In a recent thread here, I brought-up the subject of Anime, and how much I loved 'Ghost In The Shell' after seeing it for the first time recently. If truth be told, I'm actually quite smitten by it - and I've decided to have a go at designing one of those Anime babes with guns and a manacing gaze! As far as designing her is concerned, I think I'd be quite good at it. But as for the rest of what's invoved, I really can't seem to get my head around the 'production-pipeline' as they say. This is just a bit of fun (a new project for spare time), but even so - I want to do it well. I have an idea of how I would go about putting it all together and animating it, but I'm limited by the tools I have for doing it. I have Bryce and Cinema4D (without the Cell-Shader unfortunately), either of which I could use for the animation side of things. Also, I have PhotoPaint and Photoshop for the 2D and design side of things. Here is my step-by-step idea of how I think it may work: 1: Design the character/s and backgrounds on paper. (That'll be fun 'cos I ain't drawn anything by hand since I got into 3D). 2: Split each moving part into layers and bring them into Bryce or Cinema on various layers that are face-on to the camera. That way I can create depth of field to the virtual-cells without having it look as though it's rendered in a 3D app. 3: Add dialog, music, sound-effects and ta-da! I'm hoping that's the way I can go about this, although I'm probably overlooking something important in the process - if so, PLEASE tell me (that's why this message is here). I realize there's at least one major problem with my suggestion; and that's regarding the black outlines to the edges of the characters etc... How would I do that? I know I would have to draw them into each cell before I bring it into the renderer, but that's no fun for one guy to make, say, a five minute movie. I'm wondering if there's a free tool out there which is capable of analyzing a drawing, and adding 'vector' quality outlines to it automatically. Hopefully, something that has control over the ends of the lines (butt/pointed) etc...? I'm also wondering if there's any free dedicated tools for creating such an animation? An important point here is that I don't want it to look as if it was created on a computer (that's a BIG no no no!). I saw a 'SouthBankShow - Anime-Special' and this Japanese guy reckons that had the various Anime's been created on a computer, they just wouldn't be the same (I agree). So, if anyone has any experience or suggestions here, I'm all ears. Programs, tools, advice, suggestions, anything... Cheers, Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

You mean like the hot babe here, the character Ashleigh from Crossgen comics Scion (Blood for Blood series chapter 8) which I did as a direct style study done in layers using Adobe Illustrator 9 in 2004? This type of character? Or those big eyed babes?

Message edited on: 03/13/2006 13:39

Attached Link: http://www.polykarbon.com/tutorials/

Try polykarbons tutorials on drawing manga figures ;)

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@Quest

Wow! That's awesome looking work Quest ;-) Big thumbs-up

Yes yes yes! That's the sorta babe alright, but I have to say I think they look more menacing with the bigger eyes (like in Ghost In The Shell). I think it's because the larger the eye, the more expression you can put into it (but I'm new to this - so that's probably untrue).

Ok - Illustrator. That's vector isn't it?

I see you have the black edges, but are they generated with a feature of Illustrator or are they drawn in manually? I mean, I know you have to detail it yourself, but is it intelligent enough to create outlines to various shapes etc? For example the main outline is fatter than the inner detail lines. Also, can you animate (just for testing) in Illustrator?

I'll have to look at Illustrator, I've never even used a demo of it - never had the need up until now.

@Rayraz
Thanks man, that should come in handy. I sort of have a style in my head I want to put into the character, but I'm gonna need all the tips I can get for this - never done this style of stuff before, cheers!

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Illustrator rules Pumi! It's indeed vector that's all it does really but it does it so well! And ofcourse outlines are automatic! you draw paths, a path has an outline and a fill. you can choose the width of your outline and even the shape of the "brush" that draws the line (to make it wider or thinner as the path goes in different directions for instance) Also you can blur vector objects or distort them in different ways, there's booleans (sounds familiar huh?) and much more!

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Thank's Ray, I'll spend tomorrow looking into Illustrator for sure - it sounds just the ticket ;-)

I hope it comes in an 'Elements' version though (like my Photoshop/Premiere bundle did). That was a real bargain. If it doesn't, I get a feeling it's going to cost a fortune - hope not.

BTW, that link is good. I've got a book here on drawing human figures in the correct proportions, and that website is very similar to it - only for Manga proportions etc... Great!

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

In the animated gif youll see that each layer is a component of the overall image. You determine the width of the outline or even if you dont want an outline. Highlights are done using gradient fills and most are put on their own layer. Illustrator 9.02 does not support animation. Im not sure if more recent versions do.

I know that Illustrator ai files (vector files) can be exported into some higher-end 3D programs and converted to splines. But the splines created from ai are very involved and need to be edited and made into simpler objects with fewer vertices. Then using these simplified splines you can model your mesh to fit the outline of these splines, a somewhat involved procedure. You would probably be better off modeling your figure in a modeling program.

Of course there's Flash, but it handles vectors in a different way than Illustrator. (The pen tool in the MX versions is sorta crap when compared to Illustrator's. Dunno if they fixed how it behaves in 8. The way the paint tool in Flash automatically converts to vector shapes is pretty neat though.) If animation is your end-goal, Flash is definitely worth looking into. Not sure if there are any good free options out there. I suppose you could look into GIMP. They might have an animation-related plugin. Or you could check the GIMP forums for finding good leads on Open/Free animation software. Also if you have a tablet for drawing, I'd recommend OpenCanvas 1.1 (the older free version) as a good program for sketching character studies while saving paper. (It saves the time involved in scanning and making adjustments from pencil drawings too.) It doesn't animate, but it's great for practicing. Unlike PhotoShop/Gimp, OpenCanvas is very simple (almost like Wings in that regard) and the drawing tool is plenty flexible and responsive in regard to stylus input.

Barbequed Pixels?

Your friendly neighborhood Wings3D nut.
Also feel free to browse my freebies at ShareCG.
There might be something worth downloading.

On the comment about flash' drawing tools being sorta crap compared to illustrator. That's absolutely true! lol Flash' tools aren't the most usefull for illustrating purposes in my opinion. However you could ofcourse just draw your figures in Illustrator and then animate them in flash! ;-) With the recent macromedia/adobe fusion this will probably even become a quite streamlined process in the future. I must warn you though, this 2d graphics and animation stuff is quite different from 3d TA renders ;-) Like everything with computers a new field of expertise often requires a new way of thinking about things too.

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Just popped in to see the thread, and thanks for all this. I'm just gonna try and grab that Illustrator demo right now, have a tinker, then report back here with a reply - and questions (you bet)! BTW, the name 'Canvas' rings a bell as well - I'll post later ;-) Cheers, Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Canvas yea i think it's what people used to paint on before there were wacoms?

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Well Ray, it's what I'd still HAVE to paint on 'cos I ain't got a Wacom! Actually, although I can draw - I can't paint, so luckily I won't be needing real canvas or a Wacom :-D

Nah, it was something Paul said 'bout OpenCanvas. To be honest I've never heard of OpenCanvas - but his mentioning it reminded me of something. A few months back I stumbled upon a program called Canvas 8 by Deneba. It was in WHSmiths on a coverdisc, and unusually for me, I bought it just out of curiosity of why it's normally such an expensive program.

Anyway, I installed it, saw the insane amount of buttons/options, and thought pffffffffft! I'll leave it till I have more time. Since then I've reformatted and forgotten all about it - till today (cheers Paul).

Good news is; it's Vector/Bitmap/Animation all-in-one (although I'm not sure 'exactly' what they're getting at regarding the animation side of things.

Incase you've never heard of it - here's their website:

http://www.acdamerica.com/products-x/default.html

...not bad when you can get it for free! (Well, Version8 you can).

Paul, I'm going to play with Canvas 8, get a feel for it - then I'll try-out OpenCanvas. As for Flash, I though that's just an animation format, so I doubt it would be much use to me.

Quest, big-time thanks for that. It's great to see it built-up like that - though I do have a question:

On the light coloured flesh spots you call gradient fills, what tool is it? I've been playing with Canvas 8, and I seem to have found a way of reproducing what you did with various tools. I can't seem to find something that gradient-fills to a 'freehand' shape though :-/ Does this tool have a special name in Vector terms? If I knew what it's called - I might find it among the options ;-)

As for Illustrator, I'm at a dead end. I visited Adobe, it won't let me register for some reason, and I can't even find out what the 'qualifying' products are for a discount(it won't work). I think I'll have to give this Canvas 8 a good thrashing in order to know if I should pay-out for Illustrator or not.

Len.

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Well Pumeco, there are several ways to mix gradients in Illustrator. The top method is simply a straight forward radial gradient fill whose colors can be selected. Here we have a dark yellow center with a deep orange outer fill used with the pen tool.

In the second method above, you have the option of using a brush and you can select the type of fill and the outer stroke color.

The animation shows how you can create pen tool shapes using different colors and then using the blending option in Illustrator. The pen tool shapes dont have to be within each other for the gradient to fill. Also know that you can feather the outer stroke and then apply opacity to a brush tool.

Message edited on: 03/14/2006 19:44

As for Flash, I though that's just an animation format, so I doubt it would be much use to me. Flash is a very, very versatile format, its not just a plain animation format. It includes vector drawings, animations, Actionscript (for scripting animation as well as interaction), video (since version 8 with aphachannel support and interactive capabilities), bitmap effects (also since version 8). And actionscript also includes functions to have your flash application to interact with databases, xml and html. Also flash8 has it's own video compression codec which is called On2 (On2 VP6 actually i think...) Produces pretty good quality it seems. flas7's codec is not that good though. Oh and there's FlashLite for mobile phones too ;)

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Aaaaaaaaah!

No wonder I couldn't find it, Quest, I've been selecting random shapes and trying to find some sort of 'conform-to-path' option for the fill. What you've just shown is a totally different approach - DOH!

I'll have to see if it can be done that way in this proggie. Also, I totally dig that scruffy-looking outline on the second pic. If that's still a vector outline, that's neat - and I don't think I'd be able to do that with Canvas.

I'm playing with it again today, so I'm going to look at it differently to see if I can replicate the features of your latest demonstration. If I can't, then it look's like I'll have to buy Illustrator (I was saving ready for CinemaX, but hey, I've had enough of 3D for a while - if not permanently).

Oh yeah, one plus point though; I read in the manual that it's got all that boolean stuff 'raz mentioned - so that's something at least - lol

Ray, yup I got that one wrong! It's just evertime I see the word 'Flash' it seems to involve websites and FlashAnimations, so I've never taken any notice of it.

Thanks all ;-)

Len.
(Off to play again)

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

There's always anime master or manga master (can't remember the exact name - it's by e-frontier)

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Toolset: Blender, GIMP, Indigo Render, LuxRender, TopMod, Knotplot, Ivy Gen, Plant Studio.

Thanks Gog - that title sounds VERY promising.
Just gonna grab somethin' for tea, then check that out for sure (with a fresh mind) ;-)

Oooooohooohoooh - me likes the title alright!

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Attached Link: http://www.e-frontier.com/go/mangastudio_hpl

It's manga studio (my bad!)

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Toolset: Blender, GIMP, Indigo Render, LuxRender, TopMod, Knotplot, Ivy Gen, Plant Studio.

Another way to make highlights is to draw the shape of the highlight and apply a gausian blur effect to it. A "conform to path fill" kinda thing would be possible my casting an innershadow or innerglow or such which pretty much casts a gradient of color inwards into your object fading to your fill color as it gets further away from the edge of your object (just like in photoshop basically) You can set the distance as well as the blending mode with which the glow or shadow is cast. Evertime I see the word 'Flash' it seems to involve websites and FlashAnimations, so I've never taken any notice of it. And indeed thats not really all that far from the truth ;) I would personally describe Flash as you would now buy it in stores as a "(mainly) vector graphics based interactive webdevelopment and animation platform". Though it's increasingly hard to specify what flash is as bitmap graphics and video get more and more included and this will probably only happen more now that macromedia merged with adobe. Probably in a few versions it'll just be best described an interactive communication and animation platform or such. I personally really hope Flash will get server-side dynamic scripting capabilities such as internal php support. (including php code straight in your flash application as you would include both php and html elements in your usual dreamweaver projects)

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Well, I've been playing with Canvas again and I've figured out how to do those 'freehand' shaped fills. Still haven't found out how, or indeed IF, I can do those scruffy-edged vector lines with it though (but I'm still giving it a thrashing).

I've found some really cool spline-editing tools in it though. The only vector program I used to use was TurboCAD-PRO5, but that's old now - and not a patch on this thing.

Gog, thanks for that. It looks awesome, and I've sort of 99% decided to buy the high-end version no matter what. The remaining 1% uncertainty is caused by their demo gallery. I'm wondering why 'everything' in the gallery is in Black&White. I can't imagine why they'd force the program to work in grayscale only, so I'll have to look into that.

Oh yeah - I had to laugh; It says over 1GIG for the download version, and a fast connection is recommended.

...lol - looks like a boxed version would be wise then 'cos I ain't waiting for that ;-)

Ray, I haven't a clue 'bout half of what you just told me, but thanks for the info ;-)

I just tend to leave anything web related to some trusted friends. I've been told it's not wise to use stuff which requires a browser plugin - if you want the maximum number of people to be able to access your website without problems. I understand your excitement with all that stuff though, because it's designed to make for better web experiences and such. For me though, if I get the option of trusty HTML/PHP or a fancy plugin - I'd choose to go for HTML/PHP on the grounds of availability.

Now, where was I...
Oh yeah, B&W MangaStudio gallery - I wonder why it's awesome but colourless?

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

well about 98% of the people on the net have a flash player ;) and anticipation is that by the time of july the 90% mark will be reached for flash player 8 (partly thanx to flash player detection that actually WORKS (finally) and linking to the browser plugin without leaving the page that requires it)

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Really, as much as that?

It sounds promising. It's a shame though, that all browser types don't install it as standard procedure (providing there's trust between the manufacturer of the plugin and the browser).

If that ever happened, I'd be more than happy to have such a website.

Ya never know!

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Really as much as that ;) And indeed adobe/macromedia is working closely with manufacturers and software developers to ensure that flashplayer will be included in not only browsers but also mobile phones! There's already many types of phones out there that come with a flash player by default. Flash isn't really a hazy future standard anymore, the point where it's a total standard is so close you can already see it's inevitability.

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I like the idea of it being a default installation, that's how it should be when it's so widely accepted.

Ray, just curious, but just to clear things up in my head;

Flash requires a player, which is run in the browser, which decodes and displays...what exactly? An animation with built in links? or is flash a module that needs to run inside HTML or PHP?

Ray, visit this link:

http://www.manga.com/ghost/

Now, what I don't understand is this;

I can't see anything in the url that tells me what it is. I mean .html .php or whatever. So I'm assuming it's Flash and the browser just ignores everything else and let's the player take over?

I mean there's stuff hidden in the corner of that screen which links to video etc, but it's not like it's calling-up MediaPlayer to play them. So it's like a complete self-contained thing is it? and it wouldn't matter weather the user was on a PC/MAC with/without MediaPlayer then?

...as long as they have the free player?

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

A flash player plays a flash file :) This file can be an animation that just plays by itself. But it can also be a functional application that does things when you click or type or move your mouse or press keys depending on what it was scripted to do :) It might be a roll-over menu that loads menu buttons from an external xml file and unrolls with some flashy animation when you move the mouse over it. Or it might be a game like smack the penguin. Or it might be a picture gallery. anything really ;) Ghost in a shell's site is indeed a flash driven site. Though i think i could do most of that with javascript if i wanted to :P (not as easily though)

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I get it now;

"...it can also be a functional application..."

I didn't realize it was a compiled type of script. I should have known though, otherwise why else would the maker give away the player, other than to cash-in on the sales of the compiler, 'Flash' ;-)

I suppose (I know) I'll have to learn to use something like that sooner or later; I don't like relying on others.

Funny really, 'cos I'm pondering making pumeco.com a personal site (might put some pics/music on it), instead of using it as a commercial cloaker-site. I don't think a logo in the corner with a couple of link's would cut-the-mustard anymore if I used it as a personal site - so yeah, cheers 'raz, I'll be sure to look into Flash sometime ;-)

Len.
(Bloody hell, that's MORE money - lol)

The wait can be horrific, but the outcome can be worse - pumeco 2006

Flash .swf is a bit funny in some ways too. Depending on how you script it, you can get it to run: as a streaming file, as a downloaded file on the client computer, or an interface/host for yet another remotely loaded file. It's pretty dang versatile when you get into the scripting side of things, but most artists just use it for it's unique paint tools (as opposed to the pen, ugh) or its animation ability.

Barbequed Pixels?

Your friendly neighborhood Wings3D nut.
Also feel free to browse my freebies at ShareCG.
There might be something worth downloading.

Forum: Bryce

Subject: The most productive process - please?