Blackhearted opened this issue on Jul 24, 2006 · 168 posts
Blackhearted posted Mon, 24 July 2006 at 5:37 PM
Foxseelady posted Mon, 24 July 2006 at 9:59 PM
Good point great visual aid for those in need of educating! ;)
DCArt posted Mon, 24 July 2006 at 10:39 PM
I agree Gabe. Anorexia is nothing to joke about. It's deadly and serious.
My first hubbie's sister had the problem. Picture a woman of 5'8" weighing 85 pounds and thinking she was still fat. Thankfully, she turned things around but only after some scary health problems surfaced.
She looked very much like the girl in the bottom right photo in the black 2-piece and boots. Very scary disease.
Acadia posted Mon, 24 July 2006 at 10:49 PM
Those images under "Anorexic" are the extreme.
Definition of Anorexia:
A psychophysiological disorder usually occurring in young women that is characterized by an abnormal fear of becoming obese, a distorted self-image, a persistent unwillingness to eat, and severe weight loss. It is often accompanied by self-induced vomiting, excessive exercise, malnutrition, amenorrhea, and other physiological changes.
I just want to point out that it's possible to be that without looking like the last images. From a medical standpoint, the second to last image would also be considered "anorexic" because the girl is far below a healthy body weight. The third to last image is borderline because she's very thin.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
dphoadley posted Mon, 24 July 2006 at 10:55 PM
Attached Link: http://www.hotshotdigital.com/WellAlwaysRemember.2/KarenCarpenter.html
It's what ultimately KILLED Karen Carpenter. David P. HoadleyDCArt posted Mon, 24 July 2006 at 10:56 PM
When you're thin to the point of having amenorrhea and other physiological changes (hormone imbalances, heart palpitations, loss of body hair, etc etc) it's pretty serious and those anorexic pictures aren't all that far off.
Lindsay and Nicole in the "skinny" pictures are very thin, but at least they have meat on their bones. As thin as they are, I wouldn't call them anorexic at all. (Though Nicole is starting too look way too thin for me to feel comfortable about).
linkdink posted Mon, 24 July 2006 at 11:02 PM
Agreed - good post.
DCArt posted Mon, 24 July 2006 at 11:05 PM
Attached Link: Some info on Anorexia
Prikshatk posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 4:54 AM
Its the rapid and dramatic changes in Ms Lohan and Ms Ritchie that ring all sorts of alarm bells.:ohmy:
regards
pk
www.planit3d.com
mickmca posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 5:50 AM
Anorexia is not a "look," although that is how it is being used when the term refers to a mesh. I would agree, from a layman's perspective, that anorexics look at if the body is consuming its own meat. That is the point at which I find female thinness disturbing (as opposed to merely uninteresting). This "self-cannibalism" is actually happening, and it's the reason that true anorexics come to look like concentration camp or famine victims.
Re: "uninteresting": Percent body fat is a gender signal, and not merely a cultural one. We are all male and female from the moment of conception, but one of the cues that a woman is "mostly female" is her softening layer of subcutaneous fat. This is what makes some female body builders look like buff dishes rather than men with mammaries. And, of course, it doesn't lend itself to meshes; hence the great market for skin shaders.
M
Blackhearted posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 7:58 AM
Quote - Its the rapid and dramatic changes in Ms Lohan and Ms Ritchie that ring all sorts of alarm bells.:ohmy:
i just used them as examples, i scoured google for some quick examples of body types.. ie: dont evaluate their history, just how they look at the moment :)
someone can easily be that thin and not be anorexic. just as someone can look like the voluptuous examples and be anorexic -- but they wont look like that for long.
anorexia is not a 'look', but many people bandy the word about based on the look of 3D characters (since thats all you have to evaluate them on -- they have no 'history', 'habits' or 'personality'). ive seen many comments in the galleries and forums calling something 'way too skinny', 'anorexic', etc.
i have not seen a single morph made for poser that i would call anorexic (except perhaps the V3 'emaciated' morph that noone uses). yet when i released my irina morph a clique of people trolled my gallery and told me in IMs that i urgently needed to change this disgustingly anorexic morph. if someone thinks irina is anorexic they have problems -- she would be somewhere between the toned and muscular examples above.
there are also many people saying 'where are the average morphs?'. 'i want an average woman morph thats a size 14', etc. 'why do all of these morphs look like movie stars? i want a more plain looking one'.
theres nothing wrong with that, but i will explain why i, personally, havent made any yet:
poser and 3D - to the majority of people - is a hobby, for creating fantasy images.
classic fantasy art, pin-up, sci-fi, glamour, etc.
would you go into a poster shop, for example, and complain that all of the people in the posters look like salma hayek, vin diesel, kelly brook, etc. that they should stock an equal number of roseanne barr and john candy posters?
like it or not, it is an indisputable fact that at this time a morph that looks like jessica alba will sell better than one of kirsty allie. so you can hardly fault poster shops for stocking jessica alba posters, magazines for putting her on their covers, or merchants for creating characters that look like her.
its perfectly fine to ask character creators to make different body styles, but realise that if its not already in the MP by now then you are probably asking for a niche item. most merchants are trying to reach the largest possible market with their products and therefore you cannot blame them for not making what you want.
newer merchants who are working on getting established, however, might stop to consider that they may do better creating a niche item that reaches an untapped 10% of the market as opposed to adding yet another caucasian V3 to the thousands already available.
cheers,
-gabriel
Khai posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 8:12 AM
the only complaint I have is.. your top pictures are actually Normal women.. Voluputous are bigger ladies ;)
Blackhearted posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 8:17 AM
just thought of another example...
look at boris vallejo. both him and his wife are into bodybuilding, he hangs out with bodybuilders, and its glaringly obvious that he prefers women of (mainly) the muscular type.
you wouldnt phone him up and rant to him about how it upsets you that the women in his paintings are disgustingly overmuscled, and that he should paint softer types.
just leave the guy alone and let him make what makes him happy, and dont buy his prints if you dont like them. if there isnt enough interest in his work, then either he will change his style to a more marketable one or get another job.
so to clarify, i have absolutely no problem with 'requests' or polite persuasion to make something.
but i am fed up, as i am sure many other merchants are, of being ranted at, badgered and told that my morphs are anorexic or too skinny because they dont fit someone else's ideal.
Khai posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 8:20 AM
I'm sorry.. I came here for eductation in female body types.. I did;nt know this was a rant. I'll just leave...
Blackhearted posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 8:33 AM
Quote - the only complaint I have is.. your top pictures are actually Normal women.. Voluputous are bigger ladies ;)
wouldnt that be 'full figured'? :)
as much as i cant stand her as a human being, i can think of no other word to describe anna nicole smith than 'voluptuous'. IMO theres no way on earth she is 'average' or 'normal'. when i was google searching for examples of voluptuous, she was the first thought that popped into mind.
there are so many terms covering the weight spectrum these days though, i could be confused.
voluptuous, full figured, plus-sized, BBW, the list goes on...
on a side note, calling someone 'overweight' isnt politically correct anymore...
apparently though, calling anyone under a size 8 'skinny' and under size 5 'anorexic' is perfectly fine. times like this, i thank jebus i am not a woman. youre damned if you do, and damned if you dont.
Blackhearted posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 8:36 AM
Quote - I'm sorry.. I came here for eductation in female body types.. I did;nt know this was a rant. I'll just leave...
lol.. touchy :biggrin:
i hadnt even seen your post when i was typing that reply -- "i just thought of another example".
noone (aside from myself perhaps) is ranting here, and this is actually a civil thread. i am referring to the countless other threads, remarks, IMs, gallery pic protests, etc over the years.
my response to your post is the next one (one above this) :)
3-DArena posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 9:44 AM
Sorry, I think your examples of Skinny are indeed anorexic. I was a skinny skinny girl, 6', 115 lbs with doctors always giving me shakes and such to put on weight. I had a healty appetite and ate "vigorously" yet even with their concern and the protein shakes I was never that "skinny". I was more your "thin" example and if I'd been "skinny" back then I wouldn't have had any modelling contracts - angular bones were not cionsidered attractive back then and they are not a sign of healthy now.
My nieces both suffered eating disorders, Twins - one was bulimic the other anorexic they never got to the point of the bottom images but they certainly got to the "skinny" section and they were thin to start with.
Your examples of "skinny" have heads bigger than their bodies - that's anorexic it just hasn't gotten as extreme as it can. Just because one still has "meat on their bones" doesn't mean they aren't anorexic, it takes a while for the body to eat itself like the bottom pictures.
Yes a woman can be a small size - Ashley Judd is what a size 6? and looks healthy. It's all about the angles and the bone protusion.
As for normal - what is that? Your Voluptous examples - and I'm currently built like the brunette -( all those protein shakes LOL) was the ideal 50- 60 years ago and I think it's pretty norm now.
As for Anna Nicole she goes back and forth between voluptous and full figured.
Musclebound is freaky - you lose all your breast tissue when you get that big, I'd personally rather keep my curves than have fake ones added in. heh
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I do not feel obliged to believe that the same
God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has
intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo
DCArt posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 10:03 AM
Attached Link: Nicole losing weight
I found this image of Nicole Ritchie that shows her weight loss over the months.Personally, I think she should have stopped in December 2004. The difference over the next year is not an improvement.
Blackhearted posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 10:14 AM
skinny is in there by no means as an 'ideal'...
calling someone skinny is insulting. just like calling someone 'overweight' is to some.
skinny implies unhealthy. IMO thin implies the lowest end of the healthy weight spectrum and isnt an insult... at least in my experience. if i said to a woman 'my god, you are so skinny' - i dont think shed take it as a compliment, whereas 'wow, you are very thin' would probably be regarded as one, or at least much less likely to be taken as an insult.
but being skinny doesnt necessarily mean you are anorexic. i know many people who are thin as rakes and they arent anorexic at all. hell, when i was in highschool i was 6'1" and 140 lbs.. although i ate like a locust and swam competitively - i wasnt unhealthy or anorexic, just has a very fast metabolism. i was consistently eating over 3800-4000 calories a day, which was almost double what i needed to maintain a 'normal' weight of 175-180 lbs, yet i wouldnt gain an ounce. i was just as insulted when someone called me 'skinny' as someone who is obese would be if they were called 'fat' -- yet now even 'overweight' is politically incorrect, yet people see no problem with calling people skinny... not to mention that ive seen many people call anyone under a size 8 'skinny' and under a size 5-6 'anorexic'.
thankfully my metabolism has slowed down in my late 20s so i dont have to eat 6 meals a day anymore.
and yeah, while i find the muscular women in the examples above quite attractive, the musclebound ones repulse me (no offense to anyone who looks like that, im sure its a huge commitment). i guess it just goes to show that you can definitely take things too far -- and that goes for trying to stay unreasonably thin too.
Letterworks posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 10:17 AM
Well, all arguing aside, I think the effort to codify body types is a good thing. Each person is going to have an opinion on exactly where the line is drawn between skinny and anorexic, but I notice that not many are arguing to include the thin catagory under the anorexic label, so I think we have a start in the right direction.
mike
Blackhearted posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 10:22 AM
Quote - I found this image of Nicole Ritchie that shows her weight loss over the months.
Personally, I think she should have stopped in December 2004. The difference over the next year is not an improvement.
honestly, i prefer her in the first picture.
although the dec 2004 pic is more of a 'societal ideal', the first weight 'suits' her much better. as she loses more weight her head gets bigger and bigger... her eyes start to bug and look huge. she looks like an alien now, and is definitely at an unhealthy and unattractive weight.
i was never a nicole ritchie fan -- i passionately loathe both her and paris hilton -- but look at how much prettier her face looks in the first image.
shudder i cant believe i just said that.
DCArt posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 10:26 AM
I'm more in tune with the second one ... she is too thin for my liking in the third, but only gets worse in the last two.
Truthfully, in the third one she looks an awful lot like Paris Hilton, who has an entirely different body structure than her and is naturally very thin.
Keith posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 11:59 AM
You can't just make the generic judgement. You have to take the individual into account.
For instance, consider Amy Acker (Fred on "Angel"). She's about the same height as Charisma Carpenter (Cordelia). Acker, you can tell, is naturally thin. But if Carpenter was down to that same weight, you'd be justified in wondering if she had a problem.
Dave-So posted Tue, 25 July 2006 at 7:01 PM
give me nicole #1 anyday. My wife is more like the top group of women...
Humankind has not
woven the web of life. We are but one thread within it.
Whatever we do to the web, we do to ourselves. All things are bound
together.
All things connect......Chief Seattle,
1854
MikeJ posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 2:21 AM
Blackhearted,
If all the complaints, negative feedback, bitching, moaning...whatever - irritates you why not just ignore it rather than always get into an even more frustrating ordeal like trying to convince everyone that you're right, no matter what anyone thinks?
For as long as you've been around I would think you'd have noticed by now that much of the time arguing around here is pretty much pointless, and it's pretty rare that anything gets resolved to the satisfaction of he who wishes to make some kind of point.
Ariah posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 4:00 AM
Great work, Blackhearted!
I'm myself the thin/ skinny type, though i eat like a horse and don't exercise, I drive a car and don't do long walks... I'm 1.7 m, 53 kilos - that's about 5.58" and 117 lbs to all non-European out there.
I'm sick and tired of all the people asking me if I'm anorectic or bullimic or God-knows-what. They all shut up seeing me eating a box of ice-cream and NOT vomiting afterwards.
One can be a normal, quite healthy female non-model with the slim figure.
Another reason why there are no full-figured characters at thye Mp is that there's no clothing for them available and virtually no support.
KarenJ posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 4:49 AM
I need to point out for non-Americans that English dress sizes are about 2-4 sizes smaller than their American counterparts. Hence some references to dress sizes may sound confusing.
I'd never heard of Nicole Ritchie until a couple of weeks ago when I saw her on a programme about "The too-skinny celebs who are dieting themselves to death" or somesuch. (I don't normally watch crap like that but I was ill...)
"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan
Shire
mickmca posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 5:02 AM
Ironically, in spite of the current trend of world hunger, the best place to see healthy, "normal" bodies is those once-controversial National Geographics. Universal obesity and self-imposed starvation are among the many wonders of civilization. Americans have been snatching food from the mouths of starving Third World children for generations. In the real world, where those children live, getting fat is a luxury that only is "rewarded" if you have status. And nobody but a lunatic would choose to be skinny for aesthetic/vanity reasons.
Our weight psychosis is caused by the double bind that millions of years of culture and contemporary values represent. On the one hand, prosperity means obesity, so we eat like pigs to show that we are the leaders of the economic world. On the other, trimness means healthiness and self-esteem (they don't in the real world), so we puke up the hummingbird breasts and mouse livers in saffron. Among the wealthy worthless, like Paris Hilton, the behavior at least has the value of being an evolutionary strategy. For the rest of us, it's just another sad self-imposed cultural pollution.
M
vince3 posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 5:09 AM
i have found that when a pretty lady walks past me, i can lose about 2 stone, just by breathing in, and thus she remains unawares of my "world cup England supporting beer belly"
Blackhearted posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 8:55 AM
mikej -- despite what you may think, i dont see anyone 'arguing' here... more of an interesting yet polite debate.
mickmca -- thats pretty deep :)
i disagree on the point that "trimness means healthiness and self-esteem (they don't in the real world)".
but the root of that disagreement is centred on exactly what you mean by 'trimness'. change that to 'being dangerously underweight' or something and i agree with much of what you said.
Quote - I need to point out for non-Americans that English dress sizes are about 2-4 sizes smaller than their American counterparts. Hence some references to dress sizes may sound confusing.
erm.. so whats a size 0 in britain? a size -3? :)
DCArt posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:01 AM
i have found that when a pretty lady walks past me, i can lose about 2 stone, just by breathing in, and thus she remains unawares of my "world cup England supporting beer belly"
ROFLMAO!
Turtle posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:27 AM
This is a very interesting Post. When I was young I had a body like Iria. (Ballet Dancer) I used to get so pissed at my big hooters. They just don't work doing Swan Lake. I would bind them , so they wouldn't stick out so far.
Now I'm 63 I'm more voluptuous, but with everything going south. :O) (at a fast rate)
Hugs to you Gabe.
Love is Grandchildren.
vince3 posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:32 AM
Turtle if you were to move to Australia i think this might counter-act what you are experiencing, as they would then be forced to head north. but caution is advised as you could end up with hooters up by your ears.
Ariah posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:53 AM
Funny with the English dress sizes: when I was in London I couldn't find a size 8 anywhere and size 10 was too large for me;)
On 'starving to death' topic: The problem is that the TV/ cinematic cameras (though they differ substantially) actually make the person larger. Thus the actreses starve themselves to look not only skinny but actually bone+skin, as on the cinematic screen they look 'just right'.
Try comparing a regular picture of an actress and her cinematic self - she does look bigger in the cinema.
The optics of the cameras work like that.
vince3 posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 10:13 AM
so what you are saying is that if the aforementioned pretty lady that is looking at me wears glasses( an optical device) despite my breathing in and appearing thin technique, it is a waste of time because she will still see me as overweight!! so what you are really saying is that i should drink more beer, because i will always appear to be some kind of chubster to glasses-wearing pretty ladies?
Ariah posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 10:59 AM
Quote - so what you are saying is that if the aforementioned pretty lady that is looking at me wears glasses( an optical device) despite my breathing in and appearing thin technique, it is a waste of time because she will still see me as overweight!! so what you are really saying is that i should drink more beer, because i will always appear to be some kind of chubster to glasses-wearing pretty ladies?
:)
Yup.
But seriously: my best friend, who is a slim lady (wears size 10) and is generally attractive likes men with meat on their bones. A beer belly is not a drawback.
And true, glasses -- especially the minus ones -- distort the view. But worry not, those who wear glasses know about that trick and their mind processes the optical information;) I know, I wear glasses (-6.5). Well, not all the time, as I usually wear contact lenses... Oh, nevermind.
Bobasaur posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 3:23 PM
"Americans have been snatching food from the mouths of starving Third World children" I've never even been to the third world.
Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/
Miss Nancy posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 3:33 PM
well, it may be true that thousands of africans are dying of starvation every day, but I dunno if we can assign blame. we would be doing more to solve the problem, but events in the mid-east and east asia have overshadowed that, for the time being.
KarenJ posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 3:40 PM
Gabe:
"erm.. so whats a size 0 in britain? a size -3? :)"
I have never seen a size 0 in the UK. Actually I've never seen anything less than a size 6 here (and that's only in those posh shops where if you're more than a size 12, they look at you as if you're a whale and watch you like a hawk in case your fat cells jump onto them and cause them to gain half an ounce on their left eyelash.) Most shops don't sell anything below an 8. Even the online Petite specialists generally don't go below 6 (well, I couldn't find any.) Some places are apparently looking to stock size 4s, but they are generally aimed at children and genuinely petite women (i.e. under 5 feet tall) rather than skinny tall women.
Interesting article about it here:
http://www.fuk.co.uk/news/ever_decreasing_sizes
"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan
Shire
dphoadley posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 3:41 PM
"thousands of africans are dying of starvation every day,"
I may be wrong, but most of them are dying because of the stupidity and rapaciousness of their own governments.
The Rabbis taught that Charity should start with one's immediate family, then with ones neighborhood, and then with ones city. Only after all that, and if one still has the where withal, should one concern oneself with the denizens of a far off land.
DPH
grylin posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 4:14 PM
i'm reading the topic, and i gotta say, in this society thin is in in the movie/fashion business. sad really. even i, at 27, is affected by it... as im sure a lot of young women are.. trying to be perfect in every way . i myself am a size 12 (u.k.) 16 (u.s.)71 kg's. is that thin? or fat+ i sometimes think im too fat and i m too shy sometimes etc to leave my house, cus i feel that the skinny girls in their short skirts and bikinis are staring at me. etc.... and how i wish that thin was out!:P like nicole ritchie ,she could put on her *former * weight on again and even Paris, and all the famous young hollywood women, then id feel alot better about MY looks!:D but would i ever diet to be a size very teeny not ever!
plus, when i make renders in poser etc. i dont use the thin* morphs, alltho i notice sometimes i try to make my figures perfect:P *
runs off to make sum voluptuous poser women byee:D
dphoadley posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 4:32 PM
I prefer my women to be plump. I remember that my wife was never as exciting as when she was pregnant.
DPH
Mock posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 6:40 PM
“current trend of world hunger,”
What trend?
“Americans have been snatching food from the mouths of starving Third World children for generations”
What??? Last time I checked food was one of the last things the US still produces it’s self.
“double bind that millions of years of culture and contemporary values represent”
Millions of years????? What culture would that be?
“we eat like pigs to show that we are the leaders of the economic world”
No actually we are obese because we eat junk food, we eat junk food because it’s fast, cheep, easy to come by, and tasty.
Ok I’m getting off this one now I just couldn’t let those pass
Agreed anorexia is not a look the proper term would be emaciated but Blackhearted’s morphs are hardly that I’d term them athletic/tone.
As far as the top two I’d agree with them being voluptuous soft, curvy, and very little if any muscle tone, you could likely add two more levels up from that but you’d likely offend somebody if you didn’t name them well.
Darboshanski posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 7:04 PM
As long as society equates “thin” with sexy, successful and that the “thin” are the only ones worthy of life, then the number of eating disorders with continue to grow at an alarming rate. We live in a society that if one does not fit into the glamorous fantasy world of Hollywood they are shunned. It is as if they had a hump on their back and lived in a bell tower or should be burned at the stake. More and more people are being treated terribly because they don’t look a certain way. Women are bombarded daily with images and content on how they are “suppose” to look. It seems that every time a woman picks up a “Glam” magazine her self worth drops 50 points or more. She is reminded by a shallow society that because she doesn’t look like a “star” or what society deems as beautiful she should hide herself away or need not live.
Quote- “Americans have been snatching food from the mouths of starving Third World children for generations.” I have had the misfortune to have been in third world countries where there was mass starvation. I was sent there to protect the food from the warlords or governments of these countries who would have hoarded it all for themselves or sold it to the highest bidder. Here in the U.S. there are thousands of children that face hunger each day. Maybe the UN needs to get involved with that ‘cause it sure doesn’t look like our own politicians give a shit.
Cheers,
Micheál
Acadia posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:09 PM
Quote - Some places are apparently looking to stock size 4s, but they are generally aimed at children and genuinely petite women (i.e. under 5 feet tall) rather than skinny tall women
Back when I was a teenager of 14 to 17 I ate my way to almost 200 pounds! I decided that I was going to fit into a size 12 gown for my graduation come hell or high water! I went on a low carbohydrate diet (not NO carbohydrate as those are deadly and I sure wasn't going to starve myself.! I'm part Ukrainian and love food too much, LOL). I also went roller skating almost every day and worked out on a weight gym at school for an hour or two daily, with the coaching of the gym teacher.
I managed to lose 70 pounds in 4 months and managed to get into my gown...just! I went on to lose another 12 pounds to get down to 118 pounds and into a size 4 or 6 dress. I thought I looked good back then and I had no lack of compliments on my weight loss and appearance.
However, I look back at pictures of me at 118 or even 125 pounds and I look more pale than I normally am and to me I look sickly. I don't even recognize myself in some pictures. Of course burning the candle at both ends while working full time and going to high school full time and partying in between and fitting in 2 or 3 hours of sleep in might have been a factor to the ghostly/worn out appearance.
But while I didn't have bones jutting out and was quite toned I was also thin and under my ideal weight for my height.
I'm 5 feet 7 inches and the ideal body weight for my height is 140 pounds.
We all have our own ideals about what we see in the mirror when we look into it and that influences us as to how we see others.
It's evident that BH prefers ultra thin women and therefore makes his morphs to reflect that. To him they don't look skinny or anorexic, because that's the figure type that he prefers on a woman.
While I don't particularly care for the female body types that he depicts in most of his morphs because I find them too thin, I don't begrudge him the right to make whatever figure shapes he wants; after all it's his craft and his store. While to him they are "ideal", to me they aren't because I feel the normal average woman is more akin to the top image of his image set.
Those that don't like the the shape of his morphs should just move on and spend their money on morphs that fit their own ideals on what a normal, healthy woman's body looks like.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
Acadia posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:11 PM
Quote - As long as society equates “thin” with sexy, successful and that the “thin” are the only ones worthy of life, then the number of eating disorders with continue to grow at an alarming rate. We live in a society that if one does not fit into the glamorous fantasy world of Hollywood they are shunned. It is as if they had a hump on their back and lived in a bell tower or should be burned at the stake. More and more people are being treated terribly because they don’t look a certain way. Women are bombarded daily with images and content on how they are “suppose” to look. It seems that every time a woman picks up a “Glam” magazine her self worth drops 50 points or more. She is reminded by a shallow society that because she doesn’t look like a “star” or what society deems as beautiful she should hide herself away or need not live.
Very well said :)
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
nakamuram posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:25 PM
It's not wrong to be thin, nor is it wrong to find thin women attractive. It is wrong to try to live up to other people's standards and expectations, whether those standards and expectations are realistic or not. Anorexics are their own victims, not society's. I don't think emaciation is something anyone considers beautiful.
There's another eating disorder called obesity, that's far more prevalent than anorexia. I would be willing to bet that obesity kills more people and causes more health problems than anorexia. Yet, no one finds death from obesity-related causes to be tragic.
Bottom line -- we need to learn to be happy with ourselves and learn to live with our limitations. I don't think it's our "standards of beauty" that are causing these eating disorders.
DarkStarRising posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:41 PM
Well im proud to say im a british size 24!!!
dunno what that it is in the US must find out as im living here LOL
i LOVE the first images, the voluptuous ladies are gorgous, yones arent to bad either, but the rest NO NO!
but BH you have forgot the people above the voluptuous, i know you said, you dont want to get your head bitten off, but i think they should be shown.
im not FAT nor OBESE im just a lill podgy, im tall too, whichkinda counteracts the other out 6 foot 1inch so for a lass thats pretty tall, i like to see women that are voluptuous/curvy/buxom because to me that is how a woman SHOULD look!
In the words of DarkStarRising:
"Sadness within sadness,
Darkness within darkness,
a shadow of a form lays upon the floor,
looking at herself
looking at her own shadows of loneliness"
Keith posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:43 PM
She is reminded by a shallow society that because she doesn’t look like a “star” or what society deems as beautiful she should hide herself away or need not live.
Yeah, okay. Exaggerate much?
Perhaps you should take a closer look at what's actually out there being considered "attractive" before stating sweeping generalizations.
Walk down to a store with a wide selection of magazines and take a gander at the ones using images of women in an obvious manner to attract male readers. All manner of races and, these days, all manner of body shapes. Sure, there's you trim, big-busted Playboy version, but there's also the athletic/muscular ones, the voluptuous ones, the thin ones, the curvy ones, so on and so forth.
If you only look at the magazines focusing on a single demographic then sure, all the women look the same. Look beyond the same demographic.
Hawkfyr posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 9:58 PM
I agree Keith.
I don't understand the "Society makes me feel bad about myself" claims.
I mean...if what one sees in a magazine or a movie becomes the measuring stick of ones self worth,that I'd wager that a few extra pounds would be the least of ones problems.
It the same with men when it comes to money,and when the total of his bank account is the measuring stick of his self worth.
I just don't get how someone can let someone else's opinions,govern their self image to the point of hiding away.
Who is really the Shallow one in this scenario?
Tom
“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”
drifterlee posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 10:14 PM
The last pics are scary. Poor girls!
nakamuram posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 11:07 PM
Quote - The last pics are scary. Poor girls!
And no one thinks they're beautiful. There's a lot more to anorexia than beauty and appearance, otherwise it could be cured by showing anorexics pictures of themselves next to pictures of "beautiful people."
On the other hand, I would bet that "thin is in" keeps a lot of people healthily weight conscious..
Acadia posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 11:17 PM
Quote -
I don't understand the "Society makes me feel bad about myself" claims.
Oh you would if you were an average size or God forbid above average in size woman going shopping looking for a cute outfit and all the really cute outfits are for size 6 and the ones in your size are unflattering and made out of the ugliest material etc. Whoever thought that large women look good in large bold prints has rocks in their head.
Or going to a sale only to find that all that is left on the racks are for size 6. Ever wonder why the size 14 and up are snapped up first? Because that's what most women are, yet skinny girls barely out of puberty made up to look 20 something are shoved in our faces on a daily basis in magazines and TV and movies etc.
Men for some reason don't seem to have a stereotypical norm to try and fit into. Their hair goes gray and they are "distinguished".
How many hair colour commercials are on during an hour long tv show? It seems like every other one. Who are they geared to? Women! If a woman doesn't colour her hair to hide the gray she's "old". Plus take a look at who does the commercials? You won't find an ugly or fat woman doing them because that's "not appealing" and won't sell their product. The women are Hollywood celebrities or models.
The ad execs use beautiful and thin women because it gives the illusion that we too will look like that and have sex appeal etc if we use their product. It's ad gimmics and unfortunately they work, but they also set the standard by which the rest of us have to live with on a daily basis.
Fat, old, tall, short...it doesn't seem to matter for a man. Tabloids are constantly keeping an eye on the women of Hollywood and when most men put on 10 pounds there is barely a blip on the Tabloid radar. However a woman puts on 5 pounds and it's splashed everywhere.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
nakamuram posted Wed, 26 July 2006 at 11:49 PM
You're letting "them" get to you, Acadia. Not good... Just ignore those "messages" and don't read anything in to them.
Coleman posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 12:16 AM
To me Blackhearted's 'Girl Next Door' and 'Irina' both look 'athletic' to me according to the above chart.
I think we left out 'Pornstar' body type though :)
I'd like to see a similar chart done for men - ha ha
Acadia posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 12:24 AM
Quote - You're letting "them" get to you, Acadia.
No I'm not. If I were I'd be colouring my hair and twig thin.
I consider myself "average", and I know many "average" women, and I can assure you that we all have bouts of low self esteem at times because of the pressure exerted by "society "on women to conform to a certain "ideal". Unfortunately there are some women who are willing to jump through hoops in order to conform, regardless of what it does it does to them physically or mentally or emotionally.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
nakamuram posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 12:30 AM
Well then think of those images of "thin" women as motivation to stay fit, rather than pressure to conform. I wish my wife would do that.
Acadia posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 12:38 AM
Quote - Well then think of those images of "thin" women as motivation to stay fit, rather than pressure to conform.
Why would I want to do that when I consider them unhealthily underweight? The nicest images shown at the top of this thread are the "voluptuous" women which many consider "full figured" or "plus sized" and some might even call them "fat", which isn't the case at all. They are simply typical, average, normal sized women.
And that is the entire problem right there. To be average/normal and at a healthy body weight is deemed unacceptable in the eyes of society and clothing designers.
You may not realize it but you also fall into that "society" catagory with that statement of "think of those images of "thin" women as motivation to stay fit." That implies that to you anything but "thin" is not fit.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
nakamuram posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 1:35 AM
But are they really unhealthily under weight? Or do they just make you feel bad? And since when does average mean "correct"?
Acadia posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 2:07 AM
Quote - But are they really unhealthily under weight? Or do they just make you feel bad? And since when does average mean "correct"?
And that brings us full circle to what I said in an earlier post:
Quote -
While I don't particularly care for the female body types that he depicts in most of his morphs because I find them too thin, I don't begrudge him the right to make whatever figure shapes he wants; after all it's his craft and his store. While to him they are "ideal", to me they aren't because I feel the normal average woman is more akin to the top image of his image set.Those that don't like the the shape of his morphs should just move on and spend their money on morphs that fit their own ideals on what a normal, healthy woman's body looks like
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
Conniekat8 posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 2:08 AM
What's really unhealthy is that there's so many nekkid women pics around here and not nearly as many good looking nekkid men.
Bautiful art of the women you guys, incredible art, but for fantasy art...
I just don't fantasize about women. sniffle I feel so neglected and under-represented. How about Chippendales or a cabana-boy version of Michael?
[kitty: ducking, running and giggling ------------------------->] :tongue2:
Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz
yurs?
BadKittehCo
Store BadKittehCo Freebies
and product support
RGUS posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 2:13 AM
Shit I love your girls Gabriel, if people don't want to render them, then great... no arguement, they won't buy them... but for us that love 'em... carry on man... awesome, awesome product... spoken as a true fantasy Poser renderer...oh ahng on... did I say fantasty... is Poser suppose to be real life... hell I better change the way I render...LOL... Top products Gabriel... LOVE 'EM!!!! and I have them all!
3-DArena posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 9:05 AM
Quote - As long as society equates “thin” with sexy, successful and that the “thin” are the only ones worthy of life, then the number of eating disorders with continue to grow at an alarming rate. We live in a society that if one does not fit into the glamorous fantasy world of Hollywood they are shunned. It is as if they had a hump on their back and lived in a bell tower or should be burned at the stake. More and more people are being treated terribly because they don’t look a certain way. Women are bombarded daily with images and content on how they are “suppose” to look. It seems that every time a woman picks up a “Glam” magazine her self worth drops 50 points or more. She is reminded by a shallow society that because she doesn’t look like a “star” or what society deems as beautiful she should hide herself away or need not live.
See that is the problem - how and who do you equate as "society"? I weigh a good 75 lbs more now than I did 13 years ago when my husband and I married. Yet though my shape is along the lines of the upper row, which some would consider fat or overweight due to not being "thin" or "skinny" I am hit on and approached more often now, in fact almost every time I go out I am approached. Even the friend's of my boys (teens and late teen) apparantly consider me attractive (much to my son's amusement) and you'd think they'd prefer "skinny" or "thin" as one would presume they were more influenced by Hollywood.
My point? I can only gauge things from my own perspective and my view is that "society" is not made up of Hollywood wannabes, actresses, directors and entourage but rather of the average individual on the street. Frequently I have heard men say that they prefer women with curves and consider them "real women" instead of "little girls" the same for the majority of women.
This makes the "glamour" mags and actresses appeareances irrelevant to the real woman as it isn't really a true gauge of society's concept of attractiveness but rather a concept behind looking good on screen which isn't the same.
3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same
God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has
intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo
Darboshanski posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:03 AM
Quote – “Yeah, okay. Exaggerate much?” I do look at other demographics and there is a lot of wonderful mainstream magazines and programs beginning to bust the myth on what is attractive out there. However the young women and teen girls suffering from this disorder obviously are NOT seeing what is being accepted as attractive.
Two years ago my sister lost her daughter to anorexia she was 17. Her reasons for starving herself was her image of herself, she needed to look like the women in the fashion mags and in the movies because this would be the only way to be accepted by girls her age and to attract boys. A close colleague of mine is a therapist and has been in the field for over 30years. She deals with not only eating disorders but also other society-based disorders. Most of the individuals she councils are teen girls and she is getting a rise in numbers of these girls as patients. These girls tell my colleague that they want to be skinny. They want to look like the women in the magazine articles, movies and music videos. They are often told by their boyfriends or peers that they are “too fat” or if they can’t dress or look like the popular girls they are ostracized. And it is just not eating disorders this applies to. If this is not influenced by society then what would you deem it as?
It is a known fact that humans emulate each other and want whatever the other guy has especially if that person holds a place of prominence in society. Humans do not want to be rejected by their peers and if it happens enough social disorders of some type are often the result. This is very true of young people and they are often the main targets of eating and social disorders. You can’t tell me that the fashion, entertainment and music industry and other popular corporations bombard these kids on a daily basis to use their products or listen to their music and if they don’t they are not “cool” and will not “fit” in with their friends. My last child living at home is 16 and he tells me if you don’t have the popular “gear” you are not acceptable and no one wants to hang with you.
The rate of people suffering from depression and social disorders in North America is growing each year and most psychologists and therapists are attributing this to society’s demands on people. Some say they don’t understand how society can make one feel bad about themselves and that is great for those people. However, if an individual has never had any other positive influences in their lives society is there only role model that they gage themselves by. Society has always played a role in influencing people always has always will. What is different today as opposed to years gone by is how we raise our children to look at themselves. It used to be you had your parents telling you that you didn’t need a bunch of stuff, to surround yourself with false friends and be the popular one to feel good about yourself. Unfortunately many kids don’t have this today with the break down of the family unit. I agree there are more magazines and outlets showing more types of people in many sizes and shapes. There even used to be a program on one of the cable networks of a fashion show for plus size ladies. Some media groups are trying very hard to get the message out that we are not all alike and it’s okay in being so. Then why is there such a startling rise in social and eating disorders in so many people?
Cheers,
Micheál
3-DArena posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:24 AM
Actually in many ways eating disorders are not just about fitting a preconceived standard set by others. Often it is also an attempt at control with many young girls who suffer from it trying to find a way to control some aspect of their lives. They often have overly high standards for themselves or live in a situation that places said standards on them or that removes control from their hands. Not eating - or controlling what they allow their body to digest is control - it isn't about fitting in as much as people think it is.
That isn't to say that self image and conforming doesn't kick start it for them but rather that they begin to realise that they have control there and that is where it goes out of control. Being told one is too fat or not good enough is a form of emotional abuse and abuse leads to a need to have some semblance of control. As women/girls are pushed more and more into being "perfect" women - and I don't mean their looks but having a top career (or top grades for a scholarship) and being a perfect mother and perfect mate while always trying to please everyone the need for control continues and becomes stronger in our youth.
It isn't really that culturally they feel they must be thin but rather that they feel that according to society they are lacking in some ways and it generally isn't their weight that is the underlying problem.
Many individuals with eating disorders can get to the bottom 2 rows of BH's images and they think they look too fat - they don't see the skin and bones that we do because it's not really about the weight to them but about their own self loathing and self image that may have nothing to do with weight. If one focuses entirely on their weight to that amount of obsession they do not have to focus on any other aspects of their lives.
3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same
God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has
intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo
3-DArena posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:28 AM
pssst sealtm2 - it's "copyright" not copywrite, as in the "right" to copy ;-)
(just a personal pet peeve ignore at will)
3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same
God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has
intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo
Keith posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:32 AM
Quote -
Men for some reason don't seem to have a stereotypical norm to try and fit into. Their hair goes gray and they are "distinguished".How many hair colour commercials are on during an hour long tv show? It seems like every other one. Who are they geared to? Women! If a woman doesn't colour her hair to hide the gray she's "old".
Actually, when I've seen hair colour commercials it is not what you describe at all. Men's hair commercials, and there are quite a lot, are without exception about hiding gray hair. Women's rarely, if ever, mention gray hair at all: they're about changing the colour from brunette to blonde or red, or red to black, or whatever. The subtext in men's commercials is about looking younger, that in women's about looking stylish.
I don't know how you've never noticed the commercials of men stroking colouring to get rid of gray streaks in their beards or magically having hot young women hanging over them because the brown is back.
3-DArena posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:40 AM
Quote -
I don't know how you've never noticed the commercials of men stroking colouring to get rid of gray streaks in their beards or magically having hot young women hanging over them because the brown is back.
Or because their hair is "back"... ;-)
3-D Arena | Instagram | Facebook
I do not feel obliged to believe that the same
God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has
intended us to forgo their use.
-Galileo
Keith posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:42 AM
Quote -
This makes the "glamour" mags and actresses appeareances irrelevant to the real woman as it isn't really a true gauge of society's concept of attractiveness but rather a concept behind looking good on screen which isn't the same.
An additional problem is what magazine you're looking at. Is it geared to men or women?
It's the fashion model/Playboy model difference. Women in magazines and commercials and such aimed at men are, on average, bigger (in terms of measurement) and thus curvier than models in fashion magazines and runways.
Bobasaur posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:51 AM
I'm a little surprised at your therapist colleague if she is the one who coined the term "society-based disorder." In my studies I never heard of one. I haven't seen one listed in the DSM4 - the manual used by Psychologists/therapists as the basis for diagnosis. What I would suspect is that the individuals are suffering from low self-worth and see altering their body in accordance with society's "highest" standards as a means to feel good about themselves. The pressure to look like that comes from within - not from without. I will grant you that there are some sub-cultures within society that have a high degree of peer-pressure, but one does not generally have to become a member of those sub-cultures if one doesn't want to. In the US, there are all sorts of sub-cultures - Yuppies, cowboys, goths, rock-n-rollers, blue-coller workers, religious people etc. - and they don't all have the same values and standards. I think what's key is your statement that, "If an individual has never had any other positive influences in their lives society is there only role model that they gage themselves by." That statement addresses the root of the problem. People don't have positive influences. They have absent fathers or mothers and broken homes. They see little stability in relationships. They see materialism as the goal of their existence, and find it unsatisfying. They see immediate gratification as 'life.' When they can't get that 'stuff' or that immediate gratification (which often happens because life simply isn't a 30 minute sitcom) they feel angry. And when they do get that 'stuff' they feel empty, because that's all it is. Stuff. BTW, nice point LadySilverMage ----- Out of curiosity, has there ever been a time (or culture) when women have not been idealized in some form or another? Has there ever been a time or culture when the local village, kingdom, or society has not pressured people to conform to it's standards? Especially those approaching the age where they could become married? If there has, it's been quite rare, which begs the question, what is genuinely different today?
Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/
AntoniaTiger posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 11:39 AM
Darboshanski posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 12:48 PM
Quote - I'm a little surprised at your therapist colleague if she is the one who coined the term "society-based disorder." In my studies I never heard of one. I haven't seen one listed in the DSM4 - the manual used by Psychologists/therapists as the basis for diagnosis.
Nope Bob that was my fault it should have read social phobias. She treats eating disorders and social phobias. There is so much I want to fit into my posts but I don't want them to be books either...LOL! From a personal stand point I don’t always agree with my colleague also I am not the type of individual who has a copy of the DMS4 laying around his library you’ll more likely find a SIG-sauer P226 and a few odd and end books, journals and pamphlets of interest. As a matter of fact I don’t always buy into “society” made me do it. I was just interjecting some material I have read from my research into eating disorders because of my late niece.
I have read many articles and books on eating disorders with real facts by doctors and researchers. But I have also ran across information with not "so fact" opinoins from the authors. Things such as some sociologists believe women in the past two decades have had to hold down three jobs: being a mother; making a living; and being thin. A qoute from Naomi Woolf in her book Beauty Myth "Thinness means discipline, efficiency, and in control." to an author stating that eating disorders are encouraged by society to oppress women. Yet the true professionals say that society does play a roll in eating disorders it is not a large one. However, there are still many therapists claiming that society has a major impact through media and fashion outlets on eating disorders.
Quote - What I would suspect is that the individuals are suffering from low self-worth and see altering their body in accordance with society's "highest" standards as a means to feel good about themselves. The pressure to look like that comes from within - not from without. I think what's key is your statement that, "If an individual has never had any other positive influences in their lives society is there only role model that they gage themselves by." That statement addresses the root of the problem. People don't have positive influences. They have absent fathers or mothers and broken homes. They see little stability in relationships. They see materialism as the goal of their existence, and find it unsatisfying. They see immediate gratification as 'life.' When they can't get that 'stuff' or that immediate gratification (which often happens because life simply isn't a 30 minute sitcom) they feel angry. And when they do get that 'stuff' they feel empty, because that's all it is. Stuff.
Agreed! I feel this is the main thought, and what I should have stuck with but I had too many thoughts and just kept typing..LOL! It all goes back to what kind of environment we were raised in. What was our means of emotional support? However, that isn't always the case either as with my niece. She was rasied in a loving home with as much emotional support my sister and brother-in-law could give. But as mentioned it's about control and in many disorders control plays a large roll. As I've said these are things I've read my only experience with this subject comes from my sister and even then I didn't feel the full affect. I've been around a long time, been in a lot of bad places and seen a lot of crap. But I am not closed minded to the point I can't learn more about stuff.
Quote - Out of curiosity, has there ever been a time (or culture) when women have not been idealized in some form or another? Has there ever been a time or culture when the local village, kingdom, or society has not pressured people to conform to it's standards? Especially those approaching the age where they could become married? If there has, it's been quite rare, which begs the question, what is genuinely different today?
Things have not changed but one, again my opinion, and that is back in the day people took responsiblity for thier actions and choices and they lived with the out come. Now days it's everyone else's fault or something in their environment has caused them to act the way they do.
LadySM my avatar was meant to be a joke. It has obviously failed...LOL!! OKay I'm done time to go have some fun!
Cheers,
Micheál
Miss Nancy posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 1:37 PM
connie, check ffabris in the gallery here (and elsewhere) for sexy hunks. dang! I've got avatars turned off, hence I musta missed the joke :lol:
Bobasaur posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 1:49 PM
That makes sense. I wonder if there's not also some genetic pre-disposition towards some of the things we deal with today? Or as another alternative, I know that dietary factors have contributed towards girls hitting puberty early. I wonder if that, too plays a factor in things like depression? I think once upon a time people were so worried about the needs of simply living that they didn't worry as much about 'keeping up with the Joneses' or 'what I'm entitled to.' The family support system, though often less than adequate, was there. People didn't move around as much and had more stabilty in their lives. I have no doubt that all of these factors contribute to the problems we see around us and experience. In our "For what it's worth" department, the USA is a very individual-oriented society - to a fault IMHO. Other cultures - for example Japan and many other Asian countries - are very group (society) oriented - sometimes to a fault as well. Group oriented cultures express much more of a demand for conformity than we do. Thus it would be interesting to know if the rates of depression, anorexia, and some of these other diseases - which I agree do have some social element - are higher in the US than in, say Japan.
Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/
Blackhearted posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 2:45 PM
Quote - Oh you would if you were an average size or God forbid above average in size woman going shopping looking for a cute outfit and all the really cute outfits are for size 6 and the ones in your size are unflattering and made out of the ugliest material etc. Whoever thought that large women look good in large bold prints has rocks in their head.
Or going to a sale only to find that all that is left on the racks are for size 6. Ever wonder why the size 14 and up are snapped up first? Because that's what most women are, yet skinny girls barely out of puberty made up to look 20 something are shoved in our faces on a daily basis in magazines and TV and movies etc.
actually i find its the other way around here.
in fact i just went shopping with rio last night. every single outfit i saw -- from the most conservative to the skimpiest -- was available from size 00 to size 16 or so. we picked her up a pair of lowrise camo cargos, a plaid miniskirt and fitted white shirt/tie and they had each of them up to size 16 (i know because im generally the one leafing through stacks to find a size 3 for rio) and the shirts from xs up to xxxl.
i read a statement in another thread by someone complaining 'why dont people make average morphs, like a size 16'. at least in canada, size 16 is not average. there are different average weights depending on what country in the world you are in.
here when theres a sale all the size 1-6 are completely gone, and there are always tonnes around 10, 12, 14, etc. you should come shopping in canada.
we use US sizes here in canada, so for those of you in the UK, a US size 10 is a UK size 14.
in terms of my morphs, if some people recall my first GND pack, ages ago for V2, was a combination of 4 different body morphs from thin, athletic, voluptuous and pregnant. so i do intend to do different body types, athletic just happened to be the first on the plate.
KarenJ posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 2:55 PM
I very much look forward to seeing what you can do with a voluptuous morph, Gabe. I know GND2 is walking off the shelves; I think a Voluptuous pack would run!
"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan
Shire
Blackhearted posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 3:05 PM
Quote - What's really unhealthy is that there's so many nekkid women pics around here and not nearly as many good looking nekkid men.
hey...
dont blame the guys. its no suprise that most of the guys here create pinups of female characters.
what i find amusing, however, is that 3/4 of the women create pinups of female characters too.... anyone care to analyze that?
in the meantime i will continue in my belief that its because most women are latent lesbians :)
and if anything, the male poser characters are far more idealized than the female. most female poser morphs are either 'thin' or voluptuously curvy -- conditions that are achieved simply by genetics and watching the portions.... whereas every single male morph is completely ripped in a way that is impossible without hours of daily commitment and a very strict diet.
if i had to make a similar chart explaining the categories of male poser morphs, thered be only one category. pfft.
Darboshanski posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 3:06 PM
I think there are many contributing factors. One these contributing factors in my opinion is the way news and information is easily disseminated. In the past it took days for information to reach people and in some cases not at all. So people were not aware of many things as they are today so there were less things you felt you had to protect yourself and your children from. Now in the age of information all the horrors of society are at your fingertips 24/7 and are relayed right down to the cell phone you carry. We hear about more threats to our person and children, about more products that corporations try to sell you because you need them, images of war, violent crime, natural disasters and political corupption. It comes at us from all directions and the only way to escape it is to turn it off. All this has to have an effect on the human psyche.
I agree there was a time when shelter and food were our only concerns and we spent a lot of time and energy into securing it which left little time for anything else. Unfortunately this still happens to many folks even today. There are still many who work more than one job in order to pay the bills and have little time for other things but our perceived list of necessities have changed.
I know that there is a high rate of suicide in Japan. The last information I read is that the government there is trying to come up with programs to relieve the crisis. Poor BH I fear his thread has been totally hijacked...LOL!!
Micheál
Blackhearted posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 3:07 PM
Quote - I very much look forward to seeing what you can do with a voluptuous morph, Gabe. I know GND2 is walking off the shelves; I think a Voluptuous pack would run!
its coming...
but there will be at least one other style first, so it will be the 3rd or fourth in the series.
Bobasaur posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 3:34 PM
Attached Link: Resolving emotional issues
That's true about the suicide rate in Japan. For example, kids commit suicide for failing in school... they've disgraced their families. That is why I think there can be 'fault' in that group-orientation. A few years ago some Japanese civilians went to Iraq to try to help out. In the US they would have been considered heros, models of self-sacrifice and compassion, but when they returned home, they were ostricized for 'embarrassing' the country by being individuals. IMHO that's just as bad as the US ostricizing many of our poor for not being able to make it on their own or recover from illness or disaster quickly. That list of perceived necessities is a critical factor. We *must* have the 'stuff.' We 'deserve' it. Advertising and Hollywood take our natural desires and whips them up to where we feel entitled to things. Where is that entitlement found in nature? In nature, the only thing you're 'entitled' to is to *try* for to breath just one more time. I think saying society is *at fault* for many of our problems is inaccurate. However, I agree that society contributes. I have seen that those with positive forces in their lives can resist and overcome the messages Madison Avenue and Hollywood send out. However, it *is* normal to want things. One of the ways a good cognitive therapist will do is help people understand the difference between a want and a 'need.' They'll help you work through the emotional issues (the demand for social acceptance) that can be so destructive. They can teach you to counter the false or destructive messages you hear from society. I've linked to something I wrote and posted in the OT forum a coulpe of years ago (It's on my web site). It's a brief summary of what *causes* destructive emotions - barring chemical imbalance. It's a lot shorter (and cheaper) than the many books on the subject. I speak of anger but the principles apply to other issues as well. They say, for example, that depression is merely anger turned inward... -------- Has it occurred to anyone that women may just inherantly be more beautiful than men? That would lead to so many women creating art with women as the theme. Or maybe males depict what they want while women depict what they want to be????Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/
Miss Nancy posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 4:00 PM
"Or maybe males depict what they want while women depict what they want to be" bob, check yer DSM - this is known as "projection" :lol: seriously, though (at least in regards to poser renders) they may be depicting what the software and available models limit them to. however, to get a valid sampling of opinion, you'd hafta ask everyone why they render what they render.
Bobasaur posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 4:34 PM
Yep, it is! Hmmm, I wonder if it would be proper to say that people who create sexually oriented material should make sure they use proper projection in order to prevent unwanted consequences? Actually I don't think there is one answer. People do things for many combined reasons. It's probably futile to attribute this to a single causal factor.
Before they made me they broke the mold!
http://home.roadrunner.com/~kflach/
Conniekat8 posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 5:24 PM
Quote -
Many individuals with eating disorders can get to the bottom 2 rows of BH's images and they think they look too fat - they don't see the skin and bones that we do because it's not really about the weight to them but about their own self loathing and self image that may have nothing to do with weight. If one focuses entirely on their weight to that amount of obsession they do not have to focus on any other aspects of their lives.
Well, as someone whom has dealt with an eating disorder all my life and been every size from zero to 22 (US) if I started feeling like that looking at the BH's images, instead of appreciating the art and the effort that went into them, I'd be on the phone with my shrink telling him I need a maintenance/reality check-up, it's getting out of hand again.
Hint to those whom are troubled by pretty pictures and fantasy art: There's no message, subliminal or otherwise in BH's images what I'm (or You) are supposed to look like. If I think I see one, it's very much in my own head.
Personally, I don't like to look at overweight models of women myself, noy in pleasant admiration at least, it tends to remind me of all of the physical discomforts of overweightness. Hurting feet, can't keep up in activities I like, heartburn, changing sizes and clothes not fitting right, blah blah, it's a pain in the rear, and the emotional discomfort that frequently preceeds the weight gain.
I think this equine has had enough flogging, I'm off to look at some Handsome Hunk Galleries ;)
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drifterlee posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 6:24 PM
Through history, popular body shape - at least for women - has changed drastically. Sparta liked thin women. Rubens loved voluptuous. Now, thin is in, but here in the States overweight is the norm because we have so much fast food and no time to cook healthy stuff - much less exercise. I'm lucky to have a horse which gives me a lot of exercise. Walking and biking is good, too. When I was a teenager I starved myself, now I figure it's stupid. It's better to eat healthy and exercise. Another problem here is that we have no real mass transport in most cities, and in big cities it is not very safe to use the subway or even buses because of crime. Most everyone has a car and drives - so not much exercise. Personally, I want to look like Angelina Jolie, LOL!!!!
FishNose posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 6:26 PM
Amazing how some people in this discussion provide their opinions as some kind of fact. Or their own personal experience as proof of one thing or another.
That's about on the level of the old one, 'Well, my uncle has smoked like a chimney all his life and he's 87, so it can't be dangerous to smoke'. Uh-huh. I've actually heard that one used, it made me speechless! For about 5 seconds.
These are two very different things - what you like (or think) - and what is fact.
BH, your first post is spot on, as are all your later replies. Sensible, accurate and unbiased.
And to the person who claimed (and did so seriously, apparently!!) that the first row, Anna Nicole, is some kind of 'normal' - what planet did you fall off? Heavy City USA?
Sure, voluptuous women can be very appealing. That's not the point at all. That's a matter of opinion or taste. It's not relevant here.
Skinny women can also be very appealing, and that's also a matter or taste or opinion.
For goodness' sake - what is typical in the US at the moment (people being large) is not any kind of ideal, nor normality. It's just average modern American.
Go look at 'normal' or average East African - and I'm not talking about starvation, I'm talking about ordinary people who eat and burn fats & carbohydrates at corresponding levels. Look at the sinewy fat-free look of people living the way Homo Sapiens was meant to live. They're more like 'normal' than MASSIVELY overweight US and some countries in Europe.
That's the level of labour our hearts and other organs are constructed to function most efficiently for. Call it 'sinewy' instead of skinny and we can avoid all the opinions about what constitutes skinny or attractive or whatever.
Calling any thin person 'anorexic' is a disastrous mistake. Anorexia is a severe mental and physical condition that leads to death unless stopped.
:] Fish - viewing this from an physical anthropological perspective, not personal or cultural preference, nor contemporary political correctness.
coelacanthropy posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 6:35 PM
Quote - I found this image of Nicole Ritchie that shows her weight loss over the months.
Personally, I think she should have stopped in December 2004. The difference over the next year is not an improvement.
Yes anorexia needs to be addressed. But one can only hope Nicole Ritchie and Paris Hilton would both at some point vanish.
Hawkfyr posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 6:36 PM
For what its worth,as a man,I'm much more attracted to a woman who has some weight ( The voluptuous group in BH's Primer ),than any of the other groups.
I think men may fall victim to what society thinks they should like.
Hopefully I can explain this.
My first wife,fell somewhere in the "thin" to "fit/toned" category.
She was considered "Hot" by society's standards and that was a big boost to "MY" ego.
Naturally I felt like a big shot being seen with society's idea of a fine specimen.
But I found that was much more physically attracted to heavier women,but I wouldn't admit to that because I thought I'd be ridiculed by my male friends for thinking that way.
I was much younger then,and probably fell victim to that kind of pressure.But the truth be told,I'd much rather get wrapped up with a voluptuous woman. I'd also wager that more men than you might think are also attracted to heavier women.Many wouldn't admit it though, because they would feel like they are not subscribing to what society thinks they should be attracted too.
Am I making sense here?
I guess what I'm trying to say is, Not only does it seem that society (meaning magazines, movies,etc) try to tell women what they should look like,...it also tries to tell men,what they should be attracted to.
I think it comes down to...People have different ideas of what is attractive to them.I just try not to let "Society" decide for me what turns me on.
Tom
“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”
Giana posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 7:12 PM
Gabe,
pleasepleaseplease say that the second of the series will look something like the second "muscular" girl you posted the pic of... just an incredible body pictured there...
personally, i get really tired of people inferring that women are only "real" if they are fleshy. i'm pretty damned petite [smaller than Amanda], so i absolutely appreciate a thinner V3 [who, imo, is a horrendous cow out of the box...] and clothes shopping? well if i wanna look like i'm 12, there's a plethora of clothing out there i could buy [snort]
Blackhearted posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 7:34 PM
the reason americans are heavier than, say, europeans is because fast food is a part of our culture here... and fast food is evil stuff. a big mac, large fries, coke, apple pie and some ketchup is just under 1700 calories. thats absolutely fuggin' insane... especially considering that more than half of those calories are coming from fat.
as for the 'new generation' of fast food?
like apple slices at mcdonalds, salads, baked potatoes, wraps, and heavy marketing of healthier alternatives like subway subs?
bah. whats the point of going to mcdonalds to buy a salad? or apple slices?
if i want apple slices ill step into the grocery store beside the mcd's and just buy some apples.
and whats this caramel BS? why is it that in north america we always have to slather healthy food with something greasy or sweet in order to eat it? caramel sauce on apples. melted process cheese on broccoli. deep fried bananas. whipped cream on blueberries. fried rice... and on and on. it defeats the entire purpose of eating something healthy.
the last time i went to subway with rio, we spent over $20 for a turkey & bacon 12" sub for me, some sortof southwestern chicken 6" sub for rio, and a couple of snapples. screw that, i can just head over to the grocery store and pick up a kilogram of shaved turkey breast, lettuce, tomatoes, some buns, and some swiss cheese for less than that, and eat a sub every day for a week.
classic fast food was incredibly unhealthy, but at least it had a point.
now? having salads and baked potatoes and subs at a fast food joint is just an excuse for being too lazy to walk into a grocery store and buy groceries, and perhaps pack a healthy bag lunch for yourself.
im 29, self employed, and most of my friends my age are college graduates with good jobs -- yet all they do is bitch about how they are overweight and need to get in shape, and how they never have any money. one of them is whining that he doesnt even have a car because it broke down and he cant afford to fix it. yet what did he do last night? and the night before? order pizza.
all of them eat out at fast food joints on a regular basis, order pizza almost nightly, and none of them pack a bag lunch or even make breakfast at home -- they eat breakfast in a donut shop and pay $4-5 every morning for a coffee they can make at home for 20 cents and some donuts they probably shouldnt be eating anyway. thats over $100 a month, and thats just breakfast. on average most of them are spending almost $20 a day on coffees, donuts, and lunch in a cafeteria, then coming home and ordering pizza for another $30. thats $50 a day just to eat unhealthy.
youll be much healthier and have several hundred more dollars in the bank at the end of the month if you just make a resolution to visit the grocery store instead of a fast food restaurant, eat breakfast at home, and pack a healthy bag lunch. cook dinner yourself rather than take the easy way out and order pizza.
drifterlee posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 8:24 PM
Subway is very expensive. When I was a reporter I worked 60 hours a week and was on call 24-7 with a police scanner running non-stop. I did not have time to cook anything at home, but tried to get salads whenever possible. However, here (US) it is not easy. Everything is supersized. They even made a movie called "Supersize Me" and the guy really got sick from all the fast food he ate while making the documentary. I was In England and France last summer, and everyone walks. Even to get a London tube train you must walk walk walk in the tunnel to catch the right train. That's why they are so thin. All the walking.
Blackhearted posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 8:54 PM
bah, theres no excuse that you have to eat fast food.
while i was in college i worked 3 jobs -- weeknights at an auto body shop, weekends unloading trucks at purolator courier, and extreme late tuesday and thursday nights driving cars back from the auction for a car dealer friend of mine. on sunday evening i cooked huge pots of chili, stews, etc. i froze them in serving size tupperware, and when i was heading out i grabbed one, chucked it in a little lunchbox-sized soft cooler with some drinks and fruit and off i went. it would keep everything cool during the day and when i had time for lunch id pop em in the microwave and have a hearty yet healthy meal.
you could do the same by making sandwiches the night before, or hell even if you pick up some of those stouffers's or michelina's or whatever frozen entrees you are still better off then eating big macs and whoppers :)
...and knowing i wasnt eating any partially defatted beef fatty tissue, mechanically separated chicken, pork by-product, beef tripe, or any of today's charming ingredients was a bonus :)
DarkStarRising posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 9:01 PM
i come from the UK, Drifterlee, not everyone is thin, should travel outside of london i hate LONDON and go to places like Kent of Eastsussex, the NORM there is a size UK 16+ i fitted right in!
What i found funny, when i was pregnant, i had guys trippin over themselves at me, i was horrified, then after having my son, blah blah blah, two years later, i was at my heaviest, and again guys where attracted by that, i thought they where MAD LOL, after loosing a lill weight, still the attraction was there, even from friends, both sexes, with all the Skinny/thin stuff in mags, i didnt care, i dont want to look like a bag of bones, i like having MEAT.
Tis why i was happy after my first marrige failed i met a 21 year old who LOVED women over a size 18+, he detests the "cheerleader look" ok i did laugh at that but coming to the US, i didnt feel well, FAT, i was thinner then some of the people here, being tall as well, i for the first time ever felt small compaired to some here!
anyhoo ill shut up now LOL
In the words of DarkStarRising:
"Sadness within sadness,
Darkness within darkness,
a shadow of a form lays upon the floor,
looking at herself
looking at her own shadows of loneliness"
MaterialForge posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 9:31 PM
I'm with Tom - voluptous women all the way.
Fast food? Didn't know it existed anymore. Last time I stopped for a mcBurger (about eight years ago) it didn't make it to me very fast... ;) Somewhere along the way the same thing happened with "Music" Television... :D
Voluptous...Voluptous...
It's a chant, really.
nakamuram posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 9:40 PM
I'm the opposite of hawkfyr. I find thin women to be physically attractive, however my wife who I love dearly, is on the heavy side of voluptuous. Love does not equal physical attraction. My mother has always been thinner than BH's thin. She's alive and healthy in her mid-80's.
Two of the biggest "Society Disorders" that we have are people's unwillingness to take responsibilty for their actions and to look for convenient scapegoats on which to place blame. This is something that children do. Unfortunately it's becoming accepted behaviour in adults.
There's much more to anorexia than "pressure to be thin." I think it's a slow way of committing suicide, where the victim is "calling for help" -- much like someone who overdoses on sleeping pills as opposed to shooting him/her self in the head. In the case of anorexia "pressure to be thin" is just the easiest and most convenient thing to blame, but probably not the real cause.
nakamuram posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:23 PM
Attached Link: Sonya Thomas
Maybe the best way to stay thin is to gorge ourselves on lots of food in a short period of time. Look at eating champions Takeru Kobayashi and Sonya Thomas. Maybe they should be our role models....Acadia posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:25 PM
Quote - I'm the opposite of hawkfyr. I find thin women to be physically attractive, however my wife who I love dearly, is on the heavy side of voluptuous. Love does not equal physical attraction. My mother has always been thinner than BH's thin. She's alive and healthy in her mid-80's.
That's why it's important to find someone who subscribes to the same "ideal" as you do.
On a side note, I hope you don't harp at her about how she looks. That's a sure way of hammering down someone's self esteem and making them either eat more or starve themselves trying to fit a mould that they don't necessarily want to fit into themselves.
I'll bet that you look different than you did when you were younger and first married. Maybe less hair, not as fit etc. It's a fact of life.
If you love your wife, you love her unconditionally, and that means who she is, not what her physical packaging looks like. Large or small, she's still the same woman that you fell in love with and married.
We are more than our outsides which changes over the years and becomes shriveled and wrinkled or disfigured from accidents etc. The "person" inside remains the same, and that's the entire essence of who you fell in love with.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
pakled posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:30 PM
gad..this took off..;)
Where to begin;
I think what's 'sexy' is seen as an ideal, something hard (or impossible) for most people to acheive. The reason Rubenesque was popular then was that it was hard to get fat then, so it was an ideal people strived for. Now, since everyone can get fat, skinny's the new inny..;)
Besides that, as anyone who's gotten to the p*rn areas of the web show, anything can be considered attractive. So for everyone, there's something that appeals.
I used to have a Playboy collection going from 62-96, and the foldouts from the 60's are, well, closer to 'Rubenesque' than say, the 80's. So the form changes over time.
Different cultures have different areas of attraction; I'm told Japanese men have a thing for long necks, and in West Africa, a large, er, 'bum', is the thing. But I could be wrong, or outdated.
And, surprisingly, obesity is now becoming a problem in the 3rd world as well, according to reports. Fast food is becoming universal, with the resulting consequences.
Japanese do place a high priority on conformity, they have a saying " the nail that sticks out gets hammered back in"
My daughter could get into a size 0 (US) back when she was 15. Of course now, being 7 months, those days are over..;) I didn't know they even had size 0 then.
And, as I remember (I'm just a repository of useless information..;) Marylin Monroe was a size 14, and that was back in the 50's...;) I'm also told that clothing manufacturers are 'relaxing' the size numbers, so a n 8 now might be a 10 or 12 20 years ago.
If I ever figure out how to get the clothes to match the model, I'll do less 'stock' images (I remember 'deflating' Dina, and then the clothes go on, and she's back to 'voluptuous'..;)
ok..that's my 2 cents..;)
I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit
anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)
nakamuram posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 10:38 PM
She was always on the heavy side of voluptuous. I was wise enough to look past that. When we met I was unemployed, she was wise enough to look past that. I harp on her now and then about losing weight for health reasons, not looks reasons.
linkdink posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 11:26 PM
hawkfyr said:
**>**For what its worth,as a man,I'm much more attracted to a woman who has some weight ( The voluptuous group in BH's Primer ),than any of the other groups.<
Me too. I like the "fit" and "voluptuous" body types (as in the Primer pics) but the older I get, the more I seem to gravitate to the curvy types.
and:
I think men may fall victim to what society thinks they should like.<
I agree, some men might. I think I did.
And to take the discussion back to Poser -- and I think this is funny: I honestly think that in the 2 years since I got serious with Poser, my practice in morphing V3's body to my liking has actually influenced my taste in real women! or maybe it has simply awakened a latent appreciation for serious curves - like these :)
http://excalibur.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1159522&member
Blackhearted posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 11:31 PM
are you sure marilyn monroe was a size 14 in the 50s?
she looks like a pretty small size 14 :)
Hawkfyr posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 11:33 PM
I mean..look at me back in my younger days.
8 )
Tom
“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”
Blackhearted posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 11:34 PM
my eyeeesss.. :(
billy423uk posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 11:38 PM
Quote -
It the same with men when it comes to money,and when the total of his bank account is the measuring stick of his self worth.
I just don't get how someone can let someone else's opinions,govern their self image to the point of hiding away.
Who is really the Shallow one in this scenario?
Tom
not me tom, i'm fuckin loaded....rrotflmao
billy
billy423uk posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 11:40 PM
Quote - Perhaps our passions change as we age.
I mean..look at me back in my younger days.
8 )
Tom
are you a pole dancer or a cheque bouncer lmao. the pic is so funny lmao
billy
billy423uk posted Thu, 27 July 2006 at 11:43 PM
Quote - For what its worth,as a man,I'm much more attracted to a woman who has some weight ( The voluptuous group in BH's Primer ),than any of the other groups.
I think men may fall victim to what society thinks they should like.Tom
for what it's worth, i'm attracted to women that straddle my loins and moan a lot inbetween using phrases like...who's ya daddy and i ain't chargin ya for this one sailor boy
billy
Miss Nancy posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 12:06 AM
gadzooks, tom! I dunno which pole to stare at :lol:
nakamuram posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 12:11 AM
Quote - are you sure marilyn monroe was a size 14 in the 50s?
she looks like a pretty small size 14 :)
Clothes must have been tighter back in the old days...
Hawkfyr posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 12:16 AM
Actually Nancy,.. "That" is the measuring stick of my self worth...
8 )
Tom
“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”
KarenJ posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 1:39 AM
The "Marilyn was a size 14" thing is because she was a size 14 UK size ;-)
She does indeed look like a 14 UK. And very beautiful.
"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan
Shire
Blackhearted posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 8:00 AM
she was american though, not british. what was she doing wearing british dress sizes?:)
seems like a convenient way to skew an argument.. heh. i could look at someone like anna nicole smith who is a size 18, convert it to a UK size and say 'look, we have size 22 playboy models in north america' :)
Blackhearted posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 8:34 AM
oh, and while were on the subject... i never got what the big deal was with marilyn monroe.
to me, she just seemed like a dumb blonde who happened to be in the right place at the right time, and ended up knowing (read: sleeping with) the right people.
im more of a bettie page guy....
now theres a hardworking girl :)
and an interesting article on marilyn monroe's dress size... that ties in directly to this thread.
drifterlee posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 10:24 AM
Have you noticed that Betty and Marilyn have small breasts? BTW, vintage clothes from the 1950s ran much smaller than now, so Marilyn probably would fit into a 7 or 9 today. Victorian ladies clothing fits thin, short kids. Same with Civil War uniforms. They would fit small boys. People get taller and bigger with every generation. As far as Blackhearted, "Will you marry me and do all the cooking???" He sounds like he would make a wonderful wife., LOL! Wonderful animation, Hawkfyr!
Blackhearted posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 10:40 AM
id say bettie page had 'small breasts'.. they looked great.
but marilyn? wasnt she a D? many of the pics i posted above were from when she was quite young so perhaps she hadnt filled out yet :)
anyways her 37-22-36 measurements are a total crock. im no tailor, but i can tell that she didnt have a 22" waist. maybe in a corset or with a belt (or ratcheting cargo strap) cinched around her waist, sure.. but those arent your 'measurements'. seems marketing was just as bad back then as it is now.
bigjobbie posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 11:27 AM
Quote - " are you sure marilyn monroe was a size 14 in the 50s?
she looks like a pretty small size 14 :) "
She's doing that twist-to-the-side pose which makes the waist look smaller, so that could skew perception.
I saw a show which went into the whole "Beauty Template" theory - that it's all about ratios than actual sizes. So your bum relative to your waist would be considered ideal for health/procreation if it fits this template.
But exaggeration (BIG bum to THIN waist) also works this "template" response in the opposite effect.
But a crappy (or non-existant) personality is always a turn off I reckon.
Cheers
Darboshanski posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 12:32 PM
A crappy personality is the pits. But in order for some people to feel good about themselves they will take the crap personality as long as the person they with is beautiful. It is kind of what Tom was refering to about men being told by society what type of women they should have. I knew a few guys in my time with "trophy" wives it made them feel like more of a man.
Hey don't forget Jayne Mansfield and Jane Russell
Did you know Mariska Hargitay of Law and Order SVU is Jayne Mansfield's youngest daughter?
OKay.........
What do you mean by fast food? Are you just talking about McDonalds or are you adding in the rest of them? Like Burger King, Dunkin Donuts, Pizza Hut, Wendy's, Kentucky Fried Chicken and some non-big chain places? You can get heavy without hitting those places and them being used as a scapegoat is old news. Another thing is this low fat crap. Yes, maintaining a low fat diet is important and great for cardio-vascular health however, people replace the high fat foods with foods high in carbohydrates. The average person does not need large amounts of complex carbs (Breads, starches and pastas) unless they are a professional athlete or some one with a very physical occupation. They need the carbs for the vast amounts of energy they burn. My diet consists of low-fat and low-carb foods. The only time I take in more carbs is when I am hiking, XC-skiing or snow shoeing not only that I am closing in on the 50 mark and my body doesn't burn things like it did when I was 25.Oh yeah, moderation and personal responsibility are key. It's okay to have some of the things you like as long as it's in moderation. IT is your responsibility to make wise food choices not the fast food joints, grocery stores and other eating establishments. This era of blaming others is getting old and it’s childish. It reminds me of my children when they were young and would blame their imaginary friends for their behavior.
Cheers,
Micheál
bigjobbie posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 12:45 PM
Yeah I saw a doco on Mansfield where they showed the SVU chick as her daughter (you can spot the resemblance once you've been told of the fact ,heheh).
I guess Health is the actual point here - you can be big or thin etc and be attractive as long as you don't look unhealthy with it.
One person can be size 16 and healthy with it, but someone else can be size 16 and look like Baron Harkonen from the Dune movie...
That also goes for people with average builds whose poor health can be revealed by a bad complexion etc - (that means all of YOU with the nice translucent Screen-Tan! heheheh) they might not have a visible weight problem but that doesn't mean they aren't sporting cheese-lined arteries...
Cheers
Blackhearted posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 12:47 PM
since you brought up 'low fat' -- many people are often under the misconception that if something is labeled 'low fat' or 'fat free' it must be healthy.
there are many things that have no fat, but are pure calories. soft drinks, jam, candies, etc. sugar is even worse for you than fat.
some fat is necessary in your diet. i actually disagree with all of these health fads... like with the 90s it was completely eliminating fat from your diet and going overboard on the protein, now its avoiding carbohydrates, etc.
i think that completely eliminating something from your diet can be just as harmful as overindulging in it. as for what is good for you? humans are omnivores. millions of years of evolution put us here like this. vegans? pfft..... eat your meats, grains, fruits, vegetables, and dont overdo it on the unnatural crap like sugars, synthetics, additives, preservatives, caffeines, nicotines, etc and youll be fine :)
Blackhearted posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 1:12 PM
Quote - I guess Health is the actual point here - you can be big or thin etc and be attractive as long as you don't look unhealthy with it. One person can be size 16 and healthy with it, but someone else can be size 16 and look like Baron Harkonen from the Dune movie...
within reason, IMO.
if you are getting up there in the size 20s you should try and lose some weight - not to fit some media ideal but because you will live longer. that is not just an 'opinion' -- it is proven medical fact that obesity leads to a dramatically higher risk of a wide variety of ailments, diseases and afflictions.
there needs to be a very clear line drawn with the 'feel good in your own skin' and 'be happy with the way you are' type media. being significantly obese is not healthy, and noone should be encouraged to stay that way.
im sure there are people that are, say, a size 20 and look healthy and think they are healthy, but the inescapable fact is that they are not. many people rationalize being overweight like its some sortof personal preference or style choice. they are is deluding themselves... if i go and put on a pair of leather pants instead of my usual blue jeans its not going to halve my lifespan. being merely 'overweight' increases your chances of developing type 2 diabetes seven-fold. being obese makes you 20 to 40 times more likely to develop diabetes. this is not a matter of personal preference, its a matter of being unhealthy. encouraging someone to feel good about being obese is as absurd as encouraging them to jump for joy that they are a lifetime chain-smoker.
screw the societal ideals, and anyone that is attracted to you based primarily on your looks is not worth being with -- but if one thing motivates you to shed some pounds let it be the opportunity to live a longer, healthier life.
Hawkfyr posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 1:27 PM
I mean...just because I'm more attracted to women with weight,doesn't mean I wouldn't buy BH's morphs if the project called for it.
But I'm sure my personal preferences played a big role when I decided to make my own character.
I'm not much of a modeler but this is what I have so far.
Tom
“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”
bigjobbie posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 1:34 PM
Oh yeah - I should have said "aren't unhealthy with it" rather "don't look unhealthy with it."
There's definately a division between societal ideals of beauty and natural/biological ideals - the languae has been somewhat usurped by marketeers and the like unfortunately who have learned the tricks of reshaping societal ideals for monetary gain (basically people who use "Manufacturing Consent" as a play-book rather than an awareness-raising aid.)
Cheers
Ghostofmacbeth posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 2:00 PM
The women's sizes have also changed. Even just in a few years. My girlfriend used to be a size 2, now a size 0 can be too large for her because the sizes have shrunk.
Mock posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 2:56 PM
Haven’t I heard some place that dress manufacturers have been gradually increasing the actual size of women’s clothing in-order to save the egos of modern women? I know for a fact I was stuck in a conversation (yes stuck) where a woman stated that her daughter, a size 4 in the 90's, took some of her friends clothing that were vintage 70's also size 4 and couldn’t come close to getting them on.
And 1% body fat does not equal health, but you can come close as long as you maintain muscle and proper diet. At the same time no matter what the average is, 30% or higher body fat is not heathy.
My question is if the standard of beauty is so scqued in the overly thin direction why is over weight the norm? Just because what’s seen as perfection is unattainable that don’t mean it’s ok to just give up.
Look at men what is perfection for us? The Greek-God look that’s also nearly 1% body fat on top of which 4-8 hours a day at the gym, to get that look. That’s not average either and for most men quite unattainable. But when a man sees another man that’s emaciated he wonders what’s physically wrong with him, he does not sit there and blame societies views of physical attraction.
But to the point Blackhearted’s characters look great, they are not emaciated and for someone to say they are, to me is a slap in the face of those women who do the work, eat right, work-out, and have bodies that are tone with little fat and yes look great.
Finally if your casting for an athletic adventurer type character like Laura Croft or Red Sonia you are not looking for an Anna Nicole Smith type or larger to play it.
TrekkieGrrrl posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 2:57 PM
Well to me, if you can actually SEE someone's hipbones, they're too thin.
The only bone I can accept showing is a collarbone (heh and the skull..) Everything else is ... icky emaciated.
OK that may just be an excuse because I probably weight about twice as what I ought to, but you know what? I like me :)
And I SERIOUSLY don't think skinny looks healthy. Skinny looks famished.
I'm not advocating for obesity, that's as icky as emaciated bodies, but... something in between.
Luckily a lot of guys actually want something to hold onto ;)
(oh and I don't like skinny men either... except for Snape and he is, after all, a fictional character LOL)
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Hawkfyr posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 3:13 PM
Yeah...but our hero could come in many forms.
8 )
Tom
“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”
Mock posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 3:39 PM
true, though I don't know about THAT form :blink:
Darboshanski posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 4:09 PM
We are all gonna die and that's a fact and from what and when no one can say. All you can do is try to stay as healthy and happy as you can. Besides, at the rate Americans are dying in auto accidents you're more likely to get smoked in your car.
I sometimes think how ironc it would be for me to have been sent to the most violent hell holes on earth were the people there would love to have disemboweled me only to be neutralized and put in vinyl just from being in my car....interesting.... Ehem....sorry just a dark moment I have so many.
Anyway stay healthy!
Mock posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 6:34 PM
DON’T say auto accidents been in two this year, both as a passenger, both with my wife driving, both within a month of each other, both totaling out her vehicle, both the fault of someone not paying attention.
The first a teen girl decides at the last second that she is going to gun it and try and turn in front of us at an intersection it was a wet night, we were going about 30 through a green light she was coming from the opposite direction and we hit nearly head on. Air-bags do work.
After we got things settled with the girls insurance company my wife got a new suv (a small one a Honda cr-v) 4 days later we are coming home from seeing my mom when this old guy comes off a side road and slams into us (I intimately know the workings of side curtain air-bags now). The officer put "drinking but not impaired" on his report for the guy that hit us my wife told the officers superior that running a stop sign and hitting a black suv in the middle of a sunny day seemed like indications of impairment to her, his superior agreed. This guy had high-risk insurance (history of driving under the influence) its been two months and yesterday I got the call that they are finally paying of her car and sending us the remainder.
Acadia posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 8:05 PM
Quote - Well to me, if you can actually SEE someone's hipbones, they're too thin.
The only bone I can accept showing is a collarbone (heh and the skull..) Everything else is ... icky emaciated.
Precisely! When you start to see bones like the hip, ribs, joints (knobby shoulders, knees, fingers) and outlines of tendons, that's just gross to look at, and is certainly indicative of being under weight. Percentage of body fat on a women is extremely important for her hormone levels as well as child bearing ability.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
OddDitty posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 8:31 PM
bah.
Blackhearted's girls are way too thin and just skin and bones. He should be looking to real women.
giggles
Hi gabe :D
laughs maniacally and runs away
sixus1 posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 8:49 PM
On the original point:
I think that Gabe should make whatever he likes and people can either buy it and use it or not. If someone else wants to make different body types of women, they can. It is a sad statement that he felt harressed and possibly insulted enough that he had to make this post. If people have requests for him, be sure not be confrontational or insulting.....ya know...be nice about it and he might consider it more seriously. :)
--Rebekah--
nakamuram posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 8:57 PM
What sets Marilyn Monroe "apart from the rest" is her tragic death and that she died when she was still beautiful. She's a real-lfe tragic heroine. Other great beauties "fade away." Marilyn took her beauty and fame to the grave. On the outside, Marilyn had everything to live for, yet she chose to die. There have been, are, and will be women who are more beautiful, but none more "tragic."
zorares posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 9:59 PM
Quote - "Americans have been snatching food from the mouths of starving Third World children" I've never even been to the third world.
I have, food sucks
faeriesprite posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 10:16 PM
Quote - Well to me, if you can actually SEE someone's hipbones, they're too thin.
Umm, I'm a size 8 and you can STILL see my hipbones. I am certainly not 'underweight'..that is not a precise indication of someone being too thin.
JenX posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 10:19 PM
First things first, this has been a very interesting post....and, I found myself totally engaged with Acadia's point....that most "Plus Sized" clothing is absolutely ghastly (and, well, if you go for stylish "Plus Sized" clothing....................if you're over a 18, I, as a fat woman, feel it should be illegal, on penalty of death, to wear a freaking belly shirt and brazillian cut jeans. ICK.). I don't blame my current weight on society, or even my situation, but, quite frankly, my lack of self-control in my situation. After I lost my job last year, and couldn't deal with my (then) husband not only not looking for a job, but spending all of my severance pay in 3 shopping trips, being without money for food, clothing, and bills, I ate my way to...not happiness, but comfort. Cheese on freaking EVERYTHING. I'm currently a size 22. That's down from a size 28 not 3 months ago. But, as great as I feel when I note that I've lost 6 dress sizes in 3 months, and continue to lose weight at a healthy rate, the clothes that are available to me make me feel like shit. First, I'm in no way going to wear clothing that will show any skin on my abdomen, and there is NO WAY IN HELL I'm going to wear tight clothing. For people of all sizes, spankex is a PRIVELEGE. Not a right.
But, I got a semi-professional job this past week, and I've had to spend over $300 bucks in a specialty shop for 3 suits. THREE. I'm used to cobbling together outfits from clearance racks and making things work. I can't afford it, and don't know many who could. No wonder so many large women just deal with the fact that the really UGLY ass clothes that are left on the racks for them. People who know me know that I am in NO way a yellow-flower print type of chick. To be completely honest, I'd rather not have a professional job, and wear nice, comfy old man pants and cowboy shirts. That's been my comfy style since high school, and, while I'm aware that I look like a geek in that, It's my CHOICE to look like a geek. the "choice" left to larger women isn't a choice, it's a force. Unless you can find someone to loan you the money to shop at a specialty shop. I figure, you know, if my dad, who is 6'4", and 265lbs, can shop in the regular stores, I should be able to find something somewhat normal. I'm 5'8" and 250lbs., and can't find a damn thing that's worth wearing. For someone who's young and actually fashion conscious, those things are an utter detriment. I wonder, if I were actually back in the mindset I was in a year ago, would I have settled? You bet your ass! I'd have settled, then gone out and bought a pound of cheddar, some cream and butter, some cream cheese and sugar, and gone ahead and made some homemade mac and cheese and a cheesecake and ate it by myself. Now? I made a complaint at the store, and took my business elsewhere. For myself, I can't afford to balloon up again. For my son, I can't afford to not be able to run around with him. For my family, I can't afford to not be able-bodied to help around the farm. Some people either don't have the support or just aren't emotionally strong enough to pull up their bootstraps and deal with the shit. You either walk through it, clean it up, or sit in it. No one else can choose for you.
Now that I think I threw out 40 mixed metaphors, LOL, I'm going to bed.
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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it
into a fruit salad.
pakled posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 10:28 PM
me and my big mouth. I read in an article about 15 years ago about the 'size 14' bit..;) Could be another urban myth. Actually, towards the end of her career (late 50's, early 60's) she had, er, 'plumped out' a touch.
there's room enough for all sorts of body shapes. The anorexic look leaves me cold, unhappy-looking women aren't that appealing. But that's me..;)
I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit
anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)
Letterworks posted Fri, 28 July 2006 at 11:27 PM
pakled, you said the right thing... there IS room enough for all sorts of body shapes! I like woment from the skinny to the volumptuous range and maybe a bit more! The really important thing it that they are HAPPY! The unhappy ones have the problems wheither in one extreme, the other extreme or in between.
variety makes the world go round!
mike
Blackhearted posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 7:20 AM
Quote - For people of all sizes, spandex is a PRIVELEGE. Not a right.
hehe. interestingly, many women i know who are obese would wear spandex.
their unofficial uniform seems to be spandex pants or tights, with a tshirt thats about 8 sizes too big for them and hangs down to mid thigh, and running shoes.
im no expert, but IMO tailored clothing looks better on larger women. i know its more expensive but surely you can shop around for deals somewhere. the fashion stores around here have up to around size 18ish... and ive seen separate plus size versions of many popular stores (though why they have to segregate larger women to their own store i dont know).
do you americans have 'Winners' in the states? its basically a store that sells all brand name or designer stuff -- ralph lauren, liz claiborne, tommy, calvin klein, etc -- at severely discounted prices. you have to hunt through things (so there wont be one style of shirt from size S to XXXL, there may be just a M and an XL) but they have plus and petite sizes as well.
you can pick up a pair of pants, or a shirt that was originally $120 for around $30... its a pretty sweet place, i do a lot of my shopping there.
there are a lot of styles of clothing aside from spandex pants or 4" long miniskirts that look downright sexy on larger women. sure, its a bit of extra work finding them, but its like that for every woman thats not around the average height/weight range. i have to hem like 6" off of every single pair of pants rio buys.
they have those shaper thingies now too which can give you some wicked curves -- the effect on some women is jaw-dropping. some bathing suits even have them built-in.
on a side note, why are 90% of the women modeling clothing in plus size sections of stores thin? try http://www.fredericks.com/ for example.
oh, and in my googling i found this :)
JenX posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 7:33 AM
Yeah, we have a sort of "Winners". Well, Winners and TJ Maxx are owned by the same company, so yeah, same store, different name. But, I haven't shopped at stores like that for clothes since the 90's ;) They are excellent for home decor, dishes, and small furniture, though;)
In my (reeeeeeeeally rural) area, there's the one shoppe, and it's at least 45 miles away from where I am now. I've never been one to fuss over my outward appearance, so this whole having clothes made specifially for me stuff........it's really akward. And, when I'm not comfortable with my fatness, it makes it that much worse. I'm not a girly girl. Yes, I know how to wear makeup. I was a cheerleader in high school, and I did beauty pageants. That's one of those things you do here. The winner of the pageant usually ended up milking a goat in a ball gown anyway. And I've never been skinny. My body frame is more suited for the muscular look, anyway, so I'll never ever be a size 6. In fact, I'd look HORRIBLE. I have a picture, somewhere, of my older sister as a size 6, and she looks like a heroin addict :P
But, there are great places, mostly online, for shopping for bigger ladies. I like torrid.com. heh, my wishlist there is 3x as long as it's ever been here. Although, there's no way I'd ever wear my Dickies as tight as they're advertised.
I'm just babbling now. I'm trying to make today not happen. (I found out last night, at about 11PM, that I'm set to sing and play guitar for the "really exciting" 125th anniversary "party" for our town. Our really big one. That.............has a 4 way stop sign, an elementary school, a high school, a phone company.............................and the railway crosses a whole TWO of our streets. Yee-freaking-haw)
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JenX posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 7:34 AM
Oh, and those Spanx shapers? I TOTALLY swear by them. They are FAN-freaking-TASTIC!
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Blackhearted posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 7:43 AM
by tailored i should have said 'fitted'.
like my first example above is a very fitted look, but you can buy something like that off the rack.
throwing on a sweatshirt, for example, or a baggy tshirt, would be the opposite of fitted.
this is cute:
but then what is it with the typical dress like this:
these giant prints look absurd, IMO. is it supposed to be some sortof 'overweight camo' that blends the woman's shape? i dont like most of their dresses, i think you could do a lot better.
bigjobbie posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 7:43 AM
Blackhearted posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 7:48 AM
oh, and btw ive been to a TJ maxx in detroit. they may be the same company but the difference between the two was night and day... it was grungy, messy and you had to hunt for a long time just to find something you like, the salespeople were snooty and snappy.
then again, it was in detroit so they may be different elsewhere.
rofl at the superheroes...
that elf dude is really creepy, jesus
JenX posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 8:19 AM
Quote - oh, and btw ive been to a TJ maxx in detroit. they may be the same company but the difference between the two was night and day... it was grungy, messy and you had to hunt for a long time just to find something you like, the salespeople were snooty and snappy.
then again, it was in detroit so they may be different elsewhere.rofl at the superheroes...
that elf dude is really creepy, jesus
My bet on the scrunginess factor would be that you went to one in Detroit. The one in Toledo is better, as are the two (I think) that I've been to in Minneapolis. Beyond that, they could all be scrungy, who knows?
heh, I never said I'd wear everything I saw in torrid ;) I do, however, have plans to buy that military dress on Friday ;) The tube dress? Not a freaking chance. Halter dress? Maybe, if the back isn't cut too low, and I can wear my hair down. But, no tube tops, belly shirts, or brazillian cut jeans (hell, those are gross on most skinny girls, LMAO)
Anyway, I've been procrastinating for long enough. Time for me to go suck in the outside world. Hopefully, LOL, it will rain, and I can come home.
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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it
into a fruit salad.
zorares posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 10:31 AM
I'm sorry, I find this thread silly. Anorexia is a disease of the mind where a person loses weight because they "think" that they're fat. It has nothing to do with actual weight of a person. Some people can eat and eat and never put on a pound and other's can look at food and get fat. This has to do with a person's metabolism, not their state of mind. While I do think that Blackhearted's figures can be a bit "thin" and Aery Soul's down right skinny, this has nothing to do with anorexia. I personally find women beautiful in almost all forms except obese and super muscled. It seems to me that the problem here is not what these figures look like but our perceptions and therefore we need to look into the mirror before we bitch.
Blackhearted posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 10:39 AM
thats exactly the point of this thread though, zorares... despite which directions it took.
sure you can be 300 pounds and be anorexic... but there since poser characters do not have a mental element you can only evaluate them by look alone.
i dont like my morphs being referred to as anorexic, thats all. this thread exists to show people theres a huge difference between thin and anorexic, and the word should not be used lightly.
much less the phrase 'disturbingly anorexic' or 'disgustingly anorexic'.
pakled posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 11:16 AM
hmm..don't tell the missus...but she's in the double-digit range. TJMaxx is one destination, and something else called the Fashion Bug, which has stuff she can't find. She'd like to lose a lot of weight, but I loves her anyways, and that's what counts..;)
I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit
anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)
Arien posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 11:29 AM
Quote - hehe. interestingly, many women i know who are obese would wear spandex.
their unofficial uniform seems to be spandex pants or tights, with a tshirt thats about 8 sizes too big for them and hangs down to mid thigh, and running shoes.
And in my opinion, they do a great disservice to themselves. The only times I'm wearing that sort of thing is when I'm cleaning my house.
Quote - im no expert, but IMO tailored clothing looks better on larger women. i know its more expensive but surely you can shop around for deals somewhere.
It does look a HELL of a lot better, but because of the difference in sizes, it's very difficult to tailor things right. Example: two people might have similar hip and waist measurement, but in one it can be mostly located on the sides (making them wide but not "thick") and in other, at the front, in a belly. Yet according to standardise sizes they should both be wearing the same size, although anybody can tell that the construction of fitted clothing for one will not be the same for one as for the other. The only real way to beat this is to have clothes made to measure, either by yourself or by a seamstress, or to have them altered as necessary. But both solutions require extra cash on top of what tends to be already quite expensive clothing.
The second problem is that quite often it is very difficult to find clothes that actually suit large women. Either because they're trying to blindly follow what's fashionable, making larger sizes of things that no self-respecting large person should be wearing (large apliqué pockets on hips and breasts, tube tops, large prints and other niceties come to mind) or because they're making things that resemble circus tents because it's easier to make something that will fit everybody, by making it shapeless.
And Gabe, re the large prints, totally agreed. Now think how much nicer that stupid white dress would look in a plain fabric: it shows off cleavage and nice shoulders, tapers the silhouette with the A-line skirt, and enhances the waist with the long waist-cincher style. I have the feeling however that the large prints are supposed to make you look smaller because small prints would appear to be too many, or some other nonesense like that. Me? give me nicely cut, no-prints any time.
Then again, that's exactly the reason why I started making some clothes for myself.
Arien
mickmca posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 12:43 PM
Marilyn M's Size 14 is a ludicrous piece of folklore that won't die. I've heard it repeated scornfully by women who were "bigger" than MM in every dimension and themselves smaller than a size 14 (the real point of the canard, after all). One of them considered my adoration of her twin-peach posterior utterly inconceievable and confided to me one day that she accepted the childhood nickname Bubblebutt. She was built like one of my two favorite Poser femmes, BH's free Angelina of the Soft Guitar (a V2 morph if I remember correctly).
The "British sizes" explanation for "Size 14" is the only one I've seen that makes any sense. And I find it interesting that the only picture that really looks like MM in BH's post is the last one, where what changes is not just the superficial (the hair color), but the confidence and self-regard in the smile. The other pictures are someone pretending to be MM. The last one is her being Marilyn.
There are many prettier women than MM (not including Page, IMO), and many healthier bodies than hers (maybe including Page). And a chorus line of wannabes and self-anointed heirs, but only one Marilyn, who was not a body or a personality or even, I think, a person, but a new way of being female, one that our porn-craving prudery despised and rejected.
M
mickmca posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 12:53 PM
Quote - The really important thing it that they are HAPPY! The unhappy ones have the problems wheither in one extreme, the other extreme or in between.
Hear, hear! I was a Weight Watchers trainer for a year or so (which you can't do unless you have been there and lost the weight; I lost fifty pounds), and the thing I harped on constantly with my folks is that if you are happy, you are probably the right weight.
The most interesting phenomenon I found was that successful weight losers often celebrated that success with a nice divorce. As did I. Speaking of co-dependency....
M
bigjobbie posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 2:11 PM
What's that joke - "Thanks to weight watchers I lost 200 pounds of unsightly fat - his name was Fred."
Cheers
Acadia posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 9:20 PM
Quote - Me? give me nicely cut, no-prints any time.
Then again, that's exactly the reason why I started making some clothes for myself.
Arien
Ditto! No matter what size I am I prefer plain, no print outfits. I think prints are better on windows or furniture, LOL
I also design and make a great deal of my own clothing. Especially my nursing uniforms because I can make one for $10 to $20 vs $60 in the uniform stores.
Not only that, but I have only a 24" inseam and even petite pants need to be hemmed up about 2 inches for me. Buying non petite items requires me having to crop off 6 inches or even more at times from the bottom of pants, which requires me to have to re-taper the legs. It's a royal pin in the butt. It just seems easier for me to create my own design and pattern and get something that fits me where I need it.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
pakled posted Sat, 29 July 2006 at 9:28 PM
well, considering a boost in self-esteem, possible improved looks (many factors come into play here), and a really big change in one's life might give one the idea that other things in their life need change as well..;)
I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit
anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)
Blackhearted posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 11:00 AM
this one is for people who assume that any little bumps on a woman's torso are 'ribs', and also that seeing someones ribs automatically means that they are 'unhealthy' or 'anorexic'.
if i had a nickel for every time i heard 'she needs to put on some weight, i can see her ribs' id be a rich man. seeing someones ribs has more to do with their percentage of body fat than their overall health or weight class. yes, unhealthily skinny and anorexic people generally have their ribs showing. but someone can very easily be in exceptional health and still have their ribs clearly visible. many photos also have women arching their backs and inhaling to puff out their chests, thereby making their ribs more prominent. there are many people whose ribs dont show when they are standing up straight, but if they just pull their arms back a bit youd be able to count them.
the 'gasp, i can see his/her ribs, we need to fatten him/her up' mentality is so old world its not funny. its about as good an indicator of someones overall health as judging someones intelligence by the size of their head.
also, ive often seen the serratus and pectoralis muscles confused with ribs as well. so heres a little chart illustrating the difference.
btw, the sickly girl at the bottom is kate bosworth. more unhealthy actresses can be seen at www.wwtdd.com
Acadia posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 11:19 AM
I still don't find it attractive to see bones poking through a woman's skin. And I find most female body builder bodies quite gross looking. Being fit is one thing, but looking like a man with boobs is quite another.
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
bigjobbie posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 11:27 AM
With the bodybuilders you can make the arguement that they are actually underweight and skirting being unhealthy because of the harsh dieting they do in the lead-up to a show/competition/photoshoot to get their skin to go tight to show off their guns better.
But in terms of an illustrative effect in a render you would lean towards that "Show Build" rather than that of your average regular gym visitor to underline the theme/idea of ultra-fittness/athleticism.
Cheers
Blackhearted posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 11:41 AM
...but none of the above examples look even remotely like men with boobs.
the point i am trying to make is this -- regardless of what your personal definition of 'healthy' or 'aesthetically pleasing' is, it hardly gives you the right to call someone else anorexic simply because they may have their ribs showing.
i have my own definition of healthy and aesthetically pleasing... but it doesnt mean that if i see a woman walking down the street that doesnt match my personal ideal i will call her 'fat'. thats just wrong. and in a million years i would never go and comment on someones BBW morph - or IM them - and say it is 'disgustingly fat and you should change it immediately since this type of thing is offensive doesnt belong at renderosity'. yet apparently it is perfectly acceptable the other way around. if i posted some of the comments and IMs ive gotten on some of my morphs and changed the word 'anorexic' to 'fat', i would probably be banned from renderosity in the resulting uproar.
in this day and age it is politically incorrect to even call someone 'overweight'. what irks me is the double standard, however. where if you call someone 'overweight' its a ghastly insult, yet it is perfectly acceptable for many larger people to call anyone thinner than them anorexic or unhealthy. its this imposition of ones own ideals that disturbs me.
if you notice in this entire thread i have never imposed my own ideals on anyone, i am merely trying to get people to stop the derogatory remarks against any morph that may not fit their own ideals... and to illustrate that 'anorexic' isnt a blanket term for anyone that happens to be thin.
JenX posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 11:46 AM
My personal thought? Either gender....Bodybuilders = ick. I mean, if you're comfortable that way, go for it. If you think I look ick, great. We agree that we each look ick.
Now, I look at women like Angela Bassett, and think, man, for someone with guns like she's got, she's STILL kept a feminine physique. That, I find not only healthy, but totally sexy.....I know this is going to sound weird, but, I think that breasts are one of the most beautiful things that we as women have to call our own. And, once you've worked out to the point of majorly reducing your breast size and replace them with huge pectoral muscles, that's not healthy, either. Yeah, sure, maybe you're physically fit, buff, can kick my ass....but, well, I'm still not gonna say "ooooooh, you're hot". Unless maybe you're on fire. There is a point while building muscle mass that you lose essential girly fats. Like ass and boob fat. And, in my (not very humble) opinion, that's where you get icky, too. But, yes, there are other reasons for being able to see "ribs" (even when they 're not ribs, but muscles, as you've so wonderfully pointed out), or other bones or bone groups. For example (and I'd even show a pic if I had the cord for my camera), my wrist bones stick out horribly. I currently weigh 245 lbs. (got weighed last night), and, if someone only looked at my hand and wrist, they'd think that I was unhealthily skinny, because my hands are thin and my wrist bones are actually larger than normal. It's to the point where it's uncomfortable to write without a cushion for my wrist, and where I just don't use a mouse that isn't a trackball, so I don't drag my wrist around. I'm a lardo, lol, and I even have bones that stick out! (And, don't even start with being able to tell one's weight-regarded health by their skin tone. I am the epitome of aenimicly white skin, and I'm perfectly healthy, thanks.)
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Blackhearted posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 12:31 PM
ive never found women that work out to the point that they completely lose their breasts attractive.
but women who work their pecs - with moderation - actually get firmer, higher breasts as a result since the underlying muscle tissue supports and raises them. same goes for the buttocks. working out does not necessarily mean you lose your femininity.
i think that a blanket statement saying that 'women who are into bodybuilding are not feminine' is untrue and unfair. IMO many of them overdo it and end up looking erm.. different... but thats true with males too.
but some women who are into bodybuilding know exactly when to stop and arrive at a very attractive look that is not unfeminine (IMO). not what id consider my personal ideal, but very attractive either way.
Hawkfyr posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 12:36 PM
I see the double standard you are illustrating BH.
I agree..if it was the other way around,there would be hell to pay.
“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”
bigjobbie posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 1:11 PM
Yeah, the girl in that set of pics hasn't done the bodybuilder dehydration thing to her skin - looks much better and no doubt has spent many hours earning that physique.
She reminds me most of your girl next door morph.
Cheers
Acadia posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 2:17 PM
Quote - i have my own definition of healthy and aesthetically pleasing....i would never go and comment on someones BBW morph - or IM them - and say it is 'disgustingly fat and you should change it immediately since this type of thing is offensive doesnt belong at renderosity'. yet apparently it is perfectly acceptable the other way around. if i posted some of the comments and IMs ive gotten on some of my morphs and changed the word 'anorexic' to 'fat', i would probably be banned from renderosity in the resulting uproar.
We all have our own idea of what is attractive, true.
I also agree that people shouldn't be sending you or anyone else nasty IMs about your morphs. You are the artist and you create to your ideal, for those that share the same ideal.
As I said above those that don't like your morphs, or anyone else's for that matter, should just move along and find something that fits their ideal.
Quote - in this day and age it is politically incorrect to even call someone 'overweight'. what irks me is the double standard, however. where if you call someone 'overweight' its a ghastly insult, yet it is perfectly acceptable for many larger people to call anyone thinner than them anorexic or unhealthy. its this imposition of ones own ideals that disturbs me.
I don't see a double standard. I'm on the heavy side and believe me, I hear my share of fat comments. When I was 118 pounds I also heard my share of "skinny" comments too. From my perspective there is no double standard.
Quote - if you notice in this entire thread i have never imposed my own ideals on anyone, i am merely trying to get people to stop the derogatory remarks against any morph that may not fit their own ideals... and to illustrate that 'anorexic' isnt a blanket term for anyone that happens to be thin.
Understood :)
"It is good to see ourselves as
others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we
are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not
angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to
say." - Ghandi
XENOPHONZ posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 3:14 PM
Quote - i think that a blanket statement saying that 'women who are into bodybuilding are not feminine' is untrue and unfair. IMO many of them overdo it and end up looking erm.. different... but thats true with males too.
but some women who are into bodybuilding know exactly when to stop and arrive at a very attractive look that is not unfeminine (IMO). not what id consider my personal ideal, but very attractive either way.
Many women who are heavy into bodybuilding take testosterone injections -- because without the injections, it would be impossible for those women to look the way that they look. No matter how hard they worked out.
Male bodybuilders, too are frequently into the heavy steroid use thing. Bodybuilders from a former era never looked like the "Hulk" types that we see today. Ahhhhh......the miracles of modern drug therapy......and what it can do for (read: to) you.......especially in the long term. Many of those people, both male & female, pay an extremely heavy price in their later years. As do many former pro athletes of various kinds. The human body can only take just so much long-term abuse.
[Hint: my taste most decidedly does not run to female body-builders. To be brutally frank, I think that the more extreme forms of it look freakish & deformed. Although body toning can be attractive.]
I strongly agree on the central point of this thread -- I get very weary of hearing whiny gripes about the Poser market in general being too overrun with supermodel figures. Big deal. Popular culture in general is "overrun" with real-life supermodel figures. And this state of affairs ain't going to change. Personal attractiveness has always been an inborn advantage to those who possess it. Just like an exceptionally high IQ, or a great musical talent, or super athletic abilities. Life simply isn't fair. Either learn to accept that fact -- or else live an embittered existence. Because V3-esque models & characters will ALWAYS dominate the market, so long as human nature remains.
Griping about it is a form of spitting into the wind.
Blackhearted posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 4:30 PM
agreed
in terms of this thread though, id say that most of the women who take steroids are in the 'musclebound' category -- both due tot he effects of the drug and their desire to look like that.
in terms of bodybuilding, the upper limit of what i consider attractive is the 'muscular' examples on the first post of this thread. those are highly achievable for a woman without taking steroids.
pakled posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 7:33 PM
well, when it comes to musclebound women, I'm not going to start any arguments..;)
I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit
anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)
bandolin posted Mon, 31 July 2006 at 8:24 PM
In terms of women's physique's à-la-bodybuilding there are two different worlds. There is the Women's bodybuilding which is the same as the men's bodybuilding world whereby they attempt to gain the maximum muscle mass in their category (ie: lightweight, middle, heavy etc). Arnold Schwartzenegger (male) and Cory Everson (female) were heavy weights.
Then there is the Women's fitness circuit, aerobic queens and the like, similar to BH's post above. They must demonstrate overall fitness capability and appearance. Muscle mass is not a consideration but low body fat is. This is the category that BH's GND falls into IMO.
Poser is almost strictly a hobbiest software. As a hobby you want to create beautiful things. One of my hobbies is carpentry. Although I've made some pretty ugly pieces of furniture, they are not on display in my house and eventually find their way into the fireplace.
Same goes with Poser art. In our day and age there are a few typical female forms that are considered the ideal. If we were living in the 16th C (the time of Peter Paul Rubens) there would be a lot more (what we consider today to be overweight) plump women.
Anorexia is a medical condition. But it is also a word that has fallen into the English vernacular. So, although I agree with 95% of what BH has said here, we shouldn't get our nose bent out of shape when the word anorexic is used as a superlative adjective because someone is trying to make a point.
Perhaps BH should have renamed this thread BH's Anorexia Primer...a pet peeve.
(BTW: GND is my second favourite V3 morph).
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Blackhearted posted Tue, 01 August 2006 at 7:19 AM
to be honest thats another pet peeve of mine
all of the people bitching about NVIATWAS renders, nude pinups, etc.
poser is a hobbyist app and most of the people using it are doing it for recreation.
so if they want to render nude pinups, or NVIATWAS renders, whats wrong with it? they all paid the price of admission so what they choose to do with the software should be up to them. if they are content creating NVIATWAS renders who are you to tell them they shouldnt be?
the galleries are full of literally thousands of comments like 'nice armor, but what warrior would wear that? its so laughably impractical'. erm.. who cares? tell that to every fantasy artist in the last 60 years, starting with frank frazetta. the point is that its 'fantasy art'. practicality takes a backseat :)
i dont like huge breasts. ya know, the gigantic implant type like this... but some of the breast morphs released in the past by wyrm for example actually dwarf those. the woman would not be able to stand up unassisted, without guylines holding her up. i wont comment on someones image to say 'ugh, those breasts are impossibly large and she wouldnt be able to stand up.. how impractical - you need to maker them smaller'. if the creator of the image likes them, and went out of their way to make them like that, then its their right to do so. this is their hobby and they can make whatever they want.
if someone paints pictures of iguanas dancing the polka in their free time, i might give them technical advice on oil painting, or even on iguana anatomy, but i wouldnt try to talk them out of painting them because i thought it was 'impractical' or 'not art'.
Mariana_ posted Fri, 11 August 2006 at 12:51 PM
Bh I think your women are positively gorgeous!!!
being a mother of 3 small children
I myself am a bit curvy and toting about a few extra pounds i'd like to loose, and retain a size of 12 (my body structure and anything under that would look hideous)
I think its more of the body structure that ppl look at, like me im 5'8 and well weight isnt important but if i were to go below a size 12 ppl would think me sickly as i am just not built to be a tiny little thing. its genetics. All the women in my family are healthily curvy. Some like it some dont.
-shrugs-
Lampy posted Sat, 12 August 2006 at 12:51 PM
Interesting read. I have one question. How can a Poser 3D model have an eating disorder? BH's figures are what they are. If you like them buy them. Ifyou don't liked them don't buy them but don't forget they are not human. They can not have an eating disorder.