Dodger sez
[modified compile of a Trillian conversation in the form of an argument follows]:

To get the Poser community at large to realise that:

a) there are places other than the DAZ store and the RMP that sell Poser content

b) There are places other than the DAZ store that sell GOOD Poser content (the RMP even has some)

c) If someone other than DAZ makes a Poser figure, it doesn't automatically suck

?

I may be venting here a bit, but there's a problem with the dynamic of the community in general and it needs to be addressed...

If someone makes a figure, unless that somoene is the DAZ corporate entity, no one will bother to help by making add-ons. The other merchants and free stuff makers will usually figure it's not worth the time because it won't sell.

But why won't it sell?

Really, let's examine this...

It won't sell because there's no stuff for it.

HEY look, angry bike! (err, vicious cycle).

I know this, you probably know this. Anton sure as $% knows this by now.

Yet we let it happen. We don't bother to make things for the little guy because they won't sell a lot, and then the little guy doesn't have a lot of stuff, so he doesn't sell a lot, so there are less copies of him in circulation, so there are less people who need to buy stuff for him, so there are less sales of stuff for him, so there's a justification to not make stuff for him, even though it's the cause.

I'm not just bitching and whining here, either. I want people's opinions on what figures should have what stuff for them, but NOT DAZ figures. At least not the big popular DAZ figures. Not DAZ Unimesh figures anyway. Other figures. New figures. Other people's figures.

Elle. Apollo Max. Posette. Even HER. The Aeons. Hell, even Grim. Grim there's the classic forgotten guy, even if he IS DAZ.

Why am I [we, all four of us actually] asking this?

Because I'm going to do it my damned self. I will pick a few figures form the response here and champion them. I will address the 'it doesn't have enough stuff' issue with at least one figure and make sure it DOES. Lots. Everything done for anyone that makes sense to convert and new stuff, even textures if need be. Remaps. Morphs. Whatever. And it will be dirt cheap.

The only catch is, if you post here wanting things for someone, you better put your money where your mouth is. Dirt cheap makes that easy, but you're on the honour system and under a public obligation to make the purchase when the stuff arrives.

I think if we work together, we can make this a real honest to god free market rather than an oligopoly like it is now. Screw this big fish crap, screw this little pond crap. The only way our community and market are going to survive in the long run is if they grow. I want a RIVER.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 14:05

I'm the asshole. You wanna be a shit? You gotta go through ME.

or (d) when somebody introduces a new figure that doesn't suck, it isn't necessarily the case that it secretly incorporates geometry and JPs from Daz or zygote figures.

So many to choose from... but I will vote for Apollo Max.
Other would be the P6 male figures James and Ben. Poor little Ben only has jeans/shirt and shoes... and that is most likely all he will ever have.
One female that I like is Miki, but she is getting "some" support.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 14:19

I haven't bought anything from daz in over a year. I even removed V3, M3 and SP from my runtime so I wouldn't have to look at all those dang pose libraries. I am now at peace with the world and my teeth are whiter ;)

Glamorous Glennis/Jessi. There are a few packages out for her, but not much. And James.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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sigh asked these questions over and over again. there are many excellent figures and merchants out there that don't sell at daz which are ignored.

example : Sixus1 released a deamon figure for next to nothing. excellent figure as well.

daz release a demon figure. not as good. (wing joints to the body for instance)

which gets the support and overwhelming asskissing crap?

yup.

the daz one.... which costs 6 times more.

funny world ain't it?
oh to add. nothing against daz. just the mindless Cult that has grown up around their merchandise.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 14:28

It's all a case of marketing. DAZ is very good at marketing... they know how to sell you stuff you really don't need. They really make you feel thst if you're not buying their stuff you're inferior and if you don't buy their latest hype, you're not trendy and cool. They portray their figures as superior, even if they're really junk and their good at it. DAZ does understand Poser -- D/S users very well, a lot of them cannot resist temptation and have a hole in their wallet. CP, RMP, RDNA and others do not use these kind of sales tactics, they're much more polite, customer orientated and less aggressive and that is, in this community a weakness. If DAZ would have made AM, James or Jessi, they would have gotten applause, instead of being bashed all the time. I do seriously doubt a lot of people have really given James a try and a closer look. He's a much better figure then M3 is. Good luck in going against the DAZ empire.... The only place that I do spent my money at is mostly CP, but that store sells stuff from the better non DAZ merchants anyway. I do hope that more good merchants (we've seen a few lately) do have the guts to say no to the big empire.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I don't think it's a "mindless cult." But I don't think there's much one person (or even a few people) can do about it. People stick with DAZ figures for the same reason most people stick with Windows. No, we aren't blind to the flaws of Windows. Yes, we know all about all the advantages of Macs and Linux. But they don't outweight the big advantage: compatibility.

I vote for Apollo Max. It's a great figure and does have a little bit of decent support, especially at RDNA. I can't promise I'll buy just anything for him since my artwork is predominantly Sci-Fi oriented. But, I have put my money where my mouth is previously for other figures by supporting the good Sci-Fi content providers out there. Some of the products may be a bit pricey, but I recognize that the Sci-Fi market appears a bit smaller than the fantasy and pin-up markets, so I'm willing to pay for quality. If it is skin tight or has a bare mid-riff though, I'm not buying it - I need practical, believable clothing. As a side note, I'd also love to see some things for your Zzasz figure at PoserPros. Some Sci-Fi armor perhaps?

I have to disagree. it is a mindless cult. you see.. the Cult will buy anything, whether they need it or not, whthter they will use it or not. If that ain't cult behavior, I need to change my dictionary....

Apollo Max is a good choice ... especially since those who purchase "Practical Poser 6" get a compact version and will be looking for stuff for him!

Guilty as charged yout honour! Yes I am on record as saying I won't buy a figure because----- Yada, yada! I said this about Miki and am now regretting it! Like many I imagine, I have some plastic to spend each Month on content for what is a hobby for me, and over the last couple of years I have purchased many clothing items for V3, M3 you get the picture. I didn't get Miki because I would have to start all over again getting stuff for her which limits, in the short term what I can do image wise with her! I'm now regretting that decision and intend getting her next Month. My reasons are simple, the renders I've seen of her make her look really excellent and the support for her among merchants is growing, hence more stuff for her. I'm not a modeller and don't intend to ever model so I need value for money for what I need to buy, So here's to you for trying, I hope you succeed!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

There is some support for Miki, now that you mention it. I think it's because she really does offer something V3 doesn't: a realistic, expressive Asian face. I do buy stuff for Miki. I would buy stuff for Koji, if there were any. (Though frankly, I don't care for Koji's body. I don't care for M3's body, either, but at least it's easy to morph.)

I would buy stuff for Miki and Koji. Though probably not pinup gear. I like Miki's casual clothing pack, stuff like that.

I have to disagree. it is a mindless cult. you see.. the Cult will buy anything, whether they need it or not, whthter they will use it or not.

I don't think that applies to the average Poser user. You'd have to be awfully wealthy to do that these days; there's so much stuff being sold.

I admit I have "bought" things I don't really need from DAZ...but usually, it's not for real money. For example, I bought the Dragonworld stuff, and got the free Wyvern, even though I didn't really need any of it. But I had the $50 gift certificate from Christmas, and it was expiring. I would either lose it and get nothing, or use it to "buy" the Dragonworld stuff. I bought the Dragonworld stuff.

DAZ marketing at its finest...

Well, I have bought lots of different figures and almost all of them have virtually no support. The last alternative female figure I put my hopes in was Neftis's Elle, which, although a great figure, has nothing like the content available for any of the DAZ figures. WW could certainly ease the lack of clothes but there's still a dearth of stuff available. As a content creator, I got burned making a texture set for a figure that wasn't well supported, too. I almost started working on Renda/Renda 2, too. Be a long time before I do that again. Chances are I'll make a new set for Miki because she appears to be doing well. Other, non DAZ models, I'll wait and see.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Dang I just typed a long reply to this..and it disappeared..durnit! Runs over and kicks the Renderosity webmaster in the kneecap..lol Never mind..I'll try a condensed version.. I want to see somebody make new models not based on the "giants" and and..maybe some stuff that is still is based on the original Poser Pro Pack characters..like Posette..something like 3Dream did with Eternal Posette (no longer available) of course. gasp..Poser Pro Pack..well yeah..so? ..at least I don't come here complaining it won't work..lol and for the record it was not cheap when I bought it either :P I wont however diss Daz..they are pricey..true..but they have been pretty decent to me..well ok..at least one person there has been :0) But I would say 99% of what I buy is here at Renderosity..

Ditto Tunesy. My runtime is a DAZ-free zone. Got tired of proprietary lock-down. Might be a personal bias involved, though: Vicky looks and acts like my ex-wife. Forces her stuff to the top of the list with exclamation points, crashes the system if everything isn't just right.

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I dont wait for the support to come to the figures I like.

I bring the figures I like to the support:

James (and Koji) have a great face, but I couldnt care less about their bodys.
M3s body isnt perfect, but far more versaitle and it has tons of support.
So why should I bother with their unsupported bodys if all it takes is a bit of Frankensteining to get all the support I could ever want. ^-^

Same for Jessi and Miki, and any other non-DAZ Mesh out there.

Resistance is futile. Prepare to be DAZimilated.

;-)

stahlratte

Thats one thing I do dislike..that 8 mile long !V3 inj list under poses..Daz should have known better than doing that at least.. But then again..V3 isn't as Pro Pack friendly as the earlier versions I wont toss V3 mostly because I got too many better looking girls from around here that needs her base..wonder if I can just use the base and still toss the 8 mile list though???

James, Miki, Judy and EJ, those are my gals and guys. The girls steal all Vickies clothes and skin. James, can steal all the other guy's clothes. I've gotten to where I can do a hair fit in about a minute. With these models, I can create a city full of people, all with different faces and bodies. And although not perfect, the three of them are far superior to anything Unimesh. The only issue: lack of body morphs for James. ::::: Opera :::::

Dang, Stahlrette. That looks pretty good. I wouldn't mind Koji's head on David's body, or Miki's head on SP's body. But how do you handle the textures?

So far the head and upper part of the neck take James textures, while the rest takes M3 textures. So you have to blend one of the textures to the other in photoshop first and maybe do a bit of postwork where both meet.

Would be far better if the head would be remapped to M3, but I really do suck at mapping. LOL.

Maybe one day a kind soul like AprilYSH who remapped Dork, Posette and Stephanie I will remap Jessi, James, Koji and Miki to take V3 and M3 textures. ;-)

I agree, although Mikis original body really isnt bad, her head on Stephanie Petites body would be a great combo.

stahlratte

Mike3s body YUK!!!

Mike3s body YUK!!!<<

Well, not everybody can have such a nice body as the DORK : ;-)

That brings me back to the original topic.
Pitklad is just investing a lot of time to give the P4 Dork a complete overhaul.

I dont think hed mind a little support to bring the Dork back into the spotlight a bit. ^-^

stahlratte

I find it interesting, here we have a thread about moving away from Daz products and supporting other vendors. and we have ppl talking about mixing daz products into other vendors products. defeating the point of the questions / excersise? proving my Cult theory? we'll schedule that debate for next week.

Yes I am a DAZoholic, I want to quit but Aiko wont let me.

It's "mind over matter". If I don't mind,it don't matter.

radstorm - you can always tuck the !!!V3 stuff in the Pose folder wherever it suits you, or rearrange the whole library they way you see it fit, especially in Poser 6 (or so I heard), just don't touch the !!!DAZ, Geometry and Textures folders which you don't see from inside the Poser anyway :)

I have a whole zoo in my runtime, from DAZ people to the most unexpected humans (and non humans) ever created for Poser. I use whatever suits my mood.

DAZ is not the only place to get Poser content, actually I got to know about it some years after I started to work with Poser :) If you don't like something, don't use it, that's simple. And blaming on DAZ (CP, Sixus1, etc) that some figures do not get enough support is illogical. Merchants want to earn money, not only to do something they love to do. And it's not a merchant's fault that V3 stuff sells way better than anything else... I'd like to see more support for Eroko and MDP Anime Girl :) THEY are totally unsupported :)

Michal edited to add some details

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 16:29

I dunno, I currently have in my Runtime, Vic3, Steph3, David, Mike3, Freak, The Girl, Miki, Koji, Jessi, James, The Girl Next Door [yeah she runs off vic3 but you try and put v3 clothes on her..so I consider her a different character] Aiko3, Hiro, the Troll, Sixus1 Minotaur & Centaur,...David is a sweet character even if he is from DAZ. I think a lot of people have purchased from places like DAZ and Renderosity due to their popularity...some people might feel smaller independent producers might not have good credit card safety...Or might feel like they're more likely to get ripped off compared to the bigger company or they question the sites security, might think they won't get any customer service. I know when I've purchased from other smaller Poser sites I've second-guessed myself on my use of my credit card. Another item is, when I bought Poser5 as a brand new customer, I was treated to advertisements in the box for DAZ, Renderosity and RunTimeDNA...so as a brand spanking new Poser nut where do you think I went? Did I know any better? Nope. Personally, I'm looking for what looks as close to real as possible. Some places that have their own characters they have looked too cartoony to me to spend money on them. Now, I got the Girl, Aiko3 for free from DAZ during a sale, have I used them yet? Nope. Also a lot of people are looking for flexibility in their models, adding morphs and the changeabilty and ease of use. I could be wrong but the DAZ family have very long morph lists. Also a lot of people look at the galleries and see what other people are using, give these artists who constantly get 40-50 comments on each piece of their art a new character model to work with and see if that doesn't boost sales. I think DAZ wouldn't be where it is today without Rosity, and same goes the other way around. Rosity is a huge melting pot, its ability to entertain a wide range of artists is its draw. Word of mouth is the most powerful form of advertising, ie going back to those artists who can gather large numbers of hits/comments. When a new character or texture hits the market, I do a search in the galleries to see how other people have used them, how they look etc. What I would really like to see is more content for the guys. I'm kind of tired to seeing 10 things for the females to every 1 item for the guys. I wish the guys would come over looking as good as the females, but I think the most % of Poser artists are men. The Poser-men are coming along, but certainly at a slower pace compared to the female figures. I've often heard that the reason why there aren't many items to pick from is because there is no market for it...well if all we had to pick from was funky looking stuff then of course we're not going to pay money for it which in the long run isn't going to make them popular or create a decent market. Some of these merchants who put out some really great looking female characters need to try and dish out some good looking men for a change...how about that for a challenge? [there are some out there, don't get me wrong, but a very low %] I have sent a few of these artists and email to see if they are going to come out with a male character to match their females and I've been told it's in the works...so far it's been over a year now and no male sighted. Ok, I'm getting off the soap box now, I've probably mangled the subject with my tangent. I don't even know if I stayed on topic...waves Rosity ate my post, hopefully didn't post twice...

Thanks 4blueyes..I will try that :0) Once again I repeat..I won't diss Daz..I have to give them credit for creating a successful model..you have to remember back then nobody else was creating an alternative.. Another reason is that there are merchants who sell there and here also such as Quarker..I don't think they sell at Daz because they are cult followers :0) It's not always big that attracts the band wagon either..a good example would be Long Hair Evolution..look at the following it got..and it's a freebie :0)

First off, I bought a few of the Aeon Products: I really loved The Boy. So far there hasn't been any other companion for Girl close to him. What happened to them, they seemed to die out for lack of clothes, textures etc. I have gone with the Poser 6 Family as well as Miki, Koji, Terai Yuki 2 and Apollo Max. My Miki Folder seems to be growing, mainly do to merchant support. TY2 also seems to be gaining in support from some merchants. I would buy more for Koji, James and AM, if more textures, clothes etc were available. I like AM and wish the newest Casual clothes were for AM, not just M3. Both James and Koji are still waiting for Full Body Morphs. I believe there is a Body Builder "Only" morph for James. Re:Maybe one day a kind soul like AprilYSH who remapped Dork, Posette and Stephanie I will remap Jessi, James, Koji and Miki to take V3 and M3 textures. ;-) Maybe some merchants could get together as PhilC and Kamilche did with WW etc and come up with a Universal Texture Converter that would work with AM, Koji, James, Jessi, Miki etc????? I think WardRobe Wizard has helped alot with my divestiture of Daz Figures. I can now modify clothes for the figures I do like using, such as Miki, Koji etc. By all means, please Give it a Try merchants. I was hoping for a female companion for Apollo Max. Unfortunately it sounds like Anton has stopped production on her. Cheers DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

I'm not going to get involved in the politics here, but would really like to see more clothes for Kiki. No, she's not a Daz character, but is made by Lady Little Fox who is now at RDNA...is that a problem? Anyway you asked and that's what I would like to see more of. :-)

My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice!

*and we have ppl talking about mixing daz products into other vendors products.

defeating the point of the questions / excersise? proving my Cult theory?*

No, proving my "compatibility" theory. :)

"Frankensteins" are useful because they can wear the same clothing as DAZ figures. Wardrobe Wizard is great, but it's not the same as having clothing that is actually made for the figure.

no, they are not that useful since they break EULA terms.

read the EULA's lad.. you'll see.
and your're STILL going back to Daz for morph's and clothes. we're trying to encourage support for OTHER vendors. did you miss that?

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 17:01

I'm not planning to sell or redistribute. Though as I understand it, you can redistribute them, as long as they are encoded. Otherwise, how could Little_Dragon distribute Mia?

and that can be revoked/recalled/banned at anytime by Daz. read the EULA.

Eh. I don't care. I'm not a merchant. I'm not planning to redistribute anything. I wouldn't expect Frankensteins to ever really catch on, due to the texture issue. (Unless it's an anime figure, like Bel-Bel.)

ok.. then why are talking about it in this thread, which is asking about what support is wanted for NON DAZ FIGURES?
since it seems you've not read the first post and are just blathering on.
I'd really like an answer to that.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 17:11

I believe the question is more about why do non DAZ figures not sell as well as their DAZ counterparts.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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proving my Cult theory?<<

Hardly.

Rather a lesson in eclecticism. :-)

Use the stuff that works and throw away what not works.
And obviously the non-DAZ meshes dont "work" for the majority of users.

As for EULAs., you better get your facts straight.
As long as you decode them properly, Frankensteins are fine.
Only one merchant obviously thinks that his creations must be protected from unauthorized improvments. ;-)

You want to break DAZ dominance ?

Fine, then maybe start by creating some meshes that are actually better than their unimesh.
Not just better because it isnt DAZ, but better because they are more realistic, have better mesh topology, are more versaitle, more easy to use and (VERY IMPORTANT) are more attractive.

And price them right so that everybody can afford it.

THEN, and ONLY then, you might have a chance that people give up their gigabites of DAZ content and switch over.

Everything else is just wishfull thinking.

Most merchants need to make money and have only limited time. So they of course will spend their time for things that bring the most profit.
I supported NEA/Posette and Dork just for fun, but if I wanted to make money from my stuff, I wouldnt have touched them with a ten foot pole.
I really like them, but from a monetary point of view, products for them would be be a waste of time because they would be unsaleable these days.

If you want to support a non-DAZ mesh, just do it.
But dont expect others to voluntarily loose money.

Things are not like they are because DAZ are devils incarnate and the Poserites are mindless sheep.
Things are what they are because all other meshes are simply not good enough to compete.
And they wont get better with more support.

As for UTC and WardrobeWizzard.
It was pretty stupid from e-frontier to not map Jessi and James like V3 and M3, or at least map them like V2 and M2 like Judy and Don.
From what I know there wont be a Jessi/James UTC plugin because the developer simply doesnt see enogh sales for it to be worthwhile.
And Im VERY sceptical about any kind of automatic clothing conversions.
You just cant get the same quality with converted clothes than you get with clothes that were made for the mesh.
And the more detailed the clothing mesh is, the more the conversion will lack cmpared to the original item.

So I very much prefer to use hybrids, as they can be clothed as easily as the original meshes without any loss of quality.

stahlratte

I am willing to support any vender that creates stuff I need, and note I am here..not at Daz :o) Let's not forget too..there are lots of merchants who create stuff not based on anything except their own ideas..such as props, scenery, types of textures, scripts, etc It's also nice to see someone still is working with the old Poser characters like Dork. :0) I also agree..there needs to be more support of the male characters..so all these girls will have more of a variety to smack around .. or worse (see my severed head thread) lol

I did read the first post. I answered part c). As for a) and b)...can't answer that, because I've always bought my Poser stuff all over the place. 3dCommune, PoserPros (even before it was DAZ), Faerie-Dreams, Netherworks, RDNA, CP, etc. It's more convenient to shop at one big store, but if a merchant offers a better price at his or her Web site, I'll shop there.

"As for EULAs., you better get your facts straight. As long as you decode them properly, Frankensteins are fine. Only one merchant obviously thinks that his creations must be protected from unauthorized improvments. ;-)" get yours straight. th Daz EULA covers dirivative works of which a hybrid is one and Dazz reserve the right to force any dirivative to be withdrawn at their request. again. READ THE EULA. as to the merchant who's that?

" I did read the first post. I answered part c). As for a) and b)...can't answer that, because I've always bought my Poser stuff all over the place. 3dCommune, PoserPros (even before it was DAZ), Faerie-Dreams, Netherworks, RDNA, CP, etc. It's more convenient to shop at one big store, but if a merchant offers a better price at his or her Web site, I'll shop there." I'm sorry. your later posts missed the point of the discussion so I did'nt know if you had read the post.

It's called "thread drift." You may or may not have noticed, but it happens here. A lot.

OK, here's my take on the subject (as a whole). Firstly, I'd have to say (from my reading & legal advice received) - "Frankenstiens" are perfectly within the terms of the EULA so long as you do not redistribute them. Redistributing them requires permission or encoding against the originals. Encoding is a bit "iffy" without permission (as the current EULA doesn't provide any exceptions), but DAZ seem to be sweet with it. I don't rely on good intentions - but others seem fine to shrug Secondly, I would say the best figures to support would be those that do not require third-party purchases. Apollo Maximus IS a good figure, but his price is hefty. James is pretty good, Domus/Dork is great for low poly (compared to other Poser figures that is), Jessi (when her angry brow is morphed away) is decent, etc. All of them come free with Poser or are a free download away. And frankly - their body shapes are closer to "reality" than the Unimesh crew anyway! I mean - M3 looks like he was castrated young, and don't get me started on David. And to be honest - I have not seen a single woman look like V3's body. There are also some of the toonish characters out there aside from Aiko that could use support. HER is a great model with next to no support. Netherworks did some great morphs for here (which are selling at a very nice price btw), but there are next to no outfits/props for the figure. I'd say, from a marketting standpoint, the best thing to do is to determine what outfits/content you are best at making and then focus on the figures that will complement that. If you're into morphing/altering figures - go for the Project Human bases and release an "XFX Variant" of them, like you did with Aeon. If you're good at sci-fi/vehicles/etc - I'd say go for HER & HIM - they are well suited to a stylistic set of content or for anime-like stuff - Maya/Anime-doll (free/low-cost). If you are into clothing - go for one of the default or altered default figures. The way I see it, with DAZ having released V3/M3 for "free" (with that EULA I cannot say that without the inverted commas) - you'd be fighting a hard uphill battle to get people to purchase a figure for ~$50 and then buying your content. Stick to the low cost & free models, as the barrier to entry on them is much lower. --EK

I got no problems shopping at a merchant's personal site either, randy..sometimes you can find really good stuff there you won't find on their big site store list...such as PhilC and others.. What I won't do is join those PPV (pay per view) or pay membership poser sites. I am only going to spend on a merchant's product, not on the webmaster's overhead.

th Daz EULA covers dirivative works of which a hybrid is one and Dazz reserve the right to force any dirivative to be withdrawn at their request.<< And your point is ? With the same paragraph, they could force each and any clothing item to be withdrawn, too, because they all are derivative works. There is an afwul lot of things wrtten in EULAs just to cover every possible situation, but that doesnt mean that this part would be ever enforced. With the same paragraph, they could force any clothing item to be withdrawn, too. So what makes you think they would ever do this ? But if you really, really, REALLY want to be on the safe side, you just can create a conforming head for the DAZ figures like Neftis did. As for the merchant, I know that Anton doesnt allow his AM geometry to be redistributed, not even encoded. This makes of course distribution of any Hybrids impossible. stahlratte

Yeah, PhilC's got some great stuff, and some great deals. I am willing to join subscription sites, but they have to have an established reputation. I have PoserWorld and Props Club subscriptions, and I'm happy with them, but it took a long time before I signed up. Basically, enough time so that I got an idea of what kind of stuff they would have, how regularly it would be uploaded, etc.

"With the same paragraph, they could force each and any clothing item to be withdrawn, too, because they all are derivative works." bingo! you get it!

I've bought at DAZ, Renderosity, 3DCommune, PoserPros, RDNA, Sixus1, CP, you name it. I shop where the items I want are sold. Which is all over the place. Including DAZ and Renderosity. Different marketplaces have different specialties. For natural environments RDNA is just about unbeatable. For monsters there's Sixus1. I like most unimesh figures, despite their obvious shortcomings - so that's DAZ. Transmapped hair - either Kozaburo or the 'rosity RMP. Skin textures - here at 'rosity. The list goes on, Ad infinitum and/or ad nauseam. That said, if someone made a good medieval outfit or Roman/medieval armor and weapons for James, I'd buy it. Fantasy outfit for Eternal Judy or Glamorous Jessi - I'd buy it. Doesn't matter at what marketplace.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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bingo! you get it!<<

Again, and your point is ?

Oh wait, I just read in your profile that sixus1 is "your manager ?!"

Hmm, didnt sixus try to distribute a free figure that could wear V3 clothing and DAZ was OK with that as long as she was distributed encoded. But sixus refused to that and rather withdrew her completely ?

Hmmm......seems this is not about cults, but more about hidden agendas. LOL. ;-p

stahlratte

I still vote for Apollo Max. Modern every day non-sexy clothes, period clothes top my list.

I vote for Elle and Apollo...I'm pretty sick of unimesh and will no longer support it.

I have heard that James texture is interchangable with Koji. Has anyone heard if Jessi textures are interchangable with Miki? If that were true, then concentrating on the "Shipped with Poser 6" Figure textures would fill the "low cost to acquire", James & Jessi. And the bonus would be that the textures could be used on Koji and Miki. One Texture, two potential product buyers. I find most recent purchases for me are at R'osity becuase they seem to have the best selection for Miki and TY2. Cheers DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

"Hmmm......seems this is not about cults, but more about hidden agendas. LOL." Yep, personal resentments from the same old anti-DAZ voices. It's a poor substitute for substantial critique, and in a twisted sort of way, comic for its predictability. If you want to criticize DAZ, speak maturely of their actual shortcomings, don't just make stuff up and insult their customers. I buy frequently from that store, but if anyone wants to accuse me of mindless or cultish behavior, I'd be happy to offer some reality orientation. :-) Who with expendible income doesn't occasionally blow it on things they don't really need? If merchants want to compete with the dominant venues, the best thing they can do is excel at product and presentation. I realize that for example Anton is frustrated because Apollo is a superior product, but people aren't buying the support items in the hoped-for numbers. If he's frustrated, at least he, RDNA, and the content creators can say they gave it their best professional shot. It's frustrating for me, as someone who purchased almost everything ever made for Apollo, to read about the disappointments and the possibility that the female counterpart won't be released, but still ... at least that stuff has a reputation for high quality. Perhaps part of the problem there is the value proposition. "M3 is free ... why should I shell out for another male when what I really want is booby Barbie?" Marketing is important indeed, but word of mouth is almost as powerful in this scene. In my opinion, the Sixus model is exemplary, even if I'm only a "sometimes" customer. They've managed to build a strong reputation, a unique identity, and a very loyal customer base. They make it fun, and that matters. They're not afraid of "niche" products, and are often quite generous with freebies and low prices. That helps with loyalty and sales volume. I can think of examples of less intersting stores that I'm uninclined to visit frequently. One of them is making a sincere effort at self-promotion, but unfortunately their stock is quite uninspiring; the products appear to be of less-than-stellar quality. Not necessarily their fault as it's hard to attract "top" merchants with pre-exsiting alignments, and I don't wish them harm, but they're not doing anything that makes me think "gotta see what's up over there." Actually, there's been a bit of the opposite ... turn-offs. Avoid turn-offs within reason if possible. :-) Because we're a bit of a "closed circuit" scene, it's not commercially advantageous to have staffpersons who behave in volitile and insulting manners in public. Many of us couldn't care less about the personalities ... the product should be the thing, but realistically speaking many are put off by ugly behavior and boycott such individuals based on perceptions, for what they're worth.

I vote for the Poser People! You know the ones folks, those sad neglected Poser kids from Poser 4 all the way to Poser 6. Those fantastic Poser 6 Adults James, Jessi, Miki and Koji. I include Miki and Koji as Poser people even though they didn't come with the package. They were made and distributed by the package owners which makes them the same family of characters in my book.

"get yours straight. th Daz EULA covers dirivative works of which a hybrid is one and Dazz reserve the right to force any dirivative to be withdrawn at their request. again. READ THE EULA."

It depends upon what is meant by "derivative." I don't think you're talking about items like Dodger's Aeon figures, but if you are, they are fine as far as DAZ is concerned. At least that's what their copyright agent told me. There are some pretty clear reasons for this ... one has to have the DAZ original meshes in the first place, and for those Aeon figures that can wear DAZ mesh clothing ... still more potential sales of DAZ products. Obviously, they're very liberal regarding clothing made from their meshes in a "derivative" manner. No point in getting into the technical nitty-gritty here, but the reality is that the EULA is more about perfectly reasonable self-protection than utter monopoly. The company insists that their relationship with the community is symbiotic, that it works to mutual advantage.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 18:47

Miki and Koji are laid out roughly like James. Jessi is different. I don't think James and Koji can use each other's textures. I tried once, and it didn't quite fit.

.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Miki and Koji are laid out roughly like James. Jessi is different. I don't think James and Koji can use each other's textures. I tried once, and it didn't quite fit. Thanks for the reply to that question Randym77. I think Nigel has a post with Koji wearing a 3rd Party James texture. I think it is RDNA's - Arthur. Cheers DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Stahlratte, Just because DAZ hasn't as YET exercised their rights under the EULA doesn't mean they won't. This is not a conspiracy theory thing, but simple business sense. DAZ may be made up of nice people (I'm not making comment on that as I don't know any of them personally), but it IS a corporation. If another company were to somehow make one of their cash-cows obsolete (just for sake of example, let's say they release a better catsuit) - DAZ can force them to stop releasing it. DAZ is not a person. DAZ is not the nice support employee at the end of the phone. DAZ is a profit-motivated corporation with a responsibility to it's stakeholders. As such, when threatened by another profit-motivated entity (the creator/seller of the better catsuit), one needs to assume it will react along it's motives and NOT the best interests of the Poser public. And let's be frank, DAZ relies on irrational purchasing behaviour for a substantial chunk of it's profits. As does most the Poser market. DAZ do have the better sales/marketting team and they use this to good effect to convince people to purchase things they have no real need or even desire for. Just how many people purchased the Girl? How many shots do you STILL see being made with her. If there is even 5% of the purchasers submitting renders of the figure to galleries now - I will be incredibly surprised. As mentioned before - this is not DAZ specific, but they are the best at it I know of for Poser content. The kind of behaviour exhibited by the general customer of DAZ IS irrational and does somewhat fit into "cult mindset". As for dismissing claims because someone making them is attached to a competitor of DAZ, that too is irrational behaviour. The claims made are not invalidated by the person making them. Hell, the EULA claims made are validated by both independant lawyers (mine at least) and by DAZ themselves. They have stated quite specifically (in both these forums and on their own) that they reserve the right to make someone take down clothing items derived from their figures if they feel the need to. I personally don't care that you prefer the Unimesh. Hell, if it weren't for the EULA - I would be probably be a frequent user of it (I think the Freak looks awesome & I can see many benefits in a single mesh over a variety of figures). I ask you simply not to discard all people with issues about the EULA due to your feelings towards one of them. I for one don't lump you in with the crazies who support DAZ (yes, there are crazies on both sides). --EK

It might be possible to make a texture that would work on both James and Koji, but IME, you have the usual little problems. This is Koji wearing the James High-Res texture. The eyebrows don't look right, and the lips are way off.

Doesn't show in the image, but the nipples are off, too.

Eternl_Knight: that "better catsuit" example makes me wonder. If it is derived from the DAZ mesh everything is clear as glass: DAZ has the option to stop the release. But if this better catsuit is modeled from scratch? Joint parameters will look a LOT like the joint parameters of the figure it conforms to - or else it wouldn't conform. Morphs would be unique to the catsuit, made from scratch. Could DAZ still force it off the market? I seriously doubt it. UVmapping is another can of worms. What if that "better catsuit" were UV compatible with the DAZ catsuit? Would it give DAZ a handle if they wanted it off the market? I doubt whether DAZ would have an item pulled, even if they could according to their EULA. You're absolutely right, DAZ is a profit-motivated operation. And they know their customers pretty well, including the probability of loosing customers if they did something that would be perceived as unreasonable. Nevertheless, if they CAN do it, they WILL do it if it is in their own interests. That's business.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

Some of you folks make accurate points about what DAZ could do per their EULA if they really, really wanted to, but regardless of whether or not they are nice, just imagine ... Imagine them saying "OK, everyone out of the pool. Everything that is in any way derivative of our proprietary meshes must be removed from distribution whether commercial or free." Thousands of clothing items. It would be commercial suicide. Supporting merchant and customer loyalty would be badly damaged. They know how mob-like the community is. They're reminded frequently. They know how easily offended and incensed we are. It's accurate to say "just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they never will," but only "technically." Cut 'em a little slack for intelligence, if nothing else.

And lest I be accused of worship, lemme just say that I think Unimesh has been overused too. In my opinon the "young teens" and the newer "Millennium children" are too monstrous to be acceptable. They look like reproportioned V3, which I guess it's reasonably accurate to say they are. The original Mil Kids were a bit too cartoony (being V2 derivative,) but I prefer them to the bizarrely un-childlike Unimesh kids, pardon the extreme thread drift. :-)

I like DAZ stuff: and I will therefore buy DAZ stuff. Regardless of implied -- or direct -- insults to those of us who choose to do this.

I don't check with anyone else first in order to find out what they think that I should be buying. I buy as I please. Not as someone else with an agenda thinks that I ought to.

I've never been one to follow along when a shouting man yells instructions at me. In fact, the chances are pretty good that I'll do the exact opposite of whatever it is that he's ordering me to do -- merely on general principles, if for no other reason.

---

Yes -- Miki shows promise. And why would this be.....? I don't attribute it to any great mystery, or to any sort of 3D technical issues. I'd simply say that it's because Miki is cute. Hey.....I'm tempted to buy her.

What's it going to take for people to figure out that no male figure -- no matter how well-put-together his mesh happens to be -- is ever going to sell with anything like the kinds of numbers that FEMALE "V3-esque" figures will sell?

I don't want Apollo ((and I feel safe in saying that I speak for many, many silent Poser shoppers in this)). However: I would be one of the first in line to purchase 'Venus', if she was ever offered up for sale.

---

If any merchants out there wish to offer support for figures other than the DAZ icons -- then have at it. It's a free community. No one is stopping you from supporting the figure(s) of your choice. As I see things: the more the merrier.

Just don't be looking to get rich in the process.

If you do it -- then do it as a labor of love. Not because you expect to see spectacular sales results.

Otherwise, you are highly likely to find yourself both bitter and disappointed in the end. This might be a 'free' community. But it isn't usually a kind one.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Re: And lest I be accused of worship, lemme just say that I think Unimesh has been overused too. I have seen so many textureMorphs of V3 that now days they all just blend in.

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

I haven't bought Apollo. (Yet, anyway.) I don't mind his male-ness. I am more willing to spend in male figures, actually. But honestly, I just don't care for Apollo's looks. I like M3 (except for the shoulders). I love David, body and face. I love James' and Koji's heads, but not their bodies. (Weird proportions.) Apollo just doesn't do it for me. I have seen some nice body morphs, but so far, I've never seen a render of his face that makes me want to buy him. I'm even less interested in Venus, because I have a lot of attractive, versatile female figures already. And V4 is due out any month now.

Agree with Dean about new MilKids (including the baby). I'm rather disappointed with them, though they can be morphed to look decent. I am leaning toward buying the Cubed babies (or at least one of them - I guess I don't need both).

I get tired of the fact that if you want support for another type of figure you are anti-DAZ. Likewise, if you are fatigued or no longer inspired by the unimesh line, you're presumed to be anti-DAZ as well. I like DAZ stuff, but I also like having options...

I have an agenda? ye gods.. 4 cats, 1 dog and now an Agenda. what do I feed it? no. I have no agenda. none at all. please dont' accuse me falsely. if I do have any agenda at all, it's to make models that ppl like and use and to avoid looking like everyone else on my own artwork. (that and the interpretation of the EULA about work from daz models stops me from using them and my innate dislike of seeing things overused ad nausem like the unimesh figures in 99% of poserwork. (don't get me started on how I feel about the galleries and the lack of orginal work there)) so. no agenda here. that understood? I'm debating.

"If you do it -- then do it as a labor of love. Not because you expect to see spectacular sales results." thank you. thats exactly why I do my models. no 'agenda' ... what do I feed one anyway??

If it is derived from the DAZ mesh everything is clear as glass Well, all things considered - it HAS to be derived from the V3 mesh. All clothing is. You need a reference for sizing and proportions and that comes from the mesh somehow (be it a mesh rendered to image planes or simply having the mesh in the editing environment). As such, clothing is ALWAYS a derivative of the mesh, even before joint parameters come into the equation. There really is no way around it either. This is not an issue of copyright, but an issue of EULA. Image planes for clothing creation may be "fair use", but the EULA is alot more restrictive than copyright law. --EK

Khai, as regards my own response to the "agenda" comment, I wasn't thinking of you, but can see why it seemed so, because I then went on to offer my perspective on the DAZ EULA. Sorry if it seemed personal. It's really not.

The poser content market isn't a lot different from any other commercial market. That means to be successful, a figure has to have several ingredients, one of which is support, accessories, call it whatever you like. So, you go to look at the new cars available on the market, and you like the GM Turkey. 'Wow, it's got everything I need! Lots of space, good milage, reliable, looks good. Can I get spares easily?' 'Well, actually, no. Not many garages carry them yet' 'So what if it breaks down? Will they give me money back? A new model?' 'Er... no. That's not in the contract' 'Um.... can I attach a ski-rack to it?' 'Uh... I don't think any one makes them yet...' Right. You get the picture. Poser figures are very rarely rendered completely naked (around these parts anyway). Users want clothes, textures, morphs, shoes, and so on. This is called support, and it's something DAZ gives for every major figure, as part and parcel of the whole deal. And if you don't like the damned thing, you have 30 days to get your money back. Sure, we'd all love to see more figures with lots of support, but it not that easy. I wish it was. competition is great and any attempt to drum it up is laudable. But it's not as simple as saying 'DAZ suck and they're trying to take over the world'. The original post is quite clear about what's needed. If you want support for less-known figures, pledge your financial support for them. Don't waste your time thinking up more tired conspiracy theories about DAZ. It's not in the least bit constructive. mac

Nobody is thinking up "conspiracy theories" (at least not from what I can see). That is the whole point to me joining the discussion. The EULA is in "black & white" (I guess it does depend on you display settings though :P ) and can be read by anyone. I agree that "financial support" is what is required, but so is the need for more open licenses. For example, there is at least one license that forbids "unauthorised enhancements"! --EK

What!!! LMAO

"For example, there is at least one license that forbids "unauthorised enhancements"! " Well, that'c cutting off your nose to spite your face. Which eula has that, BTW? I'd hate to work on something, and then find out I needed approval for it before I could sell it anywhere.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I didn't quite have time to read all of this but I think one reason fo failing support is the catch-22 of need support to get support etc. but another is that to break into the market at a place other than the origin store you are counting on half the sales (give or take) from what I have heard. Sadly, sales drive the market. I know that it takes me about two months of sold work for a product and if I sold 20 copies that would be two months wasted. I could do a half assed thing and get it out but then it would kill the quality name I have been trying to build for years. I know I am kind of slow but I have at least one other job at all times. I am also in debt up to my eyeballs since most of the extra money I make goes to help out my parents. I looked into various other figures. Some were mapped in a way I couldn't do anything with them, some were just not a great seller to begin with but most boiled down to the fact that it wouldn't be a good seller for me since I am having to sell someplace other than the source store.

I do like DAZ items most times. I too HATE the endlessly long pose library. I love Mike 2 and Stephanie. I use them more than anything. I HATE the fact of not as much stuff for them anymore but hey evolution and all :/ my 2 cents ---- hair, shoes, pants for any of the characters. Except for V3 no other chars. anywhere have many practical items liek that :/

Insanity is a waking state...Darkness is a being...Want To Play.........heheheheh

I vote for LaRoo and all of the Sixus figures. Also Apollo, Miki and Micky. I have all of the above figures and almost all of the DAZ figures also. Gives me more options.

$0

I have all the Unimesh figures, plus AM, Elle, Koshini, Kiki, Krystal, Rosy Cheeks Lina, Miki, TK 1&2, Koji and all the free ones. I have Poser editions 4-6 so I have all those people, too. I even have the DAZ Nude Young Woman. OK, so I'm an addict. I would love to see and would definitely buy textue sets for Terai Yuki 2 and CONFORMING clothing for her. Except for a few BATLAB updated items (which I have), almost everything I see for TK2 is dynamic. I'm too impatient and don't have enought time (this is my hobby) to wait for dynamic calculations. I used to think I wanted to see more realistic and less "perfect" female characters but I realized I probably wouldn't buy them because I quit collecting Barbie dolls when they changed the doll from the busty, hippy princess to the flatter, fatter, more "normal" version of today. If allowed, new modules for the UTC that would work on Koji, Miki, TK2, AM, RC Lina, the Poser 5 and Poser 6 people would be fantastic!!! That way we would all be able to maximize both the clothing and textures we already have.

"You need a reference for sizing and proportions and that comes from the mesh somehow (be it a mesh rendered to image planes or simply having the mesh in the editing environment). As such, clothing is ALWAYS a derivative of the mesh, even before joint parameters come into the equation."

Just to say something on this... that's not actually true. You can use your own arms or anything really for sizing and proportions. Clothing need not be modelled aorund the mesh (and sometimes it's better if it's not).

Of course, when it does come to the JPs, then... well... those JPs don't have to be derived from the figure, but they have to be derived from something derived form the figure, anyway.

The DAZ EULA thing is a bit goofy and we didn't really want to get into that, lets a whole can of cans of worms be opened up...

...like questions about how, if DAZ allows and encourages derived works provided they do not compete with the thing derived from, why couldn't Sixus have released that figure that took V3 maps? The mapping of the figure wouldn't have been derived from V3 -- that doesn't even really work without some software that hasn't been written yet [Dodger: "I know this, because I have worked out the algorithms to do figure-to-figure UVW projection, but I haven't figured out how to actually make it work yet, and I haven't seen any others else I probably wouldn't have worked it out"]

Exporting the template won't work really well because with the differences in the meshes, those seams won't always match right even if the lines fit pretty well. You can have a weird 'bend' right at the seam if you go about it that way.

Instead, to get the same mapping and make it work, the figure's UVs need to be derived from a TEXTURE. Sixus could have very simply pointed out that their figure's mapping was derived from the V3 Hi-Res textures -- hi res being necessary to ascertain those seams are as perfect as possible along every poly -- and that the use of their figure did not compete with the sales of the V3 hi-res textures, but rather enhanced those sales by making another figure that could wear them. Seeing as it doesn't contain any V3 in it, it shouldn't even be RTEncoded.

There are even worse questions, like if you use a certain mesh for a foot, are you ripping off V3 or The Dork or Don? (Look at the feet really closely). Like we said, that's neither here nor there.

But for making clothing, depending on what it is, sometimes it's better to make it for NO figure, then fit it to the fiture(s) you want to wear it. You know, just like most real clothing that doesn't come directly from a tailor or fashion designer.

In real life clothes aren't usually tailor-made. In poser they are. (And no, we don't mean that they are all crunchy and have weird looking stretched morphs -- not THAT kind of Tailor made). But they don't have to be, and often shouldn't.

Dodger is as guilty of modelling around a figure as the next, he admits it. However, that is changing since modelling things in ZBrush doesn't lend itself to that approach, but is more fun.

Also there are plenty of conversions out there that were not modelled around a Poser figure, or sometimes around any figure at all. Consider a few conversions of Stormtrooper Armour you may have seen around, many of which find their way back to places like scifi3d.theforce.net (you know, that place that insists you pitch their site in your image (rolls eyes) if you use things they didn't make, only host, and have no copyright on the content thereof anyway, since that's George Lucas's) -- modelled not as conformers, but as standalone figures. Those were certainly never meshed around a dummy of the Dork or Mike.

And make no mistake, the original post as NOT meant as DAZbashing. DAZ makes some really nice stuff.

The point is that it isn't the ONLY place that makes really nice stuff.

It's the same sort of argument as the basic idea that America may be a great, pretty much overall generally kinda free and diverse nation, but that doesn't mean that Australia is a fascistic racist dictatorship. (Dodger wants is to clarify that be believes that Australia, his favourite country, is more diverse and freer than the US, because it has tons of elbow room, lest anything be misinterpreted or misconstrued about the above -- Hell, One Nation was dissolved, so that evil dictatorship thing is not even a potential chance.)

Or to put it simpler, lots of people love hamburger meat (mince, ground beef, ground chuck, whatever). Hamburger is cheap. Hamburger Helper comes in boxes. Hamburger Helper has commercials. Hamburger Helper is easy to use to take your ground beef and turn it into a grammar school lunch that your dog won't even want to eat. Ground beef makes hamburgers. It makes Tacos. It makes sloppy joes. It makes Beef Strokin' off. It makes those weird hamburgerdog things at 7-11 with the cheese inside. It makes salivary steaks. It makes meatloaf. It makes meatballs. It makes vegetarians and Ghandi make faces. It's useful, diverse, easy to find, easy to use, easy to eat, and suffuses the western world.

But just because there are all these nice things to say about hamburger doesn't mean lamb chops with a nice cracked pepper cabernet sauce (or perhaps a mild mint jelly glaze), of which all the above CAN'T be said (except the part about vegetarians), aren't really freakin' good.

Damn I want some lamb chops.

Message edited on: 02/07/2006 22:19

I'm the asshole. You wanna be a shit? You gotta go through ME.

perhaps a look back into history woulld help. How did DAZ get so big and powerful? They burst throu with Victoria...but they did have an in, as they sprang from Zygote which made the first Poser folks. So they had an in and they exploited a hole in the entire thing. Perhaps they were near the forefront in the Poser aftermarket goods store... Posette wasn't such a great piece of eyecandy at the time with the plastic hair, and the plasticclothes...butr Vic was special...morphs and all that...so they got he upper hand with the new line of stuff for Poser. And we all followed along. Well maybe if the next guy that comes out with a figure can pull in a lot of support up front, with the right people, and markert the entire shebang the right way, just maybe they could pull it off. I would think if you started to see a lot of GREAT stuff for James, for instance, and you got the right people to do images witth the stuff, eventually people would start to take notice, and sales would increase. I think there is more interest in alternative figures right now than I have seen for quite some time. Now is the right time to take advantage of this...

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

So, for instance, if we wanted to make a new human figure and garner support dfor it, we'd have to make the Poser 7 figures?

I'm the asshole. You wanna be a shit? You gotta go through ME.

I think you misunderstood what I was talking about, XFX (Dodger, whoever). If you want the clothes to fit the figure IN POSER - you need to use the mesh at somepoint to match "orientation". Unlike real clothes, 3D meshes are not easily folded up, stretched over one's head, etc. To make that nice jumper fit onto V3 - you need to not only get the size about right, but the orientation of her arms, the amount her breasts poke out, etc. The only way around this is by making the clothing dynamic and having the user pose the figure to fit the clothing before starting the simulation (which sorta works, but is incredibly limited). As for Sixus1 Media: DAZ were not up in arms because Lilin 2 could use V3 textures. Hell, if I recall correctly - she didn't. Their problem was that she had similar proportions and the same joint parameters. Casting aside the question of copyrightable joint parameters, the EULA states that they do not allow any similar figures to be created using V3 as a base. Having installed V3, Sixus1 Media had agreed to this (click-thru EULA's... gotta love'em) and hence DAZ had a handle, which they promptly used. As for the UV Mapping idea: I've already worked on two applications that can do this (one stand-alone, the other a plugin in a host application). The problem with copying UV's from one mesh to another is that it still requires the original mesh as a base to work from. If the base mesh is a DAZ one - the user has agreed to the EULA. And they then can stop it from being released. One has to remember the problem is not "copyright" (where "fair use", required compatibility, etc come in), but the EULA. Like it or not, it gives DAZ the right to can anything that has come into contact with their figures in some way. Hell, if you created the jumper by yourself, with completely new JP's, etc but made tweaks after having TESTED it on a DAZ figure - you have just created a derivative that they have veto rights on. They may not choose to exercise these rights (and for most clothing, most likely won't) but the right still exists. The idea of using a texture as a basis for uv-mapping is not a new one, but outside the Poser market is usually discarded due to cost/benefit being out of whack. Any skilled uv-mapper can use a texture or seam-map to align the uv's in the correct spots. With the tools available now in stand-alone & integrated UV Mappers, it is also not that terribly hard (time-consuming, very. Hard, not really). However - outside the Poser market, most artists create their own textures for the models. The uv map tends to be laid out the way it is for a reason and copying another one is quite likely more time-consuming than it would be to paint a new one. Comes from the general tendancy in studios I have worked in to "recreate" models & textures as needed (sure they use a common base mesh, but you'd be surprised at how often they create a new figure only slightly different from the last one!). --EK

Quality and versitility make me buy, not cheap price. The ability to make a product different than everybody else that bought the same product, good UV layout and easy to texture is a HUGE deal, similarly lots of morphs and/or bodyhandles. What figures... ApolloMax. Would like to see: Swat outfit like BillyT's. Everyday scifi and fantasy stuff, SG-1 and Stargate Atlantis. Morphing trenchcoat (see Devil May Cry PS2 game for example). FireFly outfits, work for everyday and scifi. Jedi like stuff, space suits, Matrix stuff (outfit like the Twins from reloaded!) AND the Zion outfits. Uzilite/Wusamah like outfits, high fashion but with morphs included. Zombie set with different textures for different ooze and scaring (hate having my renders look like everybody elses cause they have the same textures). Poser 6 High Res Jessi. All of the morphs sets are for lower res Jessi which kills me, love the body morphs styles but want the high res head morphs (which don't seem to be available. Female clothing that has NOT been done before but similar to the list above for ApolloMax wish list. I don't buy from RMP for various reasons but mainly it's too damn hard to find the gem in all the crap. RMP doesn't have a ApolloMax Clothing section or didn't. When I bought at Daz (I don't any longer), I bought because Daz3d.com has simple search that works, newsletters that have that week's items clearly and easly to see and a front page that screams buy me buy me which got me to impulse buy. 7-8 (sometimes more)products a week the good and bad of that is that it's easy to SEE what's new and impluse buy. No site has that impulse buy that got so much of my money back in the day. I don't buy from PoserPro's because it's just money in Daz's pocket so what's the point. I don't buy from animotions/renderotica cause it's just RMP rehash and hard to navigate. 3DCommune? Alexa fiasco, no trust. I buy direct as much as possible but at 2 weeks to a month per product release at direct sites I may or may not like a product for my needs and buy less, and impule buy even lesser. I don't render naked males, and Anton is only one person to make mix n match high quality products. Male figures don't do as well as the female figures. Only Jessi is in my runtime currently and there is very little to buy. my 2 cents on it all. I have a lot more opinions on the subject but that's enough of a rant from me.

MachineClaw .. So .. if we did do something for Apollo you wouldn't buy it is what you are saying? Since you don't buy from any of the sites out there it really limits things :)

Private sites yet. I have bought from RawnArt's site and PhilC's site for example. I buy at RuntimeDNA however it's so much Aiko now and less and less ApolloMax. What I'm saying is that for my needs is that if a product is so stylized that everybody will recognize it in a render I do "Latest Poser sighting!..." I will be liess likely to buy it now. Unless I can my the product my own in some way. example I rarely buy textures now because so many people have a subscrption to www.3d.sk that the textures look like everybody elses. The Old man textures for poser figures all seem to be from 1 reference set of photos available on 3d.sk. If that makes sence. more and more as time has gone on there is less and less diversity in poser renders because of the conform and render. I know that is a over simplification. When I got into Poser I was into it and impulse bought and spent tons of money. my goal has always been to do my own art, in my style. I am learning more and using more Corel Painter 9 and trying to paint clothing. So now my spending on poser items tends more and more to be items and products that let me get a good starting point and then do "my art". this is not the norm for most poser customers. I hope that makes some sence. I buy and I try my best to support merchants the best I can and do less and less of the impulse hype buying I used to do. I've watched the merchants, stores, and market place, and as time goes on want less and less to do with the poser market place. Particularly due to the some of the same things found in Post #1. I also do not like 50% of my money going to a site and not the merchant. I dont think I'm expressing it well in text. I will buy, but I'm not gunna buy just cause something is made for a poser figure. I will buy based on my needs and if it fits my style....regardless of price, unlike the horde that wants free and dirt cheap items.

RuntimeDNA is also a closed site so not many people can sell there. That is part of my frustration I have had with Apollo. I think I could do something to give him a wider audience but I can't sell him anywhere. I don't really want to make my own site and have to try to add another layer of chaos onto my life. I just try to make quality products that I want to use as well. Sometimes that can be hard.

I'm kind of shocked that this thread is still on topic and nor antiDAZ nor witnessofDAZ has converted it in a war zone. Congrats people! I have buyed almost all poser figures available since V1 but I now use almost only Miki, James and Apollo. Miki is very versatile and has a more girl-next-door-kind-of-body. James, damn, he looks so real in almost every render! And I buy Apollo because of his technology, he is so advanced! Finally as mentioned before if Anton would have released a Venus instead of an Apollo he would be rich buy now. I think right move was to release Venus first and then Apollo.

I think right move was to release Venus first and then Apollo.

Yep.

BTW - I would submit that esoteric discussions revolving around the detailed intricacies of EULA's are of real interest to only a select few. You'll never sell a product to most Joe Blows by saying: "Look at my neat EULA........!" An over-restrictive EULA might kill a product. But the first thing that a potential Poser buyer looks at ain't in the fine print.

The First Thing is the face & the form in the promo images. All of the rest is usually window dressing -- for most buyers.

The majority of Poser users want to render purty pictures -- usually with purty ladies featured prominently front & center in the picture. An intelligent merchant will recognize this natural tendency: and will wisely admit to the fact that it exists -- and will then exploit it for personal gain.

The wise merchant won't engage in attempting to stop the ocean from flowing exactly where it wants to flow. Rather, the wise merchant will note where the flow is going, and then go along with the tide.

If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want. Not what YOU happen to want for them to want. Or what you think that they should want. You must cater to the tastes of the majority of the public. Not to your own tastes, whatever those happen to be. Feed the animals with their natural food. You'll attract them that way.

On the other hand -- attempt to force the issue into some other mold of your own creation: and then you will merely be practicing the art of banging your head repeatedly against an immovable brick wall. Such behavior won't lead to any other result than pain.

Scolding people because they are obsessed with things other than what YOU happen to think that they should be obsessed with -- will go over with the general public just like the proverbial lead ballon. People's tastes are what they are. And you can't change them. You'll either choose to admit to these facts -- and exploit them to your own marketing advantage; or else you'll continue to try to force-feed people with things that they don't want.

It's been tried before. It didn't work then, and it won't work the next time that it's tried, either.

---

People always break into threads like this one, insisting that they never use DAZ figures. shrug That's their choice. More power to 'em.

But the fact remains that V3 -- and character packages/clothing/hair/what-have-you created expressly for V3 outsells all of the rest combined.

Until such time as someone else comes along, and out-V3's V3 (Venus, anyone?) -- we'll eagerly await the arrival of V4.

---

As mentioned earlier -- everyone is welcome to follow after their own tastes as they create their excellent products. It's a free road. But in such a case -- do it for the love of what you do. Not in an attempt to make everyone else over into your own image. They won't go along. And you won't sell much of anything to them. Message edited on: 02/08/2006 01:26

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Well said Xeno. And another thought... why the hell do we need 1400 female figures? Rather then fight the current why not go with the flow, and improve upon what is already out there? You want PAs or content creators to support them give them a copy. Encourage them to support the character. Add on content does MUCH better when at the "home" site. Anton's biggest mistake, was probably falling out with Daz. Had AM been sold at Daz, his spport would most likely be much greater then it is. Also, many PAs work together sharing products, and getting involved in developement. If I need an accessory set for something I'm working on that supports that creator, typically I can get a free copy to encourage developement. I do the same, sharing my product with other developers, to encourage developement and acceptance of my products as well. And in a lot of cases, seing a product in developement allows others to see issues you don't see during developement. or to see additional potential you hadn't thought of yourself. If I created something for AM, I couldn't sell it at RDNA anyway, because they are an invitation only store, and in some cases, that just makes it not worth a creator's time and effort. Anton also was crowing he'd sold over 1000 copies of AM.. I've never sold anywhere near that number of anything, and would be delighted by sales numbers like that! (Especially for the pricepoint!) I'd think that successful number would have locked in Venus developement for sure. Also, your public rep is really important. Slamming other companies, and other vendors because you either dislike them, or feel they have an unfair advantage in competition makes you look petty, and is a turnoff to customers. There are quite a number of creators many people won't buy from simply because of attitude and the way they conduct themselves publically. You can't just play nice for a month, and then go back to your old habits. When you get banned from a number of sites for misconduct, everyone sees and remembers that, regardless of your current nickname.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

RE: RuntimeDNA is also a closed site so not many people can sell there. That is part of my frustration I have had with Apollo. I think I could do something to give him a wider audience but I can't sell him anywhere. I don't really want to make my own site and have to try to add another layer of chaos onto my life. I just try to make quality products that I want to use as well. Sometimes that can be hard. Have you ever tired joining in with another merchant that already has hisher own site?? RA has a site and sells some things for ApolloMax there. Possibly lnk up with RA as Kamilche did with PhilC???? Just a thought here. DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

I think I could do something to give him a wider audience but I can't sell him anywhere. Why not? I don't think Apollo products have to be sold at RDNA?

XENOPHONZ: If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want. I think it would be better to say if you wish to maximize your potential income you should follow the trends. You can sell things without ever being "profitable"... that is to say the amount of time spent is not compensated to your satisfaction. I believe it is possible to be profitable without following the trends but your profit margin will be much lower. and you can do it just because you enjoy it. >Gareee: Anton also was crowing he'd sold over 1000 copies of AM... I'd think that successful number would have locked in Venus development for sure. 1000 does sound like a lot...but then how much time did Anton spend making Apollo? I'm sure Anton knows a female character would be more popular but I suspect (and this is purely speculation on my part) that he made Apollo to "work out he bugs" so Venus would be even better. Id love to use other characters more often but I'm trying to make a comic, I need characters with more than 3 appropriate outfits. Ill use the other figures when I can, but they just dont have enough clothing to be functional as a main character.

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

My opinion: forget the useless and time wasting "crusades" in support of, OR in opposition to any particular iteration of poser figure. i admit that i was a bit Aggressive in my defense of the venerable Mike2 in recent months. but i realized now that there are WAAAYYY better things to do with my precious time besides endlessly debating this subject of " why v3,Daz etc. etc. etc. Just use poser/3D programs to express your ideas pick the figures you like accept their limitaions honestly and live with them or find way to overcome them( wardobe wizard etc.). and make some images/Art. Or spend endless hours,days & weeks trying to alter the poser content market and force other people to provide you with your PERFECT figure.clothing,texture, hair,render engine solution , so you can finally create your ultimate picture /animation Frankly To assert our creativity is somehow restricted because no one has created some "holy grail" poser figure with the elusive perfectly bending elbow to "defeat" V3/DAZ etc., is just a poor excuse for not being a creative artist IMHO. So i dont really accept the premise of the orginal question here: "{ what would it take to break the so called DAZ monopoly etc.}" I humbly suggest that your artistic endeavours should not depend on who is supporting what figure. >>>returning to lurk mode<<<

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I pre-ordered Poser 6 and I would be willing to do the same with a "Venus", if that's what it will take to see her come to fruition. I know of more than one merchant lately that has posted some concept renders to attempt to gauge the market for the product interest. Maybe potential buyers would like to see more?? Cheers DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Well said, Wolf.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

So, for instance, if we wanted to make a new human figure and garner support dfor it, we'd have to make the Poser 7 figures?

That's an idea. Seriously. Especially if Poser 7 and D|S part ways with different weight-based rigging systems. DAZ is not doing a particularly good job of supporting Poser 5 and 6, and I doubt they'll support Poser 7 any better.

If you can't make the Poser 7 figures, perhaps the Zygote open source figures would be good ones to support. DAZ is giving away V3, M3, and Aiko, after all. And part of the appeal of the DAZ figures is all the freebies they have. When the competition is free, cheap may not cut it. At least at first.

I know of more than one merchant lately that has posted some concept renders to attempt to gauge the market for the product interest.
Maybe potential buyers would like to see more??

I'm sure they would, but I have serious doubts about that being an accurate gauge of customer interest. People often say they would buy something, then don't. Even with concept renders.

The first issue with characters is price. A free figure will always beat the price of a for-sale character. Period. End of story. You will not sell a $19.99 figure when V3 and M3 are free. it is a mindless cult. you see Yes it is. How many items has DAZ released that have become the "item of the day": the house mouse, the emotiguy, etc. People see these, download them, and the next week, everyone and their brother makes images with them. Yet the week before, no one even asked for these things. How many times has DAZ released a model that is the same (or very similar) to an existing product... but theirs has less features and is more expensive? Yet which product do people buy? Yep- the DAZ one... usually because the name "DAZ" implies that the product will be excellent. If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want This is a subject for a different thread. What do people want? If you go by the list of best-selling products, people obviously want V3 characters. If you go by the "wishlist", people want all kinds of items... but will those "wishers" actually purchase the item when you sell it? --John

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

This thread isn't about Anton. The question was what figure to support that is not a Daz figure.

Re:The question was what figure to support that is not a Daz figure. Miki Why, Female, Ethnic Features for real, already gaining some support. DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Deecey >> Why not? I don't think Apollo products have to be sold at RDNA? They don't have to be sold there but if you sell it outside of the source store (except for maybe the DAZ main things) you are cutting your sales in half. I think that is why there are only a few products for him outside of RDNA. People try it and go back to where the money is. The only thing that appears to have more than one item created by a seller is poses (which, if you are good at them, only take a few minutes to do). There is one merchant that did a few things but he is one of the few and he is also really quick. He also just did them to test the market and shake things up a bit. He also has his own store and all the things that entails (headaches and benefits).

IMO DAZ su*ks for many things, but preventing others to cash in on V3s popularity is not one of them.

If you cant be bothered with encoding even though you used V3s UVs and joints, then either go to a court and fight their EULA or create something that only relies on its own quality to build support for it.

If you are into Poser for maximum profit, study the market first and give the people what THEY want, not what YOU want.
Dont blame others for not wanting to join you on a sinking ship.
Customers dont owe merchants any kind of support.
If you get it, great, but you cant demand it.

Finally, if youre not happy with what DAZ or anybody else sells, break out a modeller, Poser magnets or the joint editor, and learn to fix it yourself.

Remember: Poser is bigger than all of us. ^-^

stahlratte

People try it and go back to where the money is. But that can be said of any non-DAZ figure, not just Apollo. I don't think the issue is whether or not it is sold at one store or another ... the issue is time invested vs. returns. And the returns will largely be based on the number of copies the original figure has sold. Which is why I mentioned earlier that Apollo Max Compact comes with "Practical Poser 6", so that will put him in the hands of a ton more people.

As much as every merchant hates to hear this, good quality at cheap prices entices me to purchase a product. I know everybody has to make a living, but every customer also only has so much money to purchase poser products and relatively few of those customers will ever see any income coming back from their Poser artwork. If something is inexpensive and may be something I'll use in the future, I'll buy it. If it's expensive, I'll hold off till I need it. One of the marketing things DAZ does well is frequent sales and coupons that help drop the price of products to a price range I'm willing to pay. No other marketplace does that. RMP doesn't give more than a generic 10% off and sales by various merchants. RDNA has the half off Christmas sale, but even there the prices are still generally higher than I want to pay. I have a lot of content for Poser, that I've either bought or downloaded as freebies over the years, that I've never used in any artwork. I'm reluctant to spend a lot for anything that I only might use. I tend to stick to the larger marketplaces because there's only so much time I can spend looking for stuff to buy. There are about a half dozen sites I look at once a week and a few more that I'll check into less often than that. Regular freebies sometimes entice me to look at other sites, but it's much easier for a large store to provide that attraction than for a small personally run website. Smaller Poser content creators have to align themselves to the larger stores to increase their visibility. I have no obligation to visit a hundred Poser sites every week. Do we really need other human figures? This may sound simplistic, but isn't a mesh something that can be deformed to look very differently than the mesh's original form? Just because there hasn't been a great oriental version of V3 doesn't mean that one can't be made. It's just a matter of making a better morph. It's going to be hard for anybody to create a new human figure that will wrestle away the level of popularity that the DAZ Millennium figures have. Let's keep in mind that M3 and V3 have considerably more support than David or Stephanie, let alone the Young Teens or PreSchoolers or Freak or SheFreak. Try to find any products for the old PreSchool Boy. I'm not arguing quality or anything as much as simple popularity. Mayadoll is probably the best supported figure outside of DAZ, but stuff for her is getting harder to find each year. As an artist, I already have human figures that have the capacity to look like many different other figures. It's hard to sell me a new human figure unless it does something remarkably different than what I already have and will result in significantly better renders and significantly less time to pose realistically. The chicken or the egg problem with clothing still exists even if a new figure does start giving me those time-saving and better rendering advantages. The trick then is going to be how to convince me that it's worth making me part with my hard-earned money for a new figure.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

Everything wolf359 said, but with a ! thrown on the end.

If all Poser markets closed down this second, I already have enough usable content and software (which comparatively probably isn't a lot) to continue creating art for the rest of my life. And ... probably much more time to strive for a masterpiece or two.

Yes it is. How many items has DAZ released that have become the "item of the day": the house mouse, the emotiguy, etc. People see these, download them, and the next week, everyone and their brother makes images with them. Yet the week before, no one even asked for these things.

They're often free or very cheap, though. Emotiguy was free. I got the House Mouse free as well. I wouldn't have paid money for either of them.

DAZ has had some clunkers, so the DAZ name is not enough in and of itself.

How many times has DAZ released a model that is the same (or very similar) to an existing product... but theirs has less features and is more expensive? Yet which product do people buy? Yep- the DAZ one... usually because the name "DAZ" implies that the product will be excellent.

I don't think that's quite true. The "list price" may be "more expensive," but DAZ is extremely competitive. If there is a similar figure for a lower price out there, they do something to lower the price on theirs. Coupons, vouchers, sales, freebies, whatever. I suspect few regular customers pay the list price at DAZ.

Wow, what a lot of debate! And to think when I read the initial post my first thought was "what is he/she talking about?" I remembered seeing lots of stuff for MayaDoll and AnimeDoll here and at Studio Maya. Pretty well supported, I'd say. Laroo seems to have TONS of support over at RDNA. But strangely, not anywhere else. I think Laroo 2 is probably the best looking toon figure. The LE version even ships in the box with P6. Yet nobody outside RDNA seems to support her - I hardly ever see Laroo freebies popping up here. She is well supported over there, though. Do DAZ-brokered artists count as DAZ? 3DUniverse's Stacy figure is another one I'd say is pretty well supported, even if you have to dig around a little. I also see some healthy support for the Sixus figures, including 3rd party support. It's tempting to compare Apollo to V3/M3 but remember, Apollo is a NEWBORN compared to those two. V3 did not spring fully formed from DAZ's forehead. Part of her success is her ability to capitalize on DAZ's existing product base of V1 and V2 users. It might be more fair to compare Apollo V1 to Victoria V1. Then again, Vicki 1 was entering an uncrowded market and had all that potential revenue and 3rd party focus to herself. Anyone coming into the game now has a lot more competition for the pool of Poser dollars, though thankfully the pool has grown larger as well. I'd say it's a bit over-dramatic to say that the Poser community has a cult-like devotion to DAZ. Clearly there is room for a variety of content - lots of niches in the ecosystem, if you will - and although DAZ currently occupies the coveted "most popular" spot that doesn't make their customers cultists. DAZ's web presence and marketing machine are assets at least as important as their 3D content. They are the Wal-Mart or the Home Depot of the Poser world. I don't go to Home Depot because I'm a member of the Home Depot cult, even though I frequently buy items on impulse while there. I go there because I know they are likely to have what I need, and that I'm likely to see other things that might interest me, and because it's CONVENIENT. DAZ can offer this kind of convenience, while multiple small merchants can't, no matter what the quality of their products. Perhaps if they banded together under some kind of shared branding/marketing arrangement... some sort of Content Eden or Content Heaven or something. ;-) - Jimdoria ~@>@

• Jimdoria  ~@>@

RE:Yes it is. How many items has DAZ released that have become the "item of the day": the house mouse, the emotiguy, etc. People see these, download them, and the next week, everyone and their brother makes images with them. Yet the week before, no one even asked for these things. They're often free or very cheap, though. Emotiguy was free. I got the House Mouse free as well. I wouldn't have paid money for either of them. And a good thing they were very inexpensive, because in yet another Week or Two they have faded into oblivion. Seems like the Hype of the Latest and Greatest is what fuels the buying frenzy. I frequently wonder exactly How many actually put down the cold hard cash or simply join in the Forums hype?? Cheers DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

As for why new figures. A morph for a figure will not always fix something that is glaringly wrong with the joint setups. If one fixes a model in the setup room then clothing doesn't work. So people keep looking for newer models that overcome limitations in older or current models. example is make V3 sit in a sitting pose with her arm bent and scratching her head. elbow bend problem and thigh problems for the legs. A few months after ApolloMax came out and hype started building up Daz put David in the PClub for $1.99. It's hard for merchants to compete against Daz especially now that they own PoserPros. The Aeon figures at PoserPros support the V3/M3 unimesh and that creates more support for Daz figures. I'm not bashing Daz. It's just how the market is currently. I think in the following year efrontier has a real chance to put an impact with Content Paradise. With partnering with other stores if they also add direct brokering well that will put another avenue for poser merchants.

RE: Home Depot analogy -I go there because I know they are likely to have what I need, and that I'm likely to see other things that might interest me, and because it's CONVENIENT. Interesting, I frequently find that i can go to my favorite AceTrue Value and find what the Big Box Store doesn't have. Similar results with poser items as well. I think that 30% off introduction price really plays on many customers heads. Almost makes them feel guilty for not buying the item. Thinking I may want this later on and I would feel bad paying Full price. So on the off chance that I may want it later, I will buy it now and save. That same Big Box store tends to drive the little guys out of business by easily cutting prices below what the Ma & Pa store can afford to sell at. DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

And a good thing they were very inexpensive, because in yet another Week or Two they have faded into oblivion.
Seems like the Hype of the Latest and Greatest is what fuels the buying frenzy.

I wouldn't call Emotiguy a "buying frenzy." I bet most people didn't buy anything for him. I know I didn't. (Though I loved the freebies people made for him.)

They did post a lot of images, but I think that's because he's a toon character. People lower their standards a bit when they're posting humorous images. They don't spend two weeks messing with the lighting and the pose, then still worry it's not good enough. It may seem like suddenly everyone's obsessed with Emotiguy, but how much time and money are they really spending?

I think that 30% off introduction price really plays on many customers heads. Almost makes them feel guilty for not buying the item. Thinking I may want this later on and I would feel bad paying Full price. So on the off chance that I may want it later, I will buy it now and save.

Not me. At this point, I've come to realize that there will always be another sale at DAZ. And that you can get it for as much as 50% off, or even free, if you wait.

I suspect I'm not the only one, because DAZ keeps offering better deals. These days, many of their products are introduced at 70% off or more. (The toonimal elephant, the new MilBaby, the toon penguin, etc.) I would not have bought Nybras at 30% off. But for $1.40? Why not?

it is a mindless cult. you see
Yes it is. How many items has DAZ released that have become the "item of the day": the house mouse, the emotiguy, etc. People see these, download them, and the next week, everyone and their brother makes images with them. Yet the week before, no one even asked for these things.

Where this line of argument falls down is over the fact that all of the DAZ 'also-ran' figures which you've listed here are -- ALL of them -- largely flashes in the pan. They are released; and then a fair number of people download them & toss out a quick succession of renders. For a few days/weeks. And then, after the initial excitement is over -- these 'also-ran' characters largely disappear from the Poserverse radar screen. It even happened to the much-ballyhooed (at the time) GIRL figure.

V3 is still there. She's always still there.

If you want to best V3, then you've got to do what V3 does. Only better. Even when one factors in the caveat of the 'free vs. $19.99' aspect of things -- most people who want something will pay for it. And if a 'better V3' comes along for $19.99 -- then I don't think that the hypothetical 'better V3' will have any problems finding a market. Simply because she would be what most of us want to see in our runtimes.

Not Apollo -- Venus.

Miki has a chance at being a successful figure. Because Miki pretty much follows the rule.

Whereas Dina sort-of failed, because Dina didn't follow the rule.

@ stahlratte - that render is tempting me.............

If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want
This is a subject for a different thread.

Oh? Is it?

I don't think so......

What do people want? If you go by the list of best-selling products, people obviously want V3 characters. If you go by the "wishlist", people want all kinds of items... but will those "wishers" actually purchase the item when you sell it?

As you, yourself have unintentionally implied here: you can either choose to go along with wishes -- or else you can choose to go along with hard market realities.

It's all bound up in a (potential/wishful) merchant's choice.

Does a merchant want to make money at this; or does a merchant want to suffer for the sake of his art?

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

A fad is not a cult. :-)

Very true.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

But that can be said of any non-DAZ figure, not just Apollo. I don't think the issue is whether or not it is sold at one store or another ... the issue is time invested vs. returns. And the returns will largely be based on the number of copies the original figure has sold. Which is why I mentioned earlier that Apollo Max Compact comes with "Practical Poser 6", so that will put him in the hands of a ton more people. True ... But if someone sold something for Apollo at RuntimeDNA and at Renderosity the Runtime one would sell probably around twice as much even though it was the same price. Same item, same price ... whole lot more sales at the origin store.That is just what I have heard from merchants who sell at more stores than I do.

Personally I don't like the look of Miki, but I do like terai Yuki and would love to see some more stuff for her available. I also have to put in another vote for both the P4 and P5 figures. Dork and Posette (which I still use quite a bit) are the only default Poser figures that ever got any real support, and I really think that the P5 and 6 figures should as well. I have to admit I have all the milennium figures except Hiro, but only paid full price for 1 of them - Mike 3. I got SP and the freak free as part of the promotion when M3 first came out, I got the girl as part of the PC bonus coupon, V3 when sh became free, and David when he was put in the PC. Well,I also paid full price for the reduced res V3 and M3.

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

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If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want.

BTW - as an aside, this rule is a fact of life which Hollywood used to understand. But these days, the movie moguls have forgotten it in exchange for obsessively stroking their own egos.

And now, Hollywood producer-types are debating among themselves over the deep mystery of why box-office receipts have been plummeting so badly in recent years. Their conclusions usually have something to do with ancillary issues such as DVD sales, piracy, or cable TV. No -- their over-inflated egos won't permit any of them to acknowledge the presence of the elephant in the room. Namely: that they aren't supplying the movie-going public with stuff that the largest segment of the public actually wants to go out and pay their hard-earned money to see. No.....instead they want to attempt to force-feed us with subject matter that most of us have no taste for, and don't want. Whether it's social issues, or left-leaning "message" movies.

Until such time as Hollywood re-learns what it used to know, then they'll continue to suffer financially for the sake of their......"art".

In the meantime, the few Star-Wars type blockbusters that the movie industry chooses to reluctantly offer to the uneducated, unenlightened redneck hoi-polloi will help to carry the financial water for those far-more-important "message" movies that no one actually goes to see. Or sees in very small numbers.

---

Ancillary matters like EULA's and store merchant policies have little to do with selling anything to the Poser public.

Giving 'em what they actually want to buy is about 98% of the equation.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Let me see if I can take a stab at this thread. My history of selling products for poser started just before renderosity had a store of it's own. I sold at bbay.com. When renderosity got it's store installed, I was one of the first merchants. I then teamed up with Dendras and opened beyondbent.com and he and I sold our products on our own, one of the independant merchants. I think PhilC had his own store too and a couple of others. Renderotica came into being and opened it's own store, I sold several of my more "adult" props and sets there. I hooked up with Daz last year or the year before and started selling my sci-fi stuff there. I now have been migrating my daz products over to seekergamingsystems.com. I'm going to be honest, I'm an independant merchant at heart, and my products are top quality, I know this because I get good feedback and rarely any negative comments or technical issues. I KNOW people want my stuff. Here's the blow... when I released my S.F.C.S. construction set at my own website, I sold maybe 40-50 of them over a six month period. I am now nearing my 600th sale of the same set at DAZ. Daz also gets 50% of the sales, and mind you, they are EXCLUSIVE to daz. I tend to be a person who does things on principal and as the person who does 100% of the work on a product, giving somebody else 50% for an exclusive item BITES, even if I make more money with them than selling on my own. I was more personally satisfied when I was independant. But as the thread asks, how can independant merchants who have excellent products do better? I think perhaps it's because there are too many independants and we are not unified in any way other than cross links, site links, and word of mouth, not to mention making a post in the forums about new products which quickly hit the second page and get burried. We independants tend to hit a market of followers who faithfully buy our products (THANK YOU!), but we don't reach a vast majority of people looking for our products. I had thought a while back that a specific website that is dedicated to being an independant merchant catalog site would be a neat idea. Independant merchants could set up an account there and be allowed to post thumbnails of their products, which would link back to their own website where transactions could take place and people can get larger images and views of their products. If any independant merchants would like to discuss something like this, please let me know and we could have a round-table discussion about it and discuss the possibilities. Cheers, Davo

I think the problem with movies these days is that they are trying too hard to "give us what we want." There's no originality. They're playing it safe. Big name stars, expensive special effects, lots of sequels to previous movies or TV shows. They are even making sequels to movies and TV shows that were never much good to begin with. When there is something fresh and original, it does well. Then every studio tries to turn out a movie just like it, and it rarely works.

There are still lots of good stories to be made, but it's become a lot harder to get them made. Not because producers are too busy stroking their own egos, but because they're too busy counting beans. Movies have become so expensive they're afraid to fail. So they play it safe.

It's the same with publishing. The midlist has disappeared. You have a few blockbuster authors like Stephen King or J.K. Rowling, and a bunch of no-name new authors, and very little in between. In that past, the midlist was a publisher's bread and butter. No more. As a friend of mine in the business put it, publishers now demand a manuscript that is "new and original, and exactly like last year's bestseller."

I think the problem with movies these days is that they are trying too hard to "give us what we want." There's no originality. They're playing it safe. Big name stars, expensive special effects, lots of sequels to previous movies or TV shows. They are even making sequels to movies and TV shows that were never much good to begin with. When there is something fresh and original, it does well. Then every studio tries to turn out a movie just like it, and it rarely works.

Check out the Oscar selections for this past year. All of the movies that are up for "best picture" -- ALL of them -- are "message movies". With niche appeal at best.

The Oscars are a good indicator of what Hollywood thinks is important. But the Box Office is pretty much the only empirical indicator of what the public actually thinks is important.

Sure, you've always got B-movies to factor into the equation. Hollywood used to churn out 1000's of also-ran B-movies back during the Hollywood Golden Age. Those old B-movies didn't typically do very well at the box office, either.

But there is an absolutely crucial difference between then and now. Back then, the major movies -- the movies that Hollywood pushed at the Oscars, et al -- fell in line with public tastes. Even the old B-movies did this. By contrast, the current crop of "pushed" movies run contrary to generally accepted public tastes.

BTW -- in a way, this point represents topic drift -- but it isn't topic drift in regards to the central debate of this thread.

Do you sell what actually sells, or do you prefer to go for your own ideas about what ought to sell? Message edited on: 02/08/2006 14:08

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

If your goal is to sell things -- then give the people what they want. Actually, giving people what they need is a better approach. An astute seller can predict what's needed before the public knows they want it (or at least convince them that they need something they didn't know they wanted). There are pathfinders and path followers and the first one makes the most money. The follower just has an easier time convincing somebody else that it's worth taking that same road to get funding. Using the movie analogy, "Star Wars" was by no means an easy sell. Watch the documentary that came with the original trilogy of films or check out one of the books on the making of the first movie. The most successful science fiction movie, prior to "Star Wars" was "2001" and that only made around $20 million from an initial $10 million cost (I'm too lazy to look up the exact figures right now, so feel free to correct them) at the time "Star Wars" was being planned. From any practical standpoint, nobody involved in "Star Wars" expected to top the most successful scifi movie up to that point in time. The only way "Star Wars" got its initial run was for theaters to take it with another movie that Fox expected to be the big film of the year. At that point in time, science fiction was a niche movie genre that wasn't a major moneymaking field unless it was very low budget. "Star Wars" by no means was something the mainstream public was craving to see. Nor was the public anxiously awaiting to see a movie based on old serials, but "Raiders of the Lost Ark" became another blockbuster. It wasn't an easy sell pushing a comedy about a bigot on TV, but Norman Lear succeeded with "All in the Family". You can essentially take any trend and find the seminal moment when a creative talent put something out to the public that it wasn't expecting and did it well enough that the public craved more. There are a lot of less creative folks at the tail end of a trend that lose their shirts when the public finds something else they'd rather have and somebody new is giving it to them. Although some of the same principles apply to Poser content, the other difficult thing to get past is marketing. Movies and TV shows have high visibility and buzz before they come out. I'm always amazed when I see a paid commercial for something like the last "Star Wars" and "Lord of the Rings" movies because the money didn't have to be spent. There was better free publicity for those films on TV news, entertainment, and talk shows, the net, and everywhere else. Poser is a much smaller area of interest and even the biggest Poser events go comparatively unnoticed by users who aren't wired into one of the forums. Creating that new must-have Poser content is only half the battle--marketing it successfully is that larger part of getting it sold. I can sympathize with Davo (post 120) when he has to let DAZ keep 50% of his sales earnings at their site, but he sold more than ten times as many copies as he sold on his site and made five times as much money even after letting DAZ keep half of what was sold. As much as it eats at the soul to let an outside entity profit from one's creative endeavors, that's basically the way it is everywhere from movies to books to selling physical goods. There are agents, publishers, and distributors taking a cut from the artist's creative wares. At least most Poser content providers get to keep the rights to their works unless they sell them outright to somebody. Try to find a CD where the singer retains the copyright. It's a shame that creative talents have to give money to businessmen that sell their products, but it's not an unusual practice and, in most creative venues, keeping 50% is very good. [this site shows a CD royalties rate of 16%, http://www.ascap.com/musicbiz/money-recording.html and here's one showing 10% royalties for a book, http://www.llumina.com/royalty.htm] Getting 50% at DAZ doesn't so so onerous anymore. Whatever anybody wants to say about DAZ, they're out there trying to increase the Poser market. The more Poser/DAZStudio users there are, the more products will be sold and there will be more content. DAZ has sunk hundreds of thousands of dollars into providing a free posing/rendering program to entice new users. I can't recall seeing any other company trying to increase the market awareness for Poser content to that degree. I'm stunned when I occasionally read posts here about how that's a horrible thing. I know that DAZ is doing it to increase their sales, but I can't imagine that any content provider would consider introducing new artists to Poser as being a bad thing.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

"Whatever anybody wants to say about DAZ, they're out there trying to increase the Poser market." Long time users of Poser and know about Daz know they sell Poser related items. However now that Daz Studio is out there have been several articles in magazines and none of the magazines list anything about Poser, they say things like Daz3D's free Daz Studio program and uses content sold at Daz3D.com. No Poser listing. The online store and product descriptions do not list the items as Poser items, the specific products that are for Daz Studio have a "requires Daz Studio". Rare brokered items list requires Poser 5 or Poser 6 in the descriptions. okay so why am I going on and on. Well Daz3D adversiting and various posts have said that they are "trying to increase the poser community" There is no link to efrontier and they do not sell Poser at the site. Daz is about selling there figures and content for those figures as well as other content. Daz is not about building the community, Daz is about building on Daz as they should be as a business. one of the questions in post #1 was what abotu other stores. efrontier has links to other stores, renderosity, runtimedna etc, and content paradise partnerships for selling items. If a merchant wants more exposure hooking up with efrontier either as a link or a partnered merchant will give you more exposure at the site that sells Poser. the people in the various forums are a very small (yet vocal most of the time) part of the poser community and purchase items. If you really want more exposure hooking up and riding on the coat tail of efrontier or brokering at rendersoty and making sure that it's listed at content paraside will let you get more exposure. then again my Magic 8 Ball just told me "Outlook not so good" so what do I know.

Re:If you really want more exposure hooking up and riding on the coat tail of efrontier or brokering at rendersoty and making sure that it's listed at content paraside will let you get more exposure. I have no idea what sort of a percentage ContentParadise takes. I do know that as a customer it now makes it easier , for me atleast, to search through many merchants offerings from a single location. R'oisty is my 2nd choice lately. Mainly I guess because I can go through much of what's offered at CP. I agree with the "making sure that it's listed at CP. Passport members are now starting to gain a few benifits at CP. That $5.00 Coupon can be spent on any item. DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Anyone who knows my work knows I use the K-Family almost exclusively. Between Lady Little Fox and Wardrobe Wizard, I feel the bases are all pretty well covered. Still, if something new comes up for Ichiro 1 or 2, I'm usually first in line with my wallet out, so remember that, okay? :) But if I had to nominate a non-supported mesh in serious need of it, it'd be the P6guy (You're right, BTW: he's a damn impressive piece of work, and fer cryin' out loud, he comes with the program -- you dont get much freer than that, folks).

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

'I can sympathize with Davo (post 120) when he has to let DAZ keep 50% of his sales earnings at their site' It's a bit OT for this topic, but I don't sympathise with davo at all. Let me be clear about this. I sell through DAZ too, and they take 50% of my earnings, so I'm in the same boat. But for that 50%, DAZ do all the things I don't want to do, like marketing, accounting and all that boring stuff. Not to mention having a large customer base which is growing steadily. Sure, it would be wonderful if artists didn't need businesmen, but they do, and as an artist, all I can do is get the best deal going. Other sites may take slightly less, but they have nowhere near the same sales potential as DAZ. A few people - PhilC, etc - have their own sites, and I wish them luck, but I couldn't be bothered dealing with that side of it, and very few people are well enough known to do that. I've been with DAZ for 4 years and have no complaints. Davo has a point, but in the end, he sells far more through DAZ, and that's the bottom line. Re DAZ and daz studio - Of course they're trying to increase their own market. Only an idiot would believe otherwise. But what's wrong with that? Does anyone think EF started up CP for the benefit of humanity? They take their cut, promote their program, and good luck to them too. It may be nice for the customer to believe that the poser market is a fluffly little community of art lovers. It's even true up to a point. But if customers want easy access to high-quality products at ridiculously low prices, they must also accept that there's a business side to poser. Business by it's very nature is based on competition. And that sometimes leads to resentment, accusations, and all the other stuff we see popping up from time to time. The best thing we can do is try to keep our emotions in check and act like grown-ups. (Not directed at any posters in this thread - just general advice) mac

"Davo has a point, but in the end, he sells far more through DAZ, and that's the bottom line." Regardless of the monetary bottom line, that line isn't necessarily the absolute bottom. Okay, let's consider... What if, for purposes of hypotheticality, there were a company come along that, with loads of funding, managed to drive DAZ out of business and become the only fish around. What if they made merchants feel at home, comfortable, certain, and with heavy marketing and an instant brilliant quality reputation managed to outshine everyone else for long enough to get all the attention and most of the money... a store and brokerage on the same model as DAZ and a few other sites. Every merchant who sold their made twenty time what they would make anywhere else. Now, what if this company then issued a decree that all of their merchants were required to call their representative contact "Sir" or "Ma'am" at all times in conversation. Further, every Thursday they had to appear on webcam wearing a dog collar and play out the "may I have another" scene to the best of their ability. Then add to that they they pick and choose among your stuff, and if they really like an idea, rather than brokering it, they'd hire someone else to make it cheaper and buy it from the other merchant outright. You become an idea mill, and only 1 in 5 things make it in, and never the best ones. Further, the testing proces gets held up on those products for weeks on end while the other contractor finishes their up and releases so when it's finally rejected it looks like you copied the idea, and no one is the wiser. Five or ten merchants, however, are treated as the teacher's pet and such things are never done to them, so there will always be people to shout out how great they are. That would be a hell of a business plan, especially because those 1 in 5 products that make it through would still make 20 times the sales, and the creators would thus be somewhat in thrall. Nobody does that stuff right now, not even anything like it... but if they did, where would that bottom line be? Now consider that being in a state where you totally rely on someone else... of course nothing would ever get that extreme, but even just part of the above as a possibility is scary. The sales figures are not the bottom line. Independence is the bottom line. Being able to do it yourself and at least get by. Because, to be completely honest, if it came to it, any one of us doing this stuff for a living could go put up a resume on monster and get something that makes more money. If the almighty dollar were the real bottom line, none of us would be doing this. No one but the few big companies that make all the money, anyway. Davo: We'd like to discuss the possibilities, and we have a server. We'd also like to discuss some other possibilities, about maybe setting up a whole different way to do this stuff. Maybe a way to sell without a percentage of sales being charged, even.

I'm the asshole. You wanna be a shit? You gotta go through ME.

@ Maclean: My intention is not to bring down Daz and stomp them out of existance, but focus on ways to bring better light to independant merchants who do not mind doing all the work you would rather not do yourself. @ XFX3D: seekergamingsystems.com and I talked about this thread at lenght this afternoon and would welcome a discussion on setting up some kind of ways and means to bring independants to light.

Actually, giving people what they need is a better approach.

shrug The marketplace is littered with the bodies of thoughtful merchants who "just knew" exactly what all of us out here "needed".

An astute seller can predict what's needed before the public knows they want it (or at least convince them that they need something they didn't know they wanted). There are pathfinders and path followers and the first one makes the most money. The follower just has an easier time convincing somebody else that it's worth taking that same road to get funding.

An astute seller just happens to be in the right place at the right time. That's how they earn the title of "astute". In reality, none of them "know" in advance that their product is going to be a sure-fire winner. They can only hope.

Once in a while, someone just happens to shoot with a golden B-B. For those that do: it can be a wonderful experience.

But for the 99.99% of people who have something that they would like to sell to the public -- the best plan is to go with what works. Because it works.

shrug On the other hand -- there's always the old argument of 'nothing ventured, nothing gained'.

But not even Bill Gates had the vaugest concept of what DOS would do for him down the road. After a certain point, the whole thing took on a life of its own -- a life which was largely out of his control.

One should keep in mind that for every Bill Gates success story, there are 100's of 1000's of "Bill Jones's" with an idea that never got off of the ground in the first place. They tried -- and they failed. Miserably in many cases. ONE GUY made it to the top.

You can always strive for the elusive brass ring. But watch out -- it can be an awfully hard blow when somebody else grabs it instead of you.

Using the movie analogy, "Star Wars" was by no means an easy sell. Watch the documentary that came with the original trilogy of films or check out one of the books on the making of the first movie. The most successful science fiction movie, prior to "Star Wars" was "2001" and that only made around $20 million from an initial $10 million cost (I'm too lazy to look up the exact figures right now, so feel free to correct them) at the time "Star Wars" was being planned. From any practical standpoint, nobody involved in "Star Wars" expected to top the most successful scifi movie up to that point in time. The only way "Star Wars" got its initial run was for theaters to take it with another movie that Fox expected to be the big film of the year. At that point in time, science fiction was a niche movie genre that wasn't a major moneymaking field unless it was very low budget. "Star Wars" by no means was something the mainstream public was craving to see. Nor was the public anxiously awaiting to see a movie based on old serials, but "Raiders of the Lost Ark" became another blockbuster. It wasn't an easy sell pushing a comedy about a bigot on TV, but Norman Lear succeeded with "All in the Family".

You seem to be implying that there weren't any successful sci-fi movies or TV shows prior to Star Wars. No 2001 A Space Odyssey, no Logan's Run, no Silent Running, no Forbidden Planet, no Star Trek/Lost in Space/Twilight Zone TV series......I could go on and on.

Sure, sci-fi wasn't a particularly respected genre at that time. And as far as the Oscars are concerned: it still isn't respected to this day (nor is the horror genre). But sci-fi was clearly capable of being a commercial success. After all, this had already been demonstrated repeatedly by the mid-1970's. So the success of Star Wars wasn't quite the total out-of-the-blue shot in the dark that you are making it out to be. It's just that -- like Bill Gate's DOS -- no one involved in the project at the time had any concept of just how HUGE the franchise would ultimately end up proving to be.

The general public wanted sci-fi movies. They'd already demonstrated that by the time that Star Wars appeared on the horizon.

As for adventure movies, et al -- hit movies of that genre had already popped up many times in the past, too. Not with the numbers of Raiders, but big hits nonetheless. So the public had previously demonstrated an appetite for that genre, too.

As for Archie Bunk(er) -- the character was a product of his times. I feel safe in submitting that All in the Family wouldn't fly very far today, were it to be offered up as a new show. CSI does. Lost does. And 24 does. But all of those shows are a very, very long way from Archie Bunk and the rest of his ilk that were so popular back in 1971.

Nope -- nowadays, actors like Rush Limbaugh are getting the lion's share of the attention. Not Norman Lear -- except within the body of individuals that happen to be of his ideological bent already.

The times, they have a'changed.

You can essentially take any trend and find the seminal moment when a creative talent put something out to the public that it wasn't expecting and did it well enough that the public craved more. There are a lot of less creative folks at the tail end of a trend that lose their shirts when the public finds something else they'd rather have and somebody new is giving it to them.

Chicken or the egg?

Once again -- the Golden BB effect can be a wonderful thing. But it's a crap shoot. Not a sure thing. Never a sure thing. No matter how "creative" the persons behind it happen to be. The creative artist is still at the mercy of the fickle public.

But speaking of fickle.......

Throughout all of human history, V3 has never once gone out of style yet -- if you know what I mean.

So, I'd say that V3 -- and others like her -- are a pretty safe bet.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

XFX3d and davo, Just to be perfectly clear about this, I'm not dissing davo, and I know he wasn't taking a shot at DAZ either. The topic of his post was a real life situation and that's what my reply addressed. Surreal scenarios about merchants wearing dog collars just don't come into it. We're talking reality here. The 'bottom line' I described was the financial gain in davo's case. It is NOT necessarily the bottom line for him, me or anyone else. I do this for a living, but if I didn't enjoy it, I'd go back to being a photographer. If I didn't care about the quality of my products, I wouldn't spend an average of 3 months on each one, tweaking, testing and improving them. And finally, if I was chasing the dollar, I wouldn't make houses and furniture - I'd be in the nekkid warrior and temple market. But XFX3d is 100% correct about merchants not knowing what will sell. Nobody can say for certain. If we knew what would make a guaranteed top-seller, we'd all be doing it, and there would be no variety at all in poser content. The simple truth is that most merchants make what they enjoy doing, whether it be clothes, characters, environments or aardvarks. I seriously doubt any poser merchant slogs away at stuff he loathes just to make a buck. It would be far more profitable to move into other areas of 3d or graphic arts. The fact is that most poser content is grossly underpriced for the amount of work involved, and let's not forget it. I think a site of independent merchants would be an excellent idea. Despite being loyal to DAZ (up to a point), I always see competition as a good thing. If DAZ stay at the top too long without any threat, they'll become complacent. So the more alternatives there are, the better. mac

Something else I thought of the other day, is that the poser market is no different then any other. Think of sodas... what brands do you think o ffirst? Coke and Pepsi... and then everyone else. Think of cameras... 2 or 3 brands pop in riht away, tand then there are "the rest". Cars?? same thing. Almost every market you can think of is dominated by a handful for BIG entities, and then there are "the rest".

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

First off, I bought WW this weekend because I'm sick of buying one-off clothes for every figure I own, and because most of what I can get free is for V3, a model I paid full retail for and have never, ever used. (I used Steph and Steph Petite till Judy came along, then added her. Rarely used Barbie... er, Vickie 2, either.) I have bought clothes and props for Jessi, which is my main model, and I would buy stuff for the other P6 guys. (Did anyone ever make anything for a P5 child? Ever?) I bought AM the moment it was released, and I expect I will use it eventually, but not yet. Miki on release and I buy stuff for her and use her. I'd have bought Koji if ef had priced him better. Still might one of these days. I have a few Aeon critters that haven't gotten much use, but I bought them for the same reason I bought WW, to leverage my other DAZ investments. And yes, I would pre-order Venus on the strength of AM. That said, I have spent at most $20 at DAZ in the last year since letting my PC expire. They don't give people what they want or need; they sell wanting. How many of you "wanted" a bunch of hokey "Dragon World" costumes with B movie taglines? 3D potato chips. It's like McDonald's: Everybody hates 'em and disses the food, but we all go there. Not because we WANT a cardboard burger, but because everybody goes there. I quit trusting DAZ products when they clogged up my runtime with !V3 folders. And I quit trusting DAZ (and yes, this is a PERSONAL promise!!!) when sleazemeister marketing decided to mug us with a clownfish. Nice muggers are still muggers, even if they decide mugging is not good business. They make some good stuff, and I buy it if I need it. I bought the Castle kit a few weeks ago. But I glance at the "people just bought" stuff at the bottom of the page, and it's obvious that their market is driven by perceived need. If they did a miserably rigged vampire mole with blurred textures, people would suddenly realize that they WANTED a vampire mole!!! Pathetic, but welcome to ConsumerLand. M

Re:I have bought clothes and props for Jessi, which is my main model, and I would buy stuff for the other P6 guys. Yes, you want to support Characters, other than Daz, why not support the P5 or P6 Characters??? Daz has - DS & Free Figures Poser has - Poser 4,PP,P5 & P6 and Free Figures Everyone that has bought Poser 5 or Poser 6 has those Free Figures as well. No one has to go out and create a new character. Make better morphs & textures for Jessi, James, Miki & Koji. There are a few out there. Don't like the shape of Jessi's Head, make some changes for sale. Quite frankly I haven't bought spit from Daz in the past several months. I haven't seen anything to entice me to spend the money. I have been spending my several hundred dollars on James, Jessi, Miki and Koji. There does seem to be a trickle of support that is growing. I applaud those merchants, just to name a few who have taken a chance on Miki and some of the other P6 Figures. outoftouch Posermatic idler168 Fenrissa_ serpentis Freja Rhiannon Ravenhair nekoja lyrainbow karanta Firebirdz RuntimeDNA Cheers DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

"You seem to be implying that there weren't any successful sci-fi movies or TV shows prior to Star Wars. No 2001 A Space Odyssey, no Logan's Run, no Silent Running, no Forbidden Planet, no Star Trek/Lost in Space/Twilight Zone TV series......I could go on and on." Xenophonz, seeing he specifically mentioned 2001 in the paragraph you replied to, we need to assert that no, he really didn't seem to be implying that.

I'm the asshole. You wanna be a shit? You gotta go through ME.

You seem to be implying that there weren't any successful sci-fi movies or TV shows prior to Star Wars. No 2001 A Space Odyssey, no Logan's Run, no Silent Running, no Forbidden Planet, no Star Trek/Lost in Space/Twilight Zone TV series......I could go on and on. It depends on how you want to define successful. "2001" was successful, but not the same boxoffice success of more conventional movies of the time. "Star Trek" got cancelled in its second season and brought back to limp through a third before being cancelled for good. Luckily, that third season is what allowed it to have enough episodes to get into syndication and find a new and larger audience. Here's a neat site listing the longest running weekly series: http://www.angelfire.com/trek/proutsy/ http://www.boxofficemojo.com/alltime/adjusted.htm Boxoffice sales, adjusted for ticket price inflation, don't show a single pre-"Star Wars" science fiction movie in the top 100. There was little reason for anybody to expect "Star Wars" to become the phenomenom that it did. There were a lot of people hoping that it would be successful enough to invigorate the genre. If you get a chance, try to watch "Empire of Dreams" when it's rerun on A&E or watch the uncut version of it on the trilogy DVD. The creative team behind "Star Wars" expected the movie to make a profit, but what happened still exceeded anybody's expectations--and there was more than one studio bigwig that wanted to pull the plug on the movie before more money was lost. One thing I hadn't known was that George Lucas' deal to trade some of his salary for merchandising rites wasn't based on any great prescience of what would come as much as a belief that he could do a better job of using the toys to help sell the movie than the studio would. Up till then, movie merchandising wasn't very successful. > Throughout all of human history, V3 has never once gone out of style yet -- if you know what I mean. V1 & V2 went out of style when V3 was released and the same will happen to V3 when V4 comes out. They're all evolutions of the same figure and you're right that they're sure bets for clothing sales, but I wouldn't want to make my bets that a half dozen years old Poser figure has enough of "all of human history" behind it to gauge what's popular for the rest of human history. Nobody expected Westerns to go away forty years ago. Not many industry experts expect them to make a comeback today. A lot of entertainment experts said that sitcoms were dead twenty years ago and then the "Cosby Show" came out and proved them wrong. If there were only a single-minded obsessivenes in only making Vicki products, the Poser market would choke itself to death. Fortunately, there are content creators providing other products, different characters, props, environments, etc. that allow artists to readily create full-fledged 3D scenes. It's that variety that keeps Poser interesting. DAZ used to have a listing of their top selling products, that I can't find anymore, but they weren't all Vicki products. I like the thought of a lot of the independent Poser content creators banding together to create an alternative marketplace that gives their wares better visibility. The independent artists, in virtually any medium, tend to be the ones stretching what can be done in their creative fields. Large corporations tend to play it safe. Anything that makes it easier for independents to flourish is a good thing. It's always fun to seeing creative mavericks bucking the system.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

RE: I like the thought of a lot of the independent Poser content creators banding together to create an alternative marketplace that gives their wares better visibility. The independent artists, in virtually any medium, tend to be the ones stretching what can be done in their creative fields. Large corporations tend to play it safe. Anything that makes it easier for independents to flourish is a good thing. It's always fun to seeing creative mavericks bucking the system. This may be part of What would it take - to get the Independent creators together?? The very nature of their independence could be a road block. I agree that it would certainly increase their visibilty. Cheers DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

I think that a website that would act as a catalog with a single thumbnail representing each of the independants product, which, when clicked upon, would take the prospective customer directly to the independant merchants website. The independants merchants can be just as independant and creative as they would like to be, on their own website, with their own bandwidth and their own merchant account/payment method. Things to discuss would be who would run/host/maintain the website, what kind of format/software to use, what kind of fees would be imposed to have a page on the website, what kind of search/categorization tools will be available etc. What kind of banner rotation system, image sizes, page setups etc. I'd really be happy to discuss this with any and all independant merchants. Maybe I could set up a free forum somewhere to get discussion going. Davo

Re:I think that a website that would act as a catalog with a single thumbnail representing each of the independants product, which, when clicked upon, would take the prospective customer directly to the independant merchants website. Sort of similar to what ContentParadise is doing now, but there would be No Sales on the Catalog Website. I just read this in the CP Forum. Not certain what to make of it. It atleast sounds like EF is attempting to move forward here. CP Passport members will be receiving this mystery woman Free, prior to it's public release. [Quote] Were currently working on standardizing character development with the idea that there are several types of users with specific needs. We are also looking forward to future versions of Poser and in doing so there are many considerations. Were looking for that Holy Grail that is an extremely natural bending and versatile character. One that maintains simplicity that caters to posing and animation, as well as content creators. [UnQuote] DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Xenophonz, seeing he specifically mentioned 2001 in the paragraph you replied to, we need to assert that no, he really didn't seem to be implying that.

This is to miss my point.

He seemed to be implying that Star Wars was some sort of a totally unknown quantity at the time -- territory where no one else had ever trod before. Well -- they had. Sure, not with the numbers of Star Wars: but I would submit that no one could have predicted that sort of phenomenon in advance. The producers of Star Wars certainly didn't.

It was a golden B-B. Or a golden arrow. Take your pick. Star Wars just happened to hit in the right place at the right time. But from the point of view of the movie's creators: it was largely a chance occurance. Not something that they had specifically planned for. Their goal at the time was to make a modestly successful sci-fi movie. Instead, the thing jumped right out of their hands -- and took on a life of its own far, far beyond their wildest expectations.

This did not happen because George Lucas figured out in advance that the public "needed" Star Wars. It simply happened because it happened. Not because of Lucas being some sort of a prophet.

BTW - the Star Wars phenomenon which we are discussing so thoroughly is notable because of its very uniqueness. Few others have come close to duplicating it. Even other wildly successful movies like Titanic haven't had anywhere near the long-term pop cultural impact that the original Star Wars trilogy continues to have to this day (Note that I said the original Star Wars trilogy -- not what they've done with (to?) the franchise since then.).

Boxoffice sales, adjusted for ticket price inflation, don't show a single pre-"Star Wars" science fiction movie in the top 100. There was little reason for anybody to expect "Star Wars" to become the phenomenom that it did.

Very true. And I indicated pretty much the same point in my previous post; outside of the "top 100" issue which you've mentioned here.

You are correct -- no one could have predicted that what happened with Star Wars would happen. Not the entertainment press at the time; not the Hollywood insiders; and not the people who produced the film. It just hit a spark with the public -- because the time & the place had come for it.

But it wasn't due to any sort of prophetic foreknowledge on the part of George Lucas. Sure -- he worked hard at it. So did the producers of countless other well-done movies. But unlike the others, Lucas just happened to land in the right place at the right time. Good for him. But he never once sat down in advance and figured out that the public "needed" Star Wars.

V1 & V2 went out of style when V3 was released and the same will happen to V3 when V4 comes out. They're all evolutions of the same figure and you're right that they're sure bets for clothing sales, but I wouldn't want to make my bets that a half dozen years old Poser figure has enough of "all of human history" behind it to gauge what's popular for the rest of human history.

OK -- now this really is totally missing my point. Obviously, you didn't quite catch what I meant.......

I was using "V3" as an archetype. An archetype for female beauty in all of its incarnations throughout the ages. And no......she's never gone out of style. Not once.

Bring on V4! Bring on VENUS! I'm all for obsoleting the currently-popular mesh known as V3.

But the concept behind "V3" will always be there -- in one form or another. And always as popular as ever.

If there were only a single-minded obsessivenes in only making Vicki products, the Poser market would choke itself to death. Fortunately, there are content creators providing other products, different characters, props, environments, etc. that allow artists to readily create full-fledged 3D scenes. It's that variety that keeps Poser interesting. DAZ used to have a listing of their top selling products, that I can't find anymore, but they weren't all Vicki products.

We have no argument on this point. I agree with you 100%. We all need good cities, houses, spaceships, automobiles, boats, etc.....etc.....etc.... to stick our V3's into. After all, no scene would be complete without the appropriate background supporting the central figure of V3.

;)

Look -- this is my beef here: I frankly get tired of the repeated whining coming down from those who constantly complain about V3's dominance of the Poser market.

Typically, one tends to hear from the unhappy. Not from the 95% of the satisfied. The satisfied tend to express their humble opinion by buying things en masse from those merchants who are smart enough to take advantage of the natural flow of things -- and not from those unhappy individuals who constantly (and unsuccessfully) are always trying to buck the public's obvious taste. It might not happen to be the individual merchant's taste -- but it IS the majority of the public's taste. So it's what sells.

Learn the rule, or not -- it's all a matter of individual choice. But at least in THIS case, while the results might never be 100% predictable....nothing in life ever is.......but this is the way to bet. shrug Sometimes, "safe bets" don't pay off. But they usually do.

I like the thought of a lot of the independent Poser content creators banding together to create an alternative marketplace that gives their wares better visibility. The independent artists, in virtually any medium, tend to be the ones stretching what can be done in their creative fields. Large corporations tend to play it safe. Anything that makes it easier for independents to flourish is a good thing. It's always fun to seeing creative mavericks bucking the system.

That idea is fine with me, too. Go for it. I'll probably buy things from them.

Who knows? Perhaps they'll end up creating another Renderosity..........with themselves in charge of it. So that others can then rebel against the "old guard" (who were once known as "mavericks") for being "too big & successful" on down the road.

It's all in the principle of the thing, you see....... Message edited on: 02/09/2006 12:24

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Any entity that is going to challenge DAZ is going to have to be well-run and well-FUNDED. Even then, they are looking at best at capturing a portion of DAZ's market share. Over time, they could capture an increasingly bigger chunk, but only if they keep at it and keep getting it right. They're also going to have to make strategic decisisions, some of which might rub people the wrong way. What then? To join any kind of collective you must sacrifice some level of independence. I think Mariner hit the nail on the head.

Maybe what's needed isn't a artist's co-op, but a MARKETING co-op. (Seems to be what you are hinting at, davo.) Members would maintain their own product lines and websites, with the co-op focusing on attracting business for its members, and possibly offering services such as website setup help and payment transaction processing. Membership in the co-op could then be a fixed business expense instead of a percentage of profits.

As a requirement of membership, artists would be expected to participate in certain well-defined ways (submitting to a cutomer-complaints arbitration process, contributing promotional items, displaying co-op co-branding prominently on their website, etc.) The co-op would be motivated to attract more members, and less likely to fall into a closed circle of powerful insiders fighting out their personal ego-wars. (Yes, I know it's as hard to imagine such a thing happening in the Poser community as it is to imagine an artist with a big ego, but indulge me here ;-)

BTW - About TrueValue vs. Home Depot. Isn't that kind of like what we're talking about here? TrueValue hardware stores are locally owned, I believe, or at least franchises - but they get the marketing clout and brand recognition that comes with the nationally-advertised TrueValue name. It's at least possible that TrueValue kept Home Depot from wiping out the local hardware store in the way that Blockbuster wiped out the local video store.

• Jimdoria ~@>@

Message edited on: 02/09/2006 12:31

• Jimdoria  ~@>@

BTW - human beings "need" air, food, water, shelter, clothing, occasional medicine.....and companionship.

Go much beyond that rather short list: and you are getting into "want/desire" territory. Not "need".

Admittedly, wants & desires can be extremely powerful (and often destructive -- sometimes constructive) things. But wants & desires cannot by rights be defined as "needs".

I want a lot of Davo's superb models. And so I'll buy them from him. Because he's supplying me with things that I want.

But I can't honestly say that I actually need any of them.

Message edited on: 02/09/2006 14:06

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

This just ain't no fun no more.

well, I'm not a merchant, but as a consumer, I think it would be great to have a site to go to that advertises the new products coming out from a group of independent merchants. You guys do advertise here, and DAZ to a certain extent, but most of the time its more from word of mouth, (or word of posting). Plus I'm surprised either place allows any outside vendor advertising, especially rendo, but its probably good in DAZ's case , as most of the stuff supports the products they sell. From the independent end, though, how would you get the word out to all the possible consumers? Banner ads everywhere for sure. Maybe an affiliate program. You need to get box ads within the Poser package, which means support from EF, which also means you would have to support the Poser stock figures to a certain extent. How do you reach the people that buy Poser but have no clue there is even an outside market? Get the sales list from EF ? Is there a way to get a banner on Amazon? Advertise in 3D World ? Maybe the Parent site could take 10-25% of the revenue that would be used for advertsing, site upkeep, etc. That would still allow the merchants the majority of the sales in their pockets, but they would not have to worry about advertsing

Humankind has not woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle, 1854

scratched head...kinda thought they did that in themarket place here but then maybe i missed something...in the seachable data base....

I think people will support whatever they want to. I know that sounds over ssimplified, but trendy isn't to be under estimated. There are many forms of support aside from financial. Releasing Apollo showed me a very dark side to many people I always thought to be fairly likeable. There are vast inventories and product bases invested in the Millenium line people don't want to see jeaporadized. Gareee, For the record Apollo was originally going to be brokered at Daz. This failed to happend for 2 reasons. 1) They wanted to back out of a signed agreement to a never before offered 60% broker split if I returned to them. I have the signed document which obviously never went into effect. 2) I found out from a staff member about an internal discussion to discontinue the Apollo in a few months if his purchase couldn't be coerced. Just like what they did to Dodger and would have done to Koshini. The joke was called "Minimize Maximus". But what would I know. Now if you see this as a mistake on my part, then I beg your pardon.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Hello, Anton.

If you ever put Venus up for sale, then I will buy her from you. I believe that a lot of other people would, too.

I feel certain that she'd be up to your usual excellent standards in every way.

Have a good one........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Ditto here about Venus if you decide to do it, Anton. You do great work. Interesting info on your AM experience. Just one more reason not to buy from daz: 'principle', regardless what their mouthpieces say.

Hey -- I'll buy V4 from DAZ, too.

As far as the inside politics surrounding the "figure fight" issue are concerned - I refuse to take a side. I don't have a dog in that particular fight. And frankly: it's none of my affair anyway.

If it's good product, then I'll be interested. I ain't pre-judged-issed.

Venus would be a sure-fire winner with me. So will V4 -- or whatever else DAZ chooses to call her.

To me, this issue isn't an either/or construct. There's no reason why I can't have BOTH figures, plus many others......and be happy with all of them.

But that's just me.

---

Goodnight, folks. See you in another 11 or 12 hours. Or so.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I think people will support whatever they want to. I know that sounds over simplified, but trendy isn't to be under estimated. You probably shouldn't stop short with that belief. It's important to understand customer buying habits to better feed products to those customers. I don't know if any of my observations can help. The Poser market is different today than what it was five years ago. Older Poser buyers were used to paying $30-$60 apiece for content. Newer customers, like me, aren't used to paying that much for anything. One thought for widening Apollo's user base would be to break the figure up to smaller marketable packages. The sum cost of all the pieces can be a little more than what's bundled with Apollo today to make the bundle still the deal to get. The main Apollo figure should be inexpensive so that more people will buy him and potentially want to buy more. The market potential for Apollo is only as good as the base of customers that own the figure. Nobody, that doesn't own the figure, is buying any Apollo products. More importantly, there aren't a lot of freebie users making Apollo products and I can only guess it's because they likewise do not own the figure. I'd suggest giving Apollo away to the more prominent community members, doing clothing freebies, to help invigorate community support for the figure. Apollo's cost has stopped me from buying the figure. I don't have enough time to do a lot of Poser artwork, so it's hard to justify the initial cost investment even though it may be a better deal in the long run. Apollo's base figure may be a better deal than Michael 3 after adding all the products together, but it's still too expensive. I buy new DAZ figures maximizing vouchers, coupons, and sales, so I'm not paying the individual prices. I've got figures I can use, so I'm in no hurry to buy the figure, head morphs, body morphs, textures, and hairs all at once. I can wait till there's a sale and PC voucher to drop the price to a few dollars. Enough people still have to have everything right away, so it's remains a viable marketing strategy for DAZ. Even if I buy the figure, it doesn't mean that I'll use the figure. There's only so much time in any week that I can devote to doing Poser art and the time to learn something new comes at the expense of doing something creative. My first inclination is going to be to use the figure that I've got the clothing for. I can always try to use Wardrobe Wizard to convert something to Apollo, but that's a hit-or-miss proposition depending on what clothing item is being used and, even when it works right, there's still some investment in time to make it happen. Unless I happen to be posing Michael in a way that the bend problems annoy me, I probably won't bother using Apollo. If the bends start bothering me, I might try Apollo and be happy enough with the results that it's worth the trip to WW to try getting the clothing I want to use onto him. The entropy of using what we're comfortable with is a hard thing to break. Something has to be really much better than what I'm using, or more quickly suitable for the drawing I want to do, to break my habit of using what I'm used to working with. Getting me to break those habits is hard to do. The first step of that is getting the new figure into my hands. There aren't any other steps taken till then. After that, it's a matter of educating the community how the new figure is an improvement worth taking the extra time to use more. That is tricky because not everybody has time to read every article in every forum. Again, it's another investment in time that takes time away from other activities. The hard part for you is finding a way to reach me. Those are some of the problems with introducing a new figure. It's hard for me to want to spend much money on a new figure when I already have an adequate figure to work with. DAZ had the good fortune of producing the first advances with Poser figures with Victoria and Michael and those figures have a lot of free and commercial support. Both figures were a significant jump from the old P4 figures. Versions 2 and 3, for those figures have been more modest evolutionary advances and not as significant a jump. Apollo has struck me, from what I've seen and read, as being a bit of a jump from M3, but not so big that I've felt the need to abandon M3 in the same fashion as when I pushed the P4 Male aside for Michael. > 2) I found out from a staff member about an internal discussion to discontinue the Apollo in a few months if his purchase couldn't be coerced. Just like what they did to Dodger and would have done to Koshini. The joke was called "Minimize Maximus". I guess I'm not sure what that means. Were all these producers pushed to sell DAZ their products outright versus remaining brokered items? If that's the case, I can understand reasons for DAZ to want to own figure products that would have wide support, such as human figures and human toon figures. A brokered artist can leave any time with their product and all the ancillary support for those products likewise goes away. That's not a big deal for a prop or clothing item, or even some animals because the loss, at most would only amount to a few items having to be removed once the product was gone. When Koshini was moved to RDNA, dozens of products by many different producers were also removed because of DAZ's policy to not sell products for anything but their figures. In one sense, it's a good business policy to maintain their survival. In another, it's a bad one when shifting policy midstream and alienating artists that had come on board with an agreement that favored them better. Without getting much deeper into the movie analogy, which doesn't equate well with Poser, I was never implying that "Star Wars" created science fiction, but that it created a trend that made science fiction a much more commercially viable product than it had ever been before. "Star Wars" appealed to the mainstream public in ways that "2001" never could. Looking at the top 100 grossing movies, adjusting ticket prices to inflation, there wasn't a single science fiction movie on the list before "Star Wars" and there were 15 on the list after "Star Wars". Every other cinematic genre is represented before "Star Wars", ranging from drama to action to western to comedy to animation, but not a single science fiction movie. There's even two horror films on the list. That's evidence enough for me to say that science fiction movies weren't a fad prior Lucas jumping in (not to mention that I was waiting around back then for good scifi entertainment and not finding much out there other than on the printed page). Right now, westerns aren't trendy, but it doesn't mean that the "Alamo" or "Open Range" weren't released to some level of critical and/or commercial success, but they certainly didn't start a western trend the way "Star Wars" kicked off a big-budget scifi trend. If somebody put out a western that made $400,000 this summer, there would be a good chance that there would be a number of westerns released the following year and that would be the start of a new trend. That doesn't mean westerns didn't enjoy success in the past. It just means that they're not fashionable now, so less get made and it's harder to get them the kind of budget that today's trendy movies can command. When Lucas made "Star Wars", he was starting a trend, not following one. It wasn't intentional. He was only trying to make a movie that he'd like to see. That's the way it is with most creative artists. They're not trying to follow trends. They're following their own personal muses. An artist, making a living, tends to be more beholden to what is fashionable in whatever circles they're working in, but there are usually ways to be creative even within the confines of what customers are willing to pay for. Relating trends in movies to trends in Poser is mixing apples and oranges. There's a difference in practical usage because sticking with already owned figures vs. purchasing new figures makes sense over watching one genre vs. another. When I don't want to invest in a new Poser human figure, it's not because I'm afraid that I'm not using what's fashionable. It's because I already have something that works and don't need to spend more money on a figure that I don't perceive as being so much better to justify the cost. If I didn't already own M2 or M3, Apollo would be a more serious purchase consideration. I don't have the same concerns with movies. If I had only one to watch, "Return of the King" or "Open Range", I'd lean to fantasy over western. There was no reason to not see both movies and they were both great in different ways. Buying Apollo is more akin to buying a new computer--I know there's a better one than what I have, but I've already got one that works and I'd rather save the money. Besides, both EFrontier and DAZ are supposed to be working on significantly improved posing figures that will have new technical advances beyond what their respective posing software use today. That's makes any new figure investments today questionable because today's figures are limited by what Poser and Studio can do today. If anybody's interested in science fiction film grosses, here's an interesting link: http://www.the-numbers.com/movies/series/ScienceFiction.php

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

Apollo Max, Apollo Max, Apollo Max, Apollo Max...... He can be so many male characters; young, old, large, small. No need to buy a child figure - Apollo can scale and morph to be a child. For me he represents what a good base figure should be - versatile. If there's one figure that actually comes close to the marketing E-Frontier uses for James (that from him you can make any character you can imagine), then it's Apollo. He so needs product support. One day (soon I hope) Anton will release his female counterpart.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

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