In a previous thread, the subject of strand based hair surfaced. As an animator (like most of you), I'm always looking for ways to shorten the rendertime of frames, while still maintaining the highest quality possible. So with that in mind, strand-based hair never appealed to me, especially if I could get the look I want from modelled hair, without sacrificing realism. However, there are many instances were model hair is simply not going to get the movement you may want or need, especially if your goal is realism. So, strand hair is the other solution.

As a test of production rendering for animation using strand-based hair, I've put together several stills using "Hair and Fur" in 3dsmax 7.5. Here's some information on these renders:

Hair: Hair and Fur module in 3dsmax 7.5, buffer mode
Scene: 1 figure (13,708 polygons), 35,000 polygons total, 9000 hair strands
Lighting: 3 standard spotlights; 2 with depth shadows (bias:0.1, size: 1024, sample range: 10), and one keylight with area shadows.
Renderer: MentalRay; 1/4 pixel samples, Gauss filter
Render Size: 720x480
System: Single 2 gig Pentium 4, 1 gig RAM

With each new hair style, the only change is in the materials and styling. The strand count is the same in each instance, although thickness may have been altered slightly. Render times are located on each image:

Medium-length Blonde
Medium-length Brunette/Wet Style or Gel Look
Frizzy/Afro Style
Long Blonde Hair

Clearly, judging by these render times, strand-based hair is definitely do-able for animation purposes on a single machine, and even moreso over a network. However, there are many limitations too, such as: you MUST use spotlights, or else the shadows don't show up. Omni lights are out, unless for fill lighting. If you want GI, you need to either render the hair with their own lights as a seperate render pass, or else suffer the result of very high rendertime from using dome lights (lots of lights on a hemisphere). The hair won't render shadows if you use true GI, unless you turn it to geometry, which would make it 10x slower. If you have a huge network of 90 machines, then go for it. ;-)

If anyone would like to share the results of their own strand-based hair tests using other platforms (like Poser, Lightwave, or Maya), I'd love to see them. Please post rendertime and detailed information about the renders so we can get an idea how viable they are for "amateur" animation on those platforms. This is basically about rendertimes vs. quality.

Message edited on: 02/04/2006 18:29

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

BTW, if anyone decides to run their own tests with different applications/platforms, try to use the same render size as my examples (720x480), with 3 point lighting. Obviously, this isn't a benchmark test, since no one will be using the same geometry, etc., but it might be interesting to see the level of quality we could get for strand hair on different platforms using simple 3 point lighting, and the time it took to get it.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Ok, I'll try this in the morning with Carrara and Poser, but I already know there's no way I'll match those render times and still have that kind of shadow quality. Maybe if I use only Poser's engine, but certainly not if I import it to Carrara. Carrara just doesn't handle Poser's native dynamic hair well.

Your hair examples look good from what I can tell. I'd be interested to see a short animation done where the hair is moving around. I like the second one with the gel look because I've never been able to get that kind of look from strand hair in Poser, but that's not to say it can't be done. The rendertime also seems quick, and considering the strand count, the shadowing is excellent. Do you notice any problems with artifacts when the hair moves around?

Have you seen the new hair engine that's out for Cinema4D? Supposedly, it sets new standards for speed and quality. Some of the teaser footage I've seen looks outstanding! If there's anyone in here who uses C4D with the the new hair plugin, I'd like to see some renders.

Message edited on: 02/04/2006 22:08

From Maya's render log file: --------- Generating shadow map for spotLightShape1, with clipping values: 0.01 16.124 Rendering current frame. Frame triangle count: 138334 ==================================== Resource Usage At End Of Frame ==================================== 7980 Page faults 167.355 Mb Peak total size(Estimated) 53.019 Mb Peak arena size ==================================== 168.707 Mb Current 15.737 Mb Arrays 1.875 Mb Data Blocks 1.750 Mb NURBS AG 9.375 Mb MEL 0.874 Mb Transforms 0.125 Mb Keys 14.592 Mb Render Cache 0.007 Mb Render Geometry Arena ==================================== Postprocessing rendering result. Time For Tessellation (hh

ss): 00:00:00 Time For Shadow Map (hh

ss): 00:00:08 Time For Post Process (hh

ss): 00:02:19 Time For Frame Render (hh

ss): 00:02:34 ------------- Using: 258 follicles Each follicle emitting 25 hair strands and 5 multistreaks (hair instances). Render engine Maya software + PaintEffects Triangle filter 2.2x2.2 samples: min 2 max 8 shadow depth map file rez 512 result: see pic

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

oh, I forgot: That hair rendering was done using 26 light sources (only one casting shadows) at 640x480 (ignore skin and background, those were different passes).

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

Nemirc, nice work! 2:34 @ 640x480 is definitely reasonable, considering the quality achieved. I've always heard great things about Maya's hair system. What were your system specs like? IE., what kind of machine did you render from?

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

System specs: AMD AthlonXP 2700+ / 1Gb RAM (don't remember it's speed) / Seagate Barracuda 7000rpm

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

Ok, you guys got me beat for sure. I couldn't get Poser to render the dynamic hair in a reasonable amount of time, regardless if it was casting shadows or not. This first render (above) was my first attempt. Rendered at 720x480, 3 lights, all of them casting depth mapped shadows. Took Poser6 5 minutes just to calculate the scene shadows and set up the render, then took about a minute or two to render after that. So this render took a total of about 6 minutes, and I don't think the hair looks that realistic.

This one is my second attempt at bringing down those render times. This one uses 3 lights as well, but only 2 are casting shadows, and the hair is NOT casting any shadows at all. I upped the shadow map size, and reduced the bias, as Operaguy has instructed. It works for getting the rendertime down. This render only took about 2 minutes total on my machine, at the size of 720x480. The only thing is now I lost even more realism, and the hair looks less convincing that the previous render.

I will be getting Poser 6 not-so-soon so I will be testing poser hair. Maybe I will have some luck :p

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

Posers firefly in about 3 minutes

Poser's Poser4 render in about 1.5 minutes

Carrara 5 with transposer. Full raytracing 1.58 minutes

"This one is my second attempt at bringing down those render times." The hair doesn't look bad there, Jimbo. If you added some good skin textures to the girl, and some other textures, it would be do-able in that time. What are your system specs? "Carrara 5 with transposer. Full raytracing 1.58 minutes" I like this one better than the Poser versions, dueyftw, and the rendertime is very good it seems. Can you post what kind of system you have used for these?

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

I did not adjust anything. The 2 major problems with using Poser is it has no rendering farm. The best workaround is to buy batch render and render overnight. The other problem is that doing any animation beyond figures is a study in aggravation. Once you work with any other 3d program, you keep asking, "Why can't I do that in Poser?" The one place that it currently out does any other program is content. I can get more stuff for Poser that any other 3D program. Poser 6 did not impress me. I tried the demo and It has a nicer layout than Poser 5, but to buy an upgrade for a new layout and toon render? I don't think so. Dale

All done on an older Alienware,pentum 4cpu 2.4 ghz, 2gig of ram. Currently the only down side to Carrara is it rendering farm uses tiles and not full frames. I have Vue and it sends the full frame to each node. What happens is if you have one fast machine and the frame is slower, P3 866 Mhz. then the source computer finishes before the farm does anything because by the time it receives the frame information and renders anything the source has moved on to the next frame. Dale

I have a nice graph editor and the trax editor in Maya... why can't they do that in poser... and that complain IS real :p

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

Hi guys, just poking in, I am distracted by another project, but I'll contribute to this thread latter this coming week, plus try to interact with things already posted. ::::: Opera :::::

472 folicles, 17 hairs per folicle, no multistreaks, hair segments to 3, 26 light sources (geometry using a useBackground material for alpha channel). Rendertime: 31 seconds :p

Message edited on: 02/06/2006 00:55

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

An attempt at some realistic hair translucency with Hair and Fur module in 3dsmax 7.5. Original Render Size: 720x480 Rendertime: 2 minutes, 12 seconds CPU: 2 gig P4 / 2 gig ram 3 standard spotlights with shadow maps (1024 size) MentalRay renderer The head is a model I was sculpting a while ago, but never finished. ;-P

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

That's coool! Excellent highlight realism and the general way the groups fall together. I am rendering an animation for this thread now, but kinda high on the renderbudget, over 400 seconds per frame. It'll be done in about 8 hours, will post. ::::: Opera :::::

COOL! O_O I am still having trouble getting the "backlighting effect" correctly.

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

Broken down on 3 layers: hair shadows, hair base and hair translucence. Each takes no more than 40something seconds.

472 folicles, 20 hairs per folicle, no multistreaks, hair segments to 3 (for curvature), 26 light sources. Rendered at 1024x768 using triangle antialias settings. BTW hairdo is based on that of an anime girl named Peorth: http://hk.geocities.com/blue_chris200x/Peorth.8.jpg

Message edited on: 02/06/2006 11:34

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

Poser6 Test Animation: Strand Hair
4.6 MB Quicktime

Frame size 720x480
Frame Rate: 30fps,
Frames: 120

Render settings:
Raytrace off
Min Shading rate 1
pixel samples 3
Max texture size 1024
Bucket 64

Lights (see diagram)

Rendertime: 292 seconds per frame, 4min, 52 seconds
Hair Simulation, all frames, all groups, total: 31 seconds (collision off)

Model: EJ with default texture

Hair model: Kate hair, provided with Poser
Hair stats:
4 Groups: 4226, 2880, 2113, 3456 strands
Total: 12,675 strands
Settings: these are the default Kate Hair
settings, with the exception of "Position Force"
which I changed from the default 0.00 to 0.02
see notes below.

My goal here was just to put Kate Hair in motion, so please forgive the jerky, unpolished animation.

Funny, but the default settings for Kate Hair cause the hair to fall straight down when draping, and to fly around wispy during movement. This is "sexy", but without collision, the hair goes thru the head/face, and the strands end up all a-jumble and tangle and covering the face most of the time. So, for this test, all I did was jack up the setting "Position Force" to .02 which I have discovered by experiment lets the hair move, vibrate and sway a little, but general returns it to the original shape.

I did a test simulation with collision on for all four hair groups colliding with the head. It took 41 minutes. But I didn't render it; there is a problem with hair and collision, probably caused because I have not put enough time into the settings. You get "atomic vibration." This means, the anti-collision is so strong, that even if the head makes the slightest movement, or maybe NO movement for a few frames, the hair still bounces around, trying to "avoid." See and example of that here: Quicktime, 4MB. Can anyone help with this problem? I'd except the long sim time associated with collision prevention if the results would be great, but so far they are not, for me.

My lighting approach was to see what could be done by letting the hair cast shadows. And contrary to my former belief that hair shouldn't cast shadows because it will ruin the rendertime, I am getting spoiled, and hair not casting shadows, in a closeup, looks too unreal to me. There is a price to be paid, for sure, but for this test I wanted to see the results.

As a tradeoff, I kept the render settings, lighting settings at what I'd call medium rather than the other extremes of "Intense" or "Quick&Dirty". Also, the fill light has shadows turned off.

I didn't spend a lot of time trying to make the lighting great, but the idea is that this test has sufficient settings to perhaps deliver realism in skin, shadows and strand resolution, but still retain a modestly realistic render time. Another render I did with settings pushed higher, and a frame rendertime of about 7.5 minutes each, is here: 5.6 MB Quicktime. Longer version: 24.4 MB, Quicktime.

Even this animation could be pushed higher in realism, but the framerate would start to skyrocket.

[Note: I am actually working on a series of extreme renders, with frames over 1000 seconds per frame, on closeup with very powerful shadows and tight resolution of strands. Will report those results here, as well.]

::::: Opera :::::
Message edited on: 02/06/2006 20:07

Message edited on: 02/06/2006 20:08

i never sacrificed detail for realism, my average pics take hours to render now i'm starting to move to animation, ouch >.< well not start, i've animated plenty before, just not realism only did with the basic 3d look :P i'm going to cry very soon you gave up on carrara, i still have hopes >.< lol even if i have to merge 2 renders!

" Broken down on 3 layers: hair shadows, hair base and hair translucence." Nemirc, very good! I like the soft look to the hair, and the slight hint of translucency. I think the rendertime here is quite acceptable, considering the quality, and length of the hair, and especially the size you rendered at. I'd like to see a more close-up render of the hair. "Poser6 Test Animation: Strand Hair" Opera, real nice job with the P6 hair! The hair looks realistic, and the shadowing is good. The movement in the animation is good also... not too much wildness to the strands, and just the right amount of flow to it (like it had been hairsprayed in place, as you would imagine it). How do you feel about the rendertime? I think it's slightly extensive, but you're getting impressive quality there. As for the collisions, have you tried running them on a low-res prop that is scaled the same size as the head? The less polys they need to collide with, the faster it will be. You could build a low-poly mock-up that roughly fits the shape of EJ's head, and use that to collide the hair against, then use the solution to render on top of the actual model. PS: This is yet another problem of working with only the dense, hi-res mesh of Poser figures. In Max, for example, I have the luxury of working with the low-poly base mesh for running the simulation quickly, then just subdivide that mesh for the high-res render. You might be able to fake that in Poser though.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

export the figure as obj, open a modelling program, and import just remodel a bit, keep head only, and lower the poly amount alot export, import back to poser, parent new head to the old collide only on the new head, it copies the motions, works fast genesis hair in marketplace is same thing, the "proxy" is already made not sure if one for ej though

Yep, that's exactly what to do, anxcon. Decimate the mesh if possible with a modelling app, down to a reasonable poly count. By reasonable, I mean something at least half (or less) what it currently is now.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Why don't you simply use a sphere?

nemirc
Renderosity Magazine Staff Writer
https://renderositymagazine.com/users/nemirc
https://about.me/aris3d/

"Why don't you simply use a sphere?" A sphere could work too, if you resize it in approximation with the head of the model. Some magnets might come in handy for that too. The only problem would be that if it's not sufficiently close to the head's shape, collisions will not look accurate when you do the final render, especially if you need to pull off some close-up shots.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

hey guys, those are good suggestions for reducing the sym time. I have a few trickes like that in the bag and can add to your suggestions. But beyond the sym time........it's the dancing hair effect. Help me with that if you can. When you render the animation with the sym in place, which you created with collision on, You can't get the hair to lay still. Even if you halt ALL subtle movements, you know, those little head sways that add realism?.....the hair just won't settle down, strands keep moving as if avoiding collision. Any of you ever take strand hair with collision dynamics into a full render that has a stop in it? Does the hair fully stop for you? ::::: Opera :::::

anxcon, i did not fully give up on Carrara, nor have I not decided to move into Messiah or 3DSMax, both of which I am very serious about. I just gave Carrara a quick look-see to check if I could hit a triple down into the corner on the first pitch. No such luck. I still have room in Poser to find productivity, such as staying in realism but getting my times down with other tricks. Maxx: "How do you feel about the rendertime? I think it's slightly extensive, but you're getting impressive quality there." Well, here i/we are, on the cusp. At some point you have to look at the tradeoff-line between realism and rendertime. There is still room to bring down render time with good realism. I am persisting. My issue is, I love closeups, human subtle movements, strand hair that moves, skin realism and fantastic shadows. These are NOT conducive to low render times. Honestly, sometimes I just want to "go toon" or "go sketch" and end it all! [but not really] ::::: Opera :::::

do you guys know about zooming in on the shadowcams, which then enables you to set the map size lower and get the same resolution, thereby reducing render time? If I didn't have that trick, the rendertime in my clip above would be about 20% longer. ::::: Opera :::::

"At some point you have to look at the tradeoff-line between realism and rendertime."

Agreed, but I look at it in the opposite way. If a project is worth it, I'd be willing to swallow larger rendertime to achieve the realism I want. For me, 5 min. per frame at DVD resolutions is acceptable, but I've rarely had to deal that kind of time anyway, even for highly realistic results. Poser, however, is a different animal.

"When you render the animation with the sym in place, which you created with collision on, You can't get the hair to lay still. Even if you halt ALL subtle movements, you know, those little head sways that add realism?.....the hair just won't settle down, strands keep moving as if avoiding collision. Any of you ever take strand hair with collision dynamics into a full render that has a stop in it? Does the hair fully stop for you?"

Yes, it does, if I use enough dampening on the dynamics. Dampening, at least in 3dsmax, keeps the hair from moving until a certain velocity is reached. I don't know if it's the same with Poser's dynamic hair, but that's what it does with Hair and Fur in Max 7.5. This keeps the hair from getting "nervous", and prevents popping/jittering with every little movement that causes collision. If you look at real hair, or study your own hair, it doesn't move a great deal at all until you are really in motion. Subtle movements may make some longer hair move about slightly, but that's all. Even light, thin hair takes a bit of velocity and/or gravity to cause it movement.

One solution for you, Opera, might be to either experiment with dampening parameters in Poser's hair room (I don't recall if it has dampening or not), or to NOT run a simulation for scenes that have only slight movement, and instead keyframe animate the strands for those shots if need be. I think I recall the ability to keyframe animate dynamic hair by moving the strands manually.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 00:46

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Definitely play with damping values for the dynamics, Operaguy. Poser has a few options for that, and it's the same principle as dynamic cloth. Without the damping forces, the hair appears too jumpy and restless, just like with dynamic cloth. Higher values should cause the dynamic strands to come to a rested state faster. Also, you'll want to experiment with bend resistance, root stiffness, and position force to keep the shape of the hair.

All these examples so far are looking good. I think the 3dsmax renders look the most realistic so far, but the Maya ones seem to have the fastest rendertime.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 02:09

okay, that's good information -- it's not a fatal defect in the hair engine, it's that I have not put in my dues with the damping settings (and there ARE damping settings, you can see them in my post above.) Will do so. Thanks for the feedback. Maxxmodels: "but I've rarely had to deal that kind of time anyway, even for highly realistic results" In otherwords, you can get this level of realism, on the hair, the shadows, the skin, etc., in well under 5 minutes? Well naturally, that renews my 3dsMax envy and horse-switching fever! Greg (or anyone), can you post an animation? Say, 120 frames, camera about the same distance from the face as mine, at 720x480, and provide the stats? Try to emulate the realism in shadows, skin and hair on the level of mine. Hair about the same length and style. That would provide me with a reality check. ::::: Opera :::::

So now I'll post MY hint for speeding up sym time, not that there is a thing wrong with the proxy ideas posted above. I just write down my settings for hair count, then reduce the density by 75% and run the sym. I then put the density back. I don't know if this idea is flawed....the results look fine, and it sure speeds up the sym. Also, I make the groups not being calculated invisible. That helps too. ::::: Opera :::::

"In otherwords, you can get this level of realism, on the hair, the shadows, the skin, etc., in well under 5 minutes?"

Yes, definitely. If you look at the links in my original post, you'll see the rendertimes on the images I linked to. Those images are the original render size. I think the realism is there, and most are done in under 3 minutes. The long blonde hair was the only one that took over 3 min. Even the realistic translucency example was done in under 3 minutes, and that one is a close-up. I'm using 3-point lighting for all examples, shadows on all lights. I think the main difference, Opera, is that Max and Maya can render shadow maps much faster than Poser. In fact, in most cases, they can render even raytraced shadows in the time Poser takes to render depth shadows.

It all depends, of course, on the complexity of the scene too. I think Nemirc's Maya examples might have me beat in terms of rendertime if you consider the length of the hair he's working with, and the number of strands/follicles.

"can you post an animation? Say, 120 frames, camera about the same distance from the face as mine, at 720x480, and provide the stats? Try to emulate the realism in shadows, skin and hair on the level of mine. Hair about the same length and style. That would provide me with a reality check."

I'll see what I can whip up later today or tonight.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 03:28

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

i don't see any links in your post #1 here. I've read it over three times now, and no links. I guess that's why I'm asking for a comp from you, because I don't have your test frames, and therefore your times. ::::: Opera :::::

***" i don't see any links in your post #1 here. I've read it over three times now, and no links. I guess that's why I'm asking for a comp from you, because I don't have your test frames, and therefore your times."***

Hmmm. I posted them as links within the message, so it's strange you can't see them. Wonder if anyone else is having that trouble?

Anyhow, hopefully you can see the image attached to this message.

This is the hair I'll try to animate for you later today or tonight. This still render took exactly 4 minutes to complete at the size shown (720x480). I'm using 3 lights, and one of them has raytraced shadows. So even with raytracing, I'm still getting acceptable time. I think the skin realism and hair style are reasonably close to what you have shown in your example.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Greg, you don't have to render an animation on my account, now. I can see that image. It's a comp, if not better. I hope I am not nuts, but I can't see/find any links in post#1. Got your IM with the links, however. So, assuming I could fiddle with the Poser animation I posted in #24 above and bring the quality of the realism up to your image/s, the comparison would be 4 minutes against 5 minutes. That's not as bad as I thought. However, I am not confident I can match your quality at 5 minutes. The outrageous stills (and soon an animation) I am getting in Poser, which IMHO DO equal Max/Maya realism, are in the range of 1800 seconds per frame. More to come. ::::: Opera :::::

Tanking a deep breath, I see your times are WAY lower than 4 min for the other images, but that when you move in closer so the hair fills more of the frame (post 40), you are up to 4 min. You are still not as close in as my composition, however. That's a reality for all of us. Strand hair grief multiplies geometrically with distance from the camera as you push in! ::::: Opera :::::

"That's a reality for all of us. Strand hair grief multiplies geometrically with distance from the camera as you push in!"

That's definitely true, although if I hadn't used raytraced shadows on the one light for added detail, it would have been less than 3 min for the image in post #40. The length of the hair also plays a role it seems. The longer the strands, the more shadows it needs to calculate, resulting in longer render time. Length can be almost as computationally intensive as density, at least in 3dsmax. So the shorter the hair, and farther away from the camera it is, the faster it will render.

I'd be interested in seeing nemirc render a close-up using Maya's hair system to see if the same holds true for it. I'm thinking it would. Message edited on: 02/07/2006 07:13

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Yeah nemirc, move in close with that girl and fill the frame. Let's see what Maya can do!

Ok. I must be doing something VERY wrong here, because I can't get anywhere near the level of realism being done by some of you in under 5 minutes. I'm using Poser 6, but even using Carrara, it still takes well over 5 minutes to get it looking good at that frame size. The render in post 40 looks absolutely amazing. I think it would be very hard to beat that kind of realism in under 5 minutes. The hair style in that post reminds me of Koz Messy, which is a prop hair by Kozaburo for Poser. Operaguy, I must applaud you. Your efforts have been the best I've seen done in Poser in that amount of time, but the shadows seem much richer and more realistic in the 3dsmax and Maya renders posted so far. I would also like to see a closeup of the maya hair. Great job by everyone so far! Great threaad.

Thanks Jimbo, but you ain't seen my best work yet. Watch this space in 12-24 hours for a stunning Poser6 animation. Jimbo, what hardware are you on, please supply specs. And to all Poser people....I repeat....do you know about zooming in on the shadowcams? It gets you 20-35%. ::: og :::

"Ok. I must be doing something VERY wrong here, because I can't get anywhere near the level of realism being done by some of you in under 5 minutes." Post your render settings for Poser 6. Maybe Opera can find something in there that you're doing differently than him.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

I'm using an Intel Pentium 4 845E chipset 1.7GHz, 512mb RAM.

I'm at work now, but I'll try to post some screenshots of my render settings when I get home.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 08:58

.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

Just for kicks and giggles, I decided to re-render the same scene/hair that's in post #40, this time using the FinalRender engine, rather than MentalRay, with comparable settings. The rendertime and other info is stamped on the image above. I actually saved 30 seconds on that frame just by using FR over Mentalray, without any apparent loss in quality there. Hmmmm.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

excellent. fantastic illumination. The AO-type effect under her straps is terrif. Highlights on lips terrif. backlight terrif.

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"You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be misquoted and then used against you."

First rule of animation WIP: Never promise
when an animation will be complete!

I had some hardware issues today and
found a few things I didn't like about the output,
so I restarted my realism animation over.

I'll post it when it is baked!

It's just a four-second face study, close in.
I got the render time down to 554 seconds/frame.
That's 10 min per frame, but in this close, in Poser?
Not bad.

Here are two stills:

::::: Opera :::::

"That's 10 min per frame, but in this close, in Poser? Not bad." That's not bad at all, Opera. Think about it: Even if it's 10 min per frame for extreme close-ups, you're not going to be rendering every shot in extreme close-up, so the entire movie won't cost that amount on average. Some shots are always going to be more expensive than others, but you can make up for it in other ways. I think the quality there looks fine, and worth 10 min per frame, as long as it isn't a prolonged, lengthy sequence you need at that rendertime.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

.

Here is a close-in animation.
It's just 120 frames, 4 seconds.
It demonstrates realism in close
with strand hair.

Hair model: Kate Hair
Render settings:
Raytrace on, 2 bounces
Min Shading Rate 0.00
Pixel samples: 5
Bucket: 32
3 spotlights on face, two casting Depth Map shadows
Map: 256, bias .01, blur 6
Hardware: AMD 3500+; 4GIG RAM; Dual Raptors; XPPro; NVIDIA GeForce5600 256MB
Average rendertime per frame: 525 seconds = 8 min 45 seconds

Quicktime, 1.5 MB

Known problems:

flicker in the fine shadows cast by whispy hair.
inadvertent animation of items reflected in eyes.
head transit slightly too fast, and ease out not deep enough, more overshoot needed

Other than that......
Shheeesh, a lot can go wrong in animation.
But I am not upset, this was just a practice animation.

I was so happy to get the render time down to 525
seconds, on average, by zooming in on
the shadowcams, that I probably re-entered the
flicker zone. The maps were only 256, although
bias was very low (.01).

::::: Opera :::::

Looking good, Opera! It looks like you're getting much more control over the hair movement. Hmmmm... I wonder if there's anything else that can be done in Poser to cure shadowmap flicker without increasing rendertime? In 3dsmax, we have a setting called, "Absolute Map Bias". When enabled, the bias for the shadow map is NOT normalized, but is instead based on a fixed scale expressed in Max units. The value doesn't change during animation. So if scene extents change, like with moving objects, the internal normalization of the shadow maps carry over from frame to frame, preventing flicker and other problems. I wonder if something like that can be done in Poser, perhaps via Python? Probably just a pipe dream. :-(

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

well, that routine you just described probably contributes to faster renders in Max, also. On the hair movement, I am now of the "use a full can of hair spray, but then back it off a little until the hair just moves enough to trigger realism" school. I started with my discovered setting of .02 for 'position force' but then eased it off to .015. Flicker. Not my friend flicer. I'm rendering the section near the end where the flicker is bad on the cheek, with somewhat kicked-up settings. Will report back tomorrow. :: og ::

""use a full can of hair spray, but then back it off a little until the hair just moves enough to trigger realism" school." LMAO! I think I've been to that school. Probably the same class. ;-) "I'm rendering the section near the end where the flicker is bad on the cheek, with somewhat kicked-up settings. Will report back tomorrow." Definitely want to see the results. What will you do if you can't get it resolved?

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

My overnight try actually made it worse, I will do a succession of trial and error later today. I have not attempted to scale up, yet. "What will you do if you can't get it resolved?" Are you available to fly to Pasadena and spend a week getting me up the hill on Max? ::::: Opera :::::

"do you guys know about zooming in on the shadowcams, which then enables you to set the map size lower and get the same resolution, thereby reducing render time? If I didn't have that trick, the rendertime in my clip above would be about 20% longer." No. Is this a P6 thing or is it adaptable to earlier versions? This is the first I've heard of it so I'm completely clueless about what it is or how it works.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2572011 http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2572420 http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=2476115 http://www.renderosity.com/messages.ez?Form.ShowMessage=1087694 Miss Nancy and Yansaen have helped me understand that you can control the way a light casts its shadows. Mostly, you can zoom in on the subject, and therefore the render engine does a better job on the actual target, thus reducing the map size necessary to get equivelent resolution. On the work I've posted in this thread, I've been able to reduce the map size on lights down from 2048 or 1024 to as low as 256, thus knocking down render time. However, this has caused flicker to reemerge. I am working on that issue now. ::::: Opera :::::

opera, i see still no cure to the excited hair (see her left neck) :(

Thanks. That's quite intriguing.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

"opera, i see still no cure to the excited hair (see her left neck)" Hmmm. I thought that was the shadow flicker causing it to look restless, but you may be right. The monitor I'm viewing with is a bit dark, so it's hard to see details in the shadow areas of that scene. Opera, might wanna check that hair group, and perhaps play a bit more with the dampening settings for it. As for shadow flicker, I'd be willing to bet there's a mathematical cure to it somewhere, using shadow map size. It might have something to do with the distance of the light from the object, mulitplied by whatever, gives you the correct map size to use for the scene. I don't know.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Attached Link: http://www.this-wonderful-life.com/photo-shoot.htm

Some of the best dynamic hair I've ever seen was done by the guy at the link above. Check out the videos of the girl at the bottom of that page (divx required). Notice how the hair moves so perfectly subtle and realistic. It's not jumpy or noisy. I've never been able to get it to do this with Poser dynamic hair. I wish I knew settings that could make it move like that, although Operaguy is doing a much better job that I have ever been able to do anyway. Maxxx, that animation in the link above was done in 3dsmax also. Can you tell if he's using the same hair plugin you are, or is it something else?

Attached Link: http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/229960

***"Maxxx, that animation in the link above was done in 3dsmax also. Can you tell if he's using the same hair plugin you are, or is it something else?"*** That's Liam Kemp's "This Wonderful Life". It's a short movie he did in 3dsmax that won some awards, etc. Very well done. The HDRI render you refer to was done with the Vray rendering engine for Max I believe. As for the hair, I recall reading an article about this, in which he says he used a plugin called, Shag:Hair to create the strand-based hair. Shag:Hair is now known as HairFX, and is a different solution than what I've been using in my tests. I don't have that plugin. The one I'm using is "Hair and Fur", and it comes standard with 3dsmax version 7.5 and higher. I don't really know what the differences are, but from what I hear, HairFX is better. It also costs around $400 at Turbosquid. :-P

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

thanks for pointing out that it might not be flicker, but simply shadow of restless hair. I will look into it. I have not yet fiddled with the dampers, because collision is off here. The residual tiny hair movements might be normal....her head is moving a little. ::::: Opera :::::

on that video...the one with the punk red hair.... IMO it's not hair animation, nor hair model, that convinces. It's the fact that the ambient light in the room, plus the light on her skin, plus the light on the hair, ALL AGREE. Add to that terrific animation of the eye, including the rim of the eye. I'd LOVE to see the graph on that blink. And of course, a grand trick, one that one can only take so far....a hand-held camera, which masks a lot of sin. Alltogether a crafty and craft-worthy job. ::::: Opera ::::

"IMO it's not hair animation, nor hair model, that convinces. It's the fact that the ambient light in the room, plus the light on her skin, plus the light on the hair, ALL AGREE." Ah, the beauty of HDRI. Note that he only used HDRI in that short test clip though, not in the final production, which lasts about 10 min I think. For the production work, he used something like 40 spotlights in a dome to simulate outdoors lighting, and a large direct light for the sun. I do like the way the hair moves just a little when she tilts her head though, that was nice work. Very natural. The eye movement, however, is out of this world. Spot-on as far as I can tell.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

yes, there was some subtle hair movement which worked. Greg, I'm going to be keeping my animations indoors for a while, but then they are going outside to play. I'll be all over that HDRI/dome stuff when the time comes. Looking forward to it. [[he says as he returns to the mysteries of deep shadows]] I'm starting to believe there is very little true flicker in the animation. There is no shadow shake unless hair is moving. More later. ::::: Opera :::::

I thought the hair looked incredible in that WOnderful Life movie, but the thing that impressed me the most was in regard to what Operaguy is experiencing with Poser's dynamic hair. The hair in that Wonderful Life clip only moved a little, but that's the point. It moved when it HAD to, then stopped, and it wasn't jumping around afterwards. The thing with Poser dynamic hair is that it seems to move from start to finish, regardless if the model is moving it's head or not. What I'm trying to say is that it's very hard to find settings to keep Poser's dynamic hair from acting like WATER, instead of hair. It seems like it's based on fluid dynamics rather than hair dynamics.

having you been actually experimenting with the damping, jimbo? I've not had time to resume my attempts to still the hair. However, LEAVING COLLISION aside for the moment, it is NOT hard to get it to stop moving when the head moves, and that's without touching the damping controls. The reason the hair in my animation above is constantly in motion is because SHE is always in motion, even when it looks like a stop. Just increment up the setting for "Position Force" and you'll get it to be quite steady. If you've been working with the damping controls, and are so inclined, please feed me anything you've learned. I'm about to undertake an actual production scene with two characters, very active, both with strand hair (tho his is short). Thanks ::::: Opera :::::

"What I'm trying to say is that it's very hard to find settings to keep Poser's dynamic hair from acting like WATER, instead of hair. It seems like it's based on fluid dynamics rather than hair dynamics." Actually, strand-based hair in 3dsmax will react the same way if you don't use the proper settings. Poser's dynamic hair is not doing anything unheard of, it's just that the default dynamics settings need to be adjusted to get the reaction you're looking for. Remember, Jimbo, there's no magic button to make things look right. Takes a lot of time to customize settings, no matter what application you are using. That's the one thing that's universal in computer graphics. ;-) I'm sure Liam spent many hours getting the hair to look and behave as it does in that clip.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Ugh. My last post got mussed up. Let me try this again... Operaguy, I had been playing with the dynamics options in the Poser hair room, but everything I come up with is either moving about too much, or not enough. I'll keep at it. Maxxx, if I had 3dsmax, do you see any benefit of importing Poser's dynamic hair in a PZ3 animation over using the strand hair already in place in Max? With Carrara, importing a PZ3 with dynamic hair animations seems not as efficient as just rendering it within Poser. Of course, Carrara doesn't have it's own strand hair system, so there's no other option there.

Jimbo, as Maxx said, you have to be very patient and methodical to learn to control hair in the Poser hair room. But it IS a good tool; it is attainable. I would suggest starting with rock solid dynamic hair, and then only changing one variable at a time, in increments, until you see it affect things. My suggestion is to start with "Position Force" at a high value, say .03 which should make it not move at all in a simple animation. Then, lower it gradually until you get just a little motion. Once you gague the temperment of "Position Force" you could try altering the damping settings. It might take 200 renders to get to first base, or second. ::::: Opera :::::

"Maxxx, if I had 3dsmax, do you see any benefit of importing Poser's dynamic hair in a PZ3 animation over using the strand hair already in place in Max?" Not sure I'm following what you mean here. Do you mean like using a plugin, such as Bodystudio, to import a poser animation with dynamic hair? If so, I guess that could be beneficial if you had to use Poser for the animating, but wanted to render in Max. I used Bodystudio myself a while back, and it worked as advertised, but hosting the .pz3 scene file in the Max environment was cumbersome, and seemed to slow down the workflow. Most Poser meshes are very heavy compared to working with models that take advantage of Max's native subdivision surface modifiers.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

I think that Poser hair is one of those things that very few will master. There is so much unpredicability that it will drive most sane people nuts. Unlike animation with bones or cloth, where you know what you did wrong most of the time. The hair room is built on random number generators. Where any thing can happen and usually does, for me that is. Dale

Attached Link: http://www.joealter.com/newSite/rendering.htm

Interesting thread.

Some things that need to be mentioned:

The "Hair/Fur" plugin that Maxxmodelz is using in 3dsmax is basically the exact same implimentation of Joe Alter's popular "Shave and a Haircut" CG package that Maya uses. This is not the same as the PaintFX hair that Nemirc is showing (see link). It's the same thing, adapted, and given a new name for use in 3dsmax. I've also heard that this is the same hair platform used to create Cinema4D's new hair plugin. Although I don't know it for a fact, I believe I read an article where Joe himself basically accused Maxxon of robbing his invention, without giving him due credit.

This kind of hair is an atmospheric effect, and meant primarily for use in professional compositing. So if you're not using layers or compositing techniques with it, chances are you're not getting it's full potential and power.

From what I can see, Poser's hair system is nowhere near the maturity of Joe Alter's award-winning hair dynamics system, so the comparison of the two is quite unfair at this stage. Poser's hair implimentation is fairly young, is it not? Having only been in existance for a couple versions. Correct me if I'm mistaken, but that's the information I gathered.

Message edited on: 02/14/2006 21:31

As one of the Poser hair guys in this thread, I don't mind going up aginst Joe in all his namifestations! Frankly, it might be the stronger render engines, producing lower times, that makes the other guys look so good. If it weren't for that..... Poser hair room ain't no toy. :::: Opera ::::

Well, I've never used Poser's hair system, so I don't know if it's a "toy" or not. I've never used Shave either, but what I'm saying is that I have seen Joe's hair system used in serious studio production work many times, in both movies and television, so I know it's capabilities are production-proven. It's also a testimony to it's success that 3 of the 4 biggest applications in 3D/fx have adopted it's use, much like MentalRay, which no one disputes is one of the best renderers available. I can't say the same thing about Poser's hair system, because so far I haven't seen it used successfully in any serious production work.

It could be a powerful tool, but so far, I've only seen it used very little, in short clips or stills, and nothing that I have seen overly impressed me. Not talking about the examples in this thread, I'm talking about over all.

Message edited on: 02/14/2006 22:01

Poser won't be running with that crowd. I recently had an hour-long conversation with someone deep in the 3D world here in Los Angeles, and he stated that Poser is used for pre-vis, in commercials, for story-boarding, etc., but that no pro would ever credit it or even admit it...it's not considered a correct tool. No problem. The app is barely out of the hobby incubator. When compared with Joe's system, I wouldn't even attempt to describe it as "a powerful tool." I just know I am getting results, which can be seen in posts 24 and 56 above. I thought you had some sort of actual factual comparison, because of your sentence "From what I can see, Poser's hair system is nowhere near...". ::::: Opera :::::

The studio I worked for a couple years ago wouldn't touch Poser, even for PreViz. It was just a messy application that seemed very unstable and limited to work with. It was actually quicker for us to previz shots with a Biped skeleton from 3ds CharacterStudio, which was about all we used 3dsmax for at the time. All final shots were usually done with Maya or XSI. Oh, come to think of it, I believe we did use Max for certain FX comps and matte creation along the way too.

At any rate, I'd be interested to know what compositing options you have with Poser's hair system. Can you run it in a buffer mode, where the hair could be lit and comped into the frame seperately in post? If you render it as geometry, does Poser have the ability to run it as a seperate pass from the scene geometry?

Perhaps even more important than all this fuss over how fast it renders is how well it behaves with important effects, such as motion blur.

Message edited on: 02/15/2006 07:29

with animation, concern over render time is never a fuss. I don't engage motion blur in Poser, although it is an option. It is better to run the render straight and use the motion blur effect in After Effects. Poser can calculate DOF as well, but same thing: generate a depth map in poser and engage in After Effects, that's much better. In a similar vein, muti-pass rendering functions fine in Poser, as it has a shadow catcher function and any combination of items can be made visible/invisible. There are some who have even worked out ways to use multi-pass strictly on a distance-from-camera layer basis. I have never needed to go that far. The principle advantage is that you if during composite you find one of the layers has a problem, you only need to re-render that layer. Might be going to multi-pass for that reason at some point. The hair WILL render in full motion all by itself; I guess you could render just the hair. I have no idea if this would work okay; I doubt if it would save any raw render time. What is key is: you can make the hair invisible to raytrace. That way, if you need raytrace on for reflection, or anything else, you don't suffer a hit on the hair. An important policy has to do with the simulation. If collision is not on, simulation (calculation of the hair motion prior to render) goes very fast. With collision on, it can bog down, but there is a fine proxy trick: you can calculate over a sphere or a low-res cage of the head, thus reducing sim time significantly. As to your experience of "wouldn't touch it" a few years ago, I think that the contrast with it now being used 'informally' speaks a lot about how far the app has come. I saw a commercial yesterday on the olympics that was definitely at least begun in Poser, some of the models were definitely from there. Might have been rendered elsewhere. ::::: Opera :::::

I think Poser is a great application for what it is. A hobbyists tool. What other application in it's price range has what it has? Like a powerful node based shader system that rivals anything the high end apps can do in the way of shading, plus a strand hair and dynamic cloth system on top of that? Come on, it's one of the best apps you can get for under $300. The fact that it's overlooked by the pros isn't of any consequence really to individuals looking to make a short movie on their own. Sure, I think the high end stuff looks somewhat more refined and perfected, but think about the money and effort that one must put into the software to get that result. Then compare that to what the Poser users are achieving for under $300, and it's a wash. If I had the money and time, I'd buy something like Maya or 3dsmax, take a training course, and use it to WOW people. But if I just wanted to transform my ideas into something creative as quickly and efficiently as possible, I'd use Poser. Why not?

Poser "is known as" a hobbyist's tool by many. It is a hobby for many. But it is already being used by professionals for end results. If you also count all those useing Poser to stage assets and pose them, maybe even animate before exporting to Max, Maya, Carrara, etc., then it is way beyond hobbyist. I HAVE the money for at least XSI basic or Messiah and the first level of Max. Certainly, for Carrara. So for me, that is not the issue. The issue is, I am already getting results usable on a professional level, and so much invested in the Poser learning curve, I am only seeking add-ons, such as an alternate render platform at this time. I am unfortunate in my choice of style that dynamic hair and skin realism in close-up is significant, but lucky in that I do not need big effects, structures, aircraft, space travel, etc. All my final composite work is done in After Effects, so it is just the raw render which I am seeking to kick up. ::::: Opera :::::

"I am unfortunate in my choice of style" That is a key statement (although I don't know that the word "unfortunate" belongs here). Our choice of style determines the value of everything.

Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/

I thought strand hair was only needed when you wanted to use something like wind or other high dramatic things. If all you're doing is moving the character's head a little bit, why do you even need dynamic hair? Couldn't you get a good prop hair with movement morphs to get a realistic effect for soemthing like that? Plus, with all the rendering time you'd save yourself by not using strand hair, you can make the lighting and skin all the more realistic!! Think about it that way too.

I only use prop hair for stills, and it has to be great prop hair. Ironically, in my closeup work, this hair also takes a long time to render, because I want to resolve individual strands. Have you ever tried to morph prop hair for animation? Believe me, I put an enormous amount of time into trying to do it. IMO, you can't get convincing movement with prop hair. Now about your point to 'just move the character's head a little'....for realism you need to have the hair jostle or react just a trifle. It can't be helmet hair. I guess the exception I would make would be for very short hair when it is clear the hair DOES NOT MOVE at all when the character moves. Then, I might try prop hair. justpatric, please note, my opinions on this have to be taken in the context of my chosen style, closups, gestures, etc. as in post 56 above. For medium and long shots, not as critical. ::::: Opera :::::

"why do you even need dynamic hair? Couldn't you get a good prop hair with movement morphs to get a realistic effect for soemthing like that?" He wants to do really extreme close-ups of the face and hair in his shots. 99% of transmapped "prop" hair will fail under that close scrutiny. In other words, it will look totally fake. However, it could pass if the close-up shots were brief, with motion blur to distract from the obvious flaws.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

"Have you ever tried to morph prop hair for animation?" Have you tried "sassy hair 2"? It has awesome morphs that I was able to get relatively convincing motion from. It's a medium-length hair, but the textures for it are not going to hold up to very close-up shots where movement is minimal. I think worrying about several strands moving about slightly on the head when a character just flinches or moves ever so subtle is absurd for a one-man-show, John. Especially when most people (audience) won't give a shit, or even notice it. They'll be looking at the eyes and skin (as most people do when they see a face up close), and judging the realism by that. Eyes are the most convincing part in realism. However, you are aiming for ultra-super-hyper realism for hair it seems, so to that I wish you the best of luck! Glad I'm not working on such a task. LOL! ;-)

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

I like wild hair as prop hair for stills, but I tried animating it, no go. "worrying about several strands moving about ..." I am overshooting on obsession so in order to push the envelope, so that when I pull back everything still looks great and works. I know that is probably making people nuts, but that's my deal. ::::: Opera :::::

"I know that is probably making people nuts, but that's my deal." As long as it's not driving you nuts, it's ok. ;-P

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Forum: Animation

Subject: Strand-based hair for animation? Some thoughts and tests...