in ref. to: http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2674155 Okay folks... this has got me torqued a bit. If you're going to jump into some hurt-feelinged person's gallery and make arguments for Poser (or whatever), please, please at least use some critical reasoning and logic in your replies. Take for instance this reply: http://comments.deviantart.com/1/43564333/362009031 While incomplete, it is well reasoned, thought-out, and a man can certainly respect what the person has to say. The first response by some obvious troll was crap, but the other (and many like it) were damned solid, and damned true. I hope the reasons why will become clear as you read along... So, I scroll down to the 2nd page of the comments, and find... the same tired arguments that should've been cast off eons ago (and as someone guilty of using them myself long ago, I should know). Okay, let's go through some of these arguments, shall we? (quotations taken from the deviant art thread). First off, Poser isn't a fscking camera, it is an application. Poser art is NOT photography. The photography allegories don't wash. As a guy who has seriously delved into photography, I've come to appreciate the differences, and buddy, they are VAST. Photography is the art of the tangible, of reality. It is a moment in time. The very nature of photography is based on three things performed against a pre-existing tangible subject or event found within the scope of reality to produce art: composition, lighting, and color. In photography, you are taking something that exists and committing it to either film or pixel, in the hopes that the story you tell with it will last orders of magnitude longer than the short moment in which it was composed. Sometimes it is distorted (e.g. fashion photography), but is still grounded in either manipulating or fixing the fleeting reality into the permanent. Poser (and by extension 3D/CG art) is an expression of creativity, since its components are definitely not tangible or real. It is a test of how much creativity and imagination you have. Slap Vicky in a temple and stick a sword in her hand? Unless you have some damned good composition and lighting skills, it's BORING! it's CRAP! Please, drill that through your heads. If you want sterling examples of utter crap, large swaths of my gallery (on ANY site) await you. Now, secondly, let's dwell on that creativity angle, shall we? Back before 2002-2003, before Poserdom blew up into this merchant-centric thing we behold today, the CG world was (only somewhat, but still) okay with Poser, because it actually took some skill to get all the elements you needed together just to create a render that didn't look all plastic and default-looking. It took time and patience to render something that didn't turn out like crap. Creating something unique actually required some skill at hacking text files, using magnets, and actually pushing a program beyond what it was originally meant to do. People actually blended many programs together to create the final result (and those poor bastards using Bryce had to be the most patient of all if they wanted something of any decent-sized resolution). A lot of the best artists in Poserdom stand out because they took the meagre tools they had back then and did some damned fantastic things with them. They (--pay attention closely now--) they invested their own imaginations and creativity into their results. Much of what I see today, I can pretty much name which packages were bought(or P2P'd), and which plugins or add-ons were used to produce which effects. It's all plopped down and called "art", and Heaven help the real artists (whether they use Poser or not) out there who sigh at the sight of an obvious Poser churn-out and complain... it isn't "discrimination", it's the reasoned assumption made from enduring a crushing metric ton of mostly poser-generated dreck that people have (yes) polluted the better art sites with. Let's face it folks - the only thing that keeps the various Poser renders from being completely homogenous nowadays is the sheer variety of pre-built packages out there, and even then it looks to be a losing fight. Sure - there are a few who can make some damned fine artowrk out of just Poser and a few other bits of tools here and there - but they are only a mere fraction... they are the exception, not the rule. And right now, the rule in most artists' eyes is this: Poser = Crap. Why? Well, it's simple: In most CG communities, a budding CG artist will tweak the unholy hell out of his or her work, spending days or weeks making sure that everything is as perfect as possible (composition, mesh, lighting, textures, shadows, etc) before even daring to display it. They will take overwhelming care to detail, and will openly explain what they did to make it, and then learn from solicited opinions. They do not plop a couple of canned elements into a scene, chuck on some clothing (maybe), call it by some lofty name, and then post it two hours after "New Scene" and do the digital equaivalent of "...look ma, I'm a frickin' ARTIST now! LOVE ME! LOVE ME111!!!!!11!!!" Seen from that angle, can you understand now why it is that so many in the CG art community have a distaste for Poser-only results? It's like some seven-year-old kid busting into an art competition with a glued-together macaroni + glitter + A4 lash-up, and demanding equal respect among the entries. Trust me - the grown-ups are not amused. Now if you took that macaroni and glitter and built it into a 10-foot tall sculpture of fine detail that actually told a story? Okay... that would get some attention and respect. But that ain't what's coming out of most Poser installs, folks. You want to impress folks now (esp. in the larger community)? Then get off your butts and stretch your minds. Do something that shows you've grown a bit. Do something that shows you're not just playing with a digital barbie-doll set. Here's a few bits and tips, in no particular order, to get the majority of you started for anything that you might someday want to point at and call art: * Get your own backgrounds - with your own camera. Or with Photoshop - your own work, in other words. * Never use a light set... EVER! Put your own lights in there. If you're going to be playing with IBL, then build your own photographs or light maps, instead of the handful that everybody else seems to rely on. Any basic lighting tutorial (in ANY medium) is well worth reading, but the vast majority of stuff in this joint looks as if no one has ever read one. * Never buy a pose set... why? Because THE VERY NAME OF THE PROGRAM -- "POSER" -- SHOULD CLUE YOU IN THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO! If you must, use only partial poses as a starting point. Take DAZ|Studio's PowerPose plugin (it't free and comes with the proggy) and give it a bang-around. If you're going to pose anything, at least do me one favor: Please think about what that character is doing, what it is 'feeling' at the moment, and may be about to do - and take every body part into consideration, going over each one. Especially the face and eyes, please. * as a corollary of the above - you have dials for moving nearly every frickin' body part [i]including the eyes[/i]... would you do us all a favor and put more than just a couple of them to use? * ...will you do us all a favor and give some thought to composition, and not just of the "she'll be in this canned pose floating four inches off the floor" kind? Try to figure out WTF kind of story you're trying to tell before you put it together. Use a pencil and a sketch pad and use stick figures to explain it on paper to yourself if you can't draw. * make your own skin texture sometime. See how it turns out. No, seriously... try it sometime. I realize that half the merchants in here can't even do that without buying/swiping someone else's 'resource kit', but this'll be your golden opportunity to shine, and to do something useful. * Okay, if that was too tough, then how about making your own clothing textures? Don't even bother using someone else's. While you're at it, make your own transparency maps for them, and turn what you've got into whole different clothing... the things are damned easy to make, y'know? ...someday, you might even go through life without ever having the humiliation of buying a 'texture pack' again. * make your own unique character from a base figure, without resorting to buying someone else's and then just tweaking a few dials. Please. For me? * get a free modelling program (Wings ferinstance, or Amapi), and build your own set, your own props. It doesn't require a degree in graphic arts to build a few primitives tweaked out to resemble whatever it is you're trying to make. Once you've mastered that, get some clothing together, and make a bit. This way you don't have to go out and buy a bit of clothing and the 48 zillion add-on texture kits for it just to try to stand out. * Make your human-looking figures... umm, human. Enlarge Vicki 3's head a bit, shrink the tits, and for the love of Pete make 'em sag if she's not 15 yrs old or siliconed-up. And giver her a few pounds, or at least a set of love handles. And by the way, why do the vast majority of female figures in this joint have lips that look like an inflamed horse's anus? Unless you live on Planet ChapStick, human lips don't look like that! * Tell a story with the thing, even if it's a vague one. Just sticking a wood-elf into a bunch of trees in a dramatic sword-swinging pose ain't going to mean jack sh!t. If the figure is staring dead-on at the viewer and it ain't a pornographic render, at least try and show the viewer WHY with the rest of the scene elements. Make the viewer's eyes do some work in a good way, not by forcing them to jack around randomly in a vain attempt to discover WTF is going on in the image... Finally, Poser can be a movie camera of sorts (esp. when arguing about pre-made sets and props, vs. home-built, etc), but keep this in mind: For a movie to not be a total piece of shite that is best ignored, it has to tell a story. If you're going to compare Poser to a movie camera, at least have the sense to know what a movie camera is used for. Okay, that should hold ye, at least for now. Just do me one favor, if nothing else. Please? Pretty Please? In the future, if you're going to jump at someone for dissing poser (whether they really are or not), at least take the time to see their side of the story, and try to understand WHY there's so much frustration out there. And if you're going to argue in favor of it, at least show some intelligence and do so with reasoning, not just lash blindly out at anyone and everyone who expresses exasperation at their art site being flooded with purile insta-rendered results. Thx muchly in advance, /P

dang..came off better than I thought..;) 
Don't feel guilty about much of the above, because I don't know how to use light sets. Do use Pose sets for getting in the ballpark. Model my backgrounds (if I could get around the Poser 'melted buttah effect', I'd actually import them..;)

Bryce backgrounds aren't that hard, unless you go for volumetric textures (that's not hard either, just takes more patience than most folks have..;)

Try to get things mixed up in terms of clothing, accessories, etc., but half the battle is remembering what the shoes are called, what the pants are called, what the hair is called (you see where it's going..;) still have to load those database and Poser item search programs..;)

Frankly, Bryce renders take so long, I usually make up the story while I'm rendering. It just goes down as prose..;)

looks like ignorance has freed me from a good thrashing..;)

 

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Nice rant! :0)

Coherent and reasoned...

Klutz :0)

********************************************************************************************************************

Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

I am bookmarking this, or printing it out and putting it on my bulletin board.  One of the best things I have ever read.

This actually makes me feel really good (instead of like a complete chump) for trying to paint my own textures and model my own clothing and props.  Granted, I am using some packaged stuff I purchased, but then I'm sitting down and tweaking the holy hell out of it.  And it takes me forever ... and now I feel absolutely wonderful for putting in the effort because ...

someone with a brain appreciates it.

Makes it worth every second of the time it took.

Could be worse, could be raining.

First off, Poser isn't a fscking camera, it is an application.

An analogy is a comparison between two different things, in order to highlight some form of similarity.

In an effort to express what poser is, the best analogy I have found is that it is like virtual photography. This allows me to express the function of poser in a way that most people can grasp.

I do find it interesting that you passionately disparage the comparison of poser to photography then conclude by saying “Poser can be a movie camera of sorts”.

By your implied definition of “art” this rant does not appear to be aimed at me, unfortunately, those who should read it are likely people who do not read the forums.

Another unfortunate fact; “real artists” cannot control what other do with their chosen medium.

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

And what with Wings3d, Blender and anim8tor being free, there is really no excuse for not at lest giving it a try. (for those interested, in the wings3d forum, if you click on the banner at the top of the page it will take you to the site where you download wings3d).

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

Unless you have that python set by Philc (I forget the name) Poser doesn't come with a "Make Art" button, I mean you can't just click a few buttons & have everything in place to make a masterpiece like the "airheads" on DubiousArt seem to think.

Even today you have to work at it to get anything out of poser without it looking like plastic, just because the available addons are looking better doesn't make Poser any easier to use, it hasn't actually changed much at all since I started using it with V1.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

I feel ashamed and belittled.

I do EVERYTHING that Penguinisto has listed.

Guess I must not be a good POSER Consu...err, Artist, then,  :-(

Heck, I even just started a thread suggesting that Vicky might be a tiny little bit ...gasp...unrealistic.
(Which promptly made some folks go ballistic. LOL)

Oh my.

And I not only use WINGS, I ALSO have Silo and just started using Z-Brush.

And there is that character I´m tweaking and modifying for almost a year now, you know.
Several dozend magnets and even custom made expression morphs, just to get it right.

i mean, it really started quite innocently with a morph here and a morph there. And all of a sudden I wanted to do MY OWN STUFF.

Dam´ Dr Geep and his tutorials.  :-(

Looks I better start saving my pennies to buy MAX and become ONE OF TEH BIG BOYS.

I´m really REALLY sorry to dissapoint you all, my fellow Poser comrades.

Please think kindly of me when you buy your next premade pose pack.

;-)

Stahlratte

Why do so many people working with higher end apps find it so difficult to comprehend that Poser and D/S are used by a wide variety of users with very differing levels of skill and intent. The apps are cheap (relatively) which means that just about anyone with enough money to have a good weekend on the town can instead afford to buy into a 3d hobby and make pictures - and have some fun. At the same time there are many using Poser who do model and tweak meshes, create unique textures and spend long hours creating incredibly detailed and accomplished images with impressive narratives.
This pervading attitude that Poser=crap says to me one thing only - that those who ascribe to that view are more concerned with disrespecting people using a different set of tools rather than having the confidence to fully appraise their own accomplishments (or lack of) with their own toolsets. This IMO is a lazy and immature approach, indicative of creative insecurity and certainly won't make anyone more accomplished in their chosen field of study.
While I find many of the original poster's points of advice generally valid and useful the tone and overiding sentiment is, I'm sure to many, patronising and derogatory.
Is it so hard to accept that some just want to enjoy using Poser as a hobby?
Is it so hard to accept that others can use the same app to create professional and stunning visual work?
Why this need to tell others what to do?

I can understand all kinds of frustrations, but surely those that do everything from modelling to rendering can judge their work on those merits without having to resort to disrespecting Poser users.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

if 3D snobs have concluded that poser is crap, I tend to agree their feelings are misplaced. they should blame the players, not the game. the software is now capable of excellent renders rivalling apps costing 10X as much. whilst most of the poser renders in the gallery here are not worth looking at IMVHO, this is due to user error:

• failure to apply correct lighting
• failure to apply correct shadows
• failure to fix bad joint bending
• failure to use backgrounds or props correctly
• failure to adjust facial expression
• failure to read the manual
• failure to read tutorials

with the next generation of models, the joint problem may be eliminated, and the lighting and shadows problems may be reduced in P7, but the other stuff is still gonna be a problem.

*'they should blame the players, not the game.'

*I don't see the point in doing this even. What does it matter if many just load up a figure and press render. Who does that hurt?
There are plenty who do use all of the features in Poser to their fullest potential who can attest to it's validity (if that is required) as a 3d figure and scene renderer.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Terrific rant - something I need to read every day, just to convince myself that I might, one day, just maybe produce something worthwhile. At least I do some of that stuff (got a weakness for pose packs, but otherwise...).

Seriously, this is a good, reasoned argument IMO.

Steve

Art is art. Who cares what you use to achieve the final result. The end result is still the same.... freaking art!

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Carodan,

your right, and I completely agree with you.

While I guess I fit into that "Poser Power User" scheme that Pengo describes, I still think that using Poser just for fun is a valid reason.

I think the REAL reason why most "professionals" hate Poser is....

....they really hate having the same hobby as their mom.

;-)

I mean, if you were a l33t m4x u$3r, would you want to discuss Vicky´s shoulder problems with your mom ?
Or help her with the Poser lights ?

All of the sudden the cool job at Pixxar you´re dreaming of doesn´t seem to be quite as cool, does it ?

First you pay dearly for a membership to that exclusive CGI-Artist club, (Or at least show your h4ck3r skills by installing that warezd copy of Max), only to find that all the riffraff has sneaked in through the kitchen door ?

And instead of working hard and improving their SKILLZ, those pesky Poser users  just party all day long and have a generally good time ?

OF COURSE THEY ARE PSSD ! LOLZ !

So what ?

Sticks and stones I say...

I enjoy my poser and my mostly lowbrow "art", and don´t mind all the black velvet elvis...errr, Poser art pictures in the galleries.
If people have fun doing them, let them I say.
If people can´t be bothered to actually POSE a character, I think it´s sad, but it´s not my money they spend for pose sets.

But I also know that most people at CG-Talk DO have excellent skills and I wouldn´t dare posting anything I´ve made unless I´m sure it´d be up to the expected standard.

Stahlratte

Well I simply have to disogree with just about everything MR. Penguinisto said.  Why?  Here´s my reasoning:

First off, art shouldn´t be measured in time and effort.  I know that CG artists take a LOT of time perfecting their images and sometime the results are amazing.  But unless you have some experience in CG art, they can seem extremely dull.  

If you browse the Maya or Max galleries most of the images are WIP´s or single objects.  I´d rather see another image of Vicky in a temple then another image of a wineglass on a wooden table, no matter how long it took to model it!

As for the helpful tips that Penguinisto** **suggested, I really find it annoying when people include words like "Never do that..." when talking about art.  Although it can be good to restrict yourself to progress or try something new, you shouldn't have it as a rule not to do or use something.
If you want to impress someone (and I´m not talking ONLY about the almighty CG artists), take time and pride in what you do.  

You see, alot of us aren´t doing images to show off to other artists.  We´re doing it for our own amusement.  I don´t care if anyone can do what I do better in a more advanced application.  It doesn´t make him better then me or a better artist.

I´m gonna stop ranting about this now as my brain´s starting to hurt.

Cheers, Vestmann

 Vestmann's Gallery

"Photography is the art of the tangible, of reality. It is a moment in time"

Oh really? How about still life’s? How about portraiture? Define "tangible." Is a sunset tangible? Is a rainbow tangible?

And photography IS NOT ART. You take a device (camera) point it at something tangible that you did not create and push a button. Granted, you can manipulate the light, or tweak the depth of field to get a little blur, but you DID NOT CREATE anything. You took a picture. A monkey could walk up right behind you and press the button and get the same result.

Practice what you preach. Grab a brush, some paints, stretch your own canvas, learn some color theory and paint "a moment in time," then you created something that was not there. Or, let's see the Poser character that you created.

And if people here enjoy rendering without having built their own props and characters and all, then let them enjoy it. Just because you bought an automatic and took a photography class at city college, doesn't give you the right to make people feel bad about something they enjoy.

Bottom line, if someone can stack toilets and call it art, then so the simplest of renders.

Ah, refreshing! Truth that is. Penguinisto, this rant provides a timely wake-up call to me. I have been nearing the event horizon! I used to make nearly all my own content. However, having joined the Platinum Club about six months ago to get Hexagon for cheap, I've found myself slowly (lazily) sinking into the abyss of $2 prepared content. Sure there is a time and place for bought stuff. For example, under a tight deadline for a commercial job, my client couldn't care less where the clothes or poses come from, as long as the message and the copyright are both clear. But to post that same crap as art, on an art site... 8-/ Yes, art is art, but I hold a higher personal standard of what art is than what I've been living up to recently. Anyway, thanks Peng for the meaningful rant - all is good. Now, off to CREATE something...anything.

ahem

As a reminder, debating the issue is fine.  Let's not see this thread de-evolve into a thread full of personal attacks, pretty please ;)

Jeni

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Penguinisto, That was an awesome rant and ITA with you.

Well, in my opinion (and that’s all it is), Poser is just an application or tool, just like anything else. It is neither bad or nor good. I think there is an inherent fallacy in linking the mode or method of creation with any sort of artistic merit, as a lot of these kinds of arguments seem to say to me.

** A creative artist can make good art in any medium; true art transcends the medium used to create it.**

To me, arguing if Poser art is “real” art or not vs another 3D package (or if something that is hand drawn is more valid artistically than a photograph) is missing the whole point. How something was made doesn’t make it art. If a piece (in whatever medium) speaks to you, then its art.

I think, Penguinisto, you are right to encourage creativity in composition, but I think you’re confusing the technical with the artistic. If everything has to be “originally” created  in order for it to be valid; then according to that logic why should anyone even bother with using any pre-made content (including base figures) at all? Where would it end or begin?

If someone makes an interesting work, I don’t really care if I can pick out where everything came from or how it was created if it speaks to me.

** As a way of analogy, would you enjoy a meal at a fine restaurant any more or less if you had known that the chef had personally grown all the ingredients? If the point is to get a good meal; why would it matter? Would a song be any more or less enjoyable if you learned that the musician took 10 minutes to write it and used a band and a producer, or took 10 years to compose it and played every instrument themselves? Again, if the merits of the piece are in the end result, who cares about the process of getting there?**

Years ago I worked for some time in a photostudio where they made illustrations for dutch interiormagazines. As I remembered, the way they they set up the scene, reminded me a lot like I set up Poser-scenes today. They strolled around the country to pic up all kinds of furniture, seats, tables, lamps, fabrics you name it, and they built a decor with a lot of tricks to make it look like a real diningroom, kitchen, bathroom whatever. They put up lights and spots of different color and shapes. Set camera positions, lenses and filters. And sometimes they used a model, discussed with him or her what kind of clothes to wear, where how to sit or stand. I've seen the results and if you didn't knew it you couldn't see that is was a studio picture. And I think the same analogy goes for movie or television makers and even sometimes glamour-photography (not everything) As you see the similarity with poser is obvious.

This similarity was one the reasons why I once compaired in an other thread Poser with photography, I think that to be more specific: I had to say: Studiophotography. If you take photography in common, is much more extended: fashionphotography, pressphotography, documentaries and so on and  that, my dear friends, you cannot compare with poser.
 
But it's same as with poser, everyone can use a camera but it takes years to get a silver one.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

My initial response was to agree with Penginisto, but then I began to disagree (in part).

I am glad I waited before responding.

It boils down to this (at least for me). With POSER the application, there is a ease of use that, Joe or Jane Noobie (Hiya folks!) can click to load up a model, click for a MAT, click for a Set/Prop/Lights and click for a render and be very proud of that. Heck, DAZ|Studio is free and so are base Mike/Vicky and Aiko3.

The same application can be used by those who have some training in some other artistic medium and find that same ease of use to quickly get to point B or C faster than if they did it the "old-fashioned" way.

Back in the day (when the ponies were pink, everyone knew your name and sharing was acutally caring [and encouraged]) the Poser Community was small. So the bar would be raised every so often. Folks were encouraged to try and raise the bar for themselves. As Penuinisto noted the shift occoured 2002-2003 when the great wave of Commercialism struck. It was a good time to be had for sure (for some). Loads of new users to Poser were coming in and if you could make a buck, no prob. But the sense of a small community was somewhat lost. We now have these neighborhoods in PoserVille. The controversy of the polling for Best/Top 20 artists where now your friends come in a go "W00T! AWESOME RENDER" only because you did the same for them. The community fractured.  Note I am not blaming those who were able to go pro. As communities grow and change so do their identies.

With the rise of the many packages, you find that its easier to use than to tweak. The cream of the artists products have risen to the top, alas, there are too few of these and with this large base of users, those are the sets/packages/clothing models that are going to be used. Unless you can make a texture pack (or learned how to putz around in the Mateials Room) to change colors so your canned pose of Character X wearing popular Clothing Y doesn't quite look the same as the others ("Chartruese?? Where the heck did you get Chartruese from? That's Clothing Y?? It looks so different! In Chartruese!")

The learning curve (not so much the expense curve with Wings/Blender/$1.99 Hexagon  et al.,) is what will hold some back. Some will take the plunge.

Is the future financial reward (I wont be able to get that Porsche but, I can buy so-and-so's stuff 'til I can do it on my own!") the reason why they will jump in the pool?

Is it the ability to "get propX made because, noone has the TIME to do it for me, and it will be expensive to have commisioned"? the reason?

Is it ego? "I just know that I can get my next render to look as good as so-and-so's. Lemme examine how they did that?" (Seems like back in the day of the pink poines you could ask and actually find out how it was done!)

There are some who due to time, or just contentment be willing to point, click and render!

Did you all see the November issue of 2DArtist? Check out pages 56-57 starting on p56 under the subhead References. 

Egad! This featured artist uses Daz|Studio as a reference tool! Note the reasons for possibly doing this!!!

So dlfurman. All of that typing for what? 
Understand this: The Poser landscape is now vast and there are going to be ALL KINDS OF USERS using this program. There are going to be folks who are going to step up their game. There are going to be follks who are content where they are. There are going to folks in between. We have to just deal with it. And if you personally decide that you want to move to a new PoserVille neighborhood, power and ability to ya!  Just as in the non-electronic artistic media, the debate over what is art has raged it will too, rage here. You may have to invest a little more $$$ to get that help that used to be available free, you may have to check out those free tutorials and play with them beyond what is given. But you here to stay.

Welcome to PoserVille!

PS: Maybe we should go and tell that guy who spend $K's on a high end 3D package learning to do a 3d still life that they suck and should try non-organic forms instead.

Nah!  I have "Art" to do ! ;)

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

'I think the REAL reason why most "professionals" hate Poser is....

....they really hate having the same hobby as their mom.'

:lol:  'Mom, I need help with a poke-through problem' :lol:

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

I would like to point out that I am the person who used the Photography analogy on the Deviant art site.

I stand by my analogy.

"As a guy who has seriously delved into photography, I've come to appreciate the differences, and buddy, they are VAST."

I'm not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but I not only have worked as a pro photographer for more than a decade, I am also a professional Film and Television Editor and graphic artist.  When I say that Poser is akin to a Camera I know what I am speaking of.

In the conclusion of the rant, I can see you do too.

That said, I agree with many of your fine points.

Everyone can benefit from trying their hands at modelling, texturing and lighting.  Everyone can benefit from learning aobut composition and the finer nuances of the technical options in their software.

I've seen exceptional art from people who have just picked up the program and don't know squat about IBL, AO, Depth of Field, Volumetrics and so.  They just have a vision and using whatever default freebies and included props they create something that says something.

I've seen V3 used in brilliant POV Ray and Maya scenes where the artists took the time to sculpt every last building, vehicle, stick of furniture and hand paint every texture, yet s/he hasn't applied one morph or changed one thing about the default V3.

The high and mighty opinion that art can only be created by an elite group of people who have some archane know-how is a bunch of utter crap.

Art is part of the human condition and is something that should be accessible to everyone.

Instead of wandering around insulting people we should be trying to help people achieve their visions, communicate their passions and create their art.

I've seen a lot of photography that I would never qualify as art.  I've seen a  lot of Poserwork, 3D Studio Max work, ink drawings and so on that I would never qualify as art.  But in the end, my opinion does not make the other person's effort any less valid.  

In the end if someone doesn't like a piece, they are free to not look at it.

ThrommArcadia, thank you for that. You said all of the things I wanted to but was too steamed to get out the first time around... (got deleted. blush). I was another one in the other thread making the photo analogy and I too stand by it. If I weren't so irritated by the preachy manner of the first post I might have been able to explain myself better. I find it most galling that people find it so easy to make vast and grossly exaggerated claims about what crap Poser art is, in the face of Photography or other kinds of art. It is even more annoying when the persons doing the ranting do not appear to be practicing what they preach (but I won't go there because i don't want to get slapped by Karen again). Most of those "10 commandments of art" sounding statements above could be applied to ANY art form, not just poser. Come on, you think the first thing the guys who got the first cameras did was that much better? There are tons of nudie pictures in those old tin pictures from the olden days. Heck, even my grandpa, amateur photographer that he was had a few risque pictures of my grandma from before my mom was born. They are pretty much run of the mill "she might as well have been in a temple with a sword in her hand" sorts of pictures. But for him they were art and they had meaning. I don't think it is FAIR to say that just because somebody uses some pre-made models or backgrounds that they don't know what the blazes they are doing and saying it that way makes it sound flat out insulting to the poser community as a whole. How many people actually make ALL their own stuff for poser anymore? And what's more, why should they? And who is to say they are less of an artist if they don't create every little thing by hand? Many of the points in the first post were valid, it is such a shame that they had to be pushed out in such an insulting manner...

Great rant.  I agree with some, and disagree with other points.  Pushing yourself creatively is a good thing, no matter who says it.  I got WIngs3d, shortly after getting poser 6 and have made props of my own.  I've done tons of textures as well, and it's a stone hoot to do.

As much as I do my own stuff, I still use other people's stuff,too.  To be blunt--why re-invent the wheel?  If something is close enough, use it; take it move it, morph it, melt it, make it your own and let your muse help you out.

I've always been an artist, and the simile that I use is colored pencils. I don't CARE who made them.  If I bought it--it's MY damned pencil.  It IS up to me what I draw with it.

EVEN if the big boys are oil-painting, or whatever. :lol:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

HindSightStudios wrote; " And photography IS NOT ART." Well then, you should explain that to all the people who spend tens of thousands of dollars or more on fine art photographs. "A monkey could walk up right behind you and press the button and get the same result. " In over 15 years as a professional photographer, I have yet seen a single monkey make the kind of money that I do. :) It's not what you use, it's how you use it. Coldrake

Right on Coldrake!

I had forgotten to reply to the "photography not art" comment by HindSight in my post, but you've covered the bases.

"It's not what you use, it's how you use it."

Absolutely true and I think that was my point in my first post about comparing Poser to Photography, maybe I should have been more clear.

Now, if you will all excuse me, I have a Naked Vicky waiting...

Well, I don't know what to say.  I'm not a modeller or a texturist.  I've tried both and don't have the gift for it.  I don't postwork hair or clothing.  I have bought or downloaded lights, poses, figures, scenes, and props although I try to enhance their appearance by tweaking the dial settings and playing with material settings using shader nodes.  I create HDR lighting schemes from my own photos and those of others.  At the end of the day, I like many of the images that I have created.  Whether that makes me an artist or not I leave that up to others to decide...

PapaBlueMarlin, I just looked in your gallery and you do good work! I love your creatures and the laboratory is excellent work! Don't let this thread get you down. The hypocritical self-indulgence of the rant is the same prattle that says you are not a real painter unless you mix your paint from scratch with colors that you wrought from the earth with your own hands. Or that photography isn't art because you don't "make" anything. rolls eyes Art is in the eye of the artist, any other eyes that happen to enjoy what you do, that's just a bonus! My eyes were very happy in your gallery today! :-) Kiera

So Coldrake, you say:

"Well then, you should explain that to all the people who spend tens of thousands of dollars or more on fine art photographs."

I guess you got me there.  If people spend money on something, it must be art.

Quote - I would like to point out that I am the person who used the Photography analogy on the Deviant art site.

I stand by my analogy.

"As a guy who has seriously delved into photography, I've come to appreciate the differences, and buddy, they are VAST."

I'm not going to get into a p*ssing contest with you, but I not only have worked as a pro photographer for more than a decade, I am also a professional Film and Television Editor and graphic artist.  When I say that Poser is akin to a Camera I know what I am speaking of.

In the conclusion of the rant, I can see you do too.

That said, I agree with many of your fine points.

Everyone can benefit from trying their hands at modelling, texturing and lighting.  Everyone can benefit from learning aobut composition and the finer nuances of the technical options in their software.

I've seen exceptional art from people who have just picked up the program and don't know squat about IBL, AO, Depth of Field, Volumetrics and so.  They just have a vision and using whatever default freebies and included props they create something that says something.

I've seen V3 used in brilliant POV Ray and Maya scenes where the artists took the time to sculpt every last building, vehicle, stick of furniture and hand paint every texture, yet s/he hasn't applied one morph or changed one thing about the default V3.

The high and mighty opinion that art can only be created by an elite group of people who have some archane know-how is a bunch of utter crap.

Art is part of the human condition and is something that should be accessible to everyone.

Instead of wandering around insulting people we should be trying to help people achieve their visions, communicate their passions and create their art.

I've seen a lot of photography that I would never qualify as art.  I've seen a  lot of Poserwork, 3D Studio Max work, ink drawings and so on that I would never qualify as art.  But in the end, my opinion does not make the other person's effort any less valid.  

In the end if someone doesn't like a piece, they are free to not look at it.

Excellent reply, couldn't have said it better myself!

Artists or "so called artists" have some of the most extreme and demanding personalities in society, so it's no wonder we see extreme posts from time to time. Just because you have a personal perspective/feeling/view/insight, doesn't mean it's the only one and that everyone should follow it

I totally agree that you should always be pushing yourself to learn and improve your skills, this should apply to everyday life as well. Art should be about veiwing something that moves you, not about the technical aspect behind it. If a person gets emotional over naked vickie in a temple with a sword, who are we to tell him that isn't art. In many cases the person shouldn't even know the technical aspects of how it came about as it will probably take away from the experience.  Everyone here can view the work of the masters in an art gallery and all get a different experience from it.

Instead of chastising those that do use "canned" content in a program that makes great used of "canned" options, look at it as a stepping stone to more advanced options and even go so far as to help them achieve this lofty goal, we all had to start somewhere.

Regards, Michael

My DeviantArt page

i just read this...
and i agree with a lot of it.
there is so much more to it than pushing dials and so forth. lighting alone can take you a lifetime to perfect...and what's perfect?

i truely believe that for real artisit's this has never been a problem. you can identify what is work and what isn't rather quickly...no need to bonk the naive lad on the head is there? if someone is open to trying to improve their craft, then i can appreciate that and we all started somewhere. but if i can't draw a circle and i want to get by with the bare necessities of available programs and call it art...then you are cheating yourself; not me.
no one ever said art is easy.

Comitted to excellence through art.

i agree with poser being akin to as a photograph and/or camera would be.

to me it's the same difference that has been stated in this whole thread. if you have an artistic sense then you look for the odd angles, the right lighting, the great scene. you know what's good, you just have to capture it. with poser/3d programs you can position/light everyone just as you see in your mind...still a capture of a great scene has to take place; it just doesn't happen naturally.

jmo.

Comitted to excellence through art.

i think the rant in the original post covers about any kind of artisic media you could think of.  learn and evolve. for the most i don't look on it as a critique of poser or art but of the human condition of stasis. i think all of us are guilty of it at times. the belief we can't improve or that we're already that good we have no need to. the fear perhaps that we can't improve.  i know this. if we wish to do anything to the best of our ability we need to learn and evolve. we need to get beyond our stasis where we're happy with what we're doing. most of the best poser work comes from those who bothered to learn what the app can do, those who learned through tuts or mishap to stretch it using only what it has to offer. sadly i'm not one of those people. i'd sooner make something ugly of my own. i'm not good enough with poser to create anything worthwhile in it. i could never do what pap blue does or what many other poser users do. 

a long while ago i used to do poetry. most of the people that did had the same mind set that what ever was churned out was art or poetry. i'd say most of them wouldn't know what poetry was if it slapped them in the face like a wet fish. the same in mind applies to many poser users. it's all well and good that they enjoy what they do. enjoying is the major reason why we do things. but to then state .."i'm an artist" is balderdash. i wrote peotry but i was never a poet. i drive my car fast but i'm not a racing driver. i cook food but i'm no chef. use poser to find or get enjoyment. but to enhance that enjoyment learn how to do it better, to use it the best you can.  the better your knowledge the more you'll enjoy using it. why do we take umbridge at one persons opinion. i thought it had many valid points. if anything i'd personally use a post like  that to inspire me to create better renders. forget about the i am an artist stuff and delve into the program as deep as you can.  when i look at some of the work done in poser i'm astounded at the quality. some exellent, some mediocre and and quiet a lot average. mine would come in the latter catogory.  jmo

billy

 

Thank you for a substantial and thought provoking post, Peng.

 

Suffice it to say, you speak of many of my concerns.

 

Here’s my take on the Photography/Poser analogy.

 

I have friends who are professional photographers. Indeed, I have just begun studying traditional Black and White Photography with one of them.

 

What Poser is, is the equivalent of a low-end digital camera in the hands of a person who doesn’t know how to use a regular camera. Everything is quick, inexpensive, immediately importable into Photoshop, and ultimately disposable.

 

As a learning tool, that’s fine. Go for it. Shoot your neighbor. Shoot your dog. Shoot your new collectable Star Wars miniature. Shoot for the moon.

 

But no one who actually knows jack hoot about photography will actually look at your work as anything but the adventures of an amateur.

 

“What, because my camera only shoots 4.2 mega-pixels? Is that the problem?"

 

No.

 

“Oh, it’s because it’s digital, and not traditional processing.”

 

Strike two.

 

“Oh, I get it...I should have invented the camera, and developed the printing process, and made friends with hoity-toity artists...."

 

Thank you for playing. Please accept this 32-megabyte memory card as a consolation prize...

 

The problem is that people do not know how to approach a scene. Instead, they grab a credit card. The lighting is off? Oh, well I’ll head over to ___ and grab a set there.

 

The figure looks wrong? Must be the morph package...Maybe the Glenda 2 figure has more forgiving joint parameters.

 

The other day at the DAZ forums, there was a thread about sketching. I was struck by how many people said that they did not sketch scenes beforehand.

 

“It’s too hard”

 

“I can’t draw”

 

“I figure messing with the machine is like sketching”

 

(I am grossly paraphrasing here)

 

Here’s a quick clue-in. A sketch doesn’t have to look “good”.

 

Ever see a building under construction? There are wooden stakes everywhere, orange traffic cones, ugly yellow scaffolds, and big green dumpsters, not to mention the ubiquitous blue porta-potties, in a veritable sea of brown mud...

 

Looks pretty nasty. That’s because it ISN’T the finished building.

 

Now what I just wrote was loaded. Tell me true, folks, couldn’t you see that scene in your mind’s eye?

 

Of course you did. That’s what a sketch is. It’s an arrangement of simple symbols to work with in order to create a scene.

 

Any man, woman or child in this forum could create that construction scene on scrap paper with a half dozen crayons..

 

But here’s the kicker...Almost no-one actually does.

 

Instead, people immediately dig through eight gigs of runtime, of seven and a half pages of Freestuff, DAZ specials, or Content Paradise to find and purchase these items.

 

And as a result, with everyone using the same materials, from the same vendors, with the same camera and light settings, the pieces become virtually interchangeable.

 

This is one of the most important points of what Peng has written here, Study this closely.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Just a few quick thoughts from little me:

Bah !  I'm very happy with tinkering about inside Poser and DAZ Studio, and Hexagon and Shade and Bryce...  I don't care squat....

"they invested their own imaginations and creativity into their results."
quoting original message which started this thread

Agrrreeee !!

I am very grateful that there are freebie-makiers and merchants who took the pain and sweat out  of re-inventing the wheel for me, for some things I want to include in my 3D scenes.  Sure, I'd like to "pwn" these items a bit (to use a kiddie-tech term) and give them a little artistic flavour of my own - so that the effect isn't too "canned", but instead sits nicely with what I want in my scene.

( As for dealing with emotionally-hypersensitive artists from non-Poser or non-3DCG media, call me a conflict-avoider, but I don't like wasting my time and energy on some long-drawn-out nasty slanging match with those types.  Having said that, I am supportive of those who are very tuned-in to their art in non-3D media.  It's just that I don't see any point in entering a fray of that nature.  My real-life friends are into real-life Chinese brush painting, watercolours, acrylics, photography, etc.)

Eternal Hobbyist

 

My turn.  the rant was interesting, and touched on issues that I feel strongly about, mostly that the image should tell a story, convey a feeling, or at the very least, document a moment.  reading the rant, I xcame to a conclusion that Penguinisto was this great artist with a great breadth of experience.  So, before I went through the rest of the thread I decided to check out the gallery, only to find that the images were nice, but not profound.  In the past, people have slammed my work, giving me advice on how i could "IMPROVE" it to their liking, and then when I check their galleries, I find out that they had never posted anything.  I'm glad that Penguinisto has posted some images to add backing to the rant....... however,
and there's always a however.........
check that annoying thing in the top left corner of this page, saying that this is an artist community.  By slamming new artists with the macaroni analogies is petty and insulting.  I tell my students when I do a workshop that a camera is merely a hammer, a computer is merely an anvil.  granted they are very delicate and expensive hammers and anvils but base tools none the less.
What you do with the tools is what makes you "an artist".  I didn't call myself an artist until someone else called me an artist.  
I too am tired of the Nude Vicky in a temple with a sword ( a while ago I posted a Nude Posette with a sword in protest), but then again, I don't look at those images.  What I look for is meat, substance, solid, depth.
when I post, there's a reason I post.  I have created something that I wish to share.
what could be truer than that.
rant and rave all you want, but remember, we are a community.
sorry, gotta go, Dr. Who is on.

As I love a good rant and just love to stir the pot, here are my two cents worth (although I wouldn't give you squat for my opinion).  First and foremost, Poser art is just that, POSER art.  It in no way compares to painting, charcol/pencil/ink drawings, and it in no way compares to photography.  I have used all of the above mediums except paint (if it doesn't come in a can, I suck at it) and have found enjoyment in all of them.  Each and every 3D/CG program takes talent to use and use properly.  Here is where I think our illustrious starter of this was hinting at.  I have been a member of Renderosity for years, and throughout those years I have saved a total of 8 renders that others have done, period.  I in no way equate myself to be a top level user of Poser as working 45 hour work weeks and trying to maintain a life tend to limit the attention necessary to attain that level.  What I have seen, majority wise, on Poser renders is exactly what is stated in the initial post, people slap down a figure, throw some boobs on her and click render.  No effort is made to ensure that when the figure is grabbing an object, say a sword, that the figure is actually holding the sword and the sword isn't melded in the fingers.  Or to take the time to pose the hair or clothing so that half of it isn't cutting the figure in half.  The one I hate the most, and there is a certain artist who does this with almost all their work is to render a face, slap it on a figure from someone elses drawing or photograph and claim it was rendered in Poser.   Last of all folks, if you are going to post your work on a dedicated CG site which showcases work using 3D Max/Maya/Lightwave/etc, take the time to make your work shine and show that you have pride in what you do because when you don't, what the world sees from the work of one, they may equate it as the work of all.

Nevr argue with an idiot, they will only drag you down to their level and beat you with their expertise.

not to split hairs but it says art community which is something completely different to an artists community. whilst an artists community is a community of artists. an art community can have non artists in it. people who appreciate art or aspire to it. people who want to learn to be an artist. people who think they're an artist and the list goes on. which kinda dismantles the however. oops

that said i agree that new artists or those wishing to become artists should be nurtured and not neutered. and i also agree that anything an artist uses to create art is merely a tool. what i don't see is many agreeing that having or using an artists tool set doesn't necesarily make the user an artist. in fact in the main i see people saying...i use the artists toolset (poser) therefore i am an artist. 
if my last statement holds true then sorry but the poser world has a lot of delusional people paying rent. maybe it's this that pisses off the so called real artists. personally it doesn't bother me cos i'm only a piss artist

billy

Attached Link: http://excalibur.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1339042

Poser = Crap

I have to disagree. It's all how you use the tools. I love Poser. I spend hours on end creating my scenes, then more hours getting the lighting just so, and yes, from premade sets that get me started, moving, adjusting, until they are exactly the way I want them. More hours to make sure that pose is just right, including hands, feet, eyes and expressions. More hours bringing in scenery, plants, trees, water, etc. and getting that placed. I've been able to take what I know as a traditional artists to much higher levels than I ever could before. I don't paint hair or clothing because I don't have to. I work full time so my time in Poser is precious. Yes, I do some postwork and that's so I can achieve the look I want from my renders, something that sets my art apart from the norm. And I even try to have my images convey something. So tell me my work is crap.

It's all how you use the tools you have.

FlyByNight

thats the trouble with genralising in a thread like this. everyone thinks it's aimed at them personally when it is'nt..

" So tell me my work is crap."

is the above a request or an order lol. 

as long as it's the best you can do why worry for god's sake. unless you want to be known as the great who is.

i'd buy a good piece of art if i could afford it and most of the stuff made in poser would'nt come close to connecting my hand to my wallet.  that said i have nothing but respect for anyone who tries there best to do something.  and if someone enjoys doing what it is they do i applaud them.  but when people put themselves on pedastals they can't possibly climb i become slightly amused...and no flyby night i'm not talking of you or any one in particular just in general.

i'm of the school that no endeavour is crap if it leads to greater endeavours

billy

my meager opinion is...I agree with this many of the points in this thread. It takes time to do do something intersting and not just be "plug and play"  so to speak.

Mostly art should come from something inside ones self...Any means of making art from high end programs to a chalk piece on chalkboard can be a starting point...So long as just a "stroke" so to speak, isn't going to be the end point all the time...
Then again what is abstract art...

It is a very interesting debate and it is nice reading all the opinions on the matter...

I guess my end meagerly opinion is....Do the art or renders or models that makes "you" , in general, feel good...just so you don't cringe away from that little bug that likes to poke at you to push the boundaries and try new things.  :biggrin:

Insanity is a waking state...Darkness is a being...Want To Play.........heheheheh

Quote -   Thank you for a substantial and thought provoking post, Peng.

 Suffice it to say, you speak of many of my concerns.

 Here’s my take on the Photography/Poser analogy.

 I have friends who are professional photographers. Indeed, I have just begun studying traditional Black and White Photography with one of them.

 What Poser is, is the equivalent of a low-end digital camera in the hands of a person who doesn’t know how to use a regular camera. Everything is quick, inexpensive, immediately importable into Photoshop, and ultimately disposable.

 As a learning tool, that’s fine. Go for it. Shoot your neighbor. Shoot your dog. Shoot your new collectable Star Wars miniature. Shoot for the moon.

 But no one who actually knows jack hoot about photography will actually look at your work as anything but the adventures of an amateur.

 “What, because my camera only shoots 4.2 mega-pixels? Is that the problem?"

 No.

 “Oh, it’s because it’s digital, and not traditional processing.”

 Strike two.

 “Oh, I get it...I should have invented the camera, and developed the printing process, and made friends with hoity-toity artists...."

 Thank you for playing. Please accept this 32-megabyte memory card as a consolation prize...

 The problem is that people do not know how to approach a scene. Instead, they grab a credit card. The lighting is off? Oh, well I’ll head over to ___ and grab a set there.

 The figure looks wrong? Must be the morph package...Maybe the Glenda 2 figure has more forgiving joint parameters.

 The other day at the DAZ forums, there was a thread about sketching. I was struck by how many people said that they did not sketch scenes beforehand.

 “It’s too hard”

 “I can’t draw”

 “I figure messing with the machine is like sketching”

 (I am grossly paraphrasing here)

 Here’s a quick clue-in. A sketch doesn’t have to look “good”.

 Ever see a building under construction? There are wooden stakes everywhere, orange traffic cones, ugly yellow scaffolds, and big green dumpsters, not to mention the ubiquitous blue porta-potties, in a veritable sea of brown mud...

 Looks pretty nasty. That’s because it ISN’T the finished building.

 Now what I just wrote was loaded. Tell me true, folks, couldn’t you see that scene in your mind’s eye?

 Of course you did. That’s what a sketch is. It’s an arrangement of simple symbols to work with in order to create a scene.

 Any man, woman or child in this forum could create that construction scene on scrap paper with a half dozen crayons..

 But here’s the kicker...Almost no-one actually does.

 Instead, people immediately dig through eight gigs of runtime, of seven and a half pages of Freestuff, DAZ specials, or Content Paradise to find and purchase these items.

 And as a result, with everyone using the same materials, from the same vendors, with the same camera and light settings, the pieces become virtually interchangeable.

This is one of the most important points of what Peng has written here, Study this closely.

 

 

Hmmm. 

In the 1980's, my secret ambition was to become an illustrator, to draw like the great old masters. But something was lacking in my brain that kept me from being able to visualize my characters' complex poses.

I knew what I wanted to draw, and I knew what was great when I saw it, but starting from a blank page just never worked. *

So what about folks who can't do that sketching thing huh?

"That texture set that seems just right and that light set looks like it might do the trick. What DM set do I use this time? And that background I stashed here. Ok, set this in place...oh yeah...this pose fits what I see in my minds eye....Control-R. Hey....that looks just like what I was trying to do. I'll look at the dials later, but for right now let me post this and see what folks think."

Is this a bad thing? 

So YOU are a good writer. (Yeah we couild all visualize your scene) Let's see the above in a sequence of Poser images?

The point of my previous post is the Poser Landscape is not what it used to be.  If you know the history of computers and real hackers you know what I mean. Stuff when from being available in a desk drawer to highly-prized top secret-uh-uh-aint-gonna-share-it intellectual property. There are a lot more TYPES of users and we will see differing TYPES of stuff done.

Poser is an application that can be used (and has been) professsionally to my favorite John and Jane Noobie spitting out their version of NVIATWAS. There is  going to be stuff that will drop jaws to stuff that will want to make you poke your eyes out. Nature of the beast.

One may fork our $$$ to have the family portrait done or those wedding shots, but that candid pic taken of Gramps loosing his dentures when we surprised him, or that shot made with the throwaway camera of the baby snuggled with the cat on the living room floor will be just as precious to the one taking those pics than the pictures done "professionally". 

You've perhaps have come up with a great idea. We can consider the stuff that looks canned, obviously from a newbie or someone who has yet to push themselves as "That person's SKETCHES". Nothing wrong with looking at folks SKETCHES now is there?

Of course that person may consider what they've done as ART.  
-=-=-=-=-=--=-=-=-

*This is a quote from "A message from Larry Weinberg" that can be found in the Poser 6 Reference Manual.  Here's this kicker. There are a lot of folks who may be in the same boat as Mr. Weinberg. Are we all not glad he was a programmer? 

Not all Poser users are coming from a Professional background where the "pre-process" is a part of the workflow. Not all Poser users are going to want to go beyond where Poser puts the props, render and GO! 

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

While in University I took a great Philosophy class on "Aesthetics: What is Art".

We read books and essays by the finest minds int he field.  We discussed at length hypothetical situations, like If an elephant steps in paint and walks over a canvas, is it art?  What if it is placed in a Natural History Mueseum, what if it is placed in a New York art gallery?  Or, If an artist hands a piece of beutiful driftwood that he just found on the beach to a curator of an art gallery and tells him it is a donation and to call it 'Driftwood', is it art?

I'll save you the time and money, there was no conclusive answer.

A great exercise in thinking, though, and a great introduction to the fact that there are as many different definitions as there are people.

There are also many ways to go about creating "art".  Many of the greatest sculpters throughout history never sketched out their ideas, they "let the stone" dictate their movements,  They let the clay, be their "muse".

I do sketch out my ideas before hand about half the time.  Usually this is because I get an idea while at work or first thing in the morning and I don't want to loose it.  I also sometimes just sit down and scroll through my runtime and see what strikes me.

Is one piece more art than the other?

I'll let the philosophers decide.

I agree with the original post.

To put a finer point on the intricacies of the Poser<-->photography comparison, Poser is like a camera that can be tweaked to work like anything from a disposable Polaroid to a high resolution digital camera, with a built-in flash that can be extended into a full lighting rig. It includes free models who are completely ignorant of how to model or use makeup, so work is required to get good results out of them, in addition to adjusting the camera and lighting. The problem comes when a professional photographer is exhibiting his pictures of a glamorous model that he paid hundreds of dollars an hour to shoot, and along comes Joe Lazyman with his cheap Polaroid style images, demanding that he be given equal gallery space. It is then no longer a point that Joe "was just having fun" or "is just a hobbyist". He is insisting on being seen by the same audience, so he is himself comparing his work to that of a professional. When it is shown to be an unfavorable comparison, Joe should simply bow out, and return if and when he is willing to work on improving his skills. Otherwise, he should find a gallery where he is among peers. It doesn't matter that Gary Poserartisto can make professional-quality images with that same adjustable camera, because Gary's images aren't being compared here.

Basically, what I am trying to say is that it is fine and good if you are having fun with Poser, and have no aspirations of creating images of the same caliber as those seen in the CGSociety galleries. If you are creating the images for your own enjoyment, then by all means don't stress over details that won't bother you in a final render. If the image is for you, then you are the only one you need to please. However, if you are going to post your images in a gallery where users of high-end programs are known to frequent, then be prepared to either put a lot of effort into your images to set them apart from what's associated with so-called "Poser art", or to face ridicule when such has not been done.

Needless to say, this is all just MHO :)

"If you browse the Maya or Max galleries most of the images are WIP´s or single objects.  I´d rather see another image of Vicky in a temple then another image of a wineglass on a wooden table, no matter how long it took to model it!"

I've made jokes about this very thing before and Vestmann is absolutely right. You are no more of an artist if you render a mirrored ball in Maya than if you rendered it in Poser. The flood of 'boring' nude Poser pics is just a result of Poser being more affordable and thus, more people able to acquire it and make their own art. The DAZ Studio galleries here are a good example of this. There's a lot of beginner and first-time 3D user art there because a lot of DAZ Studio users ARE beginners - it's free software and new users aren't going to immediately create the same works that long-time Poser users are.

If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman, you'd see EXACTLY the same kind of art created with it.

SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Quote - If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman, you'd see EXACTLY the same kind of art created with it.
SnowS

SOOOOOO true! Well said.

Just the point I was trying to make a few threads back (but not so eliquently). The gallery has become quite predictable. Perhaps what the gallery needs is a Boolean search option. **render NOT victoria NOT amazon NOT barbarian NOT** **pretentious

**

... But all the same, I'd like to encourage newcomers to 3DCG art....  Let them proudly display their first artwork, or three, or six, "canned" or not "canned", stock subject matter, or not.

 

 

Eternal Hobbyist

 

Quote - > Quote - If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman, you'd see EXACTLY the same kind of art created with it.

SnowS

SOOOOOO true! Well said.

 

sorry but you wouldn't because maya or max  are  modelling programs first and foremost. it's a completely different animal. wings and amapi are free yet i doubt the most modelled  figure is an amazon with a sword. usually people try to create something of their own with a modelling program...a head or a prop. a pice of clothing perhaps.  liker poser artists end products most are not sublime works of art. they wouldn't need a free figure cos you can put any figure in them and work on them, in many cases easier than you can in poser. id pretty much say if max or maya came out at 150 dollars poser shares would tumble. out of curiosity where do you think the poser models are made?

billy

Attached Link: My Tribute to Clifftoppler

It took me almost a week and a half to build this set, and render this scene.  I'm not one of Poser's greatest artists, but I do think that the end results displays a bit more than just a casual effort was invested in this. David P. Hoadley

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Billy, the opperative part SnowS's statement was "*If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman..."

*A lot of people do put V3 in high end programs and still render naked pictures of her.  Generally speaking, though, these people take the time to learn the program as you would expect from someone who is williing to set down big bucks to do.

I have Carrara, Hexagon, Bryce, 3D Studio Max and I still find myself rendering and creating things in Poser.  I use these other applications (well, mainly 3D Studio) for my professional work and it is a lot more boring than what I create in Poser (Flying logos, animated transitions and such for TV).

I will concede that Poser's (and Daz Studio's) accessibility does result in a poliferation of amateur results.  I will also concede that the artist might want to think twice before trying to show these results in a professional gallery and that an artist might want to take criticism and try and grow from it.

I will also add that those doling out criticisms should maybe be a little less heavy handed and a bit more encouraging.  Earlier in this post someone connected the early or less refined works to sketches, and I think this is a good analogy.

Poser is not my professional medium.  I know my results are not at a point where they may be publishable or comparable to professionals.  I don't expect that I should be treated as an equal, but I do expect to be treated as a human being.

Renderosity and it's contemporaries exsist as a place where everyone is on an equal playing field.  This is a place where we should welcome newcomers and while we can offer tips and techniques, none of us are qualifed to tell anyone what they should or should not post (within the TOS, of course, and then, that is best left to the mods).

It might be nice to see galleries divided into experience or "skill levels", but this would still have to be left as the choice of the artist.  I'm afraid I'd see a lot of top notch artists trying to be humble and posting in the "amateur" section while a lot of artists who still have a lot to learn would put themselves in the "advanced".  In the end, it is subjective.

i understand that thromm i was just pointing out that  those who have modeling apps often use them to model.

as for being treated equally well whatever our levels of skill i can only agree with. we only do ourselves a disservice when we say hurtfull things. as for the skill level thing...i think the very skilled level would have many in and the not so skilled very few...just call me cynical lol. i would def be in the unskilled lol

billy

I would urge anyone reading the original poster's comments not to let someone else tell you how you should express yourself. No matter what your Poser scenes look like, if you feel that they are art when you are creating them, then they are art. Art can only be defined in the heart of the artist.

"those who have modeling apps often use them to model"

Thank you, Billy, upon re-reading, I see I missed your point, my appologies.

"if you feel that they are art when you are creating them, then they are art. Art can only be defined in the heart of the artist."

And Wizardkiss, I fully agree, well said!

Too true **Wizardkiss.
**My original post was just my personal preferences.

Opening a national UK newspaper the other day I was almost surprised to see a whole cast of Poser characters staring up at me & it wasn't the first time either, why is it that the mainstream media can accept poser for what it is & does but the "big Boys" still see it as the poor cousin?

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Quote - "those who have modeling apps often use them to model"

Thank you, Billy, upon re-reading, I see I missed your point, my appologies.

"if you feel that they are art when you are creating them, then they are art. Art can only be defined in the heart of the artist."

And Wizardkiss, I fully agree, well said!

 

no apologies needed.

and whilst i agree to a certain extent with wizardkiss shouldn't we all strive to do better in our so called art. shouldn't we look and listen to those with the knowledge to help us. (to good advice not demands) i fear that to often we close ourselves off thinking we know better. i know for a fact that without the help of others my art which i can't in all honesty class as art would be much inferior than it is. 

billy

*'and whilst i agree to a certain extent with wizardkiss shouldn't we all strive to do better in our so called art. shouldn't we look and listen to those with the knowledge to help us. (to good advice not demands) i fear that to often we close ourselves off thinking we know better. i know for a fact that without the help of others my art which i can't in all honesty class as art would be much inferior than it is. 

billy'

*To choose to strive to improve the art or any other activity I persue in life would certainly be my philosophy, but for some it seems a forced option - 'make more of an effort or don't bother at all'.
Perhaps my interpretation of the original poster's tone is misread, but that was kind of the impression I got - an attitude I cannot abide. It is an attidude that seems to me by intent to lend more support to the views of the elitists than to offer balanced and helpful advice to those that might want it.
Had someone asked the question ' why arn't I satisfied by the images I create with Poser?', or 'what am I doing wrong?', I wouldn't have a problem with such giving of advice. But there was a politic behind that original post from my reading of it - one that tries to defend the corner of the Poser bashers and detractors of the more casual 3d hobbyists, even if it does have some reasoned and helpful points.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

The issue of people posting certain kinds of images in venues that are deemed inappropiate is another matter - perhaps the more salient issue with regard thread to which the original poster here was referring to. Even then, if a forum or gallery is intended to be exclusively for images with a particular derivation, that should be clearly indicated in the venue and images violating those terms should simply be removed...if they really want to get all policey about it.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

Reacting to various posts as well as the tone of the original post all in one go : "The high and mighty opinion that art can only be created by an elite group of people who have some archane know-how is a bunch of utter crap. Art is part of the human condition and is something that should be accessible to everyone." Now I've lost which poster said that but I agree ... and would add that art IS accessible to everyone. Is a persons who creates images in Poser not an 'artist' because they don't sell it ? Because someone doesn't like it ? Because there is room for improvement ? Because they might purchase components for it ? Is a person having artistic impulses and making creative decisions not an artist at that moment ? Are only Artists with a capital "A" because they are working in a professional capacity allowed to name themselves as such ? I know some professional artists in the moneymaking sense of the word who in my book sometimes produce total crap, be they book illustrators, sculptors, landscape painters , musicians or photographers ( All friends I like very much so don't tell I said that please. I am honest if they ask me though ;-) They don't always like what I do professionally either ) For instance CG Talk galleries, yes a lot of technically amazing pieces..... and still theres girls, amazons, barbarians, pretentious, sci-fi stuff, bowls of fruit, wine glasses etc. interspersed amongst other things. And a lot of it though technically proficient, and executed by professionals, leaves me only impressed by technique. Excellent technique can cover up quite well other things that may be lacking. I've seen more passion in a picture done by an autistic adult with crayons than much of what is either here or there. But so what. Some one might be an amateur but they are still an artist. Is someone not a poet because he still supports himself by waiting tables ? Striving to be come better at anything one does, just living even, is never a bad thing. But all this comparison and one-up manship...no one gains by it. Belittling peoples methods/results because they don't aspire to the same standards is not constructive. I'll raise you up by cutting you down first. Do it this way, don't do it that way. Spare me the pain of having to look at what you create. 10 suggestions on how to impress me...... hochtuey Thats the sound of me spitting in a corner I like what wizardkiss said ""if you feel that they are art when you are creating them, then they are art. Art can only be defined in the heart of the artist." And I never post at CG Talk because my technique is not up to the average standard there in my own opinion and that is all that matters to me on that score, no other reason. Not because my current softwares of choice include Poser . And some day I'll do a wonderful bowl of fruit with lots of emotion and radiosity and everything and then never do a pin-up again.

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

Agree and Disagree.

Keep in mind everyone that NO ONE starts out great. When we ALL first started out and rendered out first 'masterpiece' we were proud of it and wanted to share it with the world. Most of us evolve and when we look back at out early masterpieces, we think 'what the hell was I thinking?!"

Everyone starts small before they get great and I do not begrudge them that learning time. 

Some of the true greats often use poser as just a base and then go on to other tools for the final image. They paint the hair on. Thay paint the clothes on. They change the atmosphere with any number of actionc/plug-ins/etc. No one does or learns how to do these things overnight!

So in the process, we have many images of less than great renders while they get better.

To placate these folks down with poser rendering, maybe when can create different cataeories to post in.

1. Beginner crap images from people on their way to becoming a great Poser artists.
2. Intermediate crap images from people on their way to becoming a great Poser artists.
   ...etc. 

Think that would help the problem any?

I also do not have a problem with 'canned' anything. Rarely do I use a canned pose as is, but if I have one that's close enough, I'll use it and I'll tweak it to what I want and I defy anyone to do it faster than that from a complete zero point pose!

I would love to be able to paint on clothes. I would love to be able to create a complete scene, say anything like from what I buy from DM (Excellent Products by the way!) 
But there's a whole new learning curve invloved there that most of us (I'm guessing) just don't have the time for. Let alone the extra hardware to do it properly (ie. graphics tablet vs mouse, programs, time to learn how, etc.)

No, I absolutely do not berate anyone going through the learning curve with poser, even if what they post is crap! They will not and can not get better if they don't!

AND, I'll say with absolute certainty that some of the best Poser artists (given all the tools they use) can easily go head-to-head anytime with any of the 'other' artists! Period.

But NONE of them started out without making crap in the begining.

My 2cents worth.

i7 6800 (6 core/12 thread), 24 GB RAM, 1 gtx 1080 ti (8GB Vram) + 1 Titan X (12GB Vram), PP11, Octane/Poser plugin, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Oh, and a wiener dog!

I really enjoyed this rant.  I started out with Poser 1, and painted everything over by myself.  Poser, at that point, was actually a tool for introducing reasonably proportioned figures into a cgwork.  I think Poser 1 was a good tool.  At some point, Poser became a means to an end, and, that old "make art" button was sought by many.  Around that time, I got sick of Poser.

I have little pictures, and scenes in my head.  None of them could be made with Michael, or Vicki, or, even a heavily morphed Aiko.  They involve creatures that are not mass produced, and, landscapes and lighting that really don't exist in the real world.  I love these little critters, but, could not make them without knowing how to model, texture, rig and light.  If I can't get behind premade stuffages in a Poser scene that's because my own unique imagination doesn't show me premade stuffages.  Nope, I like the other worldly, fantasy critters that can only be one of a kind.  Sure the Millenium Dragon is a very nice dragon....but, he ain't the twig dragon that I'm working on right now.  Nor could he be morphed into that tree dragon.

As to photography....Well, I carry my digital camera EVERYWHERE.  Sometimes, even the most mundane things, if they are showing an interesting balance of light, color, or shadow, can sing to my soul.  Occasionally, something will also be of later use as part of a texture.  However, I am not a photographer.  I just try to catch what captures me in the first place.

I disagree, agree and shake my head all at Pengi's post.

I disagree..Poser is very much like photography.  I have studied photography...it's all stock lights, objects people and textures, pre posed and all you do is hit a button.  But if that's all you do you get crap.  You have to use those elements well...then there all sorts of post processing that goes on from coloring to recomp.

Same with poser.

I agree with much of the rest of Pengi's post.  However Poser has been in many painting and illustrator books for quite awhile now...I have lots.  I've seen at least one with Daz Studio in it.  People are doing good things...and bad professionally (bad:  Walmart's self checkout lines features posette)

And finally become hard to take you seriously when you don't follow your own advice.  Original characters...sometimes..backgrounds...maybe...modeling...hard to say...post work...nil...lighting bad..shadows...faded...overall flat.

and yet..it could still be art to someone.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Nicely put wizardkiss. 
at tthe end of the day, the artist is the one that has to be happy with what they created.  At some point, you begin to evolve, and find your own personal style.  That style may not fit well with others, but you have to just smile and nod.
BTW, I work in the Fine Art Community, and sometimes, you see things constructed with macaroni that are so beautiful that you don't notice the medium.
and that's what we're talking about here isn't it?  "The Medium Is The Message."....  
Will my work ever be considered Fine Art....... man, I hope not, because then I will have become a Professional.  I enjoy my amateur standing (comes from the French "doing for the love of...")  I love doing what I do.  I make independent/underground movies.  Should I quit just because Hollywood makes bigger and more expensive things.  No...... and the same No applies to members posting here at Rendo.
Post because you are happy with what you have created.  Post even though some will slam you because they may not like your style or subject.   Creating art, your own art, is a lifelong pursuit, you won't achieve the perfection overnight, and you shouldn't.... Nirvana is boring, no surprises.
but that's just me......... cooler heads may prevail..... or not.

My app of choice gets even less respect in most cg communities than Poser, but that doesn't stop me from using it.  I know I will never be a "real" artist in the eyes of traditional artists since I have no talent with traditional media or in the eyes of professional cg artists since I can't afford to spend thousands of dollars on apps like 3ds or Maya.

I've seen V3 used in brilliant POV Ray and Maya scenes where the artists took the time to sculpt every last building, vehicle, stick of furniture and hand paint every texture, yet s/he hasn't applied one morph or changed one thing about the default V3.

Raises hand  I have to admit I'm guilty of this particularly in scenes where the people aren't the main focus of the image (I used to have a serious Poser mannequin adiction because I liked the "generic-ness" of the mannequin).

I have no problem with people using "canned" content especially when all this is just a hobby for the people using the canned content.  I usually use a mixture of my own models and premade models depending on the scene.  Sometimes my models look better than what I can find (or afford), sometimes the premade models are better.  I've thought about offering some of the things I've made as freebies but most of them aren't really compatible with "standard" 3d software so I doubt there would be much interest.

*This might be a shameless plug, but I was inspired to make this image the last time the "Poser art" question came up.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1281004

art: the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance. As has been discussed by other posters here, there is no difinitive answer to what qualifies as art. Or even good and bad art. Of all the things in this world, art is one of the most subjective. I do what I do because I feel a drive to create. Something inside of myself wants to come out in a form of creative expression. Like 1358, I proudly consider myself an amateur because I do it for the love of it. Do I want to improve my skills? Sure. I would hope that everyone does and that their own drives push them to go past the stock models, textures or whatever medium they are in, and explore how far they can push it to better express themselves in a creative and unique manner. We are all at different skill levels on Renderosity. If you don't like something, there is no-one making you click on that thumb to take a look at it. Do something because you love doing it and try not think less of others because they are not where you are at in your creative journey. Wikipedia has worthwhile entry for "Art," I recommend taking a peek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art

Kort Kramer - Kramer Kreations

A friend sent me here because he thought I might be interested in this discussion. One part of me is itching to get in here & share my profound thoughts about the aesthetics & philosophy of art, but another part of me realizes it's a waste of time. There will always be way more crappy art, crappy music, crappy books, crappy movies, etc. etc. than the good stuff. Given that we have finite lifetimes & a finite amount of time to spend on art, would you rather spend your time bemoaning & criticizing the crappy stuff or creating & appreciating the good stuff?

"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." - Picasso

Well said. :b_tonguewink:

Kort Kramer - Kramer Kreations

"Photography is the art of the tangible, of reality. It is a moment in time. The very nature of photography is based on three things performed against a pre-existing tangible subject or event found within the scope of reality to produce art: composition, lighting, and color. In photography, you are taking something that exists and committing it to either film or pixel, in the hopes that the story you tell with it will last orders of magnitude longer than the short moment in which it was composed. Sometimes it is distorted (e.g. fashion photography), but is still grounded in either manipulating or fixing the fleeting reality into the permanent."

Yeah, photographers love to make it sound all arty like that ;)  I still don't see the difference.  Modeling is like sculpting, rendering is like photography.  If I download someone's models and render them, I've essentially photographed them with a virtual camera.  There's no guarantee it'll be good or interesting, nor is it necessarily art any more so than a photo of a thumb taken by accident.  It's the aforementioned elements of composition, lighting, and colour that seperate a good, interesting,  rendered image from a poor, boring, one.  Whether the elements rendered were created by the "artist" concerns me much less than how much of the scene composition was their choice.  I'm not defending those people who click load, click render then click save.  I'm just unable to see any appreciable distinction between paying someone to pose for a photo and buying a figure from a vendor with regard to "artiness".  Of course I generally prefer real models to virtual ones but then again a photographer can't really claim credit for any of his model's natural qualities but rather only how they are captured by the photograph.

Why is Poser getting such a bad rap? Sturgeon's Law holds everywhere. 90% of ALL CGI is crap -- 90% of all art, traditional or computer, is crap. The problem Poser has, is their 90% is big, growing bigger, and slopping all over the place. Used to be 3ds MAX or MAYA functioned a bit like an exclusive social club. You had to pony up the cash for the software and the time to learn it to get in. So the galleries inside were still 90% crap, but at least you could find the jewels thrown in among the dross. Enter Poser. Fill every available gallery and other outlet to bursting. Hundreds of new images, if not thousands, posted daily. You can't wade through that kind of crap in an afternoon. It takes so much more effort to find that 10% -- made in any program or combination thereof -- because there is so much MORE in toto. So no wonder the MAX people are upset. Heck...the old-time Poser users are upset; used to be, when you posted to a gallery you got noticed. Now, a place like Rendo, you can't post fast enough to see your own image at the top of the gallery page! Turn around, and it is buried twenty deep. And this is regardless of quality or lack thereof. Hey, a lot of stuff in the gallery is pretty decent. Does it make me feel any better to have the result of my labors vanish under twenty better images? Would we feel any better here in the heart of the Poserverse if the MAYA users struck back and filled our galleries with pictures of chess pieces on polished stone tables? No solution. No advice. No value judgements. Just an effort to understand why the emotions run so high.

Quote - Given that we have finite lifetimes & a finite amount of time to spend on art, would you rather spend your time bemoaning & criticizing the crappy stuff or creating & appreciating the good stuff?

 
Exactly!!!

First of all, I don't consider myself as an artist or whatever name people wanna call me, as I really don't care.  I only use Poser as a hobby, just for fun, that's it,  
Second, who cares if people use "canned" textures, or props or whatever.  Let them use whatever they wanna use and however they want.  It's their choice.  If some real "artists" think those are not worthy, well too bad!!!  Go ahead and create your own almighty "artworks" and pat yourself on the back.  Why bother wasting your time complaining about crappy stuff that so frustrate you.

Penguinisto:
Btw, I've just took a quick look at your gallery expecting to see some eye popping masterpieces considering that you seemed to have this "art" stuff all figured out.  Well, let's just say that I've seen many other NVIATWAS with way better lighting, composition, and shadows etc.  Maybe you should consider buying yourself one of those "canned" elements to learn about improving your "artwork" first before criticizing others for their crappy stuff.
Just a harmless suggestion from a seven-year-old kid busting into an art competition with a glued-together macaroni.  Have a nice day.

Sometimes I think the problem is the moniker put on it "Artist".  Photographer, playwrighter, actor, painter....... or 3d/CGI....... guess what, all art.

When i started using poser, I thought my work was utterly brilliant....... when now i look back, eeeeeeghads what was I thinking?  It was actually that, over time, looking back, that I said, "Oh god I have to do better than this!!"

I started with poser, photoshop and a wacom tablet, and bryce, because working in oil pencils and coals was...... pretty problematic with two small inquisitive (and dare i say artistic?) children.  Picture the walls, you get the idea.

After realizing, oops, plastic, and making other notations such as sun is coming from the right but in this render I have the light coming from the left......... it was time to fix this.

I scoured the web, renderosity in particular and the tutorials were a BLOODY GOLD MINE.  Step by step...... and I had been an artist before, on paper with pencils....... now?

My office looks like a high tech lab, LOL.  My kids are as fascinated with the wacom as they were with the pencils, but they can't figure it out to save their lives! yay!.

From using plug ins and copy/paste hair to..........dare i say it, painting strand by strand, wow, what a difference.

It takes time and i'm no where NEAR perfect and at many shrines of art in the galleries i worship and am not worthy, I aspire to be like (not exact copies, just learn the techniques and run).

I find the poser proposition an interesting one, and justhad a post because on another art site, the method, not the art, was more critiqued.

I can stand to hear "lighting stinks....... god what color choice?" you know, somethings technically or artistically WRONG.  But "how" i did it?  I'm just not used to that.

We suffer I think, because...... in the non computer life, a new artist, say a teen, draws an image of their favorite game character off a CD case or whatever..... and shows all his friends.  Its rough, its new, he's never drawn before....... some say its crap, some say its great, and he tries again.

The problem is with poser, when we show things online, in galleries, the new user and the old hat........ we are all just lumped in like one person.  There's no mercy for the new user anymore, lol.  Its true, but we all start with crap.  God knows I did.

But...... what if there's 1300 new poser users posting thier masterpieces in deviant art?  At elfwood?   These are people used to seeing line drawings or oil paintings, not new 3d users.

Some are just, bloody harsh.

Quote - art: the quality, production, expression, or realm, according to aesthetic principles, of what is beautiful, appealing, or of more than ordinary significance. As has been discussed by other posters here, there is no difinitive answer to what qualifies as art. Or even good and bad art. Of all the things in this world, art is one of the most subjective. I do what I do because I feel a drive to create. Something inside of myself wants to come out in a form of creative expression. Like 1358, I proudly consider myself an amateur because I do it for the love of it. Do I want to improve my skills? Sure. I would hope that everyone does and that their own drives push them to go past the stock models, textures or whatever medium they are in, and explore how far they can push it to better express themselves in a creative and unique manner. We are all at different skill levels on Renderosity. If you don't like something, there is no-one making you click on that thumb to take a look at it. Do something because you love doing it and try not think less of others because they are not where you are at in your creative journey. Wikipedia has worthwhile entry for "Art," I recommend taking a peek: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Art 

::claps:: And this, my friends, is why I so enjoy the Photography forum here.

-Melen

Oh, and not to be cruel.... If you are doing art only to satisfy yourself, why are you posting it online? By posting in a public gallery you enter into an unspoken contract with the viewer; that there is something THEY can get out of YOUR art. Which engenders in you a subtle but powerful obligation to learn a little basic craft. If you desire to communicate, and by making photo-realistic pictures of human subjects have at least pretended to adopt a certain tradition, perhaps you should make a little effort to learn the language of that tradition (perspective, anatomy, light and shadow)...instead of pouting that "they don't understand me because I'm too deep." /RANT

Quote - Oh, and not to be cruel.... If you are doing art only to satisfy yourself, why are you posting it online?

Easy to answer: hopefully those viewing my stuff will have pointers on how I can improve. Sure, I could (and do) rely on reading material (especially for photography), but sometimes it's a person with experience that can point out some small detail that can help me produce something more pleasing (to myself). The reverse works as well... Sometimes having reinforcement that I "got it right" lets me know I'm on the right path.

-Melen

Here's the issue.

It's that when you all use the same mesh, the same textures, the same default settings, and dare I say it- the same concepts, the work becomes utterly indistinguishable.

Imagine if you will if you gave a bunch of high school students a low-end digital camera, and a box full of toys ( a handful of GI Joes, Barbies, Transformers, and some random monster figures) freshly purchased that week. Create a stage with three lights and look at the results...

A good deal of the results would be VERY similar.

Even if these students went to Toys R Us and bought some vehicles, props and costumes, the results would still be pretty predictable.

Now imagine if you give the students raw materials and tell them to create their own characters. Instead of giving them a stage and a lighting setup, give them the lights and materials to build a stage/setup.

Give them wood, tin foil, styrene, broken stereo parts, scraps of cloth, acrylic paints, crazy glue, a dremel tool, a hacksaw and a power drill.

Suddenly the work will be far more unique. Dominic's work will look diffrent than Brad's, even though they both decide to make robots. Sandra creates a rainbow colored cat, whereas Jane makes a figure she calls "Radio Lady" with speakers for ears. Devon makes a pimped out car with a rocket on the back.

How do I know this?  I teach found-object sculpture and comic illustration to middle and high school students.

By contrast, the more specific elements you offer to someone, the tighter the cage that their thinking falls into. And that's exactly the trap that people fall into. They start working with their credit cards instead of their hands.

Just another two cents.

I do 3D for my own satisfaction.  Not to seek out the good opinions of others.

If anyone likes something that I've done: then that's very much appreciated.  But it's not essential to my peace of mind.

I've started into Lightwave -- but not in a misguided effort to gain respect.  I got into LW simply because it looked interesting to me.  As does Poser....still.  I most definitely did not get into LW so that I could feel important.

I did it for fun.

I wonder if model railroading enthusiasts like to yell at each other?

*"N" scale.......?  I can't believe that you'd use that type of garbage!!!!  Real railroaders only use "O" !!!!!!  Everybody knows that!!!!!!!!!!

*Am I an artist?  I'd say yes.  I only wish that the term "artist" and the term "art" were not so often used as subconscious synonyms for the term "egotist" and for the tern "elitist".

Poser is 3D for the everyman.  I don't like elitists, and I don't like elitist attitudes.  I certainly have no problems with bettering oneself; or with encouraging others to better themselves.  But I do have a problem with those whose chief joy in life involves a sneer.

 Frankly, most people have neither the time, the money, nor the inclination to learn how to drive a formula 1 racer.  But that doesn't mean that they can't (or that they don't have a right to) enjoy a Sunday afternoon drive out in their own car.......and that others can't enjoy the ride right along with them.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I have YET to meet a hobby, occupation, field, study, science, or anything else that didn't have partisanship with occasional screaming matches. Best we can do is understand why these arise, and be aware when you cross one of those invisible lines between territories. (Aka, don't go into GC-Talk and start talking about Poser! ^_^)

Hmmm...
I agree with Penguinisto.
Only read a few replies.

I'm guilty of cutting corners as well as the next person, but some of the stuff I see in the gallery is just... pure crap. Sorry if that hurts anyone's feelings.

I totally agree on Light Sets btw. For cripes sake, lighting is the be-all and end-all of any image. Learn it! Sit down and see what you can do with one light. Two. Play with shaders, play with the shadow, athmosphere etc.
I guarantee you if I look at the gallery now I'll see the first page full of stuff I could knock out in five minutes flat, provided I got the bits used.
And if it's not right - do it again. Improve on it. Post it, act on constructive comments (if you get any, which isn't easy) and repost it.

I can't model worth a damn, but I fiddle with magnets a fair bit to tweak stuff.
The one thing I'm guilty of the most is that I'm impatient heheh.
I will render the 'almost right' rather than tweak more, but often I go back later and fix what turned messy.

Is it Art?
That depends.
If I use a prefab V3 & texture, prefab pose, prefab clothing & textures, prefab background, prefab lights, prefab surrounds.... and then hit render without doing anything else? Then no. It's not.

If I pose the thing myself, tweak settings of materials, make a bumpmap where there is none, change a texture to be more what I need for the figure, possibly displace some bits with my own displacement map, pull on the mesh some with a magnet to iron out a crease / lump / bump ill fitting something or other... yank it over to Vue/Bryce/Carrara to have a "homegrown" background... paint in the hair in Photoshop, tweak levels, postwork errors... (Any or all of those I mean)
To me, the result is more Art than the previous example. Because you spent the time to get it "right" even if it's not "right" in every aspect.

THAT is what Peng is talking about. A little effort goes a long, long way.
Practice - as they say - makes perfect.

Those going with the first option are the ones hurting the Poser community. Those going with the second option... stand a better chance of being taken semi seriously.
I say semi seriously, because the first option already ruined Poser's credibility and (generally) it's the best we can hope for.

If that's elitist... ok. Fine. I'd like to think I'm more of a perfectionist than an elitist. For one thing I'm nowhere near good enough to be an Elitist lol. If something produces a good end result and if I can see the creativity of the user shine through on the render - then I would never dream of dismissing it, regardless of the medium.

Silke

Too true, Xeno, but it is an attitude that can be taken to extremes. There are millions of weekend painters. They enjoy the process, they have a basic command of the tools. They get out there and paint their vases of flowers or their old wooden boat, and they enjoy them, and their friends enjoy them. They don't DEMAND that their paintings be allowed to hang in the Louvre, or be sold at Southeby's. The 3d world is a little too recent, too raw, and too much entangled with the basic architecture of the online world; many-to-many, not the one-to-many of the old Studio system (or, in an earlier age, the defining tastes of the court who sponsored the artists and set the style for all that could afford it to emulate.) There isn't much in place to sort the incredible volume of work that is coming though. It comes down to a competition for eyeballs. By saying "My Poser work is as worthy as your Lightwave work" you are also saying "I don't care if you are an LW professional looking for information to help you in your career....you are going to have to sit through all this Poser stuff to get to what you need." As the 3d world evolves, it will naturally form itself into more and more landscapes to where the expectations of the participant will be more closely met; schools, specialties, genres, movements. This is both good and bad; good because when you are working on a deadline you don't need to deal with dead wood (aka scroll through items that have nothing to do with your specific software), and bad because as borders are drawn the people inside become insular, and lose the greater understanding and the access to the original thinking that comes from outside their particular box.

Quote - I have YET to meet a hobby, occupation, field, study, science, or anything else that didn't have partisanship with occasional screaming matches. Best we can do is understand why these arise, and be aware when you cross one of those invisible lines between territories. (Aka, don't go into GC-Talk and start talking about Poser! ^_^)

 

YET! :)

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Something to think about: I thought that ART had everything to do with perfecting your skills as much as possible... so I went to art school (college in American English) for six years. I learned everything there was to learn about various art forms and chose a specialisation in graphic design. The most important thing that I learned though, is that once you have learned everything, you have to omit it all to come to the essence... keep purifying, simplifying, focusing on that one pure 'message' and trash all the superfluous and unnecessary. And that can be the longest process of all... but certainly the most rewarding in the end. I have seen works where the 'artist' had put all his acquired skills all together in one image or work, and in the end I just ended up asking myself: "what on earth is he trying to say to me? That he can do it all..?" Lately I've been working with mentally disabled people. I've seen some incredible images, paintings, sculptures that they created. And I couldn't help myself thinking: "Here I am, coming all this way, from school, over 15 years as a graphic designer, only to find that these people are creating the art that I would so love to create, but can't, because I can't shake off all that damned 'knowledge' and 'skill' that I thought was necessary to go through first"... Don't let knowledge and skill be like a blindfold or a blinding sun... It's YOUR VISION that counts. If you know the mature works of Picasso, you probably know what I'm talking about...

We do not see things as they are. ǝɹɐ ǝʍ sɐ sƃuıɥʇ ǝǝs ǝʍ
 

maybe thats why we're told it's easier to break the rules if we know what the rules are. a sort of structured chaos.

as for elitists and other who think themselves better i post the first two stanza after the opening  couplet of desidarta one of my favorite poems.

sadly i'm a loud person so please avoid me lol

billy

As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
they are vexatious to the spirit.

If you compare yourself with others,
you may become vain or bitter,
for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself.
Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans.
Keep interested in your own career, however humble;
it is a real possession in the changing fortunes of time. 

I believe, from a certain amount of hanging out around both traditional and 3d artists, that the part of the equation too many forget is OBSERVATION. It is one thing to let go of the craft skills. It is quite another to never have had them, or the discipline to look at the world, understand it however imperfectly, and be able to form an internal vision in response it. Pointing no fingers whatsoever, but some of the loudest cries I have heard claiming that inner beauty trumps craft are from those who, from all evidence, aspire to nothing more than slavish copy-cat of commercial works, and their only uniqueness is how badly they fail in that attempt. But this is off the point. Poser gets no respect because the price of entry is so low. And it even carries the ability to fool those who don't know it well; many has been the tale of a stock V3 wowing them at bastions of "modeled it all from scratch, yes I did." Poser is, however, actively DISLIKED because it is too efficient. It is the GarageBand of the 3d world; more people are making more 3d faster, and the old systems are simply not set up to deal with it. More than anything else, what marks Poser is how MUCH of it there is. And with that much volume, patterns that might otherwise be hidden by the efforts of the individual artists make themselves apparent; like the way watercolors always reveal themselves, the basic constraints of Poser make themselves visible when seen en masse; bad anatomy, broken poses, queasy lighting, flat eyes, cardboard clothing, figure-centric staged renders, and so forth. All of these may be and often are surpassed by individual artists -- just as individual watercolors can have the depth and opacity of oils, or the fine detail of acrylics -- but the net impression of viewing the totality is that of the worst qualities of the program.

Good idea to bring these verses into the discussion, billy.. ;o))

We do not see things as they are. ǝɹɐ ǝʍ sɐ sƃuıɥʇ ǝǝs ǝʍ
 

if only i could adhere to them girsempa :)

billy

We could have a contest for the best Poor Dissed Poser Artist Limerick?
Maybe in a writers forum?
And... would that be considered art???
[ducking and running]

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!"  Whaz yurs?
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Quote - They don't DEMAND that their paintings be allowed to hang in the Louvre, or be sold at Southeby's.

 

Based upon some of the stuff that I've seen being claimed as 'high art' - I'll take another velvet Elvis poster.  And I'm not even an Elvis fan.

BTW - Van Gogh's stuff was considered to be pretty much just so much bird-cage liner back in his own day.  That is, back when he was alive -- and when the millions that his paintings later came to sell for could have actually done him some good.

Who knows?  Perhaps a plastic-looking Posette render complete with plastic-looking "helmet hair" will sell for a couple of hundred million astrocredits in 2125........electronic transfer, of course.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - [

BTW - Van Gogh's stuff was considered to be pretty much just so much bird-cage liner back in his own day.  That is, back when he was alive -- and when the millions that his paintings later came to sell for could have actually done him some good.

Who knows?  Perhaps a plastic-looking Posette render complete with plastic-looking "helmet hair" will sell for a couple of hundred million astrocredits in 2125........electronic transfer, of course.

 

somehow i doubt it lol

if only i could paint birdcage liner like vincent.......

billy

Attached Link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeanne_Calment

There was a French woman who died just a few years ago......Jeanne Calment.  She had known Vincent Van Gogh personally.  She lived to be 122.  At the time of her death, she was the oldest known living human.

((Although there are reports -- and I believe that there are also some official birth/death records from the time -- of an Englishman who lived in the sixteenth century to be 207.))

Her father ran an art supply shop in Paris during the 1800's.  She was 14 years old at the time that Van Gogh used to trade with her father.  Van Gogh never had any money, so he always paid for his art supplies by trading paintings, sketches, etc. to her dad.

According to this elderly French woman, Van Gogh was "dirty, badly dressed and disagreeable."  Sounds like Van Gogh would have made an excellent forumite.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Attached Link: http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/tech/medicine/AnomaliesandCuriositiesofMedicine/chap8.html

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I just quickly perused the link, but I sincerely (as in skeptical, scientific backing) doubt that any human has ever lived more than 120-something years.  To make it to 100 is 1 in a million.  To make it to 110 is 1 is 500 million.  To make it to 120 is 1 in a billion (or so).  200+ is 1 in several trillion (chance more than all humans - homo sapiens sapiens - that have ever existed and will exist for the next several centuries).  Such longetivity has never been recorded scientifically in all history (only in fairy tales and myths - see Bible).

Why?  It has nothing to do with eating yogurt religiously or being religiously yogurted.  In every cell is a genome based on DNA which has a little timer (Teleromase).  As cells die and reproduce, the number of these decrease.  When these are exhausted, the cells no longer reproduce.  If there is a possible 'fountain of youth', it is directly linked to that.  This doesn't take into account other internal/external factors, but it is a rather hard wall on human longetivity.

I'll believe that someone can live to 122, but not to 207! ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

This is a really bizarre tangent that's veered way off the original point, but I don't like to see misinformation spread. I live in a pretty sparsely populated part of soutthern Oregon - the entire county I live in has less than 200,000 people - & I personally know 5 people over 100 who live here (ok, two actually died within the last month, at 103 & 105). There are quite a few assisted living homes for the elderly here, so I'm sure there are many more as well. Don't know where that 1 in a million statistic comes from - it may be skewed due to the effects of such factors as war, disease & poverty - but living to 100 is definitely not that rare...

"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." - Picasso

And I just got through reading a letter by a woman in her 90s, whose two living sisters are also in their 90s.

Here is a scientific fact that you cannot deny: people today are older than they were many years ago.

Yes, that is supposed to be funny ;p

Quote - "If you browse the Maya or Max galleries most of the images are WIP´s or single objects.  I´d rather see another image of Vicky in a temple then another image of a wineglass on a wooden table, no matter how long it took to model it!"

I've made jokes about this very thing before and Vestmann is absolutely right. You are no more of an artist if you render a mirrored ball in Maya than if you rendered it in Poser. The flood of 'boring' nude Poser pics is just a result of Poser being more affordable and thus, more people able to acquire it and make their own art. The DAZ Studio galleries here are a good example of this. There's a lot of beginner and first-time 3D user art there because a lot of DAZ Studio users ARE beginners - it's free software and new users aren't going to immediately create the same works that long-time Poser users are.

If Max cost $150 and came with a poseable nude woman, you'd see EXACTLY the same kind of art created with it.

SnowS

Here's the Max equivalent of a NVIAT 

I bring you...

STOAT
Shiny Teapot On A Tablecloth

And I did it ALL by myself!

(Well I did select the Teapot Primitive all by myself, and I did tweak the texture on the plane to tile and I DID make the lid a little larger because the default doesn't really fit and I DID create a spotlight all by myself, and... isn't it just ARTSY ;o) )

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You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

Ok, I'm first:

-A poor poser freak in New-York
-Was burnt for posing his work

• He started out crying,
  -And said they were lying
  -'bout his artpiece with Posette and Dork

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Boooo-HAH!!!! Nice overhand volley, TG! Y'know what the problem is here? Obsessing over title terminology and ego. Comparing websites like Rosity, CGS, Deviantart, and so on to actual museums in....shall we say....signs of hyperinflated ego? Three distinct things are being mixed up in this; craft and title and talent. I'm a writer; not an author. Why? Because I haven't sold a work for $$$. This makes me a second class citizen, despite the fact that there are published 'authors' I can write rings of prose around with 10 broken fingers and a crayon superglued to my nose. But that second class status only applies if I accept the idea that working a system to get published somehow magically grants craft skills. It doesn't from my experience, and it also tends to destroy whatever chance the victim had to improve if they do not have their head on straight and pulled out of their ass.After all, they have 'arrived'. They got the gold ring. They 'matter'. And all too many of them fossilize at that point. And suddenly find their shining reputation is that of a hack....because book 9 is obviously the exact same formula as book 8...7....6...etc. Craft has nothing whatsoever to do with title. Pure and simple, it is a matter of knowing your tools, what they can do, and what extra things you can make them do by knowing what the gray areas of their useage is. Poser in no more or no less a tool than any other CG application. Oh, by comparison its a pocketknife to the big boys swiss army knife, but that doesn't change the fact that it still can cut. How a tool is used is what determines its usefulness. The all-in-wonder tools have their uses....but they also have their liabilities. A little bit of everything can lead to a lot of nothing due to conflicts and overcomplicated methodology. A lot of Poser users have a lot of craft to learn yet, if they choose; that's a no-brainer. But with only a few exceptions, the resources that apply are either simply not there, masked in obscure terminology, or guarded from the barbarian heathens by the true believers. Which brings us to talent. The great intangible that no amount of schooling, no amount of plugins, no amount of $$$$$$$$ spent on content/application/whatever can provide. But here's the catch; no one has full blown talent. No one. Talent is like a tree; no matter =what=, you always start as a little nut in the dirt. I tripped over my writing talent quite by accident in high school. My worst subject was always engligh...mainly because it was always grammar, and for most real world situations, knowing how to split a participle just isn't all that important. But senior year, we were given a class long creative assignment; the old list of unrelated words to somehow work into something. A speech, short story, whatever. And the nut sprouted from the providing of a little bit of water and sunlight. But that tree of talent will only grow so long as it is given nourishment to grow...and faced with the storms of challenge to give it a reason to grow. Using the camera/photographer analogy: Whether you are an artist or a shutterbug pretty much depends on which clique you are with at the moment....and if your ego is halfway sane, irrelevant. Cliques by their nature are bigoted entities. Craft is learneable. It may be hard to juggle all the possible settings if all you ever used was granpas old Brownie, but it can be done if you put your mind to it. Talent the intangible. Yes, a chimp may be able to push that button, but it would be a random event. Talent is what makes a human able to wait, and watch, until something deep inside says 'now', before they push that same button. Directed vs Random. That is the difference.

MAXUser 234 - OMG, Trekkiegrrl, is that Subsurface particle Scattering?  That is amazing, absolutely incredible, i'm putting it in my favs! 

3DMan - I like the lighting.

ModelMAstrr - Can you post a tutorial on how you got that lid to fit, I have had no luck!

MAYAlvrrr - This is the most pornographic Naked Teapot on a Tablecloth (NTOAT) I have ver seen, I'm reporting you to the Mods!

(Sorry, couldn't resist... I'm getting bored of this topic... lol)

ROFL ThrommArcadia! You nailed it! giggles madly =o)

FREEBIES! | My Gallery | My Store | My FB | Tumblr |
You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

"STOAT" LOL :lol:

Thanks for the 'matter of perspective'.

I still like Philc's MAKE ART button in Wardrobe Wizard.   NOW THAT is a perspective resetter of the first order! ROFLOLMAO!

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

I really have to get Wardrobe Wizard.  I'm sucha knucklehead and keep forgetting when I pour money into my addiction.

Ooop, it's true, I'm not an artist, I'm an addict.  I'm in denial!

runs away arms waving in the air

(no, no, no, da Nile is in Egypt)

It is funny how the same arguments continue throughout the ages. When photography came out, and artists started using it to improve their level of realism, traditionalists were up in arms.

Not being a regular in the CG community, it is interesting to see the same arguments.

Good art consists of:

Good fundamental composition, lighting and rendering. The same is true wether it is traditional art or CG painting, or 3D.

Second; there are two types of artists. Amateurs looking to have fun, and serious ones. You can not hold amateurs to the same standards as professionals.

In traditional art you have paint by number kits. In 3D cg people offer kits.

Poser is just a tool like any other. The fact that it has a larger following of fun seekers does not diminish it's value as a tool.

I like the idea of a limerick contest as suggested earlier. Here's a couple of entries:

There was a young man from Concord
Who rendered V3 with a sword
The set was a temple,
Her clothes were not ample,
And the lady looked decidedly bored.

Or possibly:

There was a Max user from Mars
Who thought the sun shone out of his arse
But when he used Poser
Fools called him a loser
So he went back to rendering cars.

Steve

Quote - MAXUser 234 - OMG, Trekkiegrrl, is that Subsurface particle Scattering?  That is amazing, absolutely incredible, i'm putting it in my favs! 

3DMan - I like the lighting.

ModelMAstrr - Can you post a tutorial on how you got that lid to fit, I have had no luck!

MAYAlvrrr - This is the most pornographic Naked Teapot on a Tablecloth (NTOAT) I have ver seen, I'm reporting you to the Mods!

(Sorry, couldn't resist... I'm getting bored of this topic... lol)

 

I remember back in the old days (mid-80s) when the big deal in computer graphics was rendering Mandrills (a type of colorful ape). There was an April issue of the Communications of the ACM which had an article on "Ray-tracing Jello", which, although it was a serious and refereed article, also managed to cite Bill Cosby and Soupy Sales.

A CG elitist called Tess

Thought all Poser pics were a mess

Her world was all dashed

When she ran out of cash

But P7 was there and cost less.

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

One of things I notice is that alot of people who don't like poser have based their opinions on non-current versions they heard about once.

It's kind of strange to still see people at cgtalk say things like Poser is only stock textures...never fathoming that people paint their own or that poser has had a material editor for several versions.

But there is a reverse...you see more poser usage in the 2d section...where as illustration it is more excepted.  Also more and more people have admited that poser is in their professional pipeline for one reason or another.  Poser news gets time on the cg news board as well.

Sure poser is still used as an insult(some times even as an expressin of jelously..do a search for night elf on cgtalk...look at the eyecandy then read some of the first page comments)  and is banned from use in cgtalk challenges but that doesn't mean people don't use it there.  And if the image is good you can get some balenced critiques if you included what you did exactly.

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Quote - I just quickly perused the link, but I sincerely (as in skeptical, scientific backing) doubt that any human has ever lived more than 120-something years.  To make it to 100 is 1 in a million.  To make it to 110 is 1 is 500 million.  To make it to 120 is 1 in a billion (or so).  200+ is 1 in several trillion (chance more than all humans - homo sapiens sapiens - that have ever existed and will exist for the next several centuries).  Such longetivity has never been recorded scientifically in all history (only in fairy tales and myths - see Bible).

Why?  It has nothing to do with eating yogurt religiously or being religiously yogurted.  In every cell is a genome based on DNA which has a little timer (Teleromase).  As cells die and reproduce, the number of these decrease.  When these are exhausted, the cells no longer reproduce.  If there is a possible 'fountain of youth', it is directly linked to that.  This doesn't take into account other internal/external factors, but it is a rather hard wall on human longetivity.

I'll believe that someone can live to 122, but not to 207! ;)

 

I don't have any links at the moment.  Perhaps I'll do a google later.  But I have seen some articles in the last year or two in which certain medical authorities (the AMA?) stated that a lifespan of 200 years for human beings is theoretically possible.  So I wouldn't just dismiss the story.

I've also seen some recent data elsewhere about the 207-year-old Englishman.  Unfortunately, I can't research it to find out where right now, as I'm at my office.  IIRC, the official records involved were some contemporaneous church birth, death & baptismal records, as well as tales from people who actually knew the man.  He raised more than one family, and he outlived his great-grandchildren.  The other article also gave the man's name.

I might do a little looking later.  It's interesting enough to follow-up.

BTW - this little OT reference was in conjunction with the fact that Van Gogh's work was considered to be virtually worthless by his contemporaries.  The elderly woman's personal assessment of Van Gogh sort of provides a hint as to why the negative attitude towards him prevailed during his own lifetime.

It's much easier to admire / idealize someone who you don't actually know.  Even if Leonard Nimoy claims to be the reincarnation of Van Gogh.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Way to stay OT peeps. Very interesting direction this link has taken, ...from some very creative limericks to Nimoy as Van Gogh. ::Skips off singing, "Bilbo Baggins"::

Kort Kramer - Kramer Kreations

LOL Trekkie, that would fit right in any Max gallery!  You might want to try rendering it in an outdoor scene with shiny IBL reflections or the common "global" plastic-figure lighting though.  ;)

"There was a Max user from Mars
Who thought the sun shone out of his arse
But when he used Poser
Fools called him a loser
So he went back to rendering cars."

Bahaha, great stuff!   :D

SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

I'll put up the stock Bryce scene against it any day! (Way back in version 3 we were already making jokes about newbies and the mirror-texture sphere hovering over an endless water plane.) ((That teapot has a long and honorable 3d history, though. It could almost be called one of the archetypal objects.)) (((And I can't help seeing that some people still insist on seeing software preferences and usages as being a value judgement aimed at them personally. Look, sorry, averages trump. You want to be respected for using Poser, then you have to earn that as an individual. Does no good to cry "Validate me and my use of Poser; my art is just as worthy as yours is!" That still won't get you into Bruce's old Bryce Select gallery. Rendering in Bryce is required there.)))

Who's a Trekkie?  It ain't me......partly due to the silly cult-like following which such things always seem to inspire.....and partly due to claims about someone being Vincent Van Gogh.........

There once was a Vulcan who quoth "I am not Spock"
But Van Gogh's soul in his body did dock,
So he wrote up a book
And a kooky tale he did cook
So years later he quoth "I am SpocK"

(And he made lotsa money doin' it, too!  Logical.)

Goes off humming Bilbo Baggins...................

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Ahem

Bryce has a reputation, too.  The difference being that all of the high-end app users actually know what Poser is -- even if they choose to despise it.

Whereas with Bryce, you're likely to be asked: "What's that?"

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I remember back some years ago, a more clued-in friend watching a movie with some generated backgrounds with me and groaning "Oh, god, not those Bryce fractals again!" Of course Bryce has its own albatross to carry around; its not-entirely-earned reputation for month-long renders. If I had to think about it, I'd say Bryce stays clear of the arguments because it isn't seen as in competition for the same eyeballs. Bryce art tends towards large magical landscapes, and for those it fights with Vue and Mojo -- not with Maya or Max. It is, perhaps, a little more self-policing. I think what annoys outsiders to Poser is that it behaves more like kudzu; turn your back and Poser crops up again -- and every time you cut it back it seems there's more and more of it.

A young Poser artist from Tokyo
was a Trekkie and knew about Spock, too
And she sold lots of Art
being clever and smart
and told elitists off with a F*ck You

(sorry there's nothing that rhymes with my own hometown...)

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You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

Love that Kudzu analogy nomuse. *[edit: Trekkiegrrrl - try "Pinochio"]*

Kort Kramer - Kramer Kreations

Quote - (sorry there's nothing that rhymes with my own hometown...)

 

Pinnochio...
Broke, yo!

My Freebies

Quote - and every time you cut it back it seems there's more and more of it.

 

That's true -- and it's also more nutritious than either alfalfa or barley for use in animal feed.  The downside being that no one has figured out a way to cultivate kudzu and make it commercially viable.  In other words: ya can't make money off of kudzu.  And that's where the kudzu analogy with Poser breaks down. 

@Trekkiegirl: no offense.  Spock sells very, very well -- there's no doubt about that.  Hey, I can even still enjoy the occasional re-run of TOS on cable.

BTW - matters of personal taste don't encompass "elitism".  Elitism involves a (usually small) group of people setting themselves above all other comers -- gathering themselves together in little groups -- and then constantly spending their time sniping at those "stupid people" over there who're not nearly as ultimately cool as we are.  This attitude can be found in the hallowed environs of the Poser community...............

But aside from that -- not everyone at CGTalk is an elitist.  CGTalk is an excellent place for those who are interested in high-end 3D (but so are the forums here & elsewhere).  I'd suspect that most CGTalk members are simply professionals, just doing their jobs.  But there are definitely elistists to be found among them.

Elitism exists on the personal level; elitism is reflected in personal attitudes.  A user of MAYA is not automatically -- by definition -- an elitist.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

"Which brings us to talent. The great intangible that no amount of schooling, no amount of plugins, no amount of $$$$$$$$ spent on content/application/whatever can provide. But here's the catch; no one has full blown talent. No one. Talent is like a tree; no matter =what=, you always start as a little nut in the dirt. I tripped over my writing talent quite by accident in high school. My worst subject was always engligh...mainly because it was always grammar, and for most real world situations, knowing how to split a participle just isn't all that important. But senior year, we were given a class long creative assignment; the old list of unrelated words to somehow work into something. A speech, short story, whatever. And the nut sprouted from the providing of a little bit of water and sunlight. But that tree of talent will only grow so long as it is given nourishment to grow...and faced with the storms of challenge to give it a reason to grow."  "Dale B"

I really, really; really agree with you here.  I personally started my "art career" at 5 lol, with crayons...(shhh i'll be 40 in april).  I drew snoopy and i was soo proud of myself.  I never stopped doing art, it just changed over the years.  Went from crayons to pencil to colored pencil....finally to acrylic paints.  Then I finally was able to get into to digital art, yup started that with pixel painting. 

I personally, don't see the problem with people using any medium they like.  As far as art goes, a picture my young children did i would put up against Van Gogh any day, because i like it, its special. I don't  like Van Gogh's art but that doesn't mean he's not an excellent artist.

I am new and the reason i stayed here is because i have met some really nice people.  For instance, if it weren't for a wonderful person here i probably never would have even made a human looking creature. She spent almost 12 hours online trying to help me.  Poser isnt that easy at least not for me.  I spend most of my time experimenting and every new picture seems to be teaching me a little more. 

As far as photography goes i find it to be its own artwork medium.  I have seen some beautiful photographs here and i find them to be just as good as anything else. 

Lol, im done now. 

If you had lived in Van Gogh's day, and if you had suggested that his work was someday going to sell for 100's of millions of dollars -- and that he would someday be considered by many to be one of the greatest artists of all time...........

.........you probably would have elicited a reaction not too far off from current reactions to comparisons of Poser with various high-end apps.  Only more so, no doubt.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Loving the Limmericks, btw!

Again, it is not the tool, it is what you do with it, and you really have to know how to pick your battles.  A Pose post on a mainly Maya site is going to be out of it's league.

It's like bringing a knife to a gun fight.

I will point out, though, that the original start of this was a posting on Deviant Art, and from what I've seen, everything flies there, so there members have nothing to get up in arms about.

Oh, and though I love Mr. Nimoy, think about this:

During the height of Star Trek's popularity in the late Sixties William Shatner agreed to do an album as it would be a hoot.

That was it, one album.  When ST ended he moved on and did other things like TJ Hooker.

Ove the course of the next decade Nimoy did ten albums and unliek Sahtner, he did many of the songs in character and went so far as to write his own, in character.

And he always seemed the normal one...

You don't get the point. I'm NOT from Tokyo.

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You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

Oh, oops.  I thought I was so clever.

My Freebies

Whatever happened to the original poster in this thread? I notice they never bothered to respond to any of the views offered by others. Rant and run eh?

 

PoserPro2014(Sr4), Win7 x64, display units set to inches.

                                      www.danielroseartnew.weebly.com

I thought the whole idea of art is in the eye of the beholder? I am in a maya class right now. The first night we had to stand and tell the class why we were there....why I don't know. At any rate a kid looking to be about 20's stands up and says he's taking the class because he uses poser and it sucks. Said he was tired of just posing and wanted to create something. Never saw him again. I think poser has it's place. If you don't like what folks create don't look. If it makes them happy and they want to post it, well I see no rules against it. I love Maya. Plan on using it a lot. But I also just bought poser 7 because I feel there is a real use for it. Without poser I would not have been able to buy maya. Everyone needs to lay off each other and stop trying to shove your ideas of what art is down other people's throats. Life is too short. Get over yourselves and just create.
Marque

Pengy rarely spends time here. He doesn't like Renderosity much it seems. At least not anymore.

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You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

hmm..if someone of such advanced years was 1 in a billion, there should be at least 6 of them wandering around..;)

I remember from AC Clarke that there was an estimated 100 billion people who had ever lived (so for everyone who did, there was a star in our Galaxy). But hey, we're up in Sagan numbers there anyways..;)

The number of people who live to be 100 has been increasing steadily over time, so it will become more and more common. (Germany started Social Security under Bismark; and set the age limit at 65, because at that time, about 1% of Germans lived that long)

One thing that tickles me is that (correct me if I'm wrong) is that until about 2004, there were 2 widows of Civil War veterans living. The Union one died then, and the Confederate one was about 105 or so, if'n I remember (wonder if she'll tell all..;)

The only thing I ever heard about Soupy Sales was something that got him thrown off the air in the 60's

"Hey kids! What starts with 'f', and ends with 'uck', and you can say it on the air? That's right! Firetruck!..;)

I don't know art, but I know what I like..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Hehehe...

Once, a Trek fan from Aarhus,
Whose house was in a caboose,
Poser'ed all day,
And rendered all night,
'Teh Nose', naked, on a moose

And they said it couldn't be done (or was that "shouldn't"?) ;p

I love Pengy & his ability to cause a riot ;)

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1341053

(Image above contains nudity)

This is in response to the original post. This image is most everything he ranted about.

It's nearly completely 'canned' by someone else, including the set and pose (well the pose is slightly tweaked and I did change up the lights abit.)

While this image wouldn't win any awards, IMHO it can stand on it's own and I'm just a mediocre poser artist...a true master can do remarkable, spectacular things. 

Poser (Bryce, Max, etc.) doesn't make bad renders, novices make bad renders!

Time to stop dis'ing Poser!

i7 6800 (6 core/12 thread), 24 GB RAM, 1 gtx 1080 ti (8GB Vram) + 1 Titan X (12GB Vram), PP11, Octane/Poser plugin, and a partridge in a pear tree.

Oh, and a wiener dog!

Quote - > Quote - and every time you cut it back it seems there's more and more of it.

 

That's true -- and it's also more nutritious than either alfalfa or barley for use in animal feed.  The downside being that no one has figured out a way to cultivate kudzu and make it commercially viable.  In other words: ya can't make money off of kudzu.  And that's where the kudzu analogy with Poser breaks down. 

Actually that's not true...kudtzu and maylasian reeds (another weed which grows like kudtzu) can be used for biomass fuel...unfortunetly every time they try to cultivated it for this purpose idiots fight it because they don't like weeds growing..not realizing that it's cut it burn it and it comes back later nature makes for an excellent renewable fuel source. 

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

Quote - Hehehe...

Once, a Trek fan from Aarhus,
Whose house was in a caboose,
Poser'ed all day,
And rendered all night,
'Teh Nose', naked, on a moose

And they said it couldn't be done (or was that "shouldn't"?) ;p

ROFL! Except that it doesn't actually rhyme, it's a VERY nice try :o) (and funny and fitting and all that ;o) )

Hehe now I'll have to make a picture of Him on a moose... just because :lol:

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You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

quick haiku ;)

TrekkieGrrrl renders
her stuff always looks the best
how does she do it?

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Actually, the Shat just put out an album in the last year or so entitled "Has Been".  Not sure how it compares to the wonderful "Transformed Man" which can fill a gap in any music collection.

Quote - And what with Wings3d, Blender and anim8tor being free > Quote -  

... Really? They really really is free? ... And I can model with them?? ... 

=by the way= applaudes to your rant

*hugs*
-Jen Dyck

Don't we have this discussion every year or so? 

Either way, I don't really mind poserdom being an economy.

Money into the hobby of poser keeps renderosity / daz / runtimedna / poserpros afloat.  Which in turn lets talented people like aerysoul for example to continue doing what they do and the poser hobbyist do what they do.

Do I agree that 95% of the poser renders on here suck ass?  Yes, mine included which is why I now post like once a year.

I guess to summarize, Renderosity has been the way it is now for a long time, it's good for business. 

Quote - in ref. to: http://market.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2674155  Use a pencil and a sketch pad and use stick figures to explain it on paper to yourself if you can't draw. * make your own skin texture sometime. See how it turns out. No, seriously... try it sometime. I realize that half the merchants in here can't even do that without buying/swiping someone else's 'resource kit', but this'll be your golden opportunity to shine, and to do something useful. * Okay, if that was too tough, then how about making your own clothing textures? Don't even bother using someone else's. While you're at it, make your own transparency maps for them, and turn what you've got into whole different clothing... the things are damned easy to make, y'know? ...someday, you might even go through life without ever having the humiliation of buying a 'texture pack' again. * make your own unique character from a base figure, without resorting to buying someone else's and then just tweaking a few dials. Please. For me? * get a free modelling program (Wings ferinstance, or Amapi), and build your own set, your own props. It doesn't require a degree in graphic arts to build a few primitives tweaked out to resemble whatever it is you're trying to make. Once you've mastered that, get some clothing together, and make a bit. This way you don't have to go out and buy a bit of clothing and the 48 zillion add-on texture kits for it just to try to stand out.  /P

I must say I am amazed at how illogical those who make this type of rant are.    And to think 
you are complaining about other peoples logic!  So here is some tough love for you. 

First, I am not a kid.  Second where do you get off telling everyone what they should do with thier free time?    

In the thread you linked the guy said he does not model and is not interested in modeling.   What part of that do you not understand?  Poser is not even a modeling application.  Keep in mind that for many poser users: 
THE BEAUTY OF POSER IS THE FACT WE DON'T HAVE TO MODEL.    THE BEAUTY OF POSER IS WE DO NOT HAVE TO CREATE OUR OWN TEXTURES.  THE BEAUTY OF POSER IS OTHERS HAVE DONE THIS FOR US SO WE CAN SPEND OUR TIME DOING WHAT WE REALLY WANT TO DO IN 3D.  

I put this in caps becasue I think it may sink in better than when the other fellow said it in lower case.   

There are those who have plenty of time but no money and then there are those who have more money than time.  The latter group can use poser to do things like create animations and scenes without having to learn how to make a decent model. 

You talk fondly of the past.  Back then people with poser had to spend allot of time to make an image/animation look as good as it would be now in a short time.   You admire that.  Guess what?  I couldn't care less what you admire.  I'm glad things look good in a shorter amount of time and require less technical know how.   I am confident that trend will continue.

Guess what else?  As technology grows there will be more and more people like me.   You can continue to grumble like a old fusspot for the rest of your life, or you can accept that technology will improve and people with no interest in modeling or creating models will be joining the 3d community. 

You might wonder: What could these people possibly want to do if not create thier own models and thereby get the admiration of folks such as yourself?

Well if you actually read what you were responding to, the guy you linked to said he is interested in animation and creating animations.   He is like me.  Perhaps you should look at people like him and myself this way:  We woudl like to write and direct the movie but not have to be the costume designer.    Did Steven Spielberg stitch every piece of clothing used in the movie E.T.?  Did he himself apply everyones makeup and manufacture E.T.'s costume?  

I don't care whether you believe Steven Spielberg is an artist or not.  Nor do I care whether you admire what he and other directors do. (perhaps in your mind only the costume designers are worthy of admiration, whatever I don't care.)  But if you accept the fact that some people in the 3d world now want to do what Spielberg does as opposed to what the costume designers do, then you will not find yourself getting so "torqued off."  

We don't want to do the same things you are interested in doing.  Sorry, if this bothers you but there really is no reason to get mad about it.   And yes its completely irrational for you to get torqued about it.  

Creating models for a 3d animation and writng and directing a 3d animation are simply two different interests.

You tell poser users to think of a good story before they do thier animation.  Well guess what?  you have to do that no matter what software you use.   I have seen plenty of bad animation made with non-poser applications.  Learning how to make your own models in LW3d or Wings will not make your plot better.  In fact taking time to learn those programs will simply take time away from your story creation.    Poser is for people who want to spend the most time on the story and directing part of 3D animation.  No other software I am aware of does better at that then poser.
   
And one more thing please.... please..... stop telling others what they should be doing with thier free time.  Most of us are not "Kids" who need to be told what to do. 

I think a large part of the problem is that there is a Poser specific paradox.  It's not just the amount of free and commercial content that people are tempted to use, but also that it's always taken some kind of black magic to get things properly into Poser.  I used Caligari (predecessor to TrueSpace) for years to make mecha (giant robots), vehicles, buildings etc.  The one thing I couldn't do easily in it was to model figures as there were no bones, morphs etc.  When I bought Poser I had ideas of using Poser figures sparingly in the background to add a new element to my work.  I couldn't (and still can't) believe how difficult it was to get even simple props to work right.  It took ages for me to discover that the obj format was the most neutral among my various tools and even after learning UV mapping I still had the problem of Poser trying to smooth all of my objects' hard edges.  I've since learned more about object import/export settings, preserving my groups, and even a little rigging.  I don't want to use a text editor or some strangely named utility to hack together a figure, nor would I imagine anyone would who was drawn to Poser for it's famed "ease of use".  I'm surprised that I can't think of one single program, from Anim8or to zBrush, that a person can use to create a Poser ready figure without ever touching Poser, its various related utilities, or an existing premade figure.  Anyone? 

Someone save a link to this thread so the next time someone has a rant about it, we can just pull all this discussion up. ;'] Some good points there Rondino.

Kort Kramer - Kramer Kreations

Quote - Please, drill that through your heads.
(CUT)
 

 

Nice 200,000 words preach. Too bad nobody asked for it.

You know something? People don't need your patronizing attitude.
So 99,9% of people here don't make art and just have fun with Poser?
That's their problem, not yours. Provided that this is a problem, that is (and I think it's not).
You are bothered by this? That's your problem, not ours.

Live and let live.

P.S.
"We don't need no education, we don't need no thought control"

Penguinisto,

I like all your points, they all click; especially creative thought.  How many big boobs and fat lips can one stand before we all yell a collective--ENOUGH!!! 

Say what you will about computer graphics, no matter the program, they are just another tool of artistic expression like a camera, paint brush, or hammer & chisel--it's the talent of the artist that will shine through. 

Personally speaking, learning the scope of a particular program drives my creative thought which in turn drives my desire to learn more.   For those who have a true love of art and want to create: they will be driven to learn from artists the rules and techniques to make the most of their talent and vision.

One of the things I appreciate most about Rendersoity is when a piece catches your eye, you can check out that persons gallery to see their progression: or often times wonder how it was done and thereby try and learn their technique; if the artist is willing to share and many do.

For those who are hobbyists, they will continue to make Vicky et al with big appendages to satisfy their prurient desires.  There is a distinction and Renderosity plays host to them all.  But that doesn't mean anyone has to give them attention.  When I go to an art museum, there are works I don't care for, same here.  Fortunately, some of that can be filtered.

Hopefully though, some will read your post and get it and Rendersoity will be the better for it.

Penguinisto !!!! This post should not be in the forum but in the main page of renderosity !!! I totaly agree with you !!!!! Someone told me one day  that click, click, comform to..., click, click and render does not make an artist.   And that's some of the cases with poser users. Poser is such a nice software !!!! There is so nice pictures but there is also so many craps as well.  I don't blame anybody because I myself do it sometimes (click and render...) . The only thing I can say is that there will be always this battle with poser against other 3d applications. It will stop when some poser user are going to take more seriously this software!!!!

quote:  THE BEAUTY OF POSER IS WE DO NOT HAVE TO CREATE OUR OWN TEXTURES.  THE BEAUTY OF POSER IS OTHERS HAVE DONE THIS FOR US SO WE CAN SPEND OUR TIME DOING WHAT WE REALLY WANT TO DO IN 3D.  

And, what, pray tell exactly what do you "Want" to actually DO in 3d.  You buy models, props, scenes, photoshop actions, poses, textures and premade light sets with that money that saves you time.....then what????   You hit "Render"?  Is that what you "DO" in 3d?

Quote:  "There are those who have plenty of time but no money and then there are those who have more money than time. " In my opinion, if you can use your money to buy the tools to give you more time to get to the nitty gritty of what you love to "DO"....there are no excuses anymore for crappy renders.  After all, that time you paid for can be put forward to try and make your render PERFECT.  Soooo, there is no excuse whatsoever for a poser user leaving vicki nekkid with crossed and vacant eyes in the middle of a poorly textured temple.  None whatsoever.

Also, it seems to me that it would be very hard to become good at animation without knowing the basics of "rigging" a character.  Yet, in order to optimally rig a character, the mesh show have certain optimum flows....(ie topology in facial areas....joints, poly counts, etc.)  Are you saying that you want to animate, but only something that someone else has modelled and rigged?  That's kinda another sort of "make art" button, isn't it?  " I wanna call myself an animator, but don't want to have to learn the basic craft at the bottom of all animations. : Sheesh.

Am I insulted?  Nope.  Do I do EVERYTHING you ranted about?  Yup.  I'm not going to stop doing it either.  I don't create art for you or anyone else.  I make it for me.  If anyone happens to enjoy it, then great.  I like to share.  If nobody comments or cares, it's really no skin off my back.  It's a HOBBY for me.  Hobbiests, last I checked, aren't required to be professional anything. 

I can't model, been trying to learn and it's sloooooooow going.  I can do simple texturing.  Complicated texture mapping seems beyond me.  Am I ashamed of any of it?  Nope, not at all and those who make their living doing this love me for it.  :lol:

I have to add that I looooove the condescending attitudes of some of you guys.  Get off your high horses, stop worrying about what 'everybody else' is doing and do your own thing.  You'll wake up a lot happier in the morning if you aren't worrying about what lazy, untalented slobs like us are doing.

Just a thought.

Quote - quote:  THE BEAUTY OF POSER IS WE DO NOT HAVE TO CREATE OUR OWN TEXTURES.  THE BEAUTY OF POSER IS OTHERS HAVE DONE THIS FOR US SO WE CAN SPEND OUR TIME DOING WHAT WE REALLY WANT TO DO IN 3D.  

And, what, pray tell exactly what do you "Want" to actually DO in 3d.  You buy models, props, scenes, photoshop actions, poses, textures and premade light sets with that money that saves you time.....then what????   You hit "Render"?  Is that what you "DO" in 3d?

 

I answered this in my origial post.  Knowing someone like you would not understand why anyone other than those who want to make models and content woudl be here.   Why don't you read my answer to this question?  

Understand that not everyone is interested int he same things you are.  

And by the way, why do the vast majority of female figures in this joint have lips that look like an inflamed horse's anus? The truth may sound painful, but it's so hilarious! Go Pengy!

Quote - quote: 
Also, it seems to me that it would be very hard to become good at animation without knowing the basics of "rigging" a character.  Yet, in order to optimally rig a character, the mesh show have certain optimum flows....(ie topology in facial areas....joints, poly counts, etc.)  Are you saying that you want to animate, but only something that someone else has modelled and rigged?  That's kinda another sort of "make art" button, isn't it?  

I want to create the script and direct the characters in the animation.   I would like them to look as good as they can.   Hence I am forced to learn a bit about 3d.   Yes thats right forced.  I do not want to learn the technical stuff.  I would much prefer that all the characters were premade and perfect and a hundred times easier to use.   I don't care whether you consider what I would like to do "art" or not.  Nor do l care what you think of writers and directors generally.    

Wow, Pengy, rant and run, huh?

As far as your /rant goes, some of what you listed I do, some I don't. I've tried modeling. I suck at it. My texturing capability is just as bad.

Conversely I rarely use pre-made poses, preferring to start from scratch. Pre-made poses rarely get the effect I'm looking for, especially the romantic poses I'm so fond of. Ditto lighting. Sorry, I don't have a digital camera nor do I own a scanner, so I don't create my own backgrounds.

I'm fiendish about using twisting and turning facial expressions and dials. Pre-mades don't cut it for me, especially with male figures. A lot of what I do have in the female characters are left over from all the beta-testing I used to do a couple of years ago, so I use 'em.

I've been around since "the good old days" and honestly they weren't what you're cracking them up to be. Aside from Poser 5 (which yes, I did use) the leaps forward have been nothing short of astounding. Even with Poser 5 we had several advances that, depending on the user viewpoint, outweighed the bugs.

Also, bear in mind, that even if someone uses everything pre-fab and clicks on render, that doesn't mean it'll come out worth looking at. The same goes for all the hard work you described.

One more thing to think about as well, while we're on the subject. I'll use myself as an example. I'm a mother of two sons, both just recently becoming adults. I work a standard forty-hour week, go to school part-time to get my Bachelors (MIS), am partially disabled, author romantic fiction, and do all the things real people do. I do NOT have the time to work everything from scratch. It takes hours to create a good render anyway (have one on my hard drive I've been at for two months now, in my spare time). I'm not about to figure in texture creating, modeling, and most of the other things you suggested.

There's my annual rant.

Linda

Brynna

"Occam's Razor: The simplest explanation is almost always that somebody screwed up." - House

   

Dell Desktop XPS 8940 i9,  two 14 tb External drives, 64 GB DDR4 RAM, NVidia RTX 3060 12 GB DDR5.

Monitor - My 50 inch Hitachi TV. Works great!

Daz Studio - whatever the latest version is. Haven't decided if I'm upgrading to Poser 13 or not.

Photoshop.

I'm creating a Steampunk Tarot Deck. There's an older version in my Gallery, then a newer version.

Lot of red sweaters posting on this thread.

Quote - Don't we have this discussion every year or so? 

Either way, I don't really mind poserdom being an economy.

Money into the hobby of poser keeps renderosity / daz / runtimedna / poserpros afloat.  Which in turn lets talented people like aerysoul for example to continue doing what they do and the poser hobbyist do what they do.

Do I agree that 95% of the poser renders on here suck ass?  Yes, mine included which is why I now post like once a year.

I guess to summarize, Renderosity has been the way it is now for a long time, it's good for business. 

Level headed thinking (above).

To further a point I wanted to make: There are people who consider themselves purists in every creative arena. Illustration buffs who consider trace ups sacrilege (despite the fact that it has been practiced since the advent of photography). Comic book artists who consider realists work stiff and unimaginative. Realists who consider comic book art to be anatomical torture of the human figure. Illustrators who think the use of 3D is cheating. 3D artists who know how tough good 3D is to create, thinking those illustrators are full of sh%t. Artists who think anything done on the computer to be fraudulent....
The list goes on.
When you have been around a while you will here all the BS.
The fact is that there are more creative tools then ever. Those who use them well will be good artists. It takes a lot of work to get there, and you are never good enough.

So learn to ignore the self anointed purists. They are hacks who should be spending their time improving their own abilities.

Still missing the point. Whether Poser is "Art" is an interesting but ultimately futile discussion -- and as noted, it re-occurs at least once a month. Pengy's point, tho, was you can't whine about not being respected if you refuse to play by the same rules. You want respect among people who model and texture their own, model and texture your own. You want respect among luthiers, it doesn't matter how good you PLAY a guitar! And you want respect among comic-book artists, it doesn't matter how good you are with oils. (Well, actually, all artists with skill and talent and vision get respected, across all boundaries. Those luthiers enjoy a good oil painting! Take in this context "respect" as meaning "am allowed to post in the same galleries as them, can hang out in their forums and talk shop, et al.") As much as you articulately defend your own choices, the ultimate point here was about trying to change the rules of someone else's game to accommodate you. By the by, Penguinisto has been writing tirelessly for decades on 3d art. He has been steadfast in trying to improve the breed and fight for respect of all 3d arts in the larger artistic community. This was not a seagull posting.

I did a panel at Dragon*Con one year.  I went toe to toe with Janny Wurtz in a cleverly titled battle called "Is Digital Art Really Art?"  Fortunately, her biases against the ENTIRE  medium (Not just talking about poser art here but digital art over all) made most of my arguements for me.

There's a crap load of bad Poser art out there, nobody will deny that.  For every 'wow, that's incredible' piece there are at least three dozen completely crap pieces (some of them are even mine!).  It's no wonder it gets a bad name.  I spent a lot of time myself, at art shows and conventions, slowly changing people's minds about the medium.  I was accepted by a lot of really talented artists as 'one of them' even AFTER they learned my process and how I don't create all my damn textures by hand or model my own models. 

It's attitude, talent and vision that will set the 'artists' apart from the hacks.  Me, I'm a hobbyist really.  I stopped doing commercial art some time ago because it's much more fun to create for myself.  I might start showing again, eventually, because I miss my friends.

While I see Penguinisto's point, underneath the vitriol and obvious disdain he has, there are better ways to go about making it.  Dropping a bomb and running away isn't a good way   It's classic internet troll behavior and, quite frankly, something I would have thought he'd be above.

I think Pengy's not been feeling like a welcome guest of late. Trust me; ttry being a raven for ten years and eventually people will start complaining about the smell of old bird around the place. You are ahead of me, Moxie....I gave up on "art" years ago. These days I'd be deliriously happy just to achieve "craft" once in a while. (Actually, I think removing the capital letters from what you do makes it a little easier to see it with a clear eye. I want out of what I do everything that an "artist" wants, but since I'm not trying to live up to that title I can let go of ego and concentrate on actual accomplishment.) I still say the basic problem is that Sturgeon's Law holds, and Poser is the word-processor of 3d; like the former allows more hack writers to fill up the slush piles and jam the transoms with unsolicited manuscript, the latter has created a situation where people cry that they aren't allowed to submit more than one image a day to online galleries. Has nothing to do with potential quality; just something that goes hand-in-hand with that wonderful democratization that the new technologies have also brought. Anyone can make art now, and that is a wonderful thing. Programs like Bryce and Poser brought a great many people that never thought they could paint or draw to being able to actually realize some of what they imagined. And some of these self-doubting users have turned out to be very, very good. And that's a wonderful thing. I miss, myself, the days when listening to music meant you and your friends gathered around the piano in the parlor. So much, these days, it seems we are drawing lines and saying "SHE is an artist, but YOU are just a normal person and aren't allowed to take part." But let's not let this open-ness and this wonderful willingness on the part of many to play blind us to a very basic idea; that if a thing is worth doing it is worth doing well. Or maybe at the heart of things there is a conflict here between Artiste and Craftsman. That nothing raises the hackles on the latter more than people who refuse to learn technique; and that the former is only interested in the "love me for my inner beauty" game played by every amateur poet out there. (I try to take a neutral view of this conflict, but it is hard as my blood is pure Morlock -- craftsman to the core, with an instinctive racial dislike of the Aht and Beauty crowd.) So is there no middle ground? Is it not possible for some of the posters to this thread to step back and say "Okay, I'm doing this for myself, it's only important that I do ART and whatever I want is all that is important.....but it wouldn't kill me to learn a little about Color Theory, and maybe even try my hand at making a mesh once. Who knows; I might like it!"

OR maybe pengy just loves to wind people up & let them run. :D

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

And LTD has BINGO!!!!!

Quote -
While I see Penguinisto's point, underneath the vitriol and obvious disdain he has, there are better ways to go about making it.  Dropping a bomb and running away isn't a good way   It's classic internet troll behavior and, quite frankly, something I would have thought he'd be above.

Pengy is Poser's classic internet troll.

Since he started working for DAZ he's been out of most of it which is commendable in keeping his bias out of it...of course he still drops a bomb a runs from time to time. 

Tirjasdyn
http://michellejnorton.com

I agree with a couple of the other posters.  Since the orginiator of this thread has yet to come back and add to this series of arguments he so proficiently started 6 pages ago...I consider his rant and whine null and void.

If you don't have the male danglies to answer points to your whining, then don't bring back a dead horse to whip.

Quote - I agree with a couple of the other posters.  Since the orginiator of this thread has yet to come back and add to this series of arguments he so proficiently started 6 pages ago...I consider his rant and whine null and void.

If you don't have the male danglies to answer points to your whining, then don't bring back a dead horse to whip.

But it makes popcorn taste soooooooo good ;)

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

:tt2: LOL!!  Be that as it may....

Quote - Still missing the point. Whether Poser is "Art" is an interesting but ultimately futile discussion -- and as noted, it re-occurs at least once a month.

Maybe the problem is understanding the clear seperation of the tool from the creation. There is a handful of artists I have seen who bend the program to there will - making decent art. I also have seen really ood illustrators use Poser as a starting point for digital painting. The medical illustration field now contains a lot of art that is referenced from poser.

Then there are those who just use what is already created and do renderings.

In 2D traditional illustration the technique of trace up is widely used, especially for portraits. The real illustrator does not slavishly stick to outlines - the amature does.

Quote - Pengy's point, tho, was you can't whine about not being respected if you refuse to play by the same rules.

Quote - the ultimate point here was about trying to change the rules of someone else's game to accommodate you.

Innovation comes from refusing to play by established rules.
That said I understand the point you are making.

Quote - "Well, actually, all artists with skill and talent and vision get respected, across all boundaries."

True; especially by those who have an underlying knowledge of the creative (technical aspects) process.

I may have mentioned this before but Poser is used in a certain daily newspaper in the UK every day & has been for a couple of years now.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Quote - Actually, the Shat just put out an album in the last year or so entitled "Has Been".  Not sure how it compares to the wonderful "Transformed Man" which can fill a gap in any music collection.

 

I liked it. He has a good sense of humor, and he had the sense to collaborate with people like Ben Folds and Henry Rollins. There are also a couple of touching songs, one about his late wife, and one about not being there for his daughter when she was growing up.

I'll definitely have to check out "Has Been".  I heard that it was coming out, which reminded me I'd always wanted to hear "Transformed Man" since I saw Ben Folds on TV telling Shatner it was the album that changed his life (or something to that effect).  Now to see if I can steer this back on topic...

Did anyone see/hear/read about the guy who recorded a song one note at a time and composed it in cakewalk (or something) and then made a video to match?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzqumbhfxRo

I like that concept alot, and it reminds me a bit of this discussion.  I've been in a few noise bands, and have always thought I'd like to take some of the nicer bits from my old tapes and try to produce an actual melodic pop song from them.  Watching this guy nonlinearly playing piano (I haven't heard it yet) makes me think that no matter how good the end result sounds, some people would never consider him a musician because of those methods.  I think that's some kind of sentimental purism, and I just don't seem to have the genes for that as some people do.  I actually think I might like the Grey album (Beatles+Jay-Z) better than the White or Black albums. 

...and the thread skews OT once again. ;'] I do quite like chuby 'ol Shat though and have enjoyed the 'debate' (as it were) very much. This has been a great thread, even if only taken at entertainment value.

Kort Kramer - Kramer Kreations

Who or what the heck is Shat? surely you don't mean William Shatner? I could just about tolerate him in Star Trek without having to listen to him mumble his way through a whole albums worth of horrible songs. Anyway what was the original point of this thread? wasn't it something about S&M & equine corpses?

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Quote - I may have mentioned this before but Poser is used in a certain daily newspaper in the UK every day & has been for a couple of years now.

:scared:  Uhhhhhhh, don't tell me 'Page 3' is now NVIATWAS ???

Gill

       

Quote - :scared:  Uhhhhhhh, don't tell me 'Page 3' is now NVIATWAS ???

I'm sure you'll be relieved to hear that's not "Page 3" :D that would be funny though, no I was actually talking about the Striker cartoon further back, you know the football thing? they've been using Poser figures for a couple of years now & they actually do quite a good job of morphing the figures they use, Vicky is unmistakable when they use her but some of the others have me scratching my head, I think they must use the addon morphs by Capsces.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Ah, it's been a few years since I read the Sun, or any newspaper for that matter.  I remember Striker though I used to avoid it - football - euk!  One thing I do miss is Hagar - he was funny.

Actually, the thought of the Page 3's being poser is quite amusing - and they'd probably look more realistic and have smaller boobs even if wyremastered than most of the enhanced human models LOL!

Gill

       

I thought the Black Album was Spinal Tap..;)
Heck, this is one of our perennials..the only thing to make it complete would be the return of the Pink Pony (woops, wrong thread..;) or the 'beating the dead horse' animation..;)

One of the nice things about being an old f*rt is that 'proving yourself' isn't such the be-all and end-all anymore...kinda liberating in a way..;) Have fun, make art, you can do both, or neither. It's all up to you.

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

WOW, artist telling artists how to do art.

Its crazy when you buy a piece of software and someone thinks its to easy to use so then decides that what ever is created with that software is garbage.

I guess with that said if you wanted to produce computer generated graphic and consider it to be art you need to....

Create your own textures, models, lighting and poses or animations.

Well lets take that further, if thats the case you should write your own software because using someone else's software makes it to easy to create renders.

And if we go further you should create your own programming language because using someone else's language is to easy.

and if we go further still, you have to design and manufacture you own pc because using someone else's design would be to easy. but what about electricity?

I know that I went to an extreme but these kind of topics are designed only to hurt someones feeling so that a couple of people can feel better about them selves.

Myself I don't care what people use to aid them is creating an image that they have envisioned, a person with an active imagination is a happier person.

If you don't like the software other people use so what, I don't use a Mac but I still respect the people that use them.

I said this in another topic and thought it made sense "if I carve into a piece of wood but didn't grow the tree does that make me any less an artist?"

There are a lot of personal users and large companies that use already made content, and they should if it fits into what they are doing.

I do encourage building you own models but only if you want to not because yo have to.

Penguinisto, its funny because its true!

Poser is easy to use (relatively) its cheap  its fun. Most of what gets done with it is very ordinary (to put it politely - mine included).  I spend money on graphics software because it seems better than wasting it on games. I get more fun out of it in the long run. It doesn't bother me that people render crap if they are getting a kick out of it but why oh why do they post everything they render? I have to admit  I NEVER look at the Poser gallery because there is always so much dross - I come here for some of the lesser galleries and to check the forums. 

I have noticed about this forum recently and check some of the opinions.

I found Daz Studio almost a year and Poser only 9 months ago, and just because I was looking for some Bryce info (refered by a friend in my Design school in college). When I finaly get them, I couldn´t believe the easy that they are to work with (at that time, I didn´t  have a Studio 3d max, and now I´m still learning how to use it). In my particular case, I´m a rookie in 3d matters. All my life I made hand drawing and then I started to use programs such as Corel or Ilustrator, but 3d is still something new to me, and Poser turns into a awesome tool to learn some of the basics.

Now I´m getting to the point. The works on Poser (or any 3d software) are art? Only those who intend to be art. I don´t  t know if most of works posted here are ART (in the academic sense of the word), but it doesn´t mean that they are "bad" or "ordinary". All depends if someone want to make his post as art. I don´t think I made art. After all, I´m a graphic designer not an artist (yet).

I think that this fight (to call it some way)is a constant in the art. The new forms, styles and conceptions are really art? Dalí, Miro, Picasso really made art? No for those who have a more classical conception.

But one thing is true. Have a camera don´t made you a photographer, have a canvas and some brushes don´t made you a painter. Have 3D max don´t made you a 3D artist.

Have the toys is only 1/3th of the game.

Perfection is a path, not a goal...

"One of the nice things about being an old f*rt is that 'proving yourself' isn't such the be-all and end-all anymore"

Being 57 yrs old myself, I like that. :-) 
Many seem far to preoccupied with what others think, and must not be all that comfortable with what they produce. Producing art solely for the appreciation of other artists, so to speak.

For some, the ends justify the means- for others, it doesn't. You can't blame Pengy for pointing out that Poser is generally considered a "low-end" app. That's how it's generally viewed in the CG world, and it's not his fault that it's viewed in that manner. All he did was tell some folks something they didn't really want to hear.
Likewise, those who dismiss work done in poser as "crap" are obviously not comfortable with their own abilities or limitations. I believe the true "pro's" will smile to themselves and offer encouragement. Directed encouragement will always be received better than criticism.

Of course, I'm wrong a lot, you can ask my wife.