I just about lost it this morning, got into a discussion about art and I was told than my images did not have merit as art because I use prefabricated packages and models, that I do not create, just pose. I fired back that I am no different from a director or photographer, that I take the elements to create the image, that it is an outlet for me to express myself. I found it rubbed me wrong and just wanted to rant some. I lover Poser, I love all the people that create material for Poser. Thank you.

The best thing you can do is just walk away from people like that. Or better yet, suggest they try using Poser and see how the do. Some seem to think that Poser equals "click and poof..art". Best to not let those types get under your skin. Art is about being creative, be it using dryer lint or newspapers mixed with glue, paints and palette, or Poser and a computer. Unfortunately there are many ignorant and closed minded people out there that think the only type of "art" is that created by paints on a canvass. Too bad for them because they miss out on a lot in life.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Congratulations! You are the first one this year that stirs in that murky marsh of opinions. BUT: now you must take care of chips, beer, wine, sweets, etc for all of us. I'll have a Chablis and some dolmas please. Art? what's that? is it funny?

From the web: "Art, in its broadest meaning, is the expression of creativity or imagination, or both."

We have just had a similar argument over at another website.I am admin at an art group over there for 3d art. Now this can be anything to do with 3d. Not just poser. But another 3d art group that just specialised in modelling called poser users...."poser whores who just point and click."(that was the mild insult) We all know that poser isnt just point and click. It is a lot more than that. For a start without an imagination you aint got a hope in hell whether you can point or click or not. You all dont need me to go into the hows & whys.....we know it's art and we know a lot of traditional artists recognise it as art too. As far as I am concerned thats good enough for me. If they wanna be petty then so be it. If you dont like my work just dont look at it! We actually landed up getting an apology off the group involved and the retracted what they said. Which was kinda astonishing lol.....

"I didn't lose my mind, it was mine to give away"

Old joke: How many 3DS MAX guys does it take to change a lightbulb? - Only one, but he'll be a long time making the bulb.

I'd give a really good reply on their opinion of Poser artwork but I'd probably be banned from here for swearing.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

3D renders are as much art as is Photography. A render is a captured image yes, but it still requires the same care and setup a photograpger would. Photographers don't make people, sew the clothes, build the props, or make up the models either, but they are still considered artists.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

myeh, heard it a million times before, and will, no doubt, hear it another million. was this an "artist" you were argueing with, or a "critic"? must wash my fingers now after typing the C word...i feel so dirty ;-)

 "That which doesn't kill you is probably re-loading"

I've had people at Science Fiction and Fantasy Convention artshows go on and on how 3D rendered work is not art and how awful and low quality it is and then spend an equal amount of time telling me how much they like my art (which is all done in Poser 4 and Photoshop.) And when I tell them tghhat they tend to do a lot of really fast back-pedalling. ;-) Most of them simply have no concept of either what the programs can do/can not do or how much work it is to learn to use properly - they think there is a "make art" button in the program.

"Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will piss on your computer." -- Bruce Graham

Yes Poser "art" is just like photography! As you, no doubt, know all photographers use the same couple of models, which they buy, the lights, which they buy, the clothes the models wear, which they buy, the pose which the model takes, which they buy, the background, which they buy, the hair style, which they buy. I've seen very few Poser images in the galleries which show any evidence of "expression of creativity or imagination" Poser is a hobby akin to train spotting ie watching and cataloguing someone elses efforts. Poser is of course a money maker because most users are incapable of origional work which of course keeps Renderosity very happy. There are a very small number of artists who use Poser along with other mediums but they are very few. Because a small number of artists use Poser does not mean that using Poser makes you an Artist as is self evident if you visit the Poser gallery.

byAnton... that is as good an answer as I have ever heard. Not that I feel totally easy about the "appropriation" inherent to photography. Something I battled desperately with Photography as my "minor" discipline in grad school.

" 3D renders are as much art as is Photography. Photographers don't make people, sew the clothes, build the props, or make up the models either, but they are still considered artists."

Yes, but the things you just mentioned are exactly why photography itself had struggled for centuries for validity as an artform. To many people, especially in the late 19th/early 20th century, photography was regarded as little more than a reproductive medium, and the photographers were considered more along the lines of technicians.

Poser seems to be viewed in the same light that Photography had been for many years, which isn't really unusual. So maybe 100 years from now, Poser will get the same type of respect in it's medium? ;-) Message edited on: 01/12/2006 08:01

---

Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Wow, this struck a nerve, but I am calm now. Some of you already know me and know that Poser came into my life in 9/05. "Point and Click???" Yes, that is what a lot of people think. Oh, no, no, no.....it is a LOT of hard work. I have dreamt of being an artist since I can remember. There used to be an ad in the back of my teen mags where you could send in your drawing of a pic they were showing and you could get to go to art school. I drew that profile until I was blue in the face. I thought I had perfected it....but I guess not. My mom is an acrylic artist and my son used to draw in different mediums. I wanted so much to do that. I couldn't even get the One-Stroke art right. Poser is the answer to a lot of prayers. I have the imagination and no talent. But, I did get a gift...understanding computers, programs, etc. Well, on a scale of 1 to 1 million of Poser knowledge, I am still in the negatives, but I cannot tell you how happy I am, and thankful, for what I do know. That's how easy it is!!! NOT!!!!!!!!!! Digital artists have many of the same things to learn as manual artists...shadowing, lighting, proper placement...the list is long... My scrapbooking group thinks I am taking pictures of things and tubing them. I might take days to do one thing...I have NOTHING against tubers...it is very hard...but it is usually of copyrighted art and that is something I am totally against!!!!!!!!!! Just one more thing....I am very thankful to all of the free products, the very generous artists, the reasonably priced products, and, oh my goodness....THE TUTORIALS!!!!

......... and just a corollary to what's been said - I've used Poser for just over a year now, and am learning to make my first body textures - I just wish it was as easy as painting/pastel/acrylic work! We'd all be knocking out textures every 2 minutes. Poser is just another aspect of our artistic expression.

My aspiration: to make a decent Poser Render I'm an Oldie, a goldie, but not a miracle worker :-)

Gallery

Freebies

Music Vids

"So maybe 100 years from now, Poser will get the same type of respect in it's medium? ;-)"< Why wait? hehe. Real artists don't slam other mediums. It comes from jealously, insecurity or a need to assert reaffirmations of ones own art. People like that must be summarily dismissed. On a side note, I asked a friend of mine once, who manages a museum, what makes art valuable. this is basically what she said: "Any form of expression, regardless of medium, can be justified as art. Aside from talent, the worth of art is often weighed, though not admittedly, by it's excusivity, meaning those art pieces that are unique or crafted from rare or valuable materials are more apt for consideration into antiquity. That which is mass-produced, or can be mass produced in equal quality to the original, is seem as common and not neccesarily precious."

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

(where is my 'Make Art' button?)

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

""Any form of expression, regardless of medium, can be justified as art. Aside from talent, the worth of art is often weighed, though not admittedly, by it's excusivity, meaning those art pieces that are unique or crafted from rare or valuable materials are more apt for consideration into antiquity. That which is mass-produced, or can be mass produced in equal quality to the original, is seem as common and not neccesarily precious."" It seems that is often the very argument made against using Poser... that it's mass-produced, or can easily be mass-produced, making it less valuable. For example, many people who purchase certain items can produce similar renders containing many of the same elements: the same textures, clothing, lighting, etc. Let's face it, art is USUALLY judged within it's own medium... meaning, you don't often see people saying Bach was more of an artist than Van Gogh, because it's like comparing apples to oranges. The point being, unlike Photography, which really had no way to contradict it's own legitimacy from within, Poser will always have an up-hill battle for respect within it's own medium, so long as there are those out there who choose to produce their 3D works from scratch (modelling, rigging, texturing, etc.). Of course, you CAN transcend the medium, but that depends entirely on the individual.

---

Tools :  3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Casette "(where is my 'Make Art' button?)" My "make art" button is right beside the "make big boobs" button!! LOL!!! G

The GR00VY GH0ULIE!

You are pure, you are snow
We are the useless sluts that they mould
Rock n roll is our epiphany
Culture, alienation, boredom and despair

Real artists don't slam other mediums. It comes from jealously, insecurity or a need to assert reaffirmations of ones own art. Exactly! Very well put! :)

Lucie
finfond.net
finfond.net (store)

Oh Oh ... i know this topic from a while ago somewhere else... I say ... the name ART is made by sale's people. Galleries, auctioneers, and all those other people who make money from other people's work. ALL that people make is ART !! . but to make a difference to why you pay 100.000 $ or not is what makes it ART "in the money makers mind". If you make something and you ask 100.000 for it they say Get Real.... But then The gallerie called it ART and like magic people pay those amounts of money for it. When Rembrand was alife he was not "a Artist" he was what we now call a Photographer. After he was long gone some other dude found out he can make big bucks of that old painting. AND yes then in one second it was ART. So art is called art when people make lots of money of it. Just MHO or my 2 euro cents

Not used anymore

FWIW, I had some pictures in an art gallery a couple of years back and one artist wanted to get Vicky's number to book her!

And my pieces were labelled as 'digital artwork' - he just thought it photoshopped (I'd only made it B&W and had them printed at a professional print shop)

Martin

Message edited on: 01/12/2006 09:08

if art was guaranteed from what tools you used or what profession you practiced, hollywood would be out of a job in selling us films in a world where everything is squeaky clean, everybody is nice and slim and good looking, etc etc etc... Talent makes art. Everything else is just a tool to make it easier and/or faster.

still hooked to real life and enjoying the siesta!
Visit my blog! :D
Visit my portfolio! :D

Heard it over and over again. To me now it sounds like a bunch of smoke. I know how hard it is to put together an image in Poser and tweek on it for days and play with lighting until I get something I like. I don't care about these people anymore that says it isn't art. Someone posted this picture a while ago. I'm sorry I don't know who, but I saved it and I'm putting it up again. I wish Poser were that easy!

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

Wonderful image, Latexluv! Now THAT is art!!!

still hooked to real life and enjoying the siesta!
Visit my blog! :D
Visit my portfolio! :D

Sorry, couldn't resist another two cents. *can you smell the sarcasm on my breath* "And a 3d movie isn't a real movie." This is a still from Final Fantasy 7: Advent Children. I bought the movie from Japan with English subtitles. It's some of the most breath-taking 3d I've seen to date.

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

How many Poser artists does it take to change a light bulb?
Only one, but they have to
Load the light bulb
Select one of 25 transmap materials to determine the color of the glass
Load the uvmap for the filament
load the material for the contacts and screw..NOTE, this only works on Millenium Bulbs, unless you have CR2-Edison Bulb Editor, or Widget Wizard
Load the Interior light set for the Internal light dome
Load the morphable socket, that matches the Millenium bulb, that goes in the house that Jack built..;)
Hey, I have Poser, so I can have fun with it..

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

The problem is that people on both sides of the fence constantly mix up "art" with "craftmanship".

While you can make real "art" with (any version of) Poser, it is undeniable that modelling, mapping, texturing and rigging meshes from scratch takes more TECHNICAL SKILLS than buying Vicky3 and a character pack.

The "but we do composition work instead" argument is invalid, because the MAX/MAYA folks have to do this, too, ON TOP of the modeling work they already did.

The "originality" argument may or may be not valid, as on the one hand you can heavily morph any given mesh in Poser, and on the other hand even if you have the technical skills to create a mesh from scratch in MAX, it doesnt mean that you arent just copying somone elses work or idea.

But we Poser users must admit that many renders show V3s or M3s that are not morphed beyond recognition and that many works only differ in details, so there is an impression of arbitrariness to the outside observer.

But again, there is a lot of "kitsch" or "soft porn" among professional CGI, too. ^-^

Poser gave CGI "to the masses", so why taint this gift in order to adapt an elitist attitude ?

The only thing that counts is whether youre happy with your render or not, not what anyone else thinks about that.

stahlratte

Bullshit...Pose art IS ART!!! Sure we use props from other people, but the concept and final product is ours. And is art.

Bullshit...Poser art IS ART!!! Sure we use props from other people, but the concept and final product is ours. And that is art. It is our imagination, and work that make the final image.

Well if you worked in the film industry and advertisment you would be required to create all your own 3d elements because of copyright laws.

GEE...Thank you all, I guess we all have a 'nerve' on the subject.

And what artist lets the tools define them as artists? It's not the tools they use it's the way they use them.

ofcourse poser is art ! :) i got in to a discussion w someone i know who also said its not art, only painted and drawn pics are ...grr. oh well:) so poser is cool :)

"Well if you worked in the film industry and advertisment you would be required to create all your own 3d elements because of copyright laws." That doesn't seem very realistic to me. It's neither cost nor time(cost/time=$$) efficient. Have you ever watched any of those "The making of..." documentaries? If I recall correctly, they have entire teams of professionals who collaberate; each member having their own areas of expertise and skills to contribute.

I never understood this debate. Some - in fact many - people think that the only legitimate way to be interested in 3d in a creative way is if you want to model. Thsi is very odd to me. Take any movie. Someone chose the costumes but they did not necessarily sew them. If you want to say the costume director is not an artist becasue he or she did not actually stitch the clothes together then fine. But whether its art or not it still takes creativity and may be fun to do. Then there is writing and directing the script. They are not responsible for creating all the props on the stage. They don't help construct the stage. Are they therefore not artists? In 3d it seems the "stage hands" (those who literally construct the stage) often become the Self proclaimed one and only artists while the writers and "directors" are considered lower than scum. IMO I really don't care whether I am called an artist or not. I am interested in writing and "directing" animations. I am not the least bit interested in creating a pair of pants for the characters in my animations to wear. Why doesn't the 3d programing world realize there are probably allot more people like me than not. It seems Poser (and now daz studio, and perhaps carrera) are the only programs that tries to make my goals attainable. But even they are awkward to use. Why is there this absolutely stupid tension between people who want to model thier own stuff and people who don't?

Amen!

Attached Link: http://www.4q.cc/chuck/index.php?topthirty

Chuck Norris does not sleep. He waits.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

At the riusk of raising an unpopular opinion... I've said for a long time that 95% of what we generate isnt art. It's craft. It's sometimes very good craft, but it doesnt have that "ah-hah!" spark that Art with a capital A can cause. A lot of our stuff (and I'm just as guilty as the next guy, folks) is put together without a lot of thought about composition, form, colour, visual weight -- let alone the deeper issues of meaning. It's just a pretty girl in front of a tree, or a naked Amazonian warrioress in a temple with a sword. Now there are those who can take those creaky old Poser warhorses and do something truly spectacular with them, in such a way that they go beyond just a render -- but let's be honest here, that doesnt happen too often. The store promo images that DM does for their buildings and props have more intent put into them than what we do in turn., I'm not saying any of this is bad, just that we should maintain a certain sense of perspective about the issue. CGI may have levelled the playing field by making Art relatively easy... but it doesnt necessary make Art. (... unless, of course, one has Wardrobe Wizard, which does indeed have a Make Art button built in, but that's another issue. :) ) And before someone throws out the hoary question, "Well, fine, Mister Smarty Pants, what is Art?", I'll say it right now: I dont know. I react to it on a visceral level, not a rational one. There's more truth to that adage about knowing it when we see it than we probably care to admit.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Art is not about technique, or tools or medium used. That is technical skill.

Art is emotion, and the passing of that emotion to the viewer. If a render has an emotional effect on the viewer then it has succeeded in becoming Art, if not then that render is a technical illustration.

Many of the renders in the gallery do not have this emotional content, and even though very well done technique wise fail to evoke any emotional response.

A good case in point are the many portraits in the galleries, too many are just a shout of look at me aren't i good looking. Don't get me wrong, a lot of these portraits are fabulous works of technical skill and sweat. They just fail emotionally.

Some have stood out from the crowd, i remember one from years ago of a girl with an angel on one shoulder and a devil on the other, The expression on the girls face plainly let you into her mind to feel which direction she was leaning. This piece made me laugh out loud, and has stuck with me all this time. Now i can't remember the Artist or the title of the render, but i can see it still in my mind, and feel that humour, as if i were looking at it now.

You need to put apiece of your soul into your renders, whether humour or compassion, fear or anger. Not all great art is technically outstanding, some is down right primitive LOL. But it all does one thing well it stirs our souls.

My 2 cents Canadian. 1.8 cents U.S.

Ron

How many Poser artists does it take to change a light bulb?(/quote)

Packed, WHOAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAAAAAAAAA :D

Latexluv, nice screenshot. It comes with P6 SR3 ??? Or with Poser8 ?? (read a past thread: Poser7, Legend Of The Missed Version)

muahahaaaa

(obviously I can't enter seriously in this thread. Those 3D MAX people are morons. Poser isn't a software, it's a religion. Hell for them)

Message edited on: 01/12/2006 12:51

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

Oh, I think this discussion will never stop. But in my opinion first you'll have to define what "art" really is. My arts teacher made a painting (if you can call it that) gluing scraps of newspaper onto a canvas and putting a few red brush strokes over it. This was considered art and was shown in a gallery. Well, this is not my thing... The problem may be that in 3D art everyone can show their work in online galleries, even if they are only beginners. I think this is good because this way you can get feedback, but some critics may have a problem with people who are only at the beginning of their craft. So they just say: all 3d art is thrash. But who would say oil paintings aren't art because there are many dilettantes who try to paint? Somebody said: the most merciless critics are those who would like to be an artist but lack the talent. And I think that's true. esha

I really dont see what all the fuss is about (and why this topic is so popular every month..) What does 'art' have to do with the medium it has been created with ? People produce horribly bad output with the most high end of 3d apps, its not like poser has a monoply on this. And even using the most high end of apps wont make anyone an artist or anything either. Now i am primarily a modeller, and i can understand some of the pride that modellers feel cause IMO modelling is the most satisfying and direct of all the 3d disciplines. It lets you see instant results and is closest to the feeling of 'creating something with your own hand' as you can get in 3d. However this doesnt mean that its the only game in 3d, cause other disciplines are just as (if not more) important, even if they are more subtle in the results they produce. As long as the result shows the creator's hard work and care in producing it, im happy to give it a thumbs up, even if its lighting, texturing or even arranging/posing. I do confess some distaste in looking at 'poserart', where its just a bunch of randomly thrown together props/figures and the user is too lazy to make of use of the wonderful things he has in there. But then perhaps not everyone uses poser with the same aims, and some might be getting enough satisfaction from just playing with it. Bottomline, some of the more pretentious 'artists' out there (on both sides of this fence) just need to get off their high horse is all... And the really talented/skilled artists dont have this kind of elitist attitude in the first place.

"Art [is] a selective recreation of reality according to the artist's metaphysical value judgements"....Ayn Rand in 'The Romantic Manifesto' The craft is in the technique of recreation. The Art is in the conveying of meaning, as emanating from the artist's values. I concurr. ::::: Opera :::::

Yay, an art rant! I love these! Are Poser renders art? I say YES. Unfortunately, far and away the majority of them are BAD art.

This is not a slam. It is the nature of the process. How many photographers have there been since the invention of the camera? Millions surely. How many Ansel Adams-level artists have we seen? A much, much lower number.

Most art, of ANY genre, is pure dreck. We get a very distorted view because we study art HISTORY, which of course takes only the most outstanding work of a given medium and era, and holds it up as representative. Did the Renaissance produce great art? SURE! But was most of the art produced then great? Consider that in any city of moderate size, all across Europe, you had one or more full-time artists shops producing work for the local nobility and mercantile class, for the entire duration of the Renaissance. That's a lot of art! Where is most of it now? Not hanging in museums or decorating art textbooks. Lost and forgotten because it was not worth keeping and rememebering. This is true of all art forms.

As for what art really is, it will never be agreed upon. One definition I read said "the artist has an idea." And that's it! No work even has to be produced. The concept is the art. Sour bread dough dumped on a mountaintop? Molten lead drizzled in the corners of an otherwise empty room? A near-life-size sculpture of Michael Jackson and his chimp, done in gilded porcelain (sculpted, poured, painted and fired by someone other than the "artist")? All these are considered art - by some. Some people just don't consider modern, non-representational art as art at all.

Jan_scrapper, your post really touched a nerve as well. I'm glad you are finding Poser to be the kind of outlet you so desperately sought. However, I would like to pass along the words of artist and art instructor Betty Edwards: "Anyone of sound mind can draw." I'd urge you (and everyone) to pick up a copy (if you haven't already) of her landmark Drawing On The Right Side Of The Brain. My wife (who was studying figure drawing at the Art Student's League in NYC at the time) did a small workshop years ago for me and a couple of friends, based on this book. A few years later, I was filliping through my sketchbook from the class and said, "Oh, here's a sketch you did in my sketchbook." She looked at it and said. "No it's not. It's the one you did in the workshop." I could hardly believe it, but she was right! Unfortunately, because I haven't practiced since then, my drawing skills have dropped back to stick-figure level. :-P But getting them back and taking them farther is one of my resoultions for this year!

Adding traditional artistic skills to your toolbox can never be a bad thing, it can only improve your work. If you look at the work done for many awesome 3-D works, they almost always start with concept sketches - just pencil on paper. (Check out the "Giving Chest" site over at DAZ3D for a good example.) Plus, think of it as the ultimate way to shut up those "you're not a real artist" nimrods! "Oh yeah? (whipping out sketchbook) Check out my nekkid Vicky in a temple concept sketches!" :-)

-Jimdoria ~@>@

Message edited on: 01/12/2006 13:28

• Jimdoria  ~@>@

They probably hate "Finding Nemo" because it didn't use real fish.

3dCritter

 

How they call us?? Poser whores?? Heh. Funny "But too much expensive for you, boy. Grow and return" The definition of Art, twenty-seventh meaning: "Nude Vicky in a temple with a sword" SO POSER IS ART !!!! :D

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

(some software probably comes with any kind of plugin which reset to zero the user's brain... I had this conversation a lot of times with 3D MAX users) (some photo cameras also have that plug-in) (and some pencils) (and some...)

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

You're absolutely right.... Poser art is NOT real art at all. Anyone can do it, anyone can learn it, no talent needed at all. Even kids can do it. Now try to create a Rembrandt or so without talent.....

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

If I'm a Poser Whore, who's my pimp, and more importantly, where's his money?

Kreations By Khrys

" If I'm a Poser Whore, who's my pimp, and more importantly, where's his money?" ROTFLMAO!!! Can I steal that? >^_~

laughs Sure, why not! But when my pimp finds out you stole from me, he'll be after you, I'm sure. Always fear the man in neon pink fur.

Kreations By Khrys

I think I worship in the cathedrel of Poser 5 almost daily. Occassionally I stray into the church of Poser 6, but not often yet. It scares me in there. shiver

"A lonely climber walks a tightrope to where dreams are born and never die!" - Billy Thorpe, song: Edge of Madness, album: East of Eden's Gate

Weapons of choice:

Poser Pro 2012, SR2, Paintshop Pro 8

 

 

Jimdoria: "A near-life-size sculpture of Michael Jackson and his chimp, done in gilded porcelain (sculpted, poured, painted and fired by someone other than the "artist")" Saw that one at SF MOMA. I liked it a lot. Yes, the subject was derivative and the work was mass-produced, but all of that supported the underlying concepts. The concept determined the form. I have to say in too much of Poser the form determines the concept. This does not prevent one from making good art, however. The haiku form is incredibly restrictive, and it would be too easy to characterize all haiku as simple wordplay; a complex intellectual game, not poetry. Many haiku do, however, rise to the level of poetry. Yet, down that route is realizing that there can be "art" in a well-written computer program, in a hand-made guitar, in practically any of what are otherwise called "crafts" fields. Obversely, there are millions of hand-done oil landscapes out there that must be characterized as more "craft" than art; as they lack the intangible something beyond craftsmanlike execution of the subject. Deciding "what is art" is a fool's game. What is useful, instead, is to ask of a particular creative process or material if it allows personal expression, or if it emphasises craft skills -- or worse (like Poser tends to) emphasizes the drudgery of numbers. After all, one may be a musician, one may play music, but when one is trying to break in a new reed by playing scales few would characterize that as anything other than a drudge-work task. Breaking in a reed may be done with creativity and sensitivity as well as skill, but in the mind of the player "Music" will come later.

Does anyone else around here remember those old "Art is for Man's Sake" public service TV ads from the late 60's - early 70's era? I seem to have a vague recollection that the ads were sponsored by the National Endowment for the Arts.

Hmmmmm......that thought gives me an idea.

I wonder if I can get a big government grant to churn out endless V3 renders.........that would be a great job, if I can get it.

Hmmmmm......after all, I use Poser on nights and weekends. That makes ME an artist!

So why shouldn't I get in on the NEA gravy train? After all, I deserve it. I USE POSER!!!!!! It's ART: so it follows that it's for Man's Sake.

((note to the NEA: show me the money.))

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Just remember: "A critic knows the price of everything, but the value of nothing!" I love using poser, takes me back to my days as a photographer but without the attendant hassles of hiring a model, waiting for her to show up, finding out that she's not "into" modelling that day and leaving early. Posette and all her daughters rule!

Complicated.... There's a little old lady....really. She's got 5 assistants (all very able and talented). She say's, "let's make a nude standing". They make it for her. Between naps and guests she says..."That's it"! "I love it"! The model is scanned and it's file is shipped to abroad. Here it is laser pointed and carved into a pure white block of marble. Corrected and even signed(her name) by guys whose great great great grandfathers did the same thing without pcs. It is shipped back to her studio and after champagne, it is purchased by a repeat buyer on the spot for a huge sum. Newspaper articles rave... So,,, what is the art? What is the craft? Who is the artist? Or, is it all just a small part of a very big lie or, some new truth? A techno blur on old traditions and values...? Eat it Breath it Excell at it and It becomes valid. And then, you'll no longer have time to ask the question.

Anything can be art. Anyone can be an artist. The mystery for me is always how does some of the work I see make it so far up the Pyramid of Success? Critics and Agents push. Buckets of Blood? Masturbating in a pile of trash under the museum steps? 100 recipes for Used Yams? A play, a movie, an illlustration can all live a productive existence without being crowned "art". Thank you, Latexluv, biggest laugh of the day.

My personal problem with Poser is the "drudge factor." If I paint in acrylics I spend hours moving a brush -- but every brush stroke gives of it's individual character and nuance to the final painting. If I do 3d, I spend hours moving a mouse -- but no matter how deftly or sensitively I move the mouse, only the final position of the polygons appears in the resulting artwork. The complaint that artists, particularly 3d artists, have with Poser is how easy it may be to fake creativity. The viewer questions if what they are responding to emotionally comes from the artist who's signature is on the work, or a content creator or programmer behind them. It might help to look at Poser work as more collaborative art. One can admire a magnificant 'cello performance without asking if the player composed it themselves. One can enjoy all the aspects of a play, dispite the fact that the story and words already existed before the show was cast or the sets designed. I DO find that many Poser creators, especially beginning creators, are seduced by the beauty of the pre-made parts. That's why so many take am unmodified Vickie, slap a texture on her, then render. Until reality sinks in they feel as if their own efforts have made this complex bit of near-realism come to life; they feel an actual joy of "creation." The same happens when you lift a consumer camera at one of the observation platforms at the Grand Canyon; for a moment you feel as if you have personally contributed towards what will appear in that final print. Yes, you have, but not to the extent you might feel at first. Later, as the Poser user desires to express themselves more uniquely, they get into the tweaky, twiddly stuff. And there is where Poser smacks you a second time; 3d is such a complex, time-consuming act, one is always drawn (if not forced) to compromise. Sure, my inner vision said an old African woman looking out over the Serengiti -- but the morphs would take too long, Vickie won't even morph that way, my attempts at painting a custom texture ran into the seam issue, and I can't find a Wildebeast in any of the online brokers. Okay -- a middle-aged Cherokee will have to do. Now I just need to find a background that will work. The trade-off is thus; sure, the "make it all from scratch" people can do stuff the Poser junkie can't. But they make few images, they face their own limitations, and they trade polish, detail, and richness for time; they can do a "toon" quickly but a baroquely detailed jungle scene will take them all year. The Poser user trades upon pre-made material to make complex scenes quickly, to leverage the power of artistic collaberation (to inspire with directions they would not have imagined, to lean upon in the areas where they are weak, to fill in detail in places where it would otherwise be drudgery, not creation), and they can make several scenes a year; to explore their artistic visions in more depth and to branch out -- and more than anything, to have the freedom for experimentation.

Hmmm...Leo Fender built the guitars that Jimi Hendrix played. So I guess that means Hendrix wasn't an artist either.

"Buckets of Blood? Masturbating in a pile of trash under the museum steps?" Stunningly decadent imagery, I'm inspired! Vicki probably won't go for the blood though.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Well the problem is not that it's art the problem is it's art made from other art i think...figures made by others and daz/zygote. If anyone can make art from it then when does it blur the line between talent with charcole and paintbrush where a real life person paints the image rather then a person poseing and texturing an image from prefabricated art elements in 3d that took them 4 minutes to render. See if anyone can do this it kind of lowers the value for employment for poser artist right? Why should a employer hire anyuone who can do this if he can purchase the packages and do it himself? another problem is alot of poser images are stand alone with a figure centered as the focus of the image, I guess if maybe the art was not as stand alone it would get better recognition? I can't answer this question but i can toss out some things that come to mind when i think it over.

Nomuse i agree with you i think poser is more collaberative art rather then art made by a single person unless that persom made and created all the elements themselves.

For example if i make a figure and my own textures ect then the art is mine, If i use david and buy a texture from dreamspinner and hair from Anton clothes from Phile C then it is collaberative because none of the elements were my own creation except the poseing if you include the mat files, So i push a button and it renders, how much of this image can i call my own?

I would say very little of the image is mine, even if i create the hair and texture and use the david figure someone still made the morphs and the figure, and the program poser itself so how much of the art is really comming from my true art talent?

I agree poser is an artform but i think there is a limit to what a person can claim as thiers? the rendering engine has to get alot of credit whoever created the rendering image has alot to do with how the images render I would submise...

Message edited on: 01/12/2006 22:53

"Why should a employer hire anyuone who can do this if he can purchase the packages and do it himself?" That assumes that anyone CAN whis is only true in the most general sense. Yeah, if you can hear thunder and see lightning, you can probably create a Poser image but will it be any good? If I wanted to have a cover for a book or a really nice application, there are several people here whose work I'd pay for. I certainly wouldn't use one of my digital scribblings and I've been playing with Poser for years--I'm no artist though. Even people who may have the ability may not have the time or inclination. There will always be a market for talent. More importantly, the buyers don't care how it was done, as long as it meets their needs. I can see people getting their knickers in a twist when their talents are being dissed but really, I sometimes think the 3D art bullies pick on Poser artists because it's so easy to get them going. That I suspect, comes from an underlying insecurity that says "Gee what if this really isn't art?" Anyone without some subversive agenda knows that "art" is too subjectve a concept for such rigid definitions so why even play the game. Let those fools stew in their own bitter juices. You may as well spend your time debating the superiority of one religion over another. At least no one is going to hell for using Poser. Well, OK, if I do the thing under the library steps picture I might get purgatory.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Ceci n'est pas une pipe.

Chuck Norris does not make art. He is art

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

An artist painted a picture called "The Town Watch" If he had to credit all the people involved people/things it would someting like this Thanks to 'Ace Armory' for the armour depicted Thanks to 'Weopons Inc' for the pikes swords etc. Thanks to 'Torches associates' for lighting Thanks to 'Harry's Habadashery' for the gentlemans clothing Thanks to 'Millies Millinary' for the womens clothing Thanks to 'Pets Ltd' for dogs etc Thanks to 'Buildings Inc' for background buildings Thanks to 'Streets are Us'for the Cobblestones Thanks to 'Barbers Golore' for beards/hair styles Thanks to 'Joes Jewelery' for the ladies gems Thanks to 'The individual members of the townwatch' Thanks to 'the Ladies' of Madam Rose's home for women Thanks to... etc, etc, the list goes on. All these items/people were NOT designed/manufactured by the artist. The artist simply composed a picture and lighted it, and applied paint to the canvas to render it. So how much of the painting was his?

Ask yourself: who is responsible for imbuing the work with its meaning. That is the artist. If no meaning is intended to be imbued, or none is conveyed because of lack of craft, then it is not art. ::::: Opera :::::

And Winsor & Newton made the watercolours. They also made the brushes. I forget who is known for manufacturing artist canvas. Someone else made the easel and stool. Nature made the marble or other stone. A company made the chisel. You didn't dig that clay up yourself. You didn't make that pottery wheel or the bench you sit on when you use it. Do you see where this is going? Until these smarmy "You didn't make any of it yourself so you're not a REAL artist!"-types dig up their own clay, grind and mix their own paints from berries and suchlike, OR CODE THEIR OWN VERSION OF 3DMAX/WHATEVER FROM THE FIRST LINE OF CODE ON UP, they can kindly shut up.

I'm reminded of the Dadaist who bought a urinal and displayed it as art. Someone else put an old tire around a stuffed goat and called it art. Another put an "Out of Order" sign on a crucifix and created art. The Louvre several years ago had a display of vintage erotica (i.e. sexy pictures meant to appeal to the prurient interest), all of which was presented as art. Art is not a fixed concept. It is quite fluid and changes. But that is what one would consider official "Art" as dictated by an outside source other than the artist. My dog creates art in the backyard three times a day. I'll be willing to sell some if anyone's interested. He's quite prolific. Mike

Well, actually....Rembrandt ground his own pigments and was a master in mixing the complex glazes he used. Also, the picture in question -- "The Company of Captain Banning Cocq" -- is actually a day scene. Darkening of the brown glazing over time has led to its present name. :)

egaeus, that was Marcel Duchamp, a personage who, in many ways, is the cause of confusion and contention in art. He would be bitterly happy about it, too. ::::: Opera :::::

Yah. "Fountain." Cute work. The "found object" sculptures I like best are the ones that show you the objects in a suprising yet convincing new way -- like Picasso's "Head of a Bull" made with an old bicycle seat and handlebars (which I always thought carried the subtitle "A Tribute to Georgia O'Keefe.") The difference with these, is that the inherent "art" in these items was not designed in by the original producer. The bike seat was made to fulfil a specific function, and it was the artist who noticed the resemblance to the skull of an animal. Whereas, in something like Warhol's soup cans the artist is asking you to respond to the "art" that was already on the cans -- as if it had been designed from the start to hang in a gallery. (I'd mention Roy Lichtenstien in this context but I have a strong dislike for his attitude towards the original work). So not to get too far afield, the Poser connection might be that one Poser artist would use stock textures (pre-mixed paints) generic props, and creatively combine, reverse, re-texture, and otherwise envision uses the original creators had not. The other takes items developed as complete-in-themselves (like a Vicky character set with costume and hair), and uses them as provided.

Again a lot of misconceptions.

CGI is not like photography vs painting.
Its much more like creating original music vs sampling, or making collage-art from other peoples photos.

Neither the painter nor the photographer have to "create" what they picture. They just reflect on what is already "there".

But Vicky3 and everything else in your runtime isnt just "there", it all had to be modelled first to bring it into virtual space.

These mesh objects are in fact three dimensional "paint-
ings", so the MODELLER is the one who can compare his work to a real life painter or photographer, not the Poser user.
He translates a real world object into another dimension (a virtual space) in the same way a painter translates a real world object onto a 2D canvas.

So its easy to see that in CGI the mesh creation is the
primary artistic process.
A Poser user just takes other peoples works and rearranges them.
This CAN be highly artistic, but like every "secondary" art (Like music sampling or collage-art) which relies on other peoples work to exist, you will have to live with the fact that your work is generally not valued as "important" as the primary process of "creation".

The problem is that many Poser users seem to have no clue about modelling, and tend to take all that meshes they have in their runtime for granted, just like they take the world outside their window for granted.
But Vicky and Mike and all the other meshes are NOT just "tools" like paper and paint you create Poser art with.
They are works of art by themselves, in the same sense a real world sculpture is.
And if you cant respect that fact, youll never win the respect of one of the "make it all yourself" purists.

Its like going into a gallery, photographing a Rembrand with a Polaroid and then expecting that you can put your pic alongside the original because your such a great "frigginartist and you demand immediate respect.

Sorry, wont happen.
Those who have greater skills usually dont depend on what people with less skills think of them.
If you want to earn someones respect, you better play by HIS rules.

I love to work in Poser with other peoples meshes as it saves a lot of time and energy for me, but I have no problem to admit that almost everything I do in Poser is BASED on someone elses work and can only be judged as somehow derivative.

stahlratte

the mesh creation is the primary artistic process. << Art requires meaning. What is the meaning of a mesh?

the MODELLER is the one who can compare his work to a real life painter or photographer, not the Poser user. He translates a real world object into another dimension (a virtual space) in the same way a painter translates a real world object onto a 2D canvas.<< Excuse me, this is not true. A painter who just translates a real world object onto canvas is just producing a technically perfect copy, but not art. A real artist leaves off things which are there and perhaps paints things which are not there, he/she creates atmosphere and expresses feelings. Real good painters do not necessarily paint what is there, but they paint what THEY see and what they feel looking at the scene. >>So its easy to see that in CGI the mesh creation is the primary artistic process.<< I am really in awe of some of the modellers, especially because I've just recently started modelling myself and I know now how hard it is. But I don't think it's art, it's not even a creative process to re-create something in 3D. It's a craft which needs a lot of technical knowledge and a high degree of perfection to make the mesh look and work right. By creating a mesh, however, nobody expresses their feelings, only perhaps their taste about what they think is beautiful. But I think it IS creative if someone is able to combine the morphs of the rather average-looking Vicky in a way that conveys real emotion, that creates a feeling in those who look at the image. In reality we all have at our disposition the same poser resources. Why then don't look all the pictures the same (even if many do - but not all)? There are a few really stunning images that are very impressive. Where do they come from? Obiously it is possible to get unique results even with elements that are owned by a thousand other Poser users, too. There may be only a few artists who are able to reach that effect, but I think those who can do just that deserve to be considered artists.

This is an absolutely boring thread (trying with this post to disable my 'Email me when someone replies' option, I have readed all this so many times ago an without a particle of humour...) bye

CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"

.ottid

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

An artist can create art with Poser (though this is rare). Using Poser, however, does not make one an artist. A brief view of the Poser gallery will show that both these facts are obvious.

That's right- unless you use a pencil, charcoal, or oil paints, your creation is not artwork. I mean, really, you didn't create those mountains- you just took out your camera and took a picture. And you didn't paint that sunset yourself- you just took a picture of it. Sounds kind of absurd, doesn't it? I'm sure photographers heard these sames things when photography started to become a true art form. Poser, like Lightwave and 3D Studio Max is a TOOL to create an image. Whether the quality of an image rates it as "artwork" can be debated, but no one can dismiss an image because of the tools that were used. Or do these same people discard sculptures because they aren't paintings? Or are all pencil drawings bad because the artist didn't use oil paint? --John

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

Mark_uk It would have been helpful if instead of saying "obvious" you had given the actual reason why some are art and some are not. They whold problem in this thread is lack of people giving the essential qualities, the specific, rational characteristics, of a work that make it art, regardless of form. And jhoagland, I agree with you that it is not what tool you use, but the quality of the content. What is the essential quality that makes the work pass over the line from not-art to art? ::::: Opera :::::