Sorry
Within 2 years you will have to upgrade as with 98 before microsoft realesed buger code in so many of last updates for 98 which made it so unstable.
So faulty code in updates for xp will be realesed forcing people to upgrade to vista, as already more people around world having xp problems, ever from the realese of i.e 7.
Talking to various hackers who agreed with me if you going to put vista on with xp, use xp only for your children to access internet, as when xp came out with a lot of it's spyware intact.
Millions of people around the world ended up with child pic's on thier system, lot's of pedo hacker's used xp spyware to get them on computer's.
So 1 chap i instaled 98 with full security so his children could access net while he and his wife used xp, put it this way thank's to gates and yank goverment having fun with xp.
Talking 1 policeman over here who was into catching pedo's he said they nabed 1 family's computer but found out they did not download the pic's it was a hacker who did it.
Why do you think microsoft were forced to close thier loopholes,, so thank's to bonzo bush wanting to spy on peep's computers vista has nice spyware built in.
FOR god's sake if you going to use a vista, xp combo machine do not do not do not let your children use vista to access internet, keep them with xp.
Remember bonzo bush gave himself powers that he can order us mail opened even stuff arriving into yank land, he can order a mail truck stoped and every letter and parcel opened on his orders with his new power's, so just imagine what he and gates have got upto with vista.

I wonder who in his right mind would even want Vista? I really thought slavery had been banned in the US, seems like Microsoft wants the whole world to be their slaves and only do what they want them to do.

It's finally becoming clear..... Bill Gates wants to rule the world and Windows is his main weapon to do so.

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Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Just why would a hacker bother to put pics on someone else's computer, for fun?, and then wait for a policeman to "come across" the pics? without any leads?
Loopy!
Do a .jpg/mpg/avi search of your pc and look for anything that shouldn't be there.
Never found anything I didn't download myself.

Easy. Someone used and unprotected computer as an echo point, so the wanted data was first downloaded there, then sent onward....meaning that a simple IP trace like many law enforcement agencies do would lead to the the first computer. And anything you download to your hard drives is still there; deleting it doesn't remove it, just the access reference. Even overwriting it doesn't mean it can't be reconstructed with the correct software. And very few people are capable of NSA level data wiping. Sounds like they got very lucky and the cops found the bot that the hacker used to make the system a zombie as well....

Quote -
Just why would a hacker bother to put pics on someone else's computer, for fun?, and then wait for a policeman to "come across" the pics? without any leads?
Loopy!
Do a .jpg/mpg/avi search of your pc and look for anything that shouldn't be there.
Never found anything I didn't download myself.

Never under estimate the sheer skill an boredom of hackers. Windows Vista - like others have said is going to be one giant piece of spyware. There are NEWS article (not just hearsay stories) where a member of Macrogreed oops I mean Microsoft's higher ups told Gates in a letter that he lost sight of the company's original goals and that he has put a price on customer security. Mainly for the way is starts shutting down (without notice) critical security related processes if unregistered. Which means (in theory) if someone went out an bought a new pc with Vista that wasn't hooked to the net - figured they didn't need to register it and at a later date did conect to the web - they'd be ... well you know what.

Microsoft has lost sight of its goals. However, its a giant ... and we've yet to find the giant killer. IF we could get a Linux version of poser ... perhaps we could tell good ole Bill where to go.

Just enjoying the Vue. :0)

As for 'having' to upgrade to Vista....why? So M$ refuses to 'support' XP after 2010 (they posture....but they said the same about 98, NT4, Win2k, etc...and the user base was still large enough to force them to extend); You find yourself with a stable system, it's insane to allow upgrades that could undo it. I still use 98SE and Win2K and could care less about 'support' (which isn't all that grand to begin with). Vista's DRM scheme is intrusive, draconian, and already rendered worthless (do a websearch on Muslix64; this kidlet has -already- cracked both blu-ray and HD-DVD encryption schemes). It interferes with programs doing their jobs.It doesn't matter what M$ wants; we are the consumers, and a simple refusal to blindly sheeple along with their plans is all we have to do to get the message across.

Being "hacked" is very nearly always not a case of real hacking, as in an outside person targeting your computer more or less at random and specifically banging on your machine until they get control of it. It always turns out to be an unsuspecting user opened one of those cute little attachments that make animated sheep or smiley faces or whatever jump around on your screen - in the mean time, the cute little .exe installs a not-so-cute little remote console server on your machine and notifies the originator (most likely a marginally skilled thirteen year old weenie who got his tools off of a kewlio website and doesn't really understand how they work).

Said weenie gets home from school, logs onto your machine via his cute little trapdoor, and does random things to your computer. It isn't hacking, it's just pathetic. NO AMOUNT of operating system security can really protect you from yourself if you don't take little time to learn how to keep your machine secure. If you are running any filesharing junk and hosting stuff for download off of your personal PC at home, you are basically advertising your machine as a target for bored 13 year old weenies.

If you have the most incredibly uber secure operating system in the world, and you are a fully permissioned adminstrator, you can very easily circumvent your own security, which is 99% of the time how "hacking" happens. Serious hackers don't waste their time deleting your precious 2gb of lesbian porn on your home PC.

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Someone tell me some good news.
I don't want my children to grow up in a world like this.
The words "revolution" or "Jihad" (fighting injustice and oppression) comes to mind.
Perhaps we don't really need computers at all, (says as he spends his 6th hour on his PC)

Bla bla bla bla end of world bla bla bill G .. bla bla bla... hackers more Bla bla ... etc etc ..
Do what i did ..GET a MAC..
End of windows story... and cheaper :}

IF YOU WANT TO CONTACT BAR-CODE SENT A PM to 26FAHRENHEIT "same person"

Chris

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I have Vista RC2 (not even final!) and it runs great, so does V6Infinite.

Just your graphics drivers. If you're using nvidia ones, get the new Forceware X betas. If you're using AMD/ATi, why even complain? Catalyst is stable and awesome.

And talking of DRM- if you don't touch it, it won't touch you. So much for FUD (oh wait, this is R'osity. :D)

In This Twilight- My FIRST public poser work in 2 years!
Also the reason why I endorse postwork (:D)

Man I love all of the conspiracy therorists who run rampant spreading crap rumors, spy ware inserted into XP when it shipped, buggy updates to force you to upgrade, blah blah blah. The basic facts are this, Vista is an overpriced eye candy with no major benefits, period. If you are looking to play the latest Directx 10 games, then yes you will be forced to go to Vista as Directx 10 will only be issued with Vista. If you are looking for a preyty desktop, go to Vista or Mac. If you have to much money on your hands, go to Vista or better yet send it to me. If your operating system works the way you want it to and see no foreseeable reason to change before 2010, then do like the rest of us are doing, place the tip of your thumb on the tip of your nose and wiggle your fingers vigorously at Bill Gates. If you are actually curious as to what problems you may come up against if you do go to Vista, do some research, do not come to Renederosity for answers as you will get the most assinign answers you can find, mine included.

I find it very interesting how everyone is already slating Vista, saying 'XP works fine, so I won't upgrade!'

Well, I have to say - XP is the best, most stable operating system I've used so far, so I can't argue with anyone who says they won't upgrade to a 'buggy', needless OS designed to line the pockets of Bill Gates.

However, don't forget we all said the same about Windows XP when I came out!!!

How wrong we were!

Apart from the security. That was naff.

With a name like Vista, you'd think they would have paid
some attention to the parts of the system that provide,
well, a vista.......

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Quote - Bla bla bla bla end of world bla bla bill G .. bla bla bla... hackers more Bla bla ... etc etc ..
Do what i did ..GET a MAC..
End of windows story... and cheaper :}

Actually MACs have had security loop holes for years. And now that the newer models run a windows platform as well - they are just as much a target as a regular ole PC.

Just enjoying the Vue. :0)

Back to the original thread (OpenGL on Vista), I've been reading a lot about Vista to try and decide if we want to upgrade our work PCs (we aren't for now) and OGL was an issue for us. Now in my rather limited knowledge, what I understand is that Vista does support OGL but under Direct X which greatly slows down performance. But most graphics apps use OGL from the video card not from the OS. While some (all?) apps may need to update the OGL part of thier apps, video card OGL should be about the same under Vista as XP. I have no idea how this effects Poser. This is just the impression I got and subject to correction:-) Best; Dan

I've no intention of switching to Vista at any time, unless absolutely forced to. I'm still using win2k on a laptop, and it works perfectly. XP pro is okay on my desktop. I just feel really sorry for all the punters out there who swallow the MS propaganda, and pay good money swapping out xp for vista only to find there's no advantage and possibly many disadvantages in doing so.

Steve

I don't think there is any compelling reason today to upgrade to Vista. I don't think anyone besides MS thinks there is. Most people will move to Vista in one of the following ways:

The biggie: You buy a new PC and Vista comes on it. End of story. Manufacturers will shortly stop shipping XP systems, if they haven't already.
You want to buy a cool new WiMax / USB3 / SuperSATA peripheral, but your XP system won't support it. This alone might not make you move, but it will elevate the justification for moving that much more in your mind.
Your favorite application (Not Poser! Heaven forbid!) discontinues support for Windows XP, or comes out in two versions, one that supports added functionality but runs under Vista and one that is limited but will run under XP. I predict that this will be common with 64-bit apps and that many of them will skip over XP64 support and make the jump directly from 32-bit to Vista-only 64-bit.
Somebody will come up with some excellent new piece of software that you love but that only runs under Vista. Or maybe you'll start to see dozens of cool, useful shareware/freeware apps that you like but that will only work under Vista.

The net effect of these will be the same - the Vista upgrade will start to seem more worthwhile, more people will start to get it, and eventually it will become the norm. The developers and the system builders are already there. The masses won't be far behind.

Bash MS if you like, but they're in a bit of a pickle. They make the lion's share of their money off Windows & Office. Linux is already nipping at Windows' heels, and smart devices are taking on more of the work that you used to need a desktop for. Services like Google Docs & Spreadsheets are just going to keep getting better, keep eating into their Office cash pile, and MS can only compete by matching their competitor's strategy and price structure, which makes them an also-ran rather than a market leader. They're concentrating their efforts in areas they think will be tough for competitors to match, and trying their best to grab hold of additional revenue streams before the one that sustains them turns from a river into a creek.

Jimdoria ~@>@

All I know is it went on sale last night and there was no big push to get it. Turn out was very low as opposed to a new video game system. I just built a brand new dual core machine with all the bells and whistles and it is more than Vista ready. However, I'm running Winxp SP2 and if I did want to change OS I'd go to XP pro before Vista. It was the same for me with Win98 I didn't upgrade until I bought a new PC with it installed.

My opinion is to watch and wait before we go saying the sky is falling.

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I have been having problems with Xp SR2 since Sunday and it's a FRESH INSTALL!!!!!! The firewall stopped working and can't be configured and the automatic updates keep installing the same thing over and over. So....... I donwloaded free ZoneAlarm firewall and enabled "High security stealth mode" which works pretty good. IP address sites can find Comcast Michigan, but no further. I also turned off automatic updates, which I was stupid enough to leave on in the first place. People who trust Microsoft are the same type of people that trusted Hitler. LOL!

I myself tend to skip a generation. I started with DOS, then when I abolutely had to,
went to Windows 3.1. (skipped 3.0). Then when I absolutely had to I went to
Windows 98 (skipped 95). Then when I absolutely had to went to Windows XP Pro.
(skipped NT, ME, 2000, et al). So what ever comes after Vista is the one I
guess I will install.

Attached Link: http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/Windows/en-US/Help/3ca0e305-6118-43be-9d5a-7820f7da66e41033.mspx

http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb173477.aspx

"Windows Vista provides the same support as Windows XP for OpenGL, which allows video card manufactures to provide an installable client driver (ICD) for OpenGL that provides hardware-accelerated support; note that newer versions of such ICDs are required to fully support Windows Vista. If no ICD is installed, the system will fall back to the OpenGL v1.1 software layer in most cases."

Sometimes it's easier to look up the facts than spend a lot of time discussing misinformation.

Quote - I myself tend to skip a generation. I started with DOS, then when I abolutely had to,
went to Windows 3.1. (skipped 3.0). Then when I absolutely had to I went to
Windows 98 (skipped 95). Then when I absolutely had to went to Windows XP Pro.
(skipped NT, ME, 2000, et al). So what ever comes after Vista is the one I
guess I will install.

You will probably have to wait a long time. MS has gone to about a five-year cycle on OS development, so whatever comes after Vista won't be until about 2011 or so.

Quote - I have been having problems with Xp SR2 since Sunday and it's a FRESH INSTALL!!!!!! The firewall stopped working and can't be configured and the automatic updates keep installing the same thing over and over. So....... I donwloaded free ZoneAlarm firewall and enabled "High security stealth mode" which works pretty good. IP address sites can find Comcast Michigan, but no further. I also turned off automatic updates, which I was stupid enough to leave on in the first place. People who trust Microsoft are the same type of people that trusted Hitler. LOL!

I invoke Godwin's Law.

I turned off those blasted automatic updates a long time ago as I don't want MS to just install anything it darn well pleases without me knowing about it.

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From what I've read so far, the only advantage that Vista seems to have over XP is that they're redesigning the UI or something. I don't care about that at all, and disable all the cute UI animations and effects. I want power, not stuff to take away my power.

I've also read somewhere that Vista is a sort of "in-between" release, very much like W2K easing user transition from Win98 to WinXP. Supposedly whatever comes after Vista is the sh*t. Also, if Vista uses the same code base as W2K (as XP32 does) then there's even less incentive to upgrade.

I still use Windows 2000 and I like it because it's streamlined (read: less fluffy features) and I have been seriously considering going Linux.

Err... Vista uses Server 03 code. They tried XP- oops I mean spaghetti, it wasn't good.

That's the reason Vista doesn't look to be much but is a blessing when used for long terms- OS itself never crashed ever since my November install.

In This Twilight- My FIRST public poser work in 2 years!
Also the reason why I endorse postwork (:D)

I second the "skip a generation", or wait and see policy.
Did it with Poser and Windows.
Let the guinea pigs sort out the problems and then change over to a "real" release if you want..
Can't believe that such buggy software can be released to the paying public. Hook, line and sinker.

Just FYI.... XP 64 -also- uses Server 2003 as its codebase, so you -do- have a choice on 64 bit windows apps at the moment. And since hardware companies are not going to be writing Vista drivers for your old hardware, that is no longer an excuse to use if you want to upgrade to 64 bits. Save your old drivers and learn to dual or multiboot (and all you have to do is take a little care with your system, build it right, and clean out the registry, and you can have a pretty stable system regardless. Hell's bells, my DOS box is running a 3 year old build of 98lite and hasn't BSODed in all that time. My current XP Pro install hasn't BSODed or gotten unstable since the first Nvidia driver update....the one that horked the PCI-E timing. Vista is no guarantee of stability, and with the driver revocation and code level DRM crapola, I would not be surprised that a serious trend of instability emerges once the thing actually gets out into the real world, not the carefully controlled world of corporate and beta testing. And I do know of at least 2 corporate level testers who have been unable to get the bloody thing to even =install=...my bet is firmware issues with the DVD drives they use. They aren't brand new and shiny and don't know what DRM is; they just read data off discs). Tom's Hardware has weighed in with some benchmarks...and the OpenGL performance is abysmal. OpenGL was intended to be a speed up; forcing it to run through DX10 is just M$'s latest attempt to kill off a standard that they do not own. And considering all the games that use OpenGl, and the professional graphics applications, this is simply unacceptable.

Quote - Can't believe that such buggy software can be released to the paying public. Hook, line and sinker.

Try writing software for a living, working early mornings to late nights living on caffeine, meeting deadlines while juggling incomplete or late specifications from other companies, while trying to make your software do all the things that a technically naive user base expects it to do, where half of them are demanding features that conflict with the features that the other half are clamoring for.

After you do that, try doing it while there are people calling you greedy, avaricious, insensitive, offspring of unmarried canines.

Better yet, build your own computer, and write your own damn operating system for it.

Whew... okay, that was a little bitter, wasn't it? Possibly that comes from me being in the middle of an overdue software project... I'll get back to my coffee and coding now.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Quote - > Quote - I myself tend to skip a generation. I started with DOS, then when I abolutely had to,

went to Windows 3.1. (skipped 3.0). Then when I absolutely had to I went to
Windows 98 (skipped 95). Then when I absolutely had to went to Windows XP Pro.
(skipped NT, ME, 2000, et al). So what ever comes after Vista is the one I
guess I will install.

You will probably have to wait a long time. MS has gone to about a five-year cycle on OS development, so whatever comes after Vista won't be until about 2011 or so.

Quote - <<From what I've read so far, the only advantage that Vista seems to have over XP is that they're redesigning the UI or something. I don't care about that at all, and disable all the cute UI animations and effects. I want power, not stuff to take away my power.

I've also read somewhere that Vista is a sort of "in-between" release, very much like W2K easing user transition from Win98 to WinXP. Supposedly whatever comes after Vista is the sh*t. Also, if Vista uses the same code base as W2K (as XP32 does) then there's even less incentive to upgrade.>>

See, this is why I usually skip a generation on Windows. If it's just until 2011, I can wait.
That's not really much different than the time frame from Windows 3.1 to Windows 98
or Windows 98 to Windows XP.

(BTW, just to show that sometimes an old version is still good enough, I have a 386 computer
with Windows 3.11 installed on it that I use to run a milling machine at work.)

Yeah, Hawk' ol' buddy, I'm thinking I may be working a little too hard lately... perhaps I need to get hammered, instead of hammering out code. Worth thinkin' 'bout, huh? :biggrin:

Think about it, though. Microsoft has access to millions of PCs, and he could install anything on your computer. I'm sure they wouldn't. They just want to make more money, but I can imagine what Stephen King could do with this scenario..... Anyone read "Cell"?

Quote - Think about it, though. Microsoft has access to millions of PCs, and he could install anything on your computer. I'm sure they wouldn't. They just want to make more money, but I can imagine what Stephen King could do with this scenario..... Anyone read "Cell"?

In that same vein (pun intended) your physician has access to many, many types of hallucinatory, dependency-inducing, and just plain poisonous pharmaceuticals. I'm sure he wouldn't inject you with anything that will make you sicker and call it a "flu shot" just to make more money off of you and your health concerns. But you never know.

I admire anyone who can write programs and code because I'm one of those naive bloaks that has no idea what most of this stuff means. My career was spent on breaking things LOL! Hardware, no problem I love building PCs and loading up the OS and other apps is cake for me. However, if it's a software problem I'm FUBAR sometimes I wonder if I'm too damn dense. Big kudos to you programmer types!!

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Quote - I admire anyone who can write programs and code because I'm one of those naive bloaks that has no idea what most of this stuff means. My career was spent on breaking things LOL! Hardware, no problem I love building PCs and loading up the OS and other apps is cake for me. However, if it's a software problem I'm FUBAR sometimes I wonder if I'm too damn dense. Big kudos to you programmer types!!

Not at all... being a programmer doesn't really require smarts so much as a willingness to lose your social skills while thinking like a machine, substituting coffee for food, and bashing your head into a wall periodically when someone says (for the two hundred sixty seventh time), "Yeah, I know that's what I said I wanted, but that isn't what I meant I wanted, you'll have to change it."

sigh

At least computers (hardware and software) are easier than raising kids. :biggrin:

I run XP Pro 64 bit and XP Pro 32 bit.
I've tried Vista RC1, the 64 bit version. An abundance of graphical goodies, and I couldn't find anything. Made my PC feel like a Mac.

I'll probably upgrade my 64 bit workstations to WinXP 64 bit in the near future. Sleek, fast, no unnecessary junk. I want those CPU cycles for rendering! No Vista for me.

Security? No problem. Anyone trying to get into my home network first needs to pass the firewall in my broadband router (not easy), then it'll have to pass a locked down 2003 Server (also not easy), before he finally can enter my workstations. And I monitor those, I know each and every process that SHOULD run on the machine.

My log files show regular automated attacks over the years. None of them has ever gotten through.

Support? Microsoft will continue to support WinXP for several years to come. Which is FAR better than ANY other software company I have ever dealt with.
Poser 7 has been released - no more updates for Poser 6. Vue 6 has been released - no more updates for Vue 5. This is the usual update policy of almost all software companies.

DRM: No, I don't like it. I don't like it at all. Neither do the Microsoft engineers. They wouldn't have implemented it if they had not been forced to do so by the music and movies industry.
Linux does not have DRM. And if I read the signs right, new versions of Linux will be required to have the same DRM crap as Vista (and Mac OSX next version). By law. Legislature bought by the film and music industry.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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Well, for Captain Jack. I was the first woman machine tool designer in Michigan, when we did NOT have PCs, at least not the kind they make nowdays. They were huge contraptions with tape drives and no GUIs. We programmed things called "progrmable controllers" I can't believe it was over 25 years ago. PCs have come so far.

I go back to waiting in line to feed punch cards into a stack, then waiting in another room for someone to throw your output into a numbered bin. Fun, it was. That and "washing machine" disk drives, that could sometimes hold a whopping six megabytes of data. Those were definitely the days.

Although I hold Windows Vista "Home Premium" I stare with confusion and ask why? Why did MS have these 32-Bit DVD's/CD's on the shelf other than 64-Bit? It is Written on the DVD; "This Disk Contains 32-Bit Software only". And inside is info you can get the 64-Bit by going to MS website. There will be a cost. Now, with all that. hearing and reading that Windows-Vista is focused on newer computers. Isn't the new computers, or majority of people who will purchase Vista will own 64-Bit PCs and Why 32-Bit? Confused and for some reason it doesn't seem right to pay to get the 64-Bit DVD (or CD's), also the waiting for the Package delivery. Their is some confusion here on Vista owning. "Home Basic" is what really confuses me about the choices. Only 2 features while others have way more features, and for the price. That Edition I feel that choice should be about $50. Well, low enough. Not fair, but that is not up to me to make that decision. So, I ended up with "Home Premium" to get these extra goodies. I haven't installed it yet. But waiting for the day when it is ok to.

I recall when I was using WinME, and everyone was chatting..."I will never own WinXP", and I was following em. Surpisenly, I was stund, and being left behind while other jump OS to XP, when they wrote they were not going to. Finding it was a stable system, than the resent ones. Reason I purchased my copy of Vista in the store, was due to stay with the times and the in the store freebies that comes with a new OS every time it hits the shelf on day one (I was given a cordless RangeBooter N Router: Model Dir-625). I also recall getting into arguements, about "You have to stay with technology, and that is the way it is. So, live with it!". I disliked it, but I had no choice to agree. Now, I am on the other side again. Where people are stating "will never get Vista!, and why would any one go out and do so?" And the arguement persist of the speed of technology, where now I agree "To live with it", and where the majority of others disagree. I am at a stand still.

I never purchased P7 for a reason, yes, that it is better. Of course the next version of anything will be better than the resent versions. Windows Vista was about to be released when P7 hit the market, so the stability will be confusing. Poser 8 (if their will be a Poser 8), will have the stability to function nicely with Windows Vista and on older OS's like XP. EF had the jump to market a new version before the new OS "Vista" hits the shelf. Was to soon after Poser 6 was released a year before. Got me off guard and didn't seem right to ignore poser 6 owners after the release of P7, when in fact P6 does have issues, and P7 should have been an update. So, who is the one being greedy here? Both I can see.

I'm getting more and more tired of constantly 'having' to update. It's costing $$$ and often you get very little in return. I dumped Vue after finding out E-On's great upgrade tactics. EF seems to start following the same pattern now. There are some interesting features in P7, but to me they're not worth the money at the moment. Vista isn't worth it either, I'm not intending to pay over $200 for an os. Then there's the need of a new pc if I buy Vista.

I'm still using Bryce 5, Cinema4D v6, and some other older software. It does what it needs to do, so I never bothered to upgrade. Still running Win2000 on my second pc and laptop. Never cared for an upgrade at all, they both run smooth, so why change it?

I've asked myself a few simple questions.... Will Vista improve my workflow? Will Vista make my comics look better? Very doubtfull. Will Poser 7 improve my workflow? Will Poser 7 make my comics look better? Very doubtfull as well. Will Vista run my office application and desktop publishing / paint / photo applications better? Again very doubtfull. Does Vista connect to the web better? Nope..... even Windows 98 connects very well to the web.

WindowsXP will still do well for at least 5 years, most likely 10. I've only switched to XP because of Vue 5 and I still regret it at times. Can't go back now to Win98se, since Poser 6 needs XP, so I'll stick with WinXP on my main machine.

All in all I rather spent my hard earned cash on something more fun then some stupid upgrades I don't even really need.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

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Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - Not at all... being a programmer doesn't really require smarts so much as a willingness to lose your social skills while thinking like a machine, substituting coffee for food, and bashing your head into a wall periodically when someone says (for the two hundred sixty seventh time), "Yeah, I know that's what I said I wanted, but that isn't what I meant I wanted, you'll have to change it."

sigh

At least computers (hardware and software) are easier than raising kids. :biggrin:

Sounds just like military service in a way especially when dealing with certain types of line officers LOL!

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Quote - I go back to waiting in line to feed punch cards into a stack, then waiting in another room for someone to throw your output into a numbered bin. Fun, it was. That and "washing machine" disk drives, that could sometimes hold a whopping six megabytes of data. Those were definitely the days.

LOL, me too, that was my first experience with computer. Writing programs in Fortran
and putting the program on a stack of punch cards for an IBM 360. Turning the cards
in and then coming back the next day for the paper print-out. Then repunching
the cards that were wrong and resubmitting it. And you dare not drop the stack
of cards.

We have some ancients here. ;) My 'mentor' who taught me programming (on a C64) used to have the 10" floppy disk and talked about not dropping the stack of punch cards - shudders. I guess we can all be glad that we didn't have to start on vacuum tubes with plugin cables to program...

And there is one reason why you will be upgrading to Vista (or its successor) at some stage - you will no longer be able to run newer software that will be written solely 64-bit. Glad you like C4D R6 (chuckle), but that's sort of like sticking by that old Ford-T while on the highway with minimum speed limite of 55 mph. R7 was a big jump, R8 is about three big jumps, R9 is about ten or more big jumps, R10 is about thirty jumps ahead of R6. To list the features and improvements that you are missing would require a book. I don't jump on every new thing, but if someone offers me a pneumatic nailer to replace a wooden hammer, guess which one I'ma pickin'. ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - I wonder who in his right mind would even want Vista? I really thought slavery had been banned in the US, seems like Microsoft wants the whole world to be their slaves and only do what they want them to do.

It's finally becoming clear..... Bill Gates wants to rule the world and Windows is his main weapon to do so.

Just why would anyone no buy a system because Bill Gates owns it?? If its not Bill then it would be someone else. I do plan on upgrading to Vista because of the DX 10 and better security. And there is NO other OS that allows me to do just what i want and with ease of use. I dont want a Mac because it doesnt support all of the games i play or all the programs i use,nor does any of the free OS out there.

Thinking like yours really doesnt do anything,nor is it a good reason to not buy Windows.

Jack Of All Trades Master Of None

* Glad you like C4D R6 (chuckle), but that's sort of like sticking by that old Ford-T while on the highway with minimum speed limite of 55 mph. R7 was a big jump, R8 is about three big jumps, R9 is about ten or more big jumps, R10 is about thirty jumps ahead of R6. To list the features and improvements that you are missing would require a book.

*That's the thing..... I'm not missing those features at all. Besides when it comes to speed, C4D R6 is lightning fast. I've got TrueSpace 6.6 also (which is much more up to date) and it still can't beat C4D R6 when it comes to speed and features. I've looked at R10 and for what I use R6 I wouldn't even know what to do with the new features.

And there is one reason why you will be upgrading to Vista (or its successor) at some stage - you will no longer be able to run newer software that will be written solely 64-bit.

I can't do that at the moment either, still use a 32bit machine. Also most software I do own suits me very well, I don't care about the latest game or running the newest 3D Studio Max or MS Office. So it's very unlikely I will update to any 64bit application for a long time.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - I read that Micro$oft also plans on charging a fee PER MONTH, for virus protection!

This tells by itself how flawed and unsecure Vista will be.
If Vista would be secure what's the need for an anti-virus?????

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote - That's the thing..... I'm not missing those features at all. Besides when it comes to speed, C4D R6 is lightning fast. I've got TrueSpace 6.6 also (which is much more up to date) and it still can't beat C4D R6 when it comes to speed and features. I've looked at R10 and for what I use R6 I wouldn't even know what to do with the new features.

Cinema 4D is fast, that's for sure. As a plugin developer, I have quite a few versions installed (6, 8.3, 8, 8.2, 8.5, 9, 9.1, 9.5, 9.6, 10). If you can live without HDRI, SSS, Displacement, (and so on) and most C4D plugins, so be it. :)

Quote - can't do that at the moment either, still use a 32bit machine. Also most software I do own suits me very well, I don't care about the latest game or running the newest 3D Studio Max or MS Office. So it's very unlikely I will update to any 64bit application for a long time.

There will come a time in the not-too-distant future when you'll need software and it will only be 64-bit. There are few 16-bit apps written these days (very, very few). And, of course, to run a 64-bit app you will need 64-bit hardware. And, sorry to say, the only choice soon will be 64-bit hardware. Look at your local computer store for AGP graphics cards - they are virtually nonexistent. PCI graphics - get an old one on eBay, maybe. 99.9% of graphics cards are now PCI-Express - even to my relatively up-to-date detriment.

Yes, there are people out there that still use Commodore 64 computers or Windows 3.0, but they aren't exactly on the bleeding edge of, well, 1990. Just because a computer or its software is old doen't negate its usefulness for a purpose. You can still do ballistics and aerial targeting with a vacuum tube system - ala 1945.

My point is that at some point your hardware will fail! This is assured. When your motherboard/cpu/graphics/memory goes you are going to be hard-pressed to find the old hardware to replace it. Might not be for some time - but the longer you hold out, the less likely. Graphics is going PCI-E, harddrives are going SATA, memory is going SDDR (or whatnot), DVD is going DL or Blu-Ray, monitors are going DVI. Within five or so years, you'll have to scavenge and dumpster-dive to get compliant hardware for your ancient computer. Been there.

As an example, I was an avid Amiga user back in the late-80's, early 90's. When they went under, I continued to use my A2000. Later on, I wanted to get back into it with an A4000 towered system. The latest OS wasn't too bad but needed heaps of third-party stuff thrown at it to make it 'modern' (internet, 32-bit video, extended memory, and so on). Memory required some handy-man rigging (hot glue and a daughter board). The 32-bit graphics card was a rare and nearly impossible find from a German seller. The audio card was as rare. It was like building a Ford Model-T - you had to find enthusiasts who collected the ancient parts and stored them and were willing to sell them for actual use.

Robert

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - you will no longer be able to run newer software that will be written solely 64-bit.

What about XP64 ? It works well, is very fast, very stable, can easily be stripped down (I run it with the 2K interface) and run all 64 bits application you give it to run.
I think I have a fairly descent machine (Dual Opteron 280 - total 4 cores -, 4 go memory, Geforce 7900 GTX) and though I don't plan on installing Vista because I bought this hardware for my programs, not for my OS
Don't get me wrong, Vista is probably very good for the basic user, the person who do a bit of internet, use office, play some game. It's supposed to be user friendly, fairly secure and so on.
But, when you use your computer do to more demanding stuff like rendering, programing, video editing, you usually prefer keeping the resources for the programs you run.
I don't care about the "pretty" interface, as stated earlier, I run my XP with the window classic style (I don't need big window borders eating my screen space and I prefer using my memory for something else than running the theme service). I don't care for indexing service, for restore point and so on, when I know I will install some drivers I'm not sure they will behave then I use Acronis (on CD, I don't want the services running all the time). Security, well, I have my own firewall just behind my router - a freebsd box - and and it's far better than anything you will find in Vista (of course I don't doubt a REALLY gifted hacker could go through, but I guess a really gifted hacker would have more intersting things to hack than my computer, and anyway, gifted hackers are not those I fear since they usually only "tag" your computer to show they were here, the ones I fear are the script kiddies, and those just don't have the skill to hack a freebsd box).
It's a tendency now to bloat every single program (not to mention the tendency to have programs which will load in memory when you start your computer, or start as services, weither you plan to use them in your work session or not, cf. Acrobat) It might be fine for the basic user since they usually have more processing power than they really use, but it's not too good for people with less basic needs (and if you do 3D you're among those with less basic needs).
And last but not the least, all this DRM crap, I don't use my computer to make pirate copy of DVDs or CDs, I don't have time for that and anyway I have enough music on the Jazz radios, enough movies on TV so i see no reason why I should be bugged down by background programs which will run all the time to make sure I don't do "bad" things. I wonder how long it will take before they finally understand this kind of crap only really damage the "honest" users (Not long ago, I had to answer I don't know how many question about why I had reinstalled my computer before I get a new key to reactivate a software I had bought, I'm pretty sure a "pirate" would only have needed to run a crack to get it to work again, ridiculous
So basically, I wouldn't mind Vista, but it would be nice if at the same time XP64 was still really actively maintained (meaning drivers still written and so on)
I'm aware maybe in four or five years I will have to switch to vista, but then I will probably have a dual quad core or a maybe dual octo core so It won't matter that much, if the computer is 4 times faster than what I have now, I can live with an os 20% slower :)
Ab

Quote - > Quote - I read that Micro$oft also plans on charging a fee PER MONTH, for virus protection!

This tells by itself how flawed and unsecure Vista will be.
If Vista would be secure what's the need for an anti-virus?????

I'd stick to NAV or AVG.

Nothing about unsecure (maybe flawed). Someone mentioned going to Mac. The more popular Macs become, the more unsecure they become. Windows is so much at the forefront of various attacks because it is the most ubiquitous OS in the WORLD! There are literally hundreds of millions of Windows users - and why attack a stable (but geekishly unfriendly) OS like Unix when you can attack a well-spring of easy pickin's in Windows. MacOS barely registers on the hacker/cracker/viral radar. But if and when they do, is Apple in for an a-reaming.

Rule Numero Uno:

No software is safe from assault. The best, strongest, most invested-in protection cannot be totally secure against attack ever. Most crackers/hackers use a simple rule - if you can't beat the protection, go around it. People don't realize this. Even if software checks against some 1024-bit super encryption every other line of code (which would render the software useless), the cracker will just find a way around the check. There is no way to prevent this. They've tried hardware locks (dongles), serial numbers, keys, licenses, internet verification, PGP - it doesn't matter. Dongles are especially hilarious in that crackers just reroute the 'hardware' dongle to a software proxy that always returns the OK for the hardware. How pathetic.

Windows XP Pro and Server 2003 are still available for free use on any street corner in China. And this is a company that has invested literally millions in crack prevention! The only victims here are the poor users who are subjected to the more and more Draconian 'anti-piracy' measures.

Note that SPAM is still prevalent, DOS attacks still happen, virii still propagate, and software is still pirated - all some 20+ years since these vulnerabilities became know. The only way to stop this stuff is to make laws and enforce them internationally (extradition and all if need be). When the crime causes time, only then will the scum diminish.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - There will come a time in the not-too-distant future when you'll need software and it will only be 64-bit. There are few 16-bit apps written these days (very, very few). And, of course, to run a 64-bit app you will need 64-bit hardware.

16 bit and 32 bits apps are very different, but there's no difference between a 32 bit and a 64 bit application unless you want you access more than 4 GB or your code use any of the eight new 64 bit registers and some new opcodes.

Stupidity also evolves!

Abraham, I'm not exactly promoting upgrading to Vista - just making some points. I too use XP Pro 64-bit and plan on using it for as long as possible. But at some point, M$ is going to discontinue support here and make it obvious that upgrading is an only option (hardware, drivers, software).

As I noted, the DRM is definitely crapola. I've already experienced the "full power of the death star" with an unwanted, unintentional update to WMP 11. This DRM is reminding me of the tactics used by the RIAA (probably instigated by them, I suspect).

Hopefully, when the time comes that Vista cannot be avoided, they do have the option to avoid the bells & whistles (like in XP). And hopefully, enough complaints and class action suits will have prompted M$ to back down on their ridiculous DRM. :)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - > Quote - There will come a time in the not-too-distant future when you'll need software and it will only be 64-bit. There are few 16-bit apps written these days (very, very few). And, of course, to run a 64-bit app you will need 64-bit hardware.

16 bit and 32 bits apps are very different, but there's no difference between a 32 bit and a 64 bit application unless you want you access more than 4 GB or your code use any of the eight new 64 bit registers and some new opcodes.

Huh?

The differences are identical! 16-bit = 65536 (or 32768 byte signed) memory addressing max. 32-bit = 4GB (or 2GB signed) memory addressing max. 64-bit = 5 EB memory addressing. It's all about address space - nothing else.

The similarity is that when 16-bit went 32-bit, 16-bit addressing support was retained just as when 32-bit has gone 64-bit, 32-bit addressing has been retained.

Just like the old switchover, 32-bit apps could not be run on old 16-bit computers. Same for 64-bit apps. You can't run a 64-bit app on 32-bit hardware. When software is compiled for 64-bit memory addressing, I want to hear about you running it on your 32-bit computer - yeah...okay....

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - No software is safe from assault. The best, strongest, most invested-in protection cannot be totally secure against attack ever.

100% secure is impossible, but you can achieve very high levels of security.
Rule #1
No remote execution of code is allowed.

With only folowing this rule:

No matter which site do you visit there's no way to a virus or spy be installed in your computer.
No way to a hacker can enter your computer through the internet.
No virus can be installed by a received email.

But if this rule is followed:

No automatic upgrades to your computer.
No way to Micro$oft modify your computer online.
No activeX.
No way for companies install toolbars, search engines and propaganda popups into your computer.

The only way to have your computer infected is to you by yourself run an infected executable file, downloading a virus is innofensive, you must execute it !!!
As remote code execution is not allowed, the only way to execute a virus is by your own hands, of course you can be cheated by an email.
"This is funny, click here: funny.exe" (no hidden extensions allowed, allways appear .exe and exe is the only executable allowed (no .scr, .pif))
After clicking on "funny.exe" will appear a message: "do you want to install"/run this program?"
If you answer yes, the problem is yours, security has it limit and the limit is stupidity.

Stupidity also evolves!

True if we're talking internet connection. But this doesn't consider cracks (hey, people like free software) and hacks (if on the internet at any length). Cracked software is an excellent means to introduce viruses, adware, zombies. Hackers are not waiting for a user to invite them in, they are attacking exploits to break down the door. Users who are aware of this can usually safely guard against it (firewalls and such). But that doesn't negate the potential. Security flaws in HTML, FTP, Email, and other servers and hardware connections are quickly exploited. And that doesn't even consider open ports (which should be protected by a good firewall).

We are all aware of the IE buffer overrun exploit that allowed malicious code to be run if visiting a website or by some other means. Didn't always require a hapless user clicking an email link - just needed to be unfortunate enough to happen upon the site somehow.

For instance, I was privy to a nice (but short-lived) DOS attack on my website recently. Basically, the script-kiddie was repeatedly downloading a set of large zips files off my site to bring down the site otherwise. Not much to do about that - except ban the IP address and hope it wasn't a zombie attack (wherein the IP could easily be switched). Even major corporations require some hefty layering, real-time diagnostic software, and well-versed system admins to avoid these - hopefully.

As you note, to cause the damage, one must execute the code. Any code that is executed is vulnerable to some form of vulnerability. All code is executed (or it's sort of useless). Yes, most times this is easily avoided by following simple rules - don't open unsolicited email, never click on email links, don't use cracked software, keep software updated especially when the udpates fix vulnerabilities, run AV, run firewalls, run Ad-blockers, run Pop-up blockers, etc.. But most users are not very savvy.

Then there is the worst of all - root-kit type software that is unexpected, uncontrollable, automatic, while also being a probable pathway for exploits. Sony paid dearly (thankfully) for such an excursion. This still requires a user to unintentionally provide an avenue for exploits (software, internet) - yet still very dangerous potential.

The problem is that the internet is ubiquitous. I couldn't operate without an internet connection. My business depends upon it (both for serving as well as connnectivity for communal response and informational/data resources). And that ubiquity is OBVIOUSLY exploited by scum who know that most people are not going to turn off their computer every time they go to get a cup of coffee or go to sleep. These connections are becoming more permanent and that makes for a nice continuous stream of possibilities for them. Even then, my mail and dns servers are local - always privy to attack. If a user gets past the hardware firewall into one of these, they have free-reign. It has happened to some extent.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - The similarity is that when 16-bit went 32-bit, 16-bit addressing support was retained just as when 32-bit has gone 64-bit, 32-bit addressing has been retained.

The meaning of instructions in 16 bit and 32 bit is not the same, for running a 16 bit application in a 32 bit machine you have to switch the CPU to the protected mode (16 bit).
You can still run 16 bit apps in 64 bit machines switching to the protected mode.

The meaning of instructions in 32 bit and 64 bit is the same, you can run a 32 bit application in a 64 bit machine in 64 bit mode without any need to changing the CPU mode.
There are only some few exception for codes written in an unusual way (manipulation of SS, ES, DS segment registors) that need the CPU to be switched to the 32 bit mode.

Quote - Just like the old switchover, 32-bit apps could not be run on old 16-bit computers. Same for 64-bit apps. You can't run a 64-bit app on 32-bit hardware. When software is compiled for 64-bit memory addressing, I want to hear about you running it on your 32-bit computer - yeah...okay....

32 bit applications don't run in a 16 bit machines, with 80386 were added a lot of new instructions to the old 16 bit CPUs, this new instructions don't exist in 16 bit.
Many 64 bit application can run in 32 bit machines, the instructions are the same, but if the 64 bit application use some newer instructions of CPU64 then the app will not run in 32 bit machines.
All will depend how you write the code, you can write a code that will work in any 32 or 64 bit machine at its full performance.

The difference between 32 and 64 bit CPU is very small, mainly the difference is that the addressing was extended from 32 bit to 64 bit. The high order 32 bits are considered zero unless overrided by a prefix instruction (new) or explicited by a new instruction.
As the 32 bit code haven't this new instructions the 64 bit CPU treats the higher 32 bit of the address as zero so it run without any problem in the lower 4 GB of memory.
If a 64 bit code doesn't use the new instructions then the higher 32 bits of the address is always zero and will run without any problem in 32 bit machines.

Stupidity also evolves!

I have a 64 bit processor and PCI-E 16 video card and I know in time I will need a 64-bit OS. I just want to see how vista shakes out first. I want a 64-bit OS I spent the time building a machine for 64-bit apps. However, when it come to choosing an OS all I become is confused. Everybody says their rig and the OS they are using is the best so it makes my head swim. I'm not a software savvy person I understand hardware but I do know enough about software that I don't want to run a resource hog with unneeded tripe and unnecessary eye candy. Outside of a virus and firewall running in a separate process I don't see the need to have a bunch of processes running behind the scenes. Some say this is a trademark of M$, others say it's no big deal and that those who say this about M$ are over stating the facts.

All I want is a nice, clean and efficient OS without a bunch of BS to mesmerize me like a tribe of indigenous people seeing shiny trinkets for the first time. If an OS has to have these things to sell then one must question the developers. Why is it a hard thing to ask for? A clean, lean, efficient simply written OS? If M$ is in fact putting other things into Vista or any of their other OS what is the purpose? I recall the time I was told to get Norton, "Norton is the bomb Chief" it wasn't for me all I saw was in intrusive app that wound it's tentacles around everything in my box. I also don't have the cash laying around like some of these big shots to dump into a system to run all the bloated software recommended by said software giants. Kids in college will do that to you bank account LOL!

So in a nut shell, what is one suppose to do when choosing an OS? Whom do you listen to? That's why I wait and see. As far as Vista is concerned all I have heard is the negative about drivers not being able to handle most of the hardware out now or not being able to run certain apps. Vista is intrusive, Vista is full of M$ spyware, etc, etc. So for me I guess waiting is key.

My Facebook Page

@Sealtm2 : If you want to remain in the Windows world, your choice will be fairly limited : XP64 or Vista 64.
If you're not really interested I would say, XP64 is probably the best choice (it's a very stable OS, very similar to XP but in fact based on 2003 Server. You don't have more service running than on a standard XP and you can deactivate those you don't need as easily. Personally, I will stick with it as long as possible).
The only inconvenient you might encounter with XP 64 is the fact that some hardware won't work and no one will bother writing drivers for them (it, not a concern with current hardware since all new hardware come with an XP64 driver, it shouldn't be a concern with future hardware either, at least for a couple of years but it will wastly depends on the success of Vista) XP 64 is not a mainstream OS and some company just don't bother writing drivers for it (I had this problem with a Canon 3200 scanner for exemple) This will probably not be the case with Vista since it will be the main Windows OS for a while
To sum up : my OS of choice XP 64 but knowing there might be some driver problem in the future if Vista is very successful and if the hardware manufacturers start to think making XP 64 drivers isn't worth the money

In order to run 32 bit code (under a 64 bit operating system), you have to actually switch the processor into 32 bit mode while that process is running. Windows (XP-64 and Vista 64 bit) handle this automatically, switching to the proper processor mode when switching to another process and then switching back.

It's the same thing with running 16 bit processes under 32 bit windows; the operating system handles all the necessary mode switches automatically. Probably the main reason that 64 bit windows can't handle 16 bit code is probably because the added complexity it would entail isn't worth it, considering that 16 bit is about as obsolete as it gets.

The advantage to 64 bits over 32 bits is the greatly increased address space. Under 32 bits, a process is limited to 2 GB of memory (3GB with the proper kernel switches and the application relinked to work with it), no matter how much RAM you have installed. It doesn't even matter how much swap space you have or are willing to use, you can only address 4GB with a 32 bit pointer, and the kernel takes up 2GB of that.

The x86-64 also adds an additional 8 registers (available only in 64 bit mode) to an architecture that is sorely lacking in registers. (Which even so still only gives it half the architectural registers that most RISC architectures have).

Quote - > Quote - Not at all... being a programmer doesn't really require smarts so much as a willingness to lose your social skills while thinking like a machine, substituting coffee for food, and bashing your head into a wall periodically when someone says (for the two hundred sixty seventh time), "Yeah, I know that's what I said I wanted, but that isn't what I meant I wanted, you'll have to change it."

sigh

At least computers (hardware and software) are easier than raising kids. :biggrin:

Sounds just like military service in a way especially when dealing with certain types of line officers LOL!

Hey, you can combine the two and become a programmer working for a defense contractor. I'm currently considering designing a game called "Milestones and MIL-STDs", the exciting boardgame of the DoD Aquisitions Process.

Quote - > Quote - I go back to waiting in line to feed punch cards into a stack, then waiting in another room for someone to throw your output into a numbered bin. Fun, it was. That and "washing machine" disk drives, that could sometimes hold a whopping six megabytes of data. Those were definitely the days.

LOL, me too, that was my first experience with computer. Writing programs in Fortran
and putting the program on a stack of punch cards for an IBM 360. Turning the cards
in and then coming back the next day for the paper print-out. Then repunching
the cards that were wrong and resubmitting it. And you dare not drop the stack
of cards.

When I was an undergrad, one of the computer rooms was in the same building as where the Cornell Film Series showed films every night -- I used to drop off the job at 8, watch the movie, and get the printout afterwards. Upson Hall was next to the (old) baseball diamond, so in the spring I would often watch the baseball team while waiting for my printouts.

[{quote]No software is safe from assault. The best, strongest, most invested-in protection cannot be totally secure against attack ever.
100% secure is impossible, but you can achieve very high levels of security.
Rule #1
No remote execution of code is allowed.

The only way to have your computer infected is to you by yourself run an infected executable file, downloading a virus is innofensive, you must execute it !!!

There have been cases of published software, by major vendors, having viruses. There are also other attacks (such as buffer-overflow attacks) which do not require the user to initiate the remote execution. Also, the level of lock-down required to avoid all possible methods of insertion of viruses is sufficiently draconian that it is infeasable for most home users.

Quote - My point is that at some point your hardware will fail! This is assured. When your motherboard/cpu/graphics/memory goes you are going to be hard-pressed to find the old hardware to replace it. Might not be for some time - but the longer you hold out, the less likely. Graphics is going PCI-E, harddrives are going SATA, memory is going SDDR (or whatnot), DVD is going DL or Blu-Ray, monitors are going DVI. Within five or so years, you'll have to scavenge and dumpster-dive to get compliant hardware for your ancient computer. Been there.

The Airforce has had to do this to replace radiation-hardened 386 chips.

Quote - All I want is a nice, clean and efficient OS without a bunch of BS to mesmerize me like a tribe of indigenous people seeing shiny trinkets for the first time. If an OS has to have these things to sell then one must question the developers. Why is it a hard thing to ask for? A clean, lean, efficient simply written OS?

Well, you have Linux. You have different versions of Linux, some fast and other slow.
You have also the advantage to compile the kernel to match your hardware making it a fast and very efficient operational system.

Quote - In order to run 32 bit code (under a 64 bit operating system), you have to actually switch the processor into 32 bit mode while that process is running.

The 32 bit mode is a mode where 100% of the 32 bit applications can run on a 64 bit CPU, but you also can run a 32 code in the 64 bit mode or running under 32 bit mode you can access more than 4 GB of memory

Quote - Windows (XP-64 and Vista 64 bit) handle this automatically, switching to the proper processor mode when switching to another process and then switching back.

This thing I have really doubts. I doubt that Vista or XP64 runs under 64 bit mode, , probably repeating the story of the past of Windows 3.1 and 32 bits, Vista64 or XP64 is only running in 32 bit mode accessing over 4 GB of memory.
In 64 bit mode is not used any more segmentation, it use a linear addressing. This destroys all the Windows structure and all the Windows code must be rewriten. I doubt very much that Micro$oft did this work, probably they patched only some parts of the 32 bit Windows making it access more than 4 GB, and of course using only 32 bit mode.
I suppose that in 2012 Windows will be really 64 bit and anot a patched 32 bit sold as it was 64 bit.
You know very well the story, a full 32 bit Windows 98 depending on DOS call of it kernel, not old 16 bit Windows calls, something even much older that this!!!, the old 8086 with only 1 MB memory.

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote - It's the same thing with running 16 bit processes under 32 bit windows; the operating system handles all the necessary mode switches automatically. Probably the main reason that 64 bit windows can't handle 16 bit code is probably because the added complexity it would entail isn't worth it, considering that 16 bit is about as obsolete as it gets.

64 bit CPU can switch to 16 bit mode or even DOS mode, Microsoft only want to force people that still are using Windows 3.1 or DOS applications to trash these applications and purchase a new fresh and if possible MIcrosoft product.
There are many DOS and Windows 3.1 applications that still are used and there's no need to upgrade them, they are working fine, fulfill their purpouse and are integrated into standart procedures.

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote - There have been cases of published software, by major vendors, having viruses. There are also other attacks (such as buffer-overflow attacks) which do not require the user to initiate the remote execution. Also, the level of lock-down required to avoid all possible methods of insertion of viruses is sufficiently draconian that it is infeasable for most home users.

There is a lot of mythology, urban legends, propaganda and the real story is never published.
You must look at the common and usual causes of the virus infection and not theorical and hypothetical causes.
Always exist the possibility that a purchased CD of some company has been infected by a virus, but how much is the probability to happen????
The probability to happen is so remote that is very more probable to your computer be destroyed by a thunder or fire than by an infected published software purchased in a legal way.
The buffer underflows are very dubvious and this story was never explained. With all my professional experience I am not able to understand how a buffer underflow or overflow, beside causing malfunction to the program, can install a virus. The real story must be very different.
Bugs exist, but bugs are not the cause of virus infection of millions of users.
You must look at the source of millions of infections and not some cause that only happens one in a million.
You vist a site and your computer is infected and of course only if you use IE, it's not a bug of IE, it's a feature of IE.
Microsoft have created all the tools needed for companies and Microsoft itself install any kind of spywares into your computer using IE. You don't get a spyware without your knowledge using Firefox, no matter of all the bugs reported of Firefox. Spyware without your knowledge only happens with IE, it's not a bug, it's a feature!
Of course, if a company has the tools to install a spyware into your computer, any one that hacks a site or create a malicious site is able to install a virus in your computer instead of a spyware.
Spyware and virusware are almost the same!!!
Some people can get his computer infected after clicking on an attachment of a received email "blondejoke.exe", but most of the people get infected by only receiving and email through Outlook, you don't need to click on "blondejoke.exe", Outlook does this task for you without your knowledge!
These are not bugs, these are features. Once some virus attacked millions and more millions using these "features" then appears the typical story, a bug was found and a security patch is released, you must install the patch, but what the patch does is not remove an inexistent bug, the patch only removes a feature and more probably only change how the feature must be used, so this existent virus cannot attack your computer, but a new virus will be able to do it using the new way of using the same feature and the story repeats one more time and another patch and it goes forever......

Tell me, if Microsoft is able to change or update your Windows and Vista will be the master of watching what you are doing and changing your software, why some another site cannot do the same, watch what you are doing and install any spyware, virus, bank account tracking software, trojan. The malefic site only need to cheat your computer making believe that is speaking with Microsoft itself and the gates of Hell are open.
It's not a bug, it's a feature......

Stupidity also evolves!

Uhm, segmentation was the memory model used in Win3.x (and Mac OS 9 and lower). Win32 uses paging, as do Linux, Mac OSX, WinXP 64 and Vista.
So the claim that going from 32 bit to 64 bit wasn't all that difficult is just plain true. There's no reason to believe that Vista and XP64 are not fully 64 bit - it is actually more work to create a scheme to allow a 32 bit system to address more than 4 GB than to port it to full 64 bit.

Windows 95, 98 and Millenium were NOT true 32 bit operating systems. Part of their core still depended on the 16 bit segmentation scheme, other parts used 32 bit paging.

Windows 2000, XP and later are all based on the NT 3.51 system, which is not derived from DOS (as many Windows haters believe) but from Vax VMS. NT 3.51 has been 32 bit paging from its very start..

So about rewriting the segmentation code: it has already been done. Many years ago.

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*The possibility exists that a purchased CD of some software company has been infected by a virus, but how much is the probability of it to happen?

*I don't have statistics, but it sure happened to me! Long time ago, DOS age, PC Tools 6.1. The original disk contained a very nasty boot sector virus.

Why that Microsoft hatred? They're a very rich company, sure. Why are they rich? Why is Windows the most used operating system by far?
Because MS made some very clever marketing moves in the past. Because DOS and later Windows were the only viable operating systems for quite some time (Mac being far too expensive, Linux being far too user unfriendly, and Unix being both too expensive AND too user unfriendly).

Some people seem to believe that everything that's worng in the software world should be blamed on Microsoft. Wake up! Ever heard why Oracle bought the InnoDB database engine? Not because they needed a transactional storage engine - their own storage engine is better than InnoDB. No, they wanted to blow MySQL out of the water by denying it a transactional engine - MySQL was eating into their profit.
And what did Microsoft do? They released MSDE, a free database engine, as a competitor to MySQL. Better in some regards (fully ANSI-92 compliant, fast transactional engine), less in others (not cross-platform, database size limited to 2 GB, no clustering).
But of course, it's Micosoft, so it's evil. And what Oracle did is not evil, because Oracle is not Microsoft.
(By the way, that InnoDB move bit Oracle on the ass in a big way)

Security? Why is Linux more secure than Windows? The average Linux user is far more computer savvy than the average Windows user, and knows how to protect his system and prevent malware from coming in.
Script kiddies know this. Their target is the unknowing Windows user - there's loads of unknowing Windows users - to maximize the impact of their vandalism. About the same goes for the Mac - there are too few Macs around to be an interesting target for the Internet hooligans. If and when the popularity of Mac or Linux grows to the current level of popularity of Windows, those systems WILL be interesting targets, and I am sure the security of those systems will be breached on a regular basis.

Not supporting OpenGL out of the box is a bad move however. And I'm fairly sure MS will fix that soon. Many popular games are developed as cross-platform, and those games invariably use OpenGL - and an operating system that can't run those games is not going to sell very well.

Ah well. I run XP Pro 64 bit, and I like it. Pretty secure too, my logs tell me that I get an automated attack on my IP address about once a week. Nothing has ever gotten through.

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Quote - So about rewriting the segmentation code: it has already been done. Many years ago.

Segmentation is used, SS, DS, ES, FS and GS segments are used, in 32 bit the segments are not used in the same way in the 16 bit mode.
In 16 bit mode the segment register was added shifted to the 16 bit address creating a 32 bit address.
In 32 bit the segments are not used for the generation of the address, they are used as a pointer for the table descriptors that stores the base address and size of the memory block pointed by the segment register.
In 64 bit there's not segment descriptor table, the segments CS, DS, SS, and ES are ignored and assumed to have the value zero.
Probably as a favour to Microsoft, AMD and Intel made FS and GS segments still usable, without them would be impossible to Windows launch any program!!!!!

Stupidity also evolves!

If you debug any 32 bits Windows code you will find that the value of CS (code segment), SS (stack segemnt) and DS (data segment) are different.
If you trace your program when it performs a function call to a Window's DLL the value or CS, SS and DS are different and they change many times within the Windows fuction call processing.
Inside Windows DLL calls of the form CALL SEGMENT:ADDRESS or absolute gotos JMP SEGMENT:ADDRESS are very used.
Segments are used in Windows 32 and how often it are used!!!

Stupidity also evolves!

That's because, well, code, stack, and data are usually, well, 'segmented'. This isn't 'segmented memory', this is segmented static program execution space. The code sections are placed into their own memory areas. A developer doesn't actually have to do this - you can put the code and data segments together for instance - but the stack is usually kept separate as it also maintained by the system pointer (activation frame of the running code). See "Memory as a Programming Concept in C and C++", pp. 14-16).

You are confusing code segments with memory segmentation - these are two different things. One allows code to be loaded into memory so as to 'appear' contiguous, the other allows limited memory address capability to be fooled into thinking it can address more (with those segment registers).

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

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I was talking about virtual memory schemes: segmentation schemes vs paging schemes.
In the segmentation schemes used by Windows 3.x and Mac OS 9 and lower, the onus of marking a segment as "code" or "data" fell to the programmer, allowing for some devious loopholes - a programmer could mark code as data or the other way around. Made for a lot of "quick and VERY dirty" applications, including malware.
Combined with the cooperative multitasking scheme this made for an inherently unstable and unsafe OS. Windows 16 bit suffered heavily from this. Mac OS 9 and lower too, to a lesser degree, since Apple has far more control over Mac software than Microsoft does over Windows software.
The paging virtual memory scheme (hardware supported since the 386 CPU - and I think the Motorola 68030) takes this responsibility away from the programmer. The hardware also does the job of mapping the virtual address to the physical address, the OS has nothing to do with it.
Only the page file is handled by the OS. Linux puts the page file on a separate partition, which is a better solution than the Windows one (which wants to put the page file on the system drive. You can change the location of the page file though).

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Quote - I find it very interesting how everyone is already slating Vista, saying 'XP works fine, so I won't upgrade!'

Well, I have to say - XP is the best, most stable operating system I've used so far, so I can't argue with anyone who says they won't upgrade to a 'buggy', needless OS designed to line the pockets of Bill Gates.

However, don't forget we all said the same about Windows XP when I came out!!!

How wrong we were!

Apart from the security. That was naff.

I totally agree. I got XP because I'm self employed and somehow got a copy of it because of that when MS was handing out copies for like $35.00 to business folks that had the link to the page where this offer was being offered. Who could refuse that? Not I so Win2000 Pro was taken to work were it is the OS there now and XP Pro became my OS at home. Don't regret that move one bit. It's a legal copy as I called MS to make sure it was on the up and up. I've never been so happy with an OS.

I have no intention in switching platforms but now that MAC can run on an Intel platform that's no excuse but the fact that there are so many little apps that I use on a regular basis that the MAC platform does not have (like Irfanview) I just assume stay with XP Pro and keep watching the progress of Vista.

I would be lying if I said I wasn't interested but I would be a fool to jump on board this early in the game too. I have just built myself a new box in December and while it's supposedly Vista compatible I will wait for the next urge to build a another system for myself and THEN Vista will hopefully have it's bugs worked out and I'll go for it. Until then? XP Pro works just fine for me with nary a problem to bitch about.

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Quote - Not supporting OpenGL out of the box is a bad move however. And I'm fairly sure MS will fix that soon. Many popular games are developed as cross-platform, and those games invariably use OpenGL - and an operating system that can't run those games is not going to sell very well.

I agree with most of what you said, but i will just point out that MS froze OpenGL support long back. The last OpenGL lib MS released is at v1.1. Everything after that (current OGL version is at 2.x) is not from MS, but from display card chip vendors, mainly nVIDIA and ATI. This is very different from DX, where MS provide the libs and the display cards support those libs... In OGL's case, the card vendors have to code and provide the libs themselves. This is true even for XP.

This is also the main reason why there are so many issues with pro OGL apps and some cards (like ATI) because they implement the OGL standard differently then nVIDIA and nVIDIA having more clout in the pro market with its quadro cards has more support from CG app vendors. This is again very different from DX. In a DX app/game, no matter what card you use as long as it supports a particular version of DX, you will get all the features of that DX version. There may be performance differences of course, but never feature differences. In OGL however it is common to have some cards supporting some features while others support others (the so called OGL extensions) All due to there not being one standard implementation of OGL like there is for DX.

One benefit of this though is that MS cant stop OGL from being supported under Vista, since they have nothing to do with it in the first place. As long as nVIDIA or ATI release drivers that support OGL, games using it will run, regardless of OS.

More I read, more bigger are my doubts if XP64 or Vista64 runs under 64 bit mode.
FACT #1
All the Wndows DLL function calls are performed by means of the instruction CALL SEGMENT:ADDRESS
FACT #2
The instruction CALL SEGMENT:ADDRESS is invalid in 64 bit mode.
CONSEQUENCE #1
Windows 32 bit applications cannot run under 64 bit mode.
Ok, there's no problem, CPU64 has a 32 bit compatible mode to run 32 bits apps.
Until now is fine, it's only a question to switch on a task basis between 32 and 64 bits modes.
CONSEQUENCE #2
The Windows DLL functions calls for a 64 bits application cannot be done in the same way as function calls from a 32 bits application.
Now it gets complicated, you must have 32bit DLLs and the same DLL in 64 bit version.
Not only you must have all the DLLs duplicated, you must have all the VXD and SYS (rootkit) duplicated!!!!
SOLUTION #1
Don't allow to XP64 or Vista64 run 32 bit applications, only you can use for 64 bits apps.
Also MIcrosoft has to create from zero all the needed DLLs and components, no way to patch an old 32 bit DLL for the job.
SOLUTION #2
Duplicate all the Windows, now you must have two Windows, one 32 bit and one 64 bit running at the same time with the consequent inneficiency and slowness.
The same problem as #1, all 64 bits DLLs must be created.
SOLUTION #3
No 32 bit DLLs only 64 bit as solution #1 with the same problems.
The DLLs will run under 64 bit mode, any function call from a 32 bit applications will be traped by call gates or invalid opcodes faults and then the request translated to the correct 64 bit form that can be handed by the 64 bit DLL.
The result will be a very slow 32 bit application.
SOLUTION #4
Don't do anything or almost anything, let the 32 bit DLL continue to exist, create some new function calls that allow 64 bit pointers to retrieve memory bigger than 4 GB, run all in 32 bit compatible mode with extended memory range and tell the users that is Windows 64.
If they did the same with Windows 3.1 with 32 bit mode, the story continued in a less degree with Win95 and Win98. Only Windows 2000 become really a 32 bit Windows, so why cannot do the same with XP64 or Vista64???

Stupidity also evolves!

gad..I remember loading punch cards in a sorter back in the 80s...;) I learned enough programming (Cobol, RPG II [the language, not the rocket launcher..;], Assembler) to learn I never want to be a programmer..;) All it's given me is lost hours of my life, and rotten spelling (ask an old programmer about spelling sometimes..;)

I'd have to check my notes (been studying about 5 different OS's at work, so I get confused, as they say in Sin City..;), but I seem to remember 64-bit OS's don't work with 16 bit code.

I have Win 2k on my machine, works like a champ, so far..;) Can't use my old games (Duke Nukem 3, Descent 1&2, Heretic, etc), but on the other hand, I can't load the latest version of Daz Studio (missing C++ files, dlls, etc, but I hardly expect any sympathy in this forum..;) So it looks like I'm in the middle.

I'll have to upgrade eventually (my system's about 3 years old), but I'll wait until the last possible moment..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Quote - but I seem to remember 64-bit OS's don't work with 16 bit code.

With mainframes the story is rather different, the old ferrite core memory IBM /360 was a 64 bit machine.
Burroughs machines were 48 bit and the machine language and instructions was Algol and not Assembler!. Compatibility between different models was on base on the source code and not the executable code. For running an application you have to compile, link and run all in a batch process, even you assigned all the resources that will be used by your application.
The question of 16 bit or 32 or 64 bit code is the result of the evolution of microprocessors that started with 4 bits and now we have 64 bit, 40 years after the mainframes had it!!
As the executable code is all not the same for any new microprocessor and the compabibilty is not based on source code, secret, profit, copyrights, even more profits, the only way to a new processor or OS to be compatible with old applications, the hardware needs some switching code mechanism and the OS must support this.
Without the compatibilty the sales of new computers would be very limited. Nobody would purchase a new computer if all the software that he has cannot run on it. It's not only a question of all the money needed to purchase all the new required software, many times the software that you have doesn't exist a newer version for a newer hardware.
Imagine if Poser7 would not be able to run on 64 bit computers, you would never have purchased an AMD64 or Intel64 until the day where Poser 8 would be released, and who knows when it will be, neither you don't know when the first patch of Poser7 will be!

Stupidity also evolves!

http://www.ubuntu.com/

My husband has assured me that if I switched from XP to Ubuntu, he will help me get everything I use in Windows functioning in Linux.

I tell you, it's looking better and better every day.

Need more companies to take on MS for an OS. More competitions, less costs.

Wow .... what an interesting thread.

I'm of the "if it ain't broke, I'm not going to try to fix it, much less buy a new one" school of thought.

All my programs are running just fine on my current system (XP), so I will not be switching to Vista (or whatever comes after Vista) until that situation changes.

By then, I hope all the bugs are worked out and everything I need to run ... runs.

As for Mac? No thanks .... not that it's not a lovely machine and all, but I'm the sort of person that likes to build my machines from parts. I like to pick out my case, add a ton of RAM and storage and overclock the bugger. Everytime I talk to someone at the Apple Store (where I go for my iPod stuff), they point out that you can't just go purchase "parts" and start modding a Mac.

Now, if there ever change that approach .... I might just think about it.

Could be worse, could be raining.

Sigh... I know it's just a dream and it will never, ever happen... but OH for a Linux version of Poser!

It's the only piece of software that keeps me tied to Microsoft. I'm running Ubuntu Linux on my other machines, and loving it.

Quote - I saw an article today that recommended not upgrading, but only using vista on a new machine that comes with it already installed. the price seems to range from $99 u.s. to $400 or more, for various versions.

My new computer mistakingly arrived with Vista installed instead of XP Pro. I don't like it at all! It's slow and sluggish and seems to pause. Not to mention all of those stupid pop up windows asking for permission to open program message windows. Very annoying. I will be reinstalling XP Pro in the next day or two.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

From everything I've read, I don't think I'll be upgrading any of the machines here. When they are replaced, I supposed they'll come with Vista, but that won't be happening very soon. Unfortunately. My wife and one of my daughters have some truly ancient computers. Oh, well.

It doesn't matter how much Vista is bad, people will "upgrade" their computer to Vista, have their live even worst than with XP, will need to upgrade their computer to something better because their quad core is too slow, have Poser's rendering crash (if able to start Poser) and though, blame E-Frontier, have their computer data destroyed with Virus and blame the hackers, their SATA driver go to space and blame the HD fabricant, pay monthly the anti-virus service to Microsoft and blame the hackers again, try to play some game and then blame the video card fabricant and ..........
But in the end, all they will say "Vista is the best Windows ever made and I never had any problem with Vista"

Why do you think that Billy Gates is so rich?, he is a genius for making money!!!!!

Stupidity also evolves!

I'm beginning to think that Microsoft are starting to operate in similar way to AOL several years ago. Back in the day, an AOL account didn't connect you to the internet: it connected you to AOL. You saw the sites that AOL allowed you to see, and it was all very safe and secure - but your access to the wealth of knowledge that the internet presented was severely restricted. It was popular because it was aimed at a user base of people who didn't know a lot about computers, which at the time was most people. Microsoft are kind of like that now. A Vista user will use Windows Firewall to regulate internet traffic (and thus, potentially, what they can and can't see), Windows AntiVirus subscription & Windows Defender for spyware (as opposed to 3rd party apps - so much for the Internet Explorer anti-trust case), User Protection to regulate which executables they can run, and so on. DRM (coupled with hardware protection - and I thought Palladium had been dropped) will decide what DVDs, CDs, MP3s, etc. you are allowed to enjoy. In short, Microsoft are catering to a group who want to be mollycuddled, who don't want to have to think about security issues and would much rather that Microsoft handle all of that hassle (the kind of lazy attitude, incidently, that instantly makes your computer infinitely more vulnerable). Microsoft want Vista users to live in a Microsoft world, where everything that they do - gaming, web browsing, multimedia, etc. - is done through Microsoft means and under Microsoft control. The difference I see with AOL is that AOL were a genuine innovator: there really was a market for computer newbies, whilst a lot more people are lot more computer savvy today. AOL was the first to use a GUI for its internet access, gave away free copies of its software to advertise and encourage growth of the online communication sector, and generally helped move the technological world forward (albeit in a very different fashion to, say, CompuServe). But Windows Vista is different: Vista tells the user that they can do less with their computer today than they could yesterday. It is, ultimately, a step backwards. It encourages peole to be ignorant about computers, and ultimately stagnates technological interest, and thus progress. Don't get me wrong: Windows has generally been a revelation. Windows XP is an extremely good operating system, beaten only by a few Apple Mac OS's, and it far and away the best OS for the PC. But Vista stinks. Making DirectX 10 exclusive to Vista, hoping to lock people in to the DRM at the same time, stinks. Dropping support for existing, stable and efficient 3rd party standards in favour of its own new, untried standards, stinks.

All you need is in Microsoft Vista Office, if it is not in Office then you don't need it.
If Vista Office crash in your computer you must purchase a new Vista compliant computer and an Office upgrade from Microsoft.
If Vista Office refuse to work again, your license have expired and you must purchase a new license from Microsoft.
You must be happy, you are a priviledged Microsoft user! (don't forget to pay the monthly fees)

Stupidity also evolves!

XPpro SP2 here on the workhorse, not connected to the Internet. No updates necessary, no virusscanner, nothing. I turned it all off and uninstalled all MS apps I could (messenger, paint,...) and reentered Wordpad to write some text.

The Internet? A cheap, older laptop with everything you need: free virus scan, free firewall, Spybot S&D,...
Data are transfered via a cruzer mini stick, no network (no, thank you!).
Should there ever be a serious problem, then everything is restored to default with the acompanying CD. No serial for XPhome necessary.

Never had any problems.
O, Vista you say? No, thanks. I'm happy with what I have. And in case of real trouble, I still have Win2K to which I can return. Everything work in it, and it does not have to be activated.

Can you run xp32 and xp64 on the same system? I haven't set up a dual boot system in years anyone know where to find the steps to do this?
Thanks
Marque

XP32 and XP64 as dual boot on the same system: can be done, my render station is set up that way.
First install XP32, then install XP64 on its own partition.
I installed Poser on a third partition. One Poser installation, can be run from both XP32 and XP64. Same goes for Vue5 Infinite.

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Quote - Need more companies to take on MS for an OS. More competitions, less costs.

There's the old saying: "It's the software stupid". The main reason why PC's running windows are so ubiquitous and make up the vast majority of all (home) computer systems, despite other platforms being arguably superior from a technical standpoint.

Right now the only platform that runs Poser, Bryce, Carrara, and all my games is Windows, so I'm stuck using that. I have an AMD64 processor, but I'm stuck on a 32 bit system because support for XP64 blows (probably intentionally), and I'm not going anywhere near Windows Virus-ta.

Maybe once ReactOS is stable enough to be used as an everyday system Micro$oft will finally get smart if they want to continue to be able to market Windows to anyone other than the most technologically illterate of computer users.

Hm. I run XP64 on an AMD64x2. No problems at all.
Driver support for XP64 isn't perfect, to say the least. My system is all out nVidia, which certainly helps - nVidia has good solid XP64 drivers for both their chipsets and graphics.

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Quote - More I read, more bigger are my doubts if XP64 or Vista64 runs under 64 bit mode.

As much as I wouldn't put it past Microsoft to try something stupid like that, what you are talking about is not possible.

Quote - FACT #1
All the Wndows DLL function calls are performed by means of the instruction **CALL SEGMENT:ADDRESS
**

I am pretty sure that that is NOT the case, as far procedure calls are privileged instructions and cannot be executed in user mode.

Functions in a DLL are loaded into the process's address space at runtime, and are accessible just like any other. call address works the same way whether or not what is located at address was loaded into memory when the program was loaded by the operating system, or later on as the result of loading a DLL.

The reason that a 64 bit program cannot link to a 32 bit DLL (and vice versa) is that you can't combine 32 and 64 bit code within the same process (as the processor can only be running in one mode at a time, and that mode can only be switched from ring 0.

Certain DLL's would have to exist in both 32 and 64 versions, but they can easily be compiled both from the same source code, changing only compiler options.

Pretty much the extent of 16 bit code still seen today is in installer stubs that inspect the operating system environment; and where it detects the operating system is only 16 bit (i.e., DOS or Windows 3.1, informs the user that the application requires a 32 bit version of windows, and exits). Including 16 bit support as well would just make the operating system even larger, and for no appreciable benefit. (People may cry "forced upgrade", but anyone who is still actually using 16 bit apps for anything probably isn't going to be upgrading to Vista, and probably isn't even using XP either).

Windows 95, 98 and ME used a trick called "thunking" to interoperate 16 bit and 32 bit code.
But those operating systems were only partially 32 bit. Much if it was no more than a glorified graphical shell around MS-DOS 7.0

The NT derived operating systems, including Windows 2000 and XP, have always been true 32 bit and don't support thunking. I had to ditch or upgrade quite a few DOS and Windows 3.x applications when I switched to Windows 2000.

XP64 comes with a 32 bit emulator (WOW, Windows-on-Windows). Fairly efficient, 32 bits programs run only marginally slower under WOW than under native XP 32 bit. WOW itself is a 64 bit application.

*Certain DLLs would have to exist in both 32 and 64 versions

*They do. svchost and rundll for example.

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Quote - Hm. I run XP64 on an AMD64x2. No problems at all.
Driver support for XP64 isn't perfect, to say the least. My system is all out nVidia, which certainly helps - nVidia has good solid XP64 drivers for both their chipsets and graphics.

I seem to remember something not working properly when I tried XP64 (the trial version). It was awhile ago, and things might have improved.

Actually, if I remember correctly, the problem was with antivirus software.

Quote - I am pretty sure that that is NOT the case, as far procedure calls are privileged instructions and cannot be executed in user mode.

Far procedure calls aren't priviledged instructions, there are very few priviledged instructions such as that deal with the descriptor tables and mode switching.
All DLL function call are made by a far call.
Just compile the simple code
WinMain(......)
{
MessageBox(0,"","User32 DLL call",0);
return 0;
}
And take a look how the User32 DLL function MessageBox is called and you will find that is :
CALL 0000:0000
The 0000:0000 address will be relocated to the right segment:address once loaded into memory, if you want to see the real call address just take a memory dump of what is loaded in your Windows memory.

Stupidity also evolves!

You can run Mac OS X x86 on a pc. Follow the links to be Vista free on a pc. :)
www.uneasysilence.com/archive/2005/08/3937/ www.uneasysilence.com/os-x-proven-hacked-and-running-on-an-ordinary-pc
Buy the software btw !

*You can run Mac OSX on a PC

*Hardly surprising. Mac OSX was developed on PC. The BSD kernel has been available for PC for several years.

Apple doesn't WANT Mac OSX to run on PCs though, for several reasons. First of all, they want to sell the accompanying hardware too. Second, Apple has no control whatever over the configuration of a PC, while they have absolute control over Mac configurations. This control makes it much easier for Apple to make their OS work smoothly.

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I thought I'd try it since I recently got a new Mac, and was very impressed with its speed. You wouldn't believe how fast the Pentium 4 pc I tested it on ran. It wasn't equal to the Mac of course, but it was certainly much faster than it was using Linux, or XP.

kawecki - Did you disassemble the resulting binary correctly? Some disassemblers default to 16 bit unless you specify otherwise. (also what operating system are you running under?)

There is no need for far procedure calls under Win32, as everything fits under the linear 4 GB address space in a single segment. Segmentation doesn't even extend the address space because you are still limited to a 32 bit linear address. (under 16 bit, segmentation was the only way to address memory past 64K, which was too small an amount even way back when. 8086 real mode calculated the linear address by segment * 16 + offset; the 80286 allowed up to 16 MB of physical RAM to be addressed, but only in segments of 64 K. The 386 extended the address space up to 4 GB and added 32 bit mode as well. From the 386 onward, the maximum segment size for 32 bit mode was the same as the linear address space).

Furthermore, in protected mode, the privilege level is determined by the code segment selector. Being able to call into another segment could allow a process to elevate its privilege level, which is a clear no-no.

Besides, all this would result in a great increase in complexity which is simply not necessary. Simply mapping a DLL into the address space of a process that wants to load it is all that is needed.

It is also not possible to extend the address space past 4GB under 32 bit mode, as linear addresses are 32 bits, period. There is something called PAE (physical address extensions), which has existed for awhile that allows for up to 64 GB of physical RAM to be installed in a system, though any one process is still limited to addressing 4GB of that.

64 bit systems don't use the entire 64 bit address space (yet). I think that Vista only uses 40 bits of it, for up to 1 TB of addressable memory per process (an amount unlikely to be exceeded in Vista's operational lifetime).

Ok.....I skipped SP2 because of the issues that their "security" mess was causing about half the people I know. I use Zone Alarm, Trend Micros antivirus and Ad Aware SE Plus for spyware capture. I am thinking of getting Vista at some point, but do want to hear from those who have Vista: Does Poser and Vue work on it or not? I know DAZ Bryce 6 does. Aside from the interesting UI, what are the benefits? I have an AMD Athlon 64; 2 gigs ram and an ATI Raedon 9800.

Benefits ? I guess the main one is DX 10 if you wanna play the latest games (none are out as yet tho) Also Vista does have a few tricks that will speed up performance over XP, esp if you have lots of RAM and multiple cores. Besides that, when they get around to fixing Vista 64, then that will also become a benefit.

Personally I wouldn't suggest changing to it as yet. Wait till they are up to SP1 or SP2 and Vista 64 has been worked on. I would say, probably an year.

You can read more about all this here:

http://www.anandtech.com/systems/showdoc.aspx?i=2917

Quote - kawecki - Did you disassemble the resulting binary correctly? Some disassemblers default to 16 bit unless you specify otherwise. > Quote -

The opcode for a call segment:16bit is different from call segment:32bits.
The sample code can be so small that you can even can disassemble it by hand with a text editor. The only problem is to find where WinMain starts because the compiler adds a prolog and an epilog.
You will find that the function call in this case MessageBox is a two steps call, first is done a normal relative call to the end of the code where you find a list of far calls in the form segment:32 bit address.
All function calls of the same function points to the same far call, so it is only needed to relocate the values at the end of the code.
Not all the disassemblers generate this last part of the code, but you can find where it is and disassemble this fraction of code or just look at the hexadecimal values.

Quote - (also what operating system are you running under?)

Depend on the disassembler that you use, they are many for DOS, Win16 or Win32. You can disassemble 32 bit code under DOS, the only problem is that DOS has problems with large size code, but for some few hundreds there's no problem.
Do you know some disassembler runing under Linux?

Quote - There is no need for far procedure calls under Win32, as everything fits under the linear 4 GB address space in a single segment.

Yes, I know that there's no need, but this is the way as Windows works!!!! as it was in the old Windows 3.0.
If Windows worked different there would be no needs for relocation!!!

Quote - Segmentation doesn't even extend the address space because you are still limited to a 32 bit linear address.

Yes it does, you can address with segmentation a 40 bit address space, but each segment can have only 4GB size maximum.
With CPU64 this 40 bit address space was extended to 48 bits and not to 64 bit as you think.
Probably in the next following years the new CPUs will extend this 48 bits to 64 bits.

Quote - (under 16 bit, segmentation was the only way to address memory past 64K, which was too small an amount even way back when. 8086 real mode calculated the linear address by segment * 16 + offset; the 80286 allowed up to 16 MB of physical RAM to be addressed, but only in segments of 64 K.

The Intel 8086 used a very primitive segmenting system without any kind of segment management, they only added addresses with the segment data shifted with a stupid 4 bit shift. 80286 added a more intelligent 8 bit shift.
Motorola 68000 was built from the begining with 32 bit registers and a 4GB address space, even it was a 16 bit processor!!
Zilog Z8000 used an intelligent segment management as used in the next decade 80386.
All these three CPU were built almost at the same time, I don't know if 8086 or 68000 was the first. IBM picked the worst processor of these three and it was even worst because they used 8088 that was a 8 bit bus version of the 8086 (16 bit bus).

Quote - Furthermore, in protected mode, the privilege level is determined by the code segment selector. Being able to call into another segment could allow a process to elevate its privilege level, which is a clear no-no.

In Windows all your code and all the DLLs run at the same priviledge level. Only in Windows XP were added some functions that can run only in the supervisor mode, but if you login as supervisor your almost all run in the same level. The only thing that you cannot access are the descriptor table (I suppose, maybe it can be done too!).
The 30386 ++++++, provided a lot of security tools, but almost none is used by Windows and you can access all you want.

Quote - 64 bit systems don't use the entire 64 bit address space (yet)

Only it is 48 bits.

Quote - . I think that Vista only uses 40 bits of it, for up to 1 TB of addressable memory per process (an amount unlikely to be exceeded in Vista's operational lifetime).

Exactly the same limit as for 32 bit processors!!!!

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote - Exactly the same limit as for 32 bit processors!!!!

No it isn't. The limit for 32 processors is 4GB. Even a 16 bit segment and a 32 bit offset still translates to a 32 bit linear address.

Segment and offset was a scheme used before 80386. After 80386 the segment has no information of the linear address, it is used as pointer to the segment table where is stored the segment base address, the segment size and the segment properties.
For accessing memory the processor adds the memory offset to the segment base address.
The offset is 32 bit, but if the CPU segment descriptor has the base address as a 40 bit register you are able to access a maximum of 4 GB located anywhere in a 40 bit address space.
How do you think that Windows XP32 is able to use virtual memory beyond 4 GB????

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote - Benefits ? I guess the main one is DX 10 if you wanna play the latest games

Want to play games?, buy a Sony Playstation 3 and forget all the Microsoft crap.
It will cost you less than the computer required to run Vista and you will be able to play real 3D games and not the crappy DX and no blue screens.......

Quote - I thought I'd try it since I recently got a new Mac, and was very impressed with its speed. You wouldn't believe how fast the Pentium 4 pc I tested it on ran. It wasn't equal to the Mac of course, but it was certainly much faster than it was using Linux, or XP.

Linux depend on the version and package. Linux is not something as Windows that you install an run (after several tries).
There exist many pre-made packages that you install and run, but I found some that are so slow that cannot be used, all depend on how the package was made and compiled.
Linux is the most versatile and can be the faster Operational System that exist, but it requires a lot of work and knowledge to build something efficient.
Linux is formed by several components. The Linux kernel is so small that it fits in one old 1.44M diskette!!
When you load the Linux kernel you have the operational system, but no grafic interface, only keyboard. Now you need a graffic package such as X11, X12 (don't know the latest one), you have different versions, different compilations and different machine specific optimization.
One loaded the graffic package you are able to run Linux programs, but you have no Windows, you run your application from the keyboard.
To have Windows to have to install a Windows package, but the Windows package is not as in Microsoft Windows or Mac, it is only a component and you can have any Windows that you like and switch between them in the act. You can have a Windows 98 style, a XP style, a Mac style, a Unix style and as many as you can find. (I liked KDE).
It remain to pickup the libs (Linux DLLs) needed to run applications, find them somewhere, install and put them to work.
The result can be something very fast or something very slow. Many Linux components are built using scripting language as Pearl, and many times a script call another script, you cannot expect that something that is a script can run fast. If you want something fast you need a compiled version of the component.
Many Linux components are written in C++ and C++ once compiled is something very slow compared to plain C. Also Linux components are built based on using othe Linux component that is built itself using other Linux component, so the result is something so slow that can be easily compared to Microsoft..
If you have time and patience you can built the faster and most reliable software and even you will able to run Poser on it!!!

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote -
Want to play games?, buy a Sony Playstation 3 and forget all the Microsoft crap.
It will cost you less than the computer required to run Vista and you will be able to play real 3D games and not the crappy DX and no blue screens.......

Right.. and you think Sony is any better then MS why exactly ? If anything they are even worse, the way they keep trying to force their prop. formats down people's throats. Not to mention that rootkit fiasco a little while back or the viral marketing they are so fond of.

MS do lots of crappy things, but they are usually quite open about it all. They regularly release free betas and RCs of everything they dev so that people can rip it all apart and see exactly what is going on under the hood. Sony don't offer the same courtesy to even their paying customers.

Plus i have plenty of PC exclusive games i wanna play, and a high end gaming box. Why should i downgrade to a lousy PS3 ? Crysis, spore, dragon age to name just 3 are all 'must play' titles for me. I would never use Vista for my workstations, but i have no beef against it for my gaming.

Quote - Right.. and you think Sony is any better then MS why exactly ? If anything they are even worse, the way they keep trying to force their prop. formats down people's throats. Not to mention that rootkit fiasco a little while back or the viral marketing they are so fond of.

You are making confusion between Sony Japan and Sony BMG. Even Sony has adquired Columbia Pictures, Columbia Pictures preserve their autonomy and Sony Japan can do very little beside sufferering the damage caused to the reputation of the whole group.
Playstation is based on Linux, has nothing to do with RIAA , Hollywood or copyright paranoia.
My son has a Playstation 2 and the graffic performance and realism cannot be achieved by any newest PC game and it is an old playstation with only a 300 MHz CPU!!!
Playstation 3 is even much better, the only competitor that can have is Microsoft XBox but without tooo many success and general aceptance.

Stupidity also evolves!

I forgot, Japanese are the masters of 3D, but very few of what they have and do arrive to us.

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote - Sony Japan can do very little beside sufferering the damage caused to the reputation of the whole group.
Playstation is based on Linux, has nothing to do with RIAA , Hollywood or copyright paranoia.

I guess you never had the disk read issue because Sony shipped defective optical drives in the early PS2s. An issue which BTW Sony even refused to recognise, till a class action lawsuit was filed against them. All in all it took them till 2005, 3 years after the launch of their oh so amazing PS2, to finally do something. And don't even get me started on how they have shafted European customers of the PS3... I'm sorry to say this but, Sony are one the worst hardware companies in the world. They are over hyped, over bloated and very arrogant towards their customers. I don't care how bad MS is, Sony is in a league of their own.

Quote - My son has a Playstation 2 and the graffic performance and realism cannot be achieved by any newest PC game and it is an old playstation with only a 300 MHz CPU!!!
Playstation 3 is even much better, the only competitor that can have is Microsoft XBox but without tooo many success and general aceptance.

I'm not sure if you are kidding or not, but let me just point out that the PS3 is basically running a castrated nVIDIA 7800. A DX 9 card which is already 2 years old. Compare it to something like this:

http://www3.incrysis.com/screenshots/crysis-shack-ambush-alien-day.jpg

Which is Crysis, running under DX 10. Can you honesty say that any PS3 (much less PS2) game out there looks that good ?

Quote - I forgot, Japanese are the masters of 3D

That we can both agree on :)

DirectX is a total crap, OpenGL is only a good technical specification, but is oversized with a lot of useless things and lack of other important features. Remember that from a technical paper to the implementation is a giant step and the OpenGL implementation in Windows is another big crap.
The net result is that rendering is much slower and with restricted capabilities in the most advanced video card compared to pure software rendering without any hardware support.
Special hardware can make rendering faster, but never with the PC hardware that is very limited and not designed for this task. You need a special computer with a special hardware, no video cards, only a lot of chips with many busses, pipelines and data flow.

Stupidity also evolves!

Speaking about games, how much PC games have evolved?
If you look carefully you will find that most of PC games instead of have been improved they have degenerated.
If you look at some old DOS games and compare to today games you will find that the actual games looks very much better and the DOS game looks very primitive so you arrive to the conclusion that it was a great improvement, but in most cases is only an illusion.
If it is an illusion why it looks much better?, well if you look in detail you will find that the old game is using a 320x200 resolution with 256 colors. You cannot expect an image 320x200 be very good compared to a 800x600 or 1024x768 24 bit colors image!
If old games used 320x200 resolution used was not due a limit of the processor, game or rendering engine, it was due the fact that most computers had only a 256K VGA card!
You must remember that who makes a game must not design his game to be run in a top level computer (it would be a commercial fracass). He must design the game to be able to run in worst computer that is still common among users.
Most of who play games are teens or kids, you cannot expect them to have money to purchase a very expensive top level computer. Even the parents have money they will not purchase an expensive computer for they kids play games. In the best case they will purchase a new and top computer for themselves and give their old computer to the kids play games.
So in the end, most of who play games use old or very old computers and if the game maker doesn't support old computers his sales will be very little limited to only some adults that play games or some priviledged kids.

With time, video cards improved and you have a 1M SVGA card able to run at 640x480 of course at only 256 colors. The game looked much better than at 320x200, but it was not a improvement of the game or rendering engine.
Today at 800x600 with 24 bit looks much better that at 640x480 with 8 bits.
Another important point are the textures, as games use a lot of textures you cannot expect that a computer with only 4M memory would be able to load a lot of high resolution textures. With very low amount of available memory the textures used were very small, you cannot expect that a mesh textured with 100x50 pixels texture can look good and if you zoom or get near the mesh it becomes horrible.
With larger amount of memory available for computer it was possible to increase the size of textures used and so it were able to be more detailed.
In resume, what you see as an improvement is only result of the better capabilities of the new computers and not due the game itself. Take an old DOS game, you can try with DOOM or other where's the source code is available, create new larger size textures and compile the game to be run at 800x600 24 bit and compare it to the newest games with DX10 and an hyperexpensive video card.
If you compensate for the difference of video resolution and texture size you will find that most games had degenerated and are very much slower, so they need to be run in a several times faster computer with a 3D card to achieve to same overall speed.
The main reason of this is Windows, $$$$$ and profit over profit. There are several points:

1- Games doesn't need Windows, XP, XP64 or Vista to run. DOS32 is enough, don't know if someone did DOS64.
Very bad for Microsoft, no XP, no Vista and DOS32 was not made by Microsoft!!!

2- Games need only a normal 8M VESA 2 video card to be run at any current resolution.
Very bad for video card makers and Microsoft with his DirectX.

3- Games can be better with faster CPUs.
Excellent for Intel and AMD.

4- In the past each game maker had his own 3D rendering engine with much better performance that the current DX or OpenGL + 3D video card, but it had its $$$ drawbacks.
As any game maker must release games all the time and create new games he need people for the job. If the game maker use proprietary rendering engines, he need to hire people for making the games. So there's no way to find a person that knows how to use their engine, even he had worked in other game comapanies the rendering engines were different.
So the game maker needs to hire anyone that has no idea, train him and only after one year he will become able to be useful for making games. Also then the programmer becomes a specialised person and so, much expensive.
Many times is difficult to find the required people and so many games are not able to be released.
Here came Microsoft with the help, one hand wash the other. With DX was killed the better proprietary rendering engines and was created a standart engine that can be used by any game fabricant..
It is a win-win-lose solution.

The game maker can hire a cheap and easy available DX programmer or OpenGL if you prefer, if he becomes to expensive then hire one in India. Now the fabricant can make and release as many games he wants and no need for wasting time and money improving their proprietary rendering engines.
Video card makers can invent and release more video cards and you will be forced to purchase them.
Microsoft will force you to use Windows and if has success with DX10 will force you to use Vista.
As game becomes slower and much slower due the overall ineficiency, computer maker will force you to purchase a newer and faster computer for you be able to run the newes game.

And who lose?
Well....., the game player....

Stupidity also evolves!

All of which is totally irrelevant to what you originally claimed... So i will post your quote again:

Quote - "My son has a Playstation 2 and the graffic performance and realism cannot be achieved by any newest PC game and it is an old playstation with only a 300 MHz CPU!!!
Playstation 3 is even much better,

How about backing up your old claim first, before you make new ones ? If you cant do that, then i question your credibility and refuse to discuss this any further with you.

BTW the whole Crysis gallery is here :

http://incrysis.com/crysis/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=221&Itemid=32

Don't like Playstation?, don't buy it!
You can play games with Vista and DX10, it's your problem and not mine.

Stupidity also evolves!

Nothing wrong with PS2. A well designed game machine.

But it's not the uber-supergamecomputer kawecki is making it out to be. It's just a good one.

After all, a car with a 50 HP engine will never be able to outrun a car with a 1000 HP engine, no matter how well designed it is.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

I'd like to point out an inaccuracy in your post:

Quote - Most of who play games are teens or kids, you cannot expect them to have money to purchase a very expensive top level computer. So in the end, most of who play games use old or very old computers and if the game maker doesn't support old computers his sales will be very little limited to only some adults that play games or some priviledged kids.

This is from a 2005 ESA demographic study:

Heads of households that play video games: 75%

Average game player age: 30.
35.0% under 18 years
43.0% 18–49 years
19.0% 50+ years

Keep in mind this data is 2 years old. The average gamer age has been increasing internationally since the study was conducted. For example, in Australia 2005, the average gamer age was 24. In just two years, it has risen to 28. This type of increase is reflected in the U.S., U.K., Japan etc....

Since the average gamer is in their late twenties/early thirties, they have more buying power than kids and teens. Because they come from a generation who has grown up with video games and is far more comfortable with utilizing sophisticated technology and adopting newer ones than any previous generation, they are capable of making informed decisions about hardware purchases. They can afford to, and do purchase at least mid-range level hardware if not leading level hardware.

Your conclusion that "most of who play games use old or very old computers" because they're too young to afford anything better is inaccurate given the demographics.

Quote - After all, a car with a 50 HP engine will never be able to outrun a car with a 1000 HP engine, no matter how well designed it is.

I would like to see the face of the guy in his Audi when the light opens and my wife with her small car left him 100 meters behind.
I do the same, but she is a woman....
It's not a question how much something is powerful, it's a question how it is used.
You cannot compare computers with game machines, their design are very different.
Computers are general use machines, game machines are designed only to play games.
Game machines lack of the resources that computers have, but have a special hardware designed specifically for the task that makes them far superior for playing games.
You cannot compare a pinball machine to a PC, they don't use the top line Intel 64 bit quadcore, have no 250GB SATA drive, but their hardware is amazing in technical sophistication.
Even for 3D applications PC are not designed for this task, it lack of many resources, so any dedicated hardware will give far superior rendering performance and resources.

Quote - 43.0% 18–49 years

That's the problem with statistics, you cannot put 18 years old in the same group with who has 49 years.
At the age of 18 he/she is young, he is in school, probably not working and full of free time.
At the age of 35 he /she is adult, married, with children, working in a job , taking care of the family and very little time left free for playing games.
Games are very time consuming, I love RPG games, but they take a long time, so when I start playing a game I don't do anything else for some weeks!!!....
Not any adult person can do this. - Where is employee Joe? - He is at home playing games!

Stupidity also evolves!

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: MS Vista will not fully support OpenGl in Poser or any 3-D application.