hi all,

I cant get over the fact that even if you create really decent art with poser that some people will still try to say that it is cheap and lifeless and without any artistic merit at all. I dont understand why people still are not getting that poser is a tool to help and not some push button app as some people think it is. I know that probably a lot of people here are going thru this and will always encounter a moron that will look at your art and say it`s poser so it ain`t worth crap i know i should let it slide and not make a big case of this but why do we get morons that have such point of views come in and piss on our parade and think that they can get away with it all the time.

I totally agree that you can love a type of art or hate it. I agree that you can look at a piece of art and find it good or bad according to his or her taste but why always try to find fault in the method used to bring out the final image out to the public.

Am i gonna criticize lucas and ILM for using AMD cpu chips instead or INTEL cpus that they in their pcs to render the stuff for the Star Wars movies...

Here are the coments that a moderator did after i posted some art on some website.

Quote from the moderator below:

It's a Poser model, and as such I don't really know how to critique it.

You see, some of the things I respond to in a work of art are personality, style, and technique. This just seems to be a standard 3D model with the breasts enlarged to extreme proportions (and not in a realistic manner either).

Are you someone with a genuine love and appreciation for the larger lady, or just someone with a juvenile breast fixation, who only sees women as sexual objects? It's so artificial, emotionally uninvolving and lacking in personality (of the model or the artist), that I can't tell one way or the other - and I don't much care either.

Now, maybe I'm way off the mark, and you do in fact possess amazing 3D skills - but this doesn't show much evidence of that. There's nothing on show here that anyone with a copy of the program and a vague degree of competence couldn't acheive.

Hmmm, maybe I did know how to critique it after all.

 

here is my reponse to those above comments:

While i accept your critique i find it unfair and overly negative.
People tend to think that 3d is easy and it is not, it is as much complicated as doing an actual drawing.

People have that mentality that it is too easy and therefore as no merit.
People like that would say the same for a photographer and would say that it is easy to just go out and take a pic of a waterfall tweak it and display it as art. Some peole will comment that the piece is beautifull while otherwise willalways try to find fault in the technique used to achieve the vision and will always comment the pieces in a negative way. And some people will just look and say wow, this is great. they are really looking at the art and not trying to find fault in everything that the artist`s does.

I think that people are putting down 3d too much think about all the work now done in 3d,,,games ,films etc...it is hard and there is tons of problem that you have to solve.

Art is not reserved only for those good with a pencil...anybody that creates is an artist wathever they use to put out their final vision and those who overly critique or those probably struglling on their own talent and are frustrated they they are not as good as they want to be or not the clone of this and that person.

I could have done stuff in pencil but i chose 3d because i like the medium.. i could have tried to become a clone of masamune shirow or leonardo davinci but there is only one of them and then there is me..so i want to be me and that is it..

as for the the large figure thing...yes i do love big boobs and such..i guess i am normal otherwise i woudl not make my girl that way..

i wrote this in defense of those people who are doing 3d and that are always put down by other because they say it is too easy or that you have to be half decent with a 3d program..

i do accept criticism but unfair ones i don``t and the one above was unfair to me and the 3d population out there...

if my stuff does not belong here then i will remove it to avoid people from being offended by the nature of my art.

I have looked at the site and see incredible talent here and some piece are really outstanding and original and eye pleasing.

thanks

 

and here was the guy`s comments after:

moderator`s Quote:

I have nothing against 3D.

Do I think it's easy? No.

Creating a 3D model from scratch (like ---------'s in his thread) requires a lot of skill, and I admire that. Also, as with a traditional sculpture, the model will have something of the artist's "fingerprints" on it.

Taking a Poser model and enlarging the boobs, however, doesn't require much (if any) skill, and bores me rigid. It has nothing of the artist's "fingerprints" on it, and is pretty much the same as any other standard Poser model - dull.

If there were some personality or creativity shown in the posing, lighting etc, then I may have liked it better - but as it is, in my opinion, what you've done is no more skilled or creative than dressing up a doll or action figure. If you want to view it as some artistic triumph, then go ahead - I think you're deluding yourself, but if it makes you happy, that's all that matters.

Am I being harsh? Probably. Sure, noone likes to have thier flaws and weaknesses bluntly pointed out, but it is helpful to our artistic growth.

Am I being honest? Definitely, for the reason stated above. There's no anti-3D agenda.

Am I being truthful? I think so. Although you will most likely disagree with some (or most) of what I say, perhaps it might give you the impetus to strive to be better (if only to prove me wrong) - and that is advantagious to both you and me.

And finally:
Despite my views, you should feel free to continue posting your work here if you so wish. Please don't take my status as a Moderator to mean that my opinion is anything other than that - there are no rules against 3D.

I just feel like going and kick the guy in the nuts for being such a pompous ass..i have similar reactions on some other websites...

A lot of people like the art i make but it angers me that some pompous clowns come in and instead of saying it is good or bad art, they make you wanna feel like an idiot and an incomptent because you use such and such tools to bring out your vision.

I guess some people share this point of view and are angered by this stupid prejudice and feel the same way i do.

some people will say ...it is same as being popular some people will alway try to bring you down in any shape or form to satisfy their own fragile ego.

let me know how you feel...

Is ther eany chance of seeing the image in question? Difficult to say how (in)valid the guy's critique was without it...

jonthecelt

I hope you have your flame retardant undies on :)

This question or something similar gets posted about once a month and some receive it well and discuss, others get their undies in a bunch and, well... don't discuss, hehe

I myself think art is purely subjective.  It involves being "creative". Art evokes an emotion. If Poser or any type of program or medium allows someone to create something  that stimulates one or more of the senses to evoke an emotion from someone, be it for good or bad, then that's art. 

Besides, painters don't make their own canvass or brushes or paints.  They buy them and use them as the tools to create their art.

People who use programs and produce various types of digital art are using tools, just like the painter or sketch artist uses their tools.  They're just different tools, but it produces the same thing.... art :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I 2nd that motion - lets see it.

JP

I'm not upset. they've been bashing poser since at least '96 (in my experience). nobody's forcing them to look at poser renders, hence they may only click on 'em with bad intentions. 3d snobs using more expensive packages always love to bash poser, but they should remember that they, in turn, are bashed by artists who paint on canvas or draw on bristolboard. to those traditional artists, any image created by 3d software is just a shortcut, devoid of any human feeling.

People who critique '3d art' are typically assuming that the items in the image are all made by the artist. They are not critiquing just the image, but the creations pictured within. It is like critiquing a picture of a sculpture. S/he even says as much when mentioning the 'fingerprints of the artist'.

In the case of Poser, you are using someone else's models to make an image. As a Poser artist your 'art' is the image. It is 'virtual photography' of a sort.

When this critic says s/he does not know how to critique this image s/he is speaking true. S/he is a critic of sculptures who is not looking at the image, s/he is looking at the contents, the sculptures within the image.

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

I get the opposite reaction. People see stuff I've done that I think is lifeless crap and they think it's pretty cool. But I'm moving beyond my crap phase.

hate to say it, but that's not bashing poser.  that's bashing a particular use of poser.  as it says, " This just seems to be a standard 3D model with the breasts enlarged to extreme proportions (and not in a realistic manner either)," and  "Taking a Poser model and enlarging the boobs, however, doesn't require much (if any) skill, and bores me rigid," and "If there were some personality or creativity shown in the posing, lighting etc, then I may have liked it better - but as it is, in my opinion, what you've done is no more skilled or creative than dressing up a doll or action figure." that's not a criticism of poser.  that's a criticism of your work.  even if i disagreed with it (i haven't seen the work, so i can't actually say i would, but i do have a wide range of styles i like), it would still be valid criticism because, well, criticism is always personal.  the moderator even goes out of his/her way to say that the opinion is personal and that you should keep posting.

you might convince me that there was a nicer way that this could have been stated, and i might disagree with the opinion, but i don't see any prejudice here.  there's absolutely no, "poser isn't art," statement. 

in my opinion, you can do one of two things.  you can ignore the critique or try to work on lighting, posing, composition, and morphing.  i really couldn't say which is the right thing, nor could i even if i saw the work in question because you have to follow what you think is best.  but complaining about a negative critique of a nature i've basically seen within the poser community (along with put your figure on the ground, don't use the default lighting, give her some expression and don't have her stare blankly into the distance) is really purposeless.  frankly, it sucks to have one's work criticized (believe me, i know), but it's one of the best ways to have your work get better.  and all the points raised are ones i've seen raised within the community and i have seen such critiques help various artists. 

It's very easy, just take any Poser's critic and ask him:
Ok, Poser is not art, can you show me your magnificent artistic expression of your work?

Stupidity also evolves!

• Let's see the work in question, yeah. 

There's Poser-created art, and then some.  Some of it can be just plain ol' boring toot, uninspired, lacking in vision, re-hashing the same etc.  Some of it is really clever, says something, evokes emotion, bears a message in and of itself, etc. 

Eternal Hobbyist

 

Quote - Besides, painters don't make their own canvass or brushes or paints.  They buy them and use them as the tools to create their art.

To be historically accurate, both Leonardo daVinci and Michelangelo in fact did make their own paints, and often stretched their own canvases.
As for the art part, there are even certain 3d artist, working in such programs as Maya and 3dMax that consider Poser inferior because of the use of stock figures instead of doing everything from scratch.  I once addressed this contention, by saying that if Hollywood had to work under same criteria, then everytime they ever wished to do a movie, then they'd have to go out and select a man and woman, breed them, and then wait 20 to 30 years for their offspring to reach maturity.  All living, breathing, human models are STOCK to a greater or lesser degree.  The artistry is not in the newness of the model, but in how the director, and cameraman has realized a particular vision using him.
In Poser, we build scenes in much the same way as a Playhouse director builds his stagesets, and we make no less reliance on ready made props and scene locations than Universal or Paramont do themselves.  But no one denigates Hollywood as unartistic, the way they do with Poser.
It's probably because Poser is still in its infancy, whereas photography is now hoary with age.  Time and patience will eventually change all this.
David P. Hoadley

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Quote - I just feel like going and kick the guy in the nuts for being such a pompous ass..i have similar reactions on some other websites...

 

ouch...pity the person who offers you an honest critique.

 

is there any chance of seeing the image in question?

 

Cheers

Stefan

Cg Society Portfolio

i think mike angelo or some master sculptor said... it's already made and in the stone...i just have to bring it out. in poser. the model is the base material that holds hides the artwork. you  either bring it out or just rearrange the base material. sounds to me that the mod was saying you just re-arranged it. i've seen what i would call artwork from poser users and i've seen re-arrangements of poser bases. i started using max and from my point of view. those that use max are the sculptors of the 3d world and those that use poser are the painters of it. neither are better than the other. they are two totally differring mediums and as such can't be compared. it's like saying a ballet dancer is better than a ballroom or disco dancer. you can't well you can if you like to critique on format. all we can truthfully use as comparison is how good they are in their own field. on a  scale of 1 to ten in poser art where would the originator of this thread mark his work, where would we mark it. if it falls say  below 4 or 5, then the odds are the mod was right about it and it is just a poser model with big tits. if it gets a 7 or higher then i'd say it has some artistic merit. same goes for max artist.   the main thing to take into account is that most people lie to themselves about their own work....they may say it's crap but deep down they're hoping someone strokes them and tells them different. i know my poser art is crap..i know nothing about lighting etc. at first i thought hey thats good...then i saw  some of the good renders lol. because of this i'm going the max way and trying to create a model from scratch......upto now it seems i have a better grasp of sculptin than painting. i could never achieve many of the results poser people do and because  of that i take my hat off to them. same goes for a lot of model creators...but i think with this i have a chance....given 12 months work or so. dp mentioned a few artist who made  their own paints etc..well a lot did do that but a lot also got them ready made. da, vinci prob got his students to do his for him as did others who had students.art isn't about knowing how to make  the tools we use. it's about knowing how to use any of the tools that are available to us. it's about technique and imagination. it;'s about what we put into it and more importantly what we and others take out of what we create. be it a max model or a poser render, if it looks like shit and it smells like shit, the odds are it's shit. 

 

now is the person who started this thread gonna show us the work so we can actually decide if the mod gave fair comment or not. without it everything thats said about the mod is just hot air. let your poser peers say what they think about it.

 

billy

jmo

 tons of people denigrate hollywood as unartistic.  for, actually, much the same reason as people do poser images.  if you actually read the critique, it was about being original and showing the voice of the artist.  and, even more like criticisms of hollywood, art that's about more than big breasts.  it doesn't say anything about all poser art.  it mentions someone who made their own model, which, yeah, is a great way to force yourself to be original.  but it explicitly says that the moderator did not see any original morphing other than breast size, and didn't feel that originality or skill  was shown in the "posing, lighting, etc." in the image.  not in that those aspects generally didn't show skill, but that in this case they were unoriginal (in the moderator's opinion).    if it's not possible to critique poser work on those points, then there's no point in asking for any critiques at all.
actually, if the public perception of poser follows the same arc as film and photography, it will mean that it will take more and more work and more and more skill on top of a unique vision to make works people see as valid art.  not every snapshot gets shown in a gallery, and not every movie is seen as a great work.

maybe the person has a bias- i certainly don't know enough to say.  maybe this work is, in fact, brilliantly lit, posed, composed, and breathtaking in its execution.  in which case the criticism can be ignored.  but this is pretty useful (if harsh) constructive criticism if one wanted to actually pay attention to it.

and personally, whether i agree with the mod or not, i'd say it's a fair critique because it's an honest assessment of their opinion.  whether it's accurate or not is always going to be a matter of opinion.

In the tradictional pictorial arts there was both art--an aesthetic process--and craft--the technical process of making the image. Photography was only different in the constraints it put on the process, and the ability to easily make multiple copies of a work. But artists had been making woodcuts for centuries. There's a huge amount of Poser stuff posted which shows little sign of either craft or aesthetic judgement; even painting by numbers has somebody deciding the shape of the daubs and which number goes where. And then you can get into the argument of whether or not collage and decoupage can be art. Poser does let you make pictures without learning the craft of draughtmanship. There's some snobbishness about that, but using Poser well is also a craft, and you still have to practise the aesthetic judgement to assemble the scene. Poser can produce art. Not all of us can manage it.

I agree with cobaltdream. I saw no crit of poser itself in that person's crit, only his/her opinion of your work using the prog. It would be good if we could see the pic so we can form an opinion as to wether the crit was warrented.

Jack

From the continued reticence of the original poster, I'm beginning to wonder if we haven't all been had -by a trawling troller.
David P. Hoadley

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

if he wasn't trolling it seems he doesn't feel his work would pass muster or else he would have shared it. is'nt it good though, that from this thread comes the fact that poser people aren't as smug and self satisfying as some would have you believe. nice that they actually came out on the side of fair critique towards their medium of use.

 

billy

 

This was my thinking, as well: since the original poster offered a specific example of critique of his work, I hought it only fair to see the picture on its own merits: the critic did seem to be judging the picture for it's content, rather than its heritage. Without seeing the image itself, it's difficult to know whether that opinion was justified, or whether the guy was, in fact, disguising a general distaste for Poser art with an attack on the picture in particular - i mean, if the picture had been incredible, then this critique just wouldn't stand up.

Looking at the gallery efforts here, there does seem to be some effort put into images beyond the 'use generic character, ramp up the breast size, throw in a stock pose, and render with default lights' kind of thing the critic sems to be suggesting. I'm not sure whether 'warm fuzzy thoughts' is the image that got slated (I REALLY can't see it being the other one!), but if it is, then the critic does seem to have been quite harsh. If it's another image not yet posted here, though, then there's no way of knowing.

As to the possibility of this being a troll... David, not everyone who doesn't return to a thread they created is an evil, forum-baiting lurky thing. It's quite possible that, not having set the thread to automatically notify him of replies, he's lost track of where this thread is, or how people are responding. Looking at his post history, there's no sense of him being the sort of person who sets off a thread purely to cause anger or heated debate. Many of them are geniune questions geared towards learning more about learning the program's inner secrets. True, he's not a regular poster (2 posts in 2003, 3 in 2004... 2005 sees 5 posts, and this year brings another 8), but that simply means he doesn't have a great deal to say. Please, let's give people the benefit of the doubt over their intentions until they prove themselves unworthy?

There, I think that's me done now... I'll crawl back into my hole and be quiet again...

jonthecelt (unused to being the voice of reason, and kinda scared that it was so... painless)

i doubt he's a troll either. i think he just got miffed at a crit he didn't like.

i looked at the two pics in your profile darth and while i quite like the space girl i think it would be more arty if she had some kind of background to put her in some kind of contextual situ.

the nude. if this is the pic the mod saw then to some extent i have to agree with her. it seems like the legs are from a smaller person though this is prob the angle of the pose. other than that i don't know what to say without offending you. for me it lacks good lighting. needs postwork to define the legs so she doesn't seem puppetlike amongst other things, and a background. all in all it doesn't seem to me like much thought or effort went into it. it lacks that thing that makes something art ...the thing words can't describe . ah i know...it lacks composition....i think.  out of ten i would give it a 3 or 4. all that said it has potential to be a lot better. and i'm sure you have the potential to make it so. jmo

 

billy

 

billy

:)

 

 

I'm afraid I will have to agree with the judge on this one, seems like most here at rendo and across the net who do nude figures always get the most responses, I guess the moto is "when in doubt do a nude" all the lustful teengae boys will say, "hey thats one hell of a render" what a great skin texture, then we have all the cute anim crap or maya dolls or whatever you wanna call that sh*t
I keep on wondering when all the cutsie junk will die, keep seeing more and more poser dolls popping up in the market place, who is buying that crap? what on gods earth is it used for?

That critique was well written and probably hit the nail on the head.

One, and probably the main, reason why Poser is badly accepted is that many of its users simply use some clicks to compose something. You click a character for V3, then you click to add a skin, click to add some oily look, click to add hair, click to add a pose to that hair, click to add a texture to that hair, click to add some clothes, click to add a texture for these clothes, click on a pose,  click on a lights setup and that's about it. Fast food. Junk food.

If that is Poser, then it's understandable it isn't accepted by many as being very creative. Luckily we know it is much more. Or better: that it can be much more. Many people I really consider to be artists show that here in the galleries. One of the basic facts of artists -and I live with one that has exhibited all over the world and yes: he makes his own panels and egg-tempera- is that they just don't care and are so immersed in their creation that they even forget how much fun they have whilst creating.

Apart from that: I suggest the mods make a sticky for the "IS POSER ART OR NOT?" thread. That way, we would certainly be in the Guinness book of records for the longest thead ever on the internet.

Have fun, do your thing and forget the rest.

 

"David, not everyone who doesn't return to a thread they created is an evil, forum-baiting lurky thing."

You're right, jonthecelt, and I have most likely wronged the man.  Therefore, let me go on record as tendering my most heartfelt appology.  The Rabbis hold that the greatest sin, equivilent to murder itself, is to slander a fellow human being, even if what we say is true.  If we must rebuke a person, then it should be in private, away from the eys of spectators.
Therefore I wish to say: "I am sorry, please forgive me!"
David P. Hoadley

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

I claim that the "Poser prejudice" is a prejudice. Not every Poser image is a NVIATWAS, and neither is every Maya user frowning upon Poser. For example: http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=374516 http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=249955 http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=253764 http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=184998 http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=253152 http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=269513 http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=271048 http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?t=349157 As for the original poster: I don't see that someone was attacking Poser or you personally there. I see truthful comments about your work (which I assume is what you were hoping to get when you put your work out in public), and if you read it carefully you will find that it gives you quite a few pointers on how to improve your future works.

David, you impress me... it's not often that someone is willing to recant their words and offer a public apology here. I hope you did not take my words as a personal affront to yourself (though you seem not to have done :) )... the word 'troll' is used to often in the world of forae, any time someone offers a point of view which is unpopular or goes against the grain of the majority. sometimes, granted, it is accurate - but often it is not. Nothing stirs a good flame war, however, than suggesting that someone is a troll - whether they are or not.

Once again, David, kudos indeed for your strength of character.

jonthecelt (veering WAY off topic, but feeling he had to write something)

jonthecelt, I was not offended in any way shape or form.  What you said was perfectly true, and by the same manner that one has caused an injury, so must one offer restitution.  There must be a balance -what was done in public must be rectified in public.
David P. Hoadley

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

just for the record-
stewer - oh, i definitely believe the poser prejudice is a prejudice.  and in fact, i think it's a rather self-serving one.  poser isn't art because you just load presets!  but a 3d pic that recreates an unremarkable photo of a celebrity is because, hey, it involved skill.  or a 3d pic of a plain ol' pinup.  just because someone creates everything to make their own nude woman in sexy armor ina temple weilding a ridiculous sword doesn't make it bettter.  or a badly painted version of said material.  if the material were judged instead of the method, then the criticism would have to apply to themselves as well as others.

oh, and dp - your enthusiasm and vigor are equalled only by your honesty and openness.  you're a rare person.

stewer -  ooo, great examples!  i had seen the first few mec4d pics, but not the others.  thanks so much!  oh, and yeah, i didn't imagine that every 3ds max or maya person was biased against poser, either. 

hi guys,

I am reading your comments and i would agree with most of what i have read.

My simple point was that you as a viewer you have taste and taste is a matter of choice. you either like what you see or don`t...

The guy did not really critique the drawinf itself and even if he did i would not really care. i got four persons previous that said wow and cool and such and my art is on some well known websites yes for big boobs lovers..one of editors of the site liked my poser artso much that he gave me access to the website so that i can show my art.

My rant comes from the fact that the guy ridiculed what i used to come to the final piece of art that is shown. And i think that it was unfair for him to do so. I think any method is good wether you are using pen and paper or 3d programs or a sock to make your art. That person feels that because of what i have used seems to think that the art is inferior.

here is a link to my art...i have to warn you that it is big boobs art real simple like pin up style and that you will probably agree with the guy that started the whole thing and say to me that it is uninspired and that is fine...i can live with that..actors makes masterpieces and then they make crappy pictures and they live with it so i will do the same..

have fun and cheers!!!

here is the link below:

http://neoartpost.deviantart.com/

Well, if that latest picture is the one in question, darth... then I have to confess, it does seem a little derivative. PArt of the difficulty with your pin-up work is the complete lack of context to them - without a background or any props or similar, or mood lighting,or a striking pose,  or anything that takes them away from being 'standard', then it's not going to inspire people.

The original critic was not having a go at Poser art in general - he was likening your work to many other derivative pieces of poser art, which, in fairness, is not entirely unfounded. There is little in your work which defines it as yours - no postwork style or camera flourishes. Ok, you could argue that the barcode image makes it recognisably yours... but do you need to see the name 'Vincent' in the corner of a painting to know it's a Van Gogh?

There should be something about the image itself that says something, or that evokes a given mood. Within this particular piece... sorry, but it just doesn't have it for me.

jonthecelt

Making Ends Meet: A single mom does what's necessary. DPH

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Same as before, only more so. DPH No real nudity, but latent intimacy, therefore the flag.

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

"OY! 'Arry! where's thot pink pony and the cricket bat?!"...;)

As a fellow macromasophile (now there's a crossword puzzler..;) I don't have a problem with that, but to be honest, I tend to go with the 'standard sizes' because you have to rerig the clothes, it's nothing but work, work work..;)

Thought experiment..try reposting with a 'flat-chested' model and see what they say...it's supposed to fit in a wine glass, or something like that..;)

Creating on a 1 to 10 scale can be a 10, critiquing is usually a 1 or 2..;)  Now the real trick is to take the 'cliche' and do something new with it. I seem to remember Ernyoka doing an NVIATWAS with a..more 'seasoned' citizen, a coupla years back.

You can post pics almost anywhere ( I see a lot of dupes among the 'communards', the 'artzones', etc. ) If they don't like the show, just take it down the road..;)

 

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

 while i tend to agree that maybe my poser needs background, i have found after experimenting that they detract from the original piece of attraction wich was the figure itself.

I could make arrange to have those fancy castle or rivers or pieces of wood in the backrounds but guess what...everybody is doing that!

I would end up looking and being the clone artist  of a clone of another clone artist. And i do not like the idea.

I plan on adding more as i go along to make the art seem to have less to do with poser but my idea is not to create those wonderfull worlds within poser.

That is one of the reasons why probably people hate poser so much as it is always a figure in some fantastic bacground and there are tons upon tons of poser picture like that.

George Petty a famous pin up artist tended to present just the figure in his art and people liked it.

You have to chose between having something simple or have clutter that makes the piece look like another cloned piece of art.

I could put ten thousand candles within a scene and the figure and all that people would look at is the figure.

If i am doing landscapes then it is a completely different story the scene is what is important therefore my focus will be on the scenery.

My scenes for the moment look empty but all i want is there....

 

"Are you upset at the eternal poser prejudice or..."  etc..

No, I'm not upset at all.
If they don't want to use the methods I use, well that's up to them.
If they don't like any images I produce, that's fine too.

I create my my pics to satisfy me, not anyone else. Very occasionally, I create something that I think that others might appreciate. On those rare occasions, I publish the result. I ignore any criticism that doesn't reflect any helpful advice on the final render.

My tools are: AC3D, Wings, Hexagon, Poser, Vue5I, Bryce, PSP9 and Picture Publisher 8. I use them as and when I think one of them is relevant to get the image I have in mind.

I often get it wrong.

Which is why I don't post images very often.

But also, I don't put my own ego into the pic. So if it gets ignored, or even slated by many, it doesn't matter to me.

I wasn't doing it for everyone else's enjoyment, nor for universal "Hey look at me!! Haven't I done great!!" type approval.

I was doing it for MYSELF!! And if the others don't like it, they can stuff their opinions where the sun don't shine. (Except I'd never tell them that - that'd just boost their egos)....

Cheers,
Diolma

having one's own yahoo group is likely the safest idea. that way, any trolls can be quickly quashed. in the original image in this thread, if the troll didn't like giant-boob renders with no backgrounds, he could have seen that from the thumbnail, and just avoided clicking on it and upsetting the artist with comments belabouring the obvious.

I`m a "Traditional Artist", I have been since I was 8 years old (a very long time ago).  And yes I have sold some works of mine here and there.  So, as a "Traditional Artist" who works with pencil, pen, inks and paint, and still does, I must say than some of my most satisfying work has been done in 3D using poser.  I am not a snob, I love what is being done here, and on other sites, in 3D, digital, and 2d.  Is it art.  Yes. Nuff Said...IMHO.

Quote - I could make arrange to have those fancy castle or rivers or pieces of wood in the backrounds but guess what...everybody is doing that!.

 

then do it or something else in an original way.

 

George Petty a famous pin up artist tended to present just the figure in his art and people liked it

no disrespect but pettys work is of a different calibre. as is olivia whose cheescakes are often just a figure, and not always a whole figure.

billy

 

Quote - "

I create my my pics to satisfy me, not anyone else. Very occasionally, I create something that I think that others might appreciate. On those rare occasions, I publish the result. I ignore any criticism that doesn't reflect any helpful advice on the final render.

Diolma

crit without advice or help is just a vent

 

billy

Quote - having one's own yahoo group is likely the safest idea. that way, any trolls can be quickly quashed. in the original image in this thread, if the troll didn't like giant-boob renders with no backgrounds, he could have seen that from the thumbnail, and just avoided clicking on it and upsetting the artist with comments belabouring the obvious.

why were they a troll?  would this thread have started if the obvious were indeed obvious to the guy who started the thread? and why not leave a comment saying what they did if they didn't like like it. they did leave something more than just ..i hate big tit birds from poser and your work sucks..they did actually mention what they thought would imrove the piece harsh though it was

as for a group where you can simply quash fair crit. thats all well and good if you just want to be stroked by like minded people. jmo

billy

billy, a troll is in the eye of the beholder. :lol: however, in all the poser-related forums I've participated in, a troll is universally defined as somebody who comments negatively on poser renders. it's the cause of innumerable threads like this, because it's very rare in the poser subculture for anybody to say anything bad about a particular poser render. I've found that poser users don't want to hear about the deficiencies of their works. they want supportive comments that will convince them to persevere and to produce superior images, which is a skill that takes alotta time, effort and encouragement.

Quote - billy, a troll is in the eye of the beholder. :lol: however, in all the poser-related forums I've participated in, a troll is universally defined as somebody who comments negatively on poser renders. it's the cause of innumerable threads like this, because it's very rare in the poser subculture for anybody to say anything bad about a particular poser render. I've found that poser users don't want to hear about the deficiencies of their works. they want supportive comments that will convince them to persevere and to produce superior images, which is a skill that takes alotta time, effort and encouragement.

lmao at the eye of the beholder nancy.

i understand what you're saying though if people in any genre of art realize that a small amount of fair and sometimes negative crit when given with sound advice and intelligent feedback will go a lot further in allowing the recipient to advance their craft than all the backslapping and ego stroking they give to each other which usually onlymeans they never learn and still throw out the same ole same ole boring run of the mill dross tinme after boring time. i admit some do it cos they like  it but what i can't understand is why they don't want to improve. maybe they should have a real critique forum for poser where thopse that have thicker skins can throw their stuff and get real crit that really does help them improve. things along the lines of...this doesn't work for me because a, b and c etc. if we had something like that maybe some of those who think they pump out art could actually begin to learn their craft and pump out some real art. again, jmo lol

 

billy

:)

 

 

 

There is no problem with using pre-made 3D items (this includes Poser Figures)...

I'm terrible at making humaniod 3D characters, thus I have purchased poser to help me out... (why reinvent the wheel?) In most repects I do agree with the person who critiqued your render.

This is also the reason why "I" havent done a completed render in poser on this site (or any) until I feel that I could use it proficiently. Sure, I could throw together a wack of items on a figure and do a kewl effect with lighting... but I dont want to do that with poser... I want to be able to use poser and mold it as clay in my hands, I want to take a figure and create something unique out of it... so people who view it have to second guess that the figure was from poser.

I hope this pushes you towards another level... take poser and mold it darthbobvilla! Into something that doesnt scream "Poser". Keep on creating.

 

Carrara 7 Pro, Anime Studio Pro 8, Hexagon 2.5, Zbrush 4.6, trueSpace 7.6, and Corel Draw X3. Manga Studio 4EX, Open Canvas 5, WACOM Cintiq 12WX User

Personally, I don't like figures rendered against a blank background. I like my pictures to have the illusion that they are something you are actually looking at. If you don't want a distraction, pose against a curtain or a wall, but a plain solid colour looks like a failure of the imagination.

Backgrounds only detract from the foreground when done badly. A good background enhances the foreground.

i agree phantast

and also a middleground in many cases. with simple shading even a curtain can have all three .even a simple three line sketch behind the figure can be utilised to  at give least an impression the figures in a room.(lines that are inside the peace symbol) add to that a few pen strokes to denote floor and wall and the background starts to live. adding more depth to the shading brings as you say the forground alive. it puts them in context./

 

billy

 

Are you upset at the eternal poser prejudice or art done in poser is not art ?>

No.

Gallery

Actually we have the last laugh at these snobs.

If the 3D work they do is so superior so good, esp. the models, they'd be converting them for us to BUY.

How many folks were upset that Kim Goosens converted Girl for use in Poser?

The folks who didn't have Poser.

All of those requests to release her  and POSER users got her and he (Kim G.) made some $$$$$.

If the snobs work is so good, make some money off of us Poser "losers".

Oh, but wait. It's about ART not MONEY.

Nevermind! :)

 

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Can Poser be used to create "art?"

Look here ... and then ... you decide :biggrin:

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Quote - But no one denigates Hollywood as unartistic, the way they do with Poser.
David P. Hoadley

coughChoke*  Yes they do! Hehehe... Every day of the week!

... and usually twice on Sunday, heh, heh. ;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Quote - Actually we have the last laugh at these snobs.

If the 3D work they do is so superior so good, esp. the models, they'd be converting them for us to BUY.

and you think the models poser  uses are made where....in photoshop....in never never land....or perhaps in 3d modelling programs. every single model poser people buy or use is made directly using a 3d app. even the morphs and textures can be said to be their because of the 3d app. without them you wouldn't be able to take the prop or figure into poser and texture or morph. without the 3d app there would be no poser per say. ...so in that respect they in fact have the last laugh. why is it always about them and us for gods sake. why can't we just agree that there is good great and bad artists in both kind of formats and leave it at that.

 

billy

 

Quote - I just feel like going and kick the guy in the nuts for being such a pompous ass...

That might make you feel better, but I can guarentee you it won't improve your artwork one little bit. Rather than kicking him in the nuts, you should buy the guy a beer and ask him to crit more of your work in more detail. You see, he knows what he is talking about and he was offering you some very valuable pointers, but in your indignation you missed them completely.

The most important point he makes is this one: "It has nothing of the artist's "fingerprints" on it". That, right there is what is wrong with most Poser art and it is why the Max and Maya crowd on the one hand and the traditional graphics folk on the other all say that Poser isn't really art.

The most important ingredient in any artwork is the piece of the artist himself/herself which remains in that artwork when it is finished. Art is only art because of the 'fingerprints' of the artist evident in it. The simpler the tool used to make the artwork, the greater versatility and subtlety is possible with it*. And more of the person wielding the tools gets into the work. Spontaneous decisions can be made if the tools are direct and simple, a brush, a pencil, a lump of clay, and it's why something hand-drawn or hand-made is so persuasive.

*Now some might argue that more versatility and subtlety is possible with a tool like Poser than with a tool like, say, a pencil - because it gives you more 'options'. The trouble is that Poser (or 3D rendering in general) is so hugely technically complex that very few of us can ever hope to get beyond a very basic grasp of what the various buttons do. We'll never master it in the way a good pencil artist has mastered his/her pencil. On top of that, most pencil artists started young, most Poser artists discovered it only recently.

In reality, while making a picture with Poser we have to expend a lot of energy 'taming the beast', grappling with the complex technical aspects and we don't get very much opportunity to instill something of ourselves into the work, it's even easy to forget that that was actually the point of the whole exercise. Poser is really not the ideal medium for self expression because it is so damn cumbersome, and unless you are skilled enough to really impose your will on it, there's a sameness about the images it produces.

As your critic friend said, the Max/MAya people who make everything themselves have more opportunity to leave their marks on the work, but the downside to that is that there's a huge mountain of additional technical skills needed to pull it off.

I really think you should re-read his comments. His criticism was that he couldn't see enough of you (as an artist) evident in the image. I haven't looked at the image, I don't need to to know that his comment applies to a lot of Poser art.

Quote - "Are you upset at the eternal poser prejudice or..."  etc..

I create my my pics to satisfy me, not anyone else. Very occasionally, I create something that I think that others might appreciate. On those rare occasions, I publish the result. I ignore any criticism that doesn't reflect any helpful advice on the final render.

Cheers,
Diolma

the above is fair comment and i would do the same.  just saying i don't like it isn't good crit. saying something in the render doesn't work for me because a, b, or c does. often an outside eye spots something we miss. it's like playing patience with cards. it's always the guy standing over our shoulder who spots the red queen for the black king. often wwe get that close to our own work we can't see the wood for the trees jmo

billy

Quote - > Quote - I just feel like going and kick the guy in the nuts for being such a pompous ass...

I really think you should re-read his comments. I haven't looked at the image, I don't need to to know that his comment applies to a lot of Poser art.

Here, hear, for a good succinct analysis of what's "wrong" with Poser art. Or rather, with a great deal of mediocre art. I have looked at the picture, and I've been biting my tongue ever since. The only thing that stands out about the picture is the size of the mammaries. Otherwise, it is little more than a imitative visual cliche. That is, not only is it a cliche, but it is a cliche of a cliche.

I would state that opinion more gently if the artist had not announced his desire to harm the critic. That reaction suggests a misplaced estimate of the picture's worth and an inability to accept criticism that is preinfantile. If the artist is so thin-skinned that he can't endure even the most objective criticism, he's foolish to post his pictures in art forums, where people who actually can assess them might see them. Fire up the ole' Epson and show them off to the boys smoking outside the school. "Duuuuuude! Look at the tits!! [snort] [choke]"

PS: On the subject of "putting yourself in the art:" On the one hand, I agree that great art has a "self" put in it, as in "self-expression" (which does not, as some folks believe, mean "doing what you want" but "transferring your self into something else..." a bit like making love as opposed to masturbating). On the other hand, I think all art does, in fact, express the self, but the self it expresses may not be one we meant to express. And it may not be one the rest of us care to meet. And it may, in fact, be a self characterized by lack of imagination, creativity, or charm.

well siad mick

 

billy

Quote - The most important point he makes is this one: "It has nothing of the artist's "fingerprints" on it". That, right there is what is wrong with most Poser art and it is why the Max and Maya crowd on the one hand and the traditional graphics folk on the other all say that Poser isn't really art.

Oh, that is so so so so so true.

Yet it is nothing about Poser or 3D per se, but about the badness of the way that so many people use Poser. It is not the fault of the medium. It's like photography - any idiot can pick up a camera and press the button, which the reason that 99.999% of photos have no artistic merit.

There is a site I frequent which uses a rather poor gallery software. The gallery page shows you thumbnails that are all auto-generated, i.e. the image shrunk to thumbnail size; plus it shows you the date posted (only). Now there are some artists who post there, I just have to see a glimpse of the thumbnail and I know it's their work, and I'm right. That's because they are artists, and everything they do is imbued with their personal style.

It's still Poser.

Quote - Yet it is nothing about Poser or 3D per se, but about the badness of the way that so many people use Poser. It is not the fault of the medium.

Well the medium is difficult. I think that a lot of Poser artists are pleased just to get a convincing image (believable pose, clothes and textures) and an okay render (okay lighting and shadows). To get beyond that takes a huge amount of skill. First you need the same experienced eye that all other artists require, the eye that can see the difference between a picture that is working and one that isn't, the eye that can figure out what it needs to make it work. That's often regarded as a natural talent, a gift, something you either have or you don't.

Then, in addition, you need the specialized technical skills to twiddle a bunch of confusing dials to bring about whatever changes your discerning eye has called for. These skills can be taught, and I'm sure a good number of XSI/Max/Maya users have some formal training, but I reckon the vast majority of Poser users are self-taught and just don't know enough to get the software to make the images they are aiming at.

Given that Poser is, in a sense, like 3D clip-art, with everyone picking stuff from the same giant catalogue to use in their work, the odds are stacked against your average Poser user producing unique, exemplary work. Those who do succeed are to be commended. But as long as everyone has fun doing what they do, it's all good.

Actually, if the artist's objective is something like  organic realism, the medium is a problem, because it is a digital meduim imposing order on an analog subject. Personally, I consider the organic vs. mechanical (call it analog/digital or meat/metal, same difference) problem the most fundamental problem of contemporary Western thought, and digital art is just one more, relatively minor, instance of it. Analog reality is not reducible to ordered equal units. Quantum physics has put that bit of scientific dogma to bed with no pudding.

M

Actually, if the artist's objective is something like  organic realism, the medium is a problem, because it is a digital medium imposing order on an analog subject. Personally, I consider the organic vs. mechanical (call it analog/digital or meat/metal, same difference) problem the most fundamental problem of contemporary Western thought, and digital art is just one more, relatively minor, instance of it. Analog reality is not reducible to ordered equal units. Quantum physics has put that bit of scientific dogma to bed with no pudding.

M

I always thought that it was the opposite, ie quantum physics proved that 'analog' reality was made up of indivisible units (of energy and matter) when everyone had been thinking it was one continuous stream. The word Quantum/Quanta itself means discrete unit BTW

In any case it is very refreshing to see the previous few comments around this place. I wish more poser users thought the same way as you guys so that we could see better quality work. Usually i find a lot of Poser work to be quite dull simply because it is so generic (even if executed brilliantly) I mean if it was work done in Maya or MAX, then at least you could forgive the cliches cause the technical difficulties are enormous. But in Poser where everything is so much easier and you get a lot of stuff prepackaged for you, i would think that at least there would be more originality in theme, but its usually the opposite. Never quite understood that frankly...

Quote - I always thought that it was the opposite, ie quantum physics proved that 'analog' reality was made up of indivisible units (of energy and matter) when everyone had been thinking it was one continuous stream. The word Quantum/Quanta itself means discrete unit BTW

Like the wave/particle argument: We are both right. It's that indeterminancy element of quantum physics that I was referring to, not the idea that there are discrete units. It's not the unitary nature of reality that is "anti-binary," it's the lack of uniformity. I'm way out of my scientific depth here, but I think the difference between a chemical photo and a digital photo is a good analogy.

Digital photos present data in a uniform grid. A rectangle of 0,0,0 surrounded by eight 255,255,255 rectangles the same size and shape is a minimal eyeball. Crisping the resolution simply means more, smaller rectangles and more discrete colors, possibly more than the human eye can distinguish, laid on a grid, the dots smaller than the "circle of confusion." Magnifying the image eventually brings the regular polygons back to the foreground, so to speak. Think of the difference between magnifying a digital photo and an analog photo.

A "real" photograph resolves, as you magnify it, into irregular blobs, not 2D shapes. I suppose the boundaries of the blobs may be fractal (I'm not sure how fractals fit in here, but they occupy a place in my theology similar to the heresy of randomness), but I'm dubious, since fractals are regular and halide stains don't seem to be.

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Well chemical photos also use particles of silver halides as their 'pixels' so that is also digital in a sense since the light is recorded on these discrete elements. That is where the term 'film grain' comes from and refers to how fine the particles are.

But I understand what you mean here, that there is too much rigid structure in anything to do with computer systems and they may not accurately duplicate real world or organic phenomenon. I know for sure that im able to appreciate real paintings better because i can see their paint strokes and smell the paint rather then the impersonal nature of CG work. However IMO this is still no excuse for people to make tedious art. Many artists overcome the limits of CG to produce breathtaking work that they never touched outside their wacoms. Look at some of the work of Linda Bergkvist for example:

http://enayla.cgsociety.org/gallery/

She works entirely in digital media (in painter and photshop i believe) and yet produces beautiful work. It really is all about the artist, not the tool (2D or 3D or analog or digital)

intriguing image, geep. OS X and vista have something called "sub-pixel rendering", hence you may have a pleasant surprise when you get a copy of the latter.

Thanks Nance,

re: sub-thingies

Um, maybe so, but you kain't "sub-pixel" the pixels on yer moniter, kin ye? :biggrin:

;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Quote - Well chemical photos also use particles of silver halides as their 'pixels' so that is also digital in a sense since the light is recorded on these discrete elements. That is where the term 'film grain' comes from and refers to how fine the particles are.

But I understand what you mean here, that there is too much rigid structure i...

However IMO this is still no excuse

I'm in complete agreement with your second point. My impression of the grain is silver halide particlxes is that no matter how much you magnify it, it remains irregular. It's the irregularity that gives it "life," and getting that with a digital photo is always a bit of trickery. Like, as I said, generating "random" numbers.

... or just using Anti-alias ............ or Uncle Other Name ...... if Anti is not available.

;=]

Remember ... "With Poser, all things are possible, and poseable!"

cheers,

dr geep ... :o]

edited 10/5/2019

Quote - > Quote - Yet it is nothing about Poser or 3D per se, but about the badness of the way that so many people use Poser. It is not the fault of the medium.

Well the medium is difficult. I think that a lot of Poser artists are pleased just to get a convincing image (believable pose, clothes and textures) and an okay render (okay lighting and shadows). To get beyond that takes a huge amount of skill. First you need the same experienced eye that all other artists require, the eye that can see the difference between a picture that is working and one that isn't, the eye that can figure out what it needs to make it work. That's often regarded as a natural talent, a gift, something you either have or you don't.

A.Y. Jackson was asked which was easier, watercolour or oils.

"It's all difficult," was his reply.

I'm replying a little late...but it looks like you ran into what I call an "Art Snob,"
DarthBobVilla. You'll find them in every field of art.  I'm a professional writer, and for many years, I hosted a writer's forum where similar arguments often arose, only the fight would be about literary work versus mass market writing.  Some writers feel that anything written for the mass market is certain crap--just as some artists feel that any artwork made with Poser is somehow inferior.  Such a critical conclusion just makes the snobs feel better about their own artistic efforts.  Ignore such people.  They're shallow and not worth knowing anyhow.  Do the type of artwork that you like to do; for art, above all things, is an expression of creativity.  :-) 

Bobette

Quote - I'm afraid I will have to agree with the judge on this one, seems like most here at rendo and across the net who do nude figures always get the most responses, I guess the moto is "when in doubt do a nude" all the lustful teengae boys will say, "hey thats one hell of a render" what a great skin texture, then we have all the cute anim crap or maya dolls or whatever you wanna call that sh*t
I keep on wondering when all the cutsie junk will die, keep seeing more and more poser dolls popping up in the market place, who is buying that crap? what on gods earth is it used for?

Unfortunately I am having lots of fun with the maya doll and aiko type characters. I can't draw them but they make a great start for an illistration and as a web designer illistrated people are the in thing right now amongst alot of women owned businesses. They want cute adorable illistrations for their websites. Personally I would love to see more respectable clothing options and props. Not everyone wants their finished renders wearing skirts with their butt cheeks hanging out or shirts with their boobs hanging out. I am not saying they are not all creative art just not something I am in to. And I am sure I am not alone in that.
Shannon