well maybe there is a little simple explanation...

Not everybody has $3700 for 3Dmax or Maya ... so ...

Be happy you can spent over $ 7.000 for the programs you have bought ... i do take you did buy it.

Dont think your better then others because you can make something from scratch...

Let people be happy with what they do and dont call em names in anyway....

And if you so good why not sell your supreme models to the one that can make em..you get money for it to buy ILM in time..

And using the F wordt all the time does not make your stament stronger it only shows that you'r "good" at modeling not good in using your words.... Chris

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So photographers are no artists either because they work with models they didn't make but just pose and arrange?

Well okay chris, I like to say Fuck, if it offended you, maybe you should have checked the advisory. As for having 7000 bucks, do your research, haven't you ever heard of Student Versions... that could be a reason for not selling my "supreme models" . Art in any medium is an adventure to be taken, it is a journey to understand that which is unknown, it is used to express the feeling and emotions of ones life. It is not for the timmid (posers). If you are afraid of that journey, if you are scared to reach into the world of experimentation and the unknown, then you aren't an artist and you dont belong in some of these galleries.. . of course that is only one mans opinion. Look its simple, I understand that not everyone can to these things, shit, I'm still an amature. I have watched a good friend of mine spend 250$ (not thousands) to buy the student version then he taugt himself the basics in a matter of weeks. Poser is good... for posers. These Posers just need to keep there "Models" in the POSER gallery and stop flooding the rest of them. I work hard on my models and I hate the fact that these Posers push me off of the first page of a gallery with in a couple hours.

well if thats the reason why you started this thread ... maybe its not the "posers" making the error

but R,O maybe the Moddelers gallerie should state Only 3D models build by yourself from scratch... or something like that ...but i just checked the 3Dmodeler gallerie it says :It is open to all 3D modeling applications but is restricted to displaying 3D models created by the member.

And when i check the 2 pages there i see only own build models ..so what was your point and what gallerie do you mean ?

And student versions are only for students so what i sayed stays not everybody has 3500. for 3Dmax ... be lucky you are a student ...

Chris

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Quote - So photographers are no artists either because they work with models they didn't make but just pose and arrange?

1me·di·um

Pronunciation: 'mE-dE-&m

2e.material or technical means of artistic expression

we arent talking about photography, we are talking about 3dModeling. The "3D Modeler". Photography by nature is a form of art that doesnt even come close to being realitive to this topic. In photography you capture what nature has handed you in the 3D world the artist creates it. If you like to pose models and rearrage them, become a photographer. But, if you insist on doing it in 3D then lets start a new medium, a new catogory of art, lets call it Phodoling. Simply put, these people just aren't 3D Artist or 3D Modelers, thier 3D Phodolers. Put your shit in the right gallery and quit leaving them in a gallery because it has more traffic.

Okay, I'm all for free speech and on some levels I do understand your disappointment with some of the Poser community, however, that is not to suggest that anyone using the software is beyond hope of producing art worthy of mention. I have seen tons of art from the Poser community that actually impresses me...I've also seen twice as much that makes me wonder why some people even bother posting. Point is, at the end of it all, it all has the right to be seen and regardless of my personal views, all of it can be considered art. Just because you or I may detest the naked woman with overly large breasts next to a dragon in a temple images doesn't mean that someone else doesn't appreciate it. Poser is a tool, like anyother. The program can't be faulted for what people do with it. I've seen loads of people turn out complete garbage from programs like Max and Maya but because they made it from scratch does that make it better garbage? Not really.

What makes art interesting is the thought behind it, almost as much as how it's carried out. So who cares if you can model the Hulk? I can buy one that's at least as good but can you render it in a full environment with full post work and proper composition? There's more to Poser than just clicking a button. Many pros who look down on the software (and there are many who don't) need to realize that just because you're given a pre-made model (like they are every day in the movie biz...you think animators make those things? nope) doesn't mean you're work is done. You still have to set up your scene, set up your lights, setup your camera, your compostion, render passes, post work...there's a LOT involved in producing a quality Poser image...in fact...the same requirements in producing an image in any package! Who knew?

Consider films like The Incredibles or Shrek, modelers make the characters and then send it off to animators...the animators then animate the characters to interact with a scene and send it off to lighting technical directors who light and texture the scene and render out the final image where it then goes into post work for full compositing. That's like four people working to get one scene done and only one of them having anything to do with actually creating the models involved. So does that mean all those other people are jus "posers" who don't deserve their jobs or the acclaim the films they've worked on have recieved? Of course not. So why, when you look at a Poser image which has gone through the same process, with the exception of the fact only one person worked on it, is that image any less appreciated? Be easy, these people...the ones who care enough to put a scene together...deserve their place in the gallery. Besides, if views are all you wanted, you really miss the whole point of the galleyr anyway in my opinion. Afterall, we're supposed to be here to make eachother better artists, not rip on someone because they can't model worth a damn and can only express their ideas using pre-made materials....

Oh and on a side note, some people are better at modeling vehicles than they are at modeling people, so if Poser offers people with ease, why can't they use it in their 3DStudio Max, Maya or XSI scenes? Seems silly to gripe over this, really.

And i think its the amount of program used that makes it where to put it... i one makes a whole city in MAX and for his render he puts a poser model in front of it ..should it be in Max or poser gallerie...

Now you deside max or poser 90% of the work is done in max, 10% in poser but the poser figure is in front...

But when all you care about is the views from the gallerie ..well learn learn and learn, so when starwars 7,8,9 come out your name can be on the credit roll...

Chris

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Every one tries to tie this arguement into the filming industry, okay next time you see a CG Movie and those credits go screaming by, try to name 3 modelers 10 minutes later... it wont happen, however try to remember the name of the production agency or the director or producer. Chances are you will. They are the one that make it all happen. Sure they use a library of assets but those assests were created from scratch. These are guys that work in teams for those agencies, thats different, that agencies name becomes your own. One of the largest reasons for this thread was to help some of these artists, and if those targeted read this they will understand. They will get it. They are the one who will have that feeling, that "I wish I could do more", they are the one that when they show a Peice to their work to friends or family they hate the fact that they have to say... "I did it in poser". They want to make their own characters. Make your own characters, build your own library. Earn that sense of accomplishment. Dont piggy back off of someone else.

And Chris, feel lucky Im in school? shit man, its not like I drew the right numbers for a lotto, I decided to go. I am a grown man with a morgage and a family. Lucky? Its a pain in the ass, but I love it and I am doing it.

Oh, Bar-Code, the 3D Modeling gallery is only for models built from scratch, as we're looking at the model and not the scene. The other galleries aren't though. Just an FYI for everyone, really.

Dont tell me that any of you out there arent here to get your work shown, of course Im worried about views, yeah okay, I put 200 million dollars into this movie and I dont want people to see it... I havent missed any point of this gallery. My bitch is with those who flood a gallery with some character they bought.

back to you Chris, if the focal point of your scene is a poser, well, kind of self explainitory dont you think?

Well so am i ..still you can feel lucky you can get max for Student price and get classes in modeling.

I can affort the classes still i have to learn the tricks and trades of 3D modeling myself from try and error and the only thing i have are manuals and this community..

I realy did wish i can get 3dMax for $250. but i got to do with HEX etc etc that cost a lot less.

So feel lucky anyway ..

Im 41 so i know what your saying... but i still think you going about it in the wrong way..

Chris

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Teyon wrote:Oh, Bar-Code, the 3D Modeling gallery is only for models built from scratch, as we're looking at the model and not the scene. The other galleries aren't though. Just an FYI for everyone, really.

Did i not say that ? ! ;-} i even copy/ paste the rule from the gallerie ...

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Attached Link: http://www.kolbyjukes.com/

Well, I'm all for helping folks but tone plays into that too and initially, you let your tone play against your desire to help. It came off more as an angry rant, which, as I said before I can also understand to an extent. I would like to point out (and he's gonna kill me for this) that some of today's top modelers, like Kolby Jukes of Raven Software, started out using Poser. Heck, I even started out using Poser and now, I'm giving back to that community and making a little cash on the side to boot. Also, it's not unheard of for studios to re-use materials, Raven does it for the games they make and to be honest...even a Poser model had to be created before it got into Poser to begin with, eh? :) Look, I feel ya, I do, there's alot of people using Poser for all the wrong reasons but there are those who are using it to learn some of the more important things like setting up a scene and lighting, things modelers tend to screw up royaly. Having worked at LEGO, I've met a few guys who, after a hard day of making toys, would go home and make a fully textured model...great modeling but they couldn't texture worth a cent. Who's to say spending a little time practicing that wouldn't have been good? Now, who's to say that that's exactly what some of these Poser users see Poser as? I'm sure they're the minority but still...people looking to get into modeling will find their way, good or ill and if Poser happens to be a stepping stone, great! If not, that's okay too. At the end of it all, it's where you finish that counts, not where you start.

Sorry Bar-code, mis-read it. My bad.

hey chris, check out Alias, they give away a free unlimited trial version of Maya. No 90 day shit, unlimited, if you are really interested in learning how to do this stuff, you wont be frightened of the watermark... ITS FREE

At the end of it all, it's where you finish that counts, not where you start.

Point well taken, its been real, model on... and yes by any means

Later

I second the Maya freebie! Anyone interested in learning Maya should really grab hold of it. I think XSI has a similar tool but it's only for modifying games like Half-Life, so I'm not sure how fully functional it is. Still, the Maya PLE is a no brainer in my book. I mean, I don't like working in Maya for modeling (I prefer Silo above all) but it's a great tool for those who get into it. Good call DarkSkies!

Thnx for the tip about Maya .. i just have printed out"in a copyshop" 30Kilo "60 pounds" of manuals from programs i bought.. so i stay with them for now :}

I only wish for a copy of 3dMAX, i worked with MAX for 2 months on a company system..

My 2 first freebee's where made in max and i didnot had a clue how to use it.. still my 2 SF scene where verry welcome here so they can't be that bad :}

Now i work a lot in HEX2 its diffrent and not as good as 3dMAX but hey i paid 1.99 for it :}

the only thing i realy mis in other programs is the UVW unwrap from max ... others can do it or are realy bad in it :{

Chris

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Mmmm well free is free duhhh ... Maya Freeversion .. where is it ? what URL.

Chris

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Attached Link: http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/index?siteID=123112&id=6902573

Oops. I'm slipping these days. Here's a link to the page where you can get a copy.

danke, merci, toda raba, dankje, thank you !!

Chris

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Teyon and Chris,

You guys might not have liked the way I started this thread but as Teyon put so elgently, it's where you finish that counts, not where you start. I hope you, Chris, will begin the journey of a 3D modeler, I hope you learn fast and learn well, I hope that you will gain the feeling that you, yourself have created a masterpiece and that you earned that credit.

Model on,

DarkSkies

Agreed! And both of you, please, keep posting! WIPS, thoughts on modeling, any old thing that tickles your fancy. Discussion is the best tool we have for learning and I will never silence anyone (unless they get really nasty), so please, keep posting your work and your thoughts. :)

Attached Link: http://excalibur.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1251176

I already have that feeling when i see "POSERS" :} using my freestuf... and most of the time they give me credit for the model but if they dont i give it myself ... if you check the link you see a F1 future model i made in HEX and i try to make it with a minimum of diffrent parts... the main body is 1 part a sphere modeled to a "full" f1 body incl. the wing on the back, side pods ... i know the feeling of making things from scratch.. but thnx for the heads up

Chris

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One thing to model you don't need Max or Maya. ther eare pleanty of free or low cost options out there. You can add a inexpensive rendering package and there you go. Wings Blender Anim8tor are all free.

As far as poseur being the number one thing here well it is a poseur site. That is part of the terrain here. It is kind of sad that many do not even bother to appreaciate what is made in other packages and pictures without naked people.

I used poser for a while too but I always felt my images were not my own so I stopped. Many people can model some great stuff but have difficulties with people or just dont want to spend all the extra time to make a person for their pic so they use poser to put a pilot in their plane or someone to stand by there car etc. I always felt that is what the program is meant for. Not for computer enhanced softcore porn which is what there is alot of here.

This is a big community here you can ignor the poseur stuff or you can also find another site with more like minded people.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

I just started modelling in Hexagon and Shade, and I find it liberating (from having to buy other people's things) to make some stuff I need, particularly for human figures, like clothing, hair, other odd bits. I tried Wings 3D and MetasequoiaLE, but I don't seem to use those very well.

I have been using Poser for couple of years before this, and well yeah to me, it's like playing with dolls in 3D. And then one day I woke up and felt the urge to do more than just make up an interesting picture to render. So, I really tried building something from zero. I certainly can't do the more complicated 3D modelling - yet. But it's a lot of fun amd I hope pure Poser users who haven't tried modelling will do so sometime. ( Poser scene composition and 3D modelling are hobbies for me.)

But please, there's really no need to start a public thread with language like that.

And, sure, I'd be still be buying Poser-useable products made by others, If I think those items are interesting enough for me.

So, yes, people should read Gallery specifications more carefully and post with the appropriate classification(s). And yes, I find it beginngin to be very tiresome to look at NVIATWS - yawn such a no-brainer render subject, blah....

Eternal Hobbyist

"...so they use poser to put a pilot in their plane or someone to stand by there car etc. I always felt that is what the program is meant for."

Yeah it's useful to get a figure or two into a scene if only to set the scale for your own models. Get the pose right in Poser then export it into your rendering app. It definitely has its uses.

I have already been called the POSER anti-christ this week and have put about 20 Rosity members off side, so climbing into this thread seems like an obvious extention to the argument.

Most, but NOT all poser images are CRAP. The Naked Vicky syndrome, like a nasty virus has infected the user base. The victims, in there delirium believe they are ARTISTS creating something worth while. Fellow sufferers re-enforce this delusion by posting comments such as "WOW" and "You are an amazing artist." It is this re-enforcement that creates most of the problems. They actually believe it, and feel anybody with a contrary view doesn't know what they are talking about.

A woman sitting on a throne in lingerie, with vampire teeth is not my idea of the queen of the damned. And a naked woman carrying a big gun is no assassin. But in the Poser world each is par for the course. Throw in a "waiting for the lover" image and you just about have the full range of most users images.

Now I have to admit, as a male member of the species I have no aversion to young, and not so young ladies forgetting to put their clothes on. Photos of these poor unfortunates have been known to grab my attention. But poser images are about as exciting as my daughters Barbie dolls. Creating Poser images is little different to dressing them up and posting the images.

omg...so you're saying barbi dolls are'nt sexy and exciting?....shame on you

max is max, poser is poser. two different progs for two distinct purposes. both can use the other to good effect if used properly. i'm still not doing either properly lmao.

if i had a question it would be......what would be the reaction if a person made a model in max took it to poser, boned and textured it, did a render and placed said render in the max gallery. would you know max was used without being told? i presume most of the renders use stuff that was modelled in a 3d prog like max, lets say one of them are using a prop made in one of them by the preson doing the render. lets say it's a beach ball prop. if we stick to the letter of what can be posted in the gallery does this comply. .again how would you know if no one says prop made by me?

billy

it's okay barbie, don't listen. they don't know what they're taling about.

I think that since the Poser gallery became...."for images RENDERED in Poser only" alot of folks have starting posting to the galleries of their Renderer of choice. I know this has impacted the Lightwave gallery. I don't much choose to look at the Poser gallery, anymore. But, when I am looking through the galleries for other more serious applications, seeing a bunch of Posers, with no disclaimer that they are using Vicki or Michael or whoever, really bothers me.

"Dont tell me that any of you out there arent here to get your work shown, of course Im worried about views, yeah okay"

I wouldn't post to Renderosity in hopes of getting my work shown. I sometimes show what I've finished in the LW gallery, but, mostly don't post here, period. Maybe, one day I will be good enough to be "shown", hopefully at Raph, or on the frontpage of CGTalk. Until then, I'm pretty happy doing what I do and sharing with real world folks.

THE POINT OF PUTTING YOUR WORK ANYWHERE IS FOR OTHERS TO SEE IT. ART IS A STYLE OF COMMUNICATION. WANTING TO SHARE YOUR IMAGES WITH OTHERS IS WANTING THEM TO LOOK AT THEM. ART IS WHAT IT IS, COMMUNIACTION. IF YOU ARENT WORRIED ABOUT BEING SEEN, THEN YOU ARE A HOBBYIST. BIG DIFFERENCE. FOR MANY IN THE POSER FEILD TO ME, ARE HOBBYIST. MAYBE I DID MISUNDERSTAND THE PURPOSE OF RENDEROSITY. I GUESS CHOOSING ANOTHER SITE WITH STRICTER POLICIES IS SOMETHING WORTH RESEARCHING. POSER SUCKS, THAT IS MY OPINION. IT IS FOR THOSE WITH NO TALENT AND NO PATIENCE. I HAVE SEEN SOME PRETTY AMAZING POSER PICTURES OUT THERE, AND I WAS VERY IMPRESSED, BUT I WASN'T LOOKING AT THE POSER'S WORK, SURE THEY DID A GOOD JOB OF MAKING SOMEONE ELSES ART LOOK GREAT, BUT THE IMAGES BELONG TO THOSE WHO MADE THEM, EVERYTHING ELSE IS PLAGARISIM WITH PERMISSION . IF YOU PLAN ON WAITING FOR A DEBUTE ON THE FRONT PAGE OF SOMETHING BIG. A BIT OF ADVISE;

"THERE ISN'T ANY MASTERPIECE OR LEGACY THAT TOOK LESS THEN A LIFE TIME TO CREATE."

depends what you mean by legacy. some only take a few minutes to create.

billy

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1258173

Poser does irritate me when it comes to doing yrou own charaacters and building them up in a modeling app and noone reallycares about the difference or even knows. And make it worse if you post it in a non poser gallery you can hear the crickets chirping. It is true everyone here is her eso they can get some otehr people to see their work. But the most popular work ends up being 15 minute bigg boob poser masterpeices. If soem of the greatest character modelers posted here which many don't anymore their work will be only marginally received even though their talent far exceeds and eclipses those who only use poser.

I don't use poser because I feel I don't own my art if I use someone elses stuff and poser someone did create that and you are showing it and taking credit for it like you made it yourself. Just thought I woudl show my latest character (my avitar) modeled in Wings I think he is pretty cool.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

oh my god dude!!!!!

you need to get laid!!!!!!!!!!!, smoke something!!! drink something!!!! just chill out!

i can picture your face getting all read and veins popping out! dont die on us now! you gave me some good laughs in this post!!

and i have an idea........ if you are soooooo good and your modeling and you are sooooo pissed off because it doesnt get seen.... how about you have your own damn gallerie showing somewhere! or better!!! make your own damn website and post you own pictures on it and make a big diclamer on the from page that says: I DO NOT LIKE PEOPLE! I DO NOT LIKE POSER! I AM FULL OF SHIT!

if you hate all the poser stuff stop going to the site!!!!!!!!

i would love to see some of your 'made from scratch models' and give my opinion on it! i am going to search the galleries right now after i post this!

and who cares if you use a model made by some one else! if that person did not want you to use it or gets offended that you dont put a credit on the image then he should not be selling the model in the first place! its to make money!!!!! plain and simple!!!!! i do think you done understand the purpose of renderosity!

IT IS FOR ALL ARTISTS!!!!!! if you create from scrath, if you render,if you photograph!!

go and tell RGUS in the poser gallery he isnt and artist! go tell blackhearted he isnt an artist! go tell saintfox she isnt and artist!!!! you will get bitch slapped before you know it!

so please dude! chill out and have an ice cream or something!

"THERE ISN'T ANY MASTERPIECE OR LEGACY THAT TOOK LESS THEN A LIFE TIME TO CREATE."

so what you're saying is masterpieces are limited to one per person, if at all?

if you're a professional artist, the pint of putting your work somewhere is usually to sell it.

art is not a style of communication. it's a form or original expression. language is a form of communication, art in the form of communication is not art paradoxical i know but it isn't. even comics..the words in them are the communication. the artwork are just pictures to stimulate the imagination....art is what it is.....and what would that be. what is art? is art something only modellers do? how do you make your modells. did you design the software perhaps? did you design the computer the software runs on perhaps. did you perhaps discover electricity? or is it that you work off the backs of other peoples endeavours. we all work off the backs of others. modellers are no exception. without his subject the mona lisa would never have been painted.

da vinci copied an image and said it was his own...a bit like people in poser really. the point is, the image they create is there own image. no matter how crasse or beautiful the image is theirs. when you model a figure do you use reference material. a pic of a face perhaps. maybe an outline drawing, what was it drawn with. did you burn the would to make charcoal or perhaps was it a pencil someone else made? did you use phot references for texture? did you go straight into modelling or did you use daz or poser first and wanted something more? many that model started out with poser. as for an opinion ...thats all it is, it carries no weight enforces no belief but for the one who has it. it can be shared but even then it's nothing more than an idle thought.

if wwhat you say about plagarism is true. as a modeller you are as big a plagarist as the poser artist. you used the work of others, to learn your trade. you looked at wire frames and meshes, you copied tutorials, you used other peoples advice. you used a program someone else made to create your artwork.

i take it you have qualifications in differentiating between a hobbyist and an artist. why can't people be both? can you define what exactly art is? or is it anything that has nothing to do with poser?

i notice you say,...for me many in the poser field are hobbyists, does this mean you conced that some are indeed artists? will you , allowing that what ever you say won'y change anyingthing in the rendo world saty or go. does seeing poser pics pics offend you that badly.

billy

amen brother!!!!!!!!!!!

"THE POINT OF PUTTING YOUR WORK ANYWHERE IS FOR OTHERS TO SEE IT. ART IS A STYLE OF COMMUNICATION. WANTING TO SHARE YOUR IMAGES WITH OTHERS IS WANTING THEM TO LOOK AT THEM. ART IS WHAT IT IS, COMMUNIACTION. IF YOU ARENT WORRIED ABOUT BEING SEEN, THEN YOU ARE A HOBBYIST. BIG DIFFERENCE. FOR MANY IN THE POSER FEILD TO ME, ARE HOBBYIST"

You, my friend, are still a student. You have yet to learn that the real world pays alot more bills than the Renderosity gallery. Or, perhaps, you simply shot off your temper before actually READING my post. Let me reiterate: I show my work to folks in the "REAL" world....some of us actually live there. I truly don't think posting to the Renderosity gallery is a major career assist. On the other hand, being allowed to post at Raph, or, making the Headlines of CGTalk is a career assist, as is getting featured in a 3d mag.

As a student, you should know enough, by now to do your homework. I'm not in the Poser field. My main app is Lightwave.

I looked at your gallery. I saw alot of columns. How are you at doing organics? I'd sure like to see some of your original figures posted.

Have a great day. Take a deep breath, grasshopper, and smell the roses.

Pop...Pop...Poppi!!!

ah yes, young grasshopper, I have been an fine art student for 10 years now, I hold a degree but I continue to go because I love it. I have hundreds of life and landscape oil painting hanging in hundreds of houses. I have done thousands of storyboard sketches for Baxter Productions. Not to mention my own collection that will never go out (as long as I am still alive anyways) You may think that you can preach to me about "what is Art?" or "art is an expression not communication" well, my reply to that... yum, yeah Art is communication of an expression. Its not rocket science you know, maybe you should head back to school. To reply to Billy, yes there is some Poser work I have liked, and to reply to ruana, RGUS is one of them (for the most part). Even though I enjoy looking at there images, I still look at them and want to congradulate the one who built the model. Im not looking for little miss vickson showign some tittie, come on have any of you even used a live model. Porn is not art. I can't stand this "its all relative" shit. Damn you Eistein.

WHAT IS ART SUPPOSED TO MEAN ANYWAYS, I SAW A PLASTIC BAG FLYING AROUND IN THE WIND AND THOUGHT...WOW THATS ART; NNNOOOOOOO!!!!! THAT APPRECIATION HERES ART...

Art

Pronunciation: 'ärt
Function: noun
Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French, from Latin art-, ars -- more at ARM
1 : skill acquired by experience, study, or observation <the art of making friends>
2 a : a branch of learning: (1) : one of the humanities (2) plural : LIBERAL ARTS b archaic : LEARNING, SCHOLARSHIP
3 : an occupation requiring knowledge or skill <the art of organ building>
4 a : the conscious use of skill and creative imagination especially in the production of aesthetic objects; also : works so produced b (1) : FINE ARTS (2) : one of the fine arts (3) : a graphic art
5 a archaic : a skillful plan b : the quality or state of being artful
6 : decorative or illustrative elements in printed matter
synonyms ART, SKILL, CUNNING, ARTIFICE, CRAFT mean the faculty of executing well what one has devised. ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power <the art of choosing the right word>. SKILL stresses technical knowledge and proficiency <the skill of a glassblower>. CUNNING suggests ingenuity and subtlety in devising, inventing, or executing <a mystery plotted with great cunning>. ARTIFICE suggests technical skill especially in imitating things in nature <believed realism in film could be achieved only by artifice>. CRAFT may imply expertness in workmanship <the craft of a master goldsmith>.

PAY ATTENTION TO THIS PART;

ART, SKILL, CUNNING, ARTIFICE, CRAFT mean the faculty of executing well what one has devised. ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power.

Im not looking for little miss vickson showign some tittie, come on have any of you even used a live model.

yup, many times. I didn't even stand up for Poser. It bothers me greatly to see Posers in the Max, Lightwave, etc. galleries.

However, being a devil's advocate, here.....If you can't do organics (many folks have problems doing them) how are you going to add a person or a creature to your Max render if someone wants one?

ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power.

I paid attention to that part and still I am unsure how it applies to POSER.

ART implies a PERSONAL, (Of the first person.) UNANALYZABLE(Lacks the ability to be studied)CREATIVE POWER(The ability to create.)

POSER. Taking a Poser character. Applying, poses, clothing, props and backgrounds to create an image.

ART implies a PERSONAL,: Poser uses a set of characters NOT created by the 'ARTIST'. Poses are created by less than 10 percentage of users. With clothing, props,and backgrounds this percentage fall away even further.

UNANALYZABLE. Poser users post credits which allows a person to ANALYZE the percentage of PERSONAL input. By ANALYZING these credits the lack of PERSONAL input become obvious.

CREATIVE POWER. Coming up with a list of items to stick together may be some people's idea of CREATIVE POWER. If the list produces an image that advances the art form, or is TOTALLY original then it is CREATIVE. If it produces an image that can be catagorised with a term such as NAKED VICKY then NO.

As I have stated before I LOVE good Poser Images. It is the general abuse of the program that annoys me. My wish is more users pushed past the CUT AND PASTE stage, and tried creating some part of the image themselves.

i never asked what does art mean, i never asked for an example of art.

and art in any form doesn't have to be shown or communicated to be art. it simply has tp be an extention of someones mind brought into the real world through a physical medium whether it's good art art or bad art is irrelevant.. i personally would have said art is a manifestation of of an original thought that creates something new and affects a personal awareness that the artist or perveyor of art can't totally explain but can enjoy or dislike

i asked you what is art and you give me a dictionary definition. nothing of your own...is that plagarism i wonder? of all the definitions you copied the main one i like is unanalyzable creative power. something someone using any medium can have including poser.

hope you don't take all this crap i'm wring as personal and i admire that you defend your stance, something i seem to be doing (defending my opinion) .while everyones entitled to it it doesn't make it right. i even agree to some extent with what you say. it's the balnket statement that people who use poser aren't artissts or can't create art i find hard to accept...i suppose i don't really have to accept what you say but hey i'm human like you lol.

billy

i think the use of the word unanalyzable means that art itself like love or hate can't be scientifically analyzed, that it is more than the sum of its parts and whatever we say art is won't or can't convey what art is.

the poser artist saying whos work he used isn't analyzing but informing us of content.

what the poser artist does is a create or try to create a unique image using a well known model.

whether or not they succeed is another matter. if you do liofe studies you use a model. some artists say who the model is...whistlers mother for example, some don't, the mona lisa, though we have qn idea who she is. big tits vicky is a model and thast all. how the poser depicts her, where he depicts her, with what he depicts her in or around is all analyzable but as an art form it isn't. not with certainty at least.

billy

Okay, here is my definition of Art, and I think your definition is a good one but I also think you mix engineering with designing.

(visual) Art: A visual medium in which, created by an individual, to convey or communicate an idea or emotion through means of form overweighting fuction that will consume time, money, energy and consentration to realize. An addiction.

Leonardo DeVinci said it best... "only 10% of a painting is painted"

@Billy423uk: The artistic merits of Poser images is an issue I debate all the time. The lack of originality is the usual thrust of my argument. But the comment " ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power." was just to pretentious to leave alone.

As for you question "What is art?" I have spent too many years looking at things called ART to have an opinion. A pile of bricks with a feather on top. Tie dyed fabric hung on fishing line. A painting created with a paint ball gun. WHAT IS ART?

The little brother to that question is just as vexing. When isn't something art?

Good one with the what isn't Art.

i love that word...fuction. sometimes i see a piece of engineering as a work of art. i used to collect swords (oriental) and all had the same length blade with the same curve and hilt. some of them were works of art to me whilst others were mere replicas.many would just see two swords that looked the same but i saw two objects that different in many ways. ways i can't really describe. the bluing of the metal, the patena of age, a heavy dullness that shined brighter than new steel.

i think the artistic merits of any art can be argued against or for. i love trying to model in max. and i'm still pretty crap at it. very unartistic by my own standards. i do see lots of stuff modelled in it that others think of as art. when i look i often only see a model, sometimes a great model but is it art.

as for the what is what isn't art battle. the person who said....i know nothing about art but i know what i like summed it up best for me. i'm with you on the brick and other stuff not being art as such. often the critics tell what they think we should think art is and those kind of critics in the main probably couldn't find a piece of art with an art detector. for me art is defined with the little old lady or the small boy that looks at something that makes the heart beat faster, or something similar. more often than not i look at a picture and think this isn't art other than the reverse. again one of the reasons why art is unanalyzable is because of this very reason. one mans art is another mans garbage. even with an open mind i couldn't see a cow cut in half and placed in two formaldahyde tanks so you can walk through it as art. an experience i could agree to but art. i saw no creativity in it. i know of others who did though. i certainly saww the metaphorical value of it but i never saw the art of it. i then look at some of art and craft furniture makers of the english turn of the 20th century and see art everywhere with in it. the period after that , art nouvoe (sp) was for me loaded with artistic design and very artful. some of the simple shaker furniture for me has that purity of the simple line much good art has. so yep maybe i do see art in engineering and design as much as in a painting. and that maybe why i see some art in what poser users create. not withstanding all the garbage i see everywhere from painting to max to poser.

billy

Art is a personal thing. But back to the poser thing. Poser to me is like takign a photo. Here is my example lets say ther eis a sculptor for sake of argument lets call him Michaelangelo. He make a famous sculptor lets call it David. If you take a photo of it it is your photo of his sculpture. If you go out and buy it, it is still his sculpture it is his creation everyone knows that. So the miracle of creation is where the ownership of the thing lies. Just like that I don't claim to have written the software that I use despite buying and paying for it it is still not my creation. My creation is the models my art. With poser you are in a digital realm taking pictures of others sculptures.

I have worked with poser in teh past and I find it sort of disapointing because ther eis nto real miracle of creation. No "Its Alive" moment. that is one of the reasong I got away from it. As far as the wiscracks about peoples sex lives are concerned shows a lack of class and also shows how empty yoru arguments are by making disparaging remarks about thing you have no knowledge of.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

Has anyone ever heard the phrase art imitates life and life imitates art, or art supercedes science and science leads art. If design/engineering is supposed to be a balance between form and function. Then art deco has tilted that balance too far. Look at what it has lead to in the artistic firm. If we're talking about the evolution of art, you need to look closer at the roots of art and how that ties into your daily life. This is without mention of your car, table, couch... love seat:). A drawn picture is communication in it's purest form. Look at topography for example. Written Words are the oldest art form in existence. What have the artists been teaching us over the years? What is it that you are supposed to learn from the drawn picture or written word. The drawn picture has evolved along the written word. huh. Did you notice a shift in art, around, lets say 1945. "Einstein's space is no closer to reality than van Gogh's sky." Arthur Koesrtler. Could you imagine what Esher could do with MAX or MAYA? Maybe even van Gogh with Photoshop and Einstein with proE. These were gentlemen that could never submit to another starting their picture. The would never let someone else’s work be their focal. Poser isn't using inspiration its using someone else’s shit. I'll tell you what, if this thread offends you then maybe you should think of asking me if you can use my shit for your pictures... free advertising for me. You know who I am and you know who to see and use my work. Call it a gift. But a gift with stipulations.

Did Michealangelo forge his own chissle. No a blacksmith did, did a modeler write the program to make the digital sculpture, no. A programmer did. Hense a poser is not a modeler. They are a poser.

Look.
As technology advances, so do the tools. Poser, like it or not, is an advanced peice of software for artists to compose thier works. A time will come when modeling tools themselves will advance beyond anything we can now conceive. Who will need a modeler to create a character when a person can just be "scanned" ? Who will need a modeler when 2d drawings and paintings can just be "morphed" into the world of 3d? But, back to the point.
Why, as a modeler, would you want to talk bad about the very people that love your work enough to buy it? Say all Poser users decided to start modeling thier own props and characters. What then? What would happen to the Renderosity Marketplace? What would us modelers then do? Just do it for fun I guess.
I think you need to take a chill pill and try to appreciate someone else's art instead of bashing it for taking up all your space.
Sorry if this was random and made no sense but I am sleepy and I am tired of this thread. Can we PLEASE just let it roll down and of the screen, please? I am suprised that it has even remained open. Hats off to Teyon for his open mindedness.(is mindedness a word?)

Art deco's shift is for the easy artist. The shift lost the fact that a masterpiece takes years or a life time to create. Deco has made it possible for the average joe to spit artwork. I can't look at a pictures knowing that it was done in days or hours and have respect for that picture. I may like the way it looks but the respect isn't there. Sure the quick stuff is fun for me too, but its like taking a smoke break. I know there are artist out there that have had an idea in their head for years but never really did anything but a couple sketches, maybe a storyboard. Where are these real artist at? Show me something that at least took 3 months to create, not a couple of hours here and there for three months, but 12 - 22 hour days. All of that for one piece, not all of that for 30 works. Where are you and lets see it?

oldskoolpunk; since your tired, I will make this short. Do you have a single thread of intellect in that noggin at all. Or has this thread drained you of if. Maybe you can google it or maybe you should get more sleep.

and oldskoolpunk, there is no such thing as a 2 minute artist. just...

"depends what you mean by legacy. some only take a few minutes to create."

Thats art deco.

art deco like all styles has good and bad. to say all art thats any good ie, a masterpiece takes a life time seems condesending to many good pieces of art work. van gogh painted more pieces of art in his last few months than most did in a life time. he also changed his style after talking with monet latrec and gagahn (whos correct way of spelling eludes me. he forsook what he had learned and went down a different path. truth be known he was beyond teaching as far as the academe of art taught. as for the statue of david being photoshot. that isn't what were discussing here. we're discussing taking david and rearranging him to create something new. and some photography i would class as art but thats for another thread. art like beauty is in the eye of the beholder of course.. lol at deco being a legacey hehe. are you referring to art deco in paint or in general. some of the metal wares done by wmf is astoundingly good for me. i hate it in artwork as it depicts a falsehood of real life but in solid form i love it. some of the work done by the newlyn movement in arts and craft that shifted over to art deco is more for me that just styalized ivy, liberty did some excellent pewter designs. i think we're getting more to taste now than to is poser work art. for me much isn't but now and again i see a piece or two that is and for that purpose alone i can't in all truthfullness say poser work is worth the trouble of looking at.. and if anyon4 is tired of this thread....don't look at it. same advice for those who think the same of poser or any art form.

anyway back to the discussion. i've been on a piece for over a month and it still looks like crap lmao. i don't think real art or that elusive masterpiece takes a lifetime to create. i think some lucky bastards have it within them and carry the capability to let it out. many of the old masters did many what we refer to as masterpieces. some did so at an early age. i will conced it often takes a lifetime to get to a level where one is able to produce a so called masterpiece but again i think they're exceptions to the rule and some are naturally gifted enough to create one without the accompany of age.. thanks for the crosstalk darkskies. nice to have a good discussion whatever i think of art.

billy

Believe it or not, people can and have modelled things inside of Poser. For example, do a search for geep and you will find tutorials for building a complete house inside of Poser, using only Poser. In fact, a user called cherokee69 has built several dwellings purely using Poser after following geep's tutorials ( an example http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2147116 . Utilising the Metaballs python script for Poser ProPack and up allows metaball modelling if you so desired.

However, Poser is being pushed way past was it was originally envisioned for, which was an on-screen artist's version of a wooden mannequin for drawing reference. I would love to be able to do it all in another app, yet despite owning Lighwave, Hexagon2, ZBrush and more, I find modelling just doesn't seem to gel well for me, so I use pre-made content in Poser. If it upsets people, well, I have thick skin :)

As an aside, in your initial post you state how Renderosity has recently become flooded with Poser users. Well, as Renderosity started life as a Poser site several years ago and has slowly expanded to encompass all that's here now, what do you expect?

I for one dont know any artist who uses Poser or Daz studio or Vue or Carrara or Bryce or ...
and claims to be a 3d modeller. Most of them are not even trying to "make it " in any field, for many if not most , its a hobby.

I do model some of my own props , if I cant buy something cheaper than I can make it and I have the time , or If there is absolutely nothing that is close to what the art director or customer has specified.

I used to do a lot of advertising roughtouts, using Poser , because the boss of the company couldnt afford to wait for somebody to model from scratch a human figure , that in the end , looked remarkably like every other human figure.

I churned out about 6 roughouts a day if required. Cant do that from scratch , and I cant say I know any commercial modellers who work from scratch. Everybody I know pulls out "female mesh 01" and starts modifying.

If something is posted in an inappropriate gallery , you can PM the mods and they will move it .

No need to get your knickers in a bunch

"I for one dont know any artist who uses Poser or Daz studio or Vue or Carrara or Bryce or ...
and claims to be a 3d modeller. "

Hi, I'm a 3D Character Modeler and I use Poser to sell my models to the community. :)

and from the number of models that are poser usable i'd say say you're not alone. i would bet most of those who sell models and props in the market place for poser also model in other progs and then make em suitable for sale to poser users. something i'd like to do, not yet good enough though from some of the stuff i've seem in the market i could be kidding myself. some fantastic stuff out there i agree but some complete and utter rubbish too.

sadly i think i got into the 3d thing too late...never mind i do enjoy it and that can be good enough for me lol

billy

@Billy423uk: ...i think i got into the 3d thing too late.......

To become head animator at Pixar, or top rigger at I.L.M. you are probably a little late. The commercial side is full to bursting with young want to be's. It is a very hard field to crack.

On the other hand, if you just want to create for your own pleasure, it is never too late.

I learned 3ds max at 42. Wings and Blender at 44. Silo at 45.

As well as giving MAYA, C4D, RHINO, and VUE a go.

...too late... NEVER

It isn't what were discussing here. we're discussing taking david and rearranging him to create something new. and some photography i would class as art but thats for another thread.

That is a reasonable response the stuff about making chisels is something else entirely.

I am not saying it is not valid I feel that there as a community is a certain lack of respect for the art of modeling and things are treated as if it is their own magic make people button. I also feel as the artist pust more into their work the more it becomes his own. There is a artist that does some really cool surreal stuff in poser he does a lot of postwork adn puts a heck or a lot of effort to make it something new entirely.

There is the bulk who render a woman sans clothing with disturbingly large mammary glands and they get popular. Those who dare say there should be more to art are dismissed as needing some sort of mental help. This is sort of the rendo community thing there are pockets that are different but that is a large part of here. Of course there are other places which have vastly different communities.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

in my opinion they shouldnt be dismissed, i agree with them, i'm just saying ther's art in all walks of the 3d scene including poser. lots of crap as well but i can't dismiss the good artwork because it's mixed in with a lot of bad stuff

billy

in truth i'd like to model something that's good enough to sell. by the time that happens though i think we'll have programs that generate finished models. we already have to a certain extent with face modeller and creture creator. pretty basic as of yet but they'll get better i'm sure. the figure im doing now will prob take another 3 or 4 months to do. some the modellers i've seen could prob do it in a few weeks and have a better product lol. still i'm not jealous, just wish i'd found 3d three or four yrs ago

billy

The 3d Market is about to be flooded with experienced personnel as well as cheat programs. The artist just need to remember that there is a difference between those who model as "Artist" and those as "Fine Artist". Every tech school out there is offering these degrees now, but, fortunetly for those who have the gift, most people in those degree programs suck ass and don't have a 4th dimensional mind. I say 4th even though its work in 3D, check your theology. The market is growing faster and faster every year, the need for us is increasing, but your either the man or your working for him. We are about to see this market weed out the weak. Its time to know your shit, or get left behind.

Attached Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art_Deco

Seen a few references to Art Deco in this thread. Does nobody here know what it actually means (see link)?. It was (note `was') a design movement in (mostly) architecture and interiors (the Chrysler building is a good example), nothing to do with the `art' contributors here seem to be talking about.

Having said that, the term is misused all over Ebay to describe just about any over-ornamented piece of crap offered for sale :)

stupid me, i was referring to art nouvo and art deco came out. that said i do like some art deco.of course art deco is what you said it is. no wonder darkskies said what he did about it. weird cos i'm a retired antique and collectables dealer lmao. a lot of art decco stuff is at a premium. thanks for pulling me back to reality lol

billy

i'm just trying to model period darkskies

as a fine artist i'd be on par with a neanderthal probably not far of one as a modeller as well.

i am fairly good when it comes to creating things in 3d in the real world though. made stuff in wood and metal that could be classed as art i suppose.if i put up the wip i'm taaking a lifetime to do could you give a fair comment on it for me. not the backslapping kind lol

billy

To get good you will haveto go to somewhere else than renderosity. There is a lot I like about this site but it is not the best site for learning. You need to go whe ethere are some top artists and see what they think of your work you need to go where you will get real constructive criticism.

As far as tiem to make something I do think there are many that could benefit from spending more time on their work . But you have to finish, and I get to a point often where I feel I am polishing a turd. Indecision is one of the things that hold people back. If you get into your art go headlong into it. Have a clear vision of what you want to make. A lot of people spend a lot of time on scenes but a lot of that time is often wasted changing shaders changing the lights here and there moving object from one place to another. If you have a clear vision of what you want you will waste a lot less time on those things which can really eat up your time and make best use of your time.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

i'm putting everything into making a model. i dont worry with lights or anything else. i'll do that when i get a bit better at modeling. i enjoy the poser site but never for a minute will i assume i van learn much about modeling there. i did however find out how to do a basic texture there and the people for the main are extremely helpfull in poser and texture related stuff. i have some lynda tutorial cd and found them to be the best tuts for getting to know the basics. i scour the 3d wip forums and see some of the techniques others use.. i don't copy them but i do sometimes get ideas from them. sorry if some think that a cheat. the first 3 attempts were discarded as the turds you speak of and so will this one if i think it turd like lol at present i'm work from pics of two different people. one a side elevation and one a front elevation. once i had the side and body of the thing done i just use the front pic. at present all the planes are hidden and i'm working off a pic on another screen.

at present i doubt what ive done is good enough for any constructive feedback other than don't give up your day job lmao. as can be seen by the wip image pasted, i would love some feedback or comments. i have a thick skin so people can be honest if they have a mind to.

billy

You have some good work there. I think I need to see a wire I can see around the mouth it looks like you did something different so the loops might not be right there.(the corners look like it might be a problem.) Take a closer look at your nose the nostrils are too square and you need to flare them up and out a bit. A trick I do for the eyes that most don't I make the eyes early so I can carfully wrap the eyelids around them. It is a technique that works for me I do not see a lot of people doing that though. Teyon our mod is very good much better than me. He could give soem good pointers.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

If you look again, I was talking about Art Deco, this is the link you gave me...

Art Deco (French: Exposition Internationale des Arts Décoratifs et Industriels Modernes) was a twentieth century movement in the decorative arts, that grew to influence architecture, design, fashion and the visual arts.

And if you go read it again you will see that it didn't die out, if fact to quote again the definition you gave me it came back in the 80's, wow, about the same time computer took off... huh?

Art deco had just as much to do with the advertising of the product just as it did the products them selves. Not to mention all the wannabes like we still see today, throwing thier garbage out there. Art deco has had more of an impact on the art we see today then any other kind. It was an artistic movement that created our "modern" style. The design behind every piece of electronic technology has its roots in Art Deco. Please if you are going to be throwing definitions at me, at least read them first and try to get a few more sources before presenting it. Look again at the last two words in the definition I copied from wiki...

The visual arts are a class of art forms, including painting, sculpture, film, photography, and others, that focus on the creation of works which are primarily visual in nature.

Art deco influenced visual art and its ripple is still effecting us today.

thanks. i'm still working on it and the areas you mention are the ones i'm in the process of doing. struggling a bit with the mouth corners. in all honesty i think i used too many loops, you won't believe how many i've already removed lmao. heres a wire screenshot

billy

Billy, first I have to say, it looks awesome, but are you sure you want me to rip it apart? I can't get enough of the constructive criticism.

i was actually not talking about deco but yep it was a visual style of design i'd go further than saying its ripple is effecting us today. i think it's still a backbone for many designs of this period re visual style, some one just re classified it as post modern. it's one of the few styles that whilst being referred to as retro is actually still current. that plastic took over from bakelite hasn't changed the style that much. bauh house (sp) is still copied by many in the way they design housing and furniture.

billy

no probs in the ripping. i used to write poetry and found out it's the only real way to learn anything.

i think it's called deconstructionism heheh

billy

Billy nice topology. You have your verticies too close to each other on the corners of the mouth that is causing the pinching that I see. I think you have a great model to work with the overall flow of the polygons is great so don't ditch it. Just open up the corners of the mouth and then go at the nose. The corners of the mouth are not that sharp so open it up.

I personally think it is a good idea to start with a masculine face. Because it allows you a bit more freedom to exaggerate the features. I tend to do my characters with less realism I find those characters going for total reslism a bit odd. I like things like Shrek and the Incredibles. A bit of style over substance.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

when you say open the corners do you mean spread the vertices in from the corners to the center, i hope so cos i don't want to exaggerate the width of her mouth. will give it a try and see what it looks like thanks. like i say i'm still working on the nose lol, upto now it's had a 100 different shapes but the one i want hehe. i do have a question though....how do i get rid of the light that streams out of her snot holes lol

billy

I say that you need to move your verticies in the corners of the mout aparht on the y axis. thsi way there will be mor eof a curve tehr and no pinching. If you want I can a a paintover on the mesh pic to explain it to you.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

i get the idea thanks

billy

"Please if you are going to be throwing definitions at me, at least read them first and try to get a few more sources before presenting it."

I'm well enough acquainted with the distinct forms, motifs and overall style of Deco not to need to do that. It was a clearly identifiable style, and simply to chuck it in with anything that would be more properly classed as Modernism is to widen the definition so much as to make it useless. Billy mentioned the Bauhaus movement, and it's probably fair to say that that linked Deco to Modernism (not Post Modernism, that's a broader philosophical movement). It's also fair to say that Modernism has strongly influenced industrial design ever since, and more often than not in a debased form.

The (temporary) occurance of Deco pastiche at various more recent times since the 1930s/1940s means nothing -- having fun with retro styles is standard practice where fashion is concerned.

I only brought this up in the first place because I honestly don't understand what you mean when you say "Deco has made it possible for the average joe to spit artwork." Could you give some examples?

Even thought the "Idea" of modernism goes back to the renaissance, I will use that term and movement in the means of which you speak of. Since Art Deco is a sub-catagory of the Modernism ara we should look at the other sub-catagories. My concusion comes from the fact that Art Deco is the oldest form of Modernism (late 1800's - late 1900's), that it influenced and drove the rest like Pop Art, Cubism, Precisionism, Neo-Plasticism, and Minimalism. When I say it made it possible for the average Joe to spit art, I mean; that since the begining of Art Deco in the Modernism ara, anyone can draw a line, throw some paint, place a few squares and all of a sudden they have created a piece of art. Art deco was the beginning of the "simple" ara. If you agree that art drives society then you can't deny the fact that since the birth of art deco, society has been looking for shortcuts. If you go back and look at some of the art that spawned shortly after the beginning of Art Deco, maybe you will be able to see what it is that I am talking about, and maybe you will see why I have come to this conclusion.

Art Deco was a post-WW1 phenomenon, but in any case I'm getting around to thinking it's a red herring here.

The impression I'm getting (and you'll correct me if I'm wrong I don't doubt) is that it's non-representational, or abstract, painting and sculpture that you really mean by `modernism' (since you're going back to the late 1800s), in which case you should blame the invention and increasing use of the camera back then, because that's fundamentally what got artists away from portraits, landscapes and still-life renderings. The only thing that links, say, Mondrian and, for example, Andy Warhol is that neither of them produced representational look-through-the-window pictures.

Funnily enough though, just about ALL the bad art I've ever seen in amateur exhibitions in village halls and hanging on park railings on sunday afternoons has been highly traditional in form.

I don't agree that art drives society, I think it's the other way round. Society doesn't pay much attention to what artists do (except sometimes to point and laugh).

I don't think there's much art on this site, but there's a lot of people having fun and that's fine by me. It isn't the MOMA website and isn't meant to be.

...and I don't use Poser :oD

Just a follow up... If you want to pursue the subject and see what other members think, there is an Art Theory forum here.

Not all of us have the skills to model organic characters. But if you were to take a look at my gallery, I don't think you'd argue that I'm not an artist, and a damn good one. I do model, but I just don't do organics well.

And by the way, most poser characters are originally modeled in Max.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

There's also a problem of learning entirely new skills. One of the main problems with using Poser figures in Max is that no matter what you do, you just can't get a realistic pose for the most part. Something always looks off. You can texture a poser model quite well in Max. But the pose always looks artificial. I don't do animation, so I have no clue how to bone a character in Max. That would accomplish a far more realistic pose by using kinematics and muscle physics and all that jazz. But I'd have to take like a year away from what I'm doing now, which is damned good work, just to learn something that wouldn't be of that much benefit to me. I'll doubtless learn to bone and move sometime. Just not now.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

Bonestructure, what you do is posers real intention. You put a lot of effort into modeling rooms scenes etc. So you need to populate your scenes poser is the way todo it. My thing with poser is that most art that is only poser is usually 1 figure that they did not make in a pose. I liek yrou work a lot.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

bonestructure, Model your own, if you took all that time to model your pictures to look as good as they do, don't ruin it by useing poser. Remember this; once you model your own character it is your to use when ever and how ever you want.

And pearce, you brought it up, so take a bit of your own advise.

Not me -- I'm done with it. It just seemed like a good idea, since the topic strayed quite a way from 3D modeling, to get some input from outside this forum, maybe from the 2D members as well, and the Art Theory forum is the obvious choice. Rude, aggressive, confrontational and patronising won't play there any better than here though.

So where do we draw the line between what is from scratch and what isn't? What about programs like XFrog that generate plants? Does setting a few options and letting the computer do all the work qualify as making something from scratch or would models generated by it be considered the work of the programmer who created XFrog? What about writing your own software to generate objects? Does it still qualify if I just set up the framework and let the computer do all the work?

As a pov-ray user (who often wonders why there isn't a pov-ray forum or gallery), I have written (from scratch) several macros to automate creating and uv mapping objects like bricks, chains, cards, trees, grass, simple plants and furniture. I have used 2d paint programs as a basis for generating 3d objects like puzzle pieces. I have even used the render output of 3d raytracers to create models. Do these qualify as my work even though I never once opened any of the objects in a modeller? I don't have the skill required to model many of these by hand, but they were still my creations. I've also used plenty of Poser models right along side of some of these. Even if I had the skill to model people, I couldn't afford the several thousand dollar price tag of 3DS or Maya to rig and pose them.

Granted there are plenty of cookie cutter Poser images that don't really provoke too much thought or emotion, but if Poser is considered by some to be "cheating" (personally, I don't) then wouldn't tools like plant or cloth simulators that don't require very much modelling also be cheating?

"Does setting a few options and letting the computer do all the work qualify as making something from scratch or would models generated by it be considered the work of the programmer who created XFrog? "

Trust me, if you've ever tried using Xfrog, you'd know it's immensely more complex that setting a few options. That sucker is massively hard to use.

Talent is God's gift to you. Using it is your gift to God.

jtm and bonestructure. you ask questions that have different answers depending on who's doing the answering. my personal point of view is this...if you use a tool and create a new never before seen image then it's your creation. now you ask what and how do we difine what a tool is....again from my point of view. ... a tool is something that we use to help us do, make or create something.

is poser a tool...yes...is v3 a tool, debatable lol. i'd say the poser figures are more like stencils. as far as bonestructure is concerned. he make fantastic art with his scens and populates them with poser figures...which add to that art. no foul there then..the same with xfrog stuff. they become a tool for bonestructures art when he manipulates them into how he wants them to look and be dressed and how they interact within his scene. they become part of his creation etc etc. the problem arises when someone pts v3 in an image gives it a preset pose some preset clothes, a preset background and a few preset lights. for me this is when it stops becoming a tool and becomes a prop. on the other hand if someone take the figure and molds it to their own design adds their own images ie; background clothes light setting and postwork etc then it becomes a creation. something gleaned from a persons own imagination.

i know many will disagree with me but thats cool. i understand it's just my opinion and only worthwhile to me lol.

billy

BILLY THAT WAS VERY WELL PUT.

Bonestructure - you're right, I've never used XFrog. I do use pov-tree fairly often and have also written my own macros to create plants and trees when I needed several similar but slightly different models to populate an outdoor scene. The quality probably isn't nearly as good though, lol.

Billy & Bonestructure- I have no problem using poser figures to populate a scene & think bonestructure's work is quite good. I use them myself quite often also. If some people don't like my work because of it, that's fine - it doesn't hurt my feelings at all.

I used to be a frequent contestant in the IRTC & have seen similar debates on Pov-ray vs commercial software like 3DS & Maya. Some said 3DS images should be judged more harshly because it costs several thousand dollars, while some said Pov-ray images were worthless because it doesn't cost thousands of dollars. Personally, I would rather ignore the tools used and focus more on the image.

hi jtm.

thats what i mean about there being more than one answer.. basically i look at a pic or a mdel and i either like it or dislike. i never dislike a pic because of where or how it was made. i have an internal set of standards, likes and dislikes that allow me to judge what i like or dislike. does that make sense lol. in a nutshell i see with my own eyes. one thing i don't do is judge a pic because an app cost more or less. sometimes i may judge a pic because it's been done by a novice and like it more than one thats been done by someone with all the skills. often i can see the improvemnets a novice makes and that for me is worth more than knowing what app they used.i like reading poetry that doesn't have stock phrases and cliche and when i come across one by a novice who realizes what they are and discards their use i'm impressed. the same with 3d art. i'm more impressed withsomeone who discards the presets and takes the thing out of the box in a unique way.jmo

billy

Well I can tell you how I rig and pose. I model the figure into the pose. Grab verticies move them rotate them into position. Loop cut and paste. As long as I am nto animating I realy do nto need to rig a character. I Use Wings 3D I think ou can fidn that in your budget. Ther eis always soem thigns that we automate too much but I look at what is the focus of yrou image? Is it a model soemone else made or is itsoemthignof yrou own creation and the other things are just ther eto fill out and make i tmro eof a whole image. I knwo there are a number of differing opinions.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

I do use Wings occasionally, but I'm nowhere near good enough at it to model people. It took me ages just to figure out how to model liquid that would follow the inside of a glass container without looking too choppy, lol.

I'm still amazed by the detail in your Napolean model, btw Dann-O - nice work!

"...or is itsoemthignof yrou own creation..."

Hey Dann-O, take off the boxing gloves before you get on that keyboard :D

Yeah I am the master of Typo's. Particularly when the wife tells me to look after the baby calls me away etc. I just hit post and don't proofread.

Napoleon earned me a bit of cash too so it is not all bad. I am still nto that good at anatomy to make naked people mostly because I am not interested in making pictures of naked people. I make them in Clothes so I can't model muscle groups etc like Teyon. But I have been getting better at modeling cloth. Everyone has their streangths. My mechanical skills have nto been getting much practice.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

99 posts already!!! This forum is alive after all... Gonna make it 100; I remember opening Poser for the first time. After some frustrating hours spent in Lightwave, I remember myself saying; what the f*ck; why should I learn to model organic models (people)?, Poser has men, women, boys, girls and props ready-made for me to pose as I wish... The high I was on lasted only briefly, since I soon discovered that the meshes where very dense and they slowed down my LW-Layout (since I wave on a cheap old laptop), and adjusting the shapes prooved nearly impossible. I can live with the fact that many people create nice pics with poser, computers gave us that power, so why not use it? But for me; creating a human figure with the least amount of polys gives way more satisfaction and allows me to make "easy" adjustments wherever I like... Poser (Daz to a certain extend also) can be of great help to people who wanna get "easy" results in a "short" amount of time; give full attention to lighting and posing but not worry about modeling and texturing too much, but some of us want more "creative" input. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying people who use Poser are not creative, they create, thereby they are creative, but I guess it all comes down to how much control you want on the stuff you create.

Coming soon

at present i'm just concentrating on making the figure...the low poly count can come later when i've learned how to do something presentable lmao. for me it's just nice to know i did it all or most of it myself.

billy

Awhile back there was an issue with a particular terragen render where a person used a world file n terrain from someone else, he changed the camera's position n rendered it. He ended up with the most views or the most comments for this render along with the top20. Ppl praised him on the lighting (when he didn't do the lighting), surfaces (same thing), terrain (even tho he didn't make it).. and praised him for his "masterpiece". It ticked some of us off.
He had credited the person who created the world file n terrain, I guess a lot of ppl don't read that stuff. I couldn't do that because it would feel like it was a rip off. When it comes to Poser, I'm with Dann in that it wouldn't feel like it's my art. I never quite understood a lot of poser users, what do they think when they look at their finished render? .. "I did a great job putting this together"... when they upload their renders to renderosity they credit.. pose came from this person, character came from that person, textures, jewelry, clothing n props n lighting came from this n that person, hair came from this person. And I dunno what to comment on... nice job with the pov and hitting the render button?

divinerain

Why should we put up with the Poser community?

Why Should we accept them as artists?

..... because I am a modeler and they are my customers. I like them.

I know that with the modeling I have done, that some of you may have thought "who is he to talk, he hasn't modeled any characters". Well I have one. Its still WIP but here it is so far. If you would like to see what grounds I have to stand on when I say FUNK POSER, check it out. Tear the shit out of it and please point out any and all mistakes. If you want to see more views they are in my gallery.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1287768

You really want me to do it? (BTW I model all my characters from scratch. ) The foot needs soem definition on the trasition from the calf muscle and shin. I am fine with the oversized calves that is sort of a stylistic take. Hands need some work particularly the thumbs. they are not attached properly. To make a hand it is divided into 5 slices and then 1 slice the thumb is extruded foward first the rest of the hand is extruded together forward then the fingers are extruded individually. Looks to me you just extruded the thumb from the side of the hand. I like your torso that is actually working pretty good the arms need some work also

You need a head. I have a tutorial on getting started on a human head written for wings. I am by no means an expert. Heads are fun but a big task. Take a look over at subdivisionmodeling.com they have a lot of excellent modelers there that can help.

Just to show that I am nto just blowiing smoke I am enclosing a link with a pic of two of my human models and one of my sort of critter models. All modeling mapping texturing and rendering by Dann-O

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

i like the body darkskies

the torso and arms work for me. would like to see similar definitition on the lags and fingers.

give him some blocky kneecaps as well looks like it could be a good character.

a good six pack wouldn't go amiss either lol

and we don't need to be able to do something to have an opinion about it. cos it's a styalized figure mistakes are in the eye of the beholder. as i say looking good. i've only been doing the modeling thing about 6 months so take what i say with a grain of salt or two

billy

ps..light it up a bit so we can see it clearer for the next image you show

Here is the six pack you asked for. I started this a couple hours ago. I'm not sure when he will be done though, what do you think of it so far?

looking good. wierd but that would also make a good aliens face, the nipplesw could be it's eyes....the arms its ears...anyway....i like it a lot...keep us updated....i think the stomach muscle structure has the long muscle going into the ribcage thouh i could and probably am wrong lol

billy

Quote - Every one tries to tie this arguement into the filming industry, okay next time you see a CG Movie and those credits go screaming by, try to name 3 modelers 10 minutes later... it wont happen, however try to remember the name of the production agency or the director or producer. Chances are you will. They are the one that make it all happen. Sure they use a library of assets but those assests were created from scratch. These are guys that work in teams for those agencies, thats different, that agencies name becomes your own. One of the largest reasons for this thread was to help some of these artists, and if those targeted read this they will understand. They will get it. They are the one who will have that feeling, that "I wish I could do more", they are the one that when they show a Peice to their work to friends or family they hate the fact that they have to say... "I did it in poser". They want to make their own characters. Make your own characters, build your own library. Earn that sense of accomplishment. Dont piggy back off of someone else.

Quote -

Guess what... Not everyone has the same goals and aspirations as you. That doesn't mean that the're not worthy, and certainly shouldn't be minimized and depreciated the way you do. I mean, with what I do, I could easily find an angle to knock what you do... It would just make me look like I have a chip on my shoulder, like your knocking down of other people is making you look.

You know, I just posted in 'jobs' forum that I'm looking for someone with certain modelling skill, to hire them for a full time position, which is the whole reason I'm taling a look in the modelling forum. Looking at your attitude about other people's efforts and lack of the ability to see value in more then one point of view, I probably wouldn't get to a point of reviewing your qualifications. I would me thnking, oh my, even a toned down version of that kind of an attitude would be a pain to work with.
Oh, and we pay a lot better then the filming industry sweatshops where youngster modellers whom want an 'in' are getting to be a dime a dozen.

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Quote - bonestructure, Model your own, if you took all that time to model your pictures to look as good as they do, don't ruin it by useing poser. Remember this; once you model your own character it is your to use when ever and how ever you want.

Why don't yopu do your own mathematical modelling long hand, instead of using Maya and 3D studio to help you??? Can you explain the math and the topology that goes behind the nurbs and other surfaces you are making in the modelling programs? Lets start with the basics... Can you take an implicit linear equation and tell me the slope of the line you're modelling? Can you explain the differences between different types of nurbs? Do you know what a clothoid is? Do you know how to apply a catenary sag to a rope so if you need to use it in a model it looks very realistic? Can you model anything besides freeform characters? If you needed to build an organic model to exact specifications to be used in real life applications, could you? How ae your rapid modelling skills? Are you getting anywhere near to par of being able to make the time and the budget allocated for something? Can you handle different levels of detail and know when to apply them? .... I'm sure there are plenty of things that someone else knows, that you don't...

You're complaining about people using assistance to model characters, and you too are heavily relaying on assistance, just of a little different type. Learn to draw freehand and make claymation characters and varuious other types of sculpture, and do your own math... Oh, and build your own computer too... See the slippery slope you're on?

To take your line of thinking little farther to make the error in your thinking little more obvious here's another analogy, perhaps people whom can't build a car shouldn't be driving one. I can build a house, and you can't, so perhaps you shouldn't have the privilege of living in a house... .....eh.... :m_thumbd: quit yer whining. Here's an idea, take some time away from modelling characters, and use it to improve your own character.
[Kitty: retracting claws]

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i can't do any of that shit lol..i can't even rig the model i made and i'm getting rather pissed to say the least...and by my own violition i'm no artist. ..i acnt render worth a toss either so i don't do any...i would love to get thiss sucker i'm working on riogged in poser though

i guess life just ain't fair hehe

billy

None of that makes you 'unworthy' and whatever ese the original poster complained about, at least not in my book.

LOL, knocking other people's work down because 'someone' didn't get noticed is just not cool, and a BIG pet peeve of mine. LOL, could you tell? ;)
So... guys whom tinkerr with computers an renderings like picture of scantly clad an nekkid wimminz... well, um, welcome to life 101. Men think about sex A LOT, so sexy poser pics will get a lot of views and comments. It's, um, NORMAL. LOL The second most viewed images will be sexy wimminz in spaceships.... Such is life.

If the OP is so good at character development, he could model an all new bimbette in maya, and one-up the poser models. Like, one that has more natural looking shoulders then V3 and with an expressive face. Maybe a rigged model for 3Dmax...

Even most of the poser renderings, even though there is a lot of very fine and time consuming brushwork, if more people actually took the time to learn more about facial expressions and anatomydeliberately created an emotive face, their work just might stick out even among a myriad of finely crafted poser renders. One little example that I notice all the time is that a looot of people don't seem to realize or know (or whatever the case may be) that to make a smile look more genuine and less 'robotic' one must pose the eyes..., not just the mouth.

Also, what cracks me up is the hyper detailed faces, and hands and feet looking like a half melted wax figure... soooo, what I'm getting at, even with all the percieved 'help' poser may offer, it still takes a lot of work to come up with an outstanding image. sure, it's no 3D studio or Maya, but Poser isn't necesarily super easy to use, if you want something aside from a humanoid standing like a candlestick with arms spread eagle.

I should apologize for the outburst(s).... Too many 60+ hour work weeks in a row. I'm getting too old for this, ....need to find a younger body to put to work.

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Quote - Show me something that at least took 3 months to create, not a couple of hours here and there for three months, but 12 - 22 hour days. All of that for one piece, not all of that for 30 works. Where are you and lets see it?

Well, I got a pice that took just over 200 hours to create, and I got paid $27,000 dollars to produce. However, I consider it an illustration.
On average, I get paid to 10K-12K per model and ilustration. Some people call them art... Whatever makes them happy. I just like making them.
Oh, and that's without spending 10 years in an art school. People just started noticing my junk and paying for it. shrug

Now show me yours... bleh, bedtime....

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I was a bit more in agreement before. I now tend to hang out at other sites and I am better now. One of the things about going to a more pro site is that you have to be ready to take some serous criticism beforeI was not ready for that,now I can so it is fine by me.

One of my beefs with the overall poser community is that if you did make a perfect pic if it ws not made in poser nobody would look here. Over the years most of the top talent slowly stopped posting here. Because most people will not look in other galleries. Poser is a useful program that can be very helpful. I think it is abused for the most part but I find it can be a useful tool.

I think a lot of the community of poser users are cheating themselves out of real creativity. The fun of breathing life into your own creation. From the first rough sketches to the refining of textures. For me it brings me a lot of joy. When I just used poser I did not feel that.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

To me it all really depends on what the goal of the creator was, and what gives 'them' sense of accomplishment.
Looking at one image, 5 diferent people may see 5 different things and appreciate different aspects of it.
What I think the original poster has trouble with is that he is mixing the general value of something with his personal values, preferences and interests.
Just because something doesn't turn "me" on, doesn't mean that it is of no value at all, or that it's not of value to someone else, or that it's appropriate or even fair for me to knock it down.

Heres' one ingerent problem with an extraordinary talent and original creations (I don't know that problem is the right word, but I can't think of better at the moment). Most of your average people probably don't have the knowledge and abiolity to appreciate it. Especially if it's not associated with something that's popular and mainstream at the time.

Look at the TV media... if you want exposure to the masses, you have to cater to the 'average'.

Cheating themselves out of creativity... for you that may be the case, and for me that would be the case. For someone else, whom may have different abilities and aptitude and priorities, it may be the pinnacle of "their" creativity. And they get as much sense of accomplishment for pushing themselves, as you may get out of pushing yourself. Even if on the grand scheme of things you may have greater abilities in some aspect of your life.

I wouldn't say that the top talent left because people wouldn't look... They probably did what top talent often does, moves on to new or different challenges. Most people recognize that they don't have the power of taking a community of couple of thousand people or so and make them conform to cater to their talents. They tend to seek communities which offer them an opportunity for a challenge. If your talents are a lot greater then what the community has to offer, then one eventually outgrows it. It's not anyone's 'fault', it's the nature of things and relationships between people.

Also, who's to say that character development ability is indicator of 'real creativity? There are a lot of aspects to creativity.

I'm looking at your statement: "One of my beefs with the overall poser community is that if you did make a perfect pic if it ws not made in poser nobody would look here." ... well, you;re asking for the impossible here, you want people whom arte congregating because they have a lot of interest in Poser to switcs their interest and notice YOU, working in a medium they're not as interested in. Well, that's not going to happen. You're barking up the wrong tree for that.
It's like getting mad at the wine tasters club for not taking notice of coffee, because coffee too is a liquid... Well, it's the wine tasters club, coffee is not their thing.
Just because someone has interested in poser, it doesn't mean that they're into or able to appreciate character development.

You know, to put it very bluntly, it appears to me that some people use poser characters as a new for of 'inflatable girlfriend'. A guy like that is NOT going to take notice of your Napoleon character. Definately not in a way that will do justice to the time and effort you put into it.
Now, if you made a model which one-ups "the girl next door", and you make it from scratch etc... you're more likely to get noticed.

Your beef seems to stem from a frustration of trying to change things you have no power over changing. Recognize that and move on to the parts that suit you and your interests more.
Sure, you can continue to battle to, and eventually you may even have some impact on the currents within rendo. It's up to you where you want to spend your energy.
One thing you do need to know if you want to spend your time and energy changing the community, beefing and griping and knocking down others will NOT accomplish that. It will only get a lot of people ticked off. It's a matter of psychological games and marketing and group dynamics and group politics, not necessarily the mater of having a product that's 'better' in some way.

Sure, you put a lot of time and effort into creating something, and "they" don't care and don't appreciate it much. It's not fair on some universal balance scheme of things. Well, guess what... "Welcome to life"

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Pros post here now and then, not as often as they used too but not for the reason you think. They left the gallery area mostly because it was becoming the let's pat each other on the back even if it's total trash gallery. Honest and thoughtfull critique is what a Pro wants, they don't need to be told they're the greatest thing since sliced bread because they know this already (doesn't hurt to say it but don't let it be all you have to say). Another reason is that the gallery has been, is and will probably be flooded with images of Poser women with absurdly enlarged breasts and nothing else in the pic to look at. As most of us in this thread will say, that's not the cream of the Poser crop and in many ways it devalues both the tool, the gallery and women. A woman can be a beautiful thing to be hold in the nude or fully clothed but there's been a huge movement to posting T&A in the gallery, often with nothing more than the base nude figures in a scene and each image getting dozens of applause for how brilliant the work is. It's that sort of thing that keeps Pros from posting often here.

We (mods) know this and like Connie has said, it's a larger issue then we can tackle without upseting the community and coming off as some snooty gestapo. Afterall, this is all supposed to be fun. As it is, we get insulted, harassed and spoken badly of for any attempt we make to change the community, could you imagine what would happen if we just stated no nudes. I mean that's what it would take to get thos folks who don't want to put more effort into their images to actually either stop posting or start thinking about what it is they want their art to express beyond puberty laden carnal desire. It's also something we'd never do because we don't have the right to tell you what is art and what isn't. We can say, okay, that's too racy for our site but we'd have to do it across the board, not just for Poser. Photographers would rain hell upon us faster than you could blink.

So what's an artist, who actually cares about art and expression, to do? Simple. Keep doing what you're doing. Keep posting your work and the folks who put value in it will come to you if your work is of merit. If it's not, then you'll get less replies or less views and you'll have to practice some more. No more no less. All of this has little to do with Poser and more to do wtih the mentality and passion for art of those who visit here (or the lack of passion in some cases).

Poser isn't responsible for these kind of images. Poser just makes them easier to make. I've seen the same kind of images come out of Max. Yes, the person should be commended for attempting a human, they're tough, but they should also be willing to hear that they need to improve. That's why we post our work in the first place afterall. We're not here just to hear how swell we are, we're here to share our ideas and improve upon them. Poser is great for helping you express these ideas but if an image or an artist falls short of your expectations, your argument should not be with their tools but with the ideas the artist was attempting to express in the first place, if any. So the best way to combat the images you think are degrading the value of the gallery and driving people away is to give the posters honest critique and ways to improve their image without resorting to hateful or nasty comments.

...somewhere in all this I lost sight of where I was going. Ah well, I have your ear so....

Another thing to consider is that Poser opens doors to modelers who may not be able to break into the CG business. Through Poser you can make money doing what you love, creating models and then selling them. The Poser community is literaly starving for new content in the form of new humans and better rigged models too. Poser's setup Room doesn't provide alot of the more fancy tools you'd find in XSI or Maya for rig work but you can still setup a character in about a day after it's been made. Then you just need to test it, texture it and send it on its way.

Believe me when I say, it's the tool that keeps on giving. :)

Also, and I'm under NDA with the company so don't ask, some film studios have recently requested info on Poser for use in production. Schools request Poser as an introduction to 3D for students who would otherwise not have access to it. No, it's not the program, it's the way our community uses the program that needs to change but it's also something that's not going to happen overnight. Nor is that something we can expect one person to be able to change for the masses, it will take a community decision to start working towards a better use of the app across the board. I've said it before and I'll say it again, the best way to make a change is to start it yourself. Visit the images you hate, comment on what the artist could improve and what they did right. Help them help themselves. You may run across a few who don't care but you'll also run across a few who will truly benefit from your words.

Ignore the tool. Help the community.

wow.. I wrote all that. geesh. even I wouldn't read it. lol. That's sooooooo looooooong.

Ah, don't worry about the length... whomever has interest will have to bite the bullet and get through it. It's a complex issue, an quickies may not do it justice.

About pats on the back.....

Yeah, I noticed that. I also tried out the art theory and critique forum... well, people tried in thee, but frankly I quickly realized that even with my very sporadic art training (mostly self taught and little tutelage from some old time pros in traditional media) and what I think f as limited knowledge about color theory, composition etc I knew more then those offeing critique.

On the other hand, pat on the back can be useful too, aside from just feeling good, it does give you feedback from certain audience segment. if we are to try and make a living from our creations, we maximize our earning potential by trying to learn how to be attuned to the audience. A really skilled and talented and creative artist may be able to combine the two, creativity and catering to a particular audience. If one looks in the right place, things can be lerned from pats on the back too.

here's an idea... Whay don't some of the people whom know little more (dare I say 'us'... as I'm not sure I fit in the category of those whom actually know something) offer threads with more critique.
Not necessarily critiquing other people's work, but more as a cross between a show and tell and a tutorial. decribe he thinking process that went into a piece, describe what you think went well and us the way you wanted it, and what you wish was bette, but you had skill or time or some other liitation. When we critique our own work, the risk of alienating the friendship of the recipient of that critique is MUCH less. When people enjoy th ense of community, the risk of losing that to an ill recieved or ill offered critique becomes too high.

Critiquing someone else's work in a constructive manner takes time, energy and skill too. And it takes an individual whom won't get upset for being jumped on for critiquing. So, it's a tricky teritory.

As or poser, I used it for 'real paying work' more often then for fun. Right now I'm trying to produce a series of short instructional videos on a sport tchnique. I have a limited time and budget. Given enough time and effort, I could develop a new character... Guess what, my client doesn't want to pay for more time then it takes to grab a poser figure and animate a body motion sequence.

Caring about 'ART'... beware of self-proclaimed artists, especially those whm show lack of appreciation for other people's efforts... judging yourself is MUCH harder then judging others. If a person can't judge otr things well and objectively, it alway makes me wonder about their ability to judge themselves objectively.
I'm always very concerned about doing the best I can given the real life constraints. If some people think of itt s art, great, if they don't, great. Most of great art didn't necessarily start with 'creating great art' in mind. The art part happens due to other people's psychological reaction to what you made. Most people whom focus on technique, with reating great art in mind, end up becoming very skilled craftsmen. Not necesarily artists.

Dann-o... I was looking at your gallery, you do wonderful work. There are also a few things that I thought of as observations and food for thought, but I'm not sure if you're interested in hearing it...

Well, so much for my rambling. I was going to call it my 2c, but I think I dropped a few dollars worth of words - if you go by the word count ;) And sorry about all the typo's I get too ADD-like to look back and proofread.

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you either look in the galleries or you don't you look for art or you look for tits. you masterbate over what you see or you think ...now thats good. who gives a shit. if people want to post there art or their pics there, fair play to them. we all have the capacity to like or dislike something...it should be left at that. if we want to leave a comment fine and well. if we want our ego's stroked, again fine and well...personally i hate the pat on the back syndrome but to eacj his own same with apps.

i've spent three months creating a model i'm pleased with it...it's certainly not a great model lol. but i'm pleased with it.....it's certainly not art but i'm pleased with it. i won't have a wank over it but i'm plesed with it lol. now and again i trawl the galleries and i'm licky if i se one in 30 images that i think are good or better than not good. so what it doesn't cost me anything. the poeple posting their images seem to enjoy it. why spoil their fun.

i want to be agood modeller. i doubt i will be but i'd like to try to the best of my ability to be so. i could post my model at cg but i don't think it good enough as of yet. i tend to think that many of the modelers here netter than i at the game and so i threw it in the developers thread. i think i got one respons...sorry maybe two...for which i'm grateful. it would be nice if those that do and can model could give some kind of feedback...not the ego stroking unless it;'s genuine which i think in this particular case it was genuine. but good honest feedback that can help a newb grow.

i don't even know what i'm talking about...i just wrote this so i could ask conniekat8 if she'd pose in the nude for me while i tried to make a model of her lol

billy

Conniecat do tell me yotu observations. I am not afraid of criticism. As much as a ego stroke is good it often does not help in your ability to improve. I try the praise sandwhich idea. Tell what you do like and then the things you think can be improved. Often there are style differences and well a mature artist can recognise that too. I am not after flawless realism my inspriation is from traditional media so I tend to back off the realism a bit.

I am of a similar mind as Teyon Poser is a useful tool that is abused in many hands. My only real complaint is that most poser users do not bother to look beyond the poser galleries. Try looking at the Maya or other pro app galleries you will see some great stuff with very few views. It is a culture problem here. My cure is to also post elsewhere where it will be appreciated although it will be critiqued too. You need to be able to handle that in order to grow as an artist and also to be able to sort out stylistic differences from things that really need improving. You need to be able to see your inner vision.

I have used poser before so I know the amount of work that goes into a pic I also make my own and I know the difference. I also know where I am weaker and what I can improve for the most part. I can't do everything and those people who are really good I certainly appreciate and I tell them so. I don't like to praise mediocrity. I know the culture here is different in that real criticism is looked down on and if you offer advice to some it is seen as an attack.

Have fun enjoy what you do and don't cheat yrouself out of the real fun. Often I hear it again and again I can't model. Then you need to try. The programs are too expensive. I use wings which is free. You need to go to Gnomon or anothe rexpensive school. No there are pleanty of resources on the net to teach yourself ask questions get some advice. I'm self taught.

Start small and then go large. Measure your progress against where you were before then measure it against the community. Make friends find a mentor and later when you have some experience mentor someone else.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

Quote - i don't even know what i'm talking about...i just wrote this so i could ask conniekat8 if she'd pose in the nude for me while i tried to make a model of her lol

giggle
if I was more of a poser model material, I probably would.
but, I can save you ome time, if you just model a snowman and put lipstick on it, you'd have my basic current body shape down. :P
note to self: work less, work out more! LOL

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Hi dann-o great post.

About the chractrs, looks like you have modelling of the details down pat.
What I was noticing i that the fces of your characters seem to come from the same basic head shape. Especially when it comes tothe brow and the nose bridg area.
I think you could bring out a lot oe out of your characters if you experimented with a diferent approach, avery different head/face shape.
I'm not sure if the 'look' is the result of your modelling technique and habit, or if it was more deliberate.
there are coupl books I really like, and use a lot when I handle characters (which I've only one in hand drawing so far) are dynmic anatomy by Burne Hogarth
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=br_ss_hs/102-1874095-4730525?platform=gurupa&url=index%3Dblended&keywords=dynamic+anatomy&Go.x=12&Go.y=11
Actually I have the first 5 books on that list...
The other one is: Artists guide to facial expression, by: Gary Faigin
http://www.amazon.com/Artists-Complete-Guide-Facial-Expression/dp/0823016285/sr=8-1/qid=1159593119/ref=sr_1_1/102-1874095-4730525?ie=UTF8&s=books

they all go over the head shapes and bone structures, and the likely viewer emotional response to what they see. Us humans tnt to be wied somewhat alike in how we interpret faces. We learn it as babies. Good charactern artists are aware of it and use it to their advantage. Subtly guide us to loving or hating a character.

After getting a handle of what makes a normal face expressive, to make characters, I went and dug into a few guide books on caricatures.

I did some caricarure sculpting in polymer clays, and at first even though I would hit on some of the likeness characteristics, for a while I had mostof my characters have the same or similr 'toy story-ish' face shape. it took someeading experimenting and rustration to get past the facial mold I was getting by sticking to a technique I as familiar with. i have a long way to go still, but beore I was aware of it, I had no chnce of expanding the abilities.

Anyway, that's one thing that stuck out at me, and something I thought I could relate to.

Let me guess, by yourtechnique I'd say you had some great modelling advice and mentoring by Don Tatro? Great and very talented guy, huh?

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i wish i had a menthol..er ...i mean mentor even a snow lady shaped one. glad i gave ya a giggle lol.

personally i wanna create the human race...apparently one man is capable of such a feat but he needs 4.36 billion women and a truck load of gatorade to achive it.....na i just want to create something thats a bit more realistic than some of the poser figures out there. i'm too old to take it up as a living but i think i'd have given a few a good run for their money had i started doing it 10 or 15 yrs ago lmao. for me very little of what i se is art...for it to be my kind of art it has has to make me think or go mmmmmmmmm wow...or wtf......i can see what you say about perusing other galleries danno bit many aren't into that sort of thing and from my poetry writing days many couldn't give a toss as to if they improve or not. they're basically passing time doing something they enjoy. the learning to be better part of it doesn't even cross their mind...of course some think they're the bee's knees lol but don't we all have dreams of grandur.

i guess i would have liked a few more comments and some feedback with what i i did but it's not something i'll lose sleep over. maybe when i can do a really good model i'll throw it in cg and see what they think and hope for some constructive crit. till then i'll just try and improve on what i'm doing......whilst good crit always helps i find that i can be my own worst crit. i have a habit of tearing down what i do and giving things major edits. i think the model i finally became fairly happy with was my 4th or 5th remake......i know what faults she has but may have a missed a few...she has the ugliest feet you've ever seen lmao....and for me one of the sweetest faces. not saying the mesh is the best though..i look at some of the stuff in cg and know what quality is when i do. i'm not there yet but i will be...i have every confidence in myself i'm also delusional but thats anothe story.....

in truth all i've learned which is very little has been from tuts. i read em, i do em and i throw em away. i then try it on my own. i was so suprised at the standard i got in such a short time ...i'm not saying it's a good standard you hear but it's far better than i expected. i look at it and my ego strokes itself lmao....then i see the flaws...ego shrinks back .....then i think...you did okay ..and ego grows again all puffed up and pridefull...who gives a shit....i'm have ing fun ...as someone told me i must have...good advice i think...have fun, enjoy what you're doing, whether it's posing someything that looks like an outcast from folly bergere or whatever the second name is or a standalone work of art that inspires men to die...enjoying it or what you do is the one thing that will and does for me make it all worth while

and connie...don't try and fob me off with the snow woman rebuttle..i've made a few of those melt in my time lmao.

some nice postings folks.

billy

ps..how come danno get a mentor and idon't even get me a snowperson

the thing wit me dann o

is i fimd it hard to be a mentor about anything...i help where i can but most people know more than me when it comes to 3d. the only thing i'm fairly good at is know what i like and so thats how i give feedback...this looks right that doesn.t etc. thr trouble comes when people take whats said personally. they think they are being critted and not the object or image. i think people who really want feedback the one thing they should have is thick skin and a sense standing back from the crit and looking at what was said...i know that's two things .......so...who wants to be my mentor lol

if you teach me about three d modelling i can teach you about making a perfect white sauce.....bechemal with flour and cheese before the inuendoes run riot.

billy

Oh, and I forgot to mention yesterday, and I think it's very important to highlight... Especially after the, um, advice I offered to dann-o

Being the bookworm that I tend to be, I know a lot more theory then I'm able to put into pratice. I think that may be true for a lot of people...

Just in case someone thought or if I came across as if I really know what I'm talking about. keep in mind that I'm just another wannabe, and take what I say with a grain of salt... A BIG ONE! :)

And I hope I didn't make you feel bad... I didn't mean to, but especially with critique, I'm not sure how it comes across.... I really don't like to call it critique, it's more like, hey, looking at your images, this is what came to my mind... use it as food for thought, as you see fit.

With me when I offer critique, it's usually imeddiatly followed by a guilt trip, and wondering, doI really have aclue what it is I'm talking about, and, I hope I wasn't too harsh. It's a tricky territory.

Maybe there should be a specific critique/advice wanted gallery???

Billy, You don't have anything in your gallery???? Show me your stuff!!!

As for mentor... HA, I've been looking for someone to adopt me most of my life. I want to be someone's spoiled lap cat. LOL

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Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2664672

hi connie.

the wires are in this thread cos i was told i shouldn't comment if i don't have a gallery or any of my own stuff on display. the main images are in the developers thread. you didn't make make me feel bad..critique, comment, feedback or advice it all boils down to the same thing...one persons opion of another persons output. as long as we don't crit beyond our knowledge then we'll usually be on safe ground lmao........i'll sort out the adoption papers lol....i have a thick skin btw so no need to worry about my emotional stability hehe

billy

Hi ther esorry I am really busy now. I will just point out one thing. I live in China allthough I am nto chinese so most of my freinds are chinese etc. Take a close look and you will find that there is a definate difference in the construction of the head particularly in those areas. It is what I am used to. I do do some different stuff from time to time too. Some of my problems with head shape are artifacts left over from my box modeling approach some are well I still have room to grow.

For learnign to make heads and stuff artists I like are ones like Tony DiTerlizzi Wilhelm Busch and Rodney Matthews to name a few nto the biggest most realistic artists. Jason Clarke helped me out a lot with my head modeling technique he is a mod over at Subdivisionmodeling.com.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

Oh, no worries Dann-o :)
I'll have to check out the places and people you're talking about! Thanks for sharing that sounds interesting.
Now that you mention it... I do remember reading on your home page that you live in China. Heh, that didn't really sink in till now! Sorry!

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Conniekat8

Thats my nature... Harsh. To you, throwing numbers out there is rude. You have no idea what I am worth and you have no business knowing either. You couldn't know much at all about the paintings I have hanging around the country. How would you be able to tell that I have shown thousands of drawing at the Sundance. Just like I dont care to hear your's. You are coming off like you have been extremely sucsessfull. I don't care, success has nothing to do with art. I didn't see models in your gallery, all I saw was "Art". You, model and get paid, thats really all that matters right? I am an Artist and I too get paid. I went to your gallery and a bit looks great. Call me hard but most looks like basic PSCS. But to hear exactly what you're getting paid, that I couldn't help but think; damn, your buyers are getting ripped off.

good job.

apart from the photos i have to say, if most are basic ps i want to know the basics. personally i'd hang any of them on my wall. i see plenty of good compositionand a lot of thought in them...i like the idea behind the rubiks cube. and cat a lina. i also love some of the abstract stuff. all in all i'd say they were excellent on the whole. from the comments recieved i'd say a few others agree.

i'm not an artist but yep,....... me too,.........i get paid............actually i don't but i used to lmao....though not for art.....as for being ripped. i think the guy who bought the van gogh for 12 mill only to find out there's another five of the same exact painting all attributed by various art dealers to be genuine....now i think he did get ripped lmao. and 27 thou isn't that large an amount..........i'm an ex antique dealer and at one fair i stood (newark) i took about 75K sterling which left me with about 30K profit.that was over a three day period........mmmmmmmm i suppose i am an artist after all hehe

billy

Quote - "welcome to life 101. Men think about sex A LOT, so sexy poser pics will get a lot of views and comments. It's, um, NORMAL. LOL The second most viewed images will be sexy wimminz in spaceships.... Such is life."

Life 101 for porn stars and those who cling to them, maybe. My original statement was based off of Art 101. However, you are right and maybe renderosity turned to a porn site for those who can only make love in cyberspace. Thats cool, but thats why renderosity isn't the only gallery I show in. When I started promoting renderosity it had a weath of modelers who researched vast amounts of 3D modeling programs. Then these [edited epecially for you] F(*&!#@ posers came out and flooded it with s#!+. It is money based greed that swamped the love and passion for the life of art on this site. People thinking art and money at the same time travel farthest away from what art is. Its great when it so happens to end up that way, but for porn... shit, that money is too easy.

here's an analogy that may of may not hold water........

a news agents (shop thats selles printed media for those outside the uk) sells newspaper, periodicals, comics, etc etc......a few poeple buy art mags from him......he maybe sells twenty a month.........he sells maybe 9000 newspapers. the low end stuff with nudes on page three .....the people who buy the art mags don't say how come you're letting that riff raff in here. they just buy their mag and do what they do. the analogy eludes to 4 things.

1, you only have to buy or look at what you want to read.

2, any business will cater for the masses before catering for the minority. (it's good business practice)

3, now and again one of those who buys the low end stuff may decide he wants an art mag in order to expand his horizons.

4, there is no fourth but if he's wise the guy who buys an art mag would be wise to smile when he's amongst a throng of tit hungry newspaper purchasers cos where i come from the locals would tear him a new bottom if he complained about them...obviously that couldn't happen here but in it's own right number 4 is an anologistical thought

jmo

billy

Well compared to everyone here I am truely a lame dude. I can sketch pretty good but really don't get paid for any of my work. No works hanging in galleries etc. In fact my pictures are cobbled together with a few pieces of freeware shareware open source apps to get the look. I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on high end programs or the latest video card so if it is a challenge of who is better then I am out..

One thing to talk about your exploits but in this medium do you enter competitions and put yrou skills up against other skilled users or are you in a vacum with people who give you empty praise. I just downladed a free version of poser. Well in the future I might put it to some use but really nto in the stadard way more of a way to rig and animate if need be my own creations that are made in Wings or another modeler. I did try it out a bit but really don't like working with it that way the look of the stuff is not consistant with what I want bu tI think it is useful.

Darkskies you need to go to other sites and get your stuff out there. Renderosity is not the only site I show my work in because I think I can do more and really the site culture here is not to my liking either. A lot of people are afraid of the pro sites because they feel unworthy or they are afraid of real criticism. CG Talk is a perfect example I used to be terrified of that place. but I show my better stuff there now. I enjoy having the criticism. I think you need to go to another site and be ready to get away from renderosity a bit. Empty praise does not help one improve.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

whilst i'm not scared of good or for that matter any kind of comment i'd like to have something to put on the table before i say dinners ready lol. i'm as worthy as they come but i know what shit is when i make it....at least by my standards. when it loses some of its stink i'll hawk it around.

i come from a grounding in poetry workshops (not the namby pamby ones) and i can tell you this, if you can take what they dish out there you can take anything that can be dished out lmao.

billy

Quote - here's an analogy that may of may not hold water........

I understand the bottom dollar. I do however believe in professional ethics, morality, and resposibility. Anyone whos anyone knows that sex sells. The trick is to envock a sexual response without flashing a couple fucking in front of everyone. 10% exposure is far sexier then a 100% exposure. Who said that and why is that true?

Quote - Well compared to everyone here I am truely a lame dude. I can sketch pretty good but really don't get paid for any of my work. No works hanging in galleries etc. In fact my pictures are cobbled together with a few pieces of freeware shareware open source apps to get the look. I don't have thousands of dollars to spend on high end programs or the latest video card so if it is a challenge of who is better then I am out..

But, none of that is lame!!!
The whole reason the 'comparisons' came up, at least on my part, was in response to dark's challenge which basically boiled down to a lame 'show me your glitz and bling'. I was hoping to illustrate to Dark what a lame and inappropriate judging and comparison it was he was trying to introduce. Unfortunately, the finer points of it didn't seem to register.

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he's not lame compared to me lmao. in a 3d environment i'm a quadroplegic lmao.

the ods are if you can make something in a free or low end product you could make it in a high end one......and vice a versa......i think i've been told...how can you say anything...you don't even have a gallery......it's old hat to me....i don't need a gallery to give an opinion and not having one doesn't make my opinion less valid. i'm a 50 yr old never was who grew into never will be but i've seen more of life than many, looked first hand at great works of art from places like egypt to france i've spoke with a few. drank with keats the forger who was as good as any master. watched an artist do a sketch of someone wearing a rubber necklace (burning tyre) in south africa. i asked him why and he said casually...she's dead but art lives on. he was killed shortly afterwards by militia for showing his paintings of oppression to the public. experience is what it's all about experience of life. you can't see real pain and pleasure in a picture till you've lived it. jmo

i digress.

all i know is if you live in a glass house and throws stones, you're gonna get fuckin drenched when it rains lmao

billy

........ the finer points of it didn't seem to register......

oops, I need to clarify / make a correction here:

..didn't seem to register with Dark.

Not you Dann-o. After I read it, again, looked like I was saying it didn't register with you.

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No worries. I am just trying to keep it light. Darkskies is trying to show off his pedigree. I am just trying to show how silly it is. Billy did do a nice figure but yeah it would be nice if he posted it. Kind of gives you an idea of where someone is comming from. I am still trying to get my head around three programs and make lessons and entertain my parents who are visiting.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

Quote - No worries. I am just trying to keep it light. Darkskies is trying to show off his pedigree. I am just trying to show how silly it is.

Hehe, ain't that the truth!!! I have a hard time believeing that what he says is really the truth. It looks to me more like him becoming a hero in his own mind to make himself feel better for not getting noticed here the way he expected he would or should be.
It's been done before, and he makes almost a textbook example.

But hey, the good thing is, I started talking to you and Billy a little bit, and that's been a pleasure, and a creative stimulus.

I'm looking forward to when you have more time and show us your next piece :)

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if i posted it where dann o......if you say wher i will do with my next one....i think it's one of the reasons i'm sticking with the one prog for now. though i amrigging it in poser

you're too kind connie. the feelings mutual

billy

I think darkskies is ok bu the is at that point where people often get the journeyman level. It gets frustrating at times. You are really better than most of the riff raff but not quite good enough to hang out with the exalted ones. The riff raff don't ackowledge that you really have more skill and the exalted ones well they are better and you find them intimidating. They do not give meaningless praise but give advice and criticism.

I think it is a godo idea to stick with a program also I need to block out some time to learn my new programs. I know Wings so well I and do things in half the time so it often seems futile to me to use another program. (Mostly due to experience with the program)

I think if Darkskies gets past this part he will grow but he has to realise that well growth as an artist is often difficult and I have been in that situation before with music guitar player. I got pretty good and only wanted to play classical and jazz fusion and found all my playing partners gone and the people who I should be playing with too intimidating. I failed the test myself. Real growth is often difficult.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

Ok well lets keep with the sidetrack. Just thought I would show what I am workign on right now. A sort of Goth punk characture. Made in Wings a bryce 5 render. I uv mapped most of him and will do some textures including transmaps on the mowhawk. I have a guitar ready I have a few more tweaks on that to do. I guess I am guilty of not going for perfect realism. If I wanted more realistic it would be; but I wanted more of a characture for him. Anyways I think it is a good sidetrack. Also an example that if you do your own work you can inject soem more personality anc character into it. I think poser has its uses but I find it limiting. I have poser on my drive I woudl rather do goofy dudes like this than work in poser.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

why can't you do goofy dudes like that and put em in poser, maybe even make a few bucks at the same time, nice model

billy

My modeling meathod is nto so poser friendly. I made no body under the clothing. I woudl liek too. Ther eis nto that much money in it but there is some. I do have poser 5 I need to get to where I can rig the models in there.

The wit of a misplaced ex-patriot.
I cheated on my metaphysics exam by looking into the soul of the person next to me.

it's a lot harder than i thought, i think i have the hang of it now but i thought the same last week lmao. i managed to get 5 bones working so i'm hoping i can go the whole hog now, after that i have to learn how do joint editing. as long as you have named parts you can bone it and it'll post fully clothed.

billy

Just sticking my head in. Looks like we're actually having discussion without getting too nasty. Just try and keep it light folks. I can't believe the thread's still going.....

Sometimes. Threads like this get on my nerves. I [attempt to] use Poser. I want to learn to create 3D art. There are a lot of people, who start with Poser, as a stepping stone. I don't believe in pose packs, to be honest.

I'm constantly fighting with the hair room, rather then just loading a damn hair prop.

My copy of Hexagon sits, staring at me. And I have yet to render something, why? Because I'm looking to do more then just hit the render button. I'm shaping and contorting until I find a way to make the image really mine. Hell, I'll probably begin the disaster of exporting the model to Hex so that I can begin the disaster of attempting my own morph to get the face, the body I want. And I'm sorry, if I cannot manage to go to art school so I can call myself an artist. I went to school, and studied psychology.

And what I see by the behavior displayed by DarkSkies is problematic impulse control symptomatic of threatened self esteem. By lashing out a community that more than likely does not read this forum, he satisfies his desire for social validation by proving himself 'superior' in his own eyes, to them. Rather than transform the anger he feels, and create motivation and desire to truly distinguish himself from the Poser 'artist', he attempts to crush the feelings of those who perhaps use Poser in an attempt to gain a greater understanding of 3D. Rather than displaying empathy, and perhaps considering why others may use Poser, he relies on stereotypes of what a user of Poser is supposed to be.

By using stereotypes, he demonstrates the ability to justify the anger he feels.

See? I can sound pretentious too!

Disclaimer: The above does not constitute a complete psychological profile, nor is it intended to treat or diagnose any or lack of problems in the person listed above. Nor is it supposed to be taken seriously.

Forum: 3D Modeling

Subject: FUNK POSER