Where our the Poser Renders not 2D Painted

The 100% only Poser Rendered no post work that you could set beside Royo,Boris,Michael,Leonardo and the Poser Renders be just as good as there's ?

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

To answer your question:

1. There aren't any such renders et, but the medium is still evolving.
2. Even Royo, Boris, Michael, and Leonardo did post work.  It's called 'Touching Up'.
   DPH

The majority my stuff i render but do no post work, apart from clearing up any joints on figures that look stupid, as some positions they dont pose well.
Or clone out any fault's that come through the render as if every thing go ok you dont need do any post work.

in reply when super computers cost under £500 when poser(whatever number) can handle 20 odd characters at the same time. that do ya

RorrKon, you could check TalonGE's gallery for his ZPWG (Zero Post Work Gallery) renders. 100% Poser. 
Maybe not Royo or Boris quality, but pretty well done.
Warning: big boobs in that gallery. Often uncovered.

I don't do postwork on my own renders. Not for some 'purity' reason, it's just that I prefer tweaking lights, shaders, composition and pose in 3D instead of 2D. 
For the last two years, I mainly render in Vue 5 (now 6). though sometimes I still use Poser to render. Most of my work is multicharacter in complex environemnts, at polycounts that Poser just can not handle.

And I can higly recommend looking at richardson's gallery. Top notch work IMO.

No postwork on mine (although that's simply from lack of any skill at it, not for much reason besides that).

Edit: damn, I wish I wasn't at work so I could properly ogle Richardson's gallery.

pjz99: you do some pretty cool stuff too! Had a look at your gallery, and I'm impressed.

Shucks! 

Need to dispel a fallacy. Boris, Julie, etc al...

The all paint by hand and have been doing so all along.

http://www.imaginistix.com/
http://luisroyo.com/
http://www.bromart.com/

No postwork is correct, though nothing is done in Poser. So this little push for no postwork and equating people with the masters is ridiculous at best.

My advice is master your tools. Learn about your cameras and lighting, etc... Find a style that you are comfortable with.

Do not listen to persons like the OP who seem to think that no postwork with equate a masterwork. A masterwork takes time, patience and discipline that many here do not seem possess.

I think we all know that they paint by hand :)  And I don't think anybody is comparing themselves to people with a 30 year dominance over the fantasy art world, or to the great classical masters of the past (certainly I am not).

I still want to see see the photos tarted up to look like renders... how do I find those!

"I still want to see see the photos tarted up to look like renders... how do I find those!"

You mean the gallery of the guy who photoshops pics and says they are Poser renders ?

Ii's amazing how gullible a lot of Poser people are.
If he had posted them over at CGTalk pretending them to be 3D, he would have been asked for a wireframe pic in a New York minute.

And then kicked out faster than you could say "photoshop".
:lol:  :lol:  :lol:

If Leonardo refers to da Vinci, he never did finish the "postork" on the Mona Lisa. You might say he was the pioneer in using Layers with that one. ;) And did the masters 'cheat'? Sure they did: forced perspective, farmed out the dull stuff to apprentices, plaster molds. Whatever it takes to get the image the way you want it is what you need to do. But you might want to take a peek over at CGTalk, where some brave artists take on the masters and come pret-ty darned close. ZhangYang84's Lady of Shallot (by Waterhouse) http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=121&t=450726 Rod Seffen's The Milkmaid (by Vermeer) http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=121&t=392228 Poswork is not good or bad, just another tool in the process.

Many of the classics were based on a cartesian point and grid system, some of them even had grid devices that they used to  guide them in their work--3D is essentially based on a cartesian as well.  It is manipulating objects in 3D space.  Art is evolving.  People doing strictly digital paintings, Corel Painter IX essentially a painting program and Photoshop even has been used to create completely digital paintings that emulate real world painting.

I think it depends on what the goal of a 3D artist is as to whether it's photorealism or a more traditional art media work.  Photorealism even employs post work and compositing.

If you think that people aren't using 3D tools to create art equivalent to Boris and others (you forgot Frazetta BTW), think again.  Pick up Digital Fantasy Art, Digital Horror Art, and Digital Sci Fi art--many of the works in those books are as good as if not better in some cases as pictures created with digital media.  The average reader who sees these illustrations would find it impossible to say they handn't been created with conventional media.   In fact there was a reproduction on this web site recently of  a Maxfield Parish picture that was almost indistinguishable from a real one.

svdl,pjz99 You all are a Royo, Boris in the no post work render field.

Vue's on my to get list.

svdl with 3000+ post ya can have a thumb now,hint hint ;)

I can't seem to find TalonGE's gallery ? Momma told me not to do drugs,I should have lesson ;)

Joe Publick

I like distal Steven's work,it's good.

I don't believe in misinforming about how you got ya art made.

Your right CGTalk has no problem in crucifying anyone that misses up.

Scanmead

I cruse the CGTalk,Society Galleries.

Killer stuff there.

C4D does not have a stock from.

Got in trouble there when a person posted I going to teach a how to model character class so how do you model characters ?

my response got me censored :(

witch I can see why thay did but I thought for a little while not forever.

thay go to far.

Natolii

Just where did this come from ?

Where did I say I was pushing for no postwork ?

Just Poser and Poser + 2D is two deferent medias,is it not ?

There's alot of killer Art that has 2D all threw it,I like 2D as long as it's good.

There is alot of so so just Poser Renders.

I want to know who is the Royo's and Boris's of Poser just Poser not Poser + 2D.

And specking on learning poser.

tons of responses on nude thumbs but few responses on skull caps.

it's hard to learn when everyone's to busy debating over nude thumbs to help.

In stead of telling everyone not to lesson to me why don't you help me get a A3 skull cap to work ?

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

it's possible to take a poser render and use photoshop to make it look like an human hand created it, to give it a "painterly look" (art critic jargon). that was the original intent of the guy who wrote the first few versions of poser, based on the hope that classicly-trained artists would find poser a good substitute for live models. but it changed into something else, and is now used almost entirely by folks who have never done any life-drawing, nor had a live nude (or clothed) human model posing for them. however, I don't think it's a good idea to single out anybody in the gallery for criticism, even if they ask for it. to me, at least, it's counterintuitive that somebody would want to say a photomanip is actually a poser render, as that's like heaping pelion upon ossa IMVHO.

RorrKon: here's a link to TalonGE's gallery: TalonGE
And thanks, I'm glad you like my work. I'm a hobbyist, I just try to improve on each image I make.

SOME of us, still use poser as an artists tool, to pose via a non live model.  That is after all what it was created for.

I am sorry, I can't help you, though poser IS used in my artwork, I would hardly call what i do "popping it in photoshop", to make it look like something it isn't.

It is what it is, Mixed Mediums.

Some can get extraordinary results in just poser alone.  TO them, hats off, I just don't use poser in that way.

Looked at digitalsteve's gallery.  Now, someone please tell me why it is a given that his images did not start out as Poser work??  Even if Poser was only used to produce the basic outline of the work ... why is there a supposition that the artist started with a photograph.

And, this may sound rather snarky, Joe Public,  but why should I take the word of someone who has never posted a single image of their own?  Why would I think you had enough knowledge of Poser, 3D or even 2D artwork to call another artist to task?  Short answer is that I wouldn't.  So, unless you plan to post some real evidence to back up your statements, I think I'd be better off just discounting them.

Mind you, there is nothing in digitalsteve's gallery that is to my taste, but his artistic technique is top notch ... no matter how he arrived at his finished product.

My advice is don't fence with Joe, he's going to start gushing dewdspeek at you and call you a noob and whatnot.  He has small hardware syndrome.  Just read around him.

Fence with him?  Not likely.  I am immune to dewdspeek and all other types of speek.  He can call me whatever he likes (I've certainly been called worse than "noob" ...), but I will ignore him just like I've ignored other people that I consider no better than trolls.

Mostly they are people who (1) have very few posts, (2) none of which add anything to the community discussions, and (3) haven't posted a single piece of artwork ... or sometimes (4) have posted something that shows them to be wannabes.

Small hardware syndrome?  I've seen a lot of that online.  People who shoot their virtual mouths off and then think that it's all good because they are anonymous.  Well, good luck with that .... I've seen enough of them get banned from sites like this for life.  And, good riddence.

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1271001&member

eferrier does a wonderful job in my opinion. I think this particular work of his would hold it's own in any gathering.

Ok, Joe, I removed the link in your post. If you have a complaint about a member please either Site Mail or Email one of the Poser Team members, and do not link to someones gallery.

And lets chill on the bordering personal attacks ok gang?

Thanks!

My bad!! 
Sorry jumpstartme2, I totally goofed and forgot the nudity advisory. :blushing:

No worries Cal

The Girl and the Snake is absolutely killer.

Don't ya think it even has a Boris feel to it.

Digital Steve render titled Mask has a Poser feel to it.

What I am asking is.

What I see alot here is.

1. a 10 second render that's not very good.

2.A nice render with textured hair & posed cloths.Some lighting is better then others.

Why isn't dynamic hair,cloth used alot ?

3.A Poser+2D.

There our some killer 2D Artist hear but This is not telling me what Poser can do.

it's telling me what 2D can do.I already know what 2D can do.

What I am asking is who has pushed Poser beyond it's limits

gotten killer renders = to Royo,Boris,Michael,Leonardo.

Michel showed us what eggs can do

Leonardo showed us what oils can do

etc etc

Need some one to show me what Poser can do.

cause if I could see these Renders then I would know what Poser can do.

and ask the Artist, how did ya do that ?

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

I think you're forgetting that we're talking about a piece of software that does have limitations when it comes to lighting (at the very least).
I'm not saying you can't get really good results, but I think Royo-esque is gonna be pushing it without postwork.

I tend to render a lot of stuff in Carrara, mainly because of the lighting.

I'm not saying copy a Royo perfectly and make it look just like Royo.

I don't think Royo him self could copy one of his works perfectly in another medium not matter if it's 3D,2D or eggs.and make it look like one of his.

Well the actual media Royo uses eludes me at the moment.

Is it Gauche with a little Air Brush ? Don't think thats right.

Olivia is the Air Brusher.

Royo, Boris  what medium do thay use ?

I could have told you this 20 years ago.

Fried my brain with dynamic cloth tonight.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

Poser is a tool for artistic expression.  The use of other digital imaging programs to enhance Poser work are also tools.  I don't get the whole "no post work" thing.  I want my images to look the best they can so I post work and all the graphics professionals whose books I've read do to.  

The bottom line is if people want their work to shine they should become intimately acquainted with any of the number of great graphics programs out there, even if it's just to make an unwanted seam invisible.  You don't have to have a lot of money GIMP is free and e-frontier has even given Art Rage painting program away.

Ya know it would be monumentally helpful if you all would read the post before responding to them.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

RorrKonn,

I can't help you there either.  I've never tried to push Poser anywhere ... and I wouldn't know a piece of artwork that did, unless the artist clearly demonstrated that it was a Poser only piece.

I only use Poser for creating clothing.  I don't even try to render in it, because I think the lighting is way too limited.  There may be artists out there who have made an effort to push Poser beyond its bounds, but I'm not certain why anyone would do it ... other than just to see if it could be done (and who has a lot of time on their hands).

Most of the Poser renders come out looking flat.  I don't necessarily think that's the artist's fault as I think the Poser lighting can only be pushed so far.  The better "Poser" works (IMO) are usually rendered in Bryce or Carrera or Vue .... or pick another rendering app .... that has the capability for atmospherics and other, more complex, lighting effects.

That said .... Poser wasn't created for that sort of render.  So, I think maybe that's why you don't see those types of pieces coming out of the Poser program.  It is beyond what the program can do.

rickymaveety: the Poser limitations you speak of apply to Poser 4 and Poser Pro Pack. From Poser 5 onward, the render engine HAS the capability for procedural shaders, atmospherics and raytraced reflections. Poser 6 added IBL, point lights and ambient occlusion.

Many Poser users, especially those from the Poser 4 age, do not spend the time and effort to master the newer render engine. It's an unwieldy beast, agreed, it's much easier to make a good water or metal shader in Vue or Bryce or Carrara, but it can be done in the Firefly engine, and it has been done. By a few.
The main reason I switched to Vue for rendering is scene complexity, not render engine capability. Poser can not handle scenes with 20+ figures, plus clothes, plus a complex environment loaded with plants, rocks and trees.

And even the lowly Poser 4 scanline renderer is capable of some impressive feats, provided the artist REALLY knows lighting and texturing. I have seen top quality renders by Giana straight from the Poser 4 engine.

As always, it comes down to skill, patience and perseverance.

svdl .... I stand corrected on the lights issue.  

I think it comes down to more than just the factors you mentioned.  Another big factor is time.

And, if Poser cannot handle complex scenes effectively, that's an even bigger limitation ... or as big as .... lighting.

So, your reasons more than mine still, I think, should answer RorrKonn's initial question, or a part of it.  Unless he's just asking about pin-ups, which don't require a complex scene (and honestly, I've never heard of most of the artists he mentions .... unless "Michael" is Michaelangelo and "Leonardo" is DaVinci.  Then, I've heard of two - both of whom created very visually complex pieces).

If it is just pin-ups and nudies, which just require the figure, a pose and a render, perhaps the reason that there aren't more really well rendered pure-Poser images of that genre is that the people who are producing those, for the most part, are not so much interested in producing anything of artistic relevance as they are getting yet another naked woman out there on the net.

For those people, once the thing is rendered and all the bits they want to see are out there, it goes into the gallery whether or not it could have been a better render.

So .... long way of saying that I think there are two groups of people who produce and post Poser characters, especially the nudes.  There are the ones who want to create a really artistic piece ... and generally a more complex scene than just one or more nudes in suggestive positions, and then there are those who just wanna make a picture of  a nekkid lady.

The first group is much more likely to use Poser as one tool among many.  The second group is not very likely to learn much about materials or lighting in Poser, because, hey ... as long as you can clearly see that it's a nekkid lady, who needs more?? 

Time.

You're right there. Firefly is NOT a fast render engine. There's a Poser 7 render chugging away on my render station (Athlon64x2 4400+, 4 GB RAM, a FAST machine), it's been rendering for two days now, and less than a quarter is done...

Then again, I tend to punish Vue 6 Infinite too. 50+ hours of render time are not unusual. And I haven't even started exploring all the exciting new possibilities.

I've had Bryce renders run that long.  Luckily for me, I have machines that I can just dedicate to a single render (I prefer that to the render farm approach).

What cracks me up are those times that I've just finished up a 30 hour render and then notice something that is just not quite right with the thing .... and so I tweak it and back in it goes for another 30 hours. 

Rings a bell. When some things show up after a LONG render that I don't like, I tweak, twiddle, test render until I'm satisfied, and render again.
And quite often something else turns up after the second production render finishes, so the whole cycle starts again...

Quote - Mostly they are people who (1) have very few posts, (2) none of which add anything to the community discussions, and (3) haven't posted a single piece of artwork ... or sometimes (4) have posted something that shows them to be wannabes.

Point taken. Just keep in mind some of us don't post every single render we do to the Gallery, because we don't consider it good enough. Some of us are just starting into, or getting back into using Poser. I'll be back when my Gallery is big enough, whatever the minimum is.. lee

Don't know where pin ups came from.

You can look in my gallery I guess ya might consider some pin up ish

But I consider my self a Fantasy Artist.

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_3DArt/00_3D-Renders_Main.htm

I meant Michael Angelo,Leonardo Da vinci.

You will see alot of Royo's Art on the covers of the Heavy Metal Magazine.

I can't remember for sure if Boris is in Heavy Metal or not god I've gone senile,but I think he is.

Heavy Metal http://www.metaltv.com
Luis Royo http://www.luisroyo.com
Julie Bell - Boris Vallejo http://www.borisvallejo.com

Olivia De Berardinis

Luis Royo

http://rivendell.fortunecity.com/redguard/636/royo/11.html

any other day I could find 5 galleys in 3 clicks ;)

Ya can do a goggle search for more galleries

Julie Bell - Boris Vallejo

http://www.klimov.kiev.ua/Gallery/

http://www.ice-haven.com/borisnf.html

http://membres.lycos.fr/skanlon/vallejo.htm

Olivia De Berardinis is the undeniable Queen of Pin ups.

http://www.twilightsite.com/Fantasy/Old/Olivia3/Olivia.html

Ya can do a goggle search for more galleries

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

Olivia's official site:
http://www.eolivia.com/

Ah scanmead ...  I don't post every single render I do either.  And some of the stuff I do post, I look back on ... and it's shear crap.  

But anytime that someone posts something derrogatory about another artist, or puts themselves out to be somehow above everyone else, something like that .... then the first thing I do is check out their gallery and their other posts.  For me, those two things amount to their credentials, and if they have none, and I don't know them otherwise, then I'm not going to give any credence to what they have to say.

Now, of course, if someone has no gallery, but has a TON of posts that are helpful, or well thought out, and really add something to the discussions, then ... that's fine with me.  There are a lot of people out there who are such perfectionists that they don't post much artwork at all because nothing ever seems quite good enough.  (I thank heavens that I am not one of those or I would never post render one.)

I'm just talking about those people who don't have a gallery and don't have anything good to say about anyone else's art or opinions.  Those people are nothing better than your average common troll.

RorrKonn, I think the pinups thing came in somewhere in the middle of the thread.  Myself, I have absolutely no interest in that type of art, but they may have something to do with being female and older than dirt.  Same thing with Heavy Metal ... no interest.  Actually, never had any interest in it even when I was a whole lot younger.  A head banger I am not.

I do like a fair amount of the sci-fi fantasy type of artwork ... in fact one of my fav images around here is one of those.  I've got it tagged on my profile page somewhere .... I think it's called the Outlander or something like that.

But, pinups?  Heavy metal?  Nahhhhh.   Not for me.

Oh, and PS:  I was confused because you called Michaelangelo  "Michael" .... his name was not Michael Angelo, but Michelangelo di Lodovico Buonarroti Simoni.  So, when people call him Michaelangelo, they are referring to him by his first name only ... not his full name.

Yeah, I'm that old .... used to go out with his older brother .... (snork)

You know what would be a hoot?  A serious run of Mousie pinups.  Maybe some in fetish gear.
ps:  you blew your Cultural Awareness skill roll, Heavy Metal magazine :)
http://www.heavymetal.com/

Eeeew.  You must know that Vilian will hunt you down and beat you with a wet noodle for coming up with an idea like that.

I woudn't know the difference between Heavy Metal the music and Heavy Metal magazine if they both snuck up on me and pelted me with .... well, whatever they might pelt me with.

I'm old ..... oooooooollllllld. 

Quote - Eeeew.  You must know that Vilian will hunt you down and beat you with a wet noodle for coming up with an idea like that.

I double dog dare you.

Me and Heavy Metal had a falling out in the early 80's so.

There for a wile thay didn't publish much if at all.

Maybe 1 or 2 mags a year.

But thay seem to have gotten it together enough laity to publish some stuff.

Thay alt to renamed the mag the phoenix.

Heavy Metal magazine was from New Jersey that collect short comics buy others threw it all in a mag / comic book for adults not that it's porn but close enough.

Thay did sell porno comic out of heavy metal.

If ya picture a bunch of party animals listening to heavy metal music while porno's our playing on one  TV and Sci-Fi's playing on another TV you get the idea.

Sounds just like a heavy metal band don't it.

There our a few Artist that's worth a damn that comes from Heavy Metal Mag ever now and then like Royo.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

Ah, well .... stilll doesn't sound like my cup of tea.

"not that it's porn but close enough" sounds like something that just wouldn't suit me.

I went to a porn movie once (back in LA sometime in the 70s).  I was bored out of my mind.  I spent more time watching the DOM in their trenchcoats.  Now that was a facinating study in pathos.  Like driving by a particularly awful car wreck ... you want to look away, but the sheer drama is compelling.  I ended up pulling my notebook out of my purse  (an actual paper and pencil notebook I always carried with me) and taking notes for a paper I eventually submitted in my Abnormal Psych course (at UCLA) ... got an A by the way.   The paper had to do with otherwise deviant behavior becoming the norm in certain subcultures and why those subcultures should be supported by the mainstream in order to give such behavior a controlled outlet.  And ... yada yada yada.

Rorrkonn:   I'm not intending to start any arguments with you, actually the contrary.  Since you first posted this thread, i've reread your original questions many times, and there is something about it.......  that I cant put a finger on, that slightly drives me nuts lol.

The only thing i can think is a tart return question, I'm serious, which is "Why does there have to be renders of that calibre anywhere?".

I don't think its your question, persea, but HOW its asked.  Such as, maybe, "where can I find the most skillful painstaking non postwork poser artists?".   The way its asked does come off slightly elitist....... or defamatory to those of us on the 2d spectrum of using poser.   I don't think that was your intent, but its just how it comes off.

That just invited I think a whole slew of remarks, which, in the long run, simply didn't answer your question.   The best answer I could give you is well, look around.   What I might think is sheer greatness you might think is utter crap........ so a directive to point you to your goal would probably lead you on a merry chase of dissapointment.

On a personal note, I know all the artists you refer to, including Boris whom I studied extensively in school. (eons ago mind you).   I adore heavy metal magazine, but that hardly means anything, i like a whole line up of art inspired magazines.  And........

Though Porn does not bore me, I'd rather do it, than be watching it :)

Just to set the record straight, I am not, nor have I ever been a troll. If you had bothered to look at my admittedly small gallery, you would notice I take a lot of care in what I do. Had you bothered to look at my site (in my signature), you would have seen an entire page of Cinema tutorials, and another page of free stuff. Had you checked the Cinema forum, you might have noticed that I have done mini-tutorials on a minute's notice to help out. Sorry if I came out sounding like a know-it-all at any point. I have a tendency to do that, however it's unintentional. But it's clear my presence isn't required here, and I'll post my work elsewhere along with my sometimes unpopular and poorly expressed opinions.

Tiari,

I am new to these forms.

But I am learning there is alot of emotion here and people wonder way off topic hear also.

Some forms emotion and OT's our not aloud.

There is alot of abbreviations here also.

Most I do not know.

I've learned T&A is Tits and Ass thou.

There's a long one about V3 and a sword to.

Anyways lets chat 2D.

I have the old Corel 8 that was released in the 98 days. that I'm having limits with my current OS.

So about all it's go for now is sizing and cropping.

There's some 2D I done in Corel at Atomic-3D.

Now I mostly use BP 2.

I do not have Adobe.

But need it for hair brushes and all it's brushes and mask.

BP 2 don't have spline masks but ya can use meshes just can't feather,sniff sniff.

Not sure what BP 3 can do.

Trying to paint textures with out seems drives me nuts.

Adobe has stuff for that I like to have also.

BP 2 you can paint right on the mess which is kool.

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

You can try out GIMP which is free if you do a search for it on the web, I dont have a handy link.  "The Gimp" is an image editing program for painting, and detailing (texture making, postwork) you name it, and its got some nifty tools.  If your wallet cant handle adobe (most people's cant) the Gimp is a great alternatve.

scanmead .... I wasn't talking about you.  Sorry if you got that idea, but I don't consider 564 posts (many of them contributory) to be "very few posts" and I don't consider having a small gallery to be equal to not posting "a single piece of artwork."

Further, I value opinions as long as they are expressed as opinions.

I think the post to which I was referring was removed by the moderator because the person who posted it said something rather slanderous about another (very talented) artist, and since this particular person (1) had not a single image posted and (2) had in something like 5 years here maybe 75 posts none of which I saw as much of more slander or opinions stated as fact, I said I considered that sort of person to be a troll.

However, you were not the individual I was discussing and having a small gallery doesn't automatically make a person a troll in my book.  Trolls are what they say and do, and I don't see that you've ever said or done anything that would cause that label to be slapped on you.