Just wondering what the current word is on any NEW FEMALE figures for Poser? It has been years and we are STILL working with V3 and S3. Is DAZ ever going to do anything at all or simply wait until they are FORCED to do something? Are they having money or designer issues? Just wondering because PCs are more and more powerful every year. I have 2GB of memory and 1 terabyte of storage just sitting and waiting. Right now, I'm just bored working with V3/S3 and thought surely there would be some fantastic NEW female figures out by now.

If anyone has any info or details please reply. I just hope something will happen soon because the market is stagnent as far as new figures go.

Jeff

Development on: Mac Pro 2008, Duel-Boot OS - Snow Leopard 10.6.6 & Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, 2 x 2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon , 10GB 800 MHz DDR2 RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT.

I got bored with the millenium figures ages ago, thats why I moved over to to the efrontier line, they have a new range of male figures coming, which look really great.  not sure what they are doing with the femme figures.  I really like Miki though, she has some joint issues but is a very naturalistic figure.

John

Fugazi (without the aid of a safety net)

https://www.facebook.com/Fugazi3D

Have you tried G1 (Gloria 1.0). She is beautiful !

Plus3D
My freebies at Renderosity - CLICK HERE :)

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1169154&member

Here's a new one I'm familiar with. She will debut in Maya with weight mapping and a skin 12,000x4000. Thereabouts. A splined back perhaps.. Tendons and muscle deformers... Here's a link to her new cage (old pic). It will be a high res mesh for deformations. Totally new concepts in some areas... She will be heavy but she will do amazing things...

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2659370         Cage/Maya

The same cage will be boned by me for Poser. JCM's to handle deformations, I hope. Not as pretty and not as heavy as the Maya version but, with plenty of FBMs. I've enclosed a pic of a practice run on the original mesh muscles. Just an example of a FBM that may be possible. Fine details I hope to achieve with displacement maps and keep the mesh lighter...

This will be in testing this fall, I hope. She will be like no other. And she will bend like no other.

Parthius/richardson

3DNeo,

     Have you tried Aiko 3 or Jessi/Glamorous Jessi?  If you don't like Aiko's head, there is a way of replacing it with Victoria 3's or Stephanie 3's head.  There's a lot of nice clothes available for Aiko, free and pay.  Jessi/Glamorous Jessi is more of a challenge, but excellent results are possible.

Thanks for the replies so far. I should've said that I was ONLY interested in realistic renderings so that rules out some of the others like Aiko and such. I am looking for something that goes WELL beyond current V3/S3 figures capable of doing. Their rigging just is not that good for some poses, like sitting in extreme positions, leg bends, etc. Also, I'm wanting more realism in my figures. The PC tech has been there for a good while now as my system specs are WAY beyond what is now on the market.

Just hoping for other designers to bring some NEW realistic figures that will blow V3/S3 way away. Hopefully it will be more than just talk and happen soon.

Jeff

Development on: Mac Pro 2008, Duel-Boot OS - Snow Leopard 10.6.6 & Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, 2 x 2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon , 10GB 800 MHz DDR2 RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT.

Aiko can be realistic, especially if you swap heads with V3 or S3.  Except for her shoulders which cut into her back, she bends a lot better than V3 does.

 

 

Uzilite's JAL:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2553312

Seraphira's Kaimira:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2629853

Spanki:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1010403&member

 

Papa:

Yes, I have seen those, but the Spaki one is basically just updated morphs for the V3 head I was told awhile back. The Kaimira figure and others have been in the works for over a year or more now. One can only believe a new figure when it actually is released because there have been talk and teases for a LONG time now. However, nothing ever comes to market. Yes, I know it takes time and a lot of work, I'm just making general statements of talk of NEW female figures has been just that for a very long time now. Hopefully at least one or two will eventually make it to market in the next 6 months. One can hope. :)

Jeff

Development on: Mac Pro 2008, Duel-Boot OS - Snow Leopard 10.6.6 & Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, 2 x 2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon , 10GB 800 MHz DDR2 RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT.

I'm begining to feel the desperate need to get away from all the Vickies this is some great stuff.

:biggrin:

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things

I'm working on making a remapped version of  Traveler's Eve4 to take Vicky 2 textures.  Cloned with NEA's head, or even as a retextured version of Stahlratte's Evelyn, it should offer some renewed possibilities. 
Whether this helps or not, I don't know, but it should be nice.
David P. Hoadley

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

The one thing that is needed, IMO, is a figure that can take a greater range of positions without deforming badly. V3 is streets ahead of V1-2, Posette, Eve etc in that regard, but still rather lacking.

But I would also suggest it should be essential for a new figure to be able to use the large amount of materials (textures, clothes) that are out there. I'm really not interested in buying everything twice over to support a new figure.

if you look at that pic, the spanki figure has folds at the waist that v3 never does.  everything i've seen and read has pointed to spanki creating a unique, non-daz based character with an emphasis on realistic joints and bending.  but maybe i misunderstood.

edited to add: in fact, the caption of the picture says:
"Figure modelled, grouped and UV-mapped in Cinema 4D, rigged in Poser, textured by Fatale and [spanki]."

so not v3.

Do not forget, that there is also Elle by Neftis, Farris by Kirwyn, and PHFemale by Sixus1Media.  I have and use all of them.  I really like using different ranges of figures, as it is way to easy to see a render and tell that it is V3 in a canned pose. -Starkdog

What I'm most interested in is a more REALISTIC figure that goes well beyond current ones such as V3/S3. My PC is well beyond what has been in use for Poser figures for some time now. I'm looking for better rigging and more human realism in my figures. PC's become more and more powerful each passing year, yet there is a fundimental lack of development in the Poser community for NEW figures to keep pace. Personally we should be on V5/S5 by now so that's what is so darn frustrating. I just hope someone can take the market by storm and make a truly HIGH-END female figure for Poser sometime soon since nothing ever changes for years.

Jeff

Development on: Mac Pro 2008, Duel-Boot OS - Snow Leopard 10.6.6 & Windows 7 Ultimate 64bit, 2 x 2.8 GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon , 10GB 800 MHz DDR2 RAM, NVIDIA GeForce 8800GT.

You might be able to load one ultra-high-end figure, but frankly, I hit resource problems with just three V3 figures loaded together.

Quote - Papa:

Yes, I have seen those, but the Spaki one is basically just updated morphs for the V3 head I was told awhile back. The Kaimira figure and others have been in the works for over a year or more now. One can only believe a new figure when it actually is released because there have been talk and teases for a LONG time now. However, nothing ever comes to market. Yes, I know it takes time and a lot of work, I'm just making general statements of talk of NEW female figures has been just that for a very long time now. Hopefully at least one or two will eventually make it to market in the next 6 months. One can hope. :)

...as cobaltsdream mentions above, my model is not based on V3 in any way - it's a new model.  As for whether/when she might ever be released... I have no news on that.

Actually, I think Daz has done some great work over the years, considering what they have to work with. V3 bends better than V2, S3 bends better than V3 and Aiko (arguably) bends better than S3, so they've made good efforts in that regard.

The problem is that they are still running into limits imposed on them by the Poser rigging system.  Barring some 'outside-the-box' solutions with clever rigging (which ie. Anton might have achieved with Apollo (I don't own it, so I can't say)), they have to rely more and more on JCMs, which some end-users and 3rd party developers will bash them for.

So I don't think your critera stated above will really be satisfied without changes within Poser itself.

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

Spanki, I thought you had a thread talking about the process of making your figure, but couldn't find it as I didn't remember her name.  I thought she also popped up during a discussion of A-pose vs. T-pose modelling.

i want to say that i'd rather have a character that poses great and has only dynamic clothes than a figure with mediocre joints and lots of conforming clothes that also bend poorly.

I'm mildly surprised that nobody has mentioned V4 in this thread -- at least not directly.  Supposedly she's coming.  I'm not sure when.  Hopefully soon.

Perhaps in sequence with the release of P7.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Xeno, so little is known about V4 except for the fact that she might be released next month.  I wouldn't hold your breath for P7 coming any time soon...

I'd say that V4 will be the one to watch -- that figure, and the market's reaction to it,  will define a lot about where the overall Poser market is headed. 

As for P7: it'll come when it comes.  I'm already planning on parting with some cash to upgrade to Vue 6I -- and I've got enough going on with Lightwave to keep me busy otherwise.  So I'll wait on P7 for as long as it takes.  But I'm still looking forward to it's release.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

LOL...I totally agree with you about V3.  I'm laughing at all these posts where people are saying they don't want another figure.  When V4 comes out, she's going to take over.

Quote - When V4 comes out, she's going to take over.

That's certainly possible, but I wouldn't bank on it. Wait until your chickens are hatched ...

nakamuram

So how do you replace Aiko´s head with another figures head?

Is there a tutorial..?

I know some ways to do that but the result usually isn´t satisfying.

Attached Link: http://www.philc.net/freestuff.htm

rofocale,

I had a swap heads tutorial, but Kamilche wrote a python script called "Shapeshifter" to swap the heads of Unimesh Figures.  It is available at PhilC's website.  Click on the link and scroll to the bottom of the page.

nakamuram...Domo Arigato!

Denada y Rotsa Ruck!!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2335336&page=1

> Quote - Spanki, I thought you had a thread talking about the process of making your figure, but couldn't find it as I didn't remember her name.  I thought she also popped up during a discussion of A-pose vs. T-pose modelling.

Hi PBM,

I've been fairly vague about her name :).  I think the thread you're thinking of is this one.

Cinema4D Plugins (Home of Riptide, Riptide Pro, Undertow, Morph Mill, KyamaSlide and I/Ogre plugins) Poser products Freelance Modelling, Poser Rigging, UV-mapping work for hire.

Who was it who predicted a year or so ago that James and Jessi would dominate the market and V3 would be largely forgotten? 

I don't mind people getting excited by a new figure and the associated possibilities (Rikishi is supercool) but this person was very high-handed and very insulting to people who disagreed with them.

Miki seems to be vastly more popular than Jessi but even she ain't no V3...I think a V4 would have the best chance of toppling V3 off the throne, but it must surely be a hard battle even then...

Maybe V3 will dominate until the kinds of changes needed in Poser are made to allow a true passing of the crown? (I think nearly everyone will buy V4, but wouldn't V3 still be the easiest to use in terms of setting up a render and costume etc)

Cheers

 

Quote - Who was it who predicted a year or so ago that James and Jessi would dominate the market and V3 would be largely forgotten?  

That thought also crossed my mind ... and it's not as if e-frontier didn't have V3 and M3 to learn from, either.

apparently there was discussion about V4 at the artzone a few weeks ago from the featured Chat, speakers Dan Farr and Chris Creek. They spoke about a few of the new features that V4 will entail. I wasn't at the featured chat, so I wouldn't know what V4 new features will be, but I wouldn't be too surprised if many are pleased by the new upgrade designs to it.

I don't think there will be much discussion about it either till "it's" arrival. No pun intended considering she can turn into Michael in V3. LOL!  Just a lot of speculation or guessing or hoping what the new features will be.

It was hardly predicted that James and Jessi would take over.  Rather it was hoped that they would be sufficiently developed to be viable alternatives to unimesh.  While they are useful and interesting characters, they do not have nearly the same level of innovation.

As irritated as I have been with the unimesh, it has been a rather novel and innovative development in the poser world.  From Dan's chat, it was mentioned that V4 will have high and low res versions, a V3 clothing fit, new hands, feet, & muscle groups.

Quote - From Dan's chat, it was mentioned that V4 will have high and low res versions, a V3 clothing fit, new hands, feet, & muscle groups.

V-e-r-y sensible. These guys at Daz ain't stupid.

Heheh, that was the memorable insanity of it: that person did actually make a formal prediction of "this time next year" or words to that effect. It stuck with me because I knew with the nature of forums you should be able to quote them a year on and rub their noses in it (only because they were so snotty about it though - like I said, I get the whole new-figure infatuation thing).

If only I could remember who it was...

I think they had a sig that was all:

 : : (person's name) : :

Weird dots and I think all caps on the name? Haven't seen it for a while so maybe they split before the year's prediction was proven wrong, ha!

Cheers

If Jessi was more normal (body similar to Miki and head less alien-shaped), and she and James had been rigged properly, there may have been a slight chance they could have "taken over".

... and if they could have used V3 textures/clothes.

Have you guys seen this (Make Human Project): http://www.dedalo-3d.com/index.php Free open source figure creation tool. If you have a modeling program, you can come up with some neat figures that are a departure from V3, A3, etc.

Have you guys seen this (Make Human Project): http://www.dedalo-3d.com/index.php

This has been pretty tightly tied to the Blender world and haven't checked them out in awhile, but they seem to be moving forward impressively.

Quote - ... and if they could have used V3 textures/clothes.

Actually, no. Every figure I've seen that can wear V3 clothes looks so much like Vicki (and usually without much, if any, improvement) that I ask myself "why would someone bother to do this?". The answer is probably "because the Poser community (thinks that it) wants it", although people who ask for this type of thing in new figures are being dishonest with themselves.

Why is is this self-defeating dishonesty? Well, look what has happened to the figures released so far that wear V3 clothes...crickets chirping...

What needs to happen for any new figure(s) to really take off is more of a community effort at the beginning than anything else, and the figure(s) should NOT resemble V3/M3/etc or wear their clothes (without conversion through something like PhilC's WW, at least). They should, however, be realistic looking (like the CP figures, but with better rigging).

If all you want is a new head, there are a few of those around, and they seem to have actually done better in the long run than complete V3-clones have.

For any entirely new figures to succeed, there will need to be plenty of supporting content available at release, if not actually bundled with the figure. Look at Rikishi:

Looks like M3? no
Rigged to do gymnastics? no
Does he need to be? no
Comes with plenty of free content to give him a good start? yes
Sold like hotcakes? yes

On the other hand, look at Apollo Maximus, who sold quite well, but could have sold even more if he had been priced lower (and yes, I do know that Anton priced him that way for sound reasons). He sold as well as he did because he was a great value for the money, and was one of the few truly innovative figures. Notice he also didn't resemble any of the DAZ figures or wear their clothes.

What will have to happen is for either several merchants to collaborate on such a project for several months, or for a similar effort from modelers and figure creators within the community (either aside from the merchants, or including merchants who are willing to have the figure be free with the idea that the amount of readily available content will bring sales). All of these other one-off figures are going nowhere.

V4 is the one to watch.  She'll point out the direction -- one way or the other.

shrug  Until some stop listening to the "I hate perfect supermodels!" and "I want to see more 'ordinary' figures !" vocalizing -- and take a look at what actually sells; as opposed to what some claim should sell......until that happens:

Victoria in her various incarnations will continue to drive the market.  An example for everyone else to envy.  Sure: other figures can sell well.  "Well" being a relative term.  But in V3 territory?  No.  Not even close.  And there's no big mystery as to why.

Not until they are dragged.......kicking and screaming.........into admitting to the Big Secret.  The Big (and darkly mysterious) Secret being that attractive female models will always outsell all of the others by wide margins.  And that stuff made for attractive female models will outsell the rest, too.

That's one prediction that can be made with 100% accuracy.  The only way to beat Victoria would be to 'out-Victoria' Victoria.......not to offer a komquat on the theory that everyone really ought to like komquats.  Victoria will continue to laugh all of the way to the bank.  And I don't blame her.

We'll see what V4 looks like.  I'll pick her up just as soon as she's available.  Most other Poser addicts will, too -- but they probably won't talk about it much in the forums.  You'll be more likely to see the results in the galleries.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"Komquat"...I love that word...

Yeah V3 is the star, all the others are supporting cast I guess...some are brilliant "character actors"...

Cheers

My only wish is that some time in the 'V' series they will release a cage version of the Vicky mesh. So that those of us who use other apps to render her would be able to use her more efficiently.  Right now i have to deal with a 70k poly mesh that is a b**** to manipulate/render or get by with a low quality low rez alternative. A 10-15k mesh that has the same sorta morphs and nice topology would not only look nicer in the apps i use (after making it a SubD) but also render much faster for me. Poser has a smooth mesh feature too now doesnt it ? If so it would also benefit i think.

Ah well one can hope...

What about the current reduced resolution versions? I find them quite handy in Vue.

As someone said earlier - V4 will come in 3 versions - one being a SubD-ready version. Poser has always had a smoothing function but not actual subD - so a higher-rez mesh was necessary for morphing and general sihouette smoothness.

...see if I can upload the V4 hi-rez head preview pic:

 

 

 

Here's the V4 Reduced Rez preview...this might be the SubD version also? not sure as only 2 pics were posted at Artzone apparently.

Cheers

have to disagree with your notion of  "supermodelness" is why vicky sells.  she sells because she's the norm.  she sells because of the circular model of the market - everyone buys vicky because all the content is for her, and all the content is for her because everyone buys vicky.  after vicky who are the most popular figures (as far as i can tell from galleries, merchandise, etc.)? the specialized and petite aiko and the ordinary looking miki.  and miki has what, 1/100th the support of v3?  but is still highly prominent in the galleries?  even aiko trails v3, and she's got a lot of support.

if anything, i'd have to say that the ordinary look sells better due to how well miki does.  after all, her looks is just about all she has on v3.  it's certainly not joints or morphs that sell her.  it certainly isn't cost since v3 is now free.  it sure as hell isn't merchant or freebie support- v3 wins that hands down as i mentioned.  if you were right, products like rikishi, miki and koji wouldn't even be on the map, let alone as popular as they are.

i mean, come on, when most merchants explicitly announce that they're going to support v4 when she comes out, and when daz has a history of pairing with artists for a 20 and 30 product launch, what do you think is going to happen?    i know i bought v3 with an expectation that the community would support her as they did  v2.   that i could wait months to buy a texture because free ones would be released immediately.  that i could wait to buy clothes because there would also be free clothes.  and i was right.

one reason apollo sold as well as he did was the flexibility he came packaged with and the initial support of several key merchants.

i would be willing to put money down that any female figure that has

• Decent realism
• Good expressions
• Full facial and body morph capability
• Support from all the following merchants: Capsces, ElorOnceDark, Aery Soul, Luthbel, Morris, ExprssnImg, Shahara, Lourdes, Thorne, Sarsa, Mada, Blackhearted, Quarker, Posermatic, BATLAB, idler168, hongyu and AprilYSH

would more than give vicky a run for her money.  but even though i've only named 18 merchants out of the hundreds out there, i'm pretty sure only one figure presently fits the bill.  there are other permutations for success, but basically, if enough popular merchants do quality work for a figure, it will become popular.  even with gumby shoulders, bent straw arms, thighs that flatten when sitting, mediocre expressions, and almost no ability to acheive true supermodel thinness (excluding jim burtons add-ons which are basically new figures).  vicky's built like an amazon with a huge chest, broad shoulders and a wide body, not the clothes hangers supermodels are.

But you're just describing another Daz/V3 situation - not a real alternative. And any new company coming into the market and duplicating the DAZ mode of doing business isn't going to have the DAZ track record of product support behind them - Apollo is a case in point - he lasted a year before being yanked away: so much for an M3 alternative.

Unless big guys like 3D Max or Maya released a cheap hobbyist version of their software tomorrow with included super-rigged figures and 100 pieces of clothing each, textures etc etc with advanced, but easy to use, posing functions and a content store to support it all you're always going to be dealing with the DAZ business model and the limitations of Poser itself as a determining factor in the marketplace. Because DAZ has D|S in development there's always a chance they'll pull something really amazing out of the bag with one of their new figures.

I'd argue the supermodel thing too - from the art here and elsewhere - hobbyist 3D artists WANT big Amazon girls not sickly little Kate Moss clones or the more lanky supermodel types. The want Valjello (sp?) and Royo type Fantasy-Art girls. And as someone else said, it's more the vocal minority clamouring for "real" looking girls - which is probably more indicative of them wanting to get their poser art away from the "stock" look, which I can fully understand.

Cheers

The fact that we eat more MacBurgers than broccoli does not mean MacBurgers are better, or that we should shut up and eat more of them. CobaltDream hits the nail on the head. People buy crappy fuel-guzzling cars because that's what the car makers sell. And they support Vickie because she is the fries and diluted Coke of 3D. And she is designed to support soft-core wet dreams of randy Victorians, who are shuffling around and panting somewhere in the back of every American male mind.

That said, I like the looks of V4. No doubt I will buy her during the initial ludicrous, market-annihilating sale, and maybe I'll use her, though it took more than a year for me to find a reason to switch from SP3 and Judy to V3 for even a single project. One reason I expect to buy her is that it looks likely that e-F will fails to improve Jessi and Miki as throughly as they seem to have missed the mark with the G2 men, and I doubt if Anton will have come out of his sulk and build an Aphrodite as fine as Apollo.

And it's "kumquat," not "komquat."

M

Attached Link: http://www.komquat.com/

If it attempts to go up against Victoria by being "ordinary" -- then it's a komquat.

Yes, yes......Victoria is Victorian.......that's all a given.  And anyone who produces Victorian renders is clearly suspect.  After all: they might be male or something.  And that's bad.  Maleness = childishness.  Or perhaps maleness = evil.  That's the PC formula structure of the day.  If you happen to buy into such......uh..........Victorian-envy thinking...........

Quote - she sells because of the circular model of the market - everyone buys vicky because all the content is for her

Yes -- I've heard this type of circular reasoning put forth before.  It goes something like this:  "If only more suppliers would provide baboon meat for the public markets, then the public's appetite for baboon meat would really take off!!!!!" 

However it's done, the results will always be the same.  And that's yet another prediction of utterly startling & stunning insight made with 100% accuracy.

Keep trying it.  And keep right on eating Victoria's dust.  Some must find it tasty - because that's what they always end up doing.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

V3 dominates because the support is already existing and the interest is already established.  Despite whatever innovation the developer may have put into the figure, it's success is really dependent upon support from other merchants as it demonstrates that a market exists.  Poser merchants have not been willing to risk having a monopolized support for 3rd party figures because they haven't had to.  V3 products sell well enough that they don't have to support other figures in order to make an income in the poser business.

Victoria, in all her incarnations, has succeeded because she is a brand, a la Barbie, J.Lo and the Olsen Twins.  Whether V4, V5, or V99 are compatible with previous versions is irrelevant as the name "Victoria" represents a stable and reliable market.  (This could be where CL/EF has failed in the past by re-naming their figures with every new version of Poser). 

My issue has always been that everyone has to start somewhere.  In the past, there has been a lot of naysayers even before a figure is released to the public.  I just find it interesting that this time it's with V4 and not a 3rd party figure...

I am not going to kid myself. I will buy V4 when she comes out. I'm quite looking forward to her. I just hope she has a killer male morph pack :)

Quote - I just find it interesting that this time it's with V4 and not a 3rd party figure...

Actually, V4 is a 3rd-party figure.

If some other 3rd party ever comes out with something better than Victoria -- something TRULY better -- not just called "better" by some because DAZ didn't make it........

*........*if a another 3rd party ever does that: then all bets are off.  But this hypothetical 3rd party will never best Victoria's clout by producing the greatest male model ever made.  The public's tastes are what they are.

Great pictures, bigjobbie.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Well if those pix are accurate then consider this guy as another 'run to buy when it comes out' customer ! Cause at first glance that mesh seems much better then what there is currently in V3, and i would love to use it.

As for the whole 1st party/3rd party/better product thing, i agree with XENO...  I see these occasional spikes for other figures, like recently for that gloria one, but frankly there is no lasting interest. At least not enough to make creating high end products for them a feasible idea. Cause Poser users generally get bored with stuff quite easily and it's quite possible that by the time you make a nice product for a figure, no one will want to buy it anymore cause they'v moved on to the next new thing. Only 'V' remains one of the few constants, mainly because a) DAZ push it very aggressively (like that free base mesh thing) and b) it was the first to the market in a time when we had the over stylized P3/P4 fems. Plus the amount of detail in her bosom surely helps sell her as well :P

again, it's really simple.  name one figure besides v3 that has the merchant support i listed.  but neither miki nor aiko "eat her dust."  for that matter, apollo didn't if anton was honest when he said he sold thousands ( a quote from early in apollo's short life on the market).  they all do really well, especially considering the gap in support.    heck, look at the reaction to gloria.  she doesn't even come with a mouth that opens, let alone full morphs.  she's had just about no marketing, and even with the recent boom trails vicky by miles in support.  but she's popular now.  and then there's the popularity of the recent sumo model.  looking at all of these figures shortcomings, and daz's incredible marketing efforts and how many products they buy, and their relative popularity compared to v3, i'd have to say quite the opposite.  that the market is starved for something different, but keeps getting more of the same.

different than vicky isn't baboon meat.  it's wanting more to your diet than mac & cheese everyday.

the only figures i've seen fail are the ones that try to play the same game (or are simply not good enough - by miles).  no one needs vicky knock-offs.

this community is merchant driven.   people buy more than they can use, because merchants keep coming out with stuff that looks cool.  when they stop coming out with cool stuff for a figure, people walk away.

but like i said, it's circular.  it's also a matter of belief.   it's a lot of things, none of which have anything to do with how v3 actually looks and everything to do with the market.

V3 is more the Meat and 3 Veg of the poser world...she has more nutritional value than a big mac or nasty macaroni and cheese.

I think it's fine that the market has a "standard" figure that other figures can be judged against, be they inferior or superior or be an exotic alternative. It provides a stable "middleground" for merchants to venture out from at the very least. 

It's better that than a mad scramble with each new figure that comes out to exploit that window of interest (or lay a bet against continuing popularity) - is it even a sure thing that if Daz or Vicki was absent from the marketplace that there would be any sort of dominant figure at all (let alone a marketplace to support the level of new figures we DO see these days)?

Cheers

 

sorry, i don't see much "nutritional value" (i like that term) in v3.  if it weren't for her 3rd party add-ons, i'd never glance at her.  actually, (imo) they're the cheese, v3 is just the plain bleached noodles.  and i think the "standard" figure helps lend to the lack of diversity in poser work, which in turn feeds a fairly negative external view of poser work, even outside of cgsociety.  and i don't see a difference in a mad scamble to get a new figure compared to the mad scramble to get the new vicky add-on from one of the merchants i mentioned (or a few other most popular merchants).  except that one ends up with at least a possibility of diversity, and the other ends up with more of the same (unless it's a really stellar morph set).  that said, i can see your point.  that is, i can see why merchants would value the stability (in other words, everybody buying and using the same stuff).  i don't so much myself (see above for negative view of poser artists' creativity), but it probably makes merchants more money (which is very good).  it certainly is easier for merchants if they can count on their product selling, and almost anything skimpy or skintight for v3 will sell.

then again, maybe not, since the dominance of daz has meant they could leverage two things to drive their sales besides the v3 feedback loop: low prices and aggressive marketing.  hence the prevalence of terms like "dazaholics" and statements like "i'm broke, but i saved tons."  if apollo had come out when v2 was first released, i doubt anyone would have said anything about the price.   on the other hand, people can keep reusing levius' photos and merchant resources to make tons of permutations of v3 textures, so i guess the change in the market more than evens out.  ;)

Dog Years:

Well if you've seen the V3-Male morph set you could say Apollo did make an appearance back then - Anton did both and the family resemblance is striking heheh. Anyway, I think it's a bit unfair to be judging V3 by today's standards and in comparison to Apollo (because maybe we wouldn't have those standards without V3 being there to set them originally - and in Poser/CG/Computer Tech years she's ancient!).

The first taste is with the eye:

There's no doubt Apollo is the better figure technically - but lacked a certain "something" in his default appearance that the wider buying collective didn't take to (my arguement is that Anton should've sold him with a "fake default" pretty-boy face to get that impulse-purchase sales element). Myself and many others obviously didn't care about that realising that any number of cool and original-looking character were a mere few dial-twiddles away.

The make-art button:

I think that enough can't be said for a "standard" figure and it's importance to the marketplace though - something your average or beginner user can pick up and run with straight away and start getting something that looks a little like their favourite sort of art...

Fancy pants:

Mind you I've been using M2 alot lately for a job because he can wear all the old Poserstyle period clothing (WW tends to mung them up too much), so I guess when Poser gets it's coding fixed and D|S goes super-serious and things like  "universal dynamic one-click clothing" is implemented (in that any complex clothing mesh can be draped without crashing etc) the fight will be truly on between figures with superior bending/posing abilities rather than their impressive one-click wardrobe.

I'd rather play video games:

I think that "one click" aspect can't be over-estimated as a market force also. Like WW is a work of genius but I'm still more likely to swap a head than a costume to get a look I'm after than take the time to do a sweet conversion...

Cheers

Sorry, but demand isn't "caused" by the readily available supply of something.  There's an awful lot of beetles to be had -- but the demand for commercial supplies of them is somewhat limited.

Marketing folks know what sells.  If a fortune could be made by offering Apollo add-ons to the market at large: then believe me -- we'd see a ton of Apollo offerings spring up overnight.

BTW - in the real world, it seems that I've heard a statistic that the ratio of women's clothing stores vs. men's clothing stores is something like 4-to-1.  Although I personally have a hard time believing that it's not actually more like 7-to-1.  I suppose that the clothing manufacturers just don't realize that they could drastically increase the demand for men's clothes by making lots more of them for sale.  Someone should contact all of the marketing departments of the various clothing manufacturer's and inform them of their mistake.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

um, yeah, right.  women are just biologically predisposed to like clothes.  it has nothing at all to do with marketing and socialization.

if all the forces marshalled to marketing to women were used on men, yeah, the demand would be there.   but since all the marketing forces (including hollywood and mtv) won't, it won't happen.

again, it's about quality and popularity.  someone comes out with something well designed that looks good, and people want it. from designer clothes for babies to silly little scooters to pet rocks for god's sake.  or ipods.   if only the people who had had walkmen or other portable music players in the first place (people with the demand) had bought ipods, apple wouldn't have made much money.  most people bought not only the ipod, but as was pointed out to me in a talk on marketing, but the nano, a smaller, less functional version of the ipod.  existing ipod users lined up around the block to buy them.   because they existed and were deemed "cool." 

everything i've ever read of marketing, in fact or in fiction, has focused on the fact that it's about creating demand and convincing people they need something.  not passively waiting for someone to want something, then giving that to them. 

in poserdom, demand is caused by availability, product quality and decent marketing.  if it weren't, and people only bought what they wanted before the items came out and what they could (and will) use, the markets would close due to lack of income.   poser users in this community consume far more than they use.  hence the common problem of buying an item twice and that of finding that something had been purchased but never installed and then forgotten.  if there was a true initial demand, people wouldn't forget about something as soon as they acquire it so frequently.

and tons of merchants did make stuff for apollo.  and anton said he sold over a thousand  copies.  since i've heard the active poser community's numbers as only a couple or so thousand (though i don't know where that comes from, people have stated it with authority) and assuming that's true, that's a huge saturation for an independent party male product.

i stand by my statement.  if those merchants all support a figure, i'd be willing to bet that the figure will do well.  if in addition, another 20 of the most popular merchants support a figure, it's a slam dunk.  but only if all of them do it.  otherwise, people will become hopeful and only a few will buy the cool new  stuff for the cool new figure.   and then when they see support drop off, everyone will lose interest.

actually it's probably just a bias that keeps marketers from hitting men hard in the area of clothes.  when the tobacco industry saturated the asian male market but had almost none of the female market, they deliberately poured money into creating the demand among women.  they did the same in this country, but much earlier. both campaigns were highly successful.  but those foolish marketers, they tried to sell what they wanted to sell instead of what was demanded.  if they followed your advice, they would have been billions poorer but so much more wise.  someone should tell them what a mistake they made.

Cigarettes are a product which sell themselves to certain people.  Much like V3.  There's a demand: so there's an industry which supplies that demand.  And sure: you can lure people to some extent with advertising.  But advertising only goes just so far.  You can advertise the proverbial baboon meat all day long -- but it ain't ever gonna sell.

There's a reason why the vast majority of grocery-store mass market magazine covers feature pictures of attractive young women.  Both the magazines intended for men and the magazines intended for women do this.  And there's also a reason why the Poser market looks like it does.  A reason that's got nothing to do with an insufficient supply of clothing for Apollo or M3........or for Matt & Maddie.

The matter is so obvious as to be a truism.  Sort of like the world being round.

I recall certain vegan groups not too long ago staging protests demanding that fast-food outlets like McDonald's start offering veggie burgers on their menus.  It was suggested to them that if there was such a demand for veggie burgers, then they needed to open up a chain of restaurants selling them.  No one took up the idea & ran with it.  Or at least if they did: we've never heard anything more about them.

Don't get me wrong: there's a need for clothing for M3 and the others.  It's just that it'll never sell at anything like the level that Victoria's clothing does.  Sorry.....but some truisms are true.  Opposing circular arguments notwithstanding.  Chicken & egg type arguments - which came first, the demand or the supply?  I'd submit that 99 times out of 100 -- it's the demand.

2000 Poser users, no matter how addicted, wouldn't be a sufficient number to keep this small industry alive.  Trust me -- there are far, far, FAR more than 2000.  And most of them have Victoria in their runtimes.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

well, i think this kind of ends it.  because i just disagree, and i don't think we'll come to any resolution.  i'd say that 99.9% of the time it's about marketing.  before marketing, tobacco was used occassionally and religiously by people in the americas.  after marketing, it's an addiction. 

and the whole reason the tobacco industry had turned to asian women was because they had hit an above 90% saturation level with men (i think it was actually 99%).  not so much "certain kinds of people."  

but this is just more of me (and you) stating the same things over and over. 

and um, i would bet that poser users are an entirely different market than what i was talking about.  i was speaking of the active purchasing community.  if you want to talk poser users, i'd bet on a minority of people having victoria (though i'd be loathe to place money down).  i've watched about 5 years of the same class being taught where one of the software items learned by students was poser.  many continue  to use it after the class.   every single student i've shown poser products and communties has been turned off by the style and content of the artwork and products (commercial and free), and all have used the default figures.  none were interested in the slightest in frequenting any poser sites, let alone buying anything.  i'm sure tons of people learn poser or come across it for various reasons and either don't get into content collection or don't buy anything at all.

heck, i showed someone at work the free figures available- he was looking for meshes for someone else to bone to do some animations.  he wasn't interested in any of the daz or free zygote human meshes, and instead went with a custom built one.  it wasn't better but it was different.

as for the 2000 people number - don't know what to tell you.  next time i see someone quote that, i'll point them to you.  i think i've seen people who quote that number (that and 3000) mention surveys and have some sort of background knowledge, but it could just be a myth perpetuating through the community (i've seen it several times).  everything i've witnessed, however, indicates that all the figures i've mentioned have a surprisingly large portion of the market and they only thing they have is a different look.

and many products in general live and die by their support.

Any addictive substance (e.g. tobacco) has to have some sort of an allure to it in order to be addictive.  People don't become addicted to smoking sawdust.  No matter how heavily sawdust is advertised to them as a cool smoke.

I'll venture another prediction.  One year from today, the "Victoria of the moment" (V4?) will be dominating the market.  Ten years from today the same.  Assuming that the world hasn't fallen apart by then.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

well, that's an easy prediction to make.  i never said that wasn't true.  but here's another: if none of the merchants i listed made v4 products, if no merchants said they would support v4, and v4 received no non-daz support, she wouldn't be the standard. 

it has absolutely nothing at all to do with how vicky looks.  it has to do with her being the best supported figure.  as long as everyone believes she's the most popular, she will be.

and that allure you mentioned is created by marketing.  most everyone's first experience with tobacco is unpleasant and involves choking and coughing.  and smoking sawdust isn't any more foolish than other things we do because we're sold on it.

The allure of tobacco comes from several intangible factors:  it's "forbidden fruit" (always very enticing to people); it proves that one is an "adult"; it proves that one is "independent" (ha, ha); some consider it to be stylish; some actually like the taste (ugh); some actually like the smell (ugh); it serves as an adult pacifier; it's a nervous habit; once hooked, nicotine is physically addictive........and so forth.  Smoking sawdust is none of these things.  And no amount of advertising will convince anyone that it is.

The allure of "Forbidden fruit", "coolness", and "independence" can easily overcome the initial coughing fits involved in smoking.......to the later sorrow of many.  Allure isn't always a good thing -- often it's just the bait covering the hook underneath.

The merchants will support V4 because they know that items created for V4 will sell.  And it's all because of the intrinsic allure of the thing itself.  Not because of the ready supply of items.

Why doesn't someone try opening up a store which sells nothing but items for so-called "3rd party" figures?  They should make a mint.......if certain thinking actually applies.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

all of those aspects you mentioned are marketing.  tobacco unmarketed was none of those things.  

you talk like all these things are inherent properties instead of social and cultural constructs largely built by companies needing to sell a product.

people marketed rocks as pets.  twice in the last century.

and it would only work if merchants worked together (for whatever reason, there's no incentive to now), not "someone".  as i've said from the beginning, if the 20 or 40 most popular merchants support a figure, it will do well.  but it would take that many of the most popular, not one or two lone merchants.  so please don't bring up the lone merchant scenario yet again.  i can't see anyone or any circumstance inciting such universal support, but i wouldn't say it's impossible.

me, i have no idea what will happen in the future so i wouldn't bet.  maybe eF will be acquired and poser will be dicontinued altogether.  maybe some programmers we don't even know about will revolutionize 3d character creation, posing and rigging.  maybe one of the big players in 3d will see this as an untapped market, move in and take over.  a year might be a safe bet, but i wouldn't go further than that.

and just to say, i'm stopping now (or mean to).  before i was biding time, but now i'm just not getting stuff done. 

it was fun disagreeing entirely with you.  i wish you well.

Quote - me, i have no idea what will happen in the future so i wouldn't bet.  maybe eF will be acquired and poser will be dicontinued altogether.  maybe some programmers we don't even know about will revolutionize 3d character creation, posing and rigging.  maybe one of the big players in 3d will see this as an untapped market, move in and take over.  a year might be a safe bet, but i wouldn't go further than that.

And maybe the Middle East will explode into a general war and make all of this a moot point.  Hey -- look on the bright side of things, that's what I say.  

Quote - and just to say, i'm stopping now (or mean to).  before i was biding time, but now i'm just not getting stuff done. 

Yes.....after awhile forum disagreements like this can turn into a true waste of time.

Now see there........we agree on something ! :biggrin:  Forum debates should be taken for what they are worth.  And frankly, the central subject of this one isn't exactly what I would call earth-shaking for its importance in the greater scheme of things.  And right now, I've got some work to do, too.

Quote - it was fun disagreeing entirely with you.  i wish you well.

Same here.  Perhaps we'll do it again sometime.  :woot:

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Victoria 4 will be more popular than V3.

Victoria 4 will come in 2 mesh resolutions.  She is entirely new mesh - from scratch. DAZ said so at the fartzone chat, which is available for public view -- all you have to do is go and look. While it doesn't say tons, what it does say is a lot.

Victoria 4 will change a lot of minds herein -- on both sides.

Circular systems are closed systems, and as such, do not grow. Since this system is not stagnating but continuing to grow, it is not a circular system, and circular reasoning for it is fundamentally ignorning some other element that affects the outcome.

Poser 7 is sooner than some think, farther than many hope.

If you don't like something enough to comment on it, then get off your rear and do something about it. Learn. Grow. Do. Change.

Although, the allure of sittin around and shootin the breeze is always easier and seems more fun...

Quote - Victoria 4 will be more popular than V3.

No doubt true.  I've never doubted it for a moment.  But some will need to be shown it before they'll believe it.....all patently obvious facts to the contrary........and even when it happens: there will still be those who'll outright deny it.  And then there are those who will reluctantly admit that what's real is real; however, they'll then proceed to attempt to explain the phenomenon away with plausible-sounding but hollow arguments.  That's the usual procedure.  We've got a standard formula to follow here.

Quote - Victoria 4 will change a lot of minds herein -- on both sides.

If she's anything like what I expect: then I won't be changing my mind.

Quote - Circular systems are closed systems, and as such, do not grow. Since this system is not stagnating but continuing to grow, it is not a circular system, and circular reasoning for it is fundamentally ignorning some other element that affects the outcome.

Vicious circles -- bad things.  And yes......I believe that the 3D world is just getting started.  What's been before will be nothing to what's to come.

Quote - Poser 7 is sooner than some think, farther than many hope.

This means that it's not on my computer yet, but maybe it'll be here in time for Christmas morning.  Possibly Christmas morning next year.  But one would hope this year.  It's one of those good news / bad news things.

Quote - If you don't like something enough to comment on it, then get off your rear and do something about it. Learn. Grow. Do. Change.

Although, the allure of sittin around and shootin the breeze is always easier and seems more fun...

Fun is in the eye of the beholder.  So is "doing something".

Ya know, Dan Farr hasn't contacted me yet to consult with me on the design parameters for V4.  And I've left so many messages on his voice mail, too.......

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Thanks for the F/Artzone heads-up.

I think V4 release Day/Week will be a fun one for the forums...no doubt equal cries of glee and dismay to accompany to horrendous images of limbs bent to their furthest breaking parameters, expressions stretched to their Munch-like limits...and it will be 2.5 minutes before the first NV4IATWAS hits the galleries...

I gotta load up on pop-corn!

Cheers

 

Dan's been busy, ya know.  Working hard.  He'll get back to ya.

Really.

---

2.5 minutes?

That long?

That's for the rendo upload times, mwahaha...