I went on an interview for the company that does the special effects for Blue Man Group concert videos. They had alot of greenscreen footage and they were looking for a compositor and rotoscoper. I was asked to bring in a reel of my greenscreen work. The interview was going ok, I'd say not good or bad. At the end of it they said they were looking forward to see my reel and I told them I also added a couple of 3D shots it in at the end (i figured it couldn't hurt to showcase a few other cool things I thought I did). One of the guys asked me "what program did you use for it" and I told Him Poser and he laughed out loud and said in a real snobby way " well, we use Maya around here". His partner held in his laugh but it was obvious he felt the same way.

I started getting into 3D about 6 months ago with Poser and I feel like i've learned so much and really improved myself as a filmmakerand artist. I'm sorry I'm not ready ready for a program like Maya but I bet if I told *him I did it Lightwave or another program he would have believed it after seeing it. Cant they cut us some slack? Base your opinion on how it looks not what program was used to make it *

Well, I operate on both ends of the spectrum. I use Poser, bryce, and wings, but I also use Rhino, Lightwave and 3ds Max. Which one I use depends on what I want to do.
IMO it doesn't matter which tools you use, it's the finished product that counts.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

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Amen to that!!

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dude for all it does poser totally kills. no 3d suite on the planet can match it. and it's coming of age. of course, you'll never be able to model in it...but you do 2d photo editing in photoshop or something. and the work some people here put out, (not lengthy animations, but stills) are equal to anything done in the "professional" world. look at final fantasy (still the best, 5 years on) and match that to some stuff our guys do. let them whine about how their suite is superior, while you make cooler looking people.

No matter what you feel about the Poser bias (which is totally unjustified BTW) this doesn't change the fact that it's quite real and pervasive in the 3D industry. There is nothing you can do about this really, if you want a job, don't mention that you use Poser unless the job is for a 3d-related field like illustration or something. And even then you should be presenting your work as illustration/2D done in Photoshop/Painter and not a 3D render in poser.

Plus keep in mind that Poser is not the best medium to show off your skills in the first place. Poser makes things too cookie cutter and easy for you. eg if your render has V3, lights by A, clothes by B, backdrops by C etc, then anyone with the same kind of props and presets will get the same result from poser. This makes it very hard for a prospective employer to evaluate just what was 'your' contribution in a work. ie why should they hire you instead of the next guy doing the same thing ? Of course you may have made a better composition and scene, but frankly that isn't as important as you may think, since all that stuff is already decided (by the design, storyboard and concept guys) way before a scene ever reaches your computer.

Sure its different if you are your own boss or are working freelance or something, cause then only the results matter and as long as they are under budget/on time no one cares what you use.

A lot of the problem is just the money. People who spend a lot of money and something often seem to need to feel better about their expenditure by looking down on cheaper products, or by emphasizing the good points of theirs and the bad points of yours. Maya costs about 20 times what Poser does, so that's how it goes. If you went in with a demo reel of Maya stuff, and they used Houdini (which runs about 5 times as much as Maya) you might have had the same reaction.

Bottom line is, there's not much you can do about snobbery; some peoples got da affliction, some peoples don't.

Captain Jack

The same thing happens in the paint and canvas media. I used to paint the classical way which would take days to complete a picture using expensive paints and brushes. Then I discovered the "wet on Wet" techinque the one the Bob Ross had made so popular. In short I was told that the wet on wet was like painting by numbers.

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" well, we use Maya around here".

I think it has to do with licensing. IE....you have to use whatever package your employer has.

I don't think it's Poser snobbery at all. If you go to a job interview they don't want to know what you can do with a low end piece of software. They want to know what you can do with industry standard software.

A home hobbyist can use any software he pleases, but to get a job you need to use what the industry uses.

Maya....$2,000 (If I am correct on the price, but that is what I see it go for, unless someone else clarifies info)

Poser.....$249.00

Job interview....Priceless.

Even on the net, I get joked on, when I tell em I use poser.

sigh..I think it should be the skill of the user; I've seen things in Wings that make my jaw drop, and I've seen things in Rhino that make me laugh at them..;)

Yeah, it's all about what you know in terms of software. If it's the 'in house' app, that's what you have to deal with. It's mainly training costs; no one wants to pick that up if they can help it. It shouldn't be that hard to find, even the local tech school around these parts (Wake Tech), has a Maya class. If you knew Maya, that's the thing they're interested in. I would have asked them to look at the stuff first, and then commented on 'amazing that it was done in Poser, eh?'..;)

but that's me..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Oh I forgot after the guy said "well, we use Maya around here" his partner jumped in and said, ( some may call you a poser for using that software).

Unless you have a job in 3D already or are a -current- student, chances are you're using Maya illegally from some sort of warez download, given the extreme price of the app...

So when a prospective employer expects a new entry into the industry to already have experience with it, they're really expecting someone who is willing to break a competitor's copyrights.

The rest of us have to learn on apps at other ends of the spectrum, and maybe we might take a class and learn Maya, but we aren't going to be using it until we either steal it or enter the professional industry under a well funded employer.

Truth has no value without backing by unfounded belief.
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Quote - Unless you have a job in 3D already or are a -current- student, chances are you're using Maya illegally from some sort of warez download, given the extreme price of the app...

So when a prospective employer expects a new entry into the industry to already have experience with it, they're really expecting someone who is willing to break a competitor's copyrights.

The rest of us have to learn on apps at other ends of the spectrum, and maybe we might take a class and learn Maya, but we aren't going to be using it until we either steal it or enter the professional industry under a well funded employer.

An astute observation to say the least. I know I sure don't have 2Gs to drop on a program. I'd rather spend some of that on upgrades to my computer. Not only that my wife would have my head her being the CFO and all...LOL!!!!

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In short I was told that the wet on wet was like painting by numbers.

Funny.. my dad who's now retired paints that way.. only mixing a basic base colour on his pallet then mixing the shades he wants on the painting itself as he goes.

can't be that good then... only got a wing dedicated to his work at the London Fire Brigade Museam in London and sculpted figurines for all the British Army Regiments... ;)

Welcome to the third world, where money is the measure of a man (or a woman). If you don't have that Mercedes of a program (Maya, softimage, Lightwave, 3D studio, etc), you are invited to wallow in th gutter. so, there you are, master of a program that cost you a few paltry dollars, and the people that spent thousands on the big car program are still learning.

Take solace in that you are not alone. Many of us endure the same insults. People will see an image or anim done in Poser and ask in awe, "Whence came this?" When you answer "from the pallette of Poser", they will scoff and belittle to cover up that they were the ones impressed and were taken in by the beauty of the image.

such is life

Ask them, if Poser is such a 'toy', why there is so much support for it in these big, all-important applications?

3DSMax: GestureMax, BodyStudio
Maya: CR2 Loader, BodyStudio
LightWave: CR2 Loader, BodyStudio
C4D: CR2 Loader, BodyStudio, interPoser, CinePoser
Strata: CR2 Loader
Vue: Native Poser support
Carrara: Native support and Transposer
DAZ|Studio

And there are probably a dozen more that I've missed.

Maya's learning curve is basically a line that goes vertical from zero. It is considered one of the most difficult 3D applications to learn and may take years or decades to master. Expecting a green-horn to be fluent in this (and not already be in the industry working with it) deserves a good laugh...

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

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The reason poser is laughed at is it is very limited and not professional. I would not mention it at all. It's a plug'n to the major apps, but if you can't use the major apps, but you can use poser you are screwed. The major apps can do all the things that poser can do and they do it much better. To think otherwise is incorrect. You may see Poser used for some quick shots here and there but it is not used in any blockbuster movies. It pales in comparision to the pro apps. I still like poser but we need some perspective. That doesn't mean that there isn't some exceptional art made with poser. There is. I just wouldn't go into a studio bragging about poser when there are trained professional users of the major 3d apps all around.

If you buy a nice car, and then pretty it up with a bunch of aftermarket add-ons and a custom paint job done by somebody else, it might look impressive to a lot of people.

But it's not going to impress the guy down at the garage who builds his own cars from the engine out, including fabricating the custom fiberglass body pieces. He knows that your skills don't match his... and he's RIGHT! If he wants to laugh at your car, there's not much you can say about it.

That's the issue with Poser - the quality of the finsihed work is only a PARTIAL reflection of the skill of the artist. It's also a reflection of the skill of the artists whose purchased items went into making up the image. It's the difference between using Stonemason's awesome sets for a background vs. being able to build and texture sets as well as Stonemason does. Looking at the final image, you'd be hard pressed to tell if the creator is a great talent, or just a half-decent hack who had the sense to incorporate someone else's great talent.

Unfortunately, even if the guy at the garage DOESN'T laugh at your car, chances are the idiot that works with him will. You know who I mean... that guy who thinks he's a hot-shot mechancic, but reallly the boss only lets him do oil changes, tire rotations and sweeping up, because he makes a mess of anything else he's given. Even though he hasn't earned the right to feel superior the way his co-worker has, he still does - just because he works in the same shop. Such is human nature.

As for the interview (and MANY, MANY other situations) a good rule of thumb is never volunteer information. Of course, they did ask you directly what you used. If you want to be cagey, you can always come back with something like "I've got a number of apps in my toolkit... I usually take an eclectic approach. I always think the work is more important than the tools used to create it."

Jimdoria ~@>@

Anyone who wants to learn Maya can go to their web site and download Maya 7 Learning Edition for free.

You can't export to other formats and it renders with watermarks, but if you're serious about learning how to use the program .............

it's a bias against poser, not towards it - just a minor syntax note we may see something to change that bias in poser 7, but as it stands now, poser is not comparable to the various professional 3D modellers/renderers IMVHO. all one needs to do to confirm that is to visit the gallery here, or note the many threads in which poser users are advised to take shortcuts to speed up renders. invariably these shortcuts, when combined with poser's intrinsic bad joints, lead to the sort of renders which 3D professionals laugh at. it's the "poser look" that I am sincerely hoping we'll escape in v.7. right now, a person with years of experience in poser and other renderers can do a render in poser that any 3D professional will admire, but the typical default render by an inexperienced user is what 3D professionals will laugh at. animation in poser is the same story. I think poser is the easiest 3D app in which to produce human animations, but users take so many shortcuts to speed things up, that the resulting animations are not up to the standards required by 3D professionals IMVHO. if it takes 6 months in poser to do a 5-minute clip, or it takes 18 months in poser to do a 12-minute clip, that is not a professionally acceptable timetable IMVHO, regardless of the various mitigating factors provided by the animators.

Yes, anyone can learn Maya - but that doesn't change the learning curve. I didn't just make that up - it is well known that it has the steepest learning curve of any 3D CG application.

And the reason is that Maya is geared directly towards a studio environment - not personal use. If I had gone to this interview, and said that I use Poser, Vue 5 Infinite, Carrara, Bryce, D|S, Lightwave, Cinema 4D Studio, and so on - they'd probably still say the same thing. Their loss and I wouldn't go to an interview where the expectation is for software not in my experience. If they didn't make that known (Must have Maya experience), that is THEIR fault - not the poor interviewee's.

Laughing under these circumstances isn't exactly warranted, but we'd need more information to make a determination.

And I agree that Poser isn't up there with the big boys - but some restraint and humility might be in order for the interviewers here. I remember that after HS, I was going to go to Art college - the interviewer laughed at me for not having the source of funds (and not even recommending scholarships or student loans). Since then, I've mastered EM enginering/design/drafting, computer programming in several languages, computers in general, electric and classical guitar, self-taught in Physics and a variety of college-level mathematics, etc. Remember the kid in "The Incredibles" - this is something of what happens when a-holes laugh at people out of ridicule. They either go commit suicide or they found Microsoft and squash their detractors. ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Well, I think metacreations did a good job in the gui in its programs, Poser, Bryce, canoma... I have test some expensive applications, and none of them has the great interface poser has.

In other way, there is some programs out there, free and open source programs that can do a good job for modeling an render and igf you compare that group with the expensive group, 3d max, maya, softimage,... realy you think you must pay thousands of dollar for them?, I think the answer is , today, no, perhaps years ago.

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I had a counselor in high school who wouldn't let me take a Latin class because he thought I wouldn't be able to handle it. So i taught myself. I recently finished a translation of caesar's Gallic War.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

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Take a look at blender.org and what they did with "the elephant man" and you know that whoever tells you that "he uses MAYA" , has spent to much money which he will never admit. The fact that he has MAYA ,doesn't make him a great artist. It's the results that matters not the tools you have to achieve that result.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Agreed completely. After my disappointment with 'Art school', I ran a rather successful business doing dungaree jacket artwork and other stuff. I was well known in the Philadelphia area. This from a poor kid who had no opportunities during the Reagan rape of America. Now that Bush is raping America (repeatedly and without a condom), I feel good that I'm a self-made human being who doesn't exploit and use others for personal advancement. Sorry about the political meandering.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

'That's the issue with Poser - the quality of the finsihed work is only a PARTIAL reflection of the skill of the artist. It's also a reflection of the skill of the artists whose purchased items went into making up the image. It's the difference between using Stonemason's awesome sets for a background vs. being able to build and texture sets as well as Stonemason does. Looking at the final image, you'd be hard pressed to tell if the creator is a great talent, or just a half-decent hack who had the sense to incorporate someone else's great talent.'

I was of the understanding that jobs in professional 3d studios were quite specialized in themselves - i.e. you model, make textures or material shaders, construct scenes or lighting etc. An individual would rarely be responsible for all those processes right up to and including rendering.
As such, although the Poser artist might use elements 'made' by someone else (or many others)in a render, the creative use of those items in a scene might be no less impressive than a professional performing the same role - putting all the pieces together. That is a talent all of its own.

Beatifully modelled and textured products on their own do not a great render make.

While I agree that Poser is in a much smaller league to the high-end apps, it does offer the same potential as a tool for an artist to express that talent.

'Only a bad workman blames his tools'.

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I like political, I like seeing others ideas about THEIR country. As far as I'm concerned until this archaic two party system is abolished, the courts removed from deciding elections and third party candidates can run without being blocked, removed from ballots and oppressed then the two parties are going to continue to drag the rest of us down. They don’t care about us only in money and power and it runs down both sides of the isle. Years ago I would have said things differently and I believed differently but I was young and foolish and hadn’t been sent to hell and back a few times or did I see the real world. One thing is for certain and that is there is plenty of suffering going on right here in the good ol’ US of A you don’t need to go the Iraq, Somalia or some third world to find it. It’s just not Bush raping this nation it’s politicians in general. They are the reason wars are started. Sorry now I went political!

Laughing at someone to make one feel better about themselves is so grade school and insecure. While poser is not a super duper, mega bucks program it is still a tool much like a palette knife, brush and canvas. It depends on the artist. I’ve seen some amazing and incredible art in my travels in this world done by people with the very basic of tools and with little or no education. One can have all the most expensive tools at their disposal but if they have no heart, there is no art. It’s like music you can hit every note on pitch and have all the mechanics but if you have no feeling for music it means nothing.

Okay I’ll shut up now.

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Tools can be important. One would not necessarily hire someone with hand lathe experience to use a CNC lathe. But the determination here is based upon potential rather than tool-set. Someone who appears willing to learn the process when experience is unavailable is better than nothing at all.
In situations where there is a wide field of applicants from which to choose, it is demeaning to belittle those who try but are not qualified. Give them a pat on the shoulder and say "get the experience for the next round of availabilties". That's humane, conscientious, and nondemeaning. Laughing at the applicant is frustrating, demeaning, and outright scandlous. This exudes an air of superiority and arrogance.

I was taken from a simple 'draftsman' position (making part and assembly drawings) to engineer of a multilayered, magnetically-shelded enclosure for SQUID equipment. The raise was insignificant, but I applied every ounce of experience, knowledge, and learning capable to meet the challenge. For the most part, the operation was successful considering the large requirements. In this case, it was an internal affair under mitigating circumstances, but the potential was utilized and had a beneficial outcome. It is often in history that a risk given to an unknown results in exemplary advancements. Remember that all of the television and computer video technology in use today (CRT) was the idea of a simple farmer (Farnsworth) who died poor and destitude because of big-business (RCA for the most part). How we compensate innovation is as important as how we compensate mundane continuity.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

For example, I am modeling now in Wings3d, and sincerelly, I don't chage wings3d for any expensive program like max ... ( talking about modeling only)

adh3d website

Well, wings is an excellent program, and if it does what you want then there's really no need to lay out money for another program. After all, the finished models are really no different than if they were made with one of the more expensive ones.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

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Quote - Agreed completely. After my disappointment with 'Art school', I ran a rather successful business doing dungaree jacket artwork and other stuff. I was well known in the Philadelphia area. This from a poor kid who had no opportunities during the Reagan rape of America. Now that Bush is raping America (repeatedly and without a condom), I feel good that I'm a self-made human being who doesn't exploit and use others for personal advancement. Sorry about the political meandering.

I didn't see the word "government" mentioned anywhere in that story of success.......strange. Very strange. Being a "self-made human being" is an excellent qualification for one holding to the politically conservative philosophy. There's not a single hand-out in the list.

As for "exploiting others for personal advancement" -- that sounds like an excellent metaphor for the operation of taxes: which are doled out for purposes of 'personal advancement'. If "personal advancement" isn't too ironic of a term to indicate what typically happens to the recipients of government "largesse" ((read: Confiscate it from Peter to hand it out to Paul -- and purchase Paul's vote in the process -- and thus buy political power for oneself -- which was the ultimate goal all along. But it's best done with Peter's confiscated middle-class money. Limousine Liberals always have their own handy trust funds, and needn't worry themselves about such trivia.)).

Speaking of handouts -- I'll take a free copy of Maya -- and 3dsmax. I have Lightwave. But I had to pay for it (gr-r-r-r-r-r-r-r!).

Something To Do At 3:00AM

---For example, I am modeling now in Wings3d, and sincerelly, I don't chage wings3d for any expensive program like max---

I think it depends on what you're used to work with: I've made my first 3D-modelling in Autocad, which was a crime to use, later I worked with Rhino3D because it had a similar interface like autocad (eight years ago, now it's completely different!) but a much better way of 3D-modeling. I've tried wings3D, anim8tor, cinema3D, blender and some other programs... but I've always returned to Rhino because of the trusted feeling it gives me. I know Rhino isn't cheap compaired to WIngs3D, although much cheaper than MAYA or MAX, but it is a tool which I love to work with: it gives the right precision I need as an engineer, but it can also gives you a more satisfying organic approach to your work. On the other hand it lacks any support for character-modelling, so Poser is a good partner, E-frontier has even made a free Rhino-export plug-in. And I think that with the new Rhino4 upgrade, which has a lot of more mesh-support, it will only be better.
I liked wings3D because it's easy to use, but if you don't use it on a regular base , (which counts for every other program) you forget the basics.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

well, this sort of thing happens all the time. When I first started out working with PC's ('85), it was a lot looser then. You taught yourself, and learned packages gradually.

As enough of a knowledge base develops, they figure that you should know 'the basics'. You probably were supposed to learn Maya at your last job (yeah, right..;), or at school.

As things get more complicated, they also get more stratified. Things get to the point I call 'rotojobs', because the only person with all the qualifications was the guy who just left it..;) You know, the " need 5 years Autocad, Maya, Lightwave, Rhino experience each, know Perl, CSS and XML, Quark Express, Ventura Publisher (psyche! I actually used to use that..;), know all Photoshop programs,have 10 years experience in the binary language of Batchi...;) you know the drill..;)

If you check out the 'Brit' mags, they basically are saying the same thing; if you read them waiting for your copy of Cinema 4 or Poser 3 (yada yada) to load, they'll tell you what the industry as a whole is looking for.

Bottom line; it just seems that folks starting out can't get a break. It gets to the point you have to shell out a wad o' dough just to get to the starting line. I hope things work out for you..I just wish I had the imagination to do the stuff y'all can do sometimes..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

I'm glad that as a autonome draftsman I can make my own standards. Although I've to reckon with my clients wishes, most of them are only interested in the results and not the tools I use.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

OK, after rading most of these posts in this thread I find it difficult that most people don’t understand the requirements of the upper CG world.

First, there’s no way you can compare Poser to any of the higher end 3D programs. Yes, it has its peculiarities just as most 3D programs but it simply doesn’t compare with high end products. In Poser you are very limited and everything is confined to the morph dials in order to create your differences. In most high-end programs, you should be able to control all aspects of your character.

Mind you, millions of dollars have been spent to achieve the utmost results and Poser just doesn’t cut it when it comes to realism from the cinematic perspective. I think most people in a sane mind can come to that conclusion. This is not to say you cannot develop such a system. Yes, images from far away are fine…more intense figures…I think Poser hardly fulfills that area of cinema graphics, not at its present stage and when it manages to do so, most of us won’t be able to afford it.

So, let’s be real from a board of Directors stand point that make such aspirations possible (multimillion dollars worth); I was a Director of graphics for a certain corporation and I must tell you, they need to be competitive and in line with the most up to date software otherwise, why invest?

well, many production movies companies use their own software and sure they have what they are looking for, the top programs have more tools, they have quicker render engine than free or cheap ones , but all these things and many others don't mean that a little company or some artist cannot use Poser with other free tools to make a profesional look work, I am sure that, with time, it will be posible.

The thing we must asking is if price differences are justified.

adh3d website

'nuther thing about software is that by the time you and your employers master it, there's this new version, that they just "HAVE" to have. Not because it does a better job, but that their clients will be impressed by it. "Don't go to ABC animation.... they only use Maya 6, we have Maya 8'. It's like that guitar amp in Spinal Tap that goes up to 11, "It's one more." Even when you look at movies done in Maya, softimage, and 3Ds, the so-called high end packages, you see a lot of artifacting. This is why these packages are popular in Sci fi and Fantasy (In space, no one can see your jaggies).

In my Artist Bio, when I submit to festivals and distribution, I always mention that I am self taught as no respectible art schools would have anything to do with me. I take that as a source of pride. so should anybody else. You shouldn't have to pay great amounts of cash just to have permission to create what is in your heart, your soul.

but that's just me.

The point is don't go into a CG Studio job interview bragging about how you use Poser. You'll always be laughed at. I

First off I have to say that I'm in a Maya class and although the curve is fairly steep I am keeping up and loving it. It will probably steal me away from Poser, but I still believe Poser to be a valuable application and would never laugh at someone for what tools they use. First night in class we had to stand up and tell a bit about ourselves. One guy about 20 stands up and tells everyone he wants to learn Maya because he is "using Poser and it sucks". Surprised me....I've made thousands of dollars using Poser and intend to make more. At any rate, he never came back after the first class, and no, I don't know why. I bought the unlimited version of Maya for $420 delivered to my door and was just offered an upgrade for $1000 from the company so it really isn't out of reach.

I was also raised poor, I don't blame it on any administration, my folks were drunks and that's the way it was. I left school at 14 but still managed to get my nursing degree. So when folks talk about this country and pretty much blame the president for their circumstances I tend to get a bit edgy. Don't take what a few folks have to say about America and say you like to hear about our country. I for one wouldn't live anywhere else...not that the countries I've visited are bad, I just love my country and I am loyal to it. Enough to have joined the USAF and served my time willingly. No administration is perfect, and if you don't like the one you have get out and vote in someone else. Sorry I will now get off of my soapbox and go back to my project for school.

Ridiculing an interviewee is contemptible. And consider yourself lucky you did NOT get a job with a company that rewards that kind of nastiness.

Marque --
A lot of us grew up poor and fixed that. And many of those lucky few resent a government that is devoting enormous energy to seeing it never happens again. But yeah, vote, preferably absentee or at least paper alternate, so Diebold doesn't vote for you.

Mick

Quote - The point is don't go into a CG Studio job interview bragging about how you use Poser. You'll always be laughed at. I

But if I brag that I wrote a plugin that let's you use Poser content directly in another 3D application - they wouldn't be laughing then, would they? :)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Well its different for coding of course, cause there its clear cut just how original and useful your work is. Its not like you took a bunch of premade libs and just linked to them for the plugin now is it ? (and if thats all you did, then you WILL be laughed at, no offense)

Plus TD types are always in short supply and you couldv been coding Warcraft machinama pron for the last 5 months and they would still give you a look see i bet :p

Quote - it doesn't matter which tools you use, it's the finished product that counts.

Exactly!

Another bias is a 2D graphic program. Everyone is "Adobe Photoshop! Adobe Photoshop! Adobe Photoshop! Adobe Photoshop!"

You can do the same thing in PSP for 1/10th the price!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yet there are some people who are what I call "Adobe Snobs" who insist that unless it's done in Photoshop, the work isn't good, and anything done in another program such as PSP isn't serious work! I even remember a thread here where someone said that you would be laughed out of the office if during an interview you said you used PSP instead of Adobe Photoshop.

My nephew is a freelance graphic artist/web designer who has contracted with companies that have worked on some major Hollywood movies. He uses both PSP and Photoshop... about 50/50, and no one has laughed at his work! And he's laughing all the way to the bank.

Like you said, it's not the tool that matters, but what you do with it. If the "tool" really mattered so much, some men would be in big trouble!!!! :b_blush: :b_funny:

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Part of what a lot of people aren't "getting" is that there are a LOT of industry standards that are required for higher end CGI production.

In many studios you NEED Maya, Photoshop, (insert the package name here.).

Yeah, cheaper software is getting better, and in a lot of cases, you can work wonders with it, but just try to render higher resolution animations film frames in poser for a feature release.

(And wait for the next 5 years for it to render!)

I love poser. Its very cool for whatit does. I used to use paint shop pro a lot.. and then I learned additional tools in photoshop I can no longer live without.

Bottom line in studio work, is you need to work with the tools THEY use, and braging you are excellent in a hobbiest tool won't get you any props at all.

And laughing at someone who uses a hobbiest tool in any job application doesn't surprise me at all. Imagine someone applying for a high end commercial painting job, but presenting crayon drawings as their portfolio, when they expect to see acrylic photo real paintings.

Or imagine someone applying for a construction job, and bring in their lincoln log house.

When yu apply for a pro job, they expect you to be conversant with pro tools, and also to be presenting them in your portfolio. They also expect you to KNOW which tools are pro quality level, and discussing your expertise in them, not hobbiest tools.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Yeah, if you're applying for a job with a specific company then your portfolio should contain work done with whatever applications they use (and which they will expect you to be able to use to produce work that's up to their standards), but if you're self employed or a freelancer then you can use whatever gets the job done.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

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I went to a talk by a woman who works at Pixar - apparently they use some terrible ancient program that is hell to learn and use but it's such a part of their production pipeline/workflow that everyone has to learn it. I think most companies are like that in that they have an established pipeline and have already chosen Pshop, Maya or whatever as their production standard.

If you're going for a job at Company X, I guess the best thing to do is check what programs they use beforehand and customise your interview/portfolio with that knowlege in mind.

However, if you're going for a compositing job it shouldn't matter that you generated some 3D material in Poser as long as the compositing kicks arse. It did sound like the interviewer had issues with Poser.

Anyway, Human Resourses/Hirers & Firers are always big on Degrees, Skill Sets, Experience etc as evidenced on paper rather than end results I've found, rather than "what you can do with what you've got" - I think hiring creative people is always a bit of a risk and having a good Paper Trail covers their butts if they make a bad hiring decision.

As someone else said, those sorts of rules don't seem to apply to freelancing - that's where they seem to go on results, not what fancy program/equipment you use.

Agreed also that there is a certain "Stock " Poser look that outrages me if I see it make print...I think some graphic designers pop out quick illustrations with it when facing a nasty deadline - not much different to hitting a stock-photography archive in a similar situation I guess - appart from the skill-level of the stock material on display.

Cheers

Funny.. one of the biggest danish newspapers (for the brits: Think The Sun in danish) recently had a job ad where one of the REQUIREMENTS was that you knew how to use Poser.

Sure, they also mentioned that they used Max, but 've seen their illustrations on an almost daily basis and they're Poser. Poser 6 btw. They normally use the stock Poser figures and some custom made models (or car models, I don't know enough about those to say where they got them) but bottom line is, there are places where Poser is definately a PLUS!

Probably means the art director uses it - Infiltration!!! heheh

Hey anybody ever take a good look at the P4(Maybe P3) Dork? Does'nt her look just like a Blue Man...

Poser is also used by "Scientific American" magazine on occasion. 3D World routinely has Poser this or that - right along side Maya, Max, et al.

Take a look at some scientific, medical, or 3D related papers (we're talking from universities or even research labs - sometimes even PhD work or theses). You'll find Poser spattered all over the place (ACM and IEEE - membership has its benefits). Of course, now we're not talking as much about production studios as other fields.

Poser is just a hobbyist toy - my a$$. Of course, most of the interest lies in the Poser content sometimes for 'ghastly experiments'. ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

All they're doing is showing their ignorance. Not because Poser is so wonderful, but because real artists know the methods and materials don't matter, the product does. They were laughing because they're technicians, not artists.

look at the work Calum5 produces with poser...... its not the software its how you use it.

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

Really what it comes down to is knowing what the employer wants.

If the job specifies that for an Administrative assistant position, you need to be an expert in Microsoft Office, then that means that you need to know those applications.

"Oh, well I found a great text editor online that I use that actually lets me...."

That's nice. It's also irrelevant at this point in the process.

While you may be capable of doing good work without that background, that's not what your prospective employer is looking for.

If you are applying for a machinist's position, and they want you to have skills in the most recent build of AutoCAD, then coming to the table with a starship model that you lovingly built in Wings or Truespace is not what you prospective employer is looking for.

What a low end app is for many of these jobs is a kludge- that is, a quick and dirty way to cut corners towards an end.

Is that a bad thing? No. It's like crazy glue or duct tape. Any number of set designers and modelmakers will tell you a few stories about behind the scenes experiences involving duct tape and crazy glue at the last minute.

That said, a kludge is often a solution to an inadequately designed project. This is NOT appealing to a prospective employer. If you are selling yourself as a designer, they want to hear about how you were able to create a fully functional prototype in less than a week using the same state of the art tooling that they've invested hundreds of thousand of dollars in...Not how you had to use Bondo and Elmers glue to get something that looked passable for trade show. The latter story is the one you might share with fellow designers AFTER you get the job.

Showing up unprepared to discuss the employers needs and preferred toolset is doing neither of you any good.

Food for thought.

Keep in mind, and I am speaking from the prospective of having been at Siggraph, The major houses are running Max and Maya. The recent Pirates of the Carribean movie was done using Max and Maya. Some games houses want to see if you can model, texture and animate a figure from the ground up. I overheard the rep from Insomniac Games (Spyro the Dragon) tell a prospective employee just this.

We are talking Sony, Pixar (Who has a plug in for Max and Maya called Renderman), Lucasfilms, THX, Rhythm and Hues, etc...

Poser is a low-end application marketed to the Hobbyist segment ofthe population. Great for image work, but don't expect the studios and games house to take you seriously.

It isn't snobbery. Again another false assertion based on teh fact that the people making it have no clue what the big houses are using. Can you honest to the work that Disney did for "Chronicles of Narnia" in Poser? Disney needed 3 houses to pull this off (Sony Imageworks, ILM and Rhythm and Hues).

And Arcady, You are dead wrong about your assertion about Maya users and Warez. I know someone right now how is busting his arse working just to save up the money to purchase the program. So before you make such an accusation, you might want to think first. I could purchase Maya outright during tax time, should I chose too...

Not all studios use Maya or Max. That is an assumption. Not all studios are Pixar or ILM (there are actually studios in other countries, for instance). Some use Cinema 4D (yes, really), some use LightWave3D, some use Houdini, some use XSI, some use who knows what. So, your 300 years of Maya experience (which won't hurt), isn't as good as my 10 years of Cinema 4D experience when the studio is using Cinema 4D and looking at applicants. Here it would come down to skills and quality of work - not toolset. But there would be more of a leaning toward someone with direct experience rather than side experience.

Yes, you should be aware of what the studio uses prior to the interview - but they should make it clear what they are looking for. If they don't, it is not the fault of the interviewee that they neglected to provided required information, now is it? ;) Just because a studio is seeking applicants, my first thought wouldn't be - I must know Maya. Probably good for most of the industry, but never assume.

For instance, AutoCAD isn't used by all technology companies for design. I should know - I worked in the field. There are other CAD systems out there - some 'off the shelf', some proprietary, some in-house. Even my twenty years of AutoCAD experience won't help if they are using something else. They either turn to someone who knows the software or invest in my edumacation. :D

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Well.

Anyone can knock out a quick render in Poser. No biggie. No huge amount of skill involved.

The DIFFERENCE is doing a render in Poser that stands up next to some of the "Big Names".
It is possible, but it takes a LOT of skill and just as much time, if not more, because you're limited by what Poser can do.
You might end up pulling it into another program to get what you want out of it, but the END result can be as different as night and day.

I tell people I use Poser and they scoff.
Then I point them at my 2D work and they suddenly shut up.

The bias is that if it was done in Poser, it can't be good. They all go very quiet when it IS good.

And BTW - I once browsed a site advertising Maya courses and looked at the student showcases...
One of those showcases featured... V3.
Frankly, even with my limited animation experience I could have done better... in Poser.

Silke

yeah, they would be laughing if it was for poser. Are we that in denial that we don't know where the Poser user's place is in the software universe...? If you want to walk into a job interview and mention poser with a serious face, be my guest. I won't lose any sleep over it. A fact is a fact, no matter how you slice it: Poser users are laughed at in the CG world. This isn't my fault, but the truth. Don't shoot the messenger....

Hi everyone,

I use poser myself, and i do agree it is primitive compaired to what other programs can do. Slowly i'm getting annoyed with posers limitations so i'm trying to move on and learn Vue, and Bryce (still afraid), so i can move with the times. I want to show i'm a dynamic digital artist, not just a poser artist, and photomanipulator if you get me. Its all about self-growth...and also whether you have the pennies to buy the software.

I know at the end of the day what you create at the end result is all that matters, but some people do not see it this way do they? i agree why the interviewers laughed but i can understand their POV. If i was to have two different people that i had to interview that produced artwork/animations both of the same excellent looks, id still employ the person using the better software as they dont have limitations hanging over their heads which the older software can entail...... I'm sorry if i aint explaining myself well, but anyway...

Cheers

Anna

Wet on wet, also called: A la primá! To compare that technique with painting by numbers is almost blasphemy! A la primá demands total attention and control from the artist !

/ Cheers

Quote - Slowly i'm getting annoyed with posers limitations so i'm trying to move on and learn Vue, and Bryce (still afraid), so i can move with the times.

Anna, I hate to tell you, but Vue and Bryce fall into the same category as Poser.

If you were to tell someone you use Bryce or Vue, you'd get the exact same reaction from Maya, Lightwave, 3DMax users.

I do find it pretty interesting that it seems okay to buy meshes for Maya and render with those models (do NOT try to tell me that every Maya user models every mesh in their scenes themselves because that's simply not true) and with bought / freebie textures... and say it's "Professional" but if I do the same thing in Poser - it's not.

I can turn out a pretty basic Maya render and make it look half way decent. (Well I could, but I don't have the student version installed anymore). I could do the same thing with Lightwave or 3DMax.
And if I said it was done in Max, no one would quibble about it, regardless where the model came from.
Fact is, I can turn out better looking 2D Renders with Poser, because I know Poser a lot better than I do any of the others.
Those who can use Maya/LW/Max to turn out spectacular things - great. You have superior skills to me IN THOSE PROGRAMS. I probably have superior skills in Poser to someone who is used to Maya. They won't be able to do what I do, just like I can't do what they do.

But alas... Poser users are the inferior species.

I did a search for some Maya stuff of hobbyists -

http://www.walkondown.com/sculpture/gazelle.htm

and for poser

http://www.teknoresoinfo.com/megatron/Mmix/img6.gif

It all depends on the USER of the program and their skill level. It doesn't matter which software you use, if the end result is what you wanted to achieve.
But no, the CG Community will always pat a very basic Maya user on the back when he/she/it renders a freebie model, while saying that there is a button in Poser to "Make Art".
There is a lack of understanding that it takes no skill to produce rubbish in EITHER software package, but if you want to produce something good... it takes skill, regardless of which program you choose.

I can very easily say "Sure I use Maya" but the fact is, I can't produce anything near as good as I can in Poser - because I don't have the skill to do it... in Maya. I could learn, but Poser is just fine and dandy for what I do. There is no point belittling the fact that someone uses Poser to create stunning images, just as there is no point praising someone who uses Maya to produce rubbish.

Just to clarify - Maya / Max can do much MUCH more than Poser, that is a given. But only in the right hands. Most of the actual snobs out there who wrinkle their noses at Poser users do not fall into the "right hands" category. In fact, a friend of a friend is an animator, using Maya. We met at a party and got chatting. Funny, he wasn't belittling Poser at all. He said if the tool produces what you want - go for it. That to achieve the look and feel of Maya animation involves a LOT of very expensive plugins, massive manpower and a huge amount of expertise. He Animates. He does not texture. He said he couldn't texture worth squat, but he can animate with the best of them.

So there you have it. The really really GOOD stuff Maya can do - is very rarely done by one person. Most people simply do not have that kind of skill on all levels.

Silke

Oh i know what you're saying.... I'm just trying to work through programs one at a time until i reach the more complex ones like maya....

See i get good results in poser, and i'm not being big headed when i say this, because i know my work is good as is my partners, but when i go into vue and try in there...man you should see how crap my work looks lol... It looks like ive never done anything digitally before in my life lol. shakes head

That's the problem though, even though i do good stuff in poser from time to time its still frowned upon regardless. I just want to prove I can work in other programs instead of having stigmas attached to me...

Take Care,

Anna

quote: The recent Pirates of the Carribean movie was done using Max and Maya. Some games houses want to see if you can model, texture and animate a figure from the ground up. I overheard the rep from Insomniac Games

Actually, ILM used a good bit of zbrush for their textures, displacements, etc. I think it is also important to keep up with the way the wind blows. I've had zbrush for years, used it for textures....all of a sudden, everyone is realizing what a great app it is with its abilities to do displacement mapping for lower res objects. Mudbox and Modo are 2 more up and coming apps. Guess what I'm saying is simply....even if you are proficient with a higher end program, one must keep on the cutting edge to stay afloat. I've got a Product Design studio who wants extensive work in zbrush over the next few months....and they want high poly, as well, since they have machines that can handle that stuff.

Poser is kind of a get your feet wet, starting off program. I think to be good in anything, you must push your limits.

poser is all well and good but you wouldn't expect someone to race a pushbike in a formula one race would you. sorry folks but the truth is poser can't do more than a gnats bollock of what the high end apps do. you may get a good render after days of work a render that may even come up to par with an high end app. the difference would be the high end app would come up with it faster. and whilst most who use high end apps may not not be good modelers that wouldn't come in to it. they wouldn't get the job either or hold on to it if they sucked. to the person who said if you have an high end app you stole it. i have max 8 bought and paid for by my family as a present. i would have prefered an old sports car but its what they got me. i suspect if what you say is only partially true then most of the poser programs people are using are also warez.. (and no, just because i have max doesn't mean i can model well, i can't lol.) i would presume people who use wares don't just use high end wares. i would also presume that a lot of what people use in poser is also warez if what you say is true. and think of this. maya or max...ex thousands of dollars ......50 gigs of poser stuff..including the freestuff.....three times as much. by your reckoning the people that have spent over 4000 dollars on poser goodies really haven't, theyre all warez users. basically you're calling all those who use high end programs in rendo thieves.

any way, back to the thread.....it was and is wrong of anyone to ridicule a prospective employee. that shows their shallowness. it's als; wrong to think that because you use poser you should be automatically qualified for a job in cg. and whilst you may be good or think you're good, you're chances of getting an industry standard job without any knowledge of industry standard tools is almost zilch. it like applying for a job as an art restorer with a resume that has the only skills you have listed as ...i'm an experienced etch-a-sketcher. there are too many people out thier who have usee and learned maya, max and other high end apps in college to warrent a cg employer picking someopne who just uses pose. and btw. you can get an educational version of the high end apps for a fraction of the cost. many also go into cg from college with a little app experience and get in house training as to that places workflow. to teach that workflow to a poser user who has no knowledge to start with would not only be unviable financially ,it would also be a time waster.

of course they're biased against poser would you be any different in there place? jmo

billy

Quote - The recent Pirates of the Carribean movie was done using Max and Maya.

Vue was also used, see -> http://www.e-onsoftware.com/about/press_materials/?page=..%2FPRIndex&date=August%201,%202006

Looking at games like Oblivion and Sims 2 you can see that Poser is more like game that isn't up to date than a full blown app. The variety of characters that these games including animals like cats and dogs is incredible. It is far better than what Poser comes with. Anyhow, when a model has not been made for poser what do you tell your boss? "We can't go on with the project. Not until someone makes the model and rigs it for poser. And then will have to wait for support by the vendors" I think vue was used as a plugin for maya for that movie, if not, it was still only used for some backround trees. Without knowing Maya you would not get the job in the 1st place.

Bullocks! Bullocks! and more Bullocks!!!

I know PROFESSIONALS (on CGTalk and here on Renderosity even) who don't know squat about Maya - but they know Cinema 4D and do work in studios. Maya is not the benchmark by which all studios work. Just give it up!

Maya is big in studios - yes. It is and was designed to be a studio 3D CG solution. But, uh, there are more of them these days than you can count (Houdini, XSI, Cinema 4D, LightWave3D, are just the short list of 3D applications in use in studios).

The film short that won the George Lucas Select and Audience Choice awards for Star Wars Fan Films this year used Cinema 4D for its 3D CG. Search on "Pitching Lucas".

I would hope to never have to learn Maya to do the work towards which I'm directing my endeavors. As someone else noted - work in studios is piece-mealed out to modelers, texturers, riggers, animators, sequencers, background designers, renderers, and so on. And Maya ISN'T (in almost all cases) the only 3D application used to do most of these. You'll find either DeepUV or BodyPaint3D being used for mapping and texturing models - in almost every case - no Maya in sight.

Sorry to be confrontational - but stop perpetuating myths.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Maya is not the benchmark by which all studios work. Just give it up!

who said it was? i said that in the main the industry sandards are high end apps wich include maya max and others. and if you ran a cg house and hired someone who only knew poser you wouldn't be very good at your job. you need to stop perpetuating the myth that being able to use poser will get you a job in cg. it may get you a little work on the side but it won't get you a job with a reputable studio. the thread isn't about hiring work out to riggers etc, it's about getting a job in a cg house or studio. and while you say for many studio maya or max etc isn't the only program they use. you youi don't say they don't use it at all. if you run a studio that does use a high end app as well as some low end ones, you don't set your bench mark for hiring as the low end app. (unless your a fool) its usually,...experienced in maya or max with a working knowledge of vue, deepuv,lw etc. i doubt someone who only ever worked in maya would get a job either. except as a modeller. too many people know to many apps to pick someone who just knows poser and lets say bryce.

most good modellers who use maya or max could work efficiently in either after a week or two and probably already know how to get around many other apps. that cant be said of most poser users. unless of course you disagree. people who use max or maya have usually used a number of apps including low end ones. many progressed to the high end apps from using low end apps. often including poser.

we're not talking about hobbyist here who sell and make money through poser items we're talking about bona fide skilled trades people and people who have gone to college to become a skilled tradesperson in a given field. at the beginning when the industry was young you may have got away with knowing a bit of this or that and riding the seat of your pants but you wont do it now unless you work for yourself.. and i admit some skilled trades people may make cash through poser.

so i say to you....just give it up...no i won't cos thats a purile statement. and sorry but you don't sound confrontational you sound like you're living in an alternate reality. to get work in a cg house or studio you need to have what they need. they don't need poser. to imply they do is a real perpetuation of a myth

billy

K was replying to that Cobra Eye dude Billy - don't take personal now y'hear!

The use of Vue Infinite in Pirates 2 was pretty interesting - I guess that landscaping function (can't recall the actual name) really was a kick-arse new bullet point...

I think you'll see more Hi-End professionals using low-end apps where they suit a given task - but I agree that you'll more likely get the Pro jobs by being a proven user of a Pro app in the first place.

But the big guys are good with their new generation of full-functioning demos so it's easy enough to try them out over a summer and see which one you like best (if you're planning to go Pro).

Cheers

i'm not takin it personal bjobbie lol, merely repling to a post in the fashion a post was given.

and i think the backgrounds from vue were more than just a plugin. id say it was used extensively for the particular aspect of creating scenery. like i said , i also think most pro's know their way around the low end apps as well as the high end ones. i'd suspect they even use some of the low end stuff like a writer uses a note pad. once they have an idea formulated in the low end prog they'd then go to the high end app to do the modelling and texturing and rigging etc etc. i don't think people in general are saying low end apps don't have their place in cg, i know i'm not. i'm just stating you can't make a gold coin out of lead.i think it's got to the stage now where if you want to go pro you either get some form of education behind you in cg or go it on your own. not being good enough i won't be taking either route lol.

billy

I've tried and modelled stuff in Max, LW and Hex2 - I seem to have the ability to knock out nice basic designs/concepts - but man the UV mapping has killed me every time - and there's always a few nasty poly-crunches here and there. If anyone wants to be a Pro L33t texturer, I'd suggest following others advice and get Zbrush (keep an eye on Mudbox which is supposed to be better for beginners despite being pro-built) or BodyPaint(?) - any stable programme that allows you to paint/drag textures directly onto the model in realtime and give you the full range of mapping choices (LW's in particular was insanely bad with version 7.5).

I totally understand why production houses break up the skill sets along the pipeline - very rare to get someone like Stonemason who's good at everything (shakes fist at New Zealand - what do they put in the sheep down there? Lamb Chops must be the reason!).

Cheers

If anyone wants to be a Pro L33t texturer, I'd suggest following others advice and get Zbrush (keep an eye on Mudbox which is supposed to be better for beginners despite being pro-built)

YUP

A day late and a dollar short.

I started using Poser 3 in 1998 and I'm currently learning Maya. As mentioned Poser is good for what it does but has obvious shortcomings, as observed by the several complaints listed in the forum daily. I am constantly amazed by what Maya can do and I also enjoy the "instant gratification" that Poser offers. Both Poser and Maya are nothing more than tools, and I believe that an expert Poser user with time can be come a formidable Maya artist.

Everyone talks about the big apps that studios use but why do they use them? I believe this is the key to understanding the "snobbery" you experienced during your interview.

The reason why studios use Maya is because no other package is as extensible as Maya (perhaps SoftImage is but I've never used it so I can't say). If Maya doesn't have a function that you need, you can create it. Maya can be stripped down to its kernel and reconstructed to be as specialized as you need it to be. My Maya and John Doe's Maya may have come from the same place but are completely different, customized apps due to our workflow issues. And of course Maya, using Mental Ray (which some consider to be the world's most physically accurate render engine) or Renderman (production proven for several Hollywood films) can render millions of polygons, which sadly, Poser / Firefly cannot touch. Two fully clothed and hair-ed V3s will crash Poser like a drunk driver.

I'm really sorry that you've been offended by the "high-enders" but I think their snobbery is somewhat justified.

I'd say it's about the attitude of the employer and their needs. The kid who loves working on hot rods and is great at it can probably make a good jet engine mechanic as well, yada yada. Some employers are more concerned with raw talent and aptitude than a tool specific skill. They figure they can teach you to use their tool but they can't teach talent. They'd probably want to see what you can do in Poser, even if they don't use it themselves. Others are going to be the opposite - maybe they don't have time to teach the tools or they just don't want to. Some people are probably going to tune you out as soon as you mention Poser but I don't think I'd necessarily want them recruiting for me.

"Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H. L. Mencken

Whoa, there's restiction on the amount of time you can edit you post. So some information has been re-presented. Apologies for redudancies.

I started using Poser 3 in 1998 and I'm currently learning Maya. As mentioned Poser is good for what it does but has obvious shortcomings, as observed by the several complaints listed in the forum daily. I am constantly amazed by what Maya can do and I also enjoy the "instant gratification" that Poser offers. But both Poser and Maya are nothing more than tools, and I believe that an expert Poser user with time can be come a formidable Maya artist, if they are willing to invest the time.

Everyone talks about the big apps that studios use but why do they use them? I believe this is the key to understanding the "snobbery" you experienced during your interview.

The reason why studios use Maya is because no other package is as extensible as Maya (perhaps SoftImage is but I've never used it so I can't say). If Maya doesn't have a function that you need, you just create it. True, Poser has Python scripting, but I don't believe it's nearly as integrated into Poser as MEL is into Maya - in fact every Maya function and command is a MEL action. Also Maya's script editor offers history, instant feedback and debugging capabilities. Maya: 1, Poser: 0.

Maya can be stripped down to its kernel and reconstructed from the ground up to be as specialized as you need it to be. Let me repeat that for clarity. Maya can be stripped down to its kernel and reconstructed from the ground up to be as specialized as you need it to be. My Maya and John Doe's Maya may have come from the same place (or source code) but are completely different, customized apps due to our workflow issues. Maya: 2, Poser: 0.

And of course Maya, using Mental Ray (which some consider to be the world's most physically accurate render engine) or Renderman (production proven for scene weight and speed for several Hollywood films) can render millions of polygons or NURBS / SubDs respectively, which sadly, Poser / Firefly cannot touch. Two fully clothed and hair-ed V3s will crash Poser like a drunk driver. But how many Poser artist fully clothe their V3s? Maya: 3, Poser: 0.

All of Maya's power comes with a price - learning Maya's eight modules (in the case of Maya Unlimited), which is daunting. I have found that once you "wrap your head around" the way Maya works (which takes very little time once you forget everything you ever learned), most of learning Maya involves exploring the thousands of options available for creating something as simple as a sphere for example. The funny thing is that I find myself using Maya keystrokes in both Poser and Vue 5 Infinite, so I guess I'm biased. Maya: 4 for flexibilty, Poser: 1 for ease.

So I'm really sorry that you've been offended by the "high-enders" but I think their snobbery is somewhat justified.

Quote - I do find it pretty interesting that it seems okay to buy meshes for Maya and render with those models (do NOT try to tell me that every Maya user models every mesh in their scenes themselves because that's simply not true) and with bought / freebie textures... and say it's "Professional" but if I do the same thing in Poser - it's not.

I can turn out a pretty basic Maya render and make it look half way decent. (Well I could, but I don't have the student version installed anymore). I could do the same thing with Lightwave or 3DMax.
And if I said it was done in Max, no one would quibble about it, regardless where the model came from.

Not entirely true. Try posting a Max or Maya-rendered stock Turbosquid figure that is highly recognizable, like Masha or whatever, on CGTalk. Then post the wires for it, etc., and don't mention you used a stock figure, as if you did everything yourself. After the 3rd page or so of "good job man" replies, SOMEONE with a good eye will out you, and you'll be roasted for not mentioning you used a stock figure.

Point being, many hi-end users consider 3D to be a multi-faceted artistic discipline in and of itself; starting with the modeling, lighting, texturing, and finally the render (more of a technical director's forte). Sure, if you work in a big studio you'll probably be assigned to working on a specific aspect of 3D for certain projects (depending on the strength of whatever discipline you may excel at), but most pros are very well-rounded in all the aspects of the art, and often get hired based on a demo reel that shows off their strengths first and foremost, but also shows they can do just about anything at least decently. Sometimes studios will have someone who is excellent at modelling learn ON SITE to do texturing for a specific project. The reason Poser is frowned upon specifically, is because it leaves out several basic elements of the overall 3D experience for the user, in order to simplify the process of creating a render. That's not necessarily a bad thing for the casual user, but if you're a person who's into 3D as it's own kind of artform, or as a serious business, then you might consider Poser a way to "cut corners", and have contempt for it.

You'll find this kind of thing in a lot of skill-oriented disciplines too... like masonry, carpentry, etc. I know a certain housing development where you can't buy land if you're going to put a modular home on it, because it's an area reserved for high-priced "stick-built" homes only (homes that are built "on site" from the foundation up). I know some of the people who live there feel a modular home will depreciate their property value, among other reasons. This despite the fact that today's modular (not mobile, mind you) homes can be just as fantastic looking and "up to code" as any home that's built from the ground up.

Tools : 3dsmax 2015, Daz Studio 4.6, PoserPro 2012, Blender v2.74

System: Pentium QuadCore i7, under Win 8, GeForce GTX 780 / 2GB GPU.

Of course they laughed at you. Poser isn't 3D modeling at all.... it's not even close to 3d modeling. Poser isn't called Poser for no reason..... You can pose pre-made content in it, but you can model in it at all.

I don't even see the point why people even compare Poser to 3D modeling applications. There is no comparisment at all. Even the whole high-end low-end users comparisment makes no sense. Poser users are not 3D modelers at all. If someone shows me his work and says he modeled it with Poser, I laugh. As if Poser could be considered modeling.

If you look at it this way, you will not get annoyed. Poser isn't modeling and modeling isn't posing.

I love using Poser and it has it's excellent uses. I love modeling for my 3D games, don't use Poser for that at all. But I never compare my modeling to my work in Poser.

Someone using Poser is just a 3D application user, anyone (even my 7 year old daughter) can use Poser, no skills required. Modeling is something else.... skill are required and to create a good character or item, lot's of skill. Someone knowing how to do that may laugh about Poser, since to him/her Poser is just a toy.

So grow up and realize compared to Maya and so on, you're just using a mere toy.

Also stop making the prize comparisment, it makes no sense..... Maya costs $2000, Poser only $249, but that's not the end of it. If you really want to make good use of Poser you're going to need $2000 or more, you might as well have bought Maya. But then again, buying Maya wouldn't be of use to a lot of the people around here, they can't do anything with it at all. It requires skills and insight, which most Poser users lack.

Poser is a toy..... dress up some dolls and render them. Very cool, very time saving, but not the real thing.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: I never thought there was actually a bias towards Poser until...