Maybe it's just me, but I have noticed that a lot of people use the poseable hair. Yes, it comes in a lot of great styles, colors, etc...but come on. Is throwing a character into poser, adding some hair, and a few props really artwork???

I miss the good old days when a lot of people actually spent time on painting hair and clothes. The level of detail put into the work can be truly amazing. In my mind, that is dedication, hard work, and truly deserving of being called art.

I find myself skipping over a lot of pictures lately as I browse the gallery because to me, they all seem the same. Same characters, same hair styles, same clothes. They are starting to lack in originality. Is any one else feeling the same way? To me, it is no longer fun to look at a bunch of pictures of what looks like plastic people with plastic hair thrown in a plastic looking scene.

If you are one of these people, I am by no means criticizing you....after all, you have to start somewhere. This is just my opinion, and I really am not out to attack anyone or make them feel that their work is not worthy. I am just wondering where all of the hard working, time spending painters have disappeared to. And which of you has the potential to be one, but are too afraid to give it a try?? Come on, put down the plastic hair and clothes, and grab that mouse/pen...see what magic you can create!! And if you don't know where to start...browse through the tutorials. There are a lot of wonderful references in there.

If you are wondering of the people I am talking about that I admire for their hard work, here are a few wonderful people that I am proud to call artists. Check out their work: Bez, Prog, pjaj, Vali, Rhiannon, Magician, Antje, Crasher, Sand tyger, Cimerone just to name a few. IMO, these people truly demonstrate the meaning of art.

The other thing that bothers me is that there are some people (yes, me included) that do put hours and hours into their pictures, and get only a few comments. Yet those that slap together a pretty plastic scene manage to get tons of comments. Is "perfect hair" and plastic looking clothes the "in" thing these days? Am I wasting my time trying hard to create beautiful pictures for people to admire? Should I invest in all the fake looking things so that I can get a few more viewers and a few more comments??

NO!! I will continue to work hard, and hope that maybe someday I will be as deserving of all the admirers and comment makers as those people I mentioned above.

Until then, I will continue to wonder....

"Would you like plastic or paper?"

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Yes&Artist=SamTherapy

I very rarely paint hair. I personally would rather spend hours getting the image as good as possible in Poser, rather than painting over a render. Take a look at my gallery and tell me my stuff looks just like everything else. I dare you. I double dare you. :)

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

Sam... Yes and no. But you proved my point. Poser hair everywhere...props I have seen a thousand times. Yes, a few of the scenes are quite nice, but none of it looks real to me. I admire your comics more because those look like they took more time to create. There is nothing wrong with doing postwork on a render. In fact, I encourage it. Get rid of those lines and shadows that make the character look fake. Ditch the plastic hair and be creative. Give the character a look that screams that it came from YOU. Kind of like your comics. They are yours, created by your hand, and have YOUR style. That is what true art really is. A reflection of you. I'm not saying your gallery is bad, I'm just saying that to me, it resembles the work of a lot of other people. Good work, but not spectactular to my eyes at all.

If I can find a Poser hair prop that's close to what I have in mind, I'll use it and then paint over it in postwork, so it looks more like actual, you know, hair. ;-) I'm not going to adress the "is it art" thing. The horse has been dead for years and yet people keep flogging the poor thing... bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Bonni, Using poser hair to paint over is a great way to start. But if you can paint over it, why not try to paint it freehand? I bet you can do it if you really tried. You have enough artistic ability in you to create a poser picture to start with. Why not challenge yourself and take your art one step more? Keep up the good work. And keep creating!!

You're a fan of loads of post work, others aren't. You should respect that. Just because some choose to post work 90% of their images in a graphic program doesn't mean that their art is better than anyone else's. It's just a different style and technique. You really shouldn't slam people for being creative. It's not very nice.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I wasn't slamming anyone....I even said that in the very first post. "If you are one of these people, I am by no means criticizing you....after all, you have to start somewhere." All I'm pointing out is that those that do take the days and days to create 90% of their picture aren't getting the credit they deserve versus those that go into poser and throw some things into a picture in a half hour. As for respect, I respect anyone who even attempts to create a picture, no matter how little work they put into it. I never said I didn't. Maybe you should learn the meaning of that word before you jump on here and start ripping into me for voicing my opinion.

I have no problems with anyone being impressed, indifferent or plain pissed off with my work but I do take exception to anyone attempting to define art by the length of time it took to create and/or the tools used to create it. One qualification to that before someone picks up on it... I do not believe it's possible - under normal circumstances - to create anything of artistic merit in 10 seconds or thereabouts. There may be exceptions; photography springs to mind, but that's all they are. That said, whether an image takes 5 hours, 5 days or 5 years is not a measure of artistic worth. As a side note, maybe 30% of my gallery is what I would call "art" and, oddly enough, I do not consider the comic panels to be art.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

My Store

My Gallery

I do sometimes paint it freehand. Sometimes, though, I have a deadline and it's easier to start with the prop in place. Yeah, I'm pretty sure I have the talent to do it... bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

It's sooooo hard to paint but I'm trying now and again, don't always post it though cause it stinks most of the time lol. Antje is definatly one of my favorites. :) When I grow up I want to be like her! ;)

If I knew "how" to paint hair I would. But all the tutorials seem to work on Photoshop and I use Paint Shop Pro ... anyone know a "really good" tutorial for Painting hair in P. Shop Pro?

Attached Link: http://www.kiwisgraphics.com/romanceisintheair.html

Oh I forgot I did paint this one here - link at the bottom of the page. Looks fake as hell to me... wrong color... to brassy... and I cloned alot LOL. Oh man how I'd love a "good" tutorial! Karen

Sorry, but I do feel that you are slamming anyone who doesn't postwork 90% of their gallery images. Whether you intended it or not, your initial post comes across as very condescending.

Maybe it's just me, but I have noticed that a lot of people use the poseable hair. Yes, it comes in a lot of great styles, colors, etc...but come on. Is throwing a character into poser, adding some hair, and a few props really artwork???

You start out talking about premade hair vs painted hair. Then you basically say that using premade hair on a figure isn't "art".

I miss the good old days when a lot of people actually spent time on painting hair and clothes. The level of detail put into the work can be truly amazing. In my mind, that is dedication, hard work, and truly deserving of being called art.

You come right out and state that only those who spend time on painting the hair and clothing in their images are dedicated and deserving of having their work called art.

I find myself skipping over a lot of pictures lately as I browse the gallery because to me, they all seem the same. Same characters, same hair styles, same clothes. They are starting to lack in originality. Is any one else feeling the same way? To me, it is no longer fun to look at a bunch of pictures of what looks like plastic people with plastic hair thrown in a plastic looking scene.

So don't look at them. There are lots of images in the gallery here and at other sites that fit your criteria of what "art" is. Look at those and skip the others.

If you are one of these people, I am by no means criticizing you....after all, you have to start somewhere. This is just my opinion, and I really am not out to attack anyone or make them feel that their work is not worthy. I am just wondering where all of the hard working, time spending painters have disappeared to. And which of you has the potential to be one, but are too afraid to give it a try?? Come on, put down the plastic hair and clothes, and grab that mouse/pen...see what magic you can create!! And if you don't know where to start...browse through the tutorials. There are a lot of wonderful references in there.

Maybe people don't want to "start somewhere". Maybe they are happy doing what they are doing the way they are doing it :)

Again, you have a preference for digital painted hair and clothing, and that's your right. Others either don't want to, don't have the time to, don't have the talent to, or don't have the money to invest in a graphic tablet, and we all know how hard it is it to digital paint fine detail with a mouse.

Again, while you may not have meant it, you are coming across, at least to me, as slamming others and telling them that if they don't "advance" into hand painting their props, hair, clothing etc, that they aren't "artists" and their art isn't "worthy". Like I said above, that's not very nice.

here are a few wonderful people that I am proud to call artists. Check out their work: Bez, Prog, pjaj, Vali, Rhiannon, Magician, Antje, Crasher, Sand tyger, Cimerone just to name a few. IMO, these people truly demonstrate the meaning of art.

Again, anyone who doesn't do the same as them, in your eyes, are not artists.

The other thing that bothers me is that there are some people (yes, me included) that do put hours and hours into their pictures, and get only a few comments. Yet those that slap together a pretty plastic scene manage to get tons of comments. Is "perfect hair" and plastic looking clothes the "in" thing these days? Am I wasting my time trying hard to create beautiful pictures for people to admire? Should I invest in all the fake looking things so that I can get a few more viewers and a few more comments??

Do art for yourself and to please you. Why does it matter who or what images gets more comments/views?! I've never understood that.

maybe someday I will be as deserving of all the admirers and comment makers as those people I mentioned above.

There is a thread going about how to generate more views and comments if you aren't happy with what you are getting.

Art is a very subjective thing. What appeals to one person doesn't appeal to someone else.

You can take a toilet seat, paint it black and white stripes and hang it from a cherry tree and call it art. It's not what I would call art, but someone does.

Some years ago where I live some woman got a huge government grant for some kind of art show. What was it? She poured buckets of pig blood on a floor and rolled around in it.

That same artists gathered up carcasses of dead rabbits and strung them on trees claimed it was "a study in putrification". It was truly disgusting and generated loads of controversy. Yet it was considered "art"; she even got more government money in order to do it. Did I like it? No. Did I go see it? No. But I respect her right to express her art in whatever manner she chooses, and it's not my place to tell her how to do that.

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 00:49

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Wow.. have just been to your gallery Avengia - now "thats" painted hair. Truely talented. Wish I knew how to do that.

I'm sure, if I sat down and tried over several months, that I'd be able to pain hair decently enough to risk posting the image here, however, I've got enough other things to work on other than Poser that the time required for that isn't really available right now. Also, as SamTherapy said, I try to get the best I can out of Poser, without postwork. And if you think that's an easy, half-hour deal then I suggest you try it. I've spent many hours over several days compositing a scene, test rendering, changing something, test rendering, changing something else, test rendering... until I get something I'm happy with. And with the higher quality of both hair and hair textures available now, I honestly don't see too much "plastic" hair. Unlike the hair that shipped with Poser 4... True, people like Prog can create awesome images by painting over a basice render, but IMHO, that stuff should be classified "Mixed Medium" not "Poser" because sometimes the only thing involving Poser was the base character, everything else being postwork. I do admit that painted hair often looks much better than prop hair, but in most images I've seen where clothing was painted, it looked "fake". Either the lines are too soft, or something, but I'd rather have prop clothing because a well made, well textured conforming (or dynamic) outfit in Poser can look very un-plastic.

________________________________________________________________

If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.

If you like painting so much, why don't you paint the entire image instead of using Poser? If I want to paint, I'll pull out my oils, brushes and canvas.

Coldrake

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 01:26

Now I remember why I stopped posting here about 3 years ago. Because it turns into a bitch fest. All I wanted to say was that I miss the good old days of poser before all the high tech, fancy-smancy premade shit came out. That was it. Nothing more, nothing less. I never said anyone's work wasn't art, and that they were less of an artist, or anything like that. I never degraded anyone's work, or put anyone down. That wasn't my intention, and will NOT be my intention.

To Karen: I clicked your link. It looks great! And more real than Poser hair. Keep it up!

To Kiwi: Thank you. That was really sweet (though, I didn't post here to force people to comment on my work smile). But thank you none-the-less.

To Acadia: You seem like one of those people that is a "post whore" so I'm going to skip over your post and continue to the next, because after the first few lines I formed one quick impression. You like to rip people apart, see what you want to see, and nothing else. Twist my words all you want, and interpret them how you will. That's your right. But I won't be a part of your little game.

To Modus: I did do the all poser thing at one time (except NEVER hair...because that's my personal preference), and I have gotten it down to where I can put together a picture in no time at all. Once you get used to Poser, the camera settings, lighting, shading, clothing, etc, it becomes quite easy. At least to me. Maybe not to others, but not everyone has the art background I have. And maybe you are right...maybe it should be called "Mixed Medium". That's the first piece of good "advice" I have seen on here yet, which is kind of what I was looking for when I created this. A solution. Because a picture that's not done completely in Poser shouldn't be classified as Poser. Because it's not. A majority of the time, the character is the only thing I pull out of Poser. Once in a while I will use back props from DM, but that's because they look realistic, and it's something I can't paint by hand no matter how hard I try. (And I generally do try first.)

To Coldrake: I did my first piece not too long ago completely freehand, without using a Poser character. But you have discovered my biggest downfall. The human body. In my eyes it is too magnificent and beautiful for me to capture it the way it should be. There are thousands of details that I can't seem to grasp right, but I won't give up trying. Some people can draw houses, some people do trees, others can do animals...and others can do humans. I am not quite one of those yet. I'm not perfect, and nor is anyone else (which is why I will NOT "slam" people for not being able to do all of it). But I will ask "why not try?" Why not push yourself to attempt something that maybe you don't think you can do? We all come here posting work to look for help, praise, and admiration. Face it. No one comes and posts here simply to have a storage place for their work. We have hard drives on computers for that, and disks we can save our work to. All I'm suggesting is that people branch out and try something new. Take your art to a new level, and see what happens. You could be surprised. I know I surprised myself the first time I drew an outfit that looked like actual clothes and not paint smeared on a body.

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 01:55

((Also, as SamTherapy said, I try to get the best I can out of Poser, without postwork. And if you think that's an easy, half-hour deal then I suggest you try it.)) Amen to that. I've tried using a tablet and absolutely hated it. I found it tedious and frustrating, and it took all the enjoyment out of the creation process. I love working in Poser and try damn hard to get the best possible results out of it that I can. And anyone who tries to tell me that that I'm not dedicated, that using Poser is not hard work, and that my work is not deserving of being called art, all because I don't paint digitally, can go jump off a cliff for all I care.

"You don't know what we can see
Why don't you tell your dreams to me
Fantasy will set you free." - Steppenwolf

Quote - All I wanted to say was that I miss the good old days of poser before all the high tech, fancy-smancy premade shit came out.

Then that's all you had to say, all the rest was irrelevant.

Quote - To Acadia: You seem like one of those people that is a "post whore" so I'm going to skip over your post and continue to the next, because after the first few lines I formed one quick impression. You like to rip people apart, see what you want to see, and nothing else. Twist my words all you want, and interpret them how you will. That's your right. But I won't be a part of your little game.

There is no need to get defensive and go into attack mode, make accusations and name call.

I was simply pointing out to you that your initial post comes across condecending and somewhat arrogant in that you insist that "art" has to be done one way in order for it to be considered "art".

That's an insult to people. Sorry you don't see that.

As for how much I post, that's really my business. However, I'd like to see how much posting you do if you were off work sick for nearly 2 years and with the exception of doctors and a once a month essential shopping, spend the rest of your time indoors. I have lots of time to kill, so I do it here. Again, sorry if you seem to have an issue with that. But that's your problem to work out, not mine. Message edited on: 03/25/2006 02:26

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

hey i just read through the post and i think you are all right, i personally use poser to generate better conversion skills and to train myself in moving rigs within mesh but think obout it, what is art trully good for? why do we all do it? art stirrs your soul no matter what ppl say wheather its misunderstood or neither benificery to them or anyone else. art is here because ppl have passion to say and create what ever they please, if we dont look at painting art but other forms once gullivers travels was sattire now its read to ppls childeren, michelangelo painted the sisteen chapel 3 times (i think) now if that doesnt make a example then what does. all im trying to say is that by arguing and fighting you are all proving yourselfs as artists not just through your work but through your soul and passion for the subject. cant we all just get along and at least agree on one thing.... we care enough to fight for our work IRRIGARDLESS of what medium. ps happy rendering = P

Actually, I had been off work for a long time....3.5 years to be exact. But that's neither here nor there. Sorry you are sick. But you are starting to take all of this way too personal. I don't care how much you post, it's how you post. You started a personal attack on me. I started an attack on POSER and it's ability to keep people from using 100% of their artistic ability by providing everything possible to keep a lot of people (NOT ALL) from using their full imaginations and abilities.

Your sick, I'm sorry. May God bless you, and protect you. But lets stay on topic, please!

So, back to my original post. Drawing on Modus's idea...should Renderosity create a new genre called "mixed medium"? That way poser art starts poser art, and those of us that use more than Poser can be recognized in our own way for our efforts? I like what you are thinking as far as that goes Modus.

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 02:30

Quote - cant we all just get along

That's my motto :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Quote - should Renderosity create a new genre called "mixed medium"?

There already is one.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I see that now, and thank you for pointing it out. Yet, as I look through it, I still don't see much of the type of art I have been describing. Maybe there should be a section dedicated to Poser and Postwork. Poser stays all poser, and and then have another section for Postworked Poser, or something. I don't know. Just trying to think of ways to describe what I do (as well as many others).

I really don't see why things have to be compartmentalized. Art is art and should be appreciated for what it is, regardless of the technique, medium or style.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Yes, why not draw pictures instead of using poser? You could go to the max forum and ask them why they don`t make their models out of clay or wood instead of using max.

If the only way to create art is through painting in postwork, instead of all that 'plastic crap', then does that completely count out all the wonderful work that Pixar, PDI, Blue Sky and so on are doing in their animations? Or do they not count? not an attack, just a thought that crossed my mind as I read... jonthecelt

hey all.. I don't normally post in the forums here but stumpled across this one.. I just have to say. I don't think it is all about the poser hair.. yeah it would be great if I could paint it on myself and I am learning.. I go through all of galleries all the time not just the poser ones, cuz, I think the alot of the poser images get to be about the same thing.. same props, same hair and the same look.. I am by no means knocking any artist here.. It is all art in my eyes whether u paint this or that on.. It should be about the artist and the piece of work whether the hair or cloths are painted.. But that is not the point here.. There are so many great artists and pictures in these galleries. I would love to be able to do some of things and turn what I am thinking or what I want into a piece like that.. the real question should be how come the pics that seem to get the most hits is the naked chicks w/ big boobs that don't even come close to looking real?? Just my 2 cents worth.. Render at will.. www.renderosity.com/gallery.ez?ByArtist=Y&Artist=Rockdog

Here's the rub Avengia,
I don't consider myself an artist to begin with, I have a "hobby" of making images that come from my mind. I don't have the artistic skill to be able to create them by drawing them, so I found this bit of software called Poser. It enables me to bring forth my visions and put them down in a way that I can actually see and that to me is worth loads!
I also have a life in the "real world" where I have to work to pay my bills, feed my family etc. so "time" is something I have very little of to "try" new things like painting when I can get the effect "I" want from the Poser hair, props etc.
I don't respect your view because it is too generalized and not what everyone wants or sees as art. If that's how you see art, great; but leave others who have differing views and needs to do it their way.
Long live the revolution!!!!!!!

Message edited on: 03/25/2006 03:11

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Quoted from Rockdog: "...is the naked chicks w/ big boobs" I think you just answered your own question... jonthecelt

Thought this forum was about 3d ? Modelling , texturing, lighting , rendering ?

I'm one of those who usually paint hair - IF I even use hair in the image.. But, to imply that all painted hair looks better than the hair props is ..well.. not true.. there's alot of crappy painted hair out there.. I say whichever works for the image is the best wy to go.. also very much depends on the style of your image.. if the rest of it is heavily postworked then maybe painted hair would look better.. If the image is basically a straight render - then what will probably look best is a hair prop.. these images (if done well) are the ones I'm the most impressed with.. cause I can't produce that kind of result myself and to comment about some of the artists you mentioned as being "real artists".. well to be honest.. quite a few of those galleries are just different versions of the same stuff.. I don't really call that being creative... so to sum my standpoint up: It's all a matter of taste.. most ppl have it - just not the same

CRITIC, n. A person who boasts himself hard to
please because nobody tries to please him.

As Poser gallery rule says ^_^

kitty5

www.Bucketload3d.com - where cool freebies are ~(==^..^)

I have seen some very well done Trans mapped hair. I even have a couple that turned out great. I most likely spent more time rendering those couple of hairs in a mutitude of layers to get the effect, than you spend painting. So does that make my hair better than yours? No. I'm not a trained artist, I am a musician for over 38 years. It's a good thing we aren't judged by what tools we use to get an ideal out. I use a maple neck and anyone else using a rosewood neck are not applying themselves to be better musicians. Even if my other 3 axes are rosewood. LOL. (rolls eyes) You seem to be good at painting. What about all of us that are good at creating morphs or modeling the clothes and props and creating the lights that we use in Poser. The ideals, stories and feelings that are put into that render. That to me is what an artist is. Now, I for one would not have enough time to animate painted hair. 15 to 24 fps. Wooh, not in my lifetime. I was in the gallery for a bit for the first time scence before XMas. I do agree that there is a bit of repetition and lack of luster in many renders. I also think it has to do with so many new learners of poser in the last while. So that's not a bad thing. Post work is a proccess that comes later. If you want more views and comments. Comment on every image, every day, you will get more. Having a snobish Ideal on art won't.

painted hair? i guess some ppl like to paint it, and sum dont, like me, im more than happy with he free hair, all ready made and easy to pose. cus i suck at paintitng and i have to agree with acadia on a lot. besides,art is many things included pre made things one puts together in poser or +++ before poser, i was drawing on paper, and it was good :) but i couldnt draw a decent lookin human or hair, so i started to surf the net and voila! poser 5! and now ,with that, plus a whole hd w freestuff and bought things, im glad i found it:P . all in all, ppl should be able to make art w what they have:D and yep, again i agree w ppl here :P.besides, look at this dynamic hair .i love it :P

Avengia, I do not agree with you. If you like hair painting, nothing wrong with that. In fact, you're one of the better hair painters I've seen in the galleries. But like pakled, SamTherapy, and many others, I want to get as much out of Poser as is possible. In my opinion, an image that is 5% poser and 95% painting is no longer a poser image, it's a 2D image. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the quality of the art, by the way. Using transmapped hair, twiddling the morph dials, adding magnets where morphs just won't do the job, playing with the shader nodes to get as much out of the textures as possible, tweaking render settings until it looks good - that IS an effort. Just like painting good hair is an effort. Two different ways to achieve results. The artistic value of either way does not depend on its nature, it depends on the effort and talent of the artist using the method. But I have to agree that the hair in quite a few images looks rather "instant". Doesn't only occur with transmapped hair, there are also many images in which I recognize the "instant hair" brushes - a simple outline plus a fill pattern is just as effortless as slapping on a default Poser hair figure/prop. Getting dynamic hair to look the way you want is also quite an effort. But if an artist applies him/herself and doesn't give up, he/she can get stunning and unique results. Same as with hair painting. The same goes for clothing. Just slapping on some conformers and using the supplied textures is the easy way out. Adjusting everything with morphs and magnets is always worth the effort. Playing with the shader nodes will enhance the default textures. Using well-made dynamic cloth and tweaking the animation, experimenting with wind forces, plus the shader node tricks I already mentioned will give the artist unique looking cloth. Again, you can reach a similar effect by painting the cloth. Again, an artist who spends the effort to paint cloth well will be able to create unique results. And again, there are many images in which the cloth is nothing more than an outline filled with a pattern. So again, the quality of the artwork doesn't have anything to do with the tools or methods used. The only thing that matters is effort and talent of the artist.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

I use poser hair etc. simply because I can't paint/draw! :0

MS Windows 7 Home Premium 64-bit SP1
Intel Core i7-2600 CPU @ 3.40GHz, 12.0GB RAM, AMD Radeon HD 7770

PoserPro 2012 (SR1) - Units: Metres , Corel PSP X4 and PSE 9

"All I'm pointing out is that those that do take the days and days to create 90% of their picture aren't getting the credit they deserve versus those that go into poser and throw some things into a picture in a half hour." Huh? Since when? I look at the hot 20, and it's constantly the same postwork fanatics voting in the same artists time and time again. More than half of the images that usually appear there are postworked to death. I think it's just the opposite of what you say. Meanwhile, you have folks who work in other apps on this site, like Maya, Lightwave, 3dsmax, etc., that rarely get ANY comments, views, or votes compared to Poser submissions, and their work is usually ALL done from scratch, with little or no postwork, modeled from the ground up! By your judgement, THOSE folks should really be considered the true artists, because they do it all from scratch, while Poser users who paint over the render actually started with pre-made stuff to begin with. Where does this mode of thinking end?

first off I am not an artist secondly I am not "starting off" lol been here a while. I have no artistic ability and i do have a benign essential tremor in my hands especially which makes for really bad shaking. Any artistic talent I may have I pour into my morphs - I love and enjoy morphing and am now creating my own textures for Kozaburo's wonderful and free hair and am learning to make poses for them aswell to make them truely mine :o) The closest I will ever come to painting is using the premade psd files like Lully's (they look wonderful and I can personalize them) So it looks like I will continue making my plastic pics and pretending they look like paper and remain the happy little vegimite i am now Chris the happy renderer :o)

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
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I have to agree with that everyone has their own unique style, i've tried painting hair and i suck at it, i do envy people who are right at home with a tablet - i hate it - i tried working with it..... I don't skip images if they have "poser" hair, that is what sells here is it not? merchants who have thought of those artists (yes artists) who cannot paint here and dedicate time to create HAIR. If i'm going to be classified as a plastic peep then so be it - i dont post my images for the comments but because i just love doing images and doing what my inspiration dictates. You have a great gallery - and your one of those people that do have some artistic flair.................. i paint over hair most times so it looks more natural. Im learning but its not on my priority list................ Sharyn the other happy renderer.

When is a Poser image not a Poser image? When it's been postworked to death. The name of the Gallery section concerned is "Poser" not "Photoshop" or "Painter" or "Paintshop Pro" etc. so it's for Poser images first and foremost. I'm not disputing the artistic skills of the accomplished postworkers. If I could paint hair I'm sure I would, and some of the artists you've mentioned are favourites of mine, but the argument itself is baseless. If I create an image in Poser of, let's say, a naked V3 (surprise surprise ~lol~) and then paint on the hair...then paint a beautiful dress, and then of course add the shadows created by the hair and dress it becomes something other than a Poser image to my mind. In fact, what I've done is used Poser for precisely the purpose it was originally designed for. I'm not calling for postwork galleries as has been mentioned in the past, I think that would make the whole gallery system unmanageable, but as long as heavily postworked pics appear in the Poser galleries then they have to live alongside the non-postworked images. This does not mean they bear direct comparison. It's apples and oranges ;) That's my $0.02 anyway.

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Ah, the never ending debate. Your comment does go against the usual post seen here though. Normally someone is upset because they don't think postworked anything should be in the Poser gallery. LOL Anyway, I do think that painted hair and clothing look very good when done with talent. Just like Poser hair and clothing look very good when done with talent. I personally suck at painting. I wish I didn't, but alas tis true. Everything being equal, I just sit back and enjoy the talent that the talented artists put in the galleries.

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LOL. Painted hair doesn't always look better than props. Sometimes images can look over postworked. Further, I'm more impressed by an artist's willingness to demonstrate a range of subject matter in their work. I tend to find myself ambivalent just because someone elses at painting hair on yet another pinup. But that could just be me...

I like this kind of topics :} Everyone can do hair paintings realy no problem... Why simple just check out 90% of the hairpainted images, and you will see thats 90% out the 90% uses brushes. They all look the same. Oke the hair flows in any direction sure but is does that with the same lines over and over again. And i checked you galery just now and your hairjob looks the same over and over again for 90%. So is doing some brush over in "photoshop" transfrom your painting to a higher leven wel IMHO no. Seeing the same brush used over and over again is just a simple as a hair prop. Everybody does the image the way they like and to there ability. And then why is somebody who's painting the hair and the clothes and the background or what ever more in an image, not paint the whole thing from scratch ?. Let people make what they wanna make. Just my 2 euro cents Chris

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IMHO, I think heavily postworked Poser images should be in the "Mixed Medium" Gallery!

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Chris: Just wanted to let you know...I don't use premade hair brushes. Every stroke that is painted is done by hand, one by one. And yes, a lot of them look similiar. But if you look at a portrait of me, you will see why. I paint hair like I see it, and my hair is my reference. To everyone else: I'm sorry I started this post. I had some frustration, I let it out, and now I've been trashed for it. Oh well, Renderosity loses another artist. No biggie. They have thousands. They won't miss me. But I've decided for now to just keep my art as my own and not post here for the time being. I work hard at my art (weeks at a time on a picture getting it just right sometimes), yet I feel underappreciated (as do some of my friends who have long gotten smart and left this place). It's sad that you have to comment on others work just to have them look at yours. You can no longer post something and have tons of people look at it and comment unless you are one of those that have been here forever, comment on everything, or are part of the "popular" group. Just because I don't post on everyone's picture doesn't mean I don't like it. It just means that it didn't jump out and grab me, looks like everything else I have already seen, or I just don't have the time to comment. (Full time job, a marraige to plan, and a child take up a LOT of my time. Also, I am not a liar. I see a lot of people post tons and tons of comments on people's pictures, yet every comment says the same thing. It just doesn't seem sincere. There are tons of time when I refrain from commenting for the simple fact that I might see a flaw. But I know no one is perfect, so I don't say a word. I don't want to be known as the "criticizer" and the "she thinks she's perfect" artist. So, I comment on those people's work that I admire, and those images that I know someone has spent a great deal of time on because of the level of extreme detail and the attention to that detail shows. SVDL is a good example. Yes, a majority of it is poser done, but the time spent shows. Every piece of dynamic cloth looks natural, every curve of the body is where it belongs, etc. SVDL doesn't slap on dynamic clothes, hair, etc, and leave it at that. You can tell that every detail imaginable was looked at from many different angles. And there are a few others like that, and when I see them I comment. But like I said before, that's a rare thing these days. But that's my opinion. Maybe a few hours to you is a long time to create a picture, or you don't have the time to do 100's of test renders. But it shows. Oh well, I am not going to keep going on. Just remember this. I never once said what is posted here isn't art...because it is. Just not to me personally. I asked myself a rhetorical question aloud on paper and was slammed. Guess that's what happens when you post on a public forum that has an immense sea of different personalities. You rub 98% of them the wrong way. Don't worry, lesson learned. Good-bye renderosity! Happy rendering, drawing, creating, or whatever else you want to call it.

I hope you still read this. Don't go because you don't get comments. Don't because of this tread of mails. I will tell you something simular to this site: I make dance and disco mixes as a hobby aswell. These mixes sometimes i upload to a group of mix fans. Then they get downloaded my hour mixes that takes about 2 months to make. And after 900 download i have zero zipp non 0,0 reactions on them. So never expect repley's or reactions comment or what ever. Show your work because you want to, i for one just check the views amount.. Some time i have 500 view no comment what so ever. So be it. And to you leaving this comunity thats a shame for us... But don,t take the short cut by just leaving because it does not give you what you think you deserve... You do have "fans" looking at the views on your images and who knows somebody is inspired by your work but you just dont know it. Sorry for the bad english my dutch is much better :} Chris

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Don't leave just because people disagree with you.. not one poster here has actually attacked you personally, just taken an opposite view to yours. Is that really a good reason to decide that you're not going to grace this site again, ever? jonthecelt

Don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. So why is ol' Sam being like this? Well, boys and girls, I'll tell you... First of all, I have absolutely no dispute with the fact that Prog and the others mentioned are damn good artists. I count prog as a friend and I have to say he has way too much class to wade in and start pontificating about how people should produce their artwork. The gent has mad skills and a first class personality. Avengia, on the other hand, seemingly cannot take someone having a contrary point of view without making a personal attack, as in post 17 of this thread. To then throw a tantrum and leave is not the action of anyone I would miss or wish to associate with. I generally stay away from online disputes but for the first time in a very long time Avengia's attitude has seriously brought me close to a TOS violation.

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lesee, first Avengia refers to another rosity member as a whore, then she says "Good-bye renderosity! Happy rendering, drawing, creating, or whatever else you want to call it." For some strange reason I find myself percieving this statement as an unspoken "whatever else you want to call it 'cause it aint Art". My bad if thats not the case but DAMN it really really really feels like it. Having read this thread, I find myself feeling that I am lumped into the "not and artist" category of this members perception. I have spent days, sometimes weeks test rendering every single lightset in a 24 or 48 lightset option package (mystic blue, mystic green, soft blue, etc etc etc) for best look. I have spent hours checking postures for realism, making sure people are standing not floating, custom morphing clothes with magnets for a better fit to characters, experimenting with materials to customize item appearances, checking multiple camera angles to confirm positionings etc etc. And all this means squat and im not an artist cause I didnt stop with the model bald and procede to paint my own hair? What about the time spend trying several different hairs on the model? What about all the textures tested before settling on the right one for the image? What about the hair pose chosen and any additional magnet morph adjustments? Again meaningless because it was done in poser and not on a wacom tab? Sorry, but from my perception, the problems in this tread originate from unfortunate choices of words to express an opinion, and needlessly offensive responses from the post originator, And I find myself not particularly enthused to fight to keep her around.....

i looked at Avengia's gallery.... I must say, I belive my "plastic hair" looks much better than his/her cartoon hair. from what i can see, avengia needs to concentrate on lighting, materials of the rendered parts, and composition/assembly of images. and in my opinion, if your going to use photograpic backgrounds, you need to strive for photographic (looking) foregrounds.

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Avengia, you wrote: "Why not push yourself to attempt something that maybe you don't think you can do?" Maybe people have tried to paint hair and can't do it, just like YOU tried painting the human body and can't do it. You admit that you can't paint the human body, but you berate people because they don't paint hair? It's nice to know you're so well versed in hypocrisy. Coldrake

Sam: Hard to let a door hit you in the ass on the way out, when so many people have already slammed it in your face. Everyone who felt like degrading me and being rude: Before I go, let me say one more thing. I NEVER made a personal attack on anyone's art. Never once did I say "so and so is not an artist, and what they do is not art". If you took it personal, then that is your own fault. That means that you are insecure with your own art, and feel that you need to defend it. If you like your art, then you should have just shrugged it off, and said to yourself "I am a wonderful artist, so I don't fall into her opinion." Unless, you just like to argue, then you're going to post no matter what. Everyone is an artist in their own way. I asked a hypothetical question with NO ONE particalar person in mind, and this is what I get. Do you all really have nothing better to do but sit here and spew meaness at someone you do not know??? Let me remind you...I attacked POSER and it's plastic looking materials. NOT the people who use them. I am merely voicing my opinion that those people who take the time to really work with the program are not recognized enough for their skills, nor are those who take the postwork and give it that one final touch. I didn't say theirs was better, or even worse. I merely pointed out a few people who you can TELL put a lot of time and effort into their work to give you examples of the stuff I like to view. More to give you an example of my choice of art. Did I tell you that you have to be like these people in order to be an artist? NO. Did I tell you that you even have to like these people's pieces? NO. Stop twisting my words to make me seem like big, huge, mean ugly person that likes to slander people. That is not me (unless I go on the extreme defensive, which is where I am now). Art is a form of expression...and I know this. You all post your pictures, and no one slanders you for it. I use my words, and I get trashed. Guess we all learned a lesson....it's no one's right to ask "what is art". So, using my artistic ability of words to express myself, I say this... Good Riddance!!

It's all been said before, and can never be resolved, 'cos different people have their own ideas and agenda. Horses for courses and all that. There's NO WAY to discriminate about taste/aesthetics, because it all depends on your own, personal upbringing and experience. It's what you like.... So there's no point in arguing about it. "Who are the better musicians? Mozart? Pink Floyd? Bob Dylan? The Beatles? Schubert" ... etc. It's all a matter of personal choice. There are no absolutes! Cheers, Diolma (who rates Beethoven...)

No offense to anyone, but I went to Avengia's gallery, and though s/he does demonstrate some skill in hair postworking, the few examples I looked at still come short (quality wise) of Kozaburo's free hair models, danae's Paradise hair, and Bliss Vision Hair (all of which I use extensively). So why spend time painting hair if one can pose superior quality hair for free? Unless one needs a style (or position) of hair not already available in a high quality model: e.g. "upside-down" hair or "lying flat on bed" hair.

"To me, it is no longer fun to look at a bunch of pictures of what looks like plastic people with plastic hair thrown in a plastic looking scene."

Gee, that's not insulting. By the way, don't you use those same "plastic" people and props that other people use?

"I am just wondering where all of the hard working, time spending painters have disappeared to."

They're probably painting, not complaining that other people aren't painting.

"Come on, put down the plastic hair and clothes, and grab that mouse/pen...see what magic you can create!"

You can create magic without painting.

"The other thing that bothers me is that there are some people (yes, me included) that do put hours and hours into their pictures, and get only a few comments."

Is that the purpose of your artwork, to get comments?

"Yes, a few of the scenes are quite nice, but none of it looks real to me."

Do you really believe that your images look "real"?

"They are yours, created by your hand, and have YOUR style."

You can have your own style without painting.

"All I wanted to say was that I miss the good old days of poser before all the high tech, fancy-smancy premade shit came out."

Kind of like the Poser figures and props that you use?

"All I'm pointing out is that those that do take the days and days to create 90% of their picture aren't getting the credit they deserve versus those that go into poser and throw some things into a picture in a half hour."

"I have gotten it down to where I can put together a picture in no time at all."

So which is it, do you take days and days to create an image, or do you really put together a picture in no time at all? So your criteria for getting the credit an image deserves is the amount of time spent working on it. OK.......

"I find myself skipping over a lot of pictures lately as I browse the gallery because to me, they all seem the same."

"Every stroke that is painted is done by hand, one by one. And yes, a lot of them look similiar."

I....... nah, I think think those two quotes are pretty well self explanatory.

Newsflash: Painting is not the be all-end all of digital artwork

'Nuff said.

Coldrake

Avengia, you were highly insulting, not only to those who use Poser but also to those who create content for it. And you did this in the Poser forum no less. Of course people were going to rip you a new one. What did you expect? And now you want to pretend that you're the injured party? Please... You should have just made an apology instead of digging yourself in deeper and 'leaving' in a childish snit.

"You don't know what we can see
Why don't you tell your dreams to me
Fantasy will set you free." - Steppenwolf

What did you expect? Perhaps for everyone to suddenly say, "Wow, you're SO RIGHT! I see the error of my ways! I'll starting painting hair IMMEDIATELY!" bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

rofl I deal with childish tantrums on a daily basis but they are usually from toddlers and teenagers ;o)

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.
If you can't eat it or play with it,
Pee on it and walk away

I see absolutely nothing wrong with using Poser hair vs. painted hair. Its a matter of preference. I know that you didn't mean to imply that poser hair is not hair but it does sound like it. Kiwi: I use Paint Shop Pro too. I know its a pain in the rear. Many of the tuts can be done using Paint Shop Pro doing some tweaking. My fave tut is my Kirisute at Daz. Or you can go with psd layers. Ilona does some excellent ones called "Instant Hair". And psd layers can be opened into Paint Shop Pro.

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Good thing i decided to look at this thread right when it's almost gone.. I admire you all cold blooded people, i know i wouldn't be like that to her/him.

I don't know if this has been mentioned yet, but it's a real waste of time to hand paint each and every frame of animation. 3D is meant to be animated, and posable hair is a good solution that's faster than both dynamic hair and hand painting. I'm glad hair modelers are getting very skilled at posable hair. This is a good thing. It's up to the skill of the end user to be original. bB

Oopps! Just reread, "I know that you didn't mean to imply that poser hair is not hair but it does sound like it." I meant "I know that you didn't mean to imply that poser hair is not art but it does sound like it." This is what I get when I drink 5 Mike's Hard Lemonade within an half an hour before posting this. LOL

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I don't see anything cold blooded about defending yourself about the 1st post. Makes me wonder if the postie read what he/she wrote. It did come off very harsh and berating(sp?) to those that don't do it thier way. Animation has been mentioned. "Now, I for one would not have enough time to animate painted hair. 15 to 24 fps. Wooh, not in my lifetime." But I agree, Hair maodelers have come a long way to help with that. Yet, we still need to spend hours posing that hair in an animation.

Wow, do you people really have nothing better to do than run someone off just because she posts her opinion? Just remember, your opinion isn't necessarily the right one either. Instead of ripping apart every word she said and making her feel bad, you could have just ignored the post. Way to go!! I, for one, love looking at her work. I'm not a poser expert, in fact I don't even use the program, but her work is very beautiful. It's not perfect, has its flaws, but what work doesn't? Even DiVinci's Mona Lisa wasn't the greatest piece of work, but people still rave over it and google in awe at. Avengia, I'm sorry this happened to you. And I will really miss your work. I hope that even though you don't post here anymore, you still continue to make the beautiful pictures you have been making. Don't let all these fools keep you down. (The funny part is, I've seen some of these people comment on your work and tell you how great it is, yet they come here and belittle you. Honest comments?? Or a desperate attempt to get one more person to look at their work...you be the judge!)

beryld: What i meant was that i wouldn't be so nice on her with the arrogant attitude she had towards many of us. DarsivRB: Funny you say that, she's allowed to make many feel bad and answer back, but she can't take the answers? As for your last sentence, it's so inflamatory it's not even worth a comment.

@ Guild. I stand corrected, sometimes you can't tell my first language is English, or maybe I should start wearing my first ever pair of glasses. A draw back of age. LOL.

I do animation. Painted hair is too time-consuming for animation. -jjsemp

beryld: Or maybe it was my fault, as English is not my first language. :-)

the german word for art, Kunst, has the same origin as the word Koennen, basically: ability, skill. from this POV a plumber would be as well an artist as somone who is painting hair. art-talks......yawn!

It did come off very harsh and berating(sp?) Not to mention condescending. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I just went and checked for this person's gallery, and she no longer exists. I wish I could have seen her work, to see what all the to-do is about. I'm new here, and was browsing the forums when I came across this post. She's gone, yet you all are still going on? What's the point? Oh well...off to post my first picture. Hope you all like it! Ciao!

Alessiya, all that matters is that YOU like it! It's impossible to create something that everyone will like, so don't even bother trying to please everyone. Set out to please yourself and in the process you will also please those who have the same taste and appreciation for the kind of art that you do.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I do like it! If I didn't, I would have trashed it, and never dared show it here Giggle

She's gone, yet you all are still going on?

Oh, beating the dead horse is a long-term Renderosity tradition.

And besides, very often when people "leave" they don't really go. They hang around and see what people are saying, and sometimes they come back with a different name to see what's going on. So if there was anything that someone wanted that person to see, well, if they're still hanging around, they'd see it.

And if they're not, well, there's nothing more Renderosity than a good old bitchfest. ;-)

bonni Message edited on: 03/26/2006 02:53

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

I strictly seperate 3D-art from 2D-art for myself.If I have to postwork my renderings then either I ,or my 3D-tool or we both have failed.I would get mad postworking a whole 500 frames animation.Don't get me wrong I like this artwork but the Poser5 Promo pic could have also been a Painter Promo .

What's the purpose of using a 3d render program when you paint all over it? Wouldn't it be then much cheaper to take a photo of a nekkid Barbie doll and use that as a base for your painting skills?

scnr

Message edited on: 03/26/2006 05:26

Every organisation rests upon a mountain of secrets ~ Julian Assange

Has the dust settled yet?

I'm still pondering the original question "Would I like plastic or paper?", and I must say I don't get it. Is this some sort of zen?

What I'd really like is a fab renderer that can do full density collision based dynamic strand-based hair with full physics (thinking here of at least "final fantasy : the spirits within" - sort of quality) in mere minutes and without needing a render farm or software that costs an arm and a leg. In the meantime I will use the best alternatives that are available - which I think are prop based Poser hair by Kozaburo, 3Dream and Quarker (amongst others) which I can actually use.

I rather think, the now departed, Avengia managed to ruffle loads of feathers in the Poser nest and then acted all surprised that she got a negative reaction - all over what is really a bit of a daft issue.

I'd like to take this opportunity to feed back some comments to Avengia - because she indicated that she really works for the comments. I did have a chance to have a reasonable browse through her (more recent) work and I must say:

• She has real talent for painting hair,
• Some of her scenes and characters are really lovely,
• Some of the painted clothes do look a little painted-on,
• Few of the scenes had more than a single character,
• Most of the characters I saw were almost expressionless or quite sad looking and were often gazing straight ahead (which - for me - makes them look dead-eyed and rather unreal),
• I did feel that there was a lot of similarity in subject matter - i.e. a sad faced, beautiful woman against a new dramatic backdrop.

Anyway, Avengia, I truly wish you good luck - where ever you end up. I have no hard feelings about you belittling my (our) lack of digital painting talents or the fact that you think most of what we do isn't art and looks the same - and plastic!

Two years in and still really enjoying Poser (when I get the time) and I'm not leaving (even if I get no comments or bad comments).

TTFN, Jovial.

[edited for spellings!]

Message edited on: 03/26/2006 05:49

There's not much point in arguing with someone who says, "The tools I use are better than the tools you use, Philistine!" That kind of narcissistic myopia has been with us most likely since the beginnings of art ("You think Trog's cave horse art! Hmph! Him not use fingers, use sharp stick!"). The list of "new" art forms that were sniffed at by purists is unwieldy. Having Photoshop mavens sniff at Poser mavens suggests a mayfly's concept of "old." I'm not a trained artist, I'm a self-taught pretty much everything in my life but writer. What I spend my time on in Poser is narrative, and I don't expect anyone to be thinking, "Is it real or is it Photoshop" when the picture is done. Goya's paintings do not look real, thank you, and I'm fine with that. Even Fragonard's ruff degenerates into lumps of oil eventually, as you close in on it. I'm not interested in impressing people with how real my hair looks or the anatomically accurate pores on my Jessi texture's nose. If somebody wants to spend three days in Photoshop getting exactly the right color gradients to create photorealistic Hubbard squash, more power to him. But I'd appreciate the same respect for where I choose to spend my creative energy. Results matter, not tools. M

((("You think Trog's cave horse art! Hmph! Him not use fingers, use sharp stick!"))) It's a good thing I wasn't taking a drink when I read that... it would have come out my nose! ROFL!!! :D

"You don't know what we can see
Why don't you tell your dreams to me
Fantasy will set you free." - Steppenwolf

Neylour: My pleasure. And by the way, I DON'T think this sort of discussion is "beating a dead horse." The horse ain't dead, and it kicks and bites anyone who gets near. The point is not that we "know" someone is wrong, but that we discuss how and why we know it, to make sure it is knowledge and not just the accepted, self-serving prejudices of the community. If we don't discuss these things, we run the danger of burning witches who happen to be right. M

Goya's paintings do not look real Very few great painters did paintings that looked "real". They did paintings that were beautiful, that called certain things to mind, that set certain moods and made certain statements, but a careful study of art history (which I happen to have done) shows that pretty much EVERYTHING is idealized in one way or another, unreal in some ways, altered to fit the artist's vision or the fashion of the day, etc. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

pretty much EVERYTHING is idealized The strange thing about art is that there seems to always be this tension between "looking real" and conveying whatever is being "expressed." I look at Caravaggio and the hopelessly cardboard faces painted by his contemporaries, and I have to admit that what appeals to me is his "realism," the sense that this is what I would have seen if I had been there. But I think realism is a craft. And it's a selective craft. We get exercised about the realism of Michelangelo's skin textures (vs., say, the concrete Impresssionism of a Rodin) and we fail to observe, or take into account, that his women are essentially men with apples on their chests. Touched by the emotional weight of the work, we look for crafts to praise, because what really draws us is outside the realm of language. Even with Caravaggio, realism is in service of art, not the other way around. It is the stark truth of the light in the death of the virgin that gives the picture its emotional weight. If what we see is simply, "Wow, good IBL!" then we are missing the point, however well we may be learning our craft. Still, if bad "IBL" distracts from the emotional effect, the picture is ruined. Art without craft is no more whole than craft without art. M

Euh... ELVIS has Left the building Guy's thats why the music stopt..... :} Chris

Not used anymore

I look at Caravaggio and the hopelessly cardboard faces painted by his contemporaries, and I have to admit that what appeals to me is his "realism," the sense that this is what I would have seen if I had been there. I saw a Caravaggio exhibit a couple years ago. My favorite piece was a painting of fruit. It was the sexiest damned fruit I've ever seen in my life. I'll never think of plums the same way again... The thing is, that's not realistic. I don't normally find fruit sexy (not even plums, although I do look at them a bit differently now ;-). But the painting was so sensual and so beautifully (and I'm sure deliberately) suggestive, I couldn't help but think of, well, a lot of things. We get exercised about the realism of Michelangelo's skin textures (vs., say, the concrete Impresssionism of a Rodin) and we fail to observe, or take into account, that his women are essentially men with apples on their chests. I don't. And people who really study art don't. And besides, Michelangelo always used male models, so his women really are men with breasts plopped on their chest (sometimes at strange angles) and their naughty bits tucked away. :-) Touched by the emotional weight of the work, we look for crafts to praise, because what really draws us is outside the realm of language. Yes, exactly. bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

Bonni-- I'm not sure what you mean by "realistic." And I certainly don't think that "all there is" in Caravaggio is "realism." Hence my last comment. What I mean by "realistic" is the sense that this is what I would have seen if I had been there. Not that my eye would have "found" in the fruit (which were, according to M, intended to be as close to obscene as 'real' fruit could get) what Caravaggio found, but that what he found in some sense was there, rather than something he added. (And not that I sniff politely at the notion that artists "add" things. I like finders and adders equally. It's fakers I find add nothing.) All art is "not real," ultimately, in that it represents something else. (I'm not convinced that even the most modern, abstract art ever just 'is.') When we use the word "realism" about art, we mean it is like real things, so the word is already relative: How much is it like them? Caravaggio approaches photorealism and his contemporaries usually do not. He is not the best of them because he is more "realistic," except that, well, part of what makes him "best" is that sense that here, finally, are real people in real houses suffering real pain and joy. The ultimate adder appears to just find. As for the "apples," my point was that when we talk about "realistic," we are always selecting elements to discuss. I find Rodin's gouged surfaces just as "realistic" as the luminous males Michelangelo sculpted, but lots of folks would say, "You WHAT?". And some would agree with me. When photography rolled in, folks considered it not "art" because it was too real. But the "reality" was just another way of representing, and not a very good one at first. What is "real" about holding still for three minutes so someone can expose a glass plate adequetely? And now the regularity of digital blotches is considered less "real" than the irregularity of halide blotches in photos, even though both are just representations of the "real." It comes down to the idea that art is regular, reality irregular, but that is just one more theology. Thorny concept, much snagging of clothes. M

Well, M, I was mostly agreeing with you, mate. ;-) Personally, I've always thought that "realism" is seriously overrated. There's a story, almost certainly apocryphal, but still good, about Picasso (who could, just for the record, draw very beautifully and very accurately). The story goes that someone objected to Picasso's cubist/surrealist stuff and complained that women don't really look like that, etc. Picasso said, "Really? What do they look like?" and the man pulled a photo out of his wallet and said, "There. Like that. That's my wife." To which Picasso replied, "Ah. I see. Then your wife is small, flat, two-dimensional, and fits in your wallet?" :-D bonni

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

"Personally, I've always thought that "realism" is seriously overrated. " Hmmm. Overrated? Traditionally, for the longest time, the purpose of art was to convey what things looked like. You could be portraying something that existed in real life or you could be portraying something fictional (the fictional part being where photography falls short). Either way, artists tried to make it as realistic a representation as possible. They tried to capture what the person, place, or thing looks like as accurately as possible. How similar the art looks like to the thing itself was a measure of how talented the artist was. Making art less realistic became viewed as new and modern, and thus sought after, which meant they had to keep making art less realistic in order to continue being new and modern. Realism is what 3D was created for to begin with. It became a way to capture or reproduce something that might be far too inefficient or difficult to do in reality. It wasn't until people realized how much more efficient animation could be done in 3D did NPR (Non Photorealistic Rendering) become the new fad. Still, Photorealism in 3D remains the hardest thing to produce. Not only on a skill level, but also on a technological level (render times, etc). It's still considered the "holy grail" in 3D, because so FEW people can do it well. All these new IBL and ambient occlusion features in Poser 6 still don't produce the ultimate photorealistic scene/animation. Still takes tons and tons of time and effort to get it looking right. NPR, however, is much less time consuming and requires less resources to accomplish. So overrated? Perhaps, but I'm still striving to achieve it.

Traditionally, for the longest time, the purpose of art This is, actually, the purpose of Western Art, for a portion of its history. A good deal of art attempts to convey what things are, which is much different from "what they look like." And the "what things look like" Grail is a bit of a merchant-class red herring, frankly, even in Western Art. Most artists try to convey "what they saw," which is vastly not "what was there." Ask Van Gogh. What we see is culturally/cognitively/subjectively conditioned. To see what I mean, try an exercise as simple as looking at pictures of white men in the art of Asia and Indian America. (Specifically, check out the Pacific Coast tribes' and Japan's interestingly convergent picture of gaijin.) Unless you subscribe to the archaic notion that non-Western Art is imperfect Western Art (those poor Chinese, if only they had discovered the vanishing point!), which is both racist and myopic, then you are left with a huge body of representational art that is not "realistic." People could identify which geisha a broadside depicted, so they saw what the painter saw in some sense. That is, it is not realistic in that it does not represent what I would have seen if I had looked at the geisha. The quest for realism is not an end, but a means. We try, in our art, to modulate distractions and focus attention. A foot that doesn't bend that way or a light that can't shine where it is shining (guess what program's lights I've been swearing at this morning!) draws attention to itself. If you don't want people to look at the foot, bending it wrong is a bad idea. If you don't want people to stare at the nostrils, you don't let the &#;&$%&* light come out of them. The end is getting people to look at what you want them to see, whether it is the color of light at Clichy, the ugliness under a glaze of beauty, the elegance of the curves in an olive, or the chaos of sudden death. Realism helps tell them where to look, but it isn't usually what we want them to see. Goya stopped using "realism" to get his effects, and painted his greatest works on the walls of his house. Realism is a craft that serves art. M

"Traditionally, for the longest time, the purpose of art was to convey what things looked like" an addendum to mickmca's post... There are (of course) at least two ways of looking at this. "Art" did not exist for the "longest time". "Art" (in the sense is is now used) did not really arrive until around the time of the Renaissance. Up until then, (from cave painting through Egyptian to Byzantium), what we now call "Artists" were considered "craftsmen" (on a similar level to carpenters stone-masons, weavers etc.) That's a far longer time than since the Renaissance. OTOH, nowadays, the "Artistic world" tends to group all that old stuff under the "Art" bracket... Art CANNOT be classified. It's subjective. It's a way of thought (either by tuition, upbringing or genetic tendencies, maybe more), and nobody can decry someone else's work and say "it's not art". They are perfectly entitled to say "I don't like it"..... More, criticising anyone for the METHOD by which they arrived at their product is even less productive or meaningful. I'm not going to post in this thread again. It's a waste of time... After all I'm not using pen and ink to write this post, I'm using a (gasp! shock! horror! ) computer keyboard!!! Cheers, Diolma (Which is why discussions like this are pointless....)

"Realism is a craft that serves art."

Uhm, of course it is. No argument there.

My point, however, is that in order to understand the craft of 3D in its entirety, and evolve your own artistic style, realism (specifically, Photorealism) is something all 3D "artists" should strive to achieve at some point in their learning process. There are many reasons why, not the least of which is a better overall understanding of the application, tools, lights, cameras, materials, and models.

The mastery of realistic rendering is still a lofty goal in 3D; it's usually the reason why technology progresses in the field, and one of the most sought-after capabilities in the VFX and architectural industries (where 3D is used most often). Combining 3D elements seamlessly with live action footage to produce visual effects for movies or visualizations, etc. is where the use of 3D is most relied upon commercially.

Message edited on: 03/26/2006 15:06

Diolma: I can't think of anything stranger than someone who interrupts a conversation to announce that the topic is boring. And capping it with the cliche about how art is totally subjective is wonderful. That must be why we wander around muttering, "Caravaggio... Vallejo.... No deefferance!!" Enjoy. M

I'm not saying that Avengia is wrong - if she left this community then its for the wrong reasons, we all think differently and think of art in many shapes and forms -thats why its ART. Quote by Avengia "If you are wondering of the people I am talking about that I admire for their hard work, here are a few wonderful people that I am proud to call artists. Check out their work: Bez, Prog, pjaj, Vali, Rhiannon, Magician, Antje, Crasher, Sand tyger, Cimerone just to name a few. IMO, these people truly demonstrate the meaning of art" I know for a fact that Vali who is a good friend of mine - is always on the look out to learn new techniques to add to her skills...so can that be said for the rest of us? hell yes!! Some people are great with the tablet, others (which i am in awe of) are great with painting cloth and hair with a mouse!............. Proud to call artists? - so - tell me - i think i'm an artist but thats not cause i paint or draw, art is a form in many shapes and sizes... writing is an art, for example...... So avengia, sad to see you go - .... for the wrong reasons................

Either way, artists tried to make it as realistic a representation as possible.

I can see you haven't studied much art history.

I'm not going to argue with you about it, but I suggest you go back and look at art from about the Byzantine era right through to the Renaissance and see just how much "realism" you find. It's all very flat and very two-dimensional, and much of it has extremely skewed perspectives that are in NO WAY realistic. Even sculptures were, for hundreds and hundreds of years, extremely stylized and unrealistic (just in 3D rather than 2D).

It was only in Renaissance that people started to actually portray light and dark (chiaroscuro) and even then the figures and objects were highly stylized and not very "realistic".

This continues to this day. Art is not real life, and it shouldn't have to be.

I was, in fact, talking about art in a general sense, not about computer generated 3D images, specifically. And by the way, South Park is all done in Maya, and it is, officially, 3D. Pretty "realistic" don't you think?

bonni Message edited on: 03/26/2006 19:23

"When a man gives his opinion, he's a man. When a woman gives her opinion, she's a bitch." - Bette Davis

"I can see you haven't studied much art history."

You got me. I only studied a little.

"I suggest you go back and look at art from about the Byzantine era right through to the Renaissance and see just how much "realism" you find."

I'll definitely do that.

"And by the way, South Park is all done in Maya, and it is, officially, 3D. Pretty "realistic" don't you think?"

Actually, it wasn't ALL done in Maya. Maya was used only after the 5th season. Before that, another 3D program was used (I believe 3dsmax, but could be mistaken there). However, the first episode was done with construction paper, so... to answer your question... YES, I think it looks very realistic. Just like the real construction paper cutouts used in the first episode! It looks SO much like construction paper cutouts, that people still believe it's done that way.

"Art is not real life, and it shouldn't have to be."

I'm not arguing this point. In fact, I agree. The only point I was making, again, has to do with the fact that striving for realism in 3D is what drives the industry, and is definitely the most difficult style to achieve, due not only to the user's capability, but also the limitations of their hardware/software. It's also the most VALUABLE skill to possess in this medium. How can one develop a unique artistic style if they never fully grasp the extent of their tools? I don't think there's any doubt Photorealistic rendering in 3D requires the most extensive knowledge of one's tools; from materials/texturing, to modeling, to actual rendering. Mastery of these techniques certainly opens the door to other types of styles, and makes functioning in a 3D environment much easier. To this, I say it cannot be overrated, because it truly is the essence of the genre. "I was, in fact, talking about art in a general sense, not about computer generated 3D images, specifically." I see. Well, then I guess I was misguided by your original post then.

Message edited on: 03/26/2006 20:37

I guess I can see Avengia's point to some extent. I too prefer a more natural/realistic approach to poserwork. To me, simple things quietly stated can be more moving than attempts to make striking images. Here are two samples of my work - poor lighting, almost everything free stuff etc. etc., but I'm only new to this. I prefer to use good hair (Kozaburo) to start with and have no experience painting hair. Keep up the spirited debate.
Thanks to Kozaburo, Yagami and many others for their freestuff.

I would say that most art from the renaissance is realistic it is not photorealistic but some of it comes close.

To answer the original question, not everyone can draw hair well and if you want to draw in hair, why not just draw in the figure also?

Message edited on: 03/27/2006 03:46

Part of my problem with this thread, besides the obvious insults, is that she is complaining that most of the gallery images appear fake with "plastic hair". However she doesn't see that she's pushing to have everyone turn the gallery into images that all have been heavily post worked. Exchanging one clone for another so to speak. For me personally, I like the diversity of the gallery. Sure there are images there that I don't personally care for, but that's the nature of art. We like some things and not others. When I got Poser I had used Paint Shop Pro for about 5 years and was totally bored with it. I didn't work in another program, just that one. I had come to a point where I almost entirely stopped using plugins and filters to achieve effects and spent hours and hours working with dozens of layers and blend modes etc in order to recreate effects or come up with ones of my own. On average it took me a week to make a single image. I even got a graphic tablet which I didn't like much mainly because of the small size and that it felt awkward. I was so bored with just using Paint Shop Pro that I had actually stopped creating anything because I was bored out of my skull. I remembered a program called Poser that someone mentioned to me so I decided to give it a try. I tried it and I liked it! I'm also of the opinion that Poser can put together a whole scene. You are still being creative with concept, placement, composition, lighting, textures, colours etc. So why not spend time learning how to compose a nice looking scene that doesn't require heavy post work to look good? If I wanted to digital paint 90% of my image I wouldn't have invested in Poser. Like others have already said, I want to use Poser to the max that it can be used and rely very litte on post working my images. If some people don't like my images because I use premade hair, tough noogies!!! I like them, and that's all that really matters in the end. I create because it makes me feel good to have made something that I think is "pretty". I'm not changing my technique or style for anyone, especially someone who has such a narrow outlook on what "art" is.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Not to sound to prissy, but who is the greater "artist": The person who paints realistic hair in postwork? Or the person who uses a premade hair figure/prop and makes it look realistic inside Poser (or whatever program they use to render)? IMHO, both people are great artists, just as a painter and photographer are considered artists. I don't have a problem with people who do a lot of postwork, or none at all. I have a problem with people who think their way is the only correct way and that I'm not as good if I'm not even trying to do things their way. I'm sorry Avengia decided to leave because people didn't agree with her (well, that might be saying it a little mildly), but it does sound similar to other people declaring their abandonment of 'Rosity. Sure, I like comments and views of things I post, but unless I'm doing something for someone else, all my images are for me, and I post them here incase someone else might like them. I happen to like large breasts (though I will do women with smaller endowments if I think it's more appropriate for the image) and none of the griping that occurs on this forum about a proliferation of "huge breasts" is going to make me stop (or go away :P). It saddens me when a person lets their opinions rule what they think others should do, and don't consider reasons or differences with an open mind. -modus0

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If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.

"I have a problem with people who think their way is the only correct way and that I'm not as good if I'm not even trying to do things their way." round of applause

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I'm happy being a plastic artist.........

I'm guessing Spaz Plastic doesn't have a problem looking plastic...

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If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.