I jsut went to use my discount certificate and pick up a few items and notice that Umotov's store is down. Anyone know why and when it'll be back? I'm sending him an IM but I dont know how often he's on the site. Thanks mike

umutov is no longer a merchant due to 3 of his popular products being heavily based on my custom GND2: Athletic body morph, as well as including Daz3D V3 morphs. he has also been banned from poserpros for 3 violations over there (one of them was a different product - sold to daz as a PoserPros original). i only wish i had noticed these sooner, since they were blatant infringements being sold in the marketplace for over 3 months now, and the damage done is beyond irreparable. i have dealt with infringements in the past - and there have been several merchants who have unintentionally used my work or misunderstood the license. often these are worked out behind the scenes and i am very forgiving when someone makes a copyright 'blunder'. but there is no way that these could have been 'accidental' infringements. not only has my material been in his store for nearly 4 months in some cases, but i have just wasted a week of my time doing comparisons and waiting for the results of the site investigations - i had to postpone a trip up north and the release of two new products as a result, not to mention the lack of sleep and outrage over this. refunds at both sites should be sent out soon, if they havent already (i think i got mine back a few days ago). cheers, -gabriel

I'm so sorry this has happen to you once again Gabriel. Hugs to you and hope you can get up North now.

Love is Grandchildren.

Sorry to hear it, man.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Bummer! But looking forward to your new products! The GND is terrific! Bernie

thanks turtle.
i wish though,
now that i can focus on my work again, i have 2 products to finish poserizing and packaging. **edit: and everyone else too - sorry, im pretty slow on the replies, rendering is slowing my comp down like molasses.

Message edited on: 01/26/2006 14:08

I bought GND2 from you a while back. She is GREAT, and I use her a lot. I'm really sorry that you had to go through that whole mess. Looking forward to your future products!

2 computers, Gabriel, that's what you need. One for surfing and Photoshop, one for rendering. :D

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I had a sense of dejavu when I saw some of his products and something made me not to buy them, now I know where that shapes and "custom" morphs came from. Sorry that is you again BH, that is the price for being so fu*** good! ;)

Yes....everyone needs a dedicated rendering comp. A machine that does nothing except for renders 24/7. So....instead of buying just one new, fast computer -- buy two. Or even better: buy three. The more the merrier.

And yes: GND2 is a great product.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

BH, I just now clicked on your name in a post above, then on the link to your store. Dead link http://market.renderosity.com/softgood.ez?Who=Blackhearted However, when I went to the marketplace and searched for you by artist, your store came up. ::::: Opera ::::

Blackhearted, Sorry tohear about ther trouble, but glad it was handled BEFORE I spent my money! Hope you get a chance to finish you new projects I'm sure they'll be of the same quality as GND2 and your other items. mike (also a GND fan!)

Im sorry to hear that Gabe :(

---

My Renderosity Store

operaguy - i think those links are broken for the time being because renderosity switched over to the new PHP store. they are still ironing out some wrinkles and from what i understand once both the store and the forums/galleries are converted over to PHP then travel between them will be seamless. till then, the link to my store looks like this: http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=11343 also, i have a second comp for rendering. its busy burning backup work in progress DVDs right now to clear some room on my drive, i dare not disturb it with something as heavy as rendering. " I had a sense of dejavu when I saw some of his products and something made me not to buy them, now I know where that shapes and "custom" morphs came from." if ever you have such a sense of deja-vu again please let me know :) i dont browse the store very much, and i never went to PP, so i had no idea these even existed. once i saw the thumbnail though i knew it was my product - you cant look at a morph 18 hrs a day for weeks while youre making it and tweaking it and not recognize it instantly from even a 200x200px thumbnail. once i was in the right store it took me seconds to pick out the infringements. i guess this means i need to devote some time to scanning the marketplaces here and at other stores, or hire someone to do it for me. to me they are almost laughably easy to spot, im suprised noone else noticed them. if anyone out there is bored and wants to make some extra cash or have access to free products, i know that myself and several other merchants would be appreciate someone helping us skim through the marketplace every few nights and forward anything suspicious to us. im so busy with work that im lucky to spend 15 min looking through the rosity MP 'whats new' every couple of months. i never visit poserpros, commune, etc either. either that or perhaps ill put together a webpage with some quick 'flashcards' of highly recognizeable areas of my textures and morphs and upload them to my webspace, with an offer that anyone that forwards to me the details of a possible infringement that ends up actually being reported as a copyright violation to rosity/pp/etc ill mail them a cd with all of my products and $25 or something. any opinions on such an idea? cheers, -gabriel

OMG! Umut was stealing your stuff?!? I am finding this very suprising and sad,I am very sorry to hear this. -3dz

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

I'm more suprised that Blackhearted had to tell everyone. I've found no mention of this anywhere else. are the stores just gonna spring a suprise refund on the customers?

those that know me can appreciate how much self-control i am exerting at this very moment.

and I'm sure thats being tested by the stores involved making you the messenger instead of them telling us... passes over a beer

I know I just went to PP's to confirm what I just read and I find no mention either. -3dz

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

i cant really say any more, but i do appreciate how it was handled by pretty much everyone, considering the people and stores involved (which mushroomed pretty fast). im actually shocked at how efficiently poserpros handled this. i havent been much of a fan of them in the past (and i am sure the sentiment was reciprocated many times over), however i could not be more pleased with how it was handled over there - and all for a merchant who doesnt even sell there. im very impressed. dtigerwoman (over at PP) is a copyright enforcement ninja (lol) - i truly pity anyone caught on the wrong side of a copyright infringement from her.

Can anyone other than Bh say what products or aliases Umotov used or, was famous for? A quick search in my Runtime found no "umotof".

The name here was umutov.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Gabriel, I buy your stuff and I never bought any of his. And now I am very pleased about that :o) Hmm... wonder what your upcoming products are? I'm very keen to find out! :] Fish

He'll probably be back again in a few months with a nick like BlueBelleDaisy or something......selling texture sets of crochet lace doilies.

I bought a couple of products from umutov in the distant past -- during what I suppose we could call his "first incarnation". Lately, in his "second incarnation", I've pretty much ignored him. So I'm not looking for any refunds.

It's too bad that he chose to go this way. I believe that he actually has enough talent to do it on his own: without cheating. Ah, well.....the lure of 'easy' is always a tempting one.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"Ah, well.....the lure of 'easy' is always a tempting one." Nope, not for everyone but then I'm a contrary bastard. Ask anyone who knows me. :) Besides, who would be so stupid - there's no other word for it - as to rip off such a well known merchant? I guess the answer is quite a few people, considering what's happened in recent years.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

just to verify, umutov actually used your morph transferred to aiko, not just made a morph that looks like yours, right? i ask because i immediately noticed the similarity and just assumed that with the popularity of gnd, style clones were being made. personally, i almost never get a single custom morph. i always feel like i should at least test the limits of what i can do with the morph sets i've already bought (all praise capsces, mistress of morphing!). since i've never actually done that, i didn't get a first hand look at umutov's girls or your gnd. i will say that since his prior morphs seemed to consist of duplicating the stretch legs morphs, i was surprised at the jump in his skills. basically, i just want to kind of verify the rules of the game as a customer. that it's the actual materials being duplicated and not the style or concept. i mean, i often see "look-a-like" products, but i figured this was kosher competition not infringement.

.

....Now Bring Me That Horizon....
Send IM | Gallery

Nope, not for everyone but then I'm a contrary bastard. Ask anyone who knows me. :)

Easy enough for you to say.

;)

As for "being stupid" -- I'm of the opinion that any action of this type is inherently stupid on its face. But hey -- conterfeiters reproduce $100 bills. Not $1 bills.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

.

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

.

Yikes, Umutov??!!! Damn! I really didn't see this coming. As 3Dz said before its very sad to hear this because he was not a new comer, the ones that trully doesn't know where the copyright theft begins. This thing was done KNOWING that it was not right, which is worst. Too bad. Gabriel seeing you so calm is kind of freaking me out, is it really you? Just kidding, good luck on this man. PM

.

I dare you, while there is still time, to have a magnificent obsession. --William Danforth

back

front *edit: forgot to flag for nudity, my apologies. Message edited on: 01/26/2006 18:25

O.O my my my shakes head

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

Am bookmarking and just want to say.... Damn..sorry Gabe...Can't say I am sorry for the other guy..he was entirely too...what's the word I am looking for here...umm...oh I don't know the word, but he got WAY under my skin... edited cos I hit enter by accident haha

Message edited on: 01/26/2006 18:35

Victims...aren't we all?

Before you ask, YES my avatar is a portrait of me painted by someone very dear to me, so don't even think of using yourself ...mmmkay????

Visit my site for all of my art Digital Deviant

In the muscle bound one, you should consider making the boobs smaller and less droopy. If you look closely at female body builders you'll notice that most don't have large breasts.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I have to appologize for my poor typing (and spelling)! I did misspell Umutov's name up there. ONce more sorry. mike

the muscle bound one is the ripoff

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

Oh, I thought he was previewing something he was working on.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

My sympathies to the injured party in this case. It's horrible getting ripped off in any profession. So, let me get this straight (because I am a newcomer to Poser development), are there any instances where you can you use existing morph sets to create a character to sell? If, for example, I use the Daz Vic3 head and body morphs in some unique combination, spawn the body parts and then create an FBM character morph - is that fair game? So long as the original individual morphs cannot be extracted from this? Forgive my ignorance. As is the case with so many other copyright and legal issues, this seems ambiguous at times. I've been told I create lots of interesting characters using morph sets developed by others, but don't want to end up doing anything that infringes licenced work by other artists.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

My apologies for coming in late on the conversation. Is the comparison above between Nell and GND supposed to be close? They look very different to me. What am I missing?

Hmm..Now I am a bit confused. I bought Umutov's "MidnightFever - Lilly" A character with clothes about a week ago. I had decided that I would NOT buy anything from renderosity again until I found the Marketplace beeing customer friendly again, not to mention my purchase history. I think I have bought items for about 5-6000 dollars since may in here, but now I think the new system is horrible. Anyway, I had said many times that I would buy Lullys hairlayers as soon as she released it in the Marketplace, and I did even though I had promised myself not to buy from this store. At the same time I bought "Midnightfever-Lilly" and was about doing a render with her this night. Now when I search for her I can't find her, but I find the textures for the outfit that was in my wishlist, and when I click on the link to the product it says "This product is no longer available for purchase". Does that mean that this product was a copyright violation and that I cannot use her? If so, why hasn't anyone from RS wrote to me about it? As long as I haven't heard anything, I suppose that this product is safe to use and that it was not this product that was an copyright violation. hope so

you kind of have to look at areas of each morph...like on her back ,the definition at the shoulders is pretty exact as well as the muscles near the backbone,
IMO those are pretty well screaming "Blackhearted morph".
you can see the same things on the front image aswell near the ribs and in a couple other spots.

-3dz

p.s. looking at the images,to me it looks like BH's GND with a muscular morph added.

Message edited on: 01/26/2006 19:11

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

oh, i'd believe it. it looked pretty much just like GND, only on aiko. like i said, i never bought it (her?), only looked at your promos, and the similiarity was the first thing i noticed about umutov's product (i can't remember the name of the aiko product). if it was done at all, it was done pretty wholesale.

(added after seeing bh's comparison post) - oh wait, this is a totally different umutov product. the one i'm thinking of isn't v3 at all - it's like that same morph for aiko. lemme see if i can find posted pics.... product showcase thread (not great example) you could see better it in the product promos that showed off her whole body.

it really is too bad. well, i'll keep this in mind the next time i see a knock-off. hmmm. so that's the appropriate action, just contact the merchant whose work you think might be infringed upon? and they'll handle it quietly? i've always wondered, because there have been a few high profile products i've worried about, but didn't want to start any flames or conflicts or be accused of anything. especially if it turns out there isn't a violation (the preferrable outcome). just because i want a product verified as original doesn't mean i don't actually expect it to be found so. i kind of assume innocence until proven otherwise. i mean, i certainly wouldn't want to needlessly create a stressful, combative situation. oh, and r_kane1, wow, we see things very differently. nell seems almost identical to me, minus a few large scale (read easy to do) changes to neck width, hip and thigh width and breast size. the particular musculature of her stomach, shoulders and lower back is identical and was (i believe) unique to GND prior to her release.

Message edited on: 01/26/2006 19:13

Could you do the same comparison you are doing now and insert a base Vickie model in there so I can see all threee. I am sorry. I do morphs and I can recognize my own, for sure, I was just hoping to have a pic of the original. I know they started from the same base mesh and I am not saying it WASN'T copyright infringment, I am just interested in getting a better comparison to judge for myself.

Thank you. p.s. I am not as familiar with V3 as I am with other models as I don't have her and don't use her. I would probably be able to spot things immediately if it were on an Apollo Max figure or Michael2 figure but with my limited experience with the figure, I cannot see the similarities. i am SURE though, once I see the original mesh lined up I will be able to better see it and it will stand as a better illustration of the theft involved. P.S. I like the GND morph better anyway. More realistic and better done.

Message edited on: 01/26/2006 19:22

book mark

In a world filled with causes for worry and anxiety...
we need the peace of God standing guard over our hearts and minds.
 
Jerry McCant

Wow... long time no see, haha been forever since we talked.. Anyhow, sorry to hear/see this happen again. I'm actually impressed how "calm" you are lol Maybe getting use to it by now.. The sad part is your work is so good I don't see it stopping... :(

Hi Gabriel, really saddened to hear this. You are certainly exhibiting heroic restraint.

rkane - the difference between GND2 and V3 are night and day. many areas - such as the breasts - were morphed entirely flat before shaping them so they wouldnt even accidentally resemble V3's.
i didnt put these images up for debate purposes - there is no debate...but i have updated them to include Base V3 for those who are unfamiliar with the Base V3 shape.
there was nothing subjective about the evidence.

front 2
back 2

"(added after seeing bh's comparison post) - oh wait, this is a totally different umutov product. "
this is only one of the 4 products.

im not presenting a case here, and this is as much information as anyone will manage to wring out of me. i merely put up a quick pic to end any speculation that this is merely 'artistic similarity'.

cheers,
-gabriel

...on a brighter note, Black, I thought I was done buying stuff for today since I just ordered both P6 and Carrara Pro 5 a few hours ago. Then I read this thread, got curious, looked in your store and ended up buying a couple items. lol.

Gabe, I am so sorry that this has happened to you and disgusted with the culprit. This is an act of supreme arrogance and total stupidity to even think he would get away with it. I for one will have my eyes open even wider in the future. hugs Kym

STORE:
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=KymJ
GALLERY:
www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=KymJ

Just so people know. An announcement is up at Poserpros.com... Sans names. Sorry this had to happen.

gosh but i get tired of copyright violators... the abundance of stupidity is just appalling, the arrogance is absolutely disgusting and the deliberate theft utterly loathsome... glad that the vast depth of violation & lack of respect you've experienced to date has yet to deter you from continuing the creative processes, Gabe... i feel equally awful thinking about how many of Umutt's customers were duped & now p'raps feel even more insecure about making purchases - period...

Unfortunately, Giana, it happens all too frequently. Most times it is settled quietly and the package is updated. Other times it becomes the talk of the forums for a few days. And Other times the community goes into complete meltdown. I rank this as talk of the forums for a few days. ;)

Wow...I'm so sorry :( I was looking at his products a while ago and I made the comment to a friend that one of his Aiko ones looked alot like what I got if I applied the GND morphs to her at a .5 setting (makes her look fantastic BTW)... I'm glad now I couldn't afford to pick up the product I was going to buy. sighs I'll never understand people....

Admin: http://www.artistsagainstcensorship.com
Artist: http://www.skyewolfimages.com

"i feel equally awful thinking about how many of Umutt's customers were duped & now p'raps feel even more insecure about making purchases - period..." oh god, please dont. then these people win. there are over 2000 honest merchants in the marketplace, and the stores will do everything in their power to make it right with the customer. ive done nothing wrong in this, yet ive volunteered my time to remorph aiko as a replacement for the aiko19 morph. renderosity is refunding all of the customers at considerable cost to itself - and it did nothing wrong. so is poserpros. not to mention the nearly a week of time that nearly half a dozen people involved have spent dealing with this godforsaken issue. myself (as the original merchant), renderosity, poserpros, and daz have lost out on this bigtime, but hopefully the inconvenience for the customer will be a small one. cheers, -gabriel

Blackhearted.

smile Chill. Its all good.

When I ask questions, it means I am curious. Not accusing anyone of anything and I whole-heartedly (Blackheartedly?) like your work.

I was merely interested in seeing EXACTLY what you put up when you added the Vickie figure to the figure transition for those of us who are not as familiar with the V3 figure. What you put up even demonstrates to my roomate and girlfriend who know NOTHING about Poser figures that your work was ripped off. It also showed it quite plainly to me, which I appreciate you going to the trouble to demonstrate. I just like seeing such things when someone's name and reputation are being called into question. The truth is, this shows without a doubt, your situation is quite valid and unmistakeable. You were ripped off.

Excellent work, by the way. You have a great eye for the female form! Once I get Vickie, I am inspired to buy your GND2. Awesome stuff.

Message edited on: 01/26/2006 22:04

i DO sincerely hear what you're saying, Gabe, but for me i see it differently... the day i stop having empathy for everyone involved other than the criminal is when i would consider 'those people winning'... that's just me :)) but now i'm curious - i've no idea what Aiko19 is [i'll assume it's one of Umutt's stolen goods], but once done, will you be putting your work on A3 up in the MP? i've a little girl-crush on the A3 model ;)

@ BH --

This might be another one of those instances where "any publicity is good publicity".

More controversy = expanded sales.

Odd how things work out sometimes.

In any case, the GND2 sells herself. But this level of noise tends to attract the notice of some who otherwise might not have noticed anything.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

id just as soon have avoided the entire thing entirely xeno... jesus, you almost make this sound like a good thing. i assure you theres nothing good about it - and till the MP php fixes roll in all of our sales are pretty shriveled up anyway.

Oh, well.....

I've seen instances of other products that got involved in controversy for one reason or another. The merchants enjoyed a corresponding sudden brisk increase in sales. At least for a while. They might not have liked the way that the increase came about: but come about it did. Perhaps it'll happen here.

In any case: if people buy the GND2, then they'll be doing themselves the favor of getting a top-quality V3 character. IMO - one of the best V3 morphs that I've ever seen. Ten **********'s +, if we still had ratings in the MP.

Hey: look on the bright side of things, that's what I say.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Really sorry to hear about this Gabriel. And glad you're taking so well. I don't have GND but have quite a bit of your other stuff, and to be honest, I thought when I saw the Umutov morphs that it sure had the Blackhearted style to it. Anyway, sure hope you do the Aiko morph since she and Stephanie (aka Irina) are my favorite meshes right now. Sorry again, Mike K

Xeno, Given the circumstances, I'd say Blackhearted has every right to be offended by your assertions. Honestly, I think he is going above and beyond what is required of him by working on Aiko19. This is not some cheap publicity stunt. A lot of people were "injured" by yet another unscrupulous merchant. ======================================================== Giana, Aiko19 is exclusive to Poser Pros. PP is offering a line of "original" products and the Aiko figure is one of them.

ehh, xeno didnt exactly offend me, he just unknowingly hit a nerve is all.
its what umutov accused me of in an IM after i filed the reports on these with the MP - that i 'made the whole accusation up in order to increase my sales'. if only.

Honestly, I think he is going above and beyond what is required of him by working on Aiko19. This is not some cheap publicity stunt. A lot of people were "injured" by yet another unscrupulous merchant.

I never stated that it WAS a "cheap publicity stunt". Read my posts: you won't see such a statement -- nor even such a remote implication -- anywhere in them. Where that idea came from totally escapes me.

As for BH's going above and beyond what's required -- I agree with you 100%. Nor did I imply in any way, shape, or form that he wasn't. So there's no argument over that point, either.

If anything, I've stated in no uncertain terms my unstinting praise for BH's product(s).

As for the rest: things are what they are.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

ehh, xeno didnt exactly offend me, he just unknowingly hit a nerve is all.
its what umutov accused me of in an IM after i filed the reports on these with the MP - that i 'made the whole accusation up in order to increase my sales'. if only.

OK. That makes sense.

Sorry to have struck that nerve, BH.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Deja vu, Gabe. Sorry, man.

"those that know me can appreciate how much self-control i am exerting at this very moment." Understatement of the century.

"its what umutov accused me of in an IM after i filed the reports on these with the MP - that i 'made the whole accusation up in order to increase my sales'. if only." ROFL... Like Gabe is ever gonna be pushed for sales.

shakes head A thief is a thief. Good riddance, sorry you got stiffed again Gabe :((

First I am very sorry about you having to deal with this time after time Blackhearted. Secondly, I can't say I'm surprised, knowing about umutovs prior copyright problems.. once a thief - always a thief.. sad but true

CRITIC, n. A person who boasts himself hard to
please because nobody tries to please him.

Chelle! waves add a second, larger dose of irony to the conversation we had a couple days ago ;)

 "That which doesn't kill you is probably re-loading"

Andi! Jen! chuckles and waves ;)

Wonderful, just wonderful walking off to check up on Aiko19 Sorry it had to happen to you again, Gabriel...

Umutov gave me his Aiko Character to do a promo image on....Good job I didn't do it!!! Jesus.......no wonder I hadn't heard from him.

Huhh, thanks for images. I see on forearm and hand and hip part mostly. On forearm shape and hand shape is totally yours. I'm glad that never bought anything from Umutov.

Blast, I'm really sory to hear, Gabe. You shouldn't have to put up with this. Sadly, I was one of the customers duped with Aiko19 -the one Skyewolf mentions above- and I bought her because of the morph. It is nice to know that you are turning your morphing abilities to Aiko, I just wish it hadn't happened like this.

My store

Damn, I'm sorry you've had to go through all this yet again BH :( I also bought Aiko19, could someone please point me in the direction of the thread at PP? Either it's too early in the morning for me or I'm just blind and can't find it.

www.poserpros.com > forums > General Discussions DTigerwoman posted an announcement.

Thanks Natolii :)

so sorry this happened to you (yet again), BH... :(

I may have asked a stupid question in this thread (see post 40) but it's one I've enquired about several times at various locations and no-one has yet been able (or prepared) to supply an answer - maybe I'm just not asking the right people. What are the basics of what you can and can't sell so as to avoid copyright licence infringement? (see post 40 for the specific question I posed) As a newcomer to Poser development, if questions like this can't be answered then is it any surprise that people make mistakes or use the most straightforward approaches to hand to try and make a buck? I'd really appreciate it if someone would have a go at answering this, or at least direct me to a place where I'm likely to get a response. Sorry to be a pain.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Carodan.. firstly, there are no stupid questions. Copyright issues can be very complex, not just for "newbies".

http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=328 is a link for Rosity's copyright policy. I'm not sure if this is what you're looking for, but it's very informative and should be able to nudge you in the right direction :o)

Carodan, sorry I missed your question earlier. So, let me get this straight (because I am a newcomer to Poser development), are there any instances where you can you use existing morph sets to create a character to sell? If, for example, I use the Daz Vic3 head and body morphs in some unique combination, spawn the body parts and then create an FBM character morph - is that fair game? So long as the original individual morphs cannot be extracted from this? No. In cases where you're selling a character which relies solely on the Daz morphs, you would use an INJ pose to set the required morph values. There are several programs available to help you create INJ poses. Any vertex information supplied in your product/freebie zip file must be your own work only. Karen Copyright Mod

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

carodan there are two apps that I know of,injection magic and injection pose builder, both from Daz3d that you use to create inj/rem morph settings,so that you may distribute your custom characters,you cannot use another merchant's morph to create another character(unless ofcoarse they give you permission). if you visit Daz3d you can find more info on what you can and cannot distribute in their FAQ,or you can ask them via the forums. hope that helps a bit :0) -3dz

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

x-post with Karen and DSB...lol

Message edited on: 01/27/2006 05:59

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

LOL 3dZ ... we're the online equivalent of busses. You wait all day in the cold and then 3 come along at once :D

Thanks for your responses on that. The copyright forum looks very useful too. I'll know to ask related questions over there in future. There are so many 'grey' areas in copyright law (certainly in so far as 2d imagery is concerned) that it's just as well to ask. You've made this particular example a lot clearer. Thanks again.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Carodan, you can do the same with morphs other than Daz (example Capsces morphs), so long as you're just offering dial settings in the form of an injection file you should be ok.

Lucie
finfond.net
finfond.net (store)

LOL 3dZ ... we're the online equivalent of busses. You wait all day in the cold and then 3 come along at once :D ain't it the truth...lmao

Funny YouTube video of the week - Bu De Bu Ai

.

Blackhearted ripped off again :( .......StefyZZ has a new texture in Store so we can wait a few days or weeks she is ripped off again. I am now over 5 years in this community and have endless dejavu dejavu feelings : P Mazak

Google+ Bodo Nittel 

Lucie. Part of the beauty of Apollo (including the Capsces morphset) is that he has the ADS system, so you can save ADS character poses and distribute them freely. No utilities needed - It's very easy. The problem I have (this should probably be a new thread)presently with Apollo is that I'm using a number of my own morphs in conjunction with the default, Cole and RKane_1 morphs(which have yet to be re-released and are a large set on their own). I didn't really want to produce something that ended up being so complicated and had so many requirements. The idea was it would be an option for those who don't have the time (or perhaps the skills) to wade through tons of fiddly morphs. Also, the resulting file sizes from having all those morphs intact in a figure have implications for how many characters you can have in Poser at any one time. This can be addressed but again requires some level of skill that many Poser users might not have the time or inclination to learn, especially if it's a hobby. But the copyright issue is very important and I appreciate how necessary it is for artists to be able to protect themslves. I guess it's one of the dilemmas created with Poser content being largely developed by seperate individuals as opposed to larger companies. Makes the Poser world so complicated at times, but on the other hand has developed so many fantastic ideas.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

:( I am very sorry to hear about what happened. The product in question looked suspiciously familiar to me but I thought, maybe it is just inspired by popular trend in morphing?

sigh

kitty5

www.Bucketload3d.com - where cool freebies are ~(==^..^)

ive been debating that for future morphs, i could actually modify the mesh. currently, a custom morph like GND, can be injected into basic free V3 and used even if the customer doesnt have any of the V3 morph packs. if they do, however, they can inject the retail morphs overtop of GND for further tweaking (different heads, larger breasts, other details, etc). the drawback of this is that copyright thieves can just inject it into V3 at varying strengths and use it as a base point for their own morphs. what if i were to do this: id actually like to modify V3 on the mesh level. somewhat like jimB did with supermodel vicky. there are areas where i could add a lot of really neat detail if i could go in there and make a few cuts here and there. by modifying the mesh i would have to distribute it with PCF encoding, which adds an extra step for the customer (downloading the small free utility and extracting the .obj). in the parts of the body that i altered, the V3 morphs wouldnt work. so for example, if i remodeled her abdomen area you wouldnt be able to inject any of V3's abdomen morphs there. however if i leave areas such as her head, hands, feet, etc alone then morphs for those areas should still work no problem. the advantage of the above is that i could do things with the V3 body that are currently impossible even with very extensive custom morphing. ie: a mesh-edited/morphed vicky would be to GND like GND is to vicky's base body. since it is being distributed encoded based on the original V3 object, i could do some tricks with the CR2 as well. the cons would be that it would add an extra step for the customer (encoded obj), and that it would not be able to accept many of V3's torso/leg morphs from her retail morph packs. it would also be virtually impossible to steal. cheers, -gabriel

What would that do to clothing? i.e. for what I know, if you're adding tricks into the CR2 -depending on what you do- it might be very difficult if not impossible to fit existing clothing to the new morph, and then we'd be in a situation where we would have to clothe a full new figure, or spend some time with a clothing converting utility to solve this. Wich is great for you, but puts us customers in quite a pickle. Personally, that is one of the main reasons why I haven't got any of Jim's models, and why I find your morphs attractive: I can always add the morph through the Tailor, or approximate things with magnets, to be able to use all the wardrobe that I currently have for V3, without having to start duplicating library items.

My store

im not referring to moving joint centres or anything that would alter how clothing would fit. i could, however, add JCMs and such for parts of the body. this could affect how clothing fits, however i could simply include a 'JCM Off' pose for when she is clothed in converted clothing. much of my upcoming clothing will be dynamic, so fitting will be much less of a problem. i used to swear by connforming clothing (ad actually hated dynnamic) but the more i use dynamic the more i see that its a far superior solution to many of the problems many types of conforming clothinng face. i dont like to reveal much about what im working on but youll see in my next product what i mean. cheers, -gabriel

I, for one, would go absolutely insane over a V3/BH/GND model if in modifying you could do something about the shoulders/arms/elbow situation. I mean, GND is a total homerun knockout (you did a great job making her feel like a REAL, sexy woman) EXCEPT for the ridiculous MilFigure arms, etc. Now, such a change would be in the bones/rigging, not just in the mesh. I would not care a fig if I had to encode the obj. I'd bet you could overcome user resistence to it, also. Any hope Gabriel? ::::: Opera :::::

Thanks for clarifying that, Gabe. You're right, converting clothing into dynamic might be the way to go for this, I'm just wanting to kick myself for not thinking of it :) I'll wait to see what you have up your sleeve; I've purchased quite a few of your products in the past, and I trust the quality will only keep improving.

My store

ive been debating that for future morphs, i could actually modify the mesh. currently, a custom morph like GND, can be injected into basic free V3 and used even if the customer doesnt have any of the V3 morph packs. if they do, however, they can inject the retail morphs overtop of GND for further tweaking (different heads, larger breasts, other details, etc). the drawback of this is that copyright thieves can just inject it into V3 at varying strengths and use it as a base point for their own morphs. what if i were to do this: id actually like to modify V3 on the mesh level. somewhat like jimB did with supermodel vicky. there are areas where i could add a lot of really neat detail if i could go in there and make a few cuts here and there. by modifying the mesh i would have to distribute it with PCF encoding, which adds an extra step for the customer (downloading the small free utility and extracting the .obj). in the parts of the body that i altered, the V3 morphs wouldnt work. so for example, if i remodeled her abdomen area you wouldnt be able to inject any of V3's abdomen morphs there. however if i leave areas such as her head, hands, feet, etc alone then morphs for those areas should still work no problem. the advantage of the above is that i could do things with the V3 body that are currently impossible even with very extensive custom morphing. ie: a mesh-edited/morphed vicky would be to GND like GND is to vicky's base body. since it is being distributed encoded based on the original V3 object, i could do some tricks with the CR2 as well. the cons would be that it would add an extra step for the customer (encoded obj), and that it would not be able to accept many of V3's torso/leg morphs from her retail morph packs. it would also be virtually impossible to steal. cheers, -gabriel Yeah, encoded files are a major problem, I was spending a lot of time on supporting Glamorous Jessi just sorting out the encoding problems until we final converted her to a serial number matching protection. DAZ takes care of the GV and IV protection with their installers, but I gather you wouldn't want to sell at DAZ. ;-) I feel native mesh figures work better than highly morphed ones though, they bend better (as the bending doesn't actually take the morphs into account). The files are much smaller, too, of course.

Gabe, don't say impossible. As soon as you do you'll regret it. Yes it'd mean more work for a rip off artist But if it can be done by you it can be undone by someone else. It makes no sense to me why they'd rather rip than let their work stand on its own merits. Oh yeah, their own work doesn't have years of satisfied customers standing behind it. I really am sorry that this happened to you, yet again. That other innocent parties were pulled into it too. That time and resources had to be eaten up by all those concerned by something so easily avoided. I am pleasantly surprised that there's no pitchforks visible yet. I can't wait to see how Aiko19 looks once you get done with her ;) We may not always see eye to eye but your work speaks for itself. Who knows, maybe a Blackhearted morph job on her will get me using her.

I closed my eyes and saw heaven, I opened them and the face before me was heaven on earth

Sorry to hear this, Blackhearted. I know it is very disconcerting to see one's own creations being sold by someone else. :(

" Gabe, don't say impossible. As soon as you do you'll regret it. Yes it'd mean more work for a rip off artist But if it can be done by you it can be undone by someone else. It makes no sense to me why they'd rather rip than let their work stand on its own merits. Oh yeah, their own work doesn't have years of satisfied customers standing behind it. " well, by 'impossible' i mean in relation to the current system of distributing custom morphs. look at it this way: right now there is one person distributing mesh-level modified 'morphs' for V3 - Jim Burton. currently with a morph of the existing mesh, no matter how complex, all a thief has to do is inject it into V3 at any of millions of possible strengths and start disguising away with V3 morphs or magnets. (im not saying this wont be spotted, so noone get any ideas, hehe). but if i modified the mesh, it would have to be encoded, and the alterations to the mesh would be highly unique. someone could no longer 'inject' the morph into their own creation, and anything they did with it would also have to be distributed as a PCF-encoded object. since there are very few (read: 1) merchants currently distributing characters like this, you can bet your ass that if a new one released such a character i would be examining it under a microscope to see if they had used my material. just ask jim - how many copyright violations has he had with his SMV character? and that was pretty much the first non-daz 'morph' (im calling it a morph to simplify things here) of V3 on the market and is still around over 5 years later. "I can't wait to see how Aiko19 looks once you get done with her ;)" ack, you guys really need to stop making such a big deal out of this, hehe. i already have an Aiko morph ready (a la GND) for the past year, but daz isnt getting that one. i just need to figure out what to do with her head - there are so many different anime melon styles that i havent picked one yet to suit the body. i started working on the PP one this morning, and it will be a remorph of the Aiko body such as the one included in the aiko19 pack. the people at poserpros are doing the INJ and textures and such. i shouldnt be in the spotlight for that, its a case of the poserpros admins getting together and rectifying a situation for the customers. cheers, -gabriel

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=1066531

Well I experimented with GND morphs and Aiko as soon as I got her and discovered that if you inject them fully, you get the full body equivalent of a shrunken head LOL! But if you dial them all down to between .5 and .7 you get an amazingly lovely body. Same with the Bernadette face morph. There's a head shot in in my gallery of Aiko sporting the Bernadette head morph set to about .6 and wearing GND skin. :) It's called System Crash because it was the first thing I did after the devastation of my corrupted 180 Gb external... *edited to include link

Message edited on: 01/27/2006 13:11

Admin: http://www.artistsagainstcensorship.com
Artist: http://www.skyewolfimages.com

so basically what i was asking is: (if you are the type of person who purchases custom characters - please no 'i dont buy custom morphs because..' posts) if a morph offered a highly enhanced body shape, and some other improvements, would you hesitate at the inconvenience of having to download a small (141kb) free application to decode the character. this would only have to be done once, upon install - you are basically just pointing it at the original V3 object that you have to have installed on your system. before i go any further with the idea it would be nice to know roughly what percentage of people would see this as an off-putting inconvenience.

" Well I experimented with GND morphs and Aiko as soon as I got her and discovered that if you inject them fully, you get the full body equivalent of a shrunken head LOL! But if you dial them all down to between .5 and .7 you get an amazingly lovely body." thats exactly how it was done on aiko19, unfortunately. many people are totally unaware of the fact that all of the mil3 morphs are compatible with all of the figures. it makes copyright infringements much more tedious to spot because you have to examine aiko, sp3, etc characters even if your morph was released for V3 (and vice versa).

Nope. I download Capsces clothing fits for Hitoro and Rayne and those require decoding. I don't find it an inconvienence if what I'm getting is superior. :D

Admin: http://www.artistsagainstcensorship.com
Artist: http://www.skyewolfimages.com

Yep, as I said, I commented to a friend that she looked like what I got if I dialed down the GND morphs. That's why I didn't buy her. I found the texture to be substandard and I wasn't going to pay money for something I could do with something I already had. I only wish I had thought of the idea that he'd stolen it. :( I might have been able to save you a month of grief. It never even occured to me that that's what he'd done. Unfortunately, I tend to only see the good in people until it's too late.

Admin: http://www.artistsagainstcensorship.com
Artist: http://www.skyewolfimages.com

I'd buy it Gabe. And do have some of that other merchants products as well. It's a whole 2 seconds work to decode it. It's a "necessary evil" in some cases. And I do see exactly what you're saying above. But we all know infringers get more clever as their ways are found out. That's why I cautioned about saying impossible :p Yes, the folks at Poser Pros are wonderful. I can not say enough how much I appreciate the admin over there!

I closed my eyes and saw heaven, I opened them and the face before me was heaven on earth

I'd have no problem using a decoding utility. In fact, I have purchased several products that required decoding - including some of Jim Burton's - and I never regretted those purchases.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

Sort of .. Only because that application isn't available for me :) It is jsut a lot more work thatn the two second decode for me and sometimes it doesn't work.

"Only because that application isn't available for me :) " im guessing youre on a mac? is it not mac compatible? are there any alternative 'difference file' type software options? would be neat if daz created an installer with this type of thing integrated that 3rd party creators could use. right now we are pretty much limited to INJ morphs, and thats it. a shame - so much more could be done.

FWIW, it wouldn't put me off buying the product if I liked it. I've used many pcf encoded files in the past and I have no objection to using them in future. Anyhow, if it helps to protect your copyright, I'm all for it.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Yep .. The one you linked to does have a compatable one for OS9 or classic but not for OSX. (Macconvertor) I didn't check the link before but I thought it was the rte one, which currently, doesn't have a version for either variation of the system.

as someone who purchased glamorous jessi and downloaded play with poser's mizuho, i'd have to say i'm kind of on the fence. so decoding was not at all an undue pain in the tuchus with GJ. but then, as far as i know, there aren't several versions of jessi. i didn't think there were that many of aiko, but i couldn't decode mizuho for aiko le, even after re-downloading her. now, i have aiko full as well, and that decoding worked (i just worked at decoding the other cause, damn it, it should have worked). even though mizuho's creator had a very good read me, and my file fit the description, the decoder wouldn't recognize my aiko le file. oh, and i think he had to include multiple versions for different times of dl'ing aiko. i assume belbel won't have that problem, but she's being distributed by daz with aiko le. so with the decoding issue, i'm a bit wary about it working and think that it could be a big headache for merchant, especially considering v3's had 2 or 3 updates (meaning 3 or 4 versions). the trouble decoding takes is minimal, and worth it for a unique or otherwise useful morph. i'd definitely risk the trouble for a product i really liked and/or a merchant who is fairly visible and accessible in the community. basically, i'd have to be unafraid that the merchant would help me if there was a problem decoding. the other issue is extensibility. i'm about as interested in appropriating someone else's idea of beauty wholesale as i am dealing with dmv. i wouldn't have bought miki if she didn't have face room support, and she was only a little more (at the time) than you tend to price your figures. if a figure had one fixed form and v3's joint problems, i wouldn't pay a lot for it. and one appeal of GJ was that jessi doesn't have that many morphs. so i wasn't losing affordances with using her. and, jim please correct me if i'm wrong, i believe if i purchased shahara's bryn for jessi, it would still work on her. also, it would come across as purposely breaking affordances to me. david, s3, aiko, hiro, luke, laura, mattie, matt, the mill baby 3 and v3 can all share morphs. they might look whack, but it works. if freak and m3 were differently grouped, they could too. that's a lot of variablility without needing to actually redo the mesh. if it didn't take existing morphs (like, for instance, dodger's aeon group do), i'd feel the character was deliberately inflexible. that said, an inflexible character would be fine for the load and render crew. i think most people who buy your stuff now wouldn't mind- there are lots of serious blackhearted fans. on a completely separate note, i'm interested in you making dynamic clothing. i definitely prefer it for a lot of clothing types and situations. just out of curiousity, have you tried the conforming / dynamic hybridizing jim burton, english bob and trav are playing with? it seems like the best of both worlds. if you haven't already seen them and in case you're interested, there are threads about it here and at poser pros.

I'm just glad this stopped the steady stream of his (or her) annoying spam.

"just out of curiousity, have you tried the conforming / dynamic hybridizing jim burton, english bob and trav are playing with? it seems like the best of both worlds." cough :) i dont like revealing my work until its actually in the store. theres remains a legally acceptable yet morally questionable attitude of trolling the product showcase forum for product ideas. its no secret that i work slowly (clothing for gnd has been a long time coming), but its because i want to iron out all of the possible issues with it and make sure everything is to the best of my ability. ive been burned before when ive revealed what i was working on and a 'quicker' merchant beat me to release with practically my own product.

Personally I would have no problem purchasing an encoded product IF I thought the product was of a high enough quality to bother. Having purchased from BH's store before, I would say his stuff easily qualifies. That said I probably wouldn't buy an encoded character if it made existing clothing obsolete. If my existing digital wardrobe still worked with the new character (or worked without too much tweaking), then yeah, no problem.

just ask jim - how many copyright violations has he had with his SMV character? and that was pretty much the first non-daz 'morph' (im calling it a morph to simplify things here) of V3 on the market and is still around over 5 years later. Yep, zero, I think, but we did have one guy around here that was claiming HE made her... ;-) I would suggest resizing your figure a bit too, though (V3 is too tall anyway), Glamorous Vickie could be reverse enginnered into a morp set, it would be almost impossable to do that with Ingenue Vickie, who still can use most of the DAZ body morphs (they will all work, only some aren't really right). Sure, existing clothing will not fit, but you can't make an omlet without breaking eggs. Cobaltdream- actually GJ can't use any Jessi morphs other than head morphs, because I had to move most of the joint parting around to get her to bend right. She'll take head morphs and textures, though. Anyway, the technology DAZ uses on their installers (called LOCK,) is available for licence, I think, but I'm under the impression that it is pretty pricey, Renderosity might be able to swing some kind of a deal though, and (maybe) sublicense it to vendors, or something. Other than that, you got Objaction and RTEncoder, the first only does OBJ files and only runs on PCs and pre-OSX Macs, the later doesn't work (mostly) on Macs for reasons I'm not going to go into. I has GJ set up using both, and I bet a lot of the customers downloaded both versions, too. (What, read the instructions on the page? ;-) )

As an Eternal Judy fan, I had to go thru encode to get her going, both for my Mac and PC licenses of Poser. No Problem! 3Dream provided a clear set of instructions. I did not mind the step, because I knew the vendor had a VERY GOOD REASON for proceeding this way...and the result was worth it. ::::: Opera :::::

Same here. I don't mind decoding.

He really accused you of making this up, Gabe? That takes some serious... brass. I guess he doesn't realize that people who do the actual creating don't have time to play games like that. Sorry to hear this. :-(

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

Gabe I scan all the poser markets every day to keep up with whats out there ... mostly so PW doesnt squash some little merchant by accident ... and its a habit from when I was a mod :) So if theres anything in specific you'd like me to keep an eye out for .. or any other merchant you know... email me (lyrra@renderosity.com) as for Umutov .. I had my suspicions of him more than a year a go. So .. not entirely surprised. Your new body morph sets are fabulous ... not my kind of gal but still gorgeous work :) Lyrra

" He really accused you of making this up, Gabe? That takes some serious... brass. I guess he doesn't realize that people who do the actual creating don't have time to play games like that. Sorry to hear this. :-(" im sure of all people he knew that i didnt make this up. i wasnt going to post any of this, but i just cant resist posting this snippet because of the absolute @%#$ing hypocrisy of it: "Dont forget that you getting my products pulled out temporarily doesnt mean anything. If you read the Renderosity TOS, they pull out any product as soon as there is a complaint. If I wanted to start throwing around accusations about your products, they will have to pull them out too. However, as I said before, that just isnt part of my business ethic and is not the way that I do business. I hope that one day you find some ethics and learn about clean competition, you could even try using them. I wish you success in your life." shakes head

No offense to Blackhearted, but I think that this whole situation should have been kept private. It was obviously dealt with quietly and no one even knew what happened until Blackhearted mentioned it. I think there is a time and place for everything, but "behind the scenes" business and character assassination, regardless of who it's about or what it's about just shouldn't be happening on a public board.

I'm sorry for all the parties concerned, but I really don't like the fact that moderators/admins allow this stuff to go on in public.

Message edited on: 01/27/2006 22:22

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

so the whole issue should be swept under the rug, and two weeks later umutov should reemerge with some excuse about removing his store, smelling like roses? or set up shop at 3DCommune tomorrow with noone the wiser? 'character assassination' thats pretty rich, given the circumstances. there is no need to assassinate him, he committed Seppuku when he submitted my work in at least 6 submissions to two separate sites. the 2 lines i posted are quite relevant, IMO. i found it monumentallly ironic that someone in his position was smugly lecturing me about my business ethics. if you dislike my stance, thats fine. if/when you become a merchant and find yourself in a similar situation i will be interested to see how you react.

Quote - if you dislike my stance, thats fine.

I dislike any stance that involves airing private dirty laundry in a public venue. Like I said, it's nothing personal against you. I just get tired of seeing private matters aired publically.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

The apocalypse is at hand, because I'm agreeing with Gabe, AGAIN. ~waits for lightening to strike~ This is the way it has always worked, just that normally there's much more venom involved. (As a matter of fact, I think I'm not the only one surprised by the calm attitude by Gabe.) We can go back to the Bytemeok and GothicAngel infringement case tactics. On second thought, lets not.

I closed my eyes and saw heaven, I opened them and the face before me was heaven on earth

Quote - This is the way it has always worked,

That doesn't make it right.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

"I dislike any stance that involves airing private dirty laundry in a public venue." ahh, i see. because this matter was merely some little personal spat between myself and umutov? like quarreling over who gets the TV remote? these werent the first claims filed against him here. i bet you didnt know that? as for these at hand - not only did he involve at least 3 collaborators and a poserpros original bought outright by daz, but also all of the customers who purchased these products in good faith. this involves everyone, and while i wont vent anywhere near my full wrath on this guy, neither will i sit by and have this issue swept under the rug. if you wish to continue this discussion by all means send me an email. i refuse to allow myself to be baited here any more.

Aww c'mon Gabe, it's not like it's your livelihood or anything. /sarcasm

I closed my eyes and saw heaven, I opened them and the face before me was heaven on earth

Bait is for fish. So unless you're a fish, you aren't being baited :)

I want to ask what you hope to accomplish here, or rather, what more do you hope to accomplish here?

You've already made public something that was dealt with in a private manner.

You must have had more motive than trying to be helpful to the original poster who was looking for the person's store, otherwise a simple "He doesn't have a store here anymore" would have sufficed. It seems to me that you didn't like the fact that it was dealt with outside of the public eye and wanted to see that it was turned into a public scandal.

By making this public you've accomplished making him a pirriah in the whole poser community. He obviously won't be able to have a store anywhere. If he posts anywhere he'll more than likely be subject to ridicule and shunned. Whatever reputation he had (and I'm sure not all that he did was bad), has been destroyed.

What more do you want? He apparently was banned as a merchant, not as a member and is more than likely reading this thread. What's your goal? See him jump off a bridge?

I don't know him, but I know people, and I'm sure he probably feels pretty shitty and humiliated about what's transpired. Whatever he did, right or wrong, he's still a person and no one deserves "this"!

So tell me.. what do you feel is enough public humiliation for him? How long do you go on kicking an injured dog?

Message edited on: 01/27/2006 23:26

Message edited on: 01/27/2006 23:31

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

This is a friendly reminder to keep things civil in here. Thanks Angel1

....Now Bring Me That Horizon....
Send IM | Gallery

The question about Umotov's store was answered in the second post. Why has this thread been allowed to continue into what it has?

Message edited on: 01/28/2006 00:01

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Acadia Letting the public know that a certain merchant is a known thief .. is good business tactics. Now anyone who has anything else by that merchant will know to doublecheck it and make sure they dont have stolen goods. Also anyone else at other sites doing a background check on him will know to be careful about business dealings. Reputation is very important in business. As for him being a social pariah? its less than he deserves for theft and plagiarism. He brought his troubles on himself. Let him reap his own rewards. I dont beleive in playing nice with rulebreakers ... he did it he deals wth the consequences. End of story. This is the mellowest thread of this type I've seen in a long long time and I applaud Blackhearteds restraint. Lyrra

Oh so things should be done Like Last time he had a copyright issue.. kept in the quiet and letting him make "an update" - ie letting him know he'd get away with it.. just so that he goes and does the same thing all over again? yeah, that's really smart

CRITIC, n. A person who boasts himself hard to
please because nobody tries to please him.

"Airing dirty laundry in public" does not cover publicizing the actions of thieves. And I fail to understand why anyone would not want to know that a person they are about to do business with is a thief. M

Acadia said > I don't know him, but I know people, and I'm sure he probably feels pretty shitty and humiliated about what's transpired. Whatever he did, right or wrong, he's still a person and no one deserves "this"! I say > The hell he doesn't deserve this. IMO he's not feeling the way you think, he's probably laughing his ass off he got away with it for so long. Think he's gonna give Gabe his $$$ back w/o a court order? Doubtful. So, Gabe loses $$$, RO loses $$$(in refunds & $$$ paid to him) & he gets banned as a merchant & labeled a thief. Not a fair trade, by any means IMO. He's not a martyr. He's a thief. Huge difference in My book(& Webster's). ~Thomas

(in response to earlier posts) blackhearted- oh, ok, i guess i understand. i didn't think hybrid clothing was a secret. english bob has a hybrid freebie, and i assumed jim burton's peignoir was going to product. since you had missed umutov's products (he was quite vocal about them in the forums), i thought you might not have come across the hybrid threads. i didn't mean for you to divulge any trade secrets - just let you know something that might interest you. jim - that's what i thought. i didn't think bryn had a body morph (but i haven't looked closely).

I have to agree with Lyrra on this one. Gabe is showing monumental restraint, and frankly the possibility that Umutov is sitting reading this thread wracked with guilt a-la "I don't know him, but I know people, and I'm sure he probably feels pretty shitty and humiliated about what's transpired. Whatever he did, right or wrong, he's still a person and no one deserves "this"!" is laughable. No, you don't know him. Neither do you know his history nor the fact that only a week ago he decided to publically in a forum accuse me of ripping people off myself just because I called him on his abysmal manners.( and no, I'm no thief, Rosity pulled his posts immediately ) THAT's the sort of person we're dealing with. Sympathy ? Pah.. let's save it for someone who actually lost something here.

I have a product by this merchant. He gave it to me for promo renders, about a year and a half ago. The MP was not involved, he sent this product directly to me. If not for this thread I would not have known of his involvement in copyright violations and his banishment from the MP. I checked with store admin whether the product I have is OK, I wouldn't have known of any problems if not for this thread! So letting us know about the copyright violations was a good move. There's a few big differences between this thread and the nasty BMO business back then. First, this thread is much more civil, and second, there's no speculation about the infringement - it already has been proven. Kudos to Blackhearted for his professional and restrained attitude in this matter.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

I'm with the people who think this sort of thing should be made public, once proven - as it has been here. The single most important thing that will deter others from ripping off merchants is the knowledge that if they are found out they will be named and shamed. Entirely proper in my view.

Steve

CobaltDream wrote: i didn't think hybrid clothing was a secret. english bob has a hybrid freebie, and i assumed jim burton's peignoir was going to product. since you had missed umutov's products (he was quite vocal about them in the forums), i thought you might not have come across the hybrid threads. i didn't mean for you to divulge any trade secrets - just let you know something that might interest you. I was kind of fascinated in the direction this thread had taken since I've been following the hybrid threads over at PP's. Sounds like Gabe has a real good idea, here. I didn't think the hybrid clothing stuff was a secret, since, I've been playing with it on my own since first getting the idea from EnglishBob's PP post. I think that if Acadia hadn't requested, late in this thread, that we all be quiet re umutov's alleged theft, this thread would have continued on in an informative way. I was liking the chat about altering original meshes, and hybridizing clothing. Acadia, you brought the thread back to what it started out to be. Gabe, please hijack it back to the direction it was taking :*)

CobaltDream wrote: i didn't think hybrid clothing was a secret. english bob has a hybrid freebie, and i assumed jim burton's peignoir was going to product. since you had missed umutov's products (he was quite vocal about them in the forums), i thought you might not have come across the hybrid threads. i didn't mean for you to divulge any trade secrets - just let you know something that might interest you. I was kind of fascinated in the direction this thread had taken since I've been following the hybrid threads over at PP's. Sounds like Gabe has a real good idea, here. I didn't think the hybrid clothing stuff was a secret, since, I've been playing with it on my own since first getting the idea from EnglishBob's PP post. I think that if Acadia hadn't requested, late in this thread, that we all be quiet re umutov's alleged theft, this thread would have continued on in an informative way. I was liking the chat about altering original meshes, and hybridizing clothing. Acadia, you brought the thread back to what it started out to be. Gabe, please hijack it back to the direction it was taking :*)

Frankly, I would want to know the products that have been proven to be infringements. I own a few of his (Umutov) earlier products from this store and I want to know if they are safe to use... Acadia, Since you don't like these type of thread, don't read them. However, in this case, since Umutov has done this more than once apparently, I rather doubt he is sitting back wracked with guilt. Nor was he ignorant of the laws and site rules. Gaurie over at PP trusted umtov and brought him into to PP specifically. Umutov violated that trust... How would you like to be in those shoes?

"i didn't think hybrid clothing was a secret. english bob has a hybrid freebie, and i assumed jim burton's peignoir was going to product." its not :) what one chooses to do with it might be, i suppose. i feel like an idiot for having avoided the cloth room so long. i used to think it was too clunky and a waste of time, but really you can set up a dynamic cloth render in less time than it would take to adjust a bunch of fitting morphs, JCMs, yank around body handles, etc, and the resulting clothing is far more natural. i think with all of my upcoming clothing i am only going to be supporting poser 5+. i know some people are clinging on to poser 4 - i was one of them - but its really time to give it up. once you get used to them, the materials, renderer, cloth room, etc are very big improvements. having to package for 4 different types of poser - one of which (poser4) required an entirely separate section in the readme, totally different MAT poses for everything (gets to be a chore when you have like 60 mats), etc was also getting to be a little too much. with the coming of poser7 that would have been 6 applications we had to test in, in addition to two platforms. "Sounds like Gabe has a real good idea, here." its not my idea, at all. i just pay attention - a lot of material has been posted here and at poserpros by jimb, englishbob and even the OP. cheers, -gabriel

***i feel like an idiot for having avoided the cloth room so long. i used to think it was too clunky and a waste of time, but really you can set up a dynamic cloth render in less time than it would take to adjust a bunch of fitting morphs, JCMs, yank around body handles, etc, and the resulting clothing is far more natural.***

Yeah, me too. My only saving grace is I did (finally) get started on it awhile ago. ;-) While it surely isn't a cure-all, it does open up all kinds of new possabilities in posing and rendering. Sure, it takes awhile to setup and run the simulations (I'm including animation poses in my sets to set the users up to speed), but all the new things you can do...

The hybrid peignior / negligee set is going to market, just as soon as I get another Dynamic set or two out first to get people more comfortable with this whole dynamic thing. I only wish DAZ Studio supported it.
Message edited on: 01/28/2006 10:23

Public or not..one thing that really makes me sad is that I had to read this tread to find out that a poroduct I bought was a copyright violation. I had to write to Renderosity and ask, and the reply I got was an email that was sent out to all the customers that had bought the item. That's is not true, I have never recieved that email, and I would never had known if I hadn't read this tread. After I got that message I can see that I have about 17 dollars in instore credit, but it is not easy to find, cause it lies together with my purchase history as a number only..I never open those new things..I look in the items..not the ordernumbers. So I wonder how many else who has bought some of this items, and NOT recieved a message about deleting it and the copyright violation..cause I did not until I contacted renderosity myself. And I am pretty sure that there is a LOT of people in here NOT reading this forum. And what about the instore credit..do I have to use that, or can I claim my money back?..I wanted THAT item, maybe nothing else. Cause actually I have decided not to buy from hee for a while..the whole Marketplace is a totally mess I think.

Hi Hedda, Sorry you didn't receive the email that was sent to you. Make sure you check that the correct address is listed in your profile and that you are able to receive mail from Renderosity (Hotmail commonly decides of its own accord that Renderosity mail is spam.) Regarding the question of refund vs instore credit, please contact store@renderosity.com who will discuss this with you further. Karen

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

.

========================================================
Typing Advisory :
Read at your own risk! May cause
dizziness, naseua,drooling, and temporary blindness.
Surgeon General recommends running the txt through a spell checker.

Not good enough Karen. ISP services like Verizon also treat Renderosity like Spam and it is on teh customer to make sure that they receive e-mail? Bull. Maybe you need to contact those services and get this site whitelisted. I don't feel it is right that we have to chase around to findout if products we own are effected... I have Umutov pieces, but I feel that because of when I bought then, I'm SOL... You tell me if that is right.

JUst to jump back into this thread for a secons (glad I read down long enought to see the stuff on Hybrid clothing), I've been a fan and experimenting with it since English Bob (who I give credit to as the one who started me thinking about it) for about 6-8 months. I think it has GREAT potential! It allows areas of the cothing to reatain it's shape, as a conformer, while other areas flow, as dynamic. There are some issues with it that can make it a bear to work with. There are alos som areas where Psoer could be improved with better tools, but the potential is fantastic. As for it being a sectret, I can't see that. I've been very open and available to answer questions here and at PP. So has Jim and English Bob. The technique is fairly simple. I've posted on it several times, and would be glad to help anyoone who asks, if I can, time permitting. But I can respect that someone may not want to post his/her original product until it's ready. Attached picture is of one of my experimental hybrid dresses, can't do that with a conformer! Absolutely no Post work involved.

Looks sweet! Is the skirt a clothified body part, or is it a parented prop?

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

Hi Natolii, Sorry you feel it's not good enough. If you have purchased any of the affected items, you will have received a refund. If you have purchased other items which aren't in violation, then you may continue to use them. Karen

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

svdl, The skirt is an integrated Dynamic Group. It's still a single piece dress that loads and conforms. Then you use the cloth room, just like you would a full dynamic clothing item to match the Dynamic skirt to your pose. THe top of the dress, from the waist up is conformed and not affected in the cloth room Here's another pic, excude the poke thru at the elbow. mike

And how do we find THAT one out Karen?

Gabriel, You're a talented dude. I've been watching you develop and get better and better for several years now. I've also been watching this same story repeat itself over and over for years now... Don't you get tired of this shit? How is it you haven't "gone postal" yet? Or should I say "recently"? ;) You're talking about altering the V3 model, but why not take your ability to the next logical order of magnitude and just come up with a whole new mesh? It'd seem that would give you even more control in the long run.

I use an hotmail account Karen, but I always recieve ebots about my fav artist who upload images, I used to get mails about products in my wishlist on sale, and I have never had any problems before to recieve messages from Renderosity. I also checked my spam, and there was no mail there either. I have renderosity in my secure list. When I recieve new messages I can see if there is any in the spam box too, but there has not been sent out an mail to me about this product. Maybe I have many items that are in copyright violations..there are products that I have bouht before that I haven't found in the Marketplace when I've searched to give credits. This is kind of scaring me...since I did not recive this one..maybe there are others too.

"Don't you get tired of this shit?" yeah. but what would you have me do? quit entirely? and believe me, i did go postal - just not in the forums. putting out a new mesh isnt exactly easy. in the pro 3D world you basically just have to model the character, perhaps rig it, and its ready for sale. here? modeling a new figure would be the easy part. after that it is months of creating JCMs, facial expressions and phonemes, basic morphs, etc. and creating a proper rig for it in poser - which is a nightmare. unfortunately (and some will disagree, but i dont want to get into this here), putting out a mainstream poser figure is best left to the studios like daz or zygote. an individual, or even a small team, cannot hope to compete - especially considering that V3 is free. by making V3 free daz pretty much killed any present and future competition in one stroke. if you release a free model, it had better be at least as good as V3 for people to bother making addons for it - the true lifeblood of a product line. if you make one for retail sale, then it had damned well better be significantly better than V3 or offer something she does not. so far i have not seen a figure that does this, sorry. not to mention that daz further has us by the balls by going after people who try to use similar joint parameters or UV mapping as V3. the real backbone of V3 is the hundreds of gigs of free and retail add-ons that people have produced over the years. by offering a new figure you basically are telling people 'set aside what you have, and buy all new items'. for something remarkable they may be willing to do this now and then - but surely not on a weekly basis and surely not for a product that isnt significantly better or remarkably different than V3. and, unfortunately, the only 'competing' models i see everyone making seem to have the same body style as V3, the same facial style, etc, worse joints and a dirtier mesh... and of course far less support in terms of textures and clothing. i would love to model something entirely different, but i am not willing to sign over the next year of my life to creating a CR2 and all the poserizing that needs to be done for her. not to mention that after witnessing some of the recent fiascos there are very few people i would trust to contract it out to. hopefully poser7 will have a much improved, industry standard rigging system, and with more dynamic cloth and a more natural rigging figure creation will be much more accessible to everyone. the current system of dozens of JCMs, CR2 hacks, etc are bullshit - the current poser rigging is unacceptable, it has been unchanged for nearly a decade now. the only reason it has survived so long is because of the near-heroic efforts of people like nerd, philc, anton, drax, etc who have discovered totally undocumented ways to text edit a CR2 to create workarounds to poser's shortcomings. CR2s get more and more bloated with these workarounds, however, and the end result is never as good as it would be if poser had a modern rigging system to begin with. currently poser has an acceptable renderer, a decent cloth room, support for advanced shaders, yet the thing that has remained unchanged in so many versions -- and is the most in need of revamping - is the rigging system. so please, when the 'what features would you like to see in poser7' thread pops up, dont say 'radiosity' or 'particle generation'. the way we are headed well have full physics, particle generation, radiosity, etc in Poser7 yet still an archaic POS 10 year old rigging system that just doesnt cut it. cheers, -gabriel

Can anyone provide a complete list of which products are on the "bad" list? I have one item in my purchase list that is a collaboration between U and Orion1167... Which brings me to another thought: you know, I feel really badly for the folks that he's partnered up with at various times. I'm giving the benefit of the doubt here and assuming that none of them knew what he was up to.

Quote - I think that if Acadia hadn't requested, late in this thread, that we all be quiet re umutov's alleged theft, this thread would have continued on in an informative way. I was liking the chat about altering original meshes, and hybridizing clothing. Acadia, you brought the thread back to what it started out to be.

You are incorrect. Go back to post 122 and you'll see that Blackhearted himself began to post the contents of private messages he received. That's when I stepped in and in post 123 suggested that this should have been kept private and not turned into a public scandal.

Message edited on: 01/28/2006 14:23

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Excellent reply, really, and I hadn't looked at it that way. "...yet still an archaic POS 10 year old rigging system that just doesnt cut it. " Yeah, I agree with that. I've used the Setup Room to make my own modifications, but that's limited, because it's just f%^ked up the way it's programmed.

"...yet still an archaic POS 10 year old rigging system that just doesnt cut it." and so instead go to the other option which is a 13 year old archaic rigging system of greater complexity...

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

trav, blackhearted, jim burton - i look forward to the time when your work is available. the hybridizing is a perfect example of exactly why i'd like more merchants to fully support p5/p6. yeah, i can play in the material room to improve a ppp optimized product, but it won't be at all at the level it would be if done by a good merchant with a better skillset and a coherent vision for the piece. i enjoy learning, and i'm making my own forays into learning more about the material, cloth and hair rooms. i'm not just wishing for a point-n-click solution. i'm not an expert, and if most of the experts stay back with ppp technologies, i'm positive a lot of interesting and beneficial avenues of exploration will be missed. thank you all again for your information on hybridizing.

Well I just heard about this and WHOA I cant believe it... wait, actually, I can. People make me sick with their petty crap :insert pukey face from msn here: Ive dealt with theft on several occasions, but never infringements. Sad part tho is... either u quit or u put up with it, coz nothing is infallible. And quitting is sooo not an option. Hopefully we're all lucky enuff to catch things like this when they happen. Ill keep my eyes open better now for sure.

Acadia... as far as I, and it does seem many here, feel (and I am sorry if I am speaking out of turn, I do not mean to speak for anyone but myself but if you feel the same, please chime in) that thieves like Umatov can find a nice little warm corner of Hell to rot in, as far as I am concerned. He forfieted support from me and from many in the community I would surmise, when he decided to steal another's work.

I am overjoyed this thread happened not only to inform me of a criminal's actions and his identity but also for the informative discussion on technology, preventative measures in the future, and the future of hybrid clothing.

Sympathy is best spent on those of character, not thieves.

Message edited on: 01/28/2006 20:32

On the topic of hybrid outifts... Is it possible to make a piece "in the middle" of a set affected by the Dynamics and then go BACK to conforming. I am sorry if I am being unclear. As an example, could you have the upper "puffy" part of the shoulder of the dress be affected as Dynamic cloth only to return to Conforming? I ask this question in consideration of poets shirt and similar things with puffy sleeve but uniform cuffs.

and so instead go to the other option which is a 13 year old archaic rigging system of greater complexity... Actually, I've found it easier to go to a One year old rigging scheme known as LightWave 8.5, where there are neat little helpful things such as weight maps, and options which don't leave you guessing about what they mean. :)

RKane 1, to answer your question... Yes I believe it is possible to do that. I can exactly tell you how to do it yet. Not that it's a secret, it's just that I'm still working ont that very technique. So far, things look promising and I'll probably post some thing on it in the near future. mike

" Can anyone provide a complete list of which products are on the "bad" list? I have one item in my purchase list that is a collaboration between U and Orion1167..." " Frankly, I would want to know the products that have been proven to be infringements. I own a few of his (Umutov) earlier products from this store and I want to know if they are safe to use..." "If you have purchased any of the affected items, you will have received a refund. If you have purchased other items which aren't in violation, then you may continue to use them. Karen" i must interject here. the following products were removed for including material from my GND2 pack, as well as material from Daz: DownUnderGirls: Nell (both RO & PP versions) DownUnderGirls: Rui (both RO & PP versions) Mikazuki (RO) Aiko19 (PP original) now i spotted 3 infringements both here and at poserpros. i noticed other infringements as well, however i did not report them all because the first 6 pulled were very blatant ripoffs and i wanted this case resolved as quickly and smoothly as possible. the first 6 were clearcut cases of infringement, while others were more obscure - i did not want a defense mounted on the harder to spot ones and deliberately diverting attention from the blatant ones. this does not mean that the rest of his store is 'perfectly OK'. there are at least two more that i saw in there that are highly suspect of using my morph, and there were some products pulled from PP that highly resembled AS Shanim's material yet they had no chance to examine them before the store was yanked. now i dont want to make this into a huge issue which shakes customer confidence, so im willing to let the others go until i see him start to set up shop elsewhere. but that hardly entitles anyone to assure people that the rest of his store is 'safe'. before my copyright claims were filed he already had a claim by a pretty big merchant, and one of his products was pulled. then my claim removed 6 products across his 2 stores here and at poserpros. i saw at least 2 more i didnt report, yet. thats nearly half his store. youre going to tell me that with such a track record you are going to give him the benefit of the doubt on the rest of his items? cheers, -gabriel

Late Bookmark Sorry your going through all of this gabriel. Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Thanks, Trav. I would love to see some poofy sleeve shirts and such! smile Lemme know when ya crack it! smile

Gabe, if the items haven't been investigated and found in violation, and therefore refunded, then the purchasers have a right to continue using it. If you want to prevent them using it then you're going to have to file a copyright claim on that too. Karen

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

done.

the "MidnightFever - Lilly" V3 character was also a copyright violation, not of Blackhearted's work, but of yet another top merchant. This particular item was officially investigated and found to be in violation.

Acadia, you say you don't know Umut, but you're sure he feels horribly. I know him well enough to respectfully disagree with you. My guess based on past interactions with him would be that he's feeling angry and petulant, and that he considers himself the victim in this situation. And I really doubt that he's holding up a mirror when he's wondering who to blame. And yes, I absolutely think it should be made public knowledge when a merchant is proven to be stealing other people's work. As a customer, I don't want to buy from someone with multiple copyright violations, and as a merchant I certainly don't want to work with them or develop add-ons for what might end up being a stolen product.

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

I for one am glad to know what's going on. I have zero interest in buying from a merchant that I know willfully stole another's work--and from what I'm reading now, he's done it before? Had I known that, I wouldn't have bought anything from him here. And like I said earlier, I feel badly for his partners because his actions have hurt them as well. Hasn't he recently joined up with the Pretty 3d team? And I know he's worked with Orion1167 on at least one product. Their reputations have been tarnished now because of this guy.

Well as the one who, perhaps unfortunately, started this thread, I'm kind of glad, as I was going to spend money on some of his items. I know the money would have been refunded if it was one of the tainted items but it would have still been a hassle. In addition it allows other merchanst to look as well. I hope none find any more problems, but... mike

I for one am glad to know what's going on. I have zero interest in buying from a merchant that I know willfully stole another's work--and from what I'm reading now, he's done it before? Had I known that, I wouldn't have bought anything from him here.

Exactly.

Given the number of infringements discovered, it really makes you wonder about all his products. I remember when he was a newbie, desperate to become a merchant. I was amazed at how much and how quickly he improved (and, yes, bought a couple of his products). Guess he took a few shortcuts. :-P

And I, too, appreciate the way this was handled. No public announcments until it's proven, infringer banned, and refunds given. That's the way it should be done.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12357&Form.ShowMessage=2560095

For those interested, another debate on this subject referring to Us as Lynch-Mobs involving infringements has popped up. Link above. ~Thomas

Burn witch! Burn!

g

Before we burn him at the stake, we must ask ourselves: Is hanging truly 'too good fer 'em?' I mean, burning takes a lot of effort and fire control. A rope you can reuse again and again. Just trying to be environmentally conscious here.smile

I ain't burning anyone at the stake. Have you seen the price of fuel lately? There's little kids freezing in Tblisi...

"if you make one for retail sale, then it had damned well better be significantly better than V3 or offer something she does not." Mimic ready anus would be a good selling point

i just spit coffee out of my nose do you know how much that hurts?

gabe, you weren't alone. I may never be the same.

I dare you, while there is still time, to have a magnificent obsession. --William Danforth

If you've got a Mimic Ready Anus, you're my newest best friend! o.O You people are really crazy you know that don't you?

I imagine the mimic-ready anus is for renders of politicians and preachers, who always talk out of their ass...

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

ROTFLMAO! I can think of one of those in particular but I won't name any names. o.O

rotflol

refunds are also just going out for Michiko, so add her to the list of infringements as well.