Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?ForumID=12356&Form.ShowMessage=2557923

Why are they allowed?

Why do the mods/admins allow these types of threads to be posted, or to continue once it's turned into a lynching thread?

In the copyright forum for example, I've seen merchants making complaints against fellow merchants for possible copyright infringment. There are proper channels for a merchant to take to lodge a complaint...a form to fill out. Why are they posting their complaint in a public venue? Why aren't those threads locked or deleted and the merchant told to follow the proper channels?

I also see people posting complaints about gallery postings there. Why aren't they encouraged to PM one of the moderators for that area?

Sometimes the accusations turn out to be true, other times they prove false, but eitherway the damage is done.

The other day someone posted in the Poser forum asking for some information about something involving another site. The site owner addressed the concern very early in the thread, yet the thread was allowed to continue for along time afterward and it turned into a virutal trial of the site and it's owners. The reputation of a site was damaged because of a misunderstanding that was rectified early on, but the thread allowed to continue into a lynching trial.

People are innocent until proven guilty and that same ideal should hold true here, and the moderators and admins should be doing something to deter people from making public complaints and lynching people without just cause.

Threads like that do nothing to bring the community together. Nothing at all.

Message edited on: 01/27/2006 23:51

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

"People are innocent until proven guilty and that same ideal should hold true here, and the moderators and admins should be doing something to deter people from making public complaints and lynching people without just cause." To say how things are run here will only bring great wrath upon One Self....but, I feel it is a "Leadership" Problem. Awaits "great wrath"

What's wrong with trying to make the community a better place?

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Well for one, in the thread you linked to it's pretty much a given it's been "proven" unless you want it proven in a court of law. Two sites have already pulled his stores. I'm not quite sure why you think it should be hidden though. All kinds of criminals have their names posted in the newspaper before they've even been to court. Police blotters are a matter of public record. I think if you polled people it would be fairly split about whether it should be allowed or not. Some people need to vent, some don't. Let people vent and if you don't like it, don't continue reading those threads. (Note, I'm only referring to the issue in the linked thread not the other ones you asked about. The ones before anything have been "proven" should be handled differently.)

These threads are a common way for merchants to gain publicity. There are a few old hands in there.

Acadia, lol You ain't seen nothing. You should have seen the constant bitching before they hyper devided the forums. Turned them into a glorified lookup table. I live on a river just down stream of a good size lake. The river is straight and deep enought (about 12 feet on average). It is like totally a no wake zone. Wakes bang boats against docks and wash out yards and developed shorelines. Well, when we moved in when someone would go flying down the river in a speed boat or jet ski people would run out of every home up and down the river- yellin at them to "Slow the hell down asshole". It became almost a game, a way to bring residents together. Pats on the back kinda thing. Community! After a few years that has died away. Mostly. It feels good. Make ya feel superior. Makes you feel your in the right. And dosn't accomplish a damn thing!!! Here at RR it was so bad that it actually was hurting sales across the boards. Causeing constant fighting. Constiant distress. Constant fear among picture makers. A real true "witch hunt" mentality. Now many of the "Warez hunters" have gone. I happen to agree with Cirestfot It's a leadership and a policy problem. The real fix is to make site policy that ONLY the copyright holder can post a complaint. And ONLY through channels! As it is and has been, see something, bitch about it, weather it's any of your business or not.

I don't know how long you've been around this site, Acadia but that thread is the most civil and mellow of all of the copyright infringement threads do date. I've butted heads with Blackhearted on that very issue before and his behavior in that thread is above reproach. It was actually turning quite infomative.

The poser corner thread should have been handled differently but once a store states that their merchants have the right to re-write their own TOU, that is a matter of public discussion. When their site is stating one thing and a person makes a purchase based on that they need to stick by it and not let their merchants annoy their customers with their own TOU.

That said, I believe a persons first offense should not be a public thing. I know others disagree but people are human and make mistakes. As this appears to have been Umutov's second (third?), he had that consideration already given to him the first time around.

"The real fix is to make site policy that ONLY the copyright holder can post a complaint. And ONLY through channels!
As it is and has been, see something, bitch about it, weather it's any of your business or not."

So geoegress, if someone spots a copyright infringement they are to do nothing about it? In some cases the copyright holder has nothing to do with Renderosity or 3D in general and would never know they were being ripped off if someone didn't point it out.
When that arguement is used to defend a merchant who has ripped someone off it's pretty hypocritical.

...... Kendra

I don't dig lynch mobs, seeing those innocent souls swinging from a tree, but I reckon youse guys won't ever swing the other way, and start going after snitches instead. like this local t-shirt seller was trying to peddle stuff in the 'hood, and he quickly found out that t-shirts with messages like "Increase the Peace" don't sell, whilst t-shirts saying "Snitches get Stitches" are hot sellers.

So if a merchant is ripping off somebody else's hard work, we aren't to say anything, just let innocent customers continue to buy the stolen merchandise? One free stuff provider or one artist on another site or one merchant only has one pair of eyes. This community has many, and a long memory to boot! If a thread gets ugly, just stop reading it. You don't slow down and gawk at a bloody accident, do you? Yet, passing the occasional accident warns everyone of the dangers of illegal speeding or passing, and a half dozen folks will get on their cell phones to put the alert out so the proper authorities can get involved. Carolly

Kendra :) I don't know of a single merchant that dosn't have an email. Including myself. Who would love to be told something 'might' be afowl. Even if they are not a merchant here they do still have the right and the tool set to file a complaint. You (ppl in general), when you go public are makeing the assumption that something nafarious has happened. That could easily be a mistake. I have myself given permission to a couple of other ppl to use parts from some of my products. Many eyes are a usefull tool, no doubt about it :) But only ONE voice is valid. Any others are just gosip. If you think a possible infringment has happened, then by all means send the owner an IM or an email. Let them decide on what to do. Then butt out. For you to go to such a black and white extream is unfair to me Kendra. I never said do nothing. Yet you make my point. There are many shades of grey. And the best eyes are those who have a vested interest.

hauksdottir on 1/28/06 16:08 So if a merchant is ripping off somebody else's hard work, we aren't to say anything, just let innocent customers continue to buy the stolen merchandise? Absolutely. See carolly, if you say anything, to them, then we won't be able to form the lynch mob, to go after the poor shmuck who's still using the product, completely unaware that there is a copyright problem with the product.

"In times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act" ~George Orwell

@Geogress :) You're just as guilty of not reading as you accuse me of hon. I have always advocated going to the staff or the merchant and not posting these accusations publicly. - Always - You don't like the way your statement was made into black and white but you wrote it that way whether you meant it that way or not. And no where in my statement did I say anything about a public lynch mob type of accusation.

As I said, take it to the staff. Reasons for going to the staff rather than the merchant could vary. I would not want someone accusing me of wanting to eliminate competition as I'm not competitive in the least when it comes to this marketplace, and I know that's happened to others.

...... Kendra

I'm curious Acadia, as to why you posted this publicly rather than a private letter to the Staff.
You posting a link to a thread seems to only draw yet more attention to it.

It seems to contradict the very point you are trying to make in your post.

I have to disagree with the statement that the threads do nothing to bring the community together.
The way I see it,is a thread with 169 relatively civil post by dozens of community members,assembling to fight a common goal,certainly doesn't seem like it's tearing the community apart.

Tom Edited for Tie-Poes

Message edited on: 01/29/2006 00:29

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

What's wrong with trying to make the community a better place? Nothing. And there's nothing wrong with pissing in the wind, either. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

It's obvious that the thread was planned by the perpetrators in order to bring attention to the alleged offense. This extension, in this forum, is presumably, for the same purpose.

" These threads are a common way for merchants to gain publicity. There are a few old hands in there." thats not the first time someone has insinuated that - the first to do so was umutov himself. i dont want any publicity here. if you noticed, i hardly even post in the forums anymore - ive barely said anything here in years, whereas before that i was one of the loudest voices in any discussion. i just want to mind my own business, do my work, make a living and be left alone. i would gladly have avoided this entire issue altogether - but it has occurred, through no action of my own. i didnt solicit him to steal my work and pass it off as his own. you think i enjoy having my hard work pilfered by someone so arrogant and conceited, resold for 4 months under his name at 2 different stores, and then having him IM me with smug remarks about how my reporting him for these violations will be but a minor inconvenience for him? i only wish you become a merchant, release something worth stealing, and have something like this happen to you so you can feel what its like. i cannot begin to describe to you how i felt at 2am friday morning over a week ago when i looked at his promos in his store and started recognizing my work.. then clicked the next product and saw it again, and again, and again. the feeling when realising that some of them have been in the store since october. not to mention the rage when he sent me his smug IMs, or the frustration ovver the week of my life that he wasted when he does not deserve even a moment of passing consideration. this person feels no remorse whatsoever. not over the theft of my work, nor the theft of as shanim's or daz's. he feels no guilt. the only thing he feels right now is anger at myself and the store admins who banned him - he sees this as an 'injustice' to him. it still hasnt sunk in - and probably never will - that only he is to blame for this happening to him. and please, enough with the 'there is good in him' and 'im sure he is so saddened by this...' posts - dont make me puke. a quick search in the merchant forum for his name and you will see exactly what a sweet, helpful and ethical person he is. he was a shining beacon of virtue at renderosity. rolls eyes " It's obvious that the thread was planned by the perpetrators in order to bring attention to the alleged offense." alleged offence? have you seen the comparisons? 6 products have been pulled by two stores, and i have just reported one more. both stores examined them, as well as daz and 3rd parties, and there wasnt any doubt. he included daz V3 morph information in several of the packs that was unaltered - and could be mathematicallly compared. if by 'alleged' you mean that he hasnt been convicted in a court of law then you must be mad. if the only way for someone to be seen as a thief in the community is if i spend months of my time and thousands of my dollars to have him extradited from australia to canada and charge him formally in a court of law over the theft of an intangible internet item that made a few thousand dollars tops, then noone will ever be seen as a thief and copyright violations will run rampant because that is beyond the reach of even a full studio like Daz3D's resources. its the knowledge of the anonimity and relative freedom from criminal prosecution that the internet affords that gives these people the nerve to do these things in the first place... then people like you and acadia flock to their defense - for god knows what agenda - and make it even worse. what is your agenda btw? you would be happy to just sweep it under the rug? just pretend it didnt happen? well, im not going to let that happen, and you can argue in here until youre blue in the face and its not going to change that in the least. wherever he decides to show up, under whatever nickname, ill be there to point out just what type of person he is. i did not ask for this to happen - nor did i do anything to invite it. it has happened though, and i am fully involved now, and im damned well going to make certain that he never does this again, anywhere, to anyone.

I don't consider that a Lynch-Mob type thread. I actually was glad to hear about it. As for your perception, I see it as being slightly tainted. I'm guessing your a TRUE Realist, meaning > there is no famine in the world, no 6 year olds shooting class mates in schools, no terrorism, no homelessness, & god forbid NO theft. As for the publicity crap.... Gabriel doesn't need it, not IMO. His items, art & reputation speak for itself. Just My opinion on the subject. Take it.... or leave it(which will probably be your choice) But, I'll still back Gabriel & His right to defend His copyrights 110%. ~Thomas

Wait? There's a lynch mob for Umatov? Am I too late? Who has the rope? I brought bean dip and salsa! Where can I set up my lawn chair?

I'm part of a lynch mob? COOL! Wait if that was a lynch mob, what was it in the past, because past debaucles have been MUCH worse. I, for one, am glad that it was made public. I already knew about it via my own channels. If I'm not mistaken, his store had only been gone, in its entirety, less than 24 hours when the post was made. Would you have him back here selling tainted goods? Oh, silly question, of course you would.

I closed my eyes and saw heaven, I opened them and the face before me was heaven on earth

1. Some people need to be lynched.
2. Few things bring a community closer together than expelling a poison element within.
3. "Can't we all just get along?" is so 90's.

I generally try to keep out of these things but I can no longer sit back and watch a fellow merchant and talented artist being forced to defend himself when he is the one that has been so blatantly and wilfully violated by someone whose general demeanor and attitude have been nothing more than self posturing arrogance.

A man who upon seeing himself heading towards being in the Top 30 Merchants ranted for days about how wonderful his work is and how so many of the products in the MP were not even worthy to be in the Free Stuff section. Apparently an area that he doesn't hold in very high regard either. A man who has often said how so many hated him because of his success and obviously envied his talent.

Please don't tell me that for one minute, Umutov is humiliated or embarrassed by any of this but if he is, then he should have thought about that before he stole Blackhearted's work. Oh but wait! this is not the first time he has been caught and he comes back for seconds or thirds ? ...give me a break!

If these two stores were in a strip mall, and one shop owner broke into the other's store, stole items, altered and sold them as his own creations and was found guilty, we'd hear about it on the evening news with all the gory details along with a nice mugshot. Nobody would be calling the television station to protest at the humiliation and embarrassment caused to the thief, so why is that being done here ?

The offended party would be sure to discuss his experience with his family and friends and probably other store owners in the strip mall. Isn't that what is happening here except that he is the one being castigated and the thief is getting sympathy ?

...there sure as hell is something wrong with this picture.

This is not a lynch mob. Blackhearted did not start this thread and he is not the offender here. I for one, never want to see things like this swept under the rug and customers like you and me, left to wonder if what we purchase is 100% legal.

Starting a thread to protest about the content of another thread and including a link to what offended you it is totally counter productive to the desired result and to suggest that it is/was a publicity stunt is not only ludicrous but downright insulting.

STORE:
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=KymJ
GALLERY:
www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=KymJ

I was holding myself on the original thread, but i couldn't do it when i read the OP, because it sounds like we're all a bunch of greedy monsters.

The "without just cause" part of the OP's post is interesting and even laughable in this case, since it is more than clear that it IS indeed a case of theft.

As for bringing "the community together", well.. I as part of the community certainly don't want to see thiefs taking advantage and making money out of other merchants sacrifice and work without even recognizing they are wrong.

Attitude is not the way to go, excusing the poor little robbers neither, and i am really glad that thread happened so everybody knows that is NOT ok to play others, sooner or later you'll be caught and it won't be pretty.

We're not dealing with an innocent child here, we're dealing with an adult who was smart enough to know what to do in order to make an easy buck, so let's not excuse him like we excuse a child shall we?

Quote - and to suggest that it is/was a publicity stunt is not only ludicrous but downright insulting.

I never said or even suggested anything like that!

Quote - Would you have him back here selling tainted goods? Oh, silly question, of course you would.

Of course not. However, what does patting Blackhearted on the head and saying "Poor you!" over and over again, or continuously bashing the offender accomplish? Nothing.

Quote - a fellow merchant and talented artist being forced to defend himself when he is the one that has been so blatantly and wilfully violated by someone whose general demeanor and attitude have been nothing more than self posturing arrogance.

Defend himself against what? It's extremely clear that he is the wronged individual, so why does he feel a need to defend that?

My point is that this whole situation was taken care of by the site staff in a very professional manner. An investigation was done, the violator was banned, refunds were given, and all without turning it into a public scandal. There was no need for it to be made front page of the "National Enquirer" so to speak. BH was wronged, yes, but justice was served and the situation taken care of.

What more is there to say about the matter?

Please don't get me wrong. I'm not without sympathy for Blackhearted, or anyone else who has been wronged in such a way. However I'm also not a fan of scandals and "bashing" people regardsless of who it is. I feel that type of energy is so negative and could be expended in a much more positive way.

Quote - Attitude is not the way to go, excusing the poor little robbers neither

I hardly think that he was "excused". Apparently he was banned from being a merchant here and elsewhere. Anyone who has read that other thread won't every buy from him again. The chances of him being able to return to the Poser community in any fashion is pretty slim, if not nil. I hardly consider that "excused".

Let me ask you all something. According to Blackhearted, Renderosity and a number of other people, this person "stole" and committed fraud. Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages?

Message edited on: 01/30/2006 15:54

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Acadia, the "excuse" word was actually refering to your post, which sounded apologetic and in his favor, and i don't think i was the only one who read it like it that.
You said "People are innocent until proven guilty and that same ideal should hold true here", which was NOT the case, that is why it sounded to me like you were "excusing" the offender.
If i read it wrong, i apologize.

You know what? Gabe and I have never been friends, but make NO mistake. He is the victim in this situation. And I'm not even going to waste my breath (or my keyboard) on the idiotic notion that he orchestrated any of this for publicity he doesn't even need.

The Umutov I know is the same one KymJ posted about. All he ever talked about was who was being unfair to him, who was standing in the way of him being in the top 30, and how many products were inferior to his work. Oh wait, maybe I should say the work he ripped off.

As far as "only one voice" being valid for copyright complaint, I totally disagree. Let me give you an example. Say frednewmerchant posts a set of tiling textures for sale. Along comes Bonni, who sees that the textures were all copied pixel for pixel straight out of Activision's Trading Spaces Design Companion. Do we let her report it and handle it internally? Or do we get the copyright holders involved? Suddenly we're talking about a major software company and a major cable network (The Learning Channel). They might not play as nice as Gabe has, or as DAZ does. They've got no reason to care whether Renderosity stays in business or not. Before you laugh, I reported a newbie merchant here last year for a very similar violation. It was handled quietly and internally, and AFAIK the merchant is still selling here. Maybe you've bought some of his/her products. :-)

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

Acadia, We are dealing with an international community. Should Blackhearted have to fly to wherever umutov lives in order to hire lawyers and file suit and wait months for a court in another land to determine damages? How much of his creative time ought he to spend to recover some of what he has lost? Meanwhile, this is not the first time umutov has taken an ID and plagiarized the work of other artists. He WILL be back, in some form, plying his trade again and ripping off other merchants again. He has no remorse and no sense of shame. Some people have reformed, once caught. However, if a person has done this at least twice, under two identities, we can feel justified that they will never reform, but continue to take the easy way... by siphoning sales from others. Once might be ignorance, twice is a pattern! The only thing we as a community can do is stick up for the people who actually create original work and shun the thieves whenever we see them. This requires publicity, not secrecy! Oh, we can also shop carefully. If someone is tainted, I don't even use their freebies. Reputation is everything. Carolly

Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages?

It's generally not worth it - going after someone in another country, paying the lawyers, etc. You'd spend more money than you'd get back. (Though every once in awhile, you run into someone who's more interested in setting an example than in money, and will jump through all the hoops and take it to court.)

That is one reason why the traditional punishment for thieves in Poserdom is ostracism. They usually are not punished in any other way. They don't have to give back their ill-gotten gains or go to jail. Instead, they're shunned.

Patting Blachearted on the head? I'd be the last one to and he knows that. But when a wrong has been committed I'll be there to defend the injured parties, period. And make no mistake Gabe, As Shanim and any merchant who partnered with him are all injured parties. Has anyone stopped to think where those refunds came from? It wasn't just r'ositys cut and Umuts cut that had to go back to customers. So if any of them wanted to come to forums and pitch a bitch, I'd not blame them. Instead they're choosing to chalk it up to lessons learned. Atleast this time it wasn't a merchant resource that left hundreds of merchants affected as well and scrambling to fix products that should've been OK to begin with. Hmm have you got the thousands it takes to prosecute a half dozen cases of copyright infringement? Make that International copyright infringement. No? Neither do most of us.

I closed my eyes and saw heaven, I opened them and the face before me was heaven on earth

Let me ask you all something. According to Blackhearted, Renderosity and a number of other people, this person "stole" and committed fraud. Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages?

IIRC, umutov is a resident of Australia.

Pursuing someone via an international lawsuit for the type of money that we are likely discussing here simply wouldn't be to the financial advantage of the wronged parties involved. Such an attempt would cost a lot more money than it would ever recover. Assuming that the effort was able to recover anything.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages? No offense, Acadia, but this statement shows how very little you know about legal proceedings. There is a LOT of time and money involved with taking someone like Umutov to court. Perhaps you neglected to read what Gabe said in post #16? if by 'alleged' you mean that he hasnt been convicted in a court of law then you must be mad. if the only way for someone to be seen as a thief in the community is if i spend months of my time and thousands of my dollars to have him extradited from australia to canada and charge him formally in a court of law over the theft of an intangible internet item that made a few thousand dollars tops, then noone will ever be seen as a thief and copyright violations will run rampant because that is beyond the reach of even a full studio like Daz3D's resources. And I just don't see how it's a bad thing that potential customers and partners have been warned that Umut has had two stores closed for willfully violating multiple copyrights.

One goes into the house of eleven eleven times, but always comes out one. -River Tam

"My point is that this whole situation was taken care of by the site staff in a very professional manner."

No, that is not your point. Your point is that you don't like people talking about this subject, so you started an entirely new thread hoping to gain support from other dandy flower people.

"What more is there to say about the matter?"

Whatever we want, up until the forum mods decide otherwise. That's the way a forum works.

"However I'm also not a fan of scandals and "bashing" people regardsless of who it is."

I am a fan of bashing people who do bad things. That's one vote for, one against. I guess we'll need a tie-breaker.

"Let me ask you all something. According to Blackhearted, Renderosity and a number of other people, this person "stole" and committed fraud."

They are correct. Let me ask you something. Do you cry when Simon makes fun of someone on American Idol?

Quote - and to suggest that it is/was a publicity stunt is not only ludicrous but downright insulting.

I never said or even suggested anything like that!

No you didn't and I didn't mean to suggest that you did but it has been said in this thread, albeit not by you :)

Quote - a fellow merchant and talented artist being forced to defend himself when he is the one that has been so blatantly and wilfully violated by someone whose general demeanor and attitude have been nothing more than self posturing arrogance.

[QUOTE]Defend himself against what? It's extremely clear that he is the wronged individual, so why does he feel a need to defend that?[/QUOTE]

I didn't say he felt the need, I said he was "forced". If someone started a thread that involved me or my products, I would want to set the record straight too. Given the tone of some of Gabe's posts, this is about as restrained as I have ever seen him and highly commendable IMHO.

[QUOTE]My point is that this whole situation was taken care of by the site staff in a very professional manner. An investigation was done, the violator was banned, refunds were given, and all without turning it into a public scandal. There was no need for it to be made front page of the "National Enquirer" so to speak. BH was wronged, yes, but justice was served and the situation taken care of.[/QUOTE]

That's true too but the actions of Umutov are far worse than scandalous and justice is a long way from having being served.

Scroll back and read what Gabe had to say about what is involved in hauling his ass into court...you got a lazy million sitting in the bank you want to donate towards seeing it happen ? :) A million might be a slight exaggeration but trust me, it would cost a small fortune made even worse by the fact that he's in Australia.

It's not a case of bashing for the enjoyment of bashing. It's just outrage on the part of merchants who spend weeks and months working on a product, putting their heart and soul into it only to turn around and have it stolen and customers who spend their hard earned money here, only to find that they can't use what they bought. It's not like he stole so he could make a pretty picture, which would be bad enough... he deliberately stole in order to line his own pockets.

Things like this affect everyone because it puts doubt in the mind of customers, it reflects on Renderosity and costs them money and it completely wastes the time of the merchant whose work has been stolen. Merchants and customers need to know that they can purchase products here with confidence and you will never stop people from speaking out in the harshest terms against those who deliberately choose to take the wrong path thinking they will get away with it.

STORE:
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=KymJ
GALLERY:
www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=KymJ

As for the "publicity stunt" angle that's come up in these threads a few times --

No, this wasn't a "publicity stunt" -- other than perhaps on umutov's part. But it kind of backfired on him........

However: pointing that aspect of things out doesn't stop the reality of the fact that "any publicity is good publicity", at least when it comes to marketing. In the past, I've had a couple of merchants who were involved in bru-ha-ha's of one sort or another admit to me that they enjoyed a sudden spike in their sales during the bru-ha-ha's prime time forum run. It wasn't usually FUN for the merchant: but they did sell more stuff for a while.

I realize that some people don't like hearing annoying truths like this at such a time as this: but there it is.

BUT -- for the sake of anyone out there who is half-bright, let me be clear: I am in NO way, shape, or form implying that anyone involved in this situation "set this thing up" in the interests of obtaining publicity. It's clear that a theft was committed here, and that the theft was committed with intent. It wasn't an unintentional stumble of the sort that merchant newbies sometimes miss in their work. This one was deliberate. So, no: this wasn't a "publicity stunt".

It's one thing to point out the natural effect of....uh......"bad" publicity. That's merely an empirical observation. But it would be another matter entirely to suggest that the bad publcity came about as the result of a planned-out scheme.

Conspiracy theories aren't my bag. Although they can be entertaining.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

i agree with trav that what Mark-uk said was very unkind, and unwarranted.

@ trav --

Don't let it bother you, my man.

Just answer back this way: "Well....if I am a shill, at least I come by it honestly. Unlike some others."

It'll do.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Ruh-roh. The dreaded thread-lock request. I must be at renderosity.

Ruh-roh. The dreaded thread-lock request. I must be at renderosity.

Yeah. They're a bunch of meanies around here. Always trying to make people be civil to each other, and all that.

Party poopers.

:p

I have to agree 100% on one point, though: a thread-lock request is not the way to do it. At least not effectively.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I guess I'd better get something in here before it gets locked.

Hmmm...OK,

Why can't we all just ...get along?
-Jack Nicholson in Mars Attacks

Message edited on: 01/30/2006 17:13

I applogize for my earlier post. Upon reflection the proper response is the one I will now take, simply not to paticipate in this discussion. mike

Trav, no need to apologize. Also no need have the thread locked. Just tell Mark_UK you don't care what he thinks. Nice 'n tidy. Point made, no thread lock required.

Acadia said:"However, what does patting Blackhearted on the head and saying "Poor you!" over and over again, or continuously bashing the offender accomplish? Nothing.: Well, first of all, Blackhearted has the softest hair. It must be the condittioner he uses or perhaps he has a stylist. Whatever the reason, patting his head is an aesthetic treat. You really should try it. Continuously bashing the offender. Well, thats just the really fun part. smile It makes me smile. Thats what it accomplishes. Are you sure we can't hang 'em? ---------------------------------------- Acadia also asked:"Let me ask you all something. According to Blackhearted, Renderosity and a number of other people, this person "stole" and committed fraud. Why aren't official legal proceedings being taken against him to recover damages?" Isn't Umatov an Aussie? Maybe a thousand or even two thousand dollars was puschased (I am just estimating). Going after him would mean trying the matter in Australian court as a foreign plaintiff. Maybe the fact that it would cost more to go after him than it is worth? Maybe outing him or "bashing" him, as you say, is all that can be sought for right now considering finances. Acadia. He has it coming. What are YOU accomplishing by telling us to stop dragging it out when every response you give only drags it out more? This guys gets what he deserves. Sorry you don't feel that way, but as a consumer, I feel quite happy to this guy hung from the yard arm. We can't say ENOUGH bad things about him. And frankly, I am HAPPY to see the community gather together in arms against him. If anything, it has bettered the community. They now stand united against all that would try this again. It may act as a deterrent, it may not. But it is heartening to see all these people stand as one against a criminal. I'm happy to be a part of a community that won't stand for such a thing. You can call it "bashing" if you want. To me, its just good healthy outrage. Blackhearted, in my opinion, has acted like a saint. He has been helpful and informative. Umatov is a thief. Why waste ANY sympathy on him.

Quote - Umatov is a thief. Why waste ANY sympathy on him.

I don't consider sympathy/empathy towards any living thing to be a waste. I guess that's where I differ from many of you. It's a good thing you aren't in the medical field. I'm a nurse and prisoners get sick and need to be hospitalized from time to time. I've looked after some of the worse case offenders you can imagine, in addition I've worked in pychiatric nursing on locked wards looking after people who have been deemed too mentally insane to stand trial for their heinous crimes. I treat them just like anyone else, and not because it's part of my job, but because I really care about people and all living things in general. Some may find that hard to believe or to even understand, but that's how I am and how I was raised. I'm not ashamed of that. :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

quote:I guess that's where I differ from many of you. see, you do differ from us. yet those of us with differing opinions, moral viewpoints, or values should not be brought to task by you who ADMITTEDLY differs. difference is a good thing.

Great! You are a nurse. Now lets consider EXACTLY what has happened to the poor, poor Umatov. Has he been physically beaten because of this. Hmmmm.....no.... Has his life actually been imperiled? Hmmmmm....no.... Have a few people let him know that they despise that kind of behavior and let him know it is not welcome in the community?.... yes.... Have a few harsh words been said about Umatov and his behavior?.... yes.... Has he been banned from selling?.... yes... As a living thing, he was not imperiled. While you were dancing on your moral soapbox, Acadia, you failed to realize words are the only thing we have in an interent forum. Would I really want to see him hung for his thievery. No. I wouldn't mind if he had to be imprisoned for a while and then pay the money back that he stole from BlackHearted. Since we have no way of enforcing that, unfortunately, we must resort to the social punishment we have left. Ostracization. We are talking out loud about how we despise the practice. We are upset and duly so over a criminals actions. So we talk about it. We chastise him for it and "bash" him as you like to say. So what? If he reads it and his feelings are hurt. Oh well. I doubt from what I have heard about him he will suddenly come to grips with what a weinie he is and give back the money he stole. It lets Blackhearted and others who have been wronged vent to the community and when we vent back about Umatov, it lets them know they are not alone. That we too do not support that type of behavior. They feel more a part of the community and maybe don't just get fed up, fold up shop, and decide not to sell anymore stuff cause they feel their community is ungrateful or supportive. Since you liked giving extreme examples... what if you were stolen from and there was special gag order forbidding you to talk about it with ANYONE about it. You see people in the community want to know where that merchant went and they want to look to buy more products. You know for a fact that while he has been run off of the immediate vicinity, he may crop up again. Wouldn't you want to warn others and let them know? Wouldn't you want to look out for your community? Now, what if you feel the punishment was not harsh enough for the crime but that it was all that could be done? The social forum is all we have to discuss this. Since it truly physically hurts no one for you to bandage, there are no human rights violations going on and no harm done. Since it helps the community rally around and support the victim of a crime, it serves a purpose right there in strengthening the community. If you like Umatov so much, go bake him some cookies. We want to badmouth him. We're gonna. Whether there is a thread for it or no. The more you come here and attmept to defend him, the more fuel you give to the fire. Burn, baby, burn.

The one thing that intrigues me about all this is the person who actually posted it. Take a trawl back through the copyright forum and who has posted several new threads advising people to check out site a or site b because they are "shock, horror" stealing people's artwork. Personally I don't think it was a lynch-mob type thread at all, in fact it was exceedingly polite and well mannered unlike many in the past (and yes I can read through the archives thanks........passes my time when waiting for a render you know). As the marketplace seemingly did nothing to notify customers of this problem then how else are they going to know? Personally I want to know, I got caught out in my first weeks of using Poser because I accepted a gift from a "friend" that turned out to be a Warez item. I put it behind me, apologised profusely to all concerned and insist on gift certs or cash now rather than product - unless you are a nice merchant who wants to give me a few freebies ;o) The last thing I want is to be hit because I'm using a product withdrawn due to the vendor being a thieving little git.

 

 

I certainly don't want to have to lock this thread so I think since everyone has made their point, its time to move on:) Lets just let this thread die a natural death. Thanks Stacey Community Manager

Quote - The one thing that intrigues me about all this is the person who actually posted it. Take a trawl back through the copyright forum and who has posted several new threads advising people to check out site a or site b because they are "shock, horror" stealing people's artwork.

Excuse me? You have me mistaken for someone else, because I've never posted anything like that here. I'd appreciate you pointing out a thread where I posted something like that? I'd be interested in seeing it myself because that's certainly news to me :)
Message edited on: 01/31/2006 14:05

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Quote - The more you come here and attmept to defend him, the more fuel you give to the fire.

I'm not defending anyone. My position on this is completely neutral. What I am standing up for is privacy, confidentiality and a better atmosphere to our community. Threads like the ones I pointed out are like runaway trains where people feed off of each others' negative energy and it just keeps escalating.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

As I already said, this thread has run its course..Seems all sides have made their statements and we need to let it die out. I will lock it if needed, please move on. Thanks Stacey

Please lock it. The plea has fallen on deaf ears, so no sense keeping it open any longer. And while you're at it, please take the time to lock the one in the Poser forum as well.

Valerian70 has taken her baseless accusations to PM and as I pointed out to her based on a link she sent me where I was asking who the artist is of a particular picture (without giving a reason why I was asking), was not posting telling people to go and look for their art and expressing "horror" at stolen art. It just so happened in that case I liked the picture and wanted to get permission to use it in an animated snowglobe and I knew the image was included in a PSP tutorial at another site, so I knew the person whose site I got it from wasn't the artist.

Message edited on: 01/31/2006 14:48

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Please don't lock it... Acadia wants silence, but silence sends the wrong message to those who would ruin the Marketplace and ruin the artists who create original work by letting crimes pass unnoticed. We are being civil here. MUCH more civil than in many threads. And the issue under discussion is vital. We as a community must protect each other, or there is no community to protect. Carolly

Quote - those who would ruin the Marketplace and ruin the artists who create original work by letting crimes pass unnoticed.

I'm not asking for "silence", at least in the manner that you think, or for things to be swept under the rug. If that's what people think I'm doing, then there has been some miscommunication and a failure on my part to get my message across. What I'm saying is threads such as the ones I've pointed out shouldn't be allowed to happen in the first place. Does that mean that fellow merchants or buyers don't have a right to know that the items they have may be in violation of copyright? No. But there are better ways to handle situations such as this. In my opinion Renderosity drops the ball big time in this area. It shouldn't be a merchant or a buyer posting their story on the forums resulting in such threads as I pointed out. Renderosity should be making an official announcement either via the front page or in the newsletter saying something along the lines of: "Effective immediately, so and so will no longer have a store at Renderosity. If you have purchased items from this merchant, please contact us via email at

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Stacey - acadia is deliberately pushing to have these thread locked, its what she has wanted all along. noone else is being uncivil. when a single person is being uncivil in two separate threads, while dozens of others are having a productive and polite discussion, locking the entire thread doesnt seem like a very fair course of action. used to be that in these cases rosity would 24hr ban the offending party who didnt heed the more than half a dozen warnings both you and karen have given in both of these threads. cheers, -gabriel

We dont make public announcements around issues like this. However, We do notify previous buyers of products that have potential copyright/intellectual property issues. Please note the word potential. Renderosity is not a court and only a court of law can hand down a verdict on whether a product is truly in violation of anothers intellectual property. Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

---

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

---

Quote - acadia is deliberately pushing to have these thread locked,

Sorry, not true. Trying to get this thread locked would be counter productive to the reason behind my initial post in this thread. As for being uncivil? Hope you aren't referring to me because I haven't made any uncivil comments or attacked anyone's character in anyway, in either thread. That's not my style. I discuss and I debate words, I don't attack people on a personal level, never have, and never will. Also at the end of the day each thread is a new start IMHO. I don't carry "baggage" from one thread to another and hold grudges based on previous threads or differences of opinion. As for my commment about locking it and saying that while she's at it she should lock the one in the poser forum, I stated that because for some reason Stacey felt a need to step in and threaten to lock this thread. Seeing that the thread in the poser forum is the offending thread, and this one was just trying to present my opinion that threads like that and the other types I listed shouldn't be allowed, I felt that if she was going to lock this one, then she should also be locking the other.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Quote - We dont make public announcements around issues like this.

See, that I don't understand. Renderosity is the host of the merchants' stores, they take apparently 50% of the sales that the merchants make. I would think that Renderosity then has an obligation to notify the people who bought items from the merchant in question. After all it's your site's reputation on the line. Bad reputation equals no merchants or buyers... equals bad for the bottom line.

It shouldn't be up to any merchant or customer to announce the closing of a store due to copyright violation. By them making the announcement on the public forum the thread steam rolls into a runaway train and brings negative publicity to this site and it's merchants.

Renderosity as the owner of this site and the host of the merchants' stores has a moral obligation...no, make that a professional obligation, to deal with issues such as this in a productive and professional manner that results in the least amount of damage for all parties involved, while still maintaining confidentiality. As I stated, a simple "so and so is not a merchant here any longer, if you bought items from him, please email us" is enough of an announcement and it shows professionalism on the store host's part.

Other than the merchants who have done business with the offender, or those customers that bought items from that person, what happened is really no one else's business and for anyone to suggest otherwise is equivalent to driving by an accident and insisting they be told if someone died because it's their right as tax payers of that community.

Quote - However, We do notify previous buyers of products that have potential copyright/intellectual property issues.

Please note the word potential.
Renderosity is not a court and only a court of law can hand down a verdict on whether a product is truly in violation of anothers intellectual property.

Clint

Obviously if a merchant was banned for it, it was deemed by Renderosity to be more than "potential", otherwise why ban?
I haven't agreed with Blackhearted until now, but that is really a slap in his face as well as any other merchant in this community.

I'm tired and having a hard time articulating my thoughts so I hope what I've typed is clear

Message edited on: 01/31/2006 18:10

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I just stated that it seemed all the arguements have been made and it was time to move on and let this thread die a natural death. I still feel that way. Continuing to post here when theres really nothing left to say is really going to turn this thread down the wrong road. There are opposing opinions on this and thats fine. People stated their views so lets move on. As for the Poser forum thread, the mods and coords in that forum will do what is appropriate for their area. Sandy and I are over this forum so that is why I am talking about this thread only. Stacey

Thanks for clarifying Stacey :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/index.ez?viewLink=328

The best thing to do for anyone that has questions on how we handle copyright claims is to review our Copyright Policy at the attached link. Its clearly outlined within this document. Thanks, Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

---

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

---

Thank you Clint:) Stacey

Obviously if a merchant was banned for it, it was deemed by Renderosity to be more than "potential", otherwise why ban? Because Renderosity has the legal right to refuse to do business with anyone they please, and if they feel that there are good enough reasons to exclude someone from the ranks of people they do business with, they stop doing business with them. I don't know about you, but I certainly stop doing business with people whose products or services are of questionable legality (or quality). bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

clint - thanks for choosing to hammer home just how little you and renderosity care about us. any remaining loyalty that i had for renderosity just evaporated, permanently. frankly, i was an absolute fucking idiot for staying loyal so long in the face of how it has treated its merchants over the last 5 years.

Acadia, So what are you saying? Prevent people from talking about something? You know, we aren't children. We're adults and we enjoy discussing things, whether negative or positive. If it offends you, don't listen or comment on the thread. To say we CAN'T talk about it because it offends you means you are no better than religious conservatives who refuse to allow others to speak about a subject because it makes them uncomfortable. If you don't want to participate, go elsewhere. There are plenty of positive threads for you to join in. As it stands, we want to have our say. If you don't want to listen, then don't. But limiting the speech of others is the maneuver of fascists and dictators. I prefer to say as I wish. I think a lot of people here would as well.

"Thanks for choosing to hammer home just how little you and renderosity care about us." I think it's not a matter of how much Clint cares, but more likely, it is an issue of not wanting to be sued for libel.

with the amount of proof submitted, and the sheer amount of infringement notices under this merchant's belt, i dont see this as a potential infringement at all. while i by no means expected renderosity to announce that 'we have convicted umutov of copyright infringement', somehow i expected more after 5 years of loyally selling here than rosity publicly washing its hands of the entire issue, and thereby exonerating umutov. renderosity's public lack of support is a slap in the face.

I agree with Jeff. I've got the very strong impression that Clint would LIKE to say a lot of stuff, and possibly in extremely strong terms, but he feels rightfully constrained by his position and certain legal realities. What he believes and thinks privately are, I would bet, very much more strongly flavored than what he presents for public reading. I know if I were in his position (thank Deity, I'm NOT), I'd be much, MUCH more circumspect about what I say and how I say it. In other words, don't assume by a brief or bland response that Clint doesn't care or isn't privately furious or swearing under his breath or whatever. (I know I'd be swearing constantly in his position!) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

...and i apologise to clint and all of the people who read my previous angry post. i deeply felt that more public support by renderosity on the issue was warranted, and let my anger get in the way of my better judgement. cheers, -gabriel

I went back and read this thread in it's entirety. I made my post with nothing but good intentions because I sincerely believe that threads that rant and rave are detrimental and not very good for the community. However it seems that I'm in the gross minority when it comes to feeling that way, so I bow to the majority. When I started this thread I had no idea that it would generate the types of replies that it did or result in hurt feelings. I knew that it wouldn't be a popular position with some, but I've never been one to fall into line and go along with popular opinion when I feel and believe something else. And I'm not afraid to butt heads with people who are at odds with my views. Again, I created this thread with good intentions in mind and am very sorry for the way the thread turned out and the hurt feelings that have resulted as a result of it. It was not my intent to cause discord and division and I wish to extend my sincerest apologies if I played a part in that result.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

"I made my post with nothing but good intentions because I sincerely believe that threads that rant and rave are detrimental and not very good for the community. However it seems that I'm in the gross minority when it comes to feeling that way, so I bow to the majority."

It shouldn't be a surprise, because most arteests are halfway between volatile and murderously volatile. ;)

Although you may be feeling "wrong" for starting a thread which helps to focus everyone's ill will towards one another, you really shouldn't feel bad about that, because it's gonna happen anyway, regardless of who's the catalyst.

Now, run along and sin no more. :)

Message edited on: 02/01/2006 00:29

I've got the very strong impression that Clint would LIKE to say a lot of stuff, and possibly in extremely strong terms, but he feels rightfully constrained by his position and certain legal realities. What he believes and thinks privately are, I would bet, very much more strongly flavored than what he presents for public reading. No impression here. I know Clint would like to say more. giggles at poor Clint Some of us remember dear clint before he gained his current position. And thank our stars we can now snipe at him publically when the occasion presents itself :) Of course, we also know that if he ever does succumb to the occasional temptation to step down and be a regular jow again, we're going to need a really fast means of transportation out of town or a REALLY big bouquet of roses... And for those who don't remember, Clint's a hell of a good merchant himself. Who, if memory serves me right, has been hit by this sort of thing himself. So he knows. THere's a lot of things that can be said about renderosity, and even Clint, that might not be flattering. But to say they aren't doing enough when it is essential they maintain their position above it all to do business effectively, well, that's a disservice to them. Personally, and yeah, this is going to sound weird coming from me, I think that Clint does the best possible job he can given the constraints within which he has to work. And he does it damn well, even when confronted with snarky merchants, sometimes nasty customers, heckling crazy gals, snarling bears, and all manner of strange folk basically giving him the heave ho. And all without enough due credit beyond a paycheck. Sounds like he earns his living.

thou and I, my friend, can, in the most flunkey world, make, each of us, one non-flunkey, one hero, if we like: that will be two heroes to begin with. (Carlyle)

And for those who don't remember, Clint's a hell of a good merchant himself. The first product I ever bought at Renderosity (back in 2000) was one of Clint's (and that product is a major part of the design of one of my current websites, actually). I think that Clint does the best possible job he can given the constraints within which he has to work. I agree. snarky merchants, sometimes nasty customers, heckling crazy gals, snarling bears, and all manner of strange folk basically giving him the heave ho You forgot "sarcatic premenstrual women who haven't had enough caffeine". Not that I'll admit to knowing anyone like that (let alone to being someone like tht ;-). bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I made my post with nothing but good intentions because I sincerely believe that threads that rant and rave are detrimental and not very good for the community</> but, in this case, there was ALOT of very good information about hybrid clothing in the first thread. I would have loved more discussions along those lines. (Since my hybrids will work with a dynamic skirt/conforming top, but, try and add dynamic sleeves and my dresses explode.) you never know where you may find little bits of wisdom. why, in fact, even rubbernecking at a train-wreck, a bystander COULD learn abit about rescue techniques, or life saving methods, crash dynamic physics....gosh, all sorts of stuff!!!

Wow - Thanks for the kind words. Gabe - Thanks for the post buddy. :) Bonnie.. "The first product I ever bought at Renderosity (back in 2000) was one of Clint's (and that product is a major part of the design of one of my current websites, actually). " Wow! Which product is that? (smile) Just curious. I may not have the easiest job in the world but let me state that I truely love what I do and wouldnt trade it for anything. This community and the merchant base mean so much to me. Now - Back to your reqularly scheduled programming. :) Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

---

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

---

I've had the pleasure of speaking with ClintH over the phone in the past.

He's a nice guy. Friendly, helpful, and he does his job -- and he does it well.

IMHO, the good folks here at Rendo run a website which enjoys a level of success that most webmasters & webmistresses can only dream about. The people who run this place are not stupid. Nor are they a bunch of unfeeling, mean, nasty greed-heads that care about nothing but money.

But they ARE a team of people (read: people just like you & me -- with lives & families of their own) who run a business. And they run it well.

Those individuals who hold "expert" opinions to the contrary might want to take yet another look at the numbers. And then give Clint a call. Maybe he'll share with you his secrets about how to succeed at this business. If you ask him nicely.

No: Clint can't usually say what he's actually thinking. But most of us can probably do a pretty good job of imagining it.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"People are innocent until proven guilty " That's lycnhin' talk 'round these parts.. What? Oh chill a bit..

I don't always agree with everything that Rendo does. And I've stated so publicly on a number of occasions.

I haven't been "lynched" for doing it yet.

---

Innocent? Innocent of what?

Online, most of the names have been changed to protect the innocent.......and to protect the guilty, too.

BTW - does anyone happen to know umutov's real name......? Wait a minute: don't answer that.........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Realize that we, as an audience and community can say MANY things that the staff of Rendorosity CANNOT say for fear of legal reprisals. smile Freedom of speech is a wonderful thing.

Yup. Some retired sheriffs have their 6-guns parked on a peg by the door. Emeritus profs look lovingly at the walls of books. Former mods look at the well-chewed muzzle and rejoice in freedom of speech once again. ;^) Carolly Evil OverLady of the UnderDark

6-guns parked on a peg by the door And 'round these parts we have our 6-guns parked on jpegs by the door. (ducks and runs)

ouch! (I wish I'd thought of that!)

Wow! Which product is that? It's a horn pack, in .obj format! LOL! Back then there were no good unicorn horns anywhere, and yours were/are very nice (still use it, actually). The site is: http://bonni.net/unicorns/ (the big gold horn, that's yours!) bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

LOL Deecey, ya keep em on jpegs just in case there's a tiff ? .. Sorry ...

STORE:
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=KymJ
GALLERY:
www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=KymJ

LMAO!!!!!!!

And that .pnging sound you hear is the ricochet! :duck back behind the rock:

psd...gif it up...it's getting a lil too graphic now :)

STORE:
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=KymJ
GALLERY:
www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=KymJ

But, but... we're just targa-shooting!

Bonni - Thats right. :) Sweet - That was one of the first product I ever did. Thanks for the support. ;) Clint

Clint Hawkins
MarketPlace Manager/Copyright Agent

---

All my life I've been over the top ... I don't know what I'm doing ... All I know is I don't wana stop!
(Zakk Wylde (2007))

---

Oh okay...I get the pict..carry on :)

STORE:
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=KymJ
GALLERY:
www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=KymJ

OMG ... What did I start in this thread? LOL I hope we come to some sort of resolution soon. (hides again)

me too...I'm almost rendered speechless :)

STORE:
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=KymJ
GALLERY:
www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=KymJ

Looks like you .bum's made a good effort to .bmp off the original topic.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

LMAO!!! Stop it! It's too tempting ... really! LOLOL

BTW ... no disrespect intended to any of those who posted their concerns in this thread. I think we were trying to lighten up the mood a bit.

Quite frankly I think it is becoming all too transparent but it should please some that the ambience of this thread is just a reflection of how silly we can be LOL. Kym

STORE:
http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=KymJ
GALLERY:
www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=KymJ

Well..we could have chosen another Path, or gone through different Channels, but this way keeps us in Line.It helps to Diffuse the situation,so I see no Point in changing now. 8 )~

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

You see,it really DOS bring us together.Next thing you know,we'll be planning a Renderosity picnic.I'll bring corn on the .COB and Sprite if nobody else wants to bring .DEM.

(Okay..that was reaching...lmao)

Message edited on: 02/02/2006 12:40

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

ROTFL! You peeps are crazy..

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Tom, what is your point? I'm trying to render a conclusion, but your perspective is beyond my depth of view.

"but your perspective is beyond my depth of view"

That's "Normal"

Most folks, be they "global"or "local" "Seam" to "transform" into "variable groups" when it .com to these topics.

The "Scale" and magnitude of such subjects,can leave one feeling that they don't quite know where they fall in the "hierarchy".
In "Light"of everything "Compiled" here,I for one,can "C" the "output" of this discussion as a "positive" one

BTW,to those taking "Planes"to the picnic,I have "Maps" in case you find yourselves "Displaced" They are also written in different languages for those who need "Translation".

Don't forget to bring stuff to combat "worms"and "bugs".

In fact..the last picnic (I think it was the "Third Party") someone saw a "Python" So be careful. 8 )

Message edited on: 02/02/2006 21:01

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

... when it .com to these topics. Allright man, I'm giving you formal notice that this comment is unacceptable. And it's not just because it's better than anything I can come up with on such short...ummm... vertex.... I mean, notice. I'm filing a COMPLAINT! Harumph.

Arrrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! This is as much fun as a roomful of cats and a single catnip mouse leaving leafy crumbs all over everybody and everything. :)= And when the mods come back, we'll all be sitting here grooming our paws with quiet attention and the best possible manners. Carolly

Attached Link: The Complaint Thread

OT: Please direct all complaints to "The Complaint Thread" 8 )

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Attached Link: Seriously Grave Copyright Infringement Charge - Lynching Request

Uh.......dude? You might wanna get yer butt over to a different thread.

Seems someone's called yer number up. :-P

I dare you, while there is still time, to have a magnificent obsession. --William Danforth

im not going to dignify your bullshit beyond this - you are deliberately trying to bait me and honestly, you are not worth any more of my time.

noone tests my new products. ever. i test my own products - that is how it always has been and how it will remain.

"Amazing coincidence considering Blackhearted states above that he hardly ever trawls the forums."
i also stated that i had spent pretty much every waking hour since friday night at 2am sitting in front of my comp doing comparison renders, communicating with the copyright agents, and yes - checking the forums to see when umutov would rear his head. that i noticed a post with umutov in the title at the top of the poser forum an hour after it was posted isnt much of a feat - i should have noticed it sooner. if i hadnt have seen that post by traveler id have posted an announcement myself the same day.

judging by your artist page and previous forum posts i assume youre into conspiracy theories. you probably think bush personally set secondary charges in the WTC, then had a threesome with saddam hussein and osama bin laden.

i dont need publicity, and i dont want it. i just want to do my work in peace and let my products sell themselves. this is why it took me 4 months to discover a blatant infringement that i could spot from the product thumbnail. if there is anything i want made public, its that there is a thief who had 8 submissions and counting across his various stores that were infringements of my work, daz's and other merchants -- and im not going to sit by and let it be swept under the rug.

it's now outta control. 'nuff said.

Mark_UK, Not that I don't think you are trying to interject your opinion just to make yourself sound like you actually KNOW something about the situation, which you obviously don't, anymore than any of us, but if Blackhearted DID get any publicity and sold a few more items after this crap where his work was blatantly stolen, I think it just makes up a little for that. So if he gets more items sold and gets some more attention for his high quality work, bully for him. He deserves it after what was done. Baiting him doesn't help. Lying or making something up because you want to get a rise out of him doesn't do anything but perhaps make a wee small ego who only likes to cause crap get its jollies. Try Viagra, instead. Wise men speak because they have something to say; Fools because they have to say something. -Plato Blackhearted, don't let this guy get to you. He is probably Umatov or a third cousin trying to start crap. Ignore the insect, it will go away.

Khai - geez, you think? but im not going to sit here and take his accusations lightly - he crossed the TOS line long ago, as well as the threshhold from merely a troll to someone who is personally attacking me with libelious remarks. ..and hes accomplishing what he set out to do. i did a search in the community forum and half the threads mark_uk has ever participated in have been locked. his anti-merchant/marketplace/admin sentiments are as clear as his behavioral pattern as he chimes in to every thread with the most inflammatory remarks he can conjure. ironic that he accuses others of trying to gain publicity when his own remarks and entire presence in this thread and forum revolve around that very purpose.

"So if he gets more items sold and gets some more attention for his high quality work, bully for him. He deserves it after what was done." sales have been very slow since the MP changeover. surely part of that is due to the fact that i havent released anything in awhile, but i still noticed a significant dropoff in sales. hopefully when customers get used to the new store and regain their confidence in it sales will pick up. till then, if this has increased my sales in any way it cant have been more than by 1-2 items a day since i havent been selling much more the past 2 weeks. and naturally i have to engineer these things every once in awhile because otherwise noone would buy my products. in reality there is no umutov - he is just a clone account of mine that i created so that i could rip off my own products and then report him (myself) and stir up this big controversy so i could sell an extra product a day. "Blackhearted, don't let this guy get to you. He is probably Umatov or a third cousin trying to start crap. Ignore the insect, it will go away." its not so much him getting to me as the admins tolerance of his personal attacks on me. you can always tell the trolls because no matter what direction a thread is taking (this one had turned to just joking around with puns), they always chime in with some inflammatory remark to try and get the arguments going again. unfortunately this time i took the bait.

Mark_uk Just to make it clear why I'm responding now, I do read the boards several times per day, and always check replies. Just in case you think ANYONE may have alerted me. First, I don't test Blackhearded's items for him sorry. I do buy his merchandise, along with that of dozens of other merchants, and think he, and they, are very talented. Second, I, as stated in that message was interesteinf in purchasing some merchandise that day,among them one of Umutov's. I made a purchse of other items when i couldn't find his, then sent an IM to Umutov asking the status of his store. Maybe you can check on these things since you seem privy to so much information. Third, I have had an email converstaion with Blackhearted, in which we discussed some of the work I've done in hybrid clothing in relation to a product was working on. But that was some time ago when I posted some pictures of some jeans I was concidering selling for his GND figure. I have since put that project on the back burner, haveing found several flaws in the mesh and little enthusiasim for them. I have no idea if that conversation helped Blackhearted, I hope it did. Fourth, I took your first post as a personnel attack and was convinced it wasn't. This time I have no doubt. I WILL be contacting a mod to lock this thread and I'll thank you to leave my name out of future message. Any further messages WILL be concidered a personal attack and reported to the forum moderators as such. mike

It's quite unfortunate that the injured party is the one who is accused of being wrong. It often happens in the judicial system, and we see it happen here on occasion as well. It's too bad that there isn't a way that we can tell instantly if a product is all original. It has been quite some time since I have put a product in the store here, but I am preparing several as we speak ... so I'm not sure if there is an agreement that you have to acknowledge first that the product does not infringe on anyone's copyright. If there is such an agreement in place, and Umutov acknowledged that the work was all his own when he submitted it, then he has no right to be angry because he got caught. If you can't do business honestly, then you have to take the heat when the flames get high. Blackhearted did nothing wrong here ... the only "fault" that is his is that he is too talented. 8-)

Ok enough is enough this thread is getting nasty. I am locking it down. SndCastie

Sandy
An imagination can create wonderful things

SndCastie's Little Haven