This isn't so much a product-related post as it is a user preference post.

Nowadays, there are basically three types of clothing:

CONFORMING. Conforming clothing can have intricate geometry, and automatically poses with the figure. Probably the easiest to use, but it doesn't always pose the best. Especially things like capes or skirts. While body handles can help the situation, they aren't often easy to understand either, and don't always obtain realistic results.

DYNAMIC. Dynamic clothing doesn't pose automatically. You have to use the Cloth Room to get it to work, and some are afraid of the cloth room. The geometry can't be quite as complex as the conforming clothing either. BUT, the results are much more realistic in clothes that flow (like capes or skirts).

HYBRID. This is gaining in popularity, but not everyone is familiar with it. More intricate parts of the geometry are conforming and automatically move with the figure like regular conforming clothing. But the flowy parts (capes, skirts, etc) would involve going into the Cloth Room for simulations. The result is something that is the MOST realistic, but takes a bit more time to set up properly, especially for beginners.

Which types of clothing are you most apt to use? Just curious.

Right now, Deecey, I'm using either Conforming or Dynamic, depending on what I need.  I'm really interested in learning about the hybrids but you don't see any of them around.

Hugz from Phoenix, USA

Victoria

Remember, sometimes the dragon wins. Correction: MOST times.

I Love Dynamic clothing mainly because i am getting heavy into the animation side of poser then single frame projects after gaining understanding of the cloth room (Big ups  to PhilC for his tute, and the good Doctor) i don't fear all the controls in the room
so i would go for the Hybrid to get the best of both worlds. 
which, by the way is how i think male shirts should be made because a full conforming shirt the front seam down the front do not look real when the torso is bent.  the opening bends unnatural for cloth whereas dynamic will flow like cloth

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I lean toward hybrid clothing as well ... to me, it seems the best solution. If instructions were clear I think people could really get into using it! But I'd like more opinions too, because I'm just trying to think of what would suit the needs of most everyone.

I haven't tryed hybrid yet. My only problem with dynamic clothing is it takes forever to set it up and render it. It would seam that the hybrid would be a little faster to set up and render, (mostly render) because less things have to have be calulated by the computer. I have only seen about 1 or 2 of these Items for the hybrid for sale, or maybe there are more, I just bypass them till I get Poser 7 and see if that speeds up the process of rendering and the setup room to make it worth while.

I prefer dynamic because a dynamic garment will fit any character, and it looks more
natural in an animation.  But I can see where for a beginner  conforming clothing
would be easier to work with.  Haven't seen much in the way of hybrids, but
that sounds like an interesting option.  Still, the conforming part might tend to
limit it in the amount of characters it could be used with.

For tight-fitting clothing, Conforming.

For loose flowy things like skirts and capes, I prefer Dynamic.

I'd like to use more in the way of Hybrids, but there haven't been very many clothes designed for such, which kind of limits the possible use. The Morphing Fantasy Dresses can be turned into fairly decent hybrids, but there's the possibility of pokethrough and mesh separating at the boundary between conforming and dynamic.

________________________________________________________________

If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.

If Poser 7 Cloth Room did not have the problems that it currently does, I'd likely only use conforming clothing for shoes and snug fitting things like lingerie and bodysuits.  As it stands, Cloth Room is so frustrating for me that it makes me not want to use it at all.  I really hope it get some fixing with the next patch.  The specific bug that I'm having trouble with is where cloth simply will not collide against parts of a figure.  It's consistent and very frustrating, appears to be that if there are too many elements in the hierarchy tree then cloth won't collide against "some" things - but even in the same figure it's not easy to pin down.

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No easy anser to that question, I use whatever fits the bill for the image I'm doing, I don't have a preference per se` I just use each as the mood dictates!

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Personally I would love to see more information on the Hybrid types of clothing.

There are just aspects of most cloth items that you do not want to have moving around like the rest of the cloth. I know you can set various groups in the cloth room, but this has always been a buggy area for me.

So for me, Dynamic or Hybrids (if I can ever figure out how to make them work.)

Unfortunately 95% of the clothing types out there are conforming, not sure if that is just because that is how people are used to making clothing or what. But a lot of it only looks good in a single frame setup, and even then it sometimes take a lot of work to cover up poke through.

Anyway... Just my 2 Cents into the mix.

Thanks
V

I think I'd still go with conforming, followed by hybrid then dynamic for most clothing.

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Indoda

are you going to have a tutorial about this?

i would say a hybrid. i personally use conforming most but there are many times when i want to have a seperate part that is dynamic. body handles are too much trouble, both to make and to use. seems there should be an easier way.

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I'm thinking a tutorial would be a great idea, since I have a feeling this is the way to approach clothing that would react most realistically!

OK, it's on the agenda. 8-D

Unfortunately 95% of the clothing types out there are conforming, not sure if that is just because that is how people are used to making clothing or what. But a lot of it only looks good in a single frame setup, and even then it sometimes take a lot of work to cover up poke through.<<

Another reason might be that a lot of people are afraid of the cloth room. So part of the solution might entail devising a method that would make hybrid clothing easier to use.

Not being a Python wizard, I'm not sure if it's feasible. But I wonder if there might be a way to create some sort of "Wizard-like" thing that would allow a user to specify which parts of a piece of clothing are to be dynamic, and to set up the simulations for those parts without accessing the cloth room. Then, you can use the "Animation > Recalculate Dynamics > All Cloth" command to perform all the calculations at once.

Any thoughts from the Python gurus?

personally, i use/create conforming because it's dynamically quicker. what i mean by that is once i put it on my character i can quickly pose them around and see instantly what's going on, not concerned about poke throughs yet as i'm just establishing a pose. so no renderings just getting camera angles and poses first.

then once i have something that looks decent then i start manipulating the clothing and/or turning off visable body parts.
i honestly don't know crap about the cloth room and that's why i don't use it. lol! just haven't gone in there and tried to learn it yet. it was enough learning cr2's and joint editor stuff, besides all of the other stuff (materials, maps, etc.)

your tutorial would be an awesome idea.
one of the other areas that is limiting to me with conforming is if you have an item that is conforming to multiple body parts (chest, abdomen) you can't put a decent texture on your clothing as it can really smear/distort out when you pose the figure sometimes. chainmail would be the obvious example here.

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Its not something to be scared of.

Here is an on screen flash video tutorial showing how to use the Cloth moor.
http://www.philc.net/CC_sampleVideo.htm

Hopefull that will dispel a lot of the mystery.

If you then navigate back to the home page then the tutorial link you'll find some more Cloth Room tutorials.

Cloth Room presets here:-
http://www.philc.net/ClothRoomPresets.htm

Quote - Its not something to be scared of.

 

it bit me once.
mean nasty rooms. :biggrin:

Comitted to excellence through art.

Its not something to be scared of.>>

Ah, just the Python Guru I was thinking of! ;-)

there is so much more that can be done with hybrids.

the main drawback of conforming is that you can either have a 50 meg piece of clothing with tonnes of preset morph poses, but then its inevitably still not going to look as good as dynamic, and wont be suited for any poses that havent been accounted for in the built-in morphs.

the problem with pure dynamic is that most of it that isnt skintight, IMO, looks nowhere near as realistic as the characters we use it on. even if there are rudimentary seams, cuffs, etc it still comes nowhere near properly modeled conforming clothing. it also brings its own issues with pokethrough, jaggies, etc... in order to have a piece of dynamic clothing that folds and wrinkles well youre going to need a mesh far more dense and less optimized than the average conforming clothing item -- yet still with far less detail.

hybrids bring the best of both worlds together... you can conform the tight-fitting parts and those that are better suited to conforming, and then have loose flowing or draping parts that are dynamic and will animate better, look better, drape better and be suited for almost any pose.

i think that until now many people avoided dynamic clothing because it seemed like a hassle, and also not all of the dynamic clothing on the market is very appealing... but now that everyone should have at least poser 5 (come on, it was free... there is no excuse anymore) and dynamic capability more merchants will be using it and more customers will be open to it.

Agreed, Gabe, on all counts!!! Those are precisely the reasons that I am leaning toward going this route in my products as well. The possibilities of emulating real-world clothing are much greater with hybrid clothing.

For it to catch on, we have to educate the community in how it works. That will have to be a community effort!  I'm all for setting up some tutorials that will combine input from all those who care to give their two cents.

I've been stuck using conforming because I really don't what to do with dynamic when you want to change the pose with the same cloth. I do story boards, I guess you could classify this as frames if I were animating, and I truly do not know what to do when you want to change a figure's pose while using dynamic clothing. Is it as simple as re-calculating the garment?

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That should be all it takes! Once you have the simulations set up, you should only have to recalculate the dynamics when the pose changes.

Ah I see not so difficult as one thought. Thanks!!

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Perhaps along with just education, a small freebie to go along with it so people will get hands on learning and be able to decide for themselves if it's for them :)

I'm definately a hands on person and although I don't use P6 that much, strangely, the one thing that I do like to use in it is the cloth room.

With proper directions for the product that you are using, it really is quite easy.

True, it can take time, but the end results are worth it.

And this is from someone that doesn't use P6 much and hasn't been able to get P7 yet :) So there ya go :)

I think that a hybrid would be freakin' awesome myself :)

Dee, I promise, at some point I will get your book  :)  Just gotta figure out the money situation :)

A very personal opinion...

I LOVE the Cloth Room! Mainly 'cos I can't do all the rigging/boning/fall-off-zones etc required for conforming..

The pic is of an early, test pair of Harem pants that I modeled for Posette (currently being made into a full-set freebie, but alas at another site unless I can find someone here who can help me host it for 'rosity).

I defy ANYONE to get that sort of flow into any conforming clothing as a product:-))

More seriously...

Yes, the best way to go (where required) might be Hybrid.
Since I don't have the skills to do conforming, I'm left with Dynamic.
But Hybrid still requires you to use the Cloth Room (for the dynamic parts) and so you still have to go through the animation simulation, with all the resulting time, and maybe just constraing the "close-fitting" parts might work? Never tried that - I'm still new at this game (as far as products are concerned).

Also, (was it mentioned in an earlier post?), dynamic clothing can, within reson, be fitted to almost any character, with a bit of time and effort. The same cannot be said for Conforming clothing, notwithstanding Wardrobe Wizard et al.

Errm.. Maybe I've outstayed my welcome, so..

Cheers,
Diolma

I'll often make a part of my conforming clothes dynamic like a sleave or something just to add realism to the render. Love esther

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I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

Hybrid is my choice, its easier to use than dynamic but lets you use a more complex model AND get the same results as Dynamic, i'll post 2 examples the evening dress on V4 will work great as a dynamic dress But her breasts keep falling out, so then you need to start constraining areas which can lead to wierd results in those areas.......on the summer dress it has buttons and overlapping, poser cloth room handles overlapping badly and a rigid decorated group slows the simulation and these are both areas that really can be handled as a conforming figure.

I mean easier because with both these dresses you can just select hip, enter the cloth room and run a standard simulation, no need to constrain anything, infact the only choice that needs to be made is what parts to collide the skirt against, if you have poser 7 you don't even need to worry about the fold settings as the smooth tool will fix any errors in seconds, so no need to run a second simulation.......We have been putting up hybrids for some time, i'd be happy to put one up for folks to try if anyone who hasn't tried one wants a go.......Steve

> Quote - Perhaps along with just education, a small freebie to go along with it so people will get hands on learning and be able to decide for themselves if it's for them :)

But we have done that already!
The runtime includes a ReadMe with instructions on how to use the dress, and suggested render settings.  It's not hybrid, it's fully dynamic, but it should work go give people an introduction.

The link will download the file directly; I should be setting up on the website soon, as well as submitting it to freestuff here.

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And oh, just for the record, I'm in favour of hybrid, for the reasons already mentioned.

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I'm getting more into using dynamic clothing. The realism just can't be beaten. I've also found that some conforming clothes convert quite well by exporting and reimporting them and running through the cloth room. In my pic I used the G2 Male Fashion Pants, magnet morphed to fit my Apollo character as closely as I could. Doesn't work with every set of clothes (many fall apart during the sims) - maybe this set had the folds added in the clothroom anyway.

It's just more time consuming really - but worth the results.

 

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wow, excellant character and render/cloth simulation.

now stop spying!
goes and closes curtains

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I don't believe it! That has to be a real person? Is that really apollo? My goodness, you are amazing. That pic is just totally awsome. Love esther

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I aim to update it about once a month.  Oh, and it's free!

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2680487

About the lack of modelled seams and other goodies: most dynamic clothes don't have them, agreed.

But that doesn't have to be. I'm nowhere as accomplished a modeler as Blackhearted, but the blouse I'm working on is full dynamic AND has modeled seams and hems. See the attached link (you might have to scroll down a bit for the more recent screenshots).

Nudity flag set since the attached thread contains nudity.

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This is the first I've heard about Hybrids, and I for one am excited!

I may only be a Poser 'NOOB' but one of the first things I attempted in Poser 6 was a cloth room simulation...and I've never looked back. The first half hour I was going around in circles, producing nothing. Then it just clicked! I urge everyone to give it a shot.

And like carodan, I've found a great many conforming clothing pieces can be converted into dynamic clothing. With a little tweaking and some common sense, you can get excellent results. A somewhat blurry example of this can be found in my gallery (Ambush). These were just the standard Baggy Jeans for James confirming clothing.

Bring on the hybrids I say! The potential detail of conforming married with the realism of dynamic. Who could resist?

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

to me, the obvious answer is hybrid.  it's always better to make the solution fit the situation rather than one blanket solution.  that said, i love that i don't even have to think about fitting fully dynamic clothes.  one of my issues with fitting clothes, including using built in morphs, is that they don't really work, usually.  that is, they follow the figures morph precisely, rather than just fitting differently.  it sounds subtle, but it's the reason a lot of renders look ridiculous: the artist dialed up the figure's muscles, applied the built in morphs, and what you have is clothing that bulges oddly and has a very action figure flow.  dynamic clothes handle that better, in general.  that said, i still mostly use conforming clothes, because that's mostly what's out there in the types of clothing i like.  people mostly don't put lots of detail into dynamic clothes, even though it seems possible.

deecey- i have to say this.  a hybrid pantsuit or realistic jeans would be absolutely invaluable.  every single render i've done with pants makes my boyfriend grimace because of how unrealistically they balloon around the shin and ankle.  even after postworking away the ballooning, it doesn't pass the grimace test, because it still looks immobile.  he's taken to saying, "i just don't think poser can do pants right."   if you look closely at adzan's avatar at daz, he's got a figure sitting where the pants fold correctly. 

conversely, i don't know of a dynamic pair of jeans with as much detail as the conforming ones i have (young soul: vanilla, for one).  maybe a hybrid pair is the answer.

svdl .... GREAT job on that set!! I assume some of it was done by welding vertices, and some by using hard and soft decorated groups? FANTASTIC, and I also love the materials!

estherau ... carodan's gallery is filled with excellent examples of Apollo and V4 that have the most amazing realism. He is doing some fantastic stuff lately!

cobaltdream ... yup, pants are tough, as are belled medieval type sleeves. Hybrids are the way to go!

I'm working on a set for Sydney that is hybrid. IMO hybrid is the way to go for dress period.

I modeled them to be hybrid from the start. The top is conforming and from the hip down is dynamic. I need to put the hem on the dress, but other than that it is done. I don't think I'll release another strictly conforming dress or long sleeved shirt again.

One thing to mention too.... The groups used by the cloth room are retained in the cr2 when you save it to the library, so it's really easy to run a sim on them... just load, conform and create your sim in the cloth room. The groups are already set up, so all you have to done it clothify the hip and set the collide against figure or body parts and calculate the sim. On my older machine it takes about 2 minutes to do a 30 frame sim. On the new one it takes about 30 seconds

Ed

i have to agree.  it's a crap shoot and occasional p.i.t.a to clothify an item that hasn't been designed to be dynamic.  that's where i've had things take forever or behave problematically.  but since i'm going against the instructed use, i'm more surprised when it goes well than otherwise.  most clothes i've had that were designed to be dynamic has worked beautifully, because all the settings were already in place.

these are the issues i've run into with making conforming clothes dynamic, so i'm guessing they sort of hold for what i'd like in dynamic products:

full skirts or other such items flared into a circle at default.  to get both xena's hope gear and lady littlefox's oriental fantasy to behave drape properly in my chosen poses, had to use 4 magnets to flare out the skirts.  on the oriental fantasy outfit i had to flare and raise the sleeves.    basically, where draped items fall from matters a great deal, and for maximum flexibility, it seems  to me in my very limited experience, that it's works better for draped items to fall into the pose rather than start from a more fitted pose.

if there are important features, please make a specific material for them.  that way they can be constrained more, and kept from distorting.  frankly, this would be helpful in general.  i find it equally frustrating to find that a modeled detail has no separate material for me to customize (m3 marauders, a great set, disappointed me in this one respect).  even though hope gear's stripes weren't modeled, they're highly integral to the look of the set.  in this case, i ought to learn to make them a separate material and group.   that is to say, if i want it to work differently, i should change it myself, since it was never meant to be dynamic.  but it would be great if fine details like trim could be handled separately in general. 

and please couple it with lots of detail.  svdl's set is a  perfect example.  the lack of detail coupled with my penchant for action gear has kept me from buying most dynamic sets.  though the stiffness of some sets, especially fantasy ones, has kept me from doing more than trying out several conforming sets.  

svdl - those look like extremely interesting items you're working on (twidling fingers in eager anticipation).
The Hybrid examples I've seen so far look like the way to go for many items. The best of both - sounds good to me. I don't know the technicalities of modelling such items, but having details that remain intact during a sim would be very cool.
Someone mentioned earlier about being able to see the clothing while you're posing the figure (an obvious advantage of conforming items) - I agree that this helps a great deal with frame composition, and working with dynamic clothing can sometimes be a lengthy distraction. Hopefully running simulations will get quicker.
EdW - 30 seconds to run a cloth sim! I've got to get me a hardware upgrade!

Thanks for the comments on the Apollo and V4 renders BTW. That P7 morph brush is quite a liberating tool for making head morphs.

 

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I found this very interesting. So I went to testing myself. Excuse the outfit I just threw it together for testing. The result wasn't that bad. Something worth looking further into.

All my poser figures are naked.  Not  because I like the porn, because I can't figure out how to get any of the damn clothing to work no matter how much I spend on it : /.

This my friend I believe is the true reason for all the poser porn.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

HollywoodBest, are you trying to say, "Oh! This ole thing, Oh I just threw it on." 
Then you show off with your athletic ability to bend where no one has bent before.

I really wouldn't say that I have bent where noone has bent before. There use to be a guy on Renderosity that use to do alot of testing with dynamic clothes and he was talking about hybrids at one time. But I haven't seen him since. But the outfit was something quick. Cause evident faults is when she bend her butt crack is out. That wasn't intentional. So it still isn't bending natural. Not to  say that it doesn't happen in real life, seen many girls bend over and instead of their butt crack you see their red satin thongs. But I haven't done anything GREAT, I took what they said to do and did it. To see how it would work being that I don't make dynamic clothes. But there is more work that could be done to make it better. And most of the people are taking conformed clothes to make them dynamic. That outfit was built to be a hybrid so I wouldn't have as much headaches.

HollywoodBest,     Ah! you cracked me up laughting. 

*"Not to say that it doesn't happen in real life, seen many girls bend over and instead of their butt crack you see their red satin thongs."

*I remember the first mini skirt I saw which was on a model, I was hoping for a breaze! 
 Well, smack my face! Shame on me for being a guy!  

Anyway, I do animations, and something I'm soncerned with is, if I have two people carring on a conversation. "A lot of the time I can zero in on their face, and there's no problem with what kind of clothing they are wearing."  But there are times when, each person talks back and forth and they are both in the frame, I like to do that to break up the manonty, (hey, I'm an animator, not a english major.) Poser won't let you carry over the animated face poses using Mimic, in the animated clip. It starts from frame one, on.

With conforming clothing I can save that last frame of the two charactures slide them to framd 1, and start the conversation from frame 1, and contenue that conversation, and it is seamless.  

I've tried Dynamic Clothing, but with Dynamic clothing, from what I understand, you have to animate so the clothing catches up to the pose. My concern is, in doing so, when both people are in view. i doubt that the clothes will line up correctly in doing my animation the way it needs to be set up fairly often. I love dynamic clothing, the flow. but when the clothes don't line up in an anmation, then I can't use them.

Because of it. most of my girls have to wear short dress's. or they don't have that natural flow of a long dress.

Attached Link: Hybrid Test

I understand that. So this topic has interested me so much as to find a bridge to achieve that. I just don't want my addiction to learning something new consume me. Cause right now I am testing out a glove where a certain part is conformed to control it while the other is clothed. Now like I said I am not a veteran dynamic user so I will possible make mistakes. But this is what I have so far with the hybrid testing. Now this is effortless after I set up how I wanted to function. I just need to learn how to save the information to the library I don't know if it does the same like conforming clothes haven't really attempted yet.

Here you can see it in motion with the included link. The only fault is in the wrist area being that I missed some of the vertices in that area. But not that bad.

wow, that sleeve looks nice. 

i have to say, one of the huge criticisms i hear from over my shoulder (boyfriend and i share the computer room, though not computers) is clothes that look inflated.  hybrids seem to be a way to have jackets with sharp cornered shoulders, but sleeves that actually obey the laws of gravity.  pants that have pockets, and zippers that open, and belt loops but don't balloon around the ankles and calves when the figure is sitting or lying down.

i really hope merchants start selling hybrid clothes.

There is one caveat about hybrid clothing that should probably be mentioned. Let's say you are creating a hybrid clothing set for a figure that has body morphs. You build the body morphs into the clothing so that you can fit the conforming parts to the figure, and still use the dynamic parts correctly. And in most cases, you should also follow through with adding the morphs to the dynamic portions as well, so that the clothing fits as it should.

You have to dial the morphs in before you clothify the clothing. There is something about the clothify process that, once applied, causes morphs on the dynamic portion not to work. I'm not sure if there is any way around that, just thought I would throw it out there.

actually, i find quite the opposite. most fit morphs have the clothes completely inaccurately but precisely follow the body. most muscularity morphs in jackets look frankly ridiculous.  my experience with dynamics is that they drape and stretch properly.

That's true, but you would still have to add the morphs to the conforming parts in the hybrid clothing, which you won't be running through the cloth simulator. In that case, those morphs have to be dialed in before you run the simulation on the dynamic part.

actually, i don't think i've had that problem either, having made some conforming pieces dynamic.oh, wait, i know it hasn't worked that way for me.  in making some conforming items dynamic, i've added morphs so they would drape better. i had no problem dialing these morphs after generating the simulation.

Hmmm interesting, I'll have to test this a bit more to determine exactly where the problem occurs.

Wow!  Now I'm going to have a clothing file for each Conforming, Dynamic, and HiBreed piece of clothing. Once I finish up on the last parts of my movie, I'm going to have to do some serious messing with Dynamic, and HiBreed clothing. It is such a big improvement over Conforming. I just hope I can find a workaround for my movies So I can get the clothing to lineup correctly.

No Questiong that Dynamic is the way to go for small animations. I know most people use Dynamic clothing as Art and not animation. and it looks great. Once I get into it, I might start experimenting in making my own. So little time an so much to do!

Nice look there HollywoodBest. Unfortunatly I don't have any answers for you, as I am just starting to mess around with Dynamic clothing. I've been working on a movie for the last 6 months  with about a week to go to finish, and I couldn't change the charactures clothing at this point. Maybe the next movie.

The morph problem: actually, if you set morphs in a dynamic part before starting the calculation, it will appear to be applied twice when the calculation finishes.
It's the same effect as when you spawn a new morph target from a combination of existing morphs: if you dial the new morph to 1, the other morph settings are added. In this regard, the generated Dynamics "morph" behaves exactly like an ordinary morph.

So if you use morph settings in a dynamic part, be sure to set them to the correct value at a frame before the calculation starts (usually frame 1), and set them to zero on a later frame (doesn't really matter what frame, as long as it is an earlier frame than the final simulation frame number).

Slowhands: if you're into animation, check out dynamic hair (strand based hair) too. Pick up the free hair proxies by kirwyn to make the calculation times bearable.
Animating the flow of transmapped hair, either prop based or conforming, is extremely time consuming and the results are usually not really good. Strand based hair is fantastic for animations.

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Svdl: I'll give it a try. I will be getting Poser 7 in a day or two. Hope that speeds up my render times. I also updated with a new computer, Seams like every two years or less.

@cobaltdream-
Thx, took me a moment to get it to act like that but still haven 't got the result that I am going for. cause I want it a bit more flowing.

Poser 7 is okay but I can't wait for them to do some updates. The cloth room runs way better but they have little things that they have to tighten up. And it can be frustrating at times being that I don't have a slow computer and it crashes at times. But the little problems they do have won't compare to the many problems Vista has. :P  But I don't think Poser 7 and Vista was really playing together quite friendly cause I ran into numerous times that it collapse. Back on my XP harddrive just sometime the delete button stops functioning in Poser is the major problem I have.

Takes nothing to convert conforming cloths to dynamic if there modeled correctly.

Takes alot to make dynamic cloths conforming with morphs and all.

 

Why not just make conforming cloths that you can make dynamic if you want ?

Just model conforming cloths so thay will change over to dynamic if the buyer wants ?

Oh ya learning materials for anything in Poser is not easy to find free.

People our not going to use dynamic hair or cloth until it's explained to them easy and fast

 

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@RorrKonn

That is absolutely true. A lot of artist that is use to conforming clothes will have to be made comfortable to venture into other possibilities. And materials are very limited on teaching features in Poser for free. The manual that comes with Poser is vague itself.

Definately Hybrid for me, if it weren't for one problem - IS THERE A WAY TO FIX ALL THE FREAKIN CLOTHES FALLING APART? Arrrgg. Also, I have found that if I just select the hip (using a dress) it's a lot of hassle - having to constrain the top of it, Skirt not simulating right... if it drapes/moves at all. Maybe that was just one item, but anyway...

Yeah there should be a way that everything is automatically set up for the customers so all the customer would have to do is conform and then hit simulate. Not have to worry about how it drapes or locking certain areas. The easier it for someone to use the more will they would be to use it. I will have to check that out.

RorrKonn - that hasn't been my experience at all.  i have stuff that doesn't convert to hybrid well simply because i've yet to see a simple and obvious way to combine groups.  if i wanted to make the whole thing a prop, (mostly) no problem.  but i haven't found a way within poser, for instance, to convert pants to have conforming hips and buttocks but dynamic legs made out the shins and thighs. i tried for a while with a certain set of clothes.  every single option i tried allowed me to subdivide groups but not combine it with others.  and when i left each part separate and made them dynamic, they did bizarre and unusable things.  it's probably possible, but not so simple that i've figured it out, and i don't think i'm average in terms of willingness to muck with stuff.

conversely, philc has made a tool to make conforming clothes out of an obj file.  and in fact, here's a one page tutorial showing how to do it by hand.

explained easy and fast?  all the tutorials i've found have been both.  compared to my efforts to convert conforming pants to hybrid, which failed after days, my efforts using my first dynamic clothes were painless.  as in, about 10 -15 minutes, with trial and error of different settings.

but that's the important part.  if clothes are quality made hybrids or dynamics to begin with, they're pretty easy to use.  it's been hours of work and sometimes futile converting stuff.  from making custom morphs so that stuff is pulled up in order to fall properly (i.e., in many poses, loose  skirts should come down from a circle), to carefully choosing settings in order to make it behave properly.  it would be a lot easier if clothes were made with the right morphs, the right dynamic, conforming, soft and hard decorated groups, and the right settings to begin with.  asking customers to do all that themselves is basically not making it dynamic.

frankly, i don't think it's the info.  i've been around a while, and i've seen multiple threads, multiple tutorials, multiple very clear instructions detailing all sorts of aspects of how to use dynamic clothes. i think it's three things: the quality of most dynamic clothes on the market, the lack of communal effort put into making dynamic cloth easy to use, and the complaints most people have about dynamic clothes in general. 

in the first, i think so many dynamic clothes are made with no seams, edges or other finishing touches.  they end up looking like paper thin clothes draped over the figure.  so they don't look as good.  hybrids and dynamics need to have the same level of quality as conforming to gain people's interest.  in the second, i only know of a few people who have made presets for different cloth settings.  if the community as a whole spent as long on cloth room settings as was spent on jcm tricks and killing poke-through for conforming clothes, it would be worlds easier for the average poser user to use dynamic cloth.  also, as i mentioned, i find that with dynamic clothes you really have to consider the starting pose.  results will be totally different with different starting positions.  i think dynamic and hybrid clothing would be much easier to use if they came with morphs to work with that.  there's lots of details and concerns that should be addressed.  dynamic clothing shouldn't be treated like less complex conforming clothing, because it isn't.  and the less that difference is handled by the creator, the more that difference has to be handled by the user. 
 
the third issue stems from the other two.  because users have to handle these issues, or just have things not work, many who try to use dynamic clothes end up having huge problems and giving up.  and posting complaints that make it sound terribly difficult and arcane.  personally, i've had issues in the cloth room and ones that i shouldn't have had if poser's cloth room were better.  but the difference between quality dynamic clothes, clothes that were kind of thrown together (a couple of freebies, so no complaints), and converted clothes has been consistently huge.   and hasn't just been a matter of the mesh.   dynamic or hybrid clothing should be tested just as rigorously, come with just as many features, and be made with just as much care as if conforming clothing.

people will never use dynamic or hybrid clothes if they're made as an afterthought, and more effort is put into conforming versions.

Personally, as I've said elswhere, I don;t like converted clothing! Strange things cna happen with it since the "child" groups still affect the "parent" groups, so if a shin is made dynamic it can have odd effects on the thigh group, hip groups can affect abdomen groups etc. So hybrid cltohing I design have a "ghost" group of one or 2 rows of verts seperating the dyanamic groups from the confoming groups. I also name my dynamic groups differently than the groups in the main figure, to avoid conflicts.

Hybrids that break up happen as a general rule if there are no matching bones in the skeleton. Even specific dynamic groups have to have a coresponding bone in the skeleton of the conformer. Also check the group elding commands to be sure your dynamic groups are welded to the correct conforming group. 

I agree with Cobaltdream, thought has to be put into the construction of the hybrid, makeing it as an after thought or conversion MIGHT give you decent results, or it might not. Making the clothing with Hybrid Dynamics as part of the design strongly reduces the potential problems.

I also wish E-Frontier would provide a file structure similar to the Material files in the Material Room where the setting could be save and loaded for the Cloth Room. This would go a long way to making the Cloth Room user friendly. Maybe some type of Mat (Dyn ?) Pose can be developed... I've just started look into what areas of the CR2 control the dynamics to see if this is a possibility but I'm not the most knowledgable person when it comes to CR2 hacks...

Still Hybrid Clothing can produce some really nice pictures and this is an area of Poser that deserves serious attention!

have fun,
mike

@cobaltdream

I absolutely agree with you. The more user-friendly it is made the more willing people will be to use it. Like a video game I never read the manuals that come with them I expect that the game control to be set up good enough that I can sit down and figure it out in a few moments. People even find it acceptable to have in-game tutorials instead of sitting with a book in their hands reading how to play. The in-game tutorial involves them more than a book. So I am sure that with dynamic clothes and hybrids people will have the expectation that there should be no hard work on their part.

trav - well, i do know that material files can be used to set cloth room settings.  actually, that might be better.  because then could have a material that just set silk as silk and denim as denim, with the correct material and cloth settings  at once.  instead of trying to do the two separately.

edited to add: i don't think cloth settings are quite universal, though, so i'd say it would be best if each piece of clothing had its own specific settings.

I have some conforming close.

The Topology is not always correct.

 

Dynamics has limits on what thay will do.

No you are not going to get dynamics with any and all the detail you can get out of conforming.

 

Hybrids would half to follow all the rules to work correctly.

And you will half to accept the limits it will still have.

 

Do not think ya morphs would stay after ya made a conforming dynamic.

 

I'm learning Poser 5.

I swear the person that wrote the Lightwave manual wrote the Poser manual.

INJ's nothing about them in the manual.

There are a few Tutorials out there.

With out this form I would still be rendering a cube.

zBrush, C4D went to the extreme with learning materials.

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

I use comforming clothes, simply because I can't figure out the friggin' cloth room! :cursing:  Try as I might, even with a tutorial sitting right next to me, I can't understand how to do it, or with me and learning something...why it does what it does.

I have 2 dresses I'm dying to learn how to use, the Abyssal Queen and the Starlight dress.  They are beautiful gowns, but, they just don't won't play nice with me and I can't understand why. (and yes, I know, they are probably the easiest of the dynamic clothes to use! haha)

I have a feeling when I finally figure out the cloth room, I'll go into debt getting dymanic clothing for my little peeps.

RorrKonn  - that's not true.  i already own a couple dynamic clothing sets with good detail, some are in development, and some have been converted by others.

great examples:
http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/ophoto/index.php?photoid=12674
http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/ophoto/index.php?photoid=12498

and i think it's ridiculous to be talking about the limits to dynamic clothes at this point.  conforming clothes work well after years of a huge number of people striving, innovating and sharing information about grouping, jcm, erc, and movement magnets.  whole forums dedicated to the topic of creating conforming clothes.   and there are, what 5 or 6 people consistently working with dynamic clothes?  we just discovered hybrids, and very little has been done with them.  if dynamic clothes were figure creation, we'd be on Posette and just discussing the possibility of Eve.  if people had had the same "can't do" attitude about conforming clothes, we'd still be using Posette's wardrobe and saying it can't get any better.

as for poser 5, i believe it came out before v3 with her hundreds of injection poses.  i'm not certain, but i believe they're a hack.  iirc, you need to make them by hand or using injection pose builder.

StevieG1965-  what problems do you have with the Starlight dress?  i don't have poser here, but i believe this is what worked for me:

1. Load the figure and zero her
2. Load the dress.
3. Add a keyframe at 30; pose and morph the figure.
4. Go to the Cloth Room, clothify the dress.  Set drape frames to 10.
5. Set it to collide with the figure without head, hands or feet.
6. Run simulation.

RDNA Starlight dress tutorial

cobaltdream: I agree. Very few content developers work on dynamic cloth, there is still a LOT to learn. 
The more I think about it, the more I believe that hybrids are the way to go. Actually, hybrids with helper bones, like my hybrid garter under development. The helper bone system has been developed for conforming clothes, years ago, and it has helped to partly overcome the conformer limitations, especially when it comes to skirts, dresses, and capes. 
I think hybrids with helper bones will enable the cloth developer to have the same level of detail as we've come to expect from conforming clothes, with the added versatility and natural flow of dynamics. The best of both worlds.

So, unlike what RorKonn states, I believe that a well developed hybrid will not suffer from the limitations of both conforming and dynamic clothes. On the contrary, I believe that it will be possible to use the strong points of the conforming parts to overcome the limits of dynamic, and the other way around. The best of both worlds.

Still, there's a lot of research to do. I wonder how "state of the art" Poser clothes will look, a year or two from now...

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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Humm, while I'm thinking about it one other area of parallel developement to look into with Hybrid/Dynamic clothing is Displacement mapping. I remember a while back some one using displacement mapping to create really fabulous detail in a rather plan mesh figure. This might be another route to adding some really complex details in the Dynamic clothing and Dynamic groups of Hybrid.

Also, I generally try to add some wrinkles and folds to add some realism to clothing, but the idea of making a plain flat model and adding several displacement maps to provide the user with a CHOICE of wrinkle/fold patterns is something I've been thinking about, lately. Oh, so many avenues to expore and so little time!

have fun 
mike

Displacement mapping is certainly another of those underused avenues. I've seen some really stunning work using displacement by stonemason, here in the forums, a year back or so.
I wish I had the time to learn more about UVmapping and texturing,... my mind's eyes sees hybrid clothes with the main features modeled into the mesh, and the fine detail provided by displacement maps, specular maps and more... damn, so much to learn, so little time...

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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It defiantly would be something interesting to learn.

Yup, good textures with the addition of transparency, displacement, and specular maps can make all the difference in models.

Textures by Arien, on a VERY plain clothing model. In particular, the effect on the "wires" in the legs is stunning.

displacement is definitely a wonderful source of variable detail.  stonemason has some wonderful freebies that show off the power of displacement, as well as some products that do even more. and displacement is something that can benefit any type of figure or prop.  the thing to keep in mind with dynamic clothes is how much you allow them to stretch.  so if you decide, for example, to do all you seams in displacement rather than modeled, you might find that they do odd things in certain situations. 

Wow that is really nice.

Cobal

Really have no idea why you took what I said and totally re wrote it to trash.

What is not true or ridicules ?

Conforming and Dynamic cloths both have limits,that is not my ridiculous opinion it is a fact.

Do not write imaginary sentences for me."can not do" I never said.

 

I want the best cloths possible,but I understand there limits that I half to deal with.

In any 3D App.

 

Just for a fast example,not the best example I no.

Tales of Adventure - Crystal Mage form DAZ

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/itemdetails/-/?item=3020

The blouse has jewelry and stuff on it.

Not so sure ya could cloth the blouse.or if ya could it would do well as dynamic.

Not so sure it was made to be dynamic

 

I am saying model cloths that can be conforming and dynamic.

 

Ya brown suit was modeled to start with to be dynamic,yes ?

Would be easy enough to make conforming,Yes ?

 

Ya see what I am saying,now ?

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

The Crystal Mage outfit - the corset is figure-hugging, and would be made of fairly stiff material in - ahem - "real life". Conformers work best in such a case, though fully constrained dynamic cloth would also work - with the advantage that you wouldn't have to set oodles of morphs (some of which might not be present) to fit a morphed Aiko..
The shoulder pads are designed to be armor. Stiff material. Conformers work best in such a case, dynamic wouldn't be any advantage.

RorKonn: you're talking about limits. I'd rather talk about possibilities.
Rigid or semi-rigid clothes profit most from the properties of conforming clothes, so they should be made as conformers. 
Loose, flowing clothes profit most from the properties of dynamic cloth, so they should be made as dynamic.
Clothing that has both (semi)rigid and loose flowing parts, such as a long dress with a tight bodice should be made as a hybrid.
As for detailing, judicious use of conforming parts, rigid and soft decorated groups, and displacement maps, in combination with well thought out modeling will go a VERY long way. 

We don't know the limits of dynamic cloth yet. As cobaltdream said, conforming cloth has been researched and expanded upon for many years, and some very clever tricks have been devised that have made conforming clothes better and easier to use. Many of those tricks were never envisioned by Metacreations/Curious Labs/e-frontier.
The same will happen with dynamic cloth and hybrids. It just will take time and effort.

Don't think in terms of limits. Think in terms of possibilities.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

Don't think in terms of limits. Think in terms of possibilities.

Amen!!!!

I'm not thinking limits, I'm thinking of making it correctly.
Thinking realistically.

 

Ah ok in most main 3D apps thay go the rules is model with only quads don't use tri's.

Thay say that cause most 3D app's when thay subdivide a Tri turns it to a quad then it pinches.

XSI,LW our the only 2 app's that I know of that will subdivide a Tri and leave it a tri.

Do not know what all the 3D app's will do.

 

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_Sub_D_Quads.htm

 

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_T_Mix_Sub-D_Tri-Quad.htm

 

Since TS,C4D subdivide system is limited to quads if your going to model a face.

Model it out of quads not tri's.

If you model it out of tri's it will look bad no one would want it.

 

If you going to make cloths regardless if there conforming,dynamic,hybrids make them correctly or no one will want them.

 

I pushed alot of app's to there limits that is the only way your no what thay will do.

I am just learning Poser but I will keep at it till I push it to it's limits.

There is no point in making cloths that do not work.

I am all for pushing it as far as we can thou.

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

To say it has limits is to say man will never land on the moon. Everything is possible. All it is, is finding a new direction. That comes with hard work and new Ideas. I started with poser 4, and was happy to animate with it, but quickly saw a lot of limitations with the charactures clothing and renders. It was great for it's time.

Now look at what we are talking about. Displacement maps, clothes that flow. Hair that Flows. Special effects with bombs bursting in the air. Rain comming down. All these things I can do now, and it can be done because a number of people dove into the unknown and said. I'll find away. We have only just begun. 

In three years "if the rest of the world holds together," You will see amazing things with clothes, renders, and animations. At that time then Then tell me I don't know what I'm talking about. When I first saw the Shrek animation, I was blown away. By the second Shrek movie, I saw some of the freatures in the movie that was filtering into Poser. No where that top knotch quality, but in the same direction.

In three years "if the rest of the world holds together,"

And that can happen too, if we really believe it can.  ;-)

Slow

"quote"To say it has limits is to say man will never land on the moon"

Man your reaching with that sentence.

 

Have no idea where this obsession of putting words in my mouth came from.

It's unprofessional I do not deal with unprofessionals.

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

RorrKonn - no, i responded to exactly what you've said.  you're actually now saying the opposite with

Quote - Ya brown suit was modeled to start with to be dynamic,yes ?  Would be easy enough to make conforming,Yes ?

i believe carodan converted that outfit, but that's beside the point.  in your previous post you said,

Quote -
Takes nothing to convert conforming cloths to dynamic if there modeled correctly.
Takes alot to make dynamic cloths conforming with morphs and all.

Why not just make conforming cloths that you can make dynamic if you want ?

Just model conforming cloths so thay will change over to dynamic if the buyer wants ?

this is the first thing i refuted.  i don't need to do it again. but i will point out that you brought up clothes that were primarily designed to be conforming and could be made dynamic after the fact.  which is why i said what i did.  i think some people make dynamic clothes because they're easier to get working than conforming.  which isn't bad at all, but it means that a lot of dynamic clothes don't have a lot of skill and knowledge put into them.  and they often seem to get treated as the easy, quick and dirty way to make clothes.  people see that, and then many think that's all dynamic clothes can be.  instead of trying to improve them.  so i think the above is a very negative starting point for discussing dynamic and hybrid clothing.

next you said

Quote - Dynamics has limits on what thay will do. No you are not going to get dynamics with any and all the detail you can get out of conforming.

i didn't say this statement was opinion, though the latter is.  i didn't say  as a statement it was ridiculous.  i said it's ridiculous to talk about limits to dynamics and hybrids now.   it's akin to looking at the limitations of posette's joints and saying, "well, poser joints have limitations."   everything has limitations, but it's absolutely ridiculous to talk about them when you've barely begun to explore the possibilities.  as svdl mentioned, the whole community has been using and creating conforming clothing for years.  talking about the limits of conforming clothing now, after easy pose underground, after erc, after joint controlled magnets, and after apollo, makes sense.  talking about the limits of dynamic clothing at this stage is not even vaguely equivalent.

making meshes that work properly in poser is only part of the issue.  and a small part at that.  there's lots of details i've run into in the cloth room, and most have had nothing at all to do with the mesh.

and no, you never literally said can't.  but "you are not going to get" and "can't" are so close in meaning as to be splitting hairs.

and you said limits.  as quoted above.  referring to that is accurate, not "unprofessional."  there's no need to get heated, but people are responding directly to what you are posting and the words you are using.  if you want to correct yourself and use different words, fine, but stop accusing people of putting words in your mouth when all they're doing is refuting precisely what you've posted.

RorrKonn: Did I say you don't know what your talking about?

Your taking this way to personal. That statement is one of the future not the past. it is not even directed at you. That was a statement on the direction of the whole convesation.

I'm an optimist, I see the world with a lot of work, and without limits, if that upsets you, then be your professional self, "as you say. " I have no doubt that you are!" But don't start climbing on an alter and start preaching that everyone is below you. You know nothing about me.

Thanks for those settings, I had pretty good results playing around with the Starlight gown, it draped properly and all skin was covered except a little of the calf on one leg...so, good for a first step!!  I'm still wanting to learn how to give a "flowing" look to it...ie, walking in the wind with the bell of the gown catching the breeze and blowing back, but, that's probably hit and miss playing with the dials and magnets.  Now that I have a tiny idea with a simple standing pose, I'll start playing around with sitting poses and more complicated angles.  This could be really fun!  Thanks for the quickie help.

you're welcome!  personally,  i haven't mastered the wind force, so i don't know how to actually make something blow in the wind.  in terms of trains trailing behind, it really matters where you start.  for instance, if you want something to trail behind someone, what you want is to start with the item above the floor (obvious, but bear with me) and then allow enough draping frames  for it to reach the floor before it starts  the simulation.  and in terms of the motion of the figure, you want her to move forward so that she can leave the train behind on the floor.  at least, that's what i've found works.

Slowhands your right, we do not know each other.

This is causing confusion and miss understanding.

I did not mean to sound like anyone was below me.

 

Since I am new to the forms

Don't guess any of you all knows how to take me.

There for, my post are not being taken the way I meant it.

Since I do not know you all I am taking you all's post wrong also.

Now where all on deferent pages.

This does not help production.

If we keep at it will get to know each other.

Then will all be on the same page.

Then production will be flying to the moon :)

 

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Cobaltdreams

 

Is the tan belt loops Dynamic ?

Is the belt Conforming or Dynamic ?

http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/ophoto/index.php?photoid=12498

 

Could you make the Dynamic pants button fly and put prop buttons on them ?

 

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

my pic: Escape from the Office

that image uses svdl's free office clothes.  the blouse has several different versions of fastening, the skirt unzips.  the blouse has buttons, and the skirt has a zipper.  note the visible seam at the bottom of the shirt.

he's making an even more complex hybrid set for v4.

this is what carodan said about his pants in this thread:

Quote - I'm getting more into using dynamic clothing. The realism just can't be beaten. I've also found that some conforming clothes convert quite well by exporting and reimporting them and running through the cloth room. In my pic I used the G2 Male Fashion Pants, magnet morphed to fit my Apollo character as closely as I could.

perhaps he went through the  trouble of keeping the belt conforming, but unless he used a hybrid and then said it was just dynamic,  pants are dynamic.  i can't imagine how he would attach the loops as separate props, and export the pants without them.

A3 Clock

 

http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/itemdetails/-/?item=2999

 

I do not think it does dynamic.

but it's just a cape one would think it would turn dynamic easy enough.

 

Is there a list some where of when your modeling dynamic meshes what to do what not to do ?

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

actually, i'm not sure that it would be ok.  the hooded cloak is double sided, and i believe one of the no-no's of modeling for the cloth room is no double-sided mesh.

RorrKonn: This is an excellent way to discuss things that we are all leaning from the Poser point of view, cutting edge ways to make Clothes from one another that will be to everyones benifit. I like that fact that every one is taking a look at different techniques of going about putting Clothes in motion. 

A Different point of view is vital to see things at a differnt perspective. What you experience is vital information that can be looked at, and studied. The things you experiece tells us all about problems or possable solutions that some may have not came across.

What we are doing now is working inside the box. The final porduct for fantastic clothing may well be a complete technique that is dicovered by accident, like Plastic was, as an example. 

What ever we end up with, I hope is a more automated way of putting the steps to get it to work easier for the majority of poser masses. This might well be in the Efrontieer end product. But it might very well be stimulated from one of the many people working to make Hi Bred Clothing or Dynamic clothing as easy as Conforming. You will then see that market explode. The person that comes up with that product should make a lot of money. I'm all for that! (Not in the big price tag, but in the number of sales)

I'm sure if you come up with a way of making a great product, and as simple of a product to use, that is a goldmine combonation.

yeah, i believe it was an accident that someone discovered you could apply cloth room settings with a material file.  at the very least, it's a use of material files that eF didn't foresee.

This is what confuses me.

the A3 Clock is double sides so it will not turn dynamic.

but the tan pants has belt loops.don't know if you would call them double sided but it's not a flat plane.

 

I can bevel a shirt collar and it turns dynamic.

Is not the bevel making the mesh double sided ?

 

I'm lost I do not get what the deference is between the clock,pants and shit collar.

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - RorrKonn: This is an excellent way to discuss things that we are all leaning from the Poser point of view, cutting edge ways to make Clothes from one another that will be to everyones benifit. I like that fact that every one is taking a look at different techniques of going about putting Clothes in motion. 

A Different point of view is vital to see things at a differnt perspective. What you experience is vital information that can be looked at, and studied. The things you experiece tells us all about problems or possable solutions that some may have not came across.

What we are doing now is working inside the box. The final porduct for fantastic clothing may well be a complete technique that is dicovered by accident, like Plastic was, as an example. 

What ever we end up with, I hope is a more automated way of putting the steps to get it to work easier for the majority of poser masses. This might well be in the Efrontieer end product. But it might very well be stimulated from one of the many people working to make Hi Bred Clothing or Dynamic clothing as easy as Conforming. You will then see that market explode. The person that comes up with that product should make a lot of money. I'm all for that! (Not in the big price tag, but in the number of sales)

I'm sure if you come up with a way of making a great product, and as simple of a product to use, that is a goldmine combonation.

 

Slowhands

I am glad we are all getting on the same page.and every thing is starting to run smoothly.

Killer cloths and $$$ would defiantly be to every ones benefit.

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

i defer to masters such as trav, svdl and others in this matter.  but i'm betting it has something to do with being a dynamic, soft-decorated, hard-decorated, or choreographed group.

quote: *i defer to masters such as trav, svdl and others in this matter.  but i'm betting it has something to do with being a dynamic, soft-decorated, hard-decorated, or choreographed group.

*It isn't really that hard but you have to be a little acquainted with the group-editor: Suppose you have a skirt with stitched-up pockets, a belt and buckle and some buttons on it and you want to lift up a tip of the skirt:
the skirt itself is part that moves, this is the dynamic group.
You don't want to drop the skirt, so a part  of the skirt is attached to the body, this is the constraint group.
The belt and the pockets move and folding with the shape of the skirt: this is the soft-decorated group.
The bucket and the buttons move with the skirt, but keep their own shape: this is the hard-decorated group.
And at last when you want to pull or raise a tip of the skirt, you select that part of the skirt where you grip it, and then you go to the pose room and you move the whole skirt in the last simulation-frame in the direction you want. In the simulation only the part you selected will move that way: this the choreographed group.

Hope this clear-up things, I spent the last five days in the cloth-room and I learned a lot of new things.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

I am starting to understand this stuff.

Poser 5, Don't think it has soft-decorated, hard-decorated.

May be I am missing some tools, 

Could not hurt to get Poser 7 as soon as possible.

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

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@ RorrKonn:

You're right about Poser 5, It didn't had decorated groups, just checked the manual.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Poser 5 does have soft and rigid decorated groups. It's just not described in the manual.

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Okay, my fault. Haven't used it for years!

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Quote - "Poser 5 does have soft and rigid decorated groups. It's just not described in the manual.[/quot]

Hell of a manual

If soft and rigid decorated groups are not in the manual.

I am open to suggestions on how to learn them ?

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

The Poser 7 tutorial manual goes way more in depth about the cloth room and the purpose of each function. But just remember while you are doing you construction of dynamic cloth that

Soft decorated Groups
Assign vertices to this group when you want them to flex and move with the underlying cloth. Such as belts, belt buckles and shoe strings. So in the cloth room you will see the button for Soft Decorated groups just select it and then the group box will pop open for you to select the areas that will belong to the Soft Decorated group.

Rigid Decorated groups
Theses are parts of the group that when you want then to move with the underlying cloth but they don't bend or flex. When these are usually your buttons and jewelry type stuff. And you would do the same for the Rigid Decorated click it and the group editor box will pop up for you to select the vertices for that group.

I recommend when modeling you outfits in whatever 3d app you already know what you want to do with each area and make the groups in the 3D App so when you pull it over to poser the groups you set in the 3D app will transfer over. And you can just select the groups that way when setting up.

Go to the cloth room hit whatever functions you are using and then select add a group and all the groups you made in your 3d app will appear for you to select and it will add your vertices that way. But the Poser 7 tutorial manual is more explanatory. But that is really all it is to it.

Yup ... and a lot of people aren't aware that there is a separate Poser Tutorial Manual that comes with Poser 6 and Poser 7.

In Poser 7, you can find it in PDF format in the e Frontier > Poser 7 > Tutorials folder (see inset). The bookmarks on the side in this screen shot show the section where you'll find tutorials on the Cloth Room and other rooms. The Poser 6 Tutorial Manual is similar.

I have always wondered, why they have put it in that directory and not in the poser-root directory like the other manuals. I once spent days on the internet looking for a face-room tutorial I had seen somewhere, to find out the particuar tutorial was in the manual in the tutorial directory!

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?