The model sold here...
http://www.es3d.com/alien_scene.htm
...is directly ripped off from the freebie here....
http://scifi3d.theforce.net/details.asp?intGenreID=19&intCatID=44&key=623

A Narcissus as sold here...
http://www.es3d.com/narcissuspage.htm
...can be obtained for free from here...
http://www.lwg3d.org/v3/meshes.php?cat=35

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

OK, I downloaded the freebies, just to teach those evil Pirates a thing or two. So, how do I import them now into Poser?
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Those "Spells and Incantations" motion captures at that site.......
I'm sure I've seen those elsewhere as well....

<-insert words of wisdom here->

The 1st one is for lightwave 7 or 8. You'd need to convert them to .OBJ 1st.

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

es3d.com is Eclipse Studios, and they have models and motion capture files.

I doubt very much that they are ripping anyone off. I think it's vice versa where their products are being illegally distributed.

You should edit those freebie links out of your post because it's promoting copyright violation and pirating.

EDIT: I sent Eclipse Studios an email. I'm sure they will look into it and sort whatever the problem is out..

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Sorry and no offence Acadia - but you are incorrect here.

The 1st of those models was made by another (and well respected) lightwave artist and given away freely at Scfi-3d. Which is a very respectable site. The stolen version is being brokered at es3d. The 2nd has been avaliable for free for a while via the lwg.

I'd never support priracy or copyright violation. If you bought something at a poser store and discovered it was stolen, would you take the refund and keep quiet ? Or would you speak out to avoid anyone else being ripped off ?

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Acadia, Those freebie alien models were created by the lightwave modelers in the freebie links, the Alien Space jockey's modeling was shown from satrt to finish in posts at Lw3d by Sean Kennedy. Like wise the narcissus, these guys are pros, why would they rip off some poor amateur, when they can model it better themselves? These models that are being brokered on es3d.com are the rip offs. Really nasty as the originals are free. Ron

So, can replicas from movies be sold? I know Renderosity has a policy against it but it seems strange ES would sell them. Unless of course they're sufficiently changed but in their description they make it clear that these are exact replicas.

Cross-posted with mrsparky and RonGC before it was clear these are indeed ripoffs.

With you there Ron.

Kalypso - The issue here isn't about if things from movies can be sold, thats been debated 100's of times here and at other forums. This is another case of stealing another artists work and selling it.

Freebie creators spend many hours of their time working on stuff. It's simply plain wrong that someone should try to make a profit from their efforts.

It's the same for artists as well, how many times a month are there threads here showing a site with stolen artwork.

What does all this theft show to any artists outside the poser community ? It's hard enough to get publishers and artists to get over the 'poser is pervs' debate without being seen as crooked as well. Actions like this don't do anyone any favours.

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Ok, sorry. I wasn't aware of that. Thanks for clearing it up. I thought Eclipse Studios were on the up and up.

I do see on the site that they deal in "brokered items", so it's possible that they were not aware that it was modelled by someone as a freebie?

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Yes, I know mrsparky. I didn't make my point clear I'm afraid :) Since it's a replica from a movie a company that knows what it's doing would probably not sell it in the first place, and that in itself should arouse suspicions as to the credibility of this site.

It is unfortunate that these modelers' generosity is being rewarded in such a way. I wouldn't be surprised if fewer and fewer continue to share their work :(

Acadia - Yep it's possible they wheren't aware of the item. But why is still on sale today ?

Kalypso - your point was cool. 'cuse me rant :)

Don't worry stuff like this won't put anyone off making any freestuff. I've been skanked as both producer and a customer before and I don't stop making stuff :)

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

It doesn't look to me like they do much checking into who actually created or has the rights to any particular model. They just broker the sales.

So, whoever sent the pilfered models in to them is primarily at fault (and is getting most of the ill gotten gains from the sale).

However, if ES is going to put itself in the position of brokering sales, they should, at a minimum, get proof that the seller has good title to what they are selling ... or they are going to get burned.

Could be worse, could be raining.

There is way to much of this type of thing going on these days. If a person were to actually contact the original model makers you might possibly be able to work out a profit sharing deal with them on poserising models then selling the product. But no, these people think that by slapping a different texture on a pilfered model no one will notice. I guess low class equals stupid. Sorry but it just frosts me that they think i'm that naive and that they can get away with both shafting me and the models originator, all for a couple of bucks. SCUM! Ron

Hello everyone. Thank you for chiming in on this heated topic.

I am one of the CG artists who created the "Stolen" meshes. My name is Sean Kennedy and I'm a regular of this site and the Lightwave Group. The meshes in question are posted by artists who create these models for public use. Eclipse Studios has taken the meshes, converted them to a Poser format, and are selling them with no credit to the original artist and putting themselves and the artist at risk for copyright infringement.

1) An artist can create a 3D representation of copyrighted concept, as long as they do not make a profit. (That's why we post them for free use)

To convert a 3D model from one fromat to another does not change the fact that the original artist created the mesh. It's inconsiderate (not to mention fraudulent) to sell artwork created by another individual, especially if said concept is owned by another corporation (such as 20th Century Fox).

To resolve this issue I have:

1) Asked Eclipse Studios to remove the product from sale. If they do not, they will be hearing from my attorney.

They may post the mesh only if it is for free download. And if they wish to give the mesh away for free, then I expect them to post a notification stating that the original mesh was created by me.
I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting their actions.

Thanks for all your support on this.

Yikes.

You know, I could understand it if Eclipse didn't realize that one of their brokered artists was a thief. But they have to know that selling meshes based on blockbuster movies is a no-no.

I had been considering buying some of their mocap packs, but this kind of thing really makes you think twice.

Well, I bought about $60 worth of mo-cap from ES3D, and then found the site where some of the original mo-cap files were available for free. Nice.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Toe-curling!!

I guess just putting the word "Studios" on the end of your business name doesn't make you any more artistic than if you'd used the word "Hut"...

Beautiful work by the original modellers - The Giger and Cobb designs are not for the faint hearted!

Cheers

Well they did finally respond....Not exactly what I expected, but at least they are pulling the mesh.

Quote -
Sir,We were made aware of the situation a couple of days ago from
a customer who purchased the item. That is a brokered item, and was submitted
by a visitor to our site.

That was the only sale that item made since it was submitted.
We will remove the item as soon as we are back in the office, which will be Thursday night
US pacific time. We are on the road on business and will not be able to
remove the item till then.

Regarding " I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting your actions."
We aslo have an attorney. A good one. If you engage in any activity or actions which damage our reputation or our ability to sell our products, you will be held financially responsible and liablefor said damages.

"If you do not I will be force to report this to your ISP, your web host and Paypal" Once again, I reiterate, any attempt to liable our us or our site, or damage our ability to make a loving , and you will be sued for lible and damages. We make every reasonable attempt tp ensure that items submitted to us are original items of the person submitting.

As stated, we will remove your mesh tomorrow night, as we are on the road on business. We dont want it, ot need it. We made no money on it.
We will send you the email address and contact information for the person who submitted it. You can threaten that person. Dont threaten us.
If we see so much as a single word in any venue, liabiling us or our website and we we sue you personally for damages.

As was pointed out, they got the mesh from a third party. Thanks for the support and suggestions

Wow. Nice people.

This was my response. I treid to be as polite as possible without saying something really rude.

Quote - Sir,

Thank you for responding so promptly to my message.

I apologize for sounding so harsh and threatening a lawsuit, but this is not the first time this has happened to me and some people seem to have the attitude the rules don't apply to them. After a while, having people rip you off gets old. I appreciate you pulling the mesh from your site.

May I enquire as to how you follow up on submissions? Do you have a written protection policy in place for submissions; one that I can refer to when speaking to the individual who posted my mesh to your site? The sites I originally posted my mesh two have binding legal agreements on the usage of downloaded meshes. With these, and any documents you have for submissions, I should be able to bring legal action against the person who posted it. I also appreciate that you are willing to send the contact information of the person who submitted it. I would like to talk to him and find out exactly what he thought he was doing.

It is good that you made no money on the mesh, as that would have put us both in jeopardy of selling copyrighted material.

Regards,

Sean Kennedy

Good to see some resolution coming out of this Sean. Ron

You handled that well - much better than getting into a "my attorney is bigger than your attorney" p*ssing contest when the design copyright holder's attorney is bigger than both anyway.

Hang on to a copy of their product page - the product description at least suggests they weren't keeping as keen an eye on what was going into their store as maybe they should have:

A richly textured and highly detailed prop of
the dead alien pilot scene from the movie Alien.
This prop comes in two parts and is supplied in
Poser prop format. An excellent and unique scene
for your Poser animations.

Hopefully the 3rd Party's downloading of your mesh has been logged somewhere is some form so they can't pull the old "I found it on a college computer" ruse.

Cheers

Gawsh... that letter from es3d is so non-business like. They're doing a disservice to themselves by protesting too much. Looks like some kid pretending to be a business... wow!

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Let alone the poor use of English. They may not be Americans. To quote them: "any attempt to liable our us or our site, or damage our ability to make a loving" Sounds to me like you've made em' so nervous they won't be able to perform in bed! :b_tonguewink:

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things! ; )

Is that response taken directly from their email ? Threatening the wronged party knowing they have made a mistake just makes them look even worse. If that was not enough, their response is full of spelling mistakes, very professional (not). Agree with Connieket8, their response and attitude will be the most negative effect on their reputation, the fall out of any suggestion of action against a wronged party puts them on the radar of every artist.

www.CambrianMoons.com

Nice to see you got it resolved there Sean.

Hopefully the free site which is the source for some of the mocaps can also put a stop to this thievery. We shouldn't have to be think 'is this ok' when we buy something.

We should be able to use Poser for what it's designed for, making great art and above having fun!

So on that note, and with Seans explict permission, a poseried version of his model will be made available for free later this week. So then everyone can enjoy it.

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Cool!

Has anyone ever tackled the Alien from the original film? I don't think I've ever seen him anywhere.

Cheers

This is a damn shame. I've dealt with these guys and I was looking forward to buying a load of their mocaps. Now, I'm just confused. The unprofessional reponse in their letter is what really gets me. It's one thing to have a bad item for sale froma thrid party, but it is an entirely different matter to treat people so poorly.

What happened to ethics and good will in business?

Don't they know word spreads really fast ont he net?

I'm absolutely disgusted.

Yes the alien has been poserized they have the Alien Drone for FREE (click on the alien motion link) at the above mention site there is another place that have the Alien Queen and a mech alien but I don't remember the site i will look it up unless someone find it first

You might as well PAY attention, because you can't afford FREE speech

Anyone know who Miles Jackson is? His is the name under the prop as being teh brokered artist.

**Thanks again for all your support.

To answer questions: Yes this was taken directly from their e-mail response.
This was their second response to my inquiry about their follow-up and protection policy. Again taken from their e-mail.**

[QUOTE] This has happend to us before, and I am sure it will happen again.Other than asking someone to tell the truth when they ,

theres not much more we can do.We dont have the time to

research products that are submitted to the site.

I will send you the info friday morning..[/QUOTE]

I don't know if they are intentionally being unprofessional or they just dont care. If they did sell any copies of the mesh, it would make both them and me liable for copyright infringement. I don't know about them, but a $100,000 fine scares the crap out of me.
Hopefully they will give me the contact info on the person who submitted it. I don't actually want to sue them, but they need to understand how serious this is. I work for Sony and we deal with copyright issues all the time. If you're in the wrong it can cost you big. (up to $100,000 for each incident - plus any rulings in favor of the plaintiff if they decide to sue)

I'm coming in late on this, but I note that the other model mentioned by mrsparky (the narcissus) is marked as an exclusive item, not as a brokered one. Oh, and the text which accompanies it says "This is the only 3D Model of the Narcissus ever made." which is clearly no longer the case, given that one is available at the LW site for free.

Steve

BTW, on their website, Eclipse Studios cliam the shuttle craft is: "Created from drawings and photos of the original prop from the movie Alien, this highly detailed and fully textured 3D Model is an exact replica of the Narcissus escape shuttle from the first movie in the Alien quardology. This is the only 3D Model of the Narcissus ever made." This one is also NOT a broker item, but an original model from them. The Alien pilot is the brokered item. If this kind of incident (where the "brokered artist" have misrepresented their wares) have happened to them before, and this is (let's assume) their second time, one would think they would take a stronger stance against such things and to make every attempt to prevent this kind of thing from happening again after the first incident. i.e. legal contracts, a Google search, and/or compare the meshes. If one spends all that time starting up a business, "we don't have time" is kind of a strange response. I hate to tell you this, but it's likely you'll get a free email address that'll lead to a dead end. Strictly my opinion, of course. Listed at the end of the post is their domain registration information. I will leave it up to the reader to draw their conclusions. Here's a summary of the information that we have about ES: - accepts Paypal as only payment method - hosted by Yahoo - emails come directly from what appears to be a residential broadband account - "no time" to properly verify product origins - less than stellar communication skills - domain registration info seems to be phony (I can't find the address in Chino, CA) Domain Name.......... es3d.com Creation Date........ 2004-12-20 Registration Date.... 2004-12-20 Expiry Date.......... 2007-12-20 Organisation Name.... john smith Organisation Address. 1234 smith drive Organisation Address. Organisation Address. chino Organisation Address. 92880 Organisation Address. CA Organisation Address. UNITED STATES Admin Name........... john smith Admin Address........ 1234 smith drive Admin Address........ Admin Address........ chino Admin Address........ 92880 Admin Address........ CA Admin Address........ UNITED STATES Admin Email.......... deliveryservices@hotmail.com Admin Phone.......... +1.9515729881 Admin Fax............ Tech Name............ YahooDomains TechContact Tech Address......... 701 First Ave. Tech Address......... Tech Address......... Sunnyvale Tech Address......... 94089 Tech Address......... CA Tech Address......... UNITED STATES Tech Email........... domain.tech@YAHOO-INC.COM Tech Phone........... +1.6198813096 Tech Fax............. Name Server.......... yns1.yahoo.com Name Server.......... yns2.yahoo.com

Quote - I'm coming in late on this, but I note that the other model mentioned by mrsparky (the narcissus) is marked as an exclusive item, not as a brokered one. Oh, and the text which accompanies it says "This is the only 3D Model of the Narcissus ever made." which is clearly no longer the case, given that one is available at the LW site for free.

You beat me to the punch! ;)

I'm late on this bandwagon too lol! Just reading this string today after a break for the holidays. I find this whole thing utterly ........... irritating to say the least. The response to you was abysmal.

What I have the hardest time with is their immediate threat to sue for libel against them or whathaveyou if you say anything bad about their site. Thats proposterous! I'm supposing they don't realize this is the united states, and one can (and should) voice an opinion. You can and have every right to write a review on whatever you see fit.

Especially, considering the information is true!!

Its pretty pathetic if they host the site and maintain it, and its their rep on the line, they dont check out whats there to sell to protect their own interests!

Sean,

That first letter from es3d really sounds like from a rude punk kid,
but he did get nervous by your notice, so nervous as to write:

"any attempt to liable our us (ass?) or our site, or damage our ability to make a loving"

He doesn't know the word liable isn't a verb, either --
makes me think maybe it's his lack of English proficiency that hampers his efficiency in checking the products submitted to their site.

( I don't mean to imply that he is a foreigner, btw; I suspect he's just a rude punk kid.)

Well, at least now we know for sure what attitude the es3d guy has, and I will avoid buying anything from their site for sure.

.

Has anyone posted anything about this in the Daz forums? I ask because I swear it is through Daz that I first found es3d and I remember seeing him post in the forums over there on rare occasion.

I just think the word should get around.

Quote - BTW, on their website, Eclipse Studios cliam the shuttle craft is: "Created from drawings and photos of the original prop from the movie Alien, this highly detailed and fully textured 3D Model is an exact replica of the Narcissus escape shuttle from the first movie in the Alien quardology. This is the only 3D Model of the Narcissus ever made." This one is also NOT a broker item, but an original model from them. The Alien pilot is the brokered item.

You wonder what checks they make on anything. If you look at this box artwork for a Japanese model kit of the Narcissus, you'll see the prominent 20th Century Fox notice at the bottom. We can safely assume that this notice didn't get there without making time to do some "checking". http://www.fantamodellismo.altervista.org/alien/foto_spiegazioni_narcissus/narcissus_01grande.jpg If these guys are playing fast and loose with their "own" products, is it any wonder this kind of thing happens.

www.CambrianMoons.com

Hi
I have just seen this thread and I too am shocked at their response. As stated by others here it really does seem like some punk kid has written it. I for one will not be buying anything from ES3D. If that's the reponse they give when they are clearly in the wrong, I dread to think what their customer support would be like if someone was looking a refund for any of their goods that were not up to par.
I for one feel like writing to them and stating that on the strength of how they treated Eromanric, I will be boycotting their site - maybe if enough of us did that it would make them re-think their customer service a bit. Maybe its time large companies (if that's what it is rather than some kid operating out of their bedroom!) felt the power of forums.
Would that be OK Eromanric? (dont want to get you into trouble though!)

Sean, even though I agree with all the remarks made by people here concerning copyrighted material and it's illegal use, I have to say I'm slightly surprised and disappointed in your posts here. Telling us the models are being brokered illegally from Eclipse Studios is fair and justified and as potential consumers it is justified to warn us, but pasting the contents of the emails for the public to see, I find is bad manners. Emails are sent as confidential and should only be made public with the permission of the sender.

I can understand your frustration and anger, but that is no reason for a lapse in good manners.

Cheers

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

YouTube Channel

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

ThrommArcadia : the TOS at Daz doesn't allow you to post issues like this there.

I actually thought about this for a day or 2 before posting here. Normally if I get burned I think, nuts and other expleteives and never buy from that person again. But I I'd replied to a couple of folks who'd seen an image I'd created asking where to get it. Didn't want them to get burned so I posted.

Cheers - no offence but I think Sean did the right thing. He was the victim here and that mail only confirms the kinda attuide that some folks give when they get caught out.

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Quote - Emails are sent as confidential and should only be made public with the permission of the sender.

There's no such thing as a confidential email in this context. If person A sends an email to person B, A has to accept that the email might be made public by B - as a letter might be. An email or letter would only be regarded as confidential if the disclosure of its contents would be illegal (e.g. a matter of national security or a criminal investigation) or contained information which one or both parties were under a professional obligation to keep secret (e.g. medical or legal information).

It might be bad manners under some circumstances to disclose a personal email (not here incidentally - I think it was quite right to publish) but there is no other obligation not to disclose. Indeed, disclosure or the possibility of it may be essential in some cases to put pressure on someone behaving badly. Basically, apart from exceptions such as the above, if you put something in writing, you'd better accept it might be in the public domain the next day.

Steve

You might be interested to know the model has NOT been removed -- I just clicked the "Add To Cart" button on their page and in it went no problem. Direct PayPal link, too. Of course I am not going to buy this item, what these people have done is blatant misappropriation of somebody else's work. Shame on them for ripping Sean and their customers off that way.

Quote - Telling us the models are being brokered illegally from Eclipse Studios is fair and justified and as potential consumers it is justified to warn us, but pasting the contents of the emails for the public to see, I find is bad manners. Emails are sent as confidential and should only be made public with the permission of the sender.

I don's see all email 'equal'
Posting emails sent in confidence by a friend, or someone we pretended to be friendly with, in order to ridicule or hurt them, would be bad manners and betraying a friend's confidence.

Posting copies of business correspondence in order to share with friends or participating community of some company's shady or unethical business practices is a whole different type of email. I'm not aware of any kind of inherent expectation of confidentiality in business correspondence. Being a small business owner myself, since early 1990's, I'm painfully aware that any business correspondence I make in the name of business is public knowledge and record, unless I specify in writing that it is confidential communication. Even then, it's confidentiality is limited. Moreover, when a person is a sole proprietor, much of personal communication can come under scrutiny and reflect on the business.

Speaking of public record, I wonder if the guy has a business license... If it's a real business, then all this info should be public record, filed with the county of (Chino I believe is Riverside County... about 5 miles from where my office is), and a business license issued in the city of Chino.

Much like anyone in the world can find my business name, ownership info, business license etc, which is how it is when it's a legitimate business.

For example, if I received such complaint, I would be apologizing profusely for the oversight, because I know that the responsibility of what my business does lays on me, and hoping that the artist whom was infringed upon is appeased enough and sees it as an honest mistake or an oversight, and is forgiving enough to not seek damages (including punitive).

As a business (owner) I have to watch very closely the legalities and appropriateness and copyright and intellectual property laws and contract laws of everything that runs through my business. As a business, I have an obligation to do that. Saying I have no time... I'd open myself to damages arising from negligent business practices, for one.

Courts usually don't have a lot of patience or sympathy or lenience for ignorant business practices. They tend to hold business and their owners to a higher degree of responsibility then consumers or lay persons.

Anyway... just my 2c worth of soapbox tirade on business practices...

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Hmm.. Interesting. In the bad way.

I've bought quite a few of their mocaps. I'm surely not going to deal with them anymore. It just doesn't seem like they're really legit. nd it does make me wonder where they've got the mocaps. I've until now assumed that they WERE a "studio" and made them, now I'm not so sure. Especially not since Helgard mentioned finding some of the mocaps for free...

Bvhfiles.com is the best place for free mocaps. One of the very few places as well.

re the 'email is private' debate - I was once told by a network admin always assume email is as secure as a postcard. Particulary if you mail from work as email can be read by techies or your boss.

I've read stories how people have been sacked because of the content of their mails. Usually because they've described in lurid detail how theye 'enjoyed the company' of a colleague :)

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

I was going to buy those Spellcaster ones when I first saw them mentioned in the Daz forums. But the price was more than my poor abused wallet could handle so I put it on my "wait" list. But after seeing this, I'm glad I was broke at the time. TG, my sympathies, that just sucks. Too late I daresay to even ask for a refund?

this is really a shame.
the internet can be sooo good and sooo bad at the same time...a damn shame.

i'm glad that you have resolution, but i fear there is more in store.

Comitted to excellence through art.

At this point I want them to provide me two things:

remove the mesh from their site
give me the contact information of the submitter so I can have an offline discussion with him.

They have promised to do both by Friday.... we'll see if it actually happens.

Cheers,

I agree that it could be bad manners to post their responses. I'm not trying to be petty, but I do want them to take a more serious look at their business practices. I also want to warn people that this type of thing is occuring.

Last year I had to do the same thing with a completely different site. They were very apologetic and took the mesh down immediately. As it turns out the submitter was a 14-year old kid who didn't know any better. After a discussion with him about copyrights and mesh distribution, he agreed not to do it again. With adults it's a bit more difficult. Adults don't like to admit they're in the wrong (myself included). Most adults will admit their mistake and move on.

Am I wrong to want things to change? Am I going about it in the wrong way? If so, please tell me and next time I'll handle it differently.

buddy, i don't think you are doing anything wrong here or are acting in an unprofessional manner. regardless of the age i think it would be prudent to remain professional, but firm.

if someone else was making money off of my freebies (and i think my freebies are definately worth some cash) then i too would be put out (said midly with sarcasm).

unfortunately, you are on a new roller coaster and we are riding with you (at least myself that is). i have no guidance to offer you other than try to collect a paper trail for possibly future proceedings.
make quick and certain deadlines (for compliance assurance).
stay professional.

Comitted to excellence through art.

Well, they've removed the link for the mesh from their models page, but the direct URL still exists....and they have yet to provide me with the contact dat on the person who posted it.

It's a start.

If they dont remove your items entirely, you might need to send a C & D letter....that way they will know that things are about to get really serious, {or they should}...its a first step in legal action, and signifies you have done everything possible before you drop the bomb. ;)

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

I'll wait until midnight PST, then if they haven't responded I'll send an e-mail.

if they're using a fake name and address for their site registry, paypal and the website registry service should also be notified of the possibility of fraudulent activity in regard to the website. but now, before I buy anything from them (as with turbosquid), at least I know to check first to find out if it's available as a freebie elsewhere. in the meantime, anybody doing a search for es3d.com in either google or this website will get the whole sordid story. several years ago, when I first visited the site, I assumed the guy had difficulty communicating in english because he was located in some non-english-speaking country. it turned out i was right - he's located in california :lol:

Ah! The California Schooling system...... Makes you so proud..... :P

I have had dealings with them, but not good a one. I bought the arabic buildings props.

You can't even rotate them, some of the models aren't finished and some of the textures are not good either.

I contacted them, but no response.

I will not be buying anything from them in the future.

Eromanric, you are acting completely professional. I think you have a lot of support on this issue, not to mention precedence. Anyone who watches newscasts like 60 Minutes has seen e-mails and letters from corporations displayed and quoted.

You're misadventure here has uncovered an ugly truth about this little company. These people need to learn how to run an ethical, professional business. They may have lots to offer (assuming not everything on their site is stolen), but they will not succeed with such an arrogant attitude.

I am glad this came to light. I use much of my art for professional purposes and I need to be absolutely clear that what I am purchasing is legal for me to use. I know there are others in the same boat. This not only has warned me of a site I was intending to do business with, this has also smacked me upside the head and told me not to take everything for granted. Sometimes I just trust the surface a bit too much, and if this had not come into the light, I could have ended up in some painful legal trouble down the road.

Imagine if I was working on an animated TV sequence and we bought your model from these people and used it on TV. (Unlikely since, at least, they did note it was from a copyrighted movie), but let's say it wasn't, or let's say I purchased soem of their nift mocaps only to find they were not the true authors?

Now, let's say I was doing contract work for a Studio that needed a sequence done.

You can see how this could very quickly roll into a very ugly situation.

I have no tolerance for someone who will steal and jeapordize my lively -hood for their own ill-gotten gain!

I want to see this company go down or at least I want every single person to know of their questionable business practices.

You (and MrSparky) saved me some potential grief. I now worry about others who are not active in forums.

libel, the written defamation of someone, is quite different from liable (or actionable), which is what they'd be if they continued the case...;) How ironic.

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Quote - http://www.es3d.com/narcissuspage.htm
...can be obtained for free from here...
http://www.lwg3d.org/v3/meshes.php?cat=35

The NARCISSUS models are not the same. Try again.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

Upon very close examination, I think Shonner is right. The Engines on the lightwave model appear to be different, specifically the protruding vents.

But, i do not have both meshes to compare.

Hmmm..maybe, cant get a close enough shot off the first link...but isn't it odd that they are removing the mesh?..if it wasn't the same, why remove it?

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

No offence Shonner. I didn't say the 2 Narcissus model where the same thing.
I wrote: "...can be obtained for free from here".
Though apologies to anyone if I wasn't clear enough.

The alien space jockey model is a direct rip though. And I stand by that statement.

If that store didn't sell stolen meshes this wouldn't be an issue.
We'd be all doing the usual things like debating V4's beaver :)

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Quote - Hmmm..maybe, cant get a close enough shot off the first link...but isn't it odd that they are removing the mesh?..if it wasn't the same, why remove it?

Because selling it is an infringement of a 20th Century Fox copyright. Like the "Aliens" stuff in the store on this site that's been mentioned in another thread.

It's Saturday afternoon, 17:10 GMT in the UK, and I can still click on a PayPal link to buy the Space Jockey. Is California in a different time continuum as well as a different time zone ?

www.CambrianMoons.com

Quote - Well they did finally respond....Not exactly what I expected, but at least they are pulling the mesh.

Quote -
Sir,We were made aware of the situation a couple of days ago from
a customer who purchased the item. That is a brokered item, and was submitted
by a visitor to our site.

That was the only sale that item made since it was submitted.
We will remove the item as soon as we are back in the office, which will be Thursday night
US pacific time. We are on the road on business and will not be able to
remove the item till then.

Regarding " I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting your actions."
We aslo have an attorney. A good one. If you engage in any activity or actions which damage our reputation or our ability to sell our products, you will be held financially responsible and liablefor said damages.

"If you do not I will be force to report this to your ISP, your web host and Paypal" Once again, I reiterate, any attempt to liable our us or our site, or damage our ability to make a loving , and you will be sued for lible and damages. We make every reasonable attempt tp ensure that items submitted to us are original items of the person submitting.

As stated, we will remove your mesh tomorrow night, as we are on the road on business. We dont want it, ot need it. We made no money on it.
We will send you the email address and contact information for the person who submitted it. You can threaten that person. Dont threaten us.
If we see so much as a single word in any venue, liabiling us or our website and we we sue you personally for damages

As was pointed out, they got the mesh from a third party. Thanks for the support and suggestions

What exactly did you expect? From your earlier post:

Quote - To resolve this issue I have:
1) Asked Eclipse Studios to remove the product from sale. If they do not, they will be hearing from my attorney.

They may post the mesh only if it is for free download. And if they wish to give the mesh away for free, then I expect them to post a notification stating that the original mesh was created by me.

I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting their actions.

You went at them with guns blazing. Personally if someone sent me a letter like that I wouldn't exactly be nice and cordial in my reply back.

Right off the hop you mentioned law suits and the intention to slander their site around the internet. Personally that wasn't very nice of you. It also wasn't very nice to post their private correspondence to you here.

You accomplished your goal of having them remove the mesh from their site. What was the purpose of posting their reply to you other than to slander them and their reputation.

Sorry, but while I sympathize with the fact that you are upset about finding one of your meshes up for sale on their site, their reply to you was nothing less than you deserved given the way you approached them about the situation to begin with.

You get far better results with a tongue of honey vs one of flame, and you earn more friends and alies too.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Quote - Right off the hop you mentioned law suits and the intention to slander their site around the internet. Personally that wasn't very nice of you. It also wasn't very nice to post their private correspondence to you here.

It's only slander if it's not true. As a hypothetical example, if someone is convicted of a crime and I spread that fact all over the internet he might not like it, but he can't sue for slander/libel.

Conniekat8 and I have already posted about the publication of 'private' emails - which doesn't even apply here since this was clearly business correspondence. If you haven't read them read Connie's post - it's better than mine.

Steve

it's slander if spoken, libel if written. an e-mail is not a privileged communication, if any of the recent court cases are good precedent. however, there may be a reasonable expectation of privacy in regard to e-mails sent by "john smith" (if that's his real name) to his attorney, clients or doctor. hence it would be a breach of privacy if "john smith" released public information about the person who sold or purchased an item that was freely available elsewhere IMVHO. (I ain't a lawyer)

I'm sorry Acadia, I have to completely disagree with you.

The proper action when something like this occurs (a stolen item, be it your mesh, your photos, your art, whatever) is to send a Cease and Desist Letter.

What was sent was a step below that.

And, frankly, if someone comes at your business swearing and frothing at the mouth, but they are still right, then the only way to handle the situation is to be as polite and professional as possible.

Anyone who is told that their actions will be reported upon in a public medium should be on their best behaviour.

I do not know why you would insist on defending these guys.

**Do you think that running a business as John Smith from 1234 Smith St. is a good sign?

Do you think selling copyrighted material is a good sign?

Do you think that selling stolen Meshes is a good sign?

Do you think writing a sloppy threatening letter is a good sign?**

What exactly needs to be defended here, our right to be suckers!?

Quote - I'm sorry Acadia, I have to completely disagree with you.

That's ok. We can't always be in agreement with everyone. We are all individuals and each entitled to our own point of view.

Quote - I do not know why you would insist on defending these guys.

I'm defending no one. And I am on no one's side.

I'm simply advocating for treating people with some decency.

I found the initial way that ES were approached to be offensive and was pointing out to the person that if you go in with guns blazing, don't expect a polite reply back. His initial contact was drastic and his tone hostile, for a first communication. I simply feel that the reply he got was because of the tone of the communication he sent.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I'm all for decency and politeness, but wheres it's deserved.
But I'm with Throm here on this one. That mail was more than fair.

Also consider the 1st post here, can that also be considered as morally unfair or unreasonable ?

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Acadia,
Have you ever seen a 'CEASE AND DESIST' order? I assure you that compared to those, he
WAS polite. 20th Century Fox would have sent a VERY blunt and threatening C&D and if they
had received a response like the one that was sent, they would have started the lawsuit without
further delay. When defending your intellectual property, you MUST go in with guns blazing.
Anne MecCaffrey (Dragonriders of Pern) once posted on her board, that if intellectual property
isn't defended vigorously, you could possibly lose your copyright. It's why the big studios go
after violators so quickly.

Greywolf

PS: 'John Smith'? '1234 Smith Street''?! Please tell me you're joking!

Well, Monday morning, bright and early, I'm calling an old friend at 20th's legal dept. I'm sure they will love knowing about "Keith B"'s use of their copyrighted material.

And, frankly, I don't think they are going to give one tiny s**t about his "right" to make a "loving."

(And, no, I'm not going to bother him with this over the weekend, and, yes, I do want an excuse to call and just chat .

Could be worse, could be raining.

Well, that was creepy. I posted the above, and it posted about 12 times. Had to go back and do a bunch of deleting.

Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo, spooky. ES3D must be listening in!!

Could be worse, could be raining.

Quote -
Anne MecCaffrey (Dragonriders of Pern) once posted on her board, that if intellectual property
isn't defended vigorously, you could possibly lose your copyright.

No, that's trademark that you have to defend or risk losing it.
A copyright remains valid whether you defend it or not.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

On copyright and trademarks, there are some nasty pitfalls around the setting for a series of works. If I recall correctly, Marion Zimmer Bradley got caught by that over her Darkover series. Copyright covers a specific work, such as "Amazon Queens of Poserworld". You need other methods to protect the idea of Poserworld. Yes, the address is weird. I'm not a lawyer, and I'm especially not competent in US or Californian law, but combined with the other elements it may be criminal--something like wire fraud. It would be possible to make life very unpleasant for this guy.

It's not about who's mean or nice, right or wrong. It comes down to who has the best lawyer.

www.youtube.com/user/ShawnDriscollCG

If it comes down to lawsuit, there is no contest when someone is so clearly in the wrong.

The es3d guy is no O.J. Simpson, so even Shapiro cannot win the case for him.

To my knowledge, Business and Personal Mail (and email) are in a totally different catagory. A business owner too, can use your mails to them and make them pubic if they are "blacklisting" you, for various reasons.

I think you are totally within your rights to disclose unprofessional behavior to a community that might use this person's services. People do have a right to know who they are dealing with.

As for lible, I wonder if they would sue Consumer Reports too, if there was a bad article on them in there LOL.

All I really want at this point is all references to the mesh removed from their website (which they are working on), and an apology from them or the person responsible for posting the mesh .

Quote - > Quote - 3) I will be posting messages on this board and several others, reporting their actions.

Right off the hop you mentioned law suits and the intention to slander their site around the internet. .

Woah Acadia... Slow down there. He told them he would be reporting their actions. That's a far cry from saying "I'm going to Slander You". First off, the written or posted word would be libel, not slander and second, it's only Libel if it's not true.

Now to the issue of posting Private emails. It's not "Illegal", however it IS against the "Renderosity TOS" rules. If I had posted emails to me from the VP of Content at Content Paradise back when I had issues with the Koji Faceroom farce, I'd have been drawn and quartered insted of just tarred and feathered. It's not against the TOS to Parapharase what was said in the emails IE: "He told me....", but to post them as written breaks the TOS.

That being said, reporting them to PayPal and their ISP for operating under false identities (That Domain Registration is as phoney as they come) is most definately called for as well as the fact that they're selling items who's copyrights they have not ownership of should get them banned from PayPal at the least,.

Well, they did respond to me today in a less than friendly manner. They have removed the mesh and the link from their purchase page, but they will not apologize as they feel they have done nothing wrong. They say they will get me the conatct information on the person who posted the mesh on their site, but I don't expect much else from them at this point

Even if the benefit of the doubt could be extended to them, that they unwittingly accepted a model from somebody assuming that it was theirs to give, you'd hope that they would at least have the grace to acknowledge that they dropped the ball on this. The whole thing feels a little amateur, not helped by the appearance of their web site, although I'm no expert in these matters. As for the domain name business, that doesn't bode well at all. You wonder if Renderosity need to know about that in a more official capacity given that the Eclipse site sports a Renderosity link share logo, with its attendant usage restrictions and guidelines.

www.CambrianMoons.com

Realistically, I think that's all I can expect from Eclipse. They made it pretty clear that they don't have the time or desire to deal with me. I just won't be doing business with them in the future...

I can understand their reluctance since I came at them with both barrels, but I realy feel that they don't feel that they are at all responsible.

Also, I don't think Renderosity will sever ties with them on this one incident. If it happened several times I think they might, but 1 mesh is not that important to them.

Eromanric - I see your forum post there has dissapeared as well.

MarkHirst - I can understand putting rubbish on a domain reg form that can stop junk and sales calls. But for a business thats a no no. Any responsible e-business should happily give you a land based address if asked.

Plus a good hosting company should let you opt out from displaying personal contact info.
Most of the hosters I deal with do. goddady certainly does.

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Yes. They told me that they had deleted the threads, and theatened to sue me again if I posted any remarks there again.

I guess my days of posting free meshes are over. Every other time I release one someone does something like this. It's gotten old....

Quote - Yes. They told me that they had deleted the threads, and theatened to sue me again if I posted any remarks there again.

I guess my days of posting free meshes are over. Every other time I release one someone does something like this. It's gotten old....

That's the real killer and shame here Eromanric. I have enjoyed free meshes in the past. Years back (like 1996 or 97) I was a huge fan of (the now gone) SWMA.net. Really great people, great artists, wonderful animations. It was what got me into 3D. These generous people posting meshes of things I was interested in that I could take into (was it called Bcad?) and look at and ponder and learn from.

I always treated these meshes with reverence, these people who made these amazing recreations of spaceships and items from the Star Wars universe were like gods to me. 3D was rare to behold back then (at least for me).

I know many people are thankful everyday to those wonderful sculpters like yourself who create and share these fantastic things. You each push yourselves to higher levels and you kindly share your meshes afterwards, this is most admirable and it is a sad statement on human society that there is a slice who feel they are entitled to steal and claim credit for these things.

Thanks Thromm. I have to admit that I got into CG for some of the same reasons. I just hate getting my stuff ripped off, especially when I work so hard on it and post it for public use....

don't let them get you down, ero. those guys are the exception that proves the rule that we all appreciate the generosity of folks like you.

not that i'm after any freebies, i rarely use them lol. but it would be a shame to stop doing something you cleary enjoy because of a few bad apples.

billy

I'm with everyone here. Don't give in because of a few numptys like this guy.

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

I've got CDs full of freebies...never hurts to check it out.

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

the dorks that can't create rip off those that can.

let's see...how long in history has this been going on for? a couple thousand years.

Comitted to excellence through art.

Quote - Yes. They told me that they had deleted the threads, and theatened to sue me again if I posted any remarks there again.

I guess my days of posting free meshes are over. Every other time I release one someone does something like this. It's gotten old....

Well.... That kind of goes with the territory of posting free meshes. (also a business thing)
You did hear that old saying that "No good deed goes unpunished?...."

When I give away my work, I figure there will be people trying to take advantage of it... And there will be people whom are delighted with it, and there will be people who could care less one way or another. So, I take the good with the bad, I expect that there will be some degree of mishandling it.

It's sort of like lending money to friends, I never lend more then what I would be willing to give away or lose. For example, if I lent somene 100 bucks, and it would tick me off if they never paid it back, I don't lend it...

In a perfect world, yes, it shouldn't happen that way, and you should get an apology and restitution... But the world is very very veeery far from perfect.

Back to business thing, did you know that "Cost of loss prevention" (due to theft and bad business practices) is built into the price of all goods that we purchase? Food, clothes, furniture...
It comes down to feasibility.... Is it cheaper to just take the loss, or is it cheaper to pursue recovering the damages. Material ones. Emotional damages are unrecoverable, monetarily or by apologies or really any other ways... Even if you get money and apologies... They're not all they're cracked up to be. (BTDT)

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

*Quote - "Yes. They told me that they had deleted the threads, and theatened to sue me again if I posted any remarks there again.

I guess my days of posting free meshes are over. Every other time I release one someone does something like this. It's gotten old...."*

MrSparky and Sean, I think you both did a great job letting us know there is an unethical company selling stolen meshes that rip off their customers and may even get them into troubles in the future.

Posting and publishing the misconducts of dishonest business practices are, in many cases, necessary to warn innocent people not to fall victims of those companies and make those companies stop such business frauds.

There are many examples on the world wide Web where public speech forums exert power over fraudulent businesses. Just to show an example:

http://registerflies.com/welcome-to-the-registerfly-gripe-site-4.html

The above link is a Web site/forum devoted to disclose the fraudulent business practices of the once-popular domain registrar called RegisterFly. One of the company's victims decided to make them go public after being ignored many times, and dozens of victims gathered to the forum to tell their misfortunes with RegisterFly to the general public.

Anyway, Sean, you have all of us behind you (maybe except for one or two), and don't be discouraged by the nasty attitude of the es3d guy. What you did is righteous, and I'm thankful to you!

Ashley

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: SF Fan Artists: Don't get ripped off like I did.