviously i don't agree with some items on that list (Miki included) :-)

Message edited on: 12/31/2005 10:02

Face it folks, like DAZ and EF, Rendo is going fot the BIG ONE.

Imagine Poser running in schools, libraries and universities.
Imagine all the kiddies getting hooked to Vicky and telling their stay at home soccer moms about that cool virtual BARBIE they can dress and play games with.

Imagine Rendo being the #1 site they all come to buying new clothes for their "virtual Barbie".

Can you imagine how much $$$ there is in that market ?

But this wont happen unless Rosity like DAZ bans EACH and ANY nudity from their site, so that they are no longer considered Pr0n by Ms and Ms "Make it safe for the children"

Of course they cant take away our freedom to do smut just all at once.
Naw. How do you cook a frog ?
Throw him in boiling water and he will jump right out of the pot.
But put him into warm water and heat it gradually and hell
happily stay until its too late.

Make no mistake. They WILL ban nudity from the gallery and from the forums, too, because they have to.

It has absolutely nothing to do with PayPal or credit cards,
but all with going for more profit.

If you want to make big $$$ selling Barbie clothing to kiddies, this is the place to be.
If you want artistically freedom and integrity, well...

Im not judging here. All Im saying is that you should KNOW what youre doing and where the ship is heading to.

stahlratte

Miki should not be on that list. Although she has some faults, she is the closest model there is to an accurate portrayal of an Asian woman. I've posted in another link the problems Rosity would face if they were a European company but something else occurs to me.

Someone needs to give the Rosity Admin team some education in understanding the norms of other cultures. I have not found anyone of Asian origin who believes Miki to be any other than an adult.

My main question though is, does the Rosity Admin team even care?

It would be interesting to see what would happen if a merchant were to offer a character based on Miki but with bigger breasts to conform with the Admin team's WASP stereotyping on female ageing. As it stands, the ban on MIKI is an insult to Asian women adn, indirectly, to all women blessed with smaller than average breasts.

They should come clean with their agenda: either, no naked promo pics at all in the store, even on pages 2 and 3, or they should ban all of those that are clearly under age, including, as SVDL points out, Luke and Laura. Edited to say that this post crosed with the one above and I too believe that it is part of a move towards an eventual total ban on nudity. It would not surprise me if someone at Rosity has attributed the growth of Daz to their 'no nudes rule' and wants to implement the same policy. If this is the case, then they should come clean and say so

Message edited on: 12/31/2005 10:34

I agree ... This is obviously a business decision; but the rules seem to change very often. If the intent is to eventually get rid of nudity entirely, it's better to cause the uproar once and get it over with, instead of starting several fires over the course of time.

Rendo bans all these characters so they can sell you Renda 2.

Software: Daz Studio 4.15, Photoshop CC, Zbrush 2022, Blender 3.3, Silo 2.3, Filter Forge 4. Marvelous Designer 7

Hardware: self built Intel Core i7 8086K, 64GB RAM, RTX 3090 .

"If you spend too much time arguing about software, you're spending too little time creating art!" ~ SomeSmartAss

"A critic is a legless man who teaches running." ~ Channing Pollock

My Gallery My Other Gallery

"I figure it's a private server and the ones who run it make the rules, regardless of whether they are popular rules or not." Being a private site don't save them from people being upseted, from bashings and from whingeings. "There are no changes to the Gallery rules" Not yet, not yet, not yet.... "I agree with Acadia. These are the rules and we deal with them or leave...pretty simple." Do you know what are sindicates, strikes and lockouts?????? "You don't need to see boobs and genitals to see if a skin texture is nice." Yes we do, some parts of the body makes no difference of the texture used, but others...... -------- Save Miki from the Bastilla, Viva la Revolution!!!!

Stupidity also evolves!

I too would like to know how Miki and the GIRL made the list. Miki is clearly an adult, and the creator of the GIRL has clearly stated that the character is an adult (and DAZ agrees with the declaration).

Mabye the Renderosity PTB's could make a statement to inform the users/customers of the site of the decisions and reasons behind them? Would this be too much to ask? Apparently so, since it should have already been done. If I missed the post, could someone point it out for me?

I can understand The Girl and EJ being on the list. The Girl's body may be adult, but her face is very youthful. In fact, she reminds me of the "Disney princesses." (Belle, Ariel, etc.) And EJ looks like she's about 14 years old to me.

But Miki? She doesn't look underage to me at all. Perhaps it's the general neotony of Asians? Back in the '60s, there were frequent reports of "child soldiers" in Vietnam, who when tracked down, turned out be adults as old as 40. Americans just could not accurately judge the age of Asians.

Though it doesn't explain why Miki is on the list, and Koji isn't.

Personally, I'm surprised they don't go DAZ's route, and not show any "naughty bits." It would be a lot easier. And it doesn't seem to be hurting DAZ's sales any.

This is simply a business decision. RMP has looked at their numbers, made a few projections and figured they can deal with the loss of certain brokered items. The sheer volume this site does pretty much gives them carte blanche on what they want in their sandbox. Art and Business do not get along very well, but they can be made to play together in a stiltedly amicable way. As a broker, you need to look at your bottom line, make a few projections and see if you can deal with the loss of sales. Or if you need to seek a different brokerage for what RMP no longer allows to be sold in their sandbox.

I think the inclusion of Aiko3, The Girl and Miki is plain silly. Admittedly, they can all be made to look young but then so can Victoria. And while they are at it, what about Stephanie Petite? The mesh is the same apparent age as Aiko3 so there's a huge inconsistency there. I don't like the way this has been thought out but I'm just gonna have to suck it up.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

"Americans just could not accurately judge the age of Asians." Neither differenciate them, all have the same face!

Stupidity also evolves!

I don't think Miki comes with morphs to make her young? Does she? I know there are xtra packs by others with shaping morphs, but all figures ahve those. Unimesh textures can be displayed on V3 for display purposes in a popup then? I don't really care, but am just kinda curious.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

No, Anton, Miki doesn't have morphs to make her look young but she does have a Schoolgirl outfit, which I guess tipped the scales against her. V3 has one or two of those, too but since the model is a well established "Adult Like" model, that wouldn't go against her. Displaying the textures on another Unimesh figure is no problem but I like to show the figures complete, morphs, textures and all. Sure, I can work round the restrictions, I just think they are badly thought out, arbitrary and inconsistent.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I have seen torture and certainly a lot of dominatrix and fetish stuff in the RM and that makes me wonder. Content Paradise has a "nudity filter". A "family oriented" Market Place store independent of the existing Market Place is another option. In any case I still recognize the right of a retailer to choose what products to sell and what promotional material is acceptable. I shop here because I find the free-for-all of independent vendors consistently produces higher quality product than does the "store artist" and "brokered artist" schemes. The stuff here is just plain better and cheaper though sorting it out from the crappy stuff can be difficult. I dunno... I just am amused that a chain and leather thong makes all the difference I guess :) OT? Pubic hair on a V3 or M3 character does make a big difference to me. I certainly favor female textures with genitals on them. I have never accepted the idea that women have no "external" genitalia... it just doesn't jive with anything I have seen in the real world.

It's time to change to Barbie dolls.

Stupidity also evolves!

I agree A filter would have been a better choice. All of wyrmmaster's stuff is gone except one little pose set honestly (a sad day indeed) I was going to buy 4 of his sets you can still see them on my public wish list but I messed around to long.

When Censorship knocks on the door and you let him in, Don't bitch when he moves in and takes over. I've been waiting for "credit card must before you can join this site"... I wonder how long it will be before someone decides that there is to much T and A in the gallery? Maybe Rendo should worry more about kids view thier gallery, rather than someone posting a nude "3D" child or child like model????

Barbie dolls have many advantages, if you do a rendering nobody will be able to post a critic "she looks as a barbie doll" because she is a barbie doll!

Stupidity also evolves!

All of wyrmmaster's stuff is gone except one little pose set honestly unless they CHOSE to close their store,they will be back in the market as soon as new promos are made us merchants are not having products outright deleted,they are just taken out of the market until changes are made. including, as SVDL points out, Luke and Laura. Luke and Laura ARE on the list,they grouped all the Milkids together,so Mill Kids means..Luke Laura,Maddie,Matt,the original preteens and preschoolers and mill babies. -3dz

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

I wonder how long it will take before this tread "disappears" (read: censored by admins). One big tread from last night (Norwegian time) regarding this is gone. One tread from today, by a merchant who got all his stuff and access revoked is also gone.

Before this one is locked: "A team of British researchers announced that many young girls mutilate and torture their Barbie dolls. According to University of Bath researcher Agnes Nairn, "the girls we spoke to see Barbie torture as a legitimate play activity....The types of mutilation are varied and creative, and range from removing the hair to decapitation, burning, breaking, and even microwaving." Barbie has future!

Stupidity also evolves!

Not to be a sicko, but I understand from BBC etc that in the US an "age of consent" that ranges from eleven years old to sixteen years old depending on the local jurisdiction. US crime shows on TV have it that an 18 year old engaged in consensual relations with a seventeen year old can be charged for "statutory rape" and that "inter-state transportation of a minor for lewd purposes" is a federal crime. What does "age of consent" mean exactly in the US? Such low ages mystify and frighten me. I would not go with someone in their twenties even though I am not yet forty... far too creepy. What the hell does fourteen being the age of consent mean? How do such laws relate to images such as of Miki in its default form? It seems that the vulnerable children are not protected from abuse but images of even a wholesome nature can be proscribed. Many have attributed Vicky's lack of genitals to DAZ being in Utah but I understand that in Utah it is legal for very young girls, children even, to be forcibly "married" to older men. Can any one explain the meaning of age of consent, image of a minor, and representation of a minor in US terms?

What gives the lowest common denominator in this culture so much power? And why do administrators in this society always bow to its tyranny? Is it cowardice and stupidity or just plain greed and contempt? Ironic isn't it? Torture and abductions of innocent people conducted by US institutions all over the world are condoned by most of the population, yet naked 3d polygons are arbitrarily given age, sex and some sort of independence of purpose. One might say they are given the dignity that most of the poor in this society still desperately crave for. Like president Clinton, perhaps we should all start asking what the definition of the word "IS" is.... let alone "REALITY". I will persist in thinking that the naked body, at any age, is the most dignified and the most outrageously beautiful creation ever. And I will continue to resist the tyranny of the lowest of the low, who would redefine it by dragging it down to the depths of their moral or esthetic levels. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Hey, guys, Just thought I'd pop in, not locking the thread, just posting a little blurb about the new rules. 1. They're not affecting the galleries. 2. The changes to the nudity guidelines within the Renderosity MarketPlace are due to changing trends within the industry and it provides us with a much larger target market. 3. The "dissappearance" of stores is only until the Merchant updates their thumbnail image and main promo, and is at their discretion. They were given time to change them, and many merchants had done so in the previous year with no prompting. 4. More clarification can be had by contacting the Store Admin ;) In Closing, Have a Happy New Year! MorriganShadow Poser Moderator

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

I don't understand this kind of rules.Anyway,Renderosity can do what they want:it is a private site.But ,really,i don't understand:what next?

Someone needs to give the Rosity Admin team some education in understanding the norms of other cultures. Why? ...does the Rosity Admin team even care? Yes. A more accurate question would be "what do they care about?" As it stands, the ban on MIKI is an insult to Asian women adn, indirectly, to all women blessed with smaller than average breasts. My particular feelings about how they feel about women reside publically in the Community Center forum. Have for a long while, now, and this is nothing new. They should come clean with their agenda: either, no naked promo pics at all in the store, even on pages 2 and 3, or they should ban all of those that are clearly under age, including, as SVDL points out, Luke and Laura. Luke and Laura are already under the previous ban. THis list is an expansion of that. As for an agenda, you make an assumption there without merit. What evidence of an agenda have you seen thus far? And EJ looks like she's about 14 years old to me. This is actually the issue -- folks disagree with the interpretation of the renderosity admins, who are likely erring on the side of caution. Their site, their rules. Being a private site don't save them from people being upseted, from bashings and from whingeings. No, it doesn't. BUt it does mean that we, as their guests/members, folks hanging out, should provide them with the courtesy of respecting that decision and not calling them foul names. Well, at least not outright and on their boards. Seems sorta rude to walk into someone's house and call them nasty names. THen again, this is christmas, and family traditions include lots of variants. When Censorship knocks on the door and you let him in, Don't bitch when he moves in and takes over. ROFL. Censorship is exercised by everyone, everyday of their lives. Government censorship is what you should be referring to. NOt the individual exercising of personal preference by individuals -- which is censorship. Pot? Kettle? What does "age of consent" mean exactly in the US? It varies according to the purpose in question and the ZJurisdiction. Overall age of sexual consent in the US is 18, in keeping with federal rules (not law, rules). COnsent to marry is governed by the individual jurisdictions. AOC for Voting, smoking, drinking, and similar things also varies according to federal and local statutes, depending. RO is located in Tennessee, which is nominally a "southern state", and is also an Appalaichian (sp?) state, where there's a history of some unusually low AOC's for various activities that the area has for several decades been trying to overcome since it is an unfair stigma. What gives the lowest common denominator in this culture so much power? And why do administrators in this society always bow to its tyranny? Is it cowardice and stupidity or just plain greed and contempt? Democracy, self preservation, and none of the above. ...Torture and abductions of innocent people conducted by US institutions all over the world are condoned by most of the population,... Evidence of this available, or is this observational opinion? I will persist in thinking that the naked body, at any age, is the most dignified and the most outrageously beautiful creation ever. And I will continue to resist the tyranny of the lowest of the low, who would redefine it by dragging it down to the depths of their moral or esthetic levels. Most excellent. Um, this pertains to the current situation in what way exactly?

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I agree that the staff here can be rude and reading through the thread at their comments I don't follow the forums enough to have an opinion on that but I dealt with the store staff concerning this nudity issue and they were friendly and courteous through out. They answered my questions and reviewed my individual case in a considerate fashion. I found the vendor mass mailing respectful and polite, the staff dealings with me individualy nothing but commendable. DAZ promos? Man, I can't figure out what that is about... the stuff invariably looks like total crap in the promo but can turn out to be quite good. In the end though, I have bought many many more products here than there, mainly for quality but also I am sure due to the larger clearer better looking promo images. I have only been burned a couple times here by deceptive images... Changes here? Anything that expands the Poser market is good in my opinion, it will drive new editions, innovation, quality products and very unfortunately for the artists, lower prices. Look at BATLAB, 3Dream, and Baron_Vlad_Harkoneon for sick low prices. Check "from last" and you will find "characters" for Dork or Posette that consist essentially of a single head morph more or less and cost $12-$18. Recently on the radio I heard a Christian activist in the US saying vis the gay marriage that the US policy of indefinite imprisonment and torture was far higher on her list of concerns. Don't hurt your pixels :) Seriously, Happy New Year.

3. The "dissappearance" of stores is only until the Merchant updates their thumbnail image and main promo, and is at their discretion. They were given time to change them, and many merchants had done so in the previous year with no prompting.

There are merchants still with nude promos of aiko and hiro, and their thumbnails are not gone.
Maybe the search for such products was not well done? shrug
I for one don't want to think about unfairness, hence the enforcement of the policy now.

Hi, Guida, The store staff is doing this manually, so not all of the items have been gone through at this point. There are literally thousands of items to go through, so this will be a longer process than you might expect from an automated process. MS

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

evidential, check the polls

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

fair enough. May I IM you with a comment regarding it? (the site tends to frown on political discussions and this thread doesn't need the drift ;))

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Thanks for clarifying MorriganShadow :-) Don't know why i just thought today would be like a deadline. (Taking back that New Year's Baileys bottle to where it belongs!)

You're welcome ;)

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

ynsaen, I really don't care to discuss it further. I've seen what torture does and I've recorded its destruction. I know the value of information obtained by its use. I know the hatred and revulsion that it produces in societies that face it. It's a lose/lose proposition. It may satisfy some innate need for revenge or some other abhorrent racist need, but that has other implications than those expressed in the policy. In the end, it sullies and criminalizes all of us who stand by and let it happen. end of story :}} With respect, Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Attached Link: http://prorev.com/2005/12/bushs-war-on-sex-and-first-amendment.htm

My opinion is it probably has something to do with this: http://prorev.com/2005/12/bushs-war-on-sex-and-first-amendment.htm [be aware the referred link from this page may have NSFW sidebar ads] In 2006, "simulated' and "adult" will no longer be a defense.

This policy implies that nudity is porn. My parents would therefore be criminals or bad people because they took photos of me in my bathtub as a child. They may have been bad photographers and could have chosen a better subject, but they were great people, no matter what Bush or the so-called industry standards may claim. No matter how you massage this, that seems to be the message. I'm affraid.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Gettin a tad off topic there, folks. There's no actual cause to believe that this has jack to do with these people making this decision about this site's store. It's sepculation, and unfounded spec at that. Now, granted, unfounded speculation has a long history and strong tradition in poserdom in general, but that's reachin a tad too far...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Oh, OK. Time will tell.

I was just responding to the "What is your opinion" part...

Oops, typo..Message edited on: 12/31/2005 21:21

Happy New Year

Message edited on: 12/31/2005 21:24

Yeah. I should not have gone political. This is not the place. Sorry. Should not go OT anyway. Maria, I don't know to whom you refer as "bashing". If my comments are interpreted as bashing I apologize for that too. I just tend to speak my mind but if something really ticks me off I tend to keep it to myself. Anyway I try not to bash an person, any site, and any figure other than Jessie ;) It seems from my just checking that the age of consent, the age at which a person may give legal consent to a sex act ranges in the US from 12 years of age to 16 years of age. However, photographing a person seventeen or younger in an erotic context is prohibited unless both the photographic subject and the photographer are above the age of consent and below the age of majority and the images are not distributed. I could not find information regarding "fictional" representations created without the use of actual persons that might be drawings, paintings, CGI. I could not find information for how the age difference between age seventeen and eighteen are to be established for legal purposes in the case of "fictional" representations . I think it is good the MP has established the policy it has, and I believe it has implemented it is a descent and respectful manner, but for theoretical purposes I would like to know specifically what people think (not how they feel) about the categorization of Toons as children, I just looked at those particular ones on the list and for the most part the could be interpreted as representing 16 year olds if one wished to do so. It is more difficult for me to see how a figure such as Miki, EJ or Satoko could be seen as representing persons under the age of eighteen. It seems that this MP policy certainly address earlier criticism that child nudity guidelines were based on breast size yet I am still concerned about making images of women with realistically small breast unless I age the face up to between 55 and seventy-five years of age. Should there be a relationship between the age of consent and the represented age in a "fictional" representation? What could make a figure a Toon figure yet clearly not an issue in terms of child nudity? Are there Toons that are clearly over the age of seventeen? Happy New Year and please... I intend no offense.

The great thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from. (old joke). If you ask someone to take some images off a site, you are implying that something is wrong with these images. That's just logic. I would quite like to know what was wrong with these images. It seems to me that that's a reasonable question.

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

As a note: While there's plenty of opportunity here for political discussion of the pros and cons of various policies regarding nudityin any form, it's the site's policy not to allow them. Other than not wanting the thread locked and to disappear, I dinnae care :) lol. I've been around lng enough to know what will generally fly and won't, and prefer to let the discussions continue without getting into a sort of user fight with the mods that's a no win sitch anywho -- all exclusive of the fact that the subject at hand is a website run by a very small group of folks and owned by two who happen to have sentiments not unlike those expressed already politically speaking. On to momodot's questions, with a small sidebar... Sidebar: good pull on the "think" not "feel". Most responses to this are emotional, not rational, thus far. Should there be a relationship? Well, as a writer, from my perspective, its inescapable. People will always associate a fictional image with a real one if they have any connection to it -- it's that association that creates that connection. What maks it difficult for a lot of people is that there is a sort of underlying expectation based on the commonality of the human condition and culture surrounding the individual that their peers are going to have a similar association and connection, when the truth is that in a world of 6 billion people who are generally highly mobile and come from several thousand potential cultural, sub-cultural, and local norm and mores structures its far more probable that they won't. In an environment such as this one, which is considerably more global in membership than the average small town, this is going to be exaggerated by various social forces, including the commonly found separation between artist and society (historically, artists are usually held to be outside asociety, both by their own acts and the acts of the societies they tend to portray in various forms and expressions). So, to me, the question is irrelevant. As something that cannot help but exist, particularly in the mind of someone who isn't part of the subcultural strata that this place belongs who is visiting and making comparisons to their own experiences in order to make sense of it, it's going to be present no matter what, simply as an extension of the fact that these things are representations of humans. What could make a figure a toon figure, yet clearly not an issue in terms of child nudity? Nothing. Be it from inexperience, lack of skill, worldview, or just plain orneriness, someone will always percieve something to be young, if they want to do so. A wrinkled old wizend figure, small, with grey hair? Why, that could be a child afflicted with that aging disease if the person's experience and interprestation so allows. There are staruday morning cartoons where the characters are drawn looking 10 or 12 to me, but they are supposed to be teens. And others where the teen looking figures are supposed to be 10 or 12. It's too dependent onthe indidviual's perceptions, and therefore subject to the vagaries of such. I still chuckle over the people who watched LOTR and asked why it was that a bunch of kids were entrusted with the ring. This also addresses your corollary, "Are there toons that are clearly ove the age of seventeen?". Again, a personal thing. I happen to find the Lina to be a bit young looking, for example, but as for anime doll, the koshini folks, and similar figures, I'm just as agahst as the next person that theycan be readily concieved of as being underage. On the other hand, I'm sensitive to the fact that while "anime" may be mainstream for us, for the bulk of the american public (and, since RO is governed by american laws, they do tend to have more say in the matter) they are not -- and that the majority of that same public tends to underestimate the age of most asian folks by five to ten years on average (whereas they overestimate the age of most black folks by three to five on average*). * University of Tucson Sociology review, 2001 In my personal opinion, the questions to be asking are: 1 - Where can I make images for store products like that? 2 - Where can I get store products that are not going to be updated (for example, Wyrmmaster, who is overseas in the military and unable to address this issue for an indeterminate amount of time)? 3 - Do I really want to hang at this site anymore, or should it just be a place I visit? 4 - How long until this affects the galleries if it really is about marketshare (since they'll never make it off the lists as long as those images are still in the gallery -- and likely not even then). 5 - Why does ynsaen have to be so damned long winded all the time. Stupid girl always goes on and on and on and on. Sheesh...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I would quite like to know what was wrong with these images. It seems to me that that's a reasonable question. Absolutely a reasonable question. And answered, as well. The thing that is "wrong" with these images is that they no longer meet the policy for store images. That's it. And, indeed, these particular images are only falling under attack now becuase there's been a lot of complaints (according to the store admins here) that it wasn't fair for new merchants to have to follow one set of rules, while these older products that were there before hand didn't have to. All they've done is made the rules apply to all products now, instead of just the new ones. This policy has been in place for several months now (back before the whole renda bs), so it's not like its actually anything new, other than the specific additions of the anime figures to the list of what they consider child like )(and, given what I recall in the merchant forum, that's almost certainly a direct result of merchant's whining about how they don't think such and such a promo is too young, while the admins do. Sorta makes their lives a lot easier).

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

"All they've done is made the rules apply to all products now, instead of just the new ones. This policy has been in place for several months now (back before the whole renda bs), so it's not like its actually anything new, other than the specific additions of the anime figures to the list of what they consider child like )(and, given what I recall in the merchant forum, that's almost certainly a direct result of merchant's whining about how they don't think such and such a promo is too young, while the admins do. Sorta makes their lives a lot easier)." Erm, no. That is completely incorect. The "No nudity in the thumb or first image" rule, yes. The rest, no. That was brought in last week, without any exception. Models that were ok to be shown nude were moved to the "Great big you're a Kid Fiddler" list overnight. Ang that's what really gets my goat. Suddenly, someone decides that Miki and Aiko are kids and I can no longer represent nude images of them on my product pages but - get this, gang - it's ok to show them stark nekkid in the galleries! Jesus Harry Christ on a pogo stick. Where is the sense in any of that?

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Hey, I did say "other than the specific additions of the anime figures to the list of what they consider child like ". As for sense... C'mon, ST -- you've been around a while, Sense? RO? Used together like that in a single sentence? The segment half the galleries by program, and half by some vague concept of format, and then don't really do much for making sure it works. They have a store that breaks pretty much every "standard" design rule out there. They use bondware. They still let me post here. Renderosity having sense. Next you'll be telling me I'm not crazy. And yeah. it is rahter silly. I mean, how do you define 80% of a virtual breast? And which 80% counts? I mean, I can cover everything but the nipple, and that doesn't count, but it's within guidelines. And I am serious. I'm looking for more folks to join ODF as merchants. I'm bieng flat out boisterous about it. I know that DAZ and Poser PRos are knockin, and I'm pretty certain Faerie Dreams and Animotions aren't gonna say no all that much either, lol. Vanishing Point's a nice place. Heck, even sixus1's site is a nice little place to go for some. SamTherapy, we've seen this stuff so much, ya know the score by now. IT's just a question of when is it enough? I like visitng renderosity. Nice gallery pics, my friends are here that I don't get to see when I coop myself up over at ODF, good discussions, good info, and, of course, the consistency of the decsion making process here. BUt is it the be all and end all of psoerdom for me? nah. I spend more time at RDNA than here, about the same as at DAZ, and I sneak aroud a few other sites out there now and again cuase it's all cool stuff and for many of the same reasons. but here, particularly, it's the hub, if you will. It's always to check in and check out. Just keep the stays short...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

I really don't care what Renderosity's new "agenda" might be, though I imagine it must be nice to have the time to speculate endlessly about it. All I care about is that with this stupid new decision, I am now in a position where if I buy a Miki texture, I might unknowingly buy a hitler crotch mustache instead of proper pubic hair on a female. Or god forbid, tiny neon pink nipples. Really, this doesn't seem well thought out. DAZ can get away with this kind of policy because they have a 30-day, no questions asked, money-back guarantee. Have any of you ever tried to get your money back from Rendo? It's as painful as shaving your head with a cheese grater while chewing on tinfoil, and that's when it WORKS. Anyways Renderosity: I hope your "sound business decision" makes up for all the people who won't be buying stuff from you because they're afraid of buying what they can't see. Or actually, what I really hope is that you institute a return policy like your competitors. Yep, that'd be okay with me. I'm still mildly insulted that because Miki is asian you think she's a child, but I've got too many other things to worry about to get too worked up over that.

I would like to know specifically what people think (not how they feel) about the categorization of Toons as children I've never thought that The GIRL looks like a child or a teenager. I also have never EVER thought that LaRoo looks like a child or teenager, and I'm kinda shocked to see her on the list. I don't really understand the criteria being used here... I get that The GIRL has big eyes and a pouty mouth along with her enormous breasts and teeny waist and big round hips and curvy bottom and some people think that anything with big eyes is a child, but LaRoo doesn't appear to have ANY characteristics that would make her at all childlike, so who knows. Maybe they ARE saying "toon = child", who knows. Seems peculiar to me, but I don't make the rules and I've never been able to entirely figure out the reasoning being some of the rules around here. I just don't let it bother me and get on with my life and that works for me. I used to care a great deal about Renderosity, but these days, eh. Whatever. Life is much happier for me when I don't give it much weight (or much money). bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Stahlratte, you are exactly right. "Where is the sense in any of that?" There is no sense in it. No one who isn't channeling Scott McClellan or smoking crack would pretend there is. The whole thing would have merely reeked had they not insisted on this last bit of whatever in the name of Groucho it is. If nothing else, I'd be worried about ending up in the dock saying, 'Yes, your honor, we felt that these were underage nude images but we felt they were OK as long as we weren't making money on them...' I bet that'll fly real well with a Bible Belt jury. Nope, this Looney Toons moment is high corporate strategy. The only question is will naked Miki's be banned totally before or in conjunction with the banning of naked anything. They may say they're gonna let the inspectors do their job but the decision's already been made. Naked Vicki will be removed from power and cheering masses will strew Visa chits in the victor's path like flower petals.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Folks Im not here asking wether or not a company can do as they pleas with their own assets, that goes without saying. Renderosity can require all merchant promo pice to include magic pink ponies and yes wed have to follow their rules. Coke had every right to change their formula too. What Im asking is do you agree with the characters placed on the list? Sense the merchants were told the decisions were based on the opinions of the staff with no specific criteria Im thinking this list is highly subjective and questionable. And whats with the sudden anti nude thing anyway if you own Poser in any form you are going to see, work with, and manipulate nude human models. Also Ive never considered Poser as a kids toy. And yes Im not quite so uptight as my 79 year old grandmother in labeling all nudity as porn. I see at least four of the characters on that list as just plane silly but now thats my opinion.

"Im thinking this list is highly subjective and questionable." It is highly subjective. Can't be anything but subjective. Unfortunately, questionable is moot, however. Bitchable about -- well now, that's a whole nother ball of wax :D

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

"The thing that is "wrong" with these images is that they no longer meet the policy for store images." Inane and needlessly paternalistic answer, doesn't even meet the industry standards. What does this change of policy portends? THAT is what most of us are asking and are worried about. When the administration wishes to pacify or placate they describe this site as a community. Few communities accept change without demanding to know the reasons behind the changes and how it will affect the future. "New policy", 'Industry standards' or a plain "'cause" just won't cut it, Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

I think one could say that any Poser model sold as a child or (horrible term) "young adult" could be placed on the list without any subjective decision making.

"Inane and needlessly paternalistic answer, doesn't even meet the industry standards." I agree without reservation. But it's the one they gave us. And it is the answer. "What does this change of policy portends? THAT is what most of us are asking and are worried about." Well, that would require speculation. Which, given that none of us have access to the full range of data, would require assumptions, which, when combined would lead to nothing getting figured out and likely a fair amount of misinformation dispersed (if you'll forgive my own speculation there). "When the administration wishes to pacify or placate they describe this site as a community. Few communities accept change without demanding to know the reasons behind the changes and how it will affect the future." I'll confess I'm horrifically jaded here, and do not, and have not, considered renderosity itself a community for many a long year. Too many of these types of issues have worn me a tad thin, so, I'll have to bow out there as I'll lose what little objectivity I have. The Community is a hell of a lot bigger than just renderosity, and is most assuredly not subject to the whims and caprices of the small team in charge of the store here. "I think one could say that any Poser model sold as a child or (horrible term) "young adult" could be placed on the list without any subjective decision making." Well... Ok, ya got a heck of a point there, lol. This list itself, however, well, that's definitely a subjective thing. Then again, maybe it's just a most likely a subjective thing. Ok -- I, personally, don't see how it could possibly be anything but subjective, as a whole, since someone had to sit and decide "what figures usually look too young in these promos?" THe kids are probably a given (although I've managed to get some decently adult looking Lauras and Lukes, and I wouldn't call some of Thorne and Sarsa's work on the old Milgrils kids), but hey -- ya know, it's a blanket ruling.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

What I don't understand is why the expanded list is not being rolled out to the gallery as well. If Miki is a minor in the store, why is she not being considered one in the gallery? I understand that this is a private site and as a business must make its rules with an eye to what the largest market demands. I don't like it but I do accept it. However, the gesture with regards to the list (not backdating the first promo image rule) is surely made worthless if the rest of the site is not consistent with it.

Sigh. My post vanished. Let's have another go. Bt briefer/blunter.

A lot of adults - America, UK, and so on - associate toons with children. The Bratz, like Barbie and Cindee and so on may be adult "aged" dolls but they also have adult-aged toon depictions. Still, Barbie or Cindee or The Bratz "Toons" doing centerfold renders would cause raised eyebrows I'm sure. Not because the "characters" are underaged, but because their audience is.

So if RO are following the usual interpretation that "toon=for kids" then marking toon figures for "underage treatment" actually makes some kind of sense.

Cheers,

Cliff

Message edited on: 01/01/2006 04:37

If something is forbidden for fear of prosecution this is perhaps understandable. Otherwise its just censorship, an activity undertaken by various misguided governments groups and individuals over the years to no effect whatsoever.

This is just my opinion. I don't think Miki should be on the list. Even if she is petite looking, Stephanie Petite isn't on the list is she? Morrigan?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

I can see the room for arguement with regards to toons, it is, as you say, the 'usual' audience. It doesn't bother me as it will others. Miki seems like an odd choice but it is theirs to make. However, the inconsistency is a shot in the foot. They need to make up their minds as to the direction they want to go and just go that way. DAZ has - very successfuly - and without complaint from it's customers. There are other places to show pictures if you want to show nudes - numerous free galleries (and I'm not thinking of 'rotica).

Maybe it's time to be silly for a few minutes.

Hey she isn't nude? :)

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

I have no input on Store decisions, as I am not Store staff, I am Site staff. In the store, I'm just a regular merchant. ;) Any questions for Store staff should be asked to either ClintH or Debbie M. MS

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

As some day it may happen that an infant must be found, I've got a little list -- I've got a little list, Of youthful seeming meshes whose picture are unsound, And they never would be missed -- they never would be missed. There's a bunch of little babies with their short and chubby limbs -- And all the teenage jailbait posed in textures from The Sims -- Get rid of all the poople who set every thread aflame -- And all the one's who read the posts, they're equally to blame -- Don't tell the users anything, it only gets them pissed -- They'll none of 'em be missed -- they'll none of 'em be missed.

My opinion is that the 'The List' is utter bullshit, pandering to a mythical 'industry standard' that I have yet to see defined =anywhere=. Which industry? Which part of that industry? I do not buy textures sight unseen; I did that -once-....and found the vendor in question had painted the underwear onto the figure, rendering it useless for anything but a static shot as an Sears Catalog model. I understand being careful of the millkids, but a simple offsite link to the texture, with enough watermarking to make it unuseable, would solve that. Claiming that the likes of Miki and GIRL are underaged is ludicrous, and having lived in TN all my life, sounds a lot like: 1) Someone 'got Religion' and is going to use their power to save the heathens, like it or not. 2) A piddly little church group is threatening to call the Southern Baptist Convention on the pervs. 3) A local DA is up for election and is looking for an easy mark to look righteous to the voters 4) There is a delusion that you can somehow get off the Netnanny databases as a pron site once you get onto them (Most of them arrange it so you can't; once tarred, always tarred). And the library access to the store is pretty much a boondoggle, at least here, due to the fact that libraries don't want their IP addresses logged as purchasers of dubious material no matter what it is. 5) It's also very interesting, at least to me, that nine of the lists entries are not DAZ originals....and the ones that are aren't flagship by any stretch. If the plan is to 'cleanse' the site, then just do it. Get it over with so the artists and vendors don't have this pseudo-moralistic Sword of Damocles hanging over their head. The other sites can certainly use the massive influx of talent they would get, and 'rosity could fade into the heat-death of the lowest common denominator, where it seems to want to be.

I don't buy things I can't see, here or at any other site. I find age on polygons laughable, it makes me think of putting age on a block of clay before the final statue is finished. Situations like this and the lack of real 3d info on promos (polycount, wireframe shots, etc), I would suspect is one of the reasons Poser and D/S are constantly bashed by high end 3d artists.

Seems sorta rude to walk into someone's house and >> call them nasty names. And no one has. We have been invited into their store, seen how the store reflects their souls, and called them names. Big difference. This isn't anybody's home. And as you yourself said a few posts later, it isn't a community, in spite of R'osity's smarmy pretense that it is. In a community, one is not a guest but a member, treated with respect and courtesy. We are not neighbors visiting someone's house or the community center, we are customer sheep lined up to be fleeced, and the shearers are, simply enough, not our friends. So lay off the complaints about politeness, Ok? And let's have a rousing chorus of "For we like sheep!" M

Coming from Europe its difficult to understand this discussion. I agree that obvious childporn has to be banned. But most of the figures on the list are supposed to be adults. And the promotional pictures show little more than what a baby sees the first time he sees her/his mother.

"And let's have a rousing chorus of 'For we like sheep!'" - Mickmca

And for a limited time only, all Wellies 50% off in the RMP.

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

Only a perv would consider Wellies fetish gear.... M

Or a scotsman. Oh... same thing. Never mind. ;)

"I am a good person now and it feels... well, pretty much the same as I felt before (except that the headaches have gone away now that I'm not wearing control top pantyhose on my head anymore)"

Monkeysmell

face it guys. Soon, no characters at all will be allowed to be shown in the nude. The next step is to see any form of genitals banned on 3d generated figures. Rosity can say whatever they want, I believe they just fear to be shut down if an angry mom decides to sue them or if a fucked-up politician takes em on just to buff up his new "campaign for morality and thank you for your vote" plans. Tah's their right to try and prevent it, of course. Not to mention that flaming them for it can lead to a simple ban.

We live in a world of fear, insanity and that's it. We'll be lucky if the word "nudity" ain't banned from the dictionnary within ten years. Wait. maybe ten years is a bit optimistic actually...

the choices rosity makes is not even my concern right now, as rosity is just one place. Still, I believe one line will be drawn in the end by the users/buyers/merchants themselves whatever the community will be, and some might migrate to create their own shops or communities just to get a brake from all the pressure.

I think things on this old planet are really getting out of hands.

Message edited on: 01/01/2006 12:13

I am quite serious here, not at all sarcastic... a practical solution?

Would it be better for the site/store to shut down for a couple months and re-open as a Bible Belt approved "Family Values Site"? With better software maybe and a new IP address or whatever to get past the filters. Just keep a legacy database of previous purchases for download please.

How much would this cost? Would this be easier for people to accept?

Does anyone else have the capital to open a truly viable restriction free non-porn site/store that takes independent vendors on a product test basis to pick up the glamor/pin-up/realism market for "mature" "artistic" "non-porn" use? "R-rated" I guess? Are the motion picture ratings standard and articulated?

I have no idea what money is involved in such things... would Renderosity want to do the spin-off themselves or is the cost totally prohibitive?

Would it be better for the site/store to shut down for a couple months and re-open as a Bible Belt approved "Family Values Site"? Not real practical. In a rough economy, the last thing you want to do is give up 1/6 of your already reduced income.

"Does anyone else have the capital to open a truly viable restriction free non-porn site/store that takes independent vendors on a product test basis to pick up the glamor/pin-up/realism market for "mature" "artistic" "non-porn" use?" Several already exist. Inclusive of Odd Ditty Foundry. Might not have much in place, but that doesn't mean we/they wouldn't. " "R-rated" I guess? Are the motion picture ratings standard and articulated?" They are. Once this current change goes into effect, RO will be able to pick up a PG-13 for the store, and will have and X for the galleries in general. Exciting, isnt it?

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

The are two ways to deal with dictature, bow your head and kneel as an obedient sheep, or find a way how to survive and there are many ways to do it without any problem. Worst that censorship is the auto-censorship, you start to believe that is censored what is not censored at all.

Stupidity also evolves!

It is censorship but it is by a privately owned site - they have a right to this and we have agreed that in return for the services offered here, we keep within their terms of service. Not bowing my head means not using the site. When I can buy elsewhere, I do. But all in all, that's just not always possible - many things are only available here. If the merchants choose to sell at other venues, then I will buy from those. Otherwise, there is nought to be done.

I was not refering to members or merchants, I was refering to Renderosity.

Stupidity also evolves!

Sorry. Far too little sleep and not enough attention. Frustration shared.

stahlratte commented "Make no mistake. They WILL ban nudity from the gallery and from the forums, too, because they have to." and MorriganShadow replied "1. They're not affecting the galleries. 2. The changes to the nudity guidelines within the Renderosity MarketPlace are due to changing trends within the industry and it provides us with a much larger target market." Sounds to me like the death toll of Rosity, after where is it going to end???? I agree with stahlratte after all they dont want to please their current members, and i for one will go if this Big brother attitude moves to such a point. Perhaps they should think about adding an area for us who like it the way it is...or dont they want us????? I will know when my gallery images dissapear, and then so shall i. Perhaps we should all be looking for a new home, that shows that it likes us...

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

My opinion of "the list" : I utterly despise the "GIRL" Dont care to see nekkid promo pics I utterly despise "AIKO" Dont care to see nekkid promo pics I utterly despise "Hiro" Dont care to see nekkid promo pics I utterly despise "Ichiro" Dont care to see nekkid promo pics uhhh who the hell is "Krystal"?? uhhh who the hell is "LaRoo"?? and Mikki OK I guess being actually attractive and REALISTICLY asian looking is too much for **Some** people (*Shrugs*) Mill Kids ???....Pfftt!! not my genre plus already covered by the previous child nudity guidlines "Rosy Cheeks Lina"??? wha ??? who ??? Terai Yuki???......dont own/use or care EJ??? shes based on the horrible abomination P5judy isnt she?? then ban her altogether :-) in closing id like to say DEATH to INJ/REM/CHAN/VIS/DELTA unimess!!and long live Stonemason and Sanctumart!! you may return to your regularly schedualed righteous indignation

My website

YouTube Channel

I've said it before - I hope they're paying you for the promo pics. I don't recognise the vehicle though, it looks good, could you let us know where and what?

Attached Link: in lightwave format

found this free gem here :-)

My website

YouTube Channel

OT: where could be found/purchased the jinroh like armor you used

Riddokun:

That's the Grim armor by SanctumArt, sold exclusively at his website.

www.sanctumart.com

And before you balk at the price, take a good look through the 45 promo pics on the site to see all you'd be getting.

Actually, it's beginning to look as if what we really -need- is an independant site that does nothing but keep track of where talent has decided to hang hat at. That would effectively deal with the 'ease of shopping' rosity provides (and avoid accusations of business infringement, as the talent that remains here could be pointed to as well). It would have to be done by someone apolitical, who doesn't give a damn about any grudges or old tussles. But that way everyone would come as close to winning as they could.

there's an idea!

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

QUOTE
What is your opinion of the list?
/ QUOTE

My opinion is articulated and I will try to summarize it in points:

My opinion on the whole puritan trend is "3S" that it is sad, sick, and silly.

Sad, because it is sad to see the distorted vision of morals and ethics that the public opinion of the world's current leader nation's is more and more obviously having. And for us not living in the USA, the fear is that this wave of puritanism may come to us somehow soon, because the USA culture is much influential over most of the world today. So, big fear.
Sick, because in my opinion, unless there is an explicit sexual or porn reference in images, it is just simply sick to see immorality in a nude image. The sickness is not in the art of the artist, it is in the eye of the censor. Which is to say that the censors ban whatever they recognize as sick in their own sick minds.
Silly, because to see any age truth in cartoon figures such as Laroo or the Girl, can not be regarded in any other way than silly. And judging age by breast size is also silly: Today I had New Year's lunch with a grand-aunt of mine who is 80 years old and has (and always had) barely the breast size of a skinny 14er. And on the other hand, I remember one summer holiday in 1979 when a girl in our group had two big boobs every one of us males were fantasizing about - and she was 15.

I think that blaming this on Renderosity is short-sighted. I am sure that Renderosity does not want to censor, they only want to make better business and they follow the main stream trend because it is obviously more productive. The main trend of morals in the USA do not depend, nor is determined by, Renderosity's choices. So if you hav eto blame this on someone, blame it on the current powers-that-be and on those who voted them in the elections. And try to remember this when you will go to vote for the next elections.
From the profit point of view, it is obviously more lucrative to lose the sales of two open-minded artists than to lose the sales of twenty narrow-minded barbiedolls handlers. This must be a fact otherwise I am sure that Renderosity admins would not have set such restrictive rules.
In all cases, Renderosity is a private venture, they can set any rules they want and no one merchant is obliged to like their rules, i.e. if we don't like the rules we are obviously free to go selling somewhere else.
I am afraid that these rules will damage some texture artists much. Warezing the poser products is a long time problem and this is going to make it worse, because getting a warezed copy of a texture will be the only way to properly and thoroughly check a texture set before purchase. More and more people will end up getting a warez copy to see what a texture really looks like, and once they have it, not all of them will have the honesty to get back to the store and buy what they already have on their hard disks.
Also, we will get more and more after-sale returns and chargebacks, because the new rules will in a way entitle people to claim back their money since they had to "buy blind" important parts of the products. And I am afraid that more and more people will use this as a strategy to get the goods for nothing (because again, once it's on their harddisks, whoever grants us merchants that they will delete them after return?). A strategy that may prove useful for those items they could not momentarily get from warez sources.

Message edited on: 01/01/2006 19:29

I think the problem is not their desire to win over the .001% of the population who despite being reduced to surfing from the library still have credit cards and money to spend. It's not following some "industry standard" that remains (conveniently) undefined. It's not trying to be a poor man's Daz. The problem is, they started out saying they were on thing and now they are trying to morph into another. They catered to one of the most independent, opinionated, (some would say neurotic :-) groups of folks imaginable and said hey, this is a place for you, grow, be creative, build a "community," just don't burn the place down. Now, they've decided that's incompatible with their perfectly legitimate desire to make money...and people are chafing. The schizophrenic status quo is not viable. The attempt to finesse and drag out this issue has resulted in rules which are increasingly illogical with each new iteration. Capitalist apologias notwithstanding, even business should have some logic beyond 'we can, therefore we do.' Anyone who is going to be surprised when the "industry standards" suddenly require all pablum all the time, should retire to a wicker basket now and spare themselves the trauma. If little old Renderotica can have a separate G rated site, one would think that a "premier" site could manage somehow. The economy, by all reports, even non-Fox News ones, seems to be doing fine. Personally, I think it may be less about the extra bucks and more about asserting power. Not to get political but there seems to be a lot of that going on lately among certain classes. The only possible reason I can see for the herky jerky implementation of the new world order here is that they're not sure the Disney model is going to bring in more geld than it loses and they don't want to have to do too big a climb down. So, consider your purchasing options in close consultation with your values. If such consideration leads you to spend money your elsewhere while continuing to avail yourselves of the excellent free services here then I suppose it's a net loss for someone.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

little dragon:

i didnt balk at the price, dont start make me saying things i didnt...

if the thing worths the price stated, i wont criticize, i will just blame my purse for not being filled up enough to get it for a while, but it will end up there :)

Anyway, it's for 3ds max, it's not for poser, so i'm a bit out of league here ...

i asked cause i remembered someone (i think taruru from cyobitlabs... we all miss you taruru... at least you dont see how mad the world is going to) made a jinroh lookalike picture and/or armor too already.. so i just wanted to check if it was the same that you textured better, or if there were a new product based on similar look

thanx

ps: and now folks a little joke:

Puritanism is the haunting fear that someone, somewhere, MIGHT be happy :)

Message edited on: 01/02/2006 06:20

So if you hav to blame this on someone, blame it >> on the current powers-that-be This is not about "blame." "Blame" is childish. My mother handled blame appropriately: Jerry [my brother] did it. Well, why didn't you STOP him? Why indeed. This is not about blame; it's about fixing the problem. R'osity doesn't have to do this, any more than anyone else has to participate in totalitarianism. Hell, the consequences here aren't going into a wood chipper or burning at the stake. (Though one of my neocon acquaintances --to stretch that word-- was arguing a while back for grisly public executions as the solution for something or other. Stay tuned, Taliban West.) They choose to go along with it because they care more about profits than principles. Not because they'll go broke if they don't capitulate, but because they can make more money by pandering to the REAL PTB. So show them that's a misconception. >> they're not sure the Disney model is going to >> bring in more geld than... Your post hits each nail deftly on the head. (And much more temperately than mine, but then, Savonarola was more temperate than I am.) A few years ago, my son was with me when I was headed for a WalMart. He was obviously unhappy that I was going in. In fact, he waited in the car, as if I were visiting an adult book store or something equally repellent. When I came back, I told him I didn't "like" WalMart, but their prices were better and I needed something I could only get there (in this case, a brand of dog biscuits). He explained to me why he refuses to spend a nickel in WalMart. Most of his reasons are now more widely known -- their hateful treatment of employees, their appalling record on environmental issues, their vicious contracts with suppliers, their gangsterish handling of local governments, their donations to totalitarian causes (good for business, you know). Their prices are better because they give nothing to the community and take a tiny bit less than others do -- and keep it all for themselves. Great business model; nobody I want in my neighborhood. He was right. I didn't know all those things, but once I did, I refused to shop there again. Haven't been inside one in nearly two years. And the dog doesn't seem to miss the biscuits. Maybe I "needed" them; he didn't. Every so often, someone at work will give me the "I hate Walmart too, but I can't afford not to shop there." The last one is 40, making $70K/year, has no kids, and drives a brand new car. Spare me. I pay an extra few cents a purchase to buy from independent groceries and maintain a membership at CostCo for access to bargains. I don't need to save five cents on a bag of potato chips so badly that I will give a buck to Walmart. Vote with your wallet. R'osity is counting on you to lack the integrity to quit shopping here. Americans pay a lot of lip service to "values" like integrity. Let's see if you actually have any. ...your turn, Mr. Savonarola.... M

@Riddokun:

Anyway, it's for 3ds max, it's not for poser, so i'm a bit out of league here ...

No.. They do have a Poser version too :-)

"Do you honestly think that a site will consider certain models 'teens' for store shots but not for gallery images? LOL. How naive do you have to be? I'll let you in on a not so secret, secret, it may not happen for a month or two or six, but that change is coming." I reckon it'll be September. apologies to anyone who's already said that but I couldn't read everything in this thread as my eyes are still not right after the new years eve party.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Exactly! Even if there is no addenda here and they truly have no intentions to carry this to the galleries. They are, by their own hand, creating a precedence in this list which could in-fact be used by outside individuals to show that Renderosity is allowing images of characters which they them selves have listed as being underage. Hello McFly!!!

Well I already stated my opinion that its censorship (and selective at that). They have their principles and I have mine; I therefore elect not to purchase anything here for the time being while I see where this all leads. Sorry if this would affect the merchants but you know the old adage about eggs in baskets.

Attached Link: http://www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2004/shrek2.html

Some time ago I bookmarked this review of "Shrek 2" on a "family" oriented site:

http://www.christiananswers.net/spotlight/movies/2004/shrek2.html

Do yourself a favour and READ what this people have to say about SHREK.
These are the same people that decide wether Renderosity is blacklisted from publically funded computers and censorware like NetNanny.
And these are the same people Rendo wants to sell their wares to.

Do you really think they will let their precious offspring surf to this site if there is even the slightest chance that they could catch a peek of a nekkid Vicky or Mike ?

These people HATE you. Because in their worldview YOU ARE A SINNER.
Everytime you render a nekkid Vicky or even worse, a nekkid Mike, YOU SIN.

Do whatever you think you have to.

Sell here, sell somewhere else, I dont care.
You want their money ? Good, go ahead and take it.

Ill only ask that you BE AWARE what this is really all about and dont tell me after its to late you didnt know what was happening.

stahlratte

"...I cant help wondering why a movie so carefully targeted at young children includes a transvestite bartender, Pinocchio in womens underwear and Donkey as a playboy..."

Stupidity also evolves!

"i didnt balk at the price, dont start make me saying things i didnt... if the thing worths the price stated, i wont criticize, i will just blame my purse for not being filled up enough to get it for a while, but it will end up there :)" The armour set is $70 USD which shocked alot of poser users Little dragon was just politely warning you BEFORE YOU went to the website "i asked cause i remembered someone (i think taruru from cyobitlabs... we all miss you taruru... at least you dont see how mad the world is going to) made a jinroh lookalike picture and/or armor too already.. so i just wanted to check if it was the same that you textured better, or if there were a new product based on similar look" I have the old tauraru "jin-roh armor" it was a nice freebie in its day but i assure you there is NO comparison to this new "grim" armor From Sanctumart....NO COMPARISON ;-)

My website

YouTube Channel

One of the problems with child porn laws is that the word "children" in the law can have a specialised, rather odd, definition fot that purpose. I am led to understand that, for this purpose, both the USA and UK define "children" to mean "under-18". The UK makes possession of indecent images illegal if they look like photographs of children. In the UK, you can lawfully marry at 16, so a photograph or a married couple having sex can be child porn. The world is getting crazy. The UK definition used to set the age at 16, so child porn was, apart from anything else, pictures of criminal acts. Which made some sort of sense. The change in the age limit was slipped through in the last couple of years. The result is that some material which is legal in the US is illegal in the UK. It used to be that some material legal in the UK was illegal in the USA. It is routinely claimed here that the child porn which is the target of police action in the UK involves the abuse of pre-puberty individuals, what we'd all call children. Medically, this is paedophilia. Having sex with an adolescent is medically different. But the law, and the press, don't make the same distinctions. I don't like trusting a system which depends on law enforcement choosing not to prosecute certain acts. So I can understand why Renerosity would want to set up a list, but the execution seems flawed. There are under-age characters with Poser, which aren't mentioned. And the inclusion of Miki and EJ are, on the face of it, ridiculous.

*"Do you honestly think that a site will consider certain models 'teens' for store shots but not for gallery images? LOL. How naive do you have to be? I'll let you in on a not so secret, secret, it may not happen for a month or two or six, but that change is coming."

I reckon it'll be September.*

Lucifer is probably right. Isn't September the traditional time for the Rosity Pitchfork Party? Others have Labor Day picnics, we have flame wars... ;-)

More realistically, doesn't the US have mid-term elections in November? September would be a good time for politicians to start creating scare stories for which,if re-elected, they have the solution.

The only way to test the "truth" of the matter would be if there were another site like Renderosity but without the restrictions. Now theres a thought.

"Savonarola" Had to look that one up. I'm more of a Sebastian Castillio type myself :-) Maybe this is just 'the way we live now,' to borrow from Trollope. Maybe grown women who become children and meshes that become real are just part of the miraculous transformation of modern society. Need an Aiko texture, sure, here it is on Vicky. Hell, surely all those obese thong-sporting spectacles on the beach must have bought their clothes that way. And to think the old folks used to get way bent outa shape over a few pence on tea. "September would be a good time for politicians to start creating scare stories for which,if re-elected, they have the solution." Yeah, we're overdue for another iteration of CDA/COPA/Whatever censorbait we can come up with FTC (For the Children). The fact that one rarely if ever heard Poser mentioned in the great debates and Falwell hasn't been touting untextured renders of the P3NudeGirl as "hyper-real child pornography," probably indicates just how far off the mainstream radar it is. Just another reason why the mass market push may well be a self-inflicted severing of the carotids. The anti-NVIATWAS faction here irritates me sometimes but at least most of them (I hope) don't think Shrek is promoting the radical homosexual agenda. 'Come in folks, enjoy our nice family atmosphere and mind you don't trip over Mike's dong.'

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

I've been working on the virgin birth morph all day. Surprinsingly easy if you're willing to believe... "...What's bred in the bone cannot fail me to fly and Olivette's breezy so goodbye now. Goodbye." From the once banned James Joyce's "Ballad of joking Jesus"

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

The only way to test the "truth" of the matter would be if there were another site like Renderosity but without the restrictions. Well then, (she says, a grin and a whistle not far from her lips) come on over to odd ditty foundry and hang and toss in a shingle. innocently wanders off...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=2522739

*Snicker* Hmmm. Seems that there are people who aren't extremists who consider Renderosity an "Adult Art" site... http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=2522739 ..damn, but that's a hard moniker to escape, ya know?

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

"Bedtime stories", too. Sounds like Goldilocks is going to get more than porridge...

You know what bothers me about stuff like this? Regardless of the changes, the PTB rarely, if ever, makes an announcement when a change is made and says "We're going to make a change. Here's what we're changing, here's why we're changing it...any questions?"

In another thread one of the forum mods said the change was made to keep up with industry standards. I'd like to know what industry standards they were talking about.

What criteria was used to select the figures that were included in the "list"? Is there some significance to the fact that Anime and caricature figures were added to said list? Why is this change only affecting the marketplace and not the galleries? What is it about these figures that makes it ok to display them nude in the galleries but not in the 2nd and 3rd promo renders?

Of course I don't really expect to get any answers to these questions...although as members of this "community" and as customers of the marketplace we should be entitled to them.

Of course if we were respected by the PTB as members and customers, they would have announced the change and answered all those questions before the change was made. I'm neither for nor against the changes. I'm not asking that the PTB ask our permission to make changes. I'm just asking for a little respect. If you're going to call this place an Art Community, then start treating the members of this community with a little respect. Feel free to make whatever changes you deem necessary, but have the courage and the dignity to alert us and give us an explanation when you make them!

The changes to the nudity guidelines within the Renderosity MarketPlace are due to changing trends within the industry and it provides us with a much larger target market." actually, this is totally wrong. Industry standards generally call for low poly/low file size for animation and morphing ease. I don't see many "low poly" models used in Poserverse. Also, run over to CG talk and see how the "industry" at large feels about Poser. Since this is primarily a Poser site it is very hard to accept "industry standards" as an excuse for this latest.

Hi folks, What criteria was used to select the figures that were included in the "list"? Is there some significance to the fact that Anime and caricature figures were added to said list? Why is this change only affecting the marketplace and not the galleries? What is it about these figures that makes it ok to display them nude in the galleries but not in the 2nd and 3rd promo renders? As stated some days ago by MorriganShadow, please contact store admin if you have further queries. That's store@renderosity.com Cheers, Karen Poser Mod

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Karen, I reckon store admin are chicken. General question: has anyone asked them. If so, have they had a reply that's more than just an acknowledgement? I don't want to know the details of the reply: that might be considered private info.

To equate nudity with porn is laughable and dangerous. It does not reflect a trend within the industry or the art world, but may represent an attempt by some to impose what they euphemistically call "their values" on the general public and on the artistic communities. This has been going on for years. The methods these people use resemble those used by pornographers; blackmail, extortion, threats and the illusory promise of a form of redemption. The same power patterns exploited by the pornographer to ensnare and exploit their victims. Now I know that blacklisting is an old American tradition but damn it, take a look at the harm that it has caused in the past before adopting it as a policy for the future. Learn from the past mistakes. Never allow pornography to invade this site but don't let the maudlin and hysterical fringe redefine nudity in an artistic context to mean anything like porn. That's simply outrageous. Good night and good luck Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Hi all,

I'm very pleased to let you know that "the list" has been rethought and revised.

The merchants should have all received an email on this by now but as there has been such spirited debate wink in this forum I wanted to let all you guys know too :-)

I'll quote directly from the admins:
SERIOUS discussion revolved around the "child like" meshes, and once again, your input was very crucial to the decisions made. The ONLY child like figures that will not be allowed to be shown nude are the Mill Kids and Rosy Cheeks Lina, and any other mesh that is a known child. The Girl, Aiko3, Miki, etc... still do appear to be young to a lot of us, but after evaluating their body shapes, we feel as though they are "of age".

So... Aiko, Miki, Terai Yuki, etc are now okay for nude promos again (with a small caveat - see last section.) Anime/Toon does not automatically equal child, nor does Asian!

This means that any products put in holding due to these issues will be returned as soon as possible (as long as they meet the other criteria of course.) That process is underway as we speak.

Also the rule about 80% boob coverage has been relaxed. As long as the nipples/aureolae aren't visible, we're not going to sit there with a protractor and a calculator worrying about if the bikini needs another row of stitches ;-) Also butts will be fine in the Daz bikini or similar model, but no thongs or G-strings.

Note about the child/toon thing. If you morph a character to appear like a child toon then you would still be asked to cover them up. Using Aiko doesn't get you a "free pass" in that way. However it no longer means an automatic "child" classification.

I would like to say how pleased I am with this outcome and I am very happy with those people in this forum who have made their voices heard rationally, sensibly and logically. There are those people who think that this forum is "a bunch of hotheads" or "rabble rousers". We are people from all walks of life, many countries across the globe and wildly different political viewpoints. Yet the threads over the last few days have proved that we can discuss and debate without descending into attacks and flames, even when feelings have run high (including my own!) I am very proud to be Moderating the Poser forum right now :-)

(end of oscar acceptance speech LOL)

I hope this helps to show that Renderosity does listen to you as customers and as community members and that we are committed to providing the right environment for us all to grow stronger.

Karen :-D

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

I'm glad to see this outcome I'm not here for drama I just want a strong marketplace here at Renderosity. Its also good to see that Renderosity listens to its members and merchants.

"for we are fearfully and wonderfully made" Psalm 139:14 Thank you. Q

Un coup de dés jamais n'abolira le hazard
S Mallarmé

Thank you, sincerely. "...your input was very crucial to the decisions made." All the more reason to maybe solicit input prior to making these decisions? "...still do appear to be young to a lot of us, but after evaluating their body shapes, we feel as though they are "of age"." So body shape wasn't taken into account (or was seen differently) until outside input pointed out that the body shapes were plainly adult? Honestly, I'm not ungateful; just the opposite--I'm grateful after every adjustment of a bad policy. It just seems like a crazy way to do things. 1. Start with a 10 and begin removing images/products. 2. Howls of protest 3. Explain policy 4. Explanation generates more protest 5. Back off the 10 to an 8.5 in a magnanimous gesture 6. Sighs of gratitude I think I know why they do it but let's just fade to black with sighs of gratitude--once more.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Well this is a refreshing dose of pragmatism. So child stuff (as defined) is a nono, fair enough. The rest of it reminds me of the pornography cases in the UK back in the 70s when Soho store owners were in and out of court every week and the judiciary plus the great and the good scrutinised 1000s of magazines trying to determine acceptable %s of genital exposure (same thing with sex and violence in movies). In the fullness of time demonstrated to be a rather pointless exercise. Nowadays most things are OK unless they are "gratuitous" in nature ie not for artistic,informational,educational effect.

Just to note from Dodger:

"Anna and Seth, the Aeon Teens, are 18.
18 is still teen, but it's also legal age of consent to have nippular regions.

If anyone questions this, you have my word as their father and creator deity. Furthermore, if necessary, I can model their IDs and have authority to mark them as official.

Raphael and Mary, the Aeon Adolescents, are not 18. They are kids, as is Robin. However, it should be noted that Raphael, the Aeon Adolescent Boy, includes a Halfling morph as part of the package that, when applied, means he is over 60 (or roughly 25 in human years).
Mickey, the Aeon Dwarf, is short, but well over 18. He's just a midget.

Ghul, the Aeon Creep, is some thirty thousand years old.

Just wanted to clear those ages up."

Message edited on: 01/06/2006 15:07

I'm the asshole. You wanna be a shit? You gotta go through ME.

I could not put it better.

Weeell... I'd kinda want to know what I'm getting when I buy a texture and Aiko never struck me as a kid, but hey, that's just me. Heheh... if they change the galleries rules... You know... I couldn't care less about the gallery anymore to be honest. 99.99999% of the time I don't look. Of those 0.00001% that I do look, I find more worthwhile things to look at in any gallery except the poser gallery. I don't mean to sound like a snob, but... It's very rare these days that I actually see an image in there that I think is really great. And when I do find one, I will mark it, rate it, comment it. Most times I'll miss them. Probably because any good image is there for like.. 0.35 seconds and pushed into oblivion of page 10 by the 200 pictures of not-so-greatness that are posted just after it. Shame really. In a way, I wish there were a 'Masters' Gallery. And to get in, you'd have to be invited in before you could post there. People like Toxicangel would belong in there. :) Totally off topic, I know, but lets be honest here - how many of you actually go and ever look at the gallery on a regular basis?

Silke

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: What is your opinion of the list?