I have been looking for velvet and satin shaders to use with my dynamic dresses. I found some shader settings at RDNA freebies. In the readme, these settings cannot be used to create commercial or free products. So, with that in mind, can I create shaders with slightly different settings, in order to avoid a big stink? I'm starting to think that some people in this community are way too selfish. I do realize that it takes work to develop such things, but why try to lay claim and horde what Poser does internally? Thanks, -Starkdog

if you wanna distribute a product that uses those shaders, just ask 'em for permission. it'll save you work, and give them credit.

What he's saying is they have no right to put limitations on dial settings that anyone can achieve using Poser's built in Material room settings. If they had included actual hand made textures, that would be one thing, but you can't lay claim to material room dial settings that anyone can recreate with a spin or two fo the dials and then make limitations on how they can be used.

Im afraid I have to agree with both Starkdog, and Mizrael.... its a ridulous concept to try copyright something so arbitary. Kinda like trying to copyright the word hair or teeth. Completely stupid.

I too find a lot of selfishness doing its rounds in the community like a bad smell as of late.... which at the end of the day is very very sad....

"If toast
always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what
happens if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it?"

Steven Wright

Everything for nothing, everything for nothing.....repeat after me...........

Ding ding ding!!! Mizreal and Gora hit the jackpot. I think that I might patent water and copyright the chemical structure of H20! Boy, aren't Dasani, Evian, Perrier, and Aquafina gonna love me??? -Starkdog

carefull there, you may be accused of cornering the market ....heh heh....

"If toast
always lands butter-side down, and cats always land on their feet, what
happens if you strap toast on the back of a cat and drop it?"

Steven Wright

I don't need everything for nothing Rubicon, but neither do I need to see greedy bastards trying to claim ownership of Material Room settings and saying those settings can't be used in commercial renders!

If I WERE a commercial artist, I'm not, and I did come up with identical materials on my own, which I haven't yet, and used them in a commercial image, which I haven't, you can be damned sure I'd raise hell if they tried to get any money from me or sue me for creating the same settings as they did and using them commercially!

Someone has gone to the trouble of working out those settings, providing them for free and then putting a restriction on them. So what? How is that greedy? I always wonder at people who complain about others who give items away. The chances of two people finding exactly the same surface settings, via dial turning or numeric input, are probably fairly slim. That person obviously doesn't want commercial derivatives of their work, that they provided for free, being sold. I don't see a problem with that.
Yes, some people in Poser land are way too greedy.

Maybe greedy is the wrong term and that's my fault, how about Selfish instead?

The thing is Rubi, If I came up with the same settings on MY OWN as I said in my hyopthetical example, what's to stop them from claiming I used their materials in my commercial render. and harrassing me? THAT is why trying to place restrictions on the usage of dial settings is overstepping the bounds of courtesy!

They are settings that can be duplicated without the originals just by spinning dials and using the color dropper tools and whatnot that's built into the material room. They didn't create anything that can't be recreated using the same dials. Placing restrictions on material room settings can't be enforced because they can't be copyrighted. Trying to do so just makes you look selfish. Not to mention stupid!

Nobody's complaining about the freebies or the quality of the freebie. Just the unfair restrictions on content that can be made within Poser itself and isn't restricted by your Poser EULA!!

I don't think you CAN copyright a material setting, as in a shader. It's the same as with lights and poses, and it HAS been ruled that you can't copyright dial settings.

That means in theory, that you can't copyright a character made with only the built-in morphs either. Anyone COULD do the same character "by mistake".

Of course, the actual possibility for it is rather slim, but not thoretically impossible.

And in the case of a shader... say it's a mirror. Well there's only so many (as in ONE, really) ways you can make a functioning mirror in Poser. So should the first one who figured it out have copyrighted it? That's insane.

I do agree that there's a lot of selfishness among Poser users. Of course, once we're talking about stuff for sale, the whole "but I need the money for my living" issue also comes into play, but to limit the use of free stuff? Personally... I think if you don't want anyone to use it commercially, then don't give it away. And if that's a problem, the solution is equally simple: Sell it instead.

The only things I've made where I've limited commercial use is the Star Trek things, and that's because oif Paramount's copyright, not mine.

I use shaders all the time. Most modified to some extent, but not all.

You know..... if anyone took the time and ASKED me instead of posting a complaint on a seperate site, I would have given you permission to use them. I have been asked a dozen times in the past and every time I have given permission.

If shaders are something that poser is simply doing internally then it shouldn't be that hard for any user to come up with the shader combinations and settings on their own instead of downloading a set and copying those settings.

Just my 2 cents

why is there a difference with someone taking the time to create a set of shaders and giving them away with a stipulation that those settings not be included in another set than one doing the same thing but selling them with the same stipulation. Either way that person took the time to create the settings. Because one is free and one isn't?

In a world filled with causes for worry and anxiety...
we need the peace of God standing guard over our hearts and minds.

Jerry McCant

"So, with that in mind, can I create shaders with slightly different settings, in order to avoid a big stink? I'm starting to think that some people in this community are way too selfish. "

Yes... how on earth DARE they go out of their way to make free stuff and then get upset if you steal it. How unreasonable can people possibly be ??

"What he's saying is they have no right to put limitations on dial settings that anyone can achieve using Poser's built in Material room settings. If they had included actual hand made textures, that would be one thing, but you can't lay claim to material room dial settings that anyone can recreate with a spin or two fo the dials and then make limitations on how they can be used."

Ok, fair enough. If it's so easy why is he stealing them to start with... And why ask for permission to 'tweak' someone else's work ... unless it's to sell on? Take a quick peak at the copyright and ethical standards forum, it's full of people who took someone else's work, sold it on, and then pleaded innocence.

Would it really have been so hard just to ask for permission? It takes just a minute to show someone the courtesy of an IM, but instead you're here, whining about injustice.

You're right, something stinks in the Poser community. Don't be so sure it's the "selfishness" of the free stuff providers.

Quote - You're right, something stinks in the Poser community. Don't be so sure it's the "selfishness" of the free stuff providers.

W3RD

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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You know Starkdog, (and I'm gonna try to hold back on my response here to be polite,) the whole deal about people putting out freestuff is to try to give back to the community with some of their work. Now, here you go and start calling them selfish. Rather ungrateful I'd say. I frankly expected more out of you and the folks who agreed with you here. But then again... this is Renderosity.
-jay

Pitchforks!
Torches!
Get 'em here while their hot..
Gallows! hang 'em high...
Equal Opertunity Merchants here.. we'll sell to both sides...
Pitchforks!
Torches!

Quote - Pitchforks!
Torches!

Got any 4 tine manure forks? preferably used.

Ive tried using nodes with mixed success. I respect the skill and knowledge that goes into making these textures. In my opinion there isnt much diffrence between making image textures and making node settings.

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

Quote - I respect the skill and knowledge that goes into making these textures. In my opinion there isnt much diffrence between making image textures and making node settings.

Don't think anyone could have said it better. If you can't make them yourself, then go buy them, or ask permission to use a free set. No harm, no foul. Not asking questions is what, usually, ends up in a mess.

~Wolfie~

Helping everyone is the most rewarding failure you'll ever experience.
- Ray Augé (~Wolfie~'s hubby)

Anything is more stable than Windows . . .
--- Even a relationship based purely on sex!
- Pam Augé (~Wolfie~)

No meat was harmed during the making of this TV dinner.
- Pam Augé (~Wolfie~)

ernyoka1 wrote:

Quote - I don't think you CAN copyright a material setting, as in a shader. It's the same as with lights and poses, and it HAS been ruled that you can't copyright dial settings.

Please site source of this information: case, country, etc. Most interested in this court decision. Thank you.

Source : Curious Labs (now EF) Owners of Poser.
they stated that as far as they were concerned Dial Settings cannot be copyrighted.
no Court case as yet due to everyone being to short of money to even look at a lawyer for this.

Pitchfork? going cheap?

I just want to add my 2 cents worth on this...if you download a freebie and it says dont use it in a certain way then that is how it is. That is how the maker wants to handle their stuff it is there privilege to do so as they created it. I have downloaded quite a few items which were freebies that I wanted to use to make something to sell, mind you they were usually textures or something but I contacted the person and in every case they were glad to give me permission to use it. As people have already said just ask and see what they say, then it there is a problem then you can bitch gripe or moan about it, but dont knock the people who give oodles of there time to make freebies so the hundreds of people out there who cant afford to buy the big name stuff from stores can still have some high quality freebies to work with....in other words stop bitching about stuff that was not even really a problem, there is enough shit in this world without making petty shit just for the hell of it....nuff said I'm outa here

I think that Traveler, messenger and DarkstarBurning pretty much covered it.

The selfishness that I see in the Poser community is not coming from those that spend their time making freebies with a small restriction on them. It's coming from those that feel that they should be given something for nothing because they don't want to take the time to learn to make something that they are going to turn around and make money off of themselves.

That's the crux of it pretty much. You should PAY for something if you are going to turn around and sell and make a profit. If you are just going to use them in your own personal textures and artwork then that's all cool, but don't climb on the back of someone else's talent to get something to the marketplace and not expect to pay something for it.

And you could always ask the creator of said free products before you come into a public forum and start whining about how unfair it is.

Boohoo.....

That's selfish.

ok question

given that information on the Material Room is rarer than rocking horse shit, are we no longer allowed to disect others work in th room because to do so is 'selfish' and 'ungrateful'?

gods sake. he asked a simple question. and you want to hang draw and quarter him for it?

who's the nasty ones here?

Quote - *"So, with that in mind, can I create shaders with slightly different settings, in order to avoid a big stink? I'm starting to think that some people in this community are way too selfish. "*Yes... how on earth DARE they go out of their way to make free stuff and then get upset if you steal it. How unreasonable can people possibly be ??

You can't steal what you've been given for free! Period!

*Quote - "What he's saying is they have no right to put limitations on dial settings that anyone can achieve using Poser's built in Material room settings. If they had included actual hand made textures, that would be one thing, but you can't lay claim to material room dial settings that anyone can recreate with a spin or two fo the dials and then make limitations on how they can be used."*Ok, fair enough. If it's so easy why is he stealing them to start with... And why ask for permission to 'tweak' someone else's work ... unless it's to sell on? Take a quick peak at the copyright and ethical standards forum, it's full of people who took someone else's work, sold it on, and then pleaded innocence.

Again, you can't call it stealing if the product was freely given. We're talking about two different things here for one thing. Copyright of intellectual property, which this isn't and ownership of Labor which this is. If you want to be reimbursed for your labor, fine, sell the damn freebies instead. You can't, ABSOULTELY CAN NOT claim ownership of dial settings. It has already been established! If there's no ownership there's no theft! Period, end of story.

So, if there's no ownership, why the hell would you need permission for cripes sake. This is all utter nonsense to me anyway. I don't buy poses or shaders or anything else that I can possibly create myself using Posers built in mechanics. Why should I when I can recreate them all with patience and effort on my own. To me, buying something I can learn to make myself is just cheating myself out of learning and improving.

Trying to compare shaders made with the mechanic's of Poser with textures made with artistic skill using an outside paint program is comparing apples and oranges! It is so far from being the same thing it's ludicrous that anyone would even compare the two processes!

Quote - The selfishness that I see in the Poser community is not coming from those that spend their time making freebies with a small restriction on them. It's coming from those that feel that they should be given something for nothing because they don't want to take the time to learn to make something that they are going to turn around and make money off of themselves.

Sorry but as someone who has made and given away my own freebies when I could afford my webhosting , as has Sturkwurk, with no restrictions. Freebies we learned to make ourselves, that's just plain BS! The whole concept of placing restrictions on something that's "Free" invalidates the word free to begin with. If there's strings attached, you haven't made a freebie, you've made something with a price. Whether it's monetary value or ego stroking by forcing people to ask your silly permission to use said item, you've been paid. It's no longer a freebie!

Quote - he asked a simple question. and you want to hang draw and quarter him for it?
who's the nasty ones here?

Had he asked a simple question, this post wouldn't be going on like it is. Go back and re read it. Sure it started out innocent enough, then there was that last little knock that turned the tables. Being rude never gets you anywhere, or any amount of respoect for that matter, which is why, I think, most of the responses turned out the way they did. Had it been handled better, this wouldn't even be an issue.

Quote - You can't steal what you've been given for free! Period!

Uhh, yeah you can. If it says "For personal use only" and someone uses it commercially, that is theft. No ifs, ands or buts about it.

Otherwise, why is redistribution not allowed? It says so in all the read me's I have ever seen.. this is no different. You can't do it, it's not allowed... neither is using personal use only items for commercial use. It's really quite simple.

Oh well.. One thing I have learned through all my time in forums is that there is no point in arguing with someone who "thinks" they are right. In the end, they will do you wrong, and drag you through the dirt no matter what.

Best thing to do is ask the author. Leave out the middle man (the forum).

~Wolfie~

Helping everyone is the most rewarding failure you'll ever experience.
- Ray Augé (~Wolfie~'s hubby)

Anything is more stable than Windows . . .
--- Even a relationship based purely on sex!
- Pam Augé (~Wolfie~)

No meat was harmed during the making of this TV dinner.
- Pam Augé (~Wolfie~)

Rosity has thousands of freestuff products and I would say a good 80% have the stipulation of no commercial use. Yet there are numerous threads there that state they, the free stuff providers, have the right to say whether or not it can be used for commercial usage. This includes textures scanned from fabrics "created" by someones else. This also includes any morphs created using DAZ dials.

Now this is different? Someone took the time to sit and create something that a lot of us DON'T know how to do and now they are selfish? This isn't a case of using it for a render. If i read the original post correctly, it was wanted to be uncluded in a pack, whether free or for sale.

I am sorry, but yes, permission should be asked. If not for the "dials" at least for the effort and time the person put into it.. Seems to me rules are made and changed on a whim. Outta here.

In a world filled with causes for worry and anxiety...
we need the peace of God standing guard over our hearts and minds.

Jerry McCant

Listen, you can't steal something that's free! If something has restrictions placed on it, it's not free, it's restricted. Calling it a freebie is a misnomer! Learn the language. Calling people selfish when they're just operating under the assumption that everyone knows what the meaning of "free" is is just plain rude!

As for what Sturkwurk meant by commercial product, he didn't say what he meant specifically. I assumed he meant he was going to create renders for commercial Posters or artwork. Why everyone else assumes he's talking about repackaging the items is another story. I don't know what his original intentions were and my assumption that he meant commercial renders is my own.

Quote - Sorry but as someone who has made and given away my own freebies when I could afford my webhosting , as has Sturkwurk, with no restrictions.

And that as the creator is your perogitive and I respect that. The point being that if he wants to use it to tear it apart and learn from it that's one thing, but if I understand the post correctly, he wants to use it so he doesn't have to learn from it, but rather so he can just use it in a commercial product. All he has to do is respect the creators request and ask permission. It would have taken him just as much energy to do that as it did for him to come over here and start this little rukus.

Consideration and respect for other's work, whether it's free or you pay for it is a good thing.

If the shaders are so simple to make then why is Starkdog trying to distribute Traveler's instead? A really good shader can be a very complicated set up in the material room and is not just "dial spinning".

So, Miz, you have no problem if I take part of your freebies and redistribute them with my own stuff? Even if it's a commercial product? So basically I can rip you off and that's okay 'cause after all it was only a freebie?! I SO disagree with your viewpoint!

Anyway, if you download a freebie and don't like the stipulations set out in the readme then delete the freebie (since it doesn't qualify as "free" in your definition.) Don't bitch and whine that the creator is being selfish because they have stipulations. That's their perogative. Just like I'm not going to go to lunch with someone I don't like just because they're paying. I'm also not going to complain when that person refuses to give me money for said "free lunch" instead.

I'd also like to beat the dead horse that says this whole stupid arguement could've been avoided if Starkdog would've initially addressed his questions directly and privately to Trav.

Quote - Consideration and respect for other's work, whether it's free or you pay for it is a good thing.

Exactly! All these comments could apply to any free item. Not just the shaders in question.

Quote - So, Miz, you have no problem if I take part of your freebies and redistribute them with my own stuff? Even if it's a commercial product? So basically I can rip you off and that's okay 'cause after all it was only a freebie?! I SO disagree with your viewpoint!

You know that is what I was thinking too.. It's really the same thing isn't it. So, what's good for the goose, is good for the gander! :-)

~Wolfie~

Helping everyone is the most rewarding failure you'll ever experience.
- Ray Augé (~Wolfie~'s hubby)

Anything is more stable than Windows . . .
--- Even a relationship based purely on sex!
- Pam Augé (~Wolfie~)

No meat was harmed during the making of this TV dinner.
- Pam Augé (~Wolfie~)

No I actually wouldn't care if someone else sold my work, if they thought it was good enough! Not everyone who uses Poser is in it for the money. I'm certainly not! I do it because I enjoy it as a hobby! If and when it becomes work, I'll find a new damn hobby thanks for playing! And Until Doug steps in and says yes, he wanted to redistribute the shaders. I'm sticking with my assumption that by commercial product, he meant a rendering.

You know, it occurs to me that it would resolve a whole slew of these types of discussions if they'd just create a new catagory for items with "Restrictions" and call it something other than "Freebies":! That way people would have a clearer picture of just what the heck it is they're downloading!

From the readme of the P5 velvet shaders:

"Thank you for downloading this RDNA Free Package!

The files enclosed in the file are free to use for all commercial and non-commercial/personal renders.

Files may not be re-distributed without our express permission, and under no circumstances are any

part or whole of these files to be used for a commercial 3D product."I

Well then I stand corrected. I don't have said shaders so Maybe Doug did want to redistribute them. His first post just said they were restricted from commercial useage. To me that included renders! He didn't quote the readme or say how he wanted to use them.

Okey doke. I see where you're coming from. I do kind of like the idea of the "freebies" that aren't allowed for commercial renders being in a seperate section and designated as such. :) It would save download time.

just to make a clear point here....when I read this post I really was not concerned about the legalities or definition of freebies in peoples personal interpretation, what I was annoyed with was the comment about the creator of the freebie set being selfish. Now you can argue all you like that if there are restrictions on something then it is not free...but everyone around the poser community knows that freebie to them means they dont have to part with their cash to get their hands on it and that is all they are interested in usually, and most poser users will honor the fact that some freebie creators dont want their stuff used in commerical renders or to make commercial items for selling. Maybe if starkdog was to explain himself what he had intended the use of the stuff for it might make things a little clearer here and avoid a lot of needless discussion. It is funny that he has not come back with any comments on this situation. But then maybe this is just another one of those lets get people bitching at each other posts just to get people annoyed. I for one dont really want to spend days discussing the in's and outs of freebie use...I know where I stand on it and that is good enough for me. I respect the freebie creators and if there are limitations on their stuff I can always choose to delete it of my computer if I dont want to abide by their rules. But I guess maybe I am just one in a million with that type of mentality..anyway my last word is dont bite the hand that gives out the gifts or eventually the gifts will stop coming ....

Mizrael you stated that your assumption was that Starkdog was NOT trying to make some sort of non-rendering product. Here are his words, and the first sentance is his admission:

"I have been looking for velvet and satin shaders to use with my dynamic dresses. I found some shader settings at RDNA freebies. In the readme, these settings cannot be used to create commercial or free products. So, with that in mind, can I create shaders with slightly different settings, in order to avoid a big stink? I'm starting to think that some people in this community are way too selfish. I do realize that it takes work to develop such things, but why try to lay claim and horde what Poser does internally? Thanks, -Starkdog"

The point is that he is admitting he is taking a shortcut and ripping off someone else's work to save himself time because he perceives that the work has no real value because its just spinning the dials so to speak. I wonder how a fine shader technician like face_off would feel about his work being considered just spinning the dials. Seems to me that dial spinning of his is sold for a fair price in this marketplace. Just trying to establish that shader work can be long and laborious and therefore worthy of just and fair compensation.

The shaders in point were offered for free by Traveler, a nice gesture of giving back to the Poser community, with the caveat that they weren't to be resold for profit. That is his right. For Starkdog to just say he doesn't like this rule and whine that its "selfish" sounds to me like the excuse of one too lazy to put in the hours to make something of quality. As a consumer, I take note of this attitude from a content provider.

As for you Mizrael, read what he said and, "learn the language!"
-jay

"It is funny that he has not come back with any comments on this situation. But then maybe this is just another one of those lets get people bitching at each other posts just to get people annoyed. "

or he could be back in Hospital with heart problems. if you read back a few threads, he's just come back from near collapse and a anigram.

so lets not accuse him of something that he's not done ok?

jeez, I hope stark hasn't had any relapse or anything. maybe he'll check in here and let us know how he's doing.

Well Gosh Jay! You discovered the evil truth about me! I'm human and my memory leaks. I read Doug's first post over 24 hours ago and in that time my memory of his exact words took on an assumptive life of their own. That's just the way these friggin' copyright/ownership threads go! It's hardly worth mentioning, but yeah I assumed he meant a render after the discussion went from dial spinning to ownership to he said she said.

I didn't go back and reread the original post before making my assumption, that's my bad. It doesn't make me out to be the evil bastard you'd like to think though. It just makes me human and fallible. I was never on a debate team in high school or collage and I don't aspire to political office so who gives a shit!

As for where he's at, See the above posts about his health and consider that fact that not everyone has the time to spend watching these discussions 24/7 to respond to every post like I do. He may just be working or sleeping.

Well, I tried to resist the urge, but maybe it's because today I'm wearing my tight shoes. . .

Nope. not possible to copyright a dial setting. That technically would require a process patent in order to actually derive some sort of government sponsored rights protection.

Meaning that copyright is not the only means of rights protection available to someone in order to derive benefit-or at least fair credit-for their work, effort, innovation, and generosity.

There are also thingies like license agreements, which say in basic terms that "I made this, and I expect you to respect my efforts in doing it. In return for said respect or other fair compensation, you may -blah blah blah -but you may not -yak yak yak-."

Perfectly legal and complete. Totally restrictive. Doesn't matter who "owns" the dials, the license agreement says "I figured this out-please use it according to the rules".

Now many of you may know that I frequently "give away" node settings and stupid shader tricks in the open forums. I also have penned a couple of tutorials on them and given those away for free. No strings. Just that kind of guy. But that in no way means that someone else can't restrict the fruits of their labors-even if they offer it for free.

Nothing keeps anyone from "tweaking" the dial settings that come as a freebie, in a merchant package, or in a tutorial, save for their own moral sense, and the respect for the work of the other artist.

You can argue the semantics until doomsday. You all know the difference between right and wrong, and you know when you are ripping someone else off.

I mean, the gentleman who started this could have just kept his mouth shut, and probably no one would have been the wiser. The fact that there was a perception that something about the idea seemed wrong should be enough to tell you it's a bad idea.

I make no judgement, and will not debate the points of "selfish" or "greedy". I will only say that all the online communities used to be flush with superb freebies of all kinds, and now it seems that much of what remains is subpar, or not of any great use. Selfishness of this sort seems to be widespread.

Let him with no pitchfork cast the first stone.

This is my personal opinion and reflects no sane thoughts known to humanity.-R

Quote - "It is funny that he has not come back with any comments on this situation. But then maybe this is just another one of those lets get people bitching at each other posts just to get people annoyed. "

or he could be back in Hospital with heart problems. if you read back a few threads, he's just come back from near collapse and a anigram.

so lets not accuse him of something that he's not done ok?

I'm sure the majority of us don't read every single thread in every poser forum. I have no problem with your pointing out that we all should be more careful about making accusations without knowing mitigating circumstances. I mean it seems like accusations are one of the things that the poser community is best at (and, yes, I'm sure I've been guilty of it myself). However, I do have a problem with the way you worded it. You could've just stated the facts and said "give the guy the benefit of the doubt" instead of couching it in such a bitchy, confrontational way.

...

if you read any bitchyness etc in my reply, you are putting it there yourself. none was intended.

but if you are seeing bitchy and confrontational sorry. you ain't getting it here.

Well Gosh Mizrael I never even thought of going out for debate, probably because I've been a creative all my life. Nice cut with the politician line, 'bout as low as calling me a lawyer. As far as you being human and having memory leaks, well, I was ready to say hey been there myself, know what you mean. I snapped at you because you were taking the tone of sarcastic rudeness.

As far as continuing this pissing match feel free to go on without me for my intent was not to personally disparage but to stick up for a principle, something that seems horribly lacking sometimes. You have yourself a good day and as far as Starkdog goes, if he truly does have the posted health issues then I wish him the best. -jay

The arguement that material room settings cannot be copyrighted sounds great doesn't it? Very convenient.

However... what about the 100's of pose packs in the marketplace? Or the lighting sets ? The background packs ? ALL of these things you can do yourself, what you're paying for is someone's time and talent. Is it ok to rip those guys off too, because by your own arguement the dials are there so it's fair game?

So.. he gave a free gift to the community and as such he should be penalised and forfeit all rights? Hmmm, not much incentive for the people who DO make the effort to continue to do so, is there ?

As has been said, taking someone's freebie to learn from it is all well and good, most people do at some stage and it's a good way to learn your way around Poser and a lot more interesting than the Poser manual itself, but deliberately taking someone else's work when you know it's possibly not legal but definately not ethical is another.

Khai...I am sorry if it seemed I was making pointing fingers and being accusing,,,I apologise and should have worded things better...sometimes my fingers type too quickly for my brain. I was simply wondering why he had not made any other comments. I did not know he had health issues and I do hope that he is ok. I dont know the guy personally but even so would not wish harm to anyone regardless. Like you though I am human and fallible..and make mistakes.

Oh and back to Sturk's original post now that it's been quoted back at me, just what is the problem with adjusting the dials and changing the colors and making them your own? You're not redsitributing the originals at that point. If what you're redistributing isn't the original setting, then what's the problem here? The restrictions are on the original shaders. Are you gonna tell me now that that restriction applies to any derivative shader close to or similar to the originals is forbidden? Do you reall want to end all creativity in this hobby with this legalistic attitide of ownership?

How about this "Hypothetical" situation? I create a python script that automatically creates in a batch process, every possible shader there will ever be from Poser 6's material room. I run said python script then turn around and sell a package with all these shaders and claim it's my own work. Do I have the right to restrict every possible shader you can makein Poser? NO! Did I create them with my script? Sure! This Hypothetical situation could also be used with Poses and light sets if they're just dial settings.

This begs the assumption that I know diddly about Python, which I don't so it's definately a purely hypothetical situation! But I'm guessing it is possible to write such a script and do just what I've proposed if you know enough python language.

"As has been said, taking someone's freebie to learn from it is all well and good, most people do at some stage and it's a good way to learn your way around Poser and a lot more interesting than the Poser manual itself, but deliberately taking someone else's work when you know it's possibly not legal but definately not ethical is another."

just to note -
there is a lot we do in poser now that is Not in the manual, and the only way to learn is to dissect another file such as a CR2 or a Shader. infact many of the things we take for granted in a commerical product infact were learned originally from a Freebie. such as Matpose files...

Messenger, don't worry mate.. I just wanted to head off any ideas that Starkdog is just trolling.

Khai, erm... that was sort of my point, just better technically worded lol

Personally, I find the Poser manual invaluable. It keeps my living room door from slamming shut when I have the windows open :biggrin:

Khai, I could be putting the "tone of voice" of someone else I know into your words. That was assumptive of me. I apologize.

Oh and here's another brilliant idea for "Restricted Use" item creators. How about putting the words "Restricted Usage See Readme" in every thumbnail for said items.

I'm not the only one who's been collecting freebies for nearly 10 years now. Do you think I keep all the original zips and read me's handy on my hard drive instead of backed up on CD somewhere? Even if they were handy on teh hard drive, would I know it was a restricted item without some kind of notice in the thumbnail without searching my hard drive for the correct readme for every freebie I used/ Oh hell no! When i create a render, I just start using whatever strikes my fancy from within my runtimes. I don't stop to think, Oh, I can't use this or I might infringe on someone else's intellectual property! Who does?

For what it's worth, as I've already stated. This is just a hobby for me. A creative outlet. I don't do commercial renders or content. I will say that all the money grubbing and merchandising of this hobby has tarnished it a bit for me. Merchants need to take that into account before the customer base just up and quits out of frustration.

Quote - Oh and here's another brilliant idea for "Restricted Use" item creators. How about putting the words "Restricted Usage See Readme" in every thumbnail for said items.

That's actually not a bad idea :)
Oh, I can't use this or I might infringe on someone else's intellectual property! Who does?

Actually, I do. I keep all of my freebies in a separate area from purchases, as I do Merchant resources etc....I'm just that way. As an artist and a merchant, it is very important for me to respect the rights of intellectual property...the old "do unto others" rule comes to mind. Just because very few of us do it, doesn't mean it's not what should be done, it just means people don't want to take the time to do it, some figure "oh they'll never catch me, no big deal" but for some it is a big deal. I've pretty much stopped downloading any freebies, simply because almost all of the work I do in Poser is commercial work, whether it be limited edition prints or texture work for a product. I just don't want to take the chance of it getting "mixed up" with things that are commercially viable, lest I end up on the receiving end of a witch hunt.

It all goes back to the beginning of the thread. The point is, instead of bitching and moaning about it, (and bitching and moaning about a freebie that isn't even at this site) he could have simply channeled that energy into asking Traveler for permission.

I mean, that's the whole point of this thread right?

at Runtime DNA too! We have forums, site and store contact, and product support.

Quote - Oh and here's another brilliant idea for "Restricted Use" item creators. How about putting the words "Restricted Usage See Readme" in every thumbnail for said items.

That's actually not a bad idea :)
Oh, I can't use this or I might infringe on someone else's intellectual property! Who does?

Actually, I do. I keep all of my freebies in a separate area from purchases, as I do Merchant resources etc....I'm just that way. As an artist and a merchant, it is very important for me to respect the rights of intellectual property...the old "do unto others" rule comes to mind.

Well that's different. You are a merchant. How many hobbiests, which face it, most of us still are, spend THAT much thought and time an energy in differentiating our runtimes? I have over 10 various runtimes separated by theme's such as Poser 4 content, Poser 5 content, Poser 6 content, Sci-Fi content, Fantasy Content, COmicbook Content, 3rd Part Figures Content, DAZ content etcetera! That alone takes me constant maintenance to keep up with!!

I'm not a merchant, and don't strive to be, I doubt most of us do. If I even come close to striving to do anything here it's possibly to create a render that's worthy of commercialism. That's a high enough goal for me personally. LOL! Anyone who's looked at my gallery knows how far I have to go for that to happen!

Quote - the old "do unto others" rule comes to mind.

Well that's different. You are a merchant.

No, it's not different, I wasn't always a merchant, haven't really been a merchant for that long.... and I've always done this. It's called respecting other's rights for their creation. It effects me more as an artist and less as a merchant. Hobbyist or not, you should still respect other people's creations, no matter what your view point is of your own.

And if you have over 10 various runtimes, separated by the list you gave, you have given way more thought to your runtimes, then I give to mine :) So you are essentially already spending a lot of time and effort separating them....what is one more runtime for the freebie content?

Looks around confused I don't see Sturkwurk posting here ...

Miz:

With regard to "commerical use", I've stopped downloading any freebies that are restricted to non-commercial, specifically because I might misplace or loose the documentation. Some of my work is "personal" but some of it is commercial, and I agree that segregating the runtimes is a big PITA.

So I just don't use ANYTHING that's restricted to non-commercial use.

If one is an actual hobbyist, then everything they do is "personal/private" and there's no concern.

And if someone says, "Hey, I'd like to buy a poster of that!" and it does contain "restricted" material, you have to tell them no. I have. And yes I had to explain why. But I didn't sell it.

Now, may just be me, but I never ever under any stretch of the imagination considered the term "Commerical use" to mean I could sell the thing (shader, model, whatever)-and certainly not with my label on it to claim it was mine. I don't know where that idea keeps coming from, but it isn't correct. -R

Yeah, what's one more hoop to jump through that sucks the joy out of my hobby for something that's not just a hobby but growing into a major waste of my time and resources? I don't particularly think I should have to jump through a billion freebie restrictive hoops just to enjoy what's a hobby and I find it pretty offensive that anyone should think that I should!

Regardless of what you think, It is different for merchants who will be profiting from what they do with Poser Content. They SHOULD be mindful of all the distribution restrictions. Me, I just want to make better pictures.

It took me over a year and a half to separate my content into the (I didn't list all of them) 26 (I just counted) runtimes that I have when I came back to this hobby. Now if every download page had a disclaimer on the restrictions of content that I was aware of before downloading them, I might consider starting a new "Restricted Content" runtime. As it is now, I download freebies to the current runtimes I have setup and unzip and install them there. If I haven't seen the readme with restrictions before that point, I'm not gonna go back now and resort the 30+ gigs worth of runtimes for restricted content

As for the Sturkwurk VS Starkdog confusion thing, all I can say is I had just woken up from 4 hours of sleep, my mind was a bit fuzzy most likely. Not that it isn't fuzzy when I've had 8 hours and been awake most of the day, but there you have it!

Relik, if a friend of mine wanted a Poster of one of my renders I'd be too damned happy that they liked it to even consider charging them for it! Hell! I'd still give them one! If that's an unethical form of redistribution then the hell with it!

I don't think anyone is suggesting you have to keep track of it, particularly if you don't intend on selling your work. It's a moot point.

I'm not a Poser merchant but I have to keep track of what I can use or not use because I sell the resulting animations and illustrations. And I don't have time to keep track of it, so I just don't get anything that is restricted.

I grant that I still run some risk for all the stuff from the "olden days", but frankly, I can't think of a lot of it that I use now anyway, because the program has moved on, and either the stuff is outdated, or there is a better replacement.

But it's not accurate or fair to presume that only merchants really need to be concerned. Anyone who wants to be able to sell their work needs to know what rules apply to using someone else's content.-R

Quote - Regardless of what you think, It is different for merchants who will be profiting from what they do with Poser Content. They SHOULD be mindful of all the distribution restrictions. Me, I just want to make better pictures.

I

Never said that it wasn't different for merchants, I said it was from the very beginning...which is what all the hoopla was about Starkdog's statements :) Actually, the hoopla was because he happened to infer that Traveler, probably one of Poser's most prolific freebie creators and who has done so much for the Poser community, given more then enough of his free time in helping people learn the ropes and providing content free and otherwise......selfish.

Heh! Lady, you said a mouthful! In the end, 99.99999999% of these discussions would never occur if people were just more mindful of the inflamatory words they use, myself included!

That, my brother is the full truth :)

Indeed.

Quote - Looks around confused I don't see Sturkwurk posting here ...

Me either. Did something get deleted? ::joins ghost in his confusion::

The confusion was mine folks, I started this morning with only 4 hours sleep posting to a thread while watching the paint drying slowness of a dynamic hair render for a new curly hair for Dork freebie that I hope to release and bewteen lack of sleep and render speed frustration, my mind's been a bit on the muddled side of reality. I confused Sturkwurk with Starkdog in my addled head.. Do me a favor and pretend you didn't see that ok? It's easy enough to do when I'm constantly having to error check my own arthriticly typo'd posts for errors with sleep deprivation while waiting for a dynamic render to finish!

Thank you for clearing that up >^_^<

funny how no one actually asks me.

Now for my merchant stuff, use it any way you want, just don't break the store liscense agreement.

For my old freebies, I've always asked that they not be used in commercial work. In other words, I don't want you using my hero file to make money. I have been asked in the past, and I have allowed it. Can I actually enforce anything, probably not.

Doug

I came, I rendered, I'm still broke.

To the Real SlimSturkWurk, I wouldn't use your older stuff in a commercial work simply because it's mostly Superhero stuff that's already copyrighted! Not that I do commecial stuff anyway and again, can we pretend I didn't have that brain fart. Getting old is embarassing enough as it is! Sheesh!

I am lost here.... what was created?
The dials are built into the program.... If I photoshop an image, can I claim ownership of the image? I thought if you reword text from an author it was still considered plagiarism.

The subject in question is not a product.... For it to be a product, something must be produced..

If this were about a tutorial on how to use the shader room, that would count as a product.

Get a grip on yourselves.....

Quote - I am lost here.... what was created?
The dials are built into the program.... If I photoshop an image, can I claim ownership of the image? I thought if you reword text from an author it was still considered plagiarism.

The subject in question is not a product.... For it to be a product, something must be produced..

If this were about a tutorial on how to use the shader room, that would count as a product.

Get a grip on yourselves.....

I create images in Photoshop every day. The brushes, patterns, styles, filters, pen tools, etc, are all parts of the Photoshop software, just as the nodes and parameter dials in Poser are part of that software. Photoshop does not create those images; I do.
Poser does not combine those nodes, or pose that figure, or spin those dials to create that character.
These programs do not create these files, they provide us with the tools to create these files.

The answer to your question is yes. If you create an image in Photoshop, you do indeed own the copyright to that image. However, if you were to use Photoshop to change an image that was created by someone else, and then give it away or sell it without permission from the original artist, that would be a violation of copyright.
As for whether or not material and pose settings created in Poser are actually copyright of the author of the file, or if the file format itself negates that, is something best answered by actual copyright attorneys, and not laymen such as ourselves.
However; the original question had more to do with social repercussions of violating the terms of use of the item.

This brings us to the real issue here:

Even if it is legal to do something; does that mean it's also ethical?

When people create files to share with the Poser community, they have every right to ask that those who download the file show them the respect of adhering to the terms of use of that item.
If there are restrictions on the use of that item for non commercial purposes, then those restrictions should be respected. If there are distribution restrictions, then those restrictions should be respected.

When someone unjustly criticizes a well respected member of this community, someone who has earned this respect, through years of sharing his wealth of knowledge about this program, and provided so much to this community, as SELFISH, or GREEDY; DAMN SKIPPY it's gonna cause a "stink".

WOW!! The fucking nerve of some of you to put words into my mouth! I AM IN NO WAY TRYING TO RIP OFF TRAVELLER NOR RDNA!!! I couldn't remember who had originally made these ( I was thinking Colm or Sydd), and was posing a question as a possible scenario in which I did not want to happen.

In order to get a satin shader, you plug the clay shader node into the Alt diffuse, and tweak colors and settings. Obviously, Traveller has already done this. Now, say if I was to make a satin shader using the clay node plugged into the Alt diffuse, and had used different color and dial settings from the RDNA collection. Since there would be some similarities in shaders, this brings up the issue of derivatives. I'm working on stuff that I plan to sell, and am doing so LEGALLY in order to avoid a ByteMeOk or DarkWingZero situation.

Upon re-reading the readme, I misinterpreted RDNA's statements in the readme file; and for that, I apologize to Traveller and RDNA. Yes, I should have contacted Traveller, and will do so shortly. As for the rest of you, put down the pitch-forks and torches. Mods, please lock this thread. -Starkdog

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Material settings problem