Hi Everyone,

Normally I don't post, MAINLY because I simply just don't have the time; but something's been happening over the past little while that I find not quite disterbing..... but more dissapointing.

I've noticed that the tone of a number of commentors AND artists has been getting a little out of hand. While an artist who clicks the comment option on should expect that not everyone is going to like or even approve of the images a person chooses to post, a commentor who decides to leave a negative comment should know the difference between Critique and Criticism, and an artist sould be able to either defend or justify their work.

Critique is where a person comments about what they like and don't like while offering their suggestions on weither or not they feel anything could be changed or improved (if there is anything) in a CONSTRICTIVE manner.

Criticism is wher some JACKASS uses comments such as "this is sh*T" or some other durogitory or insultive statement while offering no reasoned opinion.

While I'm not saying we should have a 60's Koom-Bye-YAAA moment we all deserve a certain amount of mutual - if not respect - civility.

The great thing about this community is that there are so many different types of artists, hobbiests, and professionals who have decided to make Renderosity their home (yeah I know I'm starting to sound sappy but just stay with me here .... I'm not going to get to the toxic Barny level).

Basically I'm saying it comes down to this..... If you're going to be an ASS be one somewhere else.... If you don't feel up to reading other people's opinions DON'T click on the comment option.

One suggestion I've made to the administrators is to give we the artists the ability to delete any comments attached to our art that we find offencive in addition to being able to report the person who made the comment .... what do you think:blink:

I personally don't worry about that, because I have pretty much given up posting renders here, because no matter how good my render is I don't get any feedback at all or hits either for that matter. Since I don't spend much time here and its a well known fact that if you are not in a clique here you won't get comments or hits.

But I agree that if all someone is going to do is say this sucks or her boobs are too big or why is she naked or even the "you're a pervert" then they should not even bother.

I’m glad you brought this up because this is something that’s been bothering me too.

I’m a magnet for negative comments simply because I make pinup artwork depicting women with disproportionate breasts. I’m very proud of the work that I do and I completely understand that it’s not for all tastes. I’ve had plenty of people give my images low ratings because of the subject matter and I believe that’s completely unfair. That would be the same thing as me seeing a render of 2 men holding hands and saying “Your work sucks because I’m not gay!” Of course I’m above that.

If I have any actual criticism about an image that I feel is worth the artist’s attention, I’m very respectful about it. “I think doing this or changing that would really do your piece some justice.”

I’m all for giving the artist the ability to remove derogatory comments, but in a way that would defeat the purpose of even having a rating system in the galleries.

These jackasses just need to keep their political/religious/sexual/self-gratifying opinions to themselves and focus on the goddamned artwork.

AND DON’T DO DRUGS!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/viewed.ez?galleryid=1221873&Start=1&Artist=zollster&ByArtist=Yes

i had a person comment on this pic....i sent them a "polite" email telling them what they could do... i got a reply back saying i could do the same.... i then sent them an email actually explaining that their comment was not really a critique,(and explaining what a critique is), it just made them look like a troll. i have yet to have a reply from this person...

Yeah the funny thing is there are more trolls here than other sites.

Just a quick add-on.... If anyone reading this thread posts in another community, please let me know which one and what you think about it in comparison to renderosity.

i post a lot on renderotica as your_master.... theres hardly any trolls over there and i've got to know a lot of the pervs and deviants.......i like to be in good company :D

Hey zollster,
The jackhole that made the comment about your pic doesn't even have his/her own gallery...OF COURSE!
Sheesh!

Oh.... here we go with the "You have no gallery so you may not have an opinion" argument.

I can not play piano,so does that mean I am not capable of knowing what piano music I like and what piano music I don't like.

I don't like all the negative comments either but that argument just doesn't have anything to do with it. and gets real old.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

it's probably best to disable comments and ratings, as they can be disappointing. it's also risky to post an image in hopes of peer approval, as negative comments, too few comments (or even the absence of any comments) can be damaging to the psyche. regarding the concept that some are more equal than others (in cases where a troll has no gallery), I haven't seen that tiresome idea dredged up in several months, but I've seen it here and everywhere too many times to count. I reckon that such a fallacy requires one to believe that positive comments only matter if they come from those with galleries, which is also false.

Quote - Hi Everyone,

Normally I don't post, MAINLY because I simply just don't have the time; but something's been happening over the past little while that I find not quite disterbing..... but more dissapointing.

I've noticed that the tone of a number of commentors AND artists has been getting a little out of hand. While an artist who clicks the comment option on should expect that not everyone is going to like or even approve of the images a person chooses to post, a commentor who decides to leave a negative comment should know the difference between Critique and Criticism, and an artist sould be able to either defend or justify their work.

Critique is where a person comments about what they like and don't like while offering their suggestions on weither or not they feel anything could be changed or improved (if there is anything) in a CONSTRICTIVE manner.

Criticism is wher some JACKASS uses comments such as "this is sh*T" or some other durogitory or insultive statement while offering no reasoned opinion.

While I'm not saying we should have a 60's Koom-Bye-YAAA moment we all deserve a certain amount of mutual - if not respect - civility.

The great thing about this community is that there are so many different types of artists, hobbiests, and professionals who have decided to make Renderosity their home (yeah I know I'm starting to sound sappy but just stay with me here .... I'm not going to get to the toxic Barny level).

Basically I'm saying it comes down to this..... If you're going to be an ASS be one somewhere else.... If you don't feel up to reading other people's opinions DON'T click on the comment option.

One suggestion I've made to the administrators is to give we the artists the ability to delete any comments attached to our art that we find offencive in addition to being able to report the person who made the comment .... what do you think:blink:

If you don't think you will like the comments you may receive, don't post the damn picture. Think that's harsh? What about the vandalism and outrght nastiness that has faced Picasso, Dali. van Gogh over the years?

IMO, if you want to live in a world of fluffy bunnies, don't ever post anything anywhere. Otherwise, have the balls to post it and take the knocks. Life and art ain't about fairness, justice or kindness. Anyone who thinks it is is only going to cry a whole hell of a lot.

I would absolutely not give any artist - myself included - the ability to delete comments. You post it, you deserve all the comments you get, be they good or bad.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Quote - Oh.... here we go with the "You have no gallery so you may not have an opinion" argument.

i don't think that was the meaning of the no gallery post......just that is usually the case

I agree Nancy.

Never will you here this.

"Can you believe it?...someone just left a glowing comment on my image,and can you believe that he doesn't even have a gallery?..How DARE him"

The argument is like saying that people that have no gallery,are smart enough to know what they DO like, but not smart enough to know what they don't like.

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Quote - Oh.... here we go with the "You have no gallery so you may not have an opinion" argument.

i don't think that was the meaning of the no gallery post......just that is usually the case

And I will say it again...

If you want to live in a world of fluffy bunnies, don't ever post anything anywhere. Otherwise, have the balls to post it and take the knocks. Life and art ain't about fairness, justice or kindness. Anyone who thinks it is is only going to cry a whole hell of a lot.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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i dont recall sayin anywhere in my posts i wanted to live in a world populated by fluffy bunnies...i find them quite scary. if you look at my gallery i have quite a few pics posted and many more over at renderotica so i think i am well prepared to take the abuse of trolls, and as stated in the very first post about writing actual critiques instead of just abuse i don't care if people put comments on my work saying its crap but i would like to know why they think its crap.

Well said SamTherapy! ;)

Life is like a box of chocolates lol

Quote - i dont recall sayin anywhere in my posts i wanted to live in a world populated by fluffy bunnies...i find them quite scary. if you look at my gallery i have quite a few pics posted and many more over at renderotica so i think i am well prepared to take the abuse of trolls, and as stated in the very first post about writing actual critiques instead of just abuse i don't care if people put comments on my work saying its crap but i would like to know why they think its crap.

Life is full of injustices and last time I looked, there was no requirement to say why anyone thought anything was crap. If they do, they do. If they don't, they don't. Take it of leave it. If you believe in what you do, fuck 'em all and get on with it. It's the only way to fly.

You may not have said you wanted fluffy bunnies but it's the same thing; you want fairness, honesty and justification. Ain't gonna happen. It's a public gallery and the public are there, loud, sweaty and generally obnoxious. You get a nice word, count it as a plus. I had to censor the next bit but trust me, it was not pleasant.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Fluffy bunnies?

They're nasty, dirty, and they bite. A lot like some people I can think of.

Now that I've got that out of the way: If you leave a negative comment, at least have the cahones to tell the artist why you think his/her work is crap. Don't just slap them and run.

It's rather like hitting a car in traffic, and then leaving the scene. Rude at best, stupid and insensitive at worst.

Mind you, no-one is going to die over a bad comment, but if they won't learn anything if you just tell them to stick it up their rumps.

If, by some chance you're the artist that got trolled, ignore them. They're out of their heads. If they do it a lot, then talk to Administration for whatever website. More than likely, you're not the only one being trolled. There are ways to stop incessant pricks.

If you are the trolls that enjoy this hit and run crap, I have one thing to say:

If you hate my stuff that dratted much, then stop looking at it. IE is not rocket science here. Just click the little 'x' button and go away.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day

Quote - Fluffy bunnies?

They're nasty, dirty, and they bite. A lot like some people I can think of.

Now that I've got that out of the way: If you leave a negative comment, at least have the cahones to tell the artist why you think his/her work is crap. Don't just slap them and run.

It's rather like hitting a car in traffic, and then leaving the scene. Rude at best, stupid and insensitive at worst.

Mind you, no-one is going to die over a bad comment, but if they won't learn anything if you just tell them to stick it up their rumps.

If, by some chance you're the artist that got trolled, ignore them. They're out of their heads. If they do it a lot, then talk to Administration for whatever website. More than likely, you're not the only one being trolled. There are ways to stop incessant pricks.

If you are the trolls that enjoy this hit and run crap, I have one thing to say:

If you hate my stuff that dratted much, then stop looking at it. IE is not rocket science here. Just click the little 'x' button and go away.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day.

You're talking about fairness. There is no such animal. Stick your pics out there and take a risk. Some people will love your work, others will hate it. The majority will be indifferent. That's the way it is. Nothing fair, honest or nice about any of it. Shit happens, as they say.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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then i will create a new world order....... all will bow to me and say only nice things to me.....

terms and conditions......

by replying to this thread you accept my terms.....

zollster accepts no liablity for loss or damage to any persons worshipping him

vehicles left at own risk

your home may be at risk if you set fire to it.

Quote - You're talking about fairness. There is no such animal. Stick your pics out there and take a risk. Some people will love your work, others will hate it. The majority will be indifferent. That's the way it is. Nothing fair, honest or nice about any of it. Shit happens, as they say.

Nobody here nor there said a thing about fair. Life isn't fair. I was talking about the basic stupidity of people who insist on torturing themselves looking at crap they didn't want to see in the first place. Worse, it's something they had to try to stick their noses into.

They get no sympathy from me.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day

Woah There:huh:

Remember the purpose of this thread. It doesn't really matter if a person has a gallery or not (you can look at and comment on art without being an artist - and NO I DO NOT WANT TO GET INTO A DISCUSSION ABOUT WHAT IS AND ISN'T ART:glare:), It doesn't matter if you like an image or hate it, and it doesn't matter if you're a person who can only seek positive comments.

For the most part I agree with Sam, hawkfyr, and Nancy. Some of the early lessons we were taught at Emily Carr (Art College) was that if you couldn't take a critique you shouldn't be there - If you want controversy you'd better be able to back up your work (otherwise you deserve to get a strip ripped off of you), and you need to realize that while your image is in a public venue, you have no further control over it.

I'm not asking or wanting a "world of fluffy bunnies" (I only have so much gravol). My reasons for posting images is to get feedback from my fellow posters. If I didn't want to have any negative comments I wouldn't even bother posting in the first place. What I would LIKE is to find out if there is a general will of the members of this community to establish a level of etiquate (please pardon any spelling errors I may have made) where an artist gets critiqued instead of criticized (by the way I do live within this reality) or maybe see if any of you know of a better posting community.

Constructive criticism is the process of offering valid and well-reasoned opinions about the work of others with the intention of helping the reader or the artist, rather than creating an oppositional attitude. An art critic can also be a champion of a new artistic movement in the face of a hostile public (e.g. John Ruskin), using scholarship and insight to show the value and depth of a new style. Critics might even champion a wholly new art medium; for instance the century-long critical struggle to have photography recognised as a valid art form.

Criticism (also know as being a troll) is the activity of judgement or informed interpretation. In literary and academic contexts, the term most frequently refers to literary criticism, art criticism, or other such fields, and to scholars' attempts to understand the aesthetic object in depth. In these contexts the term "critic", used without qualification, most frequently refers to a scholar of literature or another art form. In other contexts, the term describes hostility or disagreement with the object of criticism.

Good for you jsmith.

some folks just can not take critique

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Gang,

Please keep in mind Trolling is against the TOS. And at any time you feel that a comment on your gallery post is Trolling etc. Contact any of the staff and we will be happy to look over the comment and remove if needed. There are no need for non-critique comments in the gallery.

Ryuslilangel

_____________________
.::That which does not kill us makes us stronger::.
-- Friedrich Nietzsche

Try to keep this in context. maciek76 comment "This looks like sh*t" This is an electronic booger dressed up to look like an opinion. We don't know how (s)he really felt about it because he flicked and ran. My guess is he didn't like the subject matter. But that's just a guess on my part. There are volumes of pictures posted here everyday that are (IMO) so much worse than zollster's pic. "Silenced" has been posed and lit which has so much more effort in it than other pics I've seen here. Unless maciek76 took the time to make the same comment on those "poor" pics I doubt his intent is anything more than to feel good in the hope of making someone else feel bad. There are so many reasons for posting pics here. Not everyone wants to be the next Brad Bird or Frank Frazetta. Whatever their reason, they have as much right to post as those who are aspiring to a greater level of expertise. Who has time to grade everyone? Or care to give a grade?

IMO, the 'net gets nastier every day. In just about any forum you visit, people resort to name calling and profanity, no matter what the subject. Part of it may be fallout from the "culture wars" and polarization of society. Part of it may just be that there is a much larger cross section of people online than therw was a few years ago. I think that the anonymous nature of online communication simply leads people to behave in ways they would never think of in person. Unfortunately, the reality is that if you post something, you have to assume that it will be stolen, distorted, flamed and defamed. Absent a miraculous change in human nature, I don't see that changing.

The only way to get rid of trolls is to go to paid membership. Few people are going to risk getting banned for trolling if they have to pay for the privilege, but I doubt many of us really want to go that route.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

As Kim said, please do let us know when people step over the line of harsh criticism into personal attacks, trolling and idiocy. "Looks like shit" is not a critique or criticism (well, not unless the image was a render of Ernyoka's Dog Poop prop... )

It turns out this particular troll had made similar comments on a number of other images, so I've removed the lot.

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Heh Karen.. yeah in that case "looks like shit" is a praise... but otherwise? No.

What I personally don't understand is why people bother to even look at, and comment on pictures that they clearly do not like.

I rarely look in the galleries here, not because I don't want to but because there's only so many hours in the day and browsing galleries takes a lot of time.

But say I really hated to look at pinups with big boobies. Would I then actively seek out that category and go through it?

Only if I wanted to punish myself (and there are far funnier ways of doing THAT)

I'm fully aware that my own pics aren't for everybody. A lot of people I know and otherwise respect doesn't even like them LOL BUT they don't go looking at them either, coz they KNOW it won't be their cuppa. Peace!

If you can't say something nice or at least constructive, STFU! And that goes no matter if you have a gallery or not!

I don't see the point in disabling comments here. Ratings I might agree to, but if you disable comments, what's the idea of posting the pic in the first place? Hell knows I post my pics to get comments. I live for feedback. I shamelessly admit that I'm a feedback junkie. I can sit and refresh the page if I've posted a new pic somewhere just to see the first feedback.

And some pics just don't GET any comments :'o(

Quote - If you can't say something nice or at least constructive, STFU!

That's very funny because "STFU" doesn't seem nice or constructive. : ) For the most part I agree with you, it takes away from your own personal time to leave comments so anyone who makes a comment like that is doing it to gets something out of it. Some kind of sadistic pleasure by denying someone else the joyful pleasure of feedback. In the right context, bad feedback can be great to get, more valuable even.

My limited experience of comments and ratings suggests that they rarely mean much, either way. When I bother to make one, I try to to be constructive and suggest some specific element that could be improved. But, looking back over how I respond to stuff on the net, I'm sure some people would accuse me of being too soft.

Ok here's my pennyworth - I post to the gallery, I get comments (sometimes). I take the approach that many people may take about their daily horoscope - if it's good, believe, if not, ignore. Luckily I haven't yet been trolled (xxx'd fingers). If someone said - "that's OK but maybe u could use a different light, POV, pose, etc" then I would be highly pleased, but if someone just condemned the render out of hand, then the problem is with them, not me.

As for comments made by me, I try to be as encouraging as possible. After all, there is more to life than Poser et al - though the hours I spend playing would maybe contradict that

Sheila

My aspiration: to make a decent Poser Render I'm an Oldie, a goldie, but not a miracle worker :-)

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Quote "....its a well known fact that if you are not in a clique here you won't get comments or hits"

I certainly don't consider myself to be in the clique here, but I generally do get quite a few comments (except for my last masterpiece - boo hoo). Thankfully all positive so far. Yes, I would be dissapointed to get a negative (non constructive) comment and very dissapointed to get an abusive, unthoughtful comment, but, c’est la vie.

I really don't like the idea of being able to remove comments you don't like. Some people will always be assholes and we have to live with this fact. Just don't take it to heart and don't let the stupidity of a small number of numb skulls affect you work - they're not worth it.

I really don't like the idea of being able to remove comments you don't like.

Well yeah, that's why you can't. If you enable comments, then you agree to take constructive criticism. We do get a number of requests every week to remove negative critiques on images. We don't remove them, however, as long as they are not attacking or obvious trolling.

In my own view, the most precious and useful critique is the harshest. "I really don't like the lighting in this, she looks seasick" is useful. "D00d this sucks were r the b00beez" or "Burn in hell you pervert" is definitely not.

When surfing the galleries, however, you do need to remember that most people here are pure hobbyists who have never taken any type of art class and whose last criqitue was probably their mother saying, "Ooh that's great, baby, I'm putting that on the refrigerator!" For some delicate souls, telling them that turning on "cast shadows" would improve their work no end appears to be akin to telling them they are a worthless human being who should commit seppuku before inflicting any more of their crap on the world.

So when commenting I tend to look out for people saying in the notes "Critique welcomed" or "Suggestions for improvement wanted". I'd rather not waste my carefully-considered comments on someone who won't appreciate them, anyway.

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Quote - Well said SamTherapy! ;)

Life is like a box of chocolates lol

yeah, and all the ones i pick have soft centres wrapped around razor blades ^^

"That which doesn't kill you is probably re-loading"

it's not all that common, the negative comments (at least not in my gallery..;)

to be honest, most of the 'negative' comments I get are 'c'mon Pakled, you can do better than this, we've seen it..;)' keeps me honest, anyways..;)

But I suppose it happens. As for the size of certain secondary characteristics; there is a small population within a standard devication or so that would have larger attributes..but that's what everyone makes pictures of. I'm sure there's morphs out there that would actually shrink said attributes, I just haven't seen them.

IF i leave a comment, it's because I like the picture, or see something I think can be fixed. A quick description, and a little encouragement at the end. Thus sayeth 'Pakled the Great'..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

What really pisses me off is when they give an insult,disguised as praise.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

deviantArt has a user selectable level of critique option for each image they post. You can set the level of critique desired and a notice will be displayed with the image describing the kind of critique you're looking for. It runs from:

Comments Disabled - no explanation needed.

Critique Discouraged - meaning you prefer not to receive critique-heavy comments. In other words, you prefer ego-stroking comments like "wonderful", "excellent", and other such comments.

Critique Welcome - meaning you feel indifferent about the intensity of critiques that a viewer may include in a comment. You don't discourage constructive criticism or fluff.

Advanced Critique Encouraged - meaning you openly invite all manner of advanced critique on your image. This is especially useful if you are actively working on improvements for a work of art. Fire away, you can take truthful, constructive criticism.

This is a scheme that Renderosity might consider at some point in the future. In the meantime, you can always leave a similar notice in the notes field when you upload an image. No, it probably won't stop the trolls, but it will give the general viewing public an idea of what you look for in a comment, and it might even encourage people to leave a comment. As it is now, many people are a bit fearful of leaving a constructive comment because they don't know how it will be taken.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!!

Has anyone in this thread heard of graffiti or petty vandalism? Does anyone here understand what's going on in the heads of these lack-wits? Well of course you do, if you think about it...

They do it a: because they can and b: because they can invite their mates and show them what they've done and have a "good laugh" over it, pointing out how "clever" or "shocking" they've been...the "big fish" in a very small pond, taking on the dolphins...(the dolphins, as usual, grin and swim away). Or even secretly, not even bringing in the mates, a grubby little oik who doesn't even have an excuse - a form of "ego-masterbation" (if you'll forgive the phrase).

And that's all there really is to it... the "socially challenged" (and often "intellectually challenged") thinking that they can "show the world how clever they are". Whereas what they're actually doing is showing how pitiful they really are..

Cheers,
Diolma

Ok ok. STFU was a harsh way of putting it I guess. But then it was never meant to be nice and constructive. It was aimed at the jerks/trolls who has nothing better to do than to diss other prople's work. And the best advise I can give them IS STFU ;o)

I like what karen1573 and tainted_heart said in their posts. A few years ago, people weren't scared of offering constructive criticism. But after all the scars many of them have amassed, who can blame them for no longer offering advice?

Anyone who has had formal art training understands and usually appreciates critiques. I wish we had a forum specifically for artists who are looking for critiques. I would skip the gallery entirely if we had something like that, and just post my stuff where I can get tips. I'm interested in learning and improving more than anything else.

Other than that, I usually post a message with my pics that says "Critiques welcome" or something to that effect. I also decided to disable the ratings option for my images. I think this has improved my ability to get good useful help. Plus, it seems that almost everyone gets their images rated "excellent" anyway, whether its good or bad. It's like when my teacher decided to give everyone in the class an "A", even though some of us had spent hours on our projects and some of us had done almost no work the entire quarter. Its not really helpful or motivating to give people the answers they want. As artists, if we can, we should try to motivate people to do their best work.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

**(swooon) ALAN RICKMAN!!!!!!! - Ernyoka1 alert! **

Sheila (who can't forget seeing AR in tights in a performance of Hamlet)

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I vote for the FLUFFY BUNNIES , yeah !

More BUNNIES , more more more , go bunnies.

How about some chocolate bunnies instead?

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Saro wrote:
Its not really helpful or motivating to give people the answers they want.

I agree with that, most of the images I've posted got flattering comments, which is very nice considering the ammount of work I've put in them. But if you see on the other hand that other images get the same comments while in my opinion they suck, then you don't consider those comments very valuable. (no bad feelings to my critics, I like being pleased)
What worries me more, it seems that people don't want to post bad critics because of the overload of the images that are posted everyday And why should they? What is the use to give a comment to an image that in you opinion is a five minute work and gets comments like: wow dude, great work, I like the chick, nice work on the boobies. while the lighting sucks, the pose sucks, there are no decent shadows or no shadows at all. and there are hundreds, perhaps thousands images like these. It ain't no use to give another comment than to say that it looks like s**t because the author of this most appreciated work won't understand what you mean cause the only dial he can find is the breastmorph. But even that has no use because it won't stop him from posting another serie of priceless pinups in the morning encouraged as he is by his big fanclub.
Okay, that's for the bad guys and girls.
For the good ones: It's very rare that I give a comment to someone's work, because I'm far away from being an profesional artist. The only time I give comment is when notice something wrong on a rendering, that I know how to solve. But I consider that more a technical issue than a esthetic one, and I think it will be usefull for the poster. Of course there are more people that are more experienced than I am, but considering the huge amount of images posted everyday, every helpful critique will be welcome.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

I suppose (trolling aside) that it all comes down to the subjectivity of the observer. Some people like my renders - others may think they're rubbish. That's their prerogative. I have a background in art (haven't don't any "real" painting/drawing for years though because my arms and hands are mobility affected. I'm not going for the sympathy vote here - just stating a fact. Poser is the next best thing. I can make figures, pose them in/against backgrounds, and, hopefully create a pleasing picture. All in all, I get pleasure out of the process. I think that's what most Poser-ites would say in regard to their own work, whether it's a few minutes work or the result of many days.

Sheila

My aspiration: to make a decent Poser Render I'm an Oldie, a goldie, but not a miracle worker :-)

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I agree to sheila that she has a point: It's the pleasure out of the process. But why do we bother posting our pictures? Is it to share our fun of making these pictures or to get some cheap results and comments. I think this an difficult issue. Nowadays it is possible to create an outstanding picture with the avaibility of great poses, skins, lightings, rendersettings, clothings, charactermorphs, breastmorphs(!) etc,etc. within five minutes (not considering the rendertime)
So it isn't difficult to get a good picture with good comments. Even the experts won't see the difference. It's all a matter of money and time, isn't it?
No, it isn't. I've read some remarks, that Poser isn't art because it is Poser. That's the same nonsense as to declare that photography isn't art. And Poser goes further than that. You've got to be the photographer, the model, the stylist, the clother, the decorator in one. And more....Poserists make their own characters, their own textures, their own hair, their own props and what's more.
What I mean, that's what Poser meant for. To stimulate your own creativity to make your scenes and your moods. And give the damn about some wisecrack ******* who think your work looks like s**t, because it hasn't a nudity warning on it.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Hmm.

I'm twixt between here.

But this thread shows the progression of the "community" here. I am reminded of the early days of computing when code was shared and there was this sense of comraderie and the wonder of exploration. Code was written and thrown into a drawer for all to play with. But when that community "matured", settled down and $$$$$ entered the scene, very few pieces of code were left in the drawn (potential intellectual property dontcha know!) and the comraderie cooled down into pockets of fiefdoms (might let something slip to a potential rival).

It's the same here. Think about your early days with Poser and the community atmosphere then as opposed to now. Think about who you communicated with and the FUN you actually had. (Not that we arent having fun now ;) ) But we as Poser users have "matured" (please note the use of quotes throughout) the age of wonder has passed into the age of.....

There were some who lamented that allowing a commercial aspect to enter the Poser realms would change things and not for the good. The only constant is change and with change there are those who seek the comfortable. Other have felt the need to band together and support each other (via the galleries and other collaborative works).

Think about who USED to be here and why they aren't now.

I allow comments because I can answer a question if one has one, get constructive suggestions (I'll try a render with your suggestion [If you make one]. I've probably done dozens before I posted, unless I specifically say its a Work-In-Progess (WIP). But dont think that I HAVE TO do it your way. It is MY artistic effort after all. But I'll try it. If I learn something new I'll be sure to thank you!)

I miss the sharing of techniques, tips, hints.Whatever happened to actually putting formulas and dial settings in the Character Formulas area anyway??? Yet I understand that the Poser arena is a different place now.

Perhaps as has been said we have a different type of user here now. But its also a different community now as well. The wild Frontier Days are gone, we live in the Big City now folks!

BTW, If I just say "Wonderful Image, Good Job ., et al" with nothing else behind it, then 'Nuff Said!', but I will from now on try to be mindful if YOU as the artist ask for why I say so.

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

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Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Shucks. :)

I'd like to thank the Academy...:

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Attached Link: Poser Critic

We kind of had a thread about that before, and at the time I thought I'll see if anyone is interested in a critique gallery. So I made http://posercritic.digitalmagic.tv/ It's still there and if this is something people who want critiques and feedback want to use, just post a request for a gallery on the board and / or PM me to set it up. You have to have an account on the gallery AND on the board (They aren't linked) Not sure if it's something that actually interests people, since there wasn't much feedback last time, but hey... it's there, I'm not taking it down and it could be useful for people. :) If it suddenly gets mega busy, I might need some help but atm it's uhm... not busy lol.

Silke

Would there be interest in a tutorial/article/opinion piece on how to give (and receive!) constructive critique?

If people think it would be of use, I'm sure I can put something together...

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Karen, I don't think giving/receiving is a problem. The problem is that the best you get in the gallery here is a "Ohh nice I like this" usually. People don't take the time to give feedback in general, and no one can force them. It has nothing to do with being unable to give feedback, it has everything to do with wanting to take the time to give (constructive) feedback. However, I agree that giving, as well as taking, critiques is a skill some people just don't have. :) Pointers would probably be useful, I just have a feeling that most will not even look at such pointers.

Silke

I think no one wants to give constructive crits because no one wants to take them. I have given very polite crits in the past only to be PMed and told, basically, to STFU. A vast majority of the posters want nothing but the praise. I barely go to the galleries anymore, partly because of that.

In my view a lot of this comes down to the question of why do people post pictures in the first place. Is it a form of hedonistic pleasure whereby they put their pictures up and sit back waiting to be praised, is it so that they can show what they have learnt and hope that others can give them pointers to how they can better themselves and make even better pictures?

Personally I post pictures in the hope that people will make comments about them that i can then use to further my knowledge, or to fire my imagination in other ways. Some people don't like what I do and in other forums I have been slated for even thinking of using Poser as 'it isn't a professional artists tool.' In that particular forum, unless you have created the model from scratch, then you aren't even worth talking about. That in itself is a fair point if all of the galleries a particular forum are like that. I find that there are two very different types of artist, those who are highly technical and often produce breathtaking models, and those who then take those models and use them to create breathtaking imagery. Each are gifted in their own right, but sometimes there is almost a form of snobbery between them both.

It is dissapointing when you get someone who slags off your work without giving you any sort of reason or criticism, but I find that that is more than made up for by the people who give you real thoughts and comments that help you grow and get stronger. The better your pictures become, the less likely you are to even get any trolling type comments.

Azhrei

When you have an exhibition in a real world gallery and one of your works happens to be vandalised, it's presumably the best thing that could happen to you, ever. The damaged work is covered by the insurance for far more than it's actually worth, the others will sell like cold beer in August. And imagine the press reviews you'll get; from one day to another your work is controversial, and all over sudden you are a visionary. Same is true after an inflammatory comment at Renderosity. Start a thread with a link to your gallery and you will get more hits, comments and pads on you shoulder than you can shake a stick at. Cherish your trolls and feed them well, but make sure never, ever, to admit this in public ;-)

http://www.roobol.be

Quote - Cherish your trolls and feed them well, but make sure never, ever, to admit this in public ;-)

LOL, that's one way of thinking about things.

On a serious note I wonder how many people would feel satisfied with an insurance payout for their art? Personally I think I'd be devastated if anything like that happened to my work, cash payout or not. Money can't replace the time, emotion and work that goes into art.

On the digital front I guess it's a bit different, but then again you just need to read some of the horror stories linked to copyright theft to understand that everything around a personal creation is a very emotive subject.

Azhrei

Quote - I think no one wants to give constructive crits because no one wants to take them. I have given very polite crits in the past only to be PMed and told, basically, to STFU. A vast majority of the posters want nothing but the praise. I barely go to the galleries anymore, partly because of that.

You're very welcome to say anything you like about my pics. Even to point and laugh if that floats your boat. I strongly believe that a public gallery should be open to all comments, crits, praise, ridicule or whatever occurs.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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The problem is that it is hard to keep track of. 1,500 members with a a pile of images going through every day. It is just easier to not say anything :)

Maybe it is easier if people say something like "contrcutive crits welcome" but that is hard to weed out. There used to be a WIP area int eh forums but it died a lonely death (I think).

on another post this was someones reply about filters.

"Will it be possible to have an option to see ONLY the nudes, so I don't have to waste my time wading through all the other crap? "

the part that got me was the "crap" remark. its just so sweeping and dismissive,

Context soutaker, context.

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

perhaps, when the new galleries are unveiled later this week, we'll find that nic has come up with new prefs to allow nudes only :lol: p.s. I know it's just a joke :lol: but I understand they were having a problem with folks posting nudes without using the nudity tag or checkbox, hence it might be an interesting challenge.

Ask and ye shall receive... :biggrin: :thumbupboth:

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

What's the noun from "perferred" : a "perference", or a "perfersion" ?

Very nice Karen.

I think it's easy to forget that when you're a newbie, comments and critiques are especially important. I think the problem is that some of the newer artists are expecting feedback from the galleries rather than using the forums to their advantage. Also, it's important to not keep every image you've ever posted in your gallery. Treat it as a porfolio and weed out some of the areas where the learning curve was a bit rougher. Depending upon the time of day, your location, and what other artists are posting, you must accept that its a crap shoot as far as getting your image viewed or commented on.

As far as content and the nudity discussion goes, I''ll admit that I've been a little frustrated. There's nothing wrong with doing a nudie pin-up or even having a large portion of nudie pin-ups in your gallery. The problem is that the way to grow as an artist is to really try new subject matter and use the techniques presented in the forums. And my frustration is that we've reached a saturation point where the nudity removes attention from the works that might be truly original. I've noticed that a lot more of the pin-ups are not getting as many views as in the past. Perhaps this should serve as a clue to move on to another genre.

Quote - Ask and ye shall receive...

Sweet! Thanks Karen...you da bomb!! :thumbupboth:

Quote - There's nothing wrong with doing a nudie pin-up or even having a large portion of nudie pin-ups in your gallery. The problem is that the way to grow as an artist is to really try new subject matter and use the techniques presented in the forums.

That's not necessarily true and it sounds more like another rant against the prevalence of nudes in the galleries. Subject matter has little to do with growth as an artist. Many well known artists specialize in landscape, or still life, or figure and that's all they do. While the forums do present valuable techniques, their use may have only a partial impact on a persons growth as an artist. And one can't limit themselves to what they can learn form a forum. Experimentation is important. The study of light, shape, form, composition, color, style are also important factors; as is the study of traditonal mediums and art history. It is a combination of many things, including being in touch with your own psyche that makes one grow as an artist.

Quote - And my frustration is that we've reached a saturation point where the nudity removes attention from the works that might be truly original.

There is very little in the Poser gallery that is original. It's difficult to find originality when everyone is using the same figures, the same props, the same "canned" poses, the same rendering engine, and the same Photoshop Actions to postwork their images. Much of the gallery is composed of images showing off the latest figures, outfits, scense, and poses purchased from the Platinum Club or the What's Hot section of the Markeplace. The prevalence of nudity, while annoying to some, is only a part of the "white noise" of "look at what I bought this week" images that populate the galleries. Not meaning to offend anyone, but you have to look at the Poser Gallery as a virtual refrigerator door and it's not really fair to complain about what gets "taped" up on it.

Rather than be frustrated, use constructive comments to encourage people to improve their work and grow as artists.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!!

Quote - Subject matter has little to do with growth as an artist. Many well known artists specialize in landscape, or still life, or figure and that's all they do.

Subject matter is a valuable indicator of growth as an artist. While being stuck in any genre is unfortunate, there is a prevalence of gratuitous nudity for the sake of gratuitous nudity.

Quote - And one can't limit themselves to what they can learn form a forum. Experimentation is important. The study of light, shape, form, composition, color, style are also important factors; as is the study of traditonal mediums and art history. It is a combination of many things, including being in touch with your own psyche that makes one grow as an artist.

I agree, but I think you missed my point in that by asking for assistance in the forums in combination with experimentation can provide assistance for not only that artist but for everyone else who's looking for inspiration.

Quote - Rather than be frustrated, use constructive comments to encourage people to improve their work and grow as artists.

This is another of my issues and why I no longer post critiques of individual artists. Any time it's suggested that there is too much nudity in the gallery, the discussion is dismissed.

Quote - You're talking about fairness. There is no such animal. Stick your pics out there and take a risk. Some people will love your work, others will hate it. The majority will be indifferent. That's the way it is. Nothing fair, honest or nice about any of it. Shit happens, as they say.

Isn't that the reason why the people with no galleries get that comment? If they haven't taken the risk of putting their images out there, why do they have the right make rude comments on others? They might be no better or worse than what they comment on but they haven't had the courage to put theirs up for public scrutiny unlike the images they are deriding.

The galleries here have nothing to do with fairness that's clear but that doesn't mean that it's acceptable behavior and shouldn't be pointed out when trolls and others comment on the images with agenda's that have nothing to do with the pictures presented.

OTOH sometimes it also can be a misunderstanding. I made a comment that the images in a comic didn't have much to do with the joke that was told in it. I only meant that comics before it and after it had some elements in the images that had to do with the jokes being told but that particular comic didn't and the text of the joke would've been the same without any images because it had no elements that related to the joke.

Apparently that comment wasn't recieved in the manner I intended it to be since I got an IM saying "I am not interested in reading your comments in my posts.
Please stay out of my future posts and do not post further comments. ...but I will not tolerate condescending comments in posts that I submit to the galleries as you have done with your last comment."

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it's a sad commentary when posting images in the gallery is perceived a matter of courage. whatever happened to the idea of sharing one's images with others, just for the joy of it? I've posted many toons (almost all at other sites,e-groups or newsgroups) and if somebody enjoyed them or got a laff outta them, that's enuff for me. whether they comment or not is secondary to that. p.s. karen, thanks for those great new options, but believe me, after 10 years of doing this, I know that they almost never want serious critical comments, even in cases where they appear to be asking for them. anything that can be construed as non-positive is very damaging to the psyche, for all but a very tiny minority.

For what it's worth, I only want fluffy bunnies in my comment section! :thumbupboth: I don't even allow ratings. Why? I'm not doing this to compete with anyone else. I'm doing it for fun, period. Nasty comments are not the least bit fun. If I wanted nasty comments I'd post to the chicken coop at Poser Pro's and let people blast away at me.

Quote - > Quote - Subject matter has little to do with growth as an artist. Many well known artists specialize in landscape, or still life, or figure and that's all they do.

Subject matter is a valuable indicator of growth as an artist. While being stuck in any genre is unfortunate, there is a prevalence of gratuitous nudity for the sake of gratuitous nudity.

That's balderdash, subject matter cannot be used as a guage to judge a person's growth as an artist! What a person chooses to paint, draw, or render says nothing about their ability as an artist. Choosing a particular genre in no way indicates one is "stuck" or not growing anymore than a person that chooses to produce in one medium is "stuck" or not growing.

I will not disagree that there is a prevalence of gratuitous nudity for the sake of gratuitous nudity. It may be that you are not considering that a large number of people that post images in the Poser Gallery are "hobbyists" that render to enjoy being expressive and creative and even, at times, tittilating. These people are artistic but not necessarily artists (no offense) in the truest sense of the term. In that light, perhaps you expect too much.

Quote - > Quote - And one can't limit themselves to what they can learn form a forum. Experimentation is important. The study of light, shape, form, composition, color, style are also important factors; as is the study of traditonal mediums and art history. It is a combination of many things, including being in touch with your own psyche that makes one grow as an artist.

I agree, but I think you missed my point in that by asking for assistance in the forums in combination with experimentation can provide assistance for not only that artist but for everyone else who's looking for inspiration.

You didn't make that point. Your point was: "try new subject matter and use the techniques presented in the forums." You didn't say anything about asking for assistance or experimentation.

Quote - > Quote - Rather than be frustrated, use constructive comments to encourage people to improve their work and grow as artists.

This is another of my issues and why I no longer post critiques of individual artists. Any time it's suggested that there is too much nudity in the gallery, the discussion is dismissed.

Nobody dismissed your suggestion that there is too much nudity in the gallery. You said you were frustrated by the "saturation" of nude images in the galleries and it was suggested that rather than be frustrated, you do something constructive to encourage "originality" and growth. Why that would cause you to cease posting individual critiques is puzzling.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!!

** 4 what it's worth ............. I've almost exclusively gone for human (well as far as a pixellated figure can be) figures. That, at the moment, is my choice. I did life drawing for my exams etc, and, as I also was studying anatomy at college level, it dovetailed with my artistic interests. I suppose I should maybe diversify into urban/rural scapes - some in the gallery are awesome, but at the moment, I'm happy to carry on as is. To paraphrase the main character from a 60s TV series in the UK "The Prisoner" - "I am not an artist, I'm a free man/woman"**

Sheila

My aspiration: to make a decent Poser Render I'm an Oldie, a goldie, but not a miracle worker :-)

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Part of the issue I find here is that many artists really don't WANT to have their work judged. This stands for many other communities as well. For the most part artists seem to want the "great job!" high fives. If you point out technical flaws or are less than totally "supportive" many don't really take the criticism... they get hurt. Who needs the drama just to do someone a favor?

The only real exception seems to be CGTalk. For whatever reason, those folks are amazing in both the level and usefulness of their critique and their ability to actually handle criticism. It may be that the level of professionalism is high. It may be that being a prick or a drama queen on that board can literally prevent you from getting a CG job with any of the bigger studios. That tends to keep people polite and mature :)

Quote - it's a sad commentary when posting images in the gallery is perceived a matter of courage.

We live in a society of human emotional veal. The sheer number of people who consider any level of interaction with the universe that isn't covered in hearts and flowers to be "traumatic" is simply horrifying to me. Personally I blame the prevailence of the therapy culture, but what do I know? :)

Given that level of protection so many seam to demand from common life problems why would it shock you that people will use a word like "courage" for braving the hideous danger of a negative comment from a total stranger? My god man, don't you know how much those can ... umm.... oh wait, I can't manage to care at all mostly. But other people seem to be scarred for life by them.

What do I know, I live in a world where many people whose blogs I read use the word "triggered" (as in trauma flash back) to describe the cover of the Sports Illustrated swimsuit issue. Whats more, the honestly expect the entire rest of the world to be responsible for making sure they never see an image that bothers them.

It's amazing.

We live in a society of human emotional veal.

We do? :¬)

This discussion has mutated from it's original content to a discussion about being able to accept criticizm or handling a critique. The original poster didn't say they didn't want constructive criticizm they said they didn't want drive-by, one-line slaps that contain absolutely no content. And "this sucks" is exactly that, not criticizm.

Should anyone have to put up with that simply because they posted in a public forum/gallery? No. With the ability to use freedom of speech comes responsibility and anyone who can't back up their written comment with actual, and more importantly mature, reasons isn't worth being allowed to comment. Tell me something sucks, although I'd prefer a more mature approach, but tell me why.

...... Kendra

I leave the comments on because I am a newbie and I like to hear people's comments because it helps to me learn and improve, luckily so far I have not received any bad comments, but what I think is, whoever is being an a**le - it is there problem not yours. Take it with a grain of salt and use it as motivation to improve. I mean of course if someone is simply saying "this is st there is not a lot you can do with that, and it just means that person is too imature to actually provide you with constructive criticism. I am not afraid of bad comments, but I think that people should stop and think about the comments they make. I mean the person who posts a picture for comment - well speaking for myself, quite emotionally attatched to the picture and I think it takes guts to put your work out there for others to critique. There is a person attatched to that picture so to speak and I think those making comments should remember that some people are hurt by nasty comments. Anyway I am rabbling now so.. that's my two cents

Isn't that the reason why the people with no galleries get that comment? If they haven't taken the risk of putting their images out there, why do they have the right make rude comments on others?

they have the right to comment but not to be rude. however, if you think someone saying they're not keen on a piece is rude then you shouldn't put stuff up for comment. and it shouldn't be about courage. we do a piece we show it, people may or may not comment...why is courage needed.

you can read a book and comment on it but does that mean you have to be a published author before you do so. no it doesn't. and anyone who places a pic in a gallery has to accept any and all comments as long as they stay within the bounds of respect.

i'm with you about people not being able in the main to take real crit about their work. i write poetry and saw so much back slapping and fawning over work that was utter shite i withdrew from them. if they got fair critique they would go into tizzyfits and say you were trolling. lol. every other critique was...what a lovely poem...i wanted to vomit at some of them. i never said i disliked a piece without giving a reason why though. something along the lines of..the piece didn't work for me because blah blah.......sad thing about art in all it's forms is the creator of a piece always takes commetnts as a personal attack on themselves and not the piece.

billy

I guess I've been pretty lucky. Over the last few years I've been posting on Rosity I've had :

a) a staggeringly low nipple and butt-cheek count , and

b) no clique membership priviledges

And yet I've yet to have a single image that was trolled in any way. In fact, the only slightly negative comment I've ever received was from a freebie maker who's model of a castle I used in a distant background and forgot to thank him in the credits lol

I think the new commenting options in the galleries are superb. They give the option of disabling potentially hurtful comments ( and I guess certain types of image attract more trolling than others ), but the sad fact of life is some people are just arseholes. They'll crap on you and run for no other reason than because they can. People can really suck sometimes, eh? :unsure:

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Is It Getting Nasty Out There?