I'm never impressed by any company, political group or in fact any one who's best shot is:-

"I have nothing of merit to say about myself so to make me look good I'll ridicule my competitor"

Not getting into a PC/Mac debate this goes across the board.

I'll have more time for any salesman who comes to me and says ... "Yes competitor's product XYZ indeed has merit, the company that I represent has similar products with equal features but may I point out some areas in which we excel"

That to me shows respect.

If your kids started to bad mouth their playmates would you let that go? Would you encourage them with ... "yeah the more you make them look small the bigger you'll appear to be" ?

Or would you rather hear them reply .. "But that's what the man on TV did and you just laughed"

ouch!

I agree with you PhilC. I love PCs, especially being able to modify them, and I doubt I will ever switch over, no matter how beautiful the Mac machines. However, it would never occur to me to belittle Macs or Mac users. If that machine works for them, that's great.

I haven't found anything (including my artistic and musical endeavors) that can't be done as well on a PC as on a Mac, and find those commercials, although cute, pretty misleading. Of course, they are directed at people who don't know very much about computers ... but it's sad that they need to get new users by misleading them and denigrating the competition.

Could be worse, could be raining.

Attached Link: http://blogs.technet.com/markrussinovich/archive/2007/02/12/638372.aspx

And for those who prefer facts to ridicule, here's the link to Mark Russinovich' blog on Windows. This guy KNOWS what he's talking about.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

stupid campiagn - totally humourless and pointless.

Like Jobs talking about removing DRM and yet all his overpriced incomptabile designer junk have this rammed to the gills.

We've got nearly the same ads here in the UK featuring 2 unfunny comdieans called mitchel and webb. Just print ads for now but TV are coming soon.

Advertisng like this doesn't want to make me buy their product - it's like most car ads - they don't tell you anything about the product.

When I buy a computer next I don't care how pretty it looks, I need and want a machine that works most of the time and can run the stuff I've paid for. So the next machine purchase will be a pc with xp and not a mac or anything with vista on it.

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Too funny LOL, I am a PC user (die hard) but absolutly love these commercials

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I agree with Phil, great point there. I've been a longtime Mac user, but I have to say if it wasn't for our PC brothers and sisters we'd have a substantially smaller amount of content and free stuff. Heck, with as small a user base as Macs have there probably wouldn't BE a Poser or DAZ Studio. It's the combined strength of all users who have contributed and made our hobby what it is. OTOH, I sure wish our PC brothers and sisters would just give it a try. There really is a lot elegant engineering under the skin and the OS has a ton of neat stuff you can do. We see the pain that PC users have to constantly endure, and in the end we just want you all to have an enjoyable computing experience too. That's all. Is the Mac perfect? Heck no, just ask Phil. ; ) but its not for lack of trying. At least consider the possibility of switching, that's all I ask. You can write to Steve Jobs and express your views (keep it short, civil, and intelligent). Apple does listen, I know because I've had a personal reply from him regarding an issue I raised. His email is "leadership@apple.com". cheers and best to all

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things! ; )

P.S. @ odeathoflife - I've gotta get a tissue now, I blew coffee all over my keyboard when I saw your avatar !!! Way too funny ! : D

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things! ; )

*"We see the pain that PC users have to constantly endure, and in the end we just want you all to have an enjoyable computing experience too. That's all."

what pain? all my PC's are pain free..... running Windows XP Professional as well... all run smooth, virus free, adware free and unhacked... wondering what pain I should be feeling?*

found it while searching for animated avatars, and just had to use it LOL

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I agree with Phil, I hate this kind of ad. Ths reminds me of Politics.

Oh, I think the ads are funny ... no question about that. They just don't make me want to run out and buy a Mac. Very funny. Misleading, but funny.

Elfwine, I have, from time to time, considered buying a Mac. I've even gone down to the store to look at them and price them. But, whenever I start talking specifics as to what I want in a computer (mostly hardware), I am told that they don't make a Mac like that and that I can't modify a Mac to be what I need.

Not having what I want does not equate to an "enjoyable computing experience" to me. Also, not being able to fix it quickly when there is a problem bothers me. (Of course, I'm still pissed off from when I found out that when my iPod battery goes, I can't just replace the battery. I have to turn in my iPod and be given someone else's used iPod as a replacment .... WTF??)

I live out in the sticks. I really need a machine that I can pull apart, get replacement parts fairly easily, and do the repairs and upgrades myself. The Mac (and the Mac culture) doesn't seem to be very accomodating to hardware junkies like me.

That said ... I'm not about to buy or build anything with Vista on it for quite a while. Not until the driver problems are history. But, then ... I don't have to ... as a DIY PC type of person, I can just build something and put XP on it. I'm not limited to what they sell in the stores. And, if I switched to Mac ... that's exactly where I would be ... limited to what they sell in the stores.

Could be worse, could be raining.

Khai, please don't take this as being disrespectful, I really know very little about Windows, and I'm glad for your trouble-free computing experience, but I am honestly curious. Is this Windows XP Professional straight out of the box, with no other modifications? Or do you have a additional software running in the background to prevent intrusion and/or infection? If so, how much do you have to pay monthly to keep everything up-to-date? Surely, having such a trouble-free system doesn't come without constant vigilance or cost? all the best :)

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things! ; )

ok lets see... all I did was turn off some services in the background I did'nt need, add on some free software (Zonealarm, AVG, Spybot and Adware), schedule AV and Malware Scans for 2am when I'm nicely asleep and thats about it... as to constant vigilance, I just don't open attachments unless they are scanned first and thats about it..

total cost to maintain : Free.
total time to maintain : for the scans 2 hours while I'm asleep and maybe 5-20mins a week awake.

ain't hard to do...

I'm cool with that. cheers! : D [~]D

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things! ; )

The world is full of different people, and luckily they are not all the same. I personally don't bother with TV, I don't have enough time to do the rendering I want. But over the years I've seen millions adds that suck worse than these Apple adds. To me these adverts say lighten up, don't take your PC or Mac to seriously. If you're in the PC camp, have a laugh at yourself, if you're a Mac user have a laugh at yourself. Both are just caricatures. If you take TV so seriously I wonder how you reacted to the superbowl snickers add. OMG.

I don;t know... I'm a die hard PC user but I still get a chuckle over those commercials. I mean doesn;t Gates own a sizable stock in both Windows and Apple? so it's kind of like 2 kids poking fun at each other, can't take what they say serious, but on it;s own merit it's amusing.

mike

on the same lines have you guys seen the "I'm a Wii and I'm a Playstation" parody on youtube? very funny as well.

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Most of the ads I've seen are pretty boring, but the Vista one was spot on. I'm a died-in-the-wool PC user and never had any real problem with any software.

EXCEPT Vista (and Poser 7 which is for another thread!) . We had to reformat one at work after book-keeping put Vista on it. My boss had a hammer out at one point and I was frustrated to the point of letting him beat on it. We put XP Pro back on it after reformat.

NOW I laugh everytime I see that I see the Mac vs Pc Vista commercial. I see it more as a slam against thoughtless Microsoft more than PC's. Don't see many people slamming Linux, either and that's a PC OS. LOLZ

When it comes to ANY corporate chest-pounding adverts--I don't take ANY of them seriously. At least when they are supposed to funny makes them easier to laugh at. Most of the time. :lol:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!

Yeah, I did a lot of research before deciding NOT to "upgrade" to Vista. I will wait until everyone else goes mad trying to get that OS to work. XP works beautifully for me and I'm keeping it.

Could be worse, could be raining.

I'm with Phil on this one. Trying to make PC's and their users look stupid is not any way to endear me to your products.

I'm a PC Owner and I've used Mac's and yes, they are nice machines, but these commercials won't make me switch to a machine that costs nearly 3 times as much and is less versatile than a PC.

i'm a mac user and most of my friends have pc. at work we are 1/2 mac 1/2 pc, Pc seems best for people who like to customize and want a wide range of software, the mac is best for those who don't want to have to know a lot about how it works and whos software needs are basically personal life management or graphics. Both platforms seem to leapfrog eachother in terms of speed and processing power. As an artist I want to concentrate on my art and the mac allows me to do that with little worry about the mechanics of the computer. I will say I do love the ads and how they capture the public images of steve and bill. Mac has never been about selling all the facts in ads or on there packaging they let the web site and mac stores do that. But i have been frustrated when I go to and electronics plavce that doesn't have mac eperts to tell the details. If you live near a mac store go there for your info and answers to any hardware issues. Got a little off topic sorry, to sum things up both platforms have advantages for differnt people. And please forgive steve and us macs enthusiests for having a little fun at bills expense. After years of being told we were second rate, a little success has gone to our heads.

not that long ago, an independant made a "reverse" commercial to the pc/mac ads....... its back when people would hav the mac commercials, a single individual, "hi i'm such in such...... and here's what i can do on my mac......." so on so fourth. Not sure if you remember them.

Wish i had a link to the skewer did in reverse, i nearly fell off my chair. I'm a pc user, and i've seen macs........ still not sold. lol. Yes, some things about the PC sucks, but Mac's have their OWN issues, different, but just as mind strangling as ours. Don't let the ads fool you, no one's grass is any greener.

Attached Link: "Crash Different on a Mac"

LOLOL found it:

lol, we don't like our computers being made to look stupid... What if they start on my washing machine, oh no they're pocking fun at my hair-drier. but we're happy to broadcast the same old put downs of the Mac, we're now in 2007. Time to revise you're old prejudices, search the net, Macs cost about the same as any brand named PC. And Mac's are just as versatile, in fact they can run all that PC software too. So they are more versatile. I don't think the adverts make PC users look stupid.

It has never once even occurred to me, nor have I seen anyone, react badly to the Mac and PC guy commercials. They are funny. It surprises me that people are offended. The two guys pretty much sum up the image of both Operating Systems. The PC guy is Mr. Business and looks a bit like Bill Gates. The Mac guy is Mr College and looks a bit like Steve Jobs. Most the humor stems from the Mac guy being ahead-of-the-curve and the PC guy is playing catch-up. That happens to be true. Learn your computer history. Mac has always been visionary. Maybe that's why I laugh at the commercials, -- I completely agree with the point of view of the commercials, it's like truth wrapped in joke. bB

I like macintosh computers, however Steve Jobs seems to think innovation is just creative copying.
The recent iphone comes to mind. The original mac interface wasn't stolen as often implied. It was a good deal for Xerox and Apple, but Jobs still copied the work of another person, improved on, and called it innovation. I saw a youtube ad where he derided microsofts copying Apples use of Fonts, however I don't believe he came up with those either.
Apple has done a lot of great work, but I'm not sure I'd label all of it innovative.

I found this article on Jobs interesting. It's a bit old, but still true . query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html

Well, BastBlack, it's more like a half-truth wrapped in a joke. It's a good joke, mind you, but the things left out can be pretty important.

For example, the Mac OS has security holes. It's just that the people who like to create viruses, worms and other destructive bits of code perfer to get more bang for their buck. And, since Macs make up such a small percentage of the computers out there, they've been left alone. That doesn't make them more secure, it just makes them worthy of being ignored ... for now.

I think you all ought to thank your lucky stars and hope that more people don't decide to get a Mac, because if they ever get a real toe-hold, you all are going to be a much more attractive target.

The other half-truth that cracks me up is that PCs are only for business. There's a sterotype that isn't grounded in reality. Oh, yes, I am able to use my PC for business, but I've also be publishing photographs, creating books and artwork, playing games, listening to music, for close to 2 decades now. So, to say that PC users are non-creative business types (which is the stereotype of the ads), is .... well, wrong.

So, it's not "like the truth" wrapped in a joke .... it's not the truth at all. It's an ad ... and as we all know, ads are not for dissemminating information, they are for selling a product. In this case, in order for Jobs et al. to sell the Mac, they have to make the PC look bad. It's a not very noble try ... but it may work, for those people who, as you said, don't want to know anything about their machine and plan to live close to a Mac Store for the rest of their days.

Could be worse, could be raining.

I thought it was funny, I have not seen a microsoft program yet that I like, including windows.

It would be funnier if as a Mac user I recognized the problems he was complaining about. As it is, it seems that he's terribly upset that the Mac doesn't operate exactly the same as a PC. Duh. -Alan

Quote - not that long ago, an independant made a "reverse" commercial to the pc/mac ads....... its back when people would hav the mac commercials, a single individual, "hi i'm such in such...... and here's what i can do on my mac......." so on so fourth. Not sure if you remember them.

Wish i had a link to the skewer did in reverse, i nearly fell off my chair. I'm a pc user, and i've seen macs........ still not sold. lol. Yes, some things about the PC sucks, but Mac's have their OWN issues, different, but just as mind strangling as ours. Don't let the ads fool you, no one's grass is any greener.

Quote - I'm with Phil on this one. Trying to make PC's and their users look stupid is not any way to endear me to your products.

I'm a PC Owner and I've used Mac's and yes, they are nice machines, but these commercials won't make me switch to a machine that costs nearly 3 times as much and is less versatile than a PC.

No arguments from me- you know what you want and need- and are happy with it! I realized the futility- and pointlessness of my OS is better than yours discussions! However... "I'm a PC Owner and I've used Mac's and yes, they are nice machines, but these commercials won't make me switch to a machine that costs nearly 3 times as much and is less versatile than a PC." Cough Cough! Have you looked at the Intel Macs? Just curious. It's easy to run XP at full speed with the latest Intel Core duo2 or Quad core Xeons- on a Mac. I've used PC's at work since DOS. Currently I use XP Pro at work and OSX 10.4.8 at home. I'm savvy on both- just prefer the ease of use and near total absence of Trojans, Worms, etc on OSX.... Also the price disparity has narrowed a great deal. True- there are no $300 emachine Macs- but there are $599 Intel Core Duo Macs And since it Unix at heart- you can open a terminal and away you go. I bought the last dual core G5 version Tower-JUST as the new Intel Macs came out- because I wanted to use old OS 9 programs-my next will be a 4 or 8? core Intel Mac. Best of both worlds. You can BOOT XP or run at around 90% speed as a window under OSX I'm listening to a CD, Rendering in Lightwave 9.2 and surfing and writing on the net right now. I've online accomplices who are using the 3 Ghz Xeon Quad Core Mac- Envious I am! Eric Hate PC's? Nah.

Just a reminder, folks... That thing on you desk is just a tool. The most important computer is the one between your ears. Later joe

Quote - Just a reminder, folks... That thing on you desk is just a tool. The most important computer is the one between your ears. Later joe

Yay!

It's just a tool. The only computer is between your ears - the rest of the stuff is binary logic and mathematics masquerading as something else. Remember, it's a dumb machine just like your washer and hair dryer (to which was alluded). It's a special dumb machine, but it's still dumb. They still can't really understand what the heck you're saying and they certainly can't think in any sense of the word.

I love the commercials. You must take them with a very large grain of salt (the Dead Sea might be a start). And as a long-time computer user of various flavors, I still find them hilarious - even as fun is poked at my main squeeze.

How can you not laugh at "speaking of peripherals!" If you can't laugh at yourself, you need sponge-bath, tickle my feet Elmo therapy. :D Face it, the world is a f...ed-up place and we don't get much time to enjoy it (lol). Isn't that funny?

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

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Quote - Heck, with as small a user base as Macs have there probably wouldn't BE a Poser or DAZ Studio.

History note: Poser was originally written specifically for MacOS, I believe. ;) As for the commercial? c'est la vie. I have both Macs and PC's. With a real OS on the PC (Linux), I see no real difference, performance-wise. But then, both OSX and Linux are UNIX forks. Most of what Apple (truthfully) pokes fun at is Microsoft Windows, and much as everyone derides it as arrogant or whatever, it's true for the majority of Windows users out there. That said, I like they way they used to advertise Linux much better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmVGVdUEgJk Inspiration beats snark anytime, IMHO. But then, when the snark is based in general and easily verifyable truth...? /P

You want to hear something completely strange? (I think this strangeness is just as true of OS as it is true of discussions/arguments of favorite character models.) In a way, the computer, (or a figure), becomes something like a pet. We invest all this money in it, take care of it, nurture and let it grow... So maybe that's why there are debates like this even if it's not rational? bB

Eh, well .... I put all the blame on my ex-boyfriend. Most of you will never have heard of him, his name is Guy Kawasaki. They used to call him the "Mac Evangalist." He worked for Apple for a number of years (not while we were dating ... that was while he was still getting his MBA).

Anyway, he has written lots of books about different aspects of business ... and one comes to mind called "How to Drive Your Competition Crazy: Creating Disruption for Fun and Profit." Guy is a great person, a wonderful human being, but I never agreed with this particular idea. I just don't think that the marketplace should be turned into a war zone just to sell a product.

Of course, I'm not a multi-millionaire and Guy is, so apparently turning the marketplace into a war zone works. Sad, but true. Anyway, I think a lot of his thoughts about business practicies can probably still be found at AC, and are very evident in those commercials.

I guess because I've never had a security problem with my PC, and never been limited in the art I produce, or the music I listen to, or the (gasp) business programs I run .... and I'm able to run them all at the same time, I'm just missing out on where this "easily verifyable trust" lies. I haven't heard a thing in any of those snarky commercials that relates to my machine (note, I say my "machine" .... I have more than enough pets).

Could be worse, could be raining.

Debating over who likes mac and who likes PC is rather like trying to figure out why some like Wings3d and some like maya. Its all simple preference to the user. That said, lets look at the commercial (and its other ad campaigns) a little more closely.

I actually think as a consumer, mac is doing a disservice to itself in how its portraying itself....... as this "fun seeking cool kid". Though amusing with vista, of course, and its noted problems, thats a program, not the PC itself. So the vista aside, lets look at the two and how the mac commercial's portray them.

Mac: Cool young college looking guy out to have a good time
PC: Serious business suited man looking to work.

Personally, as a consumer, I want a computer that is "serious machinery", that will do the tasks I ask of it, yes for business, as well as what else i know a PC can already do by using one so many years. Make films, art, play warcraft and do my taxes. The idea that a PC only runs windows alone and a word processor is actually showcasing in mac commercials that they have no clue what a PC can actually do.

Mac highlighting whats "wrong" with a PC, but not highlighting whats actually user compatable in a mac..... "It can do what you already do but better" (which should be the idea), its not selling too many people on it. If as portrayed, PC users are all serious stuffy business people crunching numbers, well......... they aren't going to make any sales anyway telling that stereotype "hey, lets make a goofy movie!".

So to find out anything of what a mac can really do you have to either, find someone who has one and have a look, or search around all over for the specs and information. I've done both, and have found really, nothing a mac can do, that my PC can't. Its basically a computer with a different operations.

I know several people in manhattan that work for a graphics firm and they all have macs, because the idea is macs are better for graphics. I have gotten the lectures from all of them, that i should be using a mac for what i do because its "better"................. then I show them my work.

"You made that on a PC?".
"Yeah, HP Pavillion".
"Oh.......".

It would appear they had no idea I could do that LOL.

Yup, Tiari, I get the same response from Mac users all the time. They cannot believe that I do the things I do, and with a home built PC no less. It gives me the giggles.

The ads are cute, but since I want a machine that will do the fun stuff as well as the business stuff, those commercials are not going to convince me to switch. And, Apple Computers has a long (long) way to go before it makes any serious inroads into the computer marketplace. I just don't see that this line of ads is going to take them very far in the right direction.

Could be worse, could be raining.

Quote -
Mac highlighting whats "wrong" with a PC, but not highlighting whats actually user compatable in a mac..... "It can do what you already do but better" (which should be the idea), its not selling too many people on it. If as portrayed, PC users are all serious stuffy business people crunching numbers, well......... they aren't going to make any sales anyway telling that stereotype "hey, lets make a goofy movie!".

So to find out anything of what a mac can really do you have to either, find someone who has one and have a look, or search around all over for the specs and information. I've done both, and have found really, nothing a mac can do, that my PC can't. Its basically a computer with a different operations.

That's exactly the complain I've had about Apple advertising. They do make good hardware, especially laptops, but they don't actually bother telling you about it. No, you have to buy an Apple because it's cool. My sister has a Macbook and the reason she has it was because of word of mouth from a friend of hers who had one and so on and she could see what it would do.

Quote -
I know several people in manhattan that work for a graphics firm and they all have macs, because the idea is macs are better for graphics. I have gotten the lectures from all of them, that i should be using a mac for what i do because its "better"................. then I show them my work.

"You made that on a PC?".
"Yeah, HP Pavillion".
"Oh.......".

It would appear they had no idea I could do that LOL.

Yeah, that "graphics and sound" nonsense was true ten or more years ago but there are very few programs you can only get on Apple versus a Wintel machine these days. It's inertia more than anything.

Not to mention the many times I've seen this little note on downloads:

"This product is for the PC only. There is no Mac support."

Yes .... I know you folks can run Windows on your Macs now, but what does it say about the Mac that you have to run Windows on it to have do what you need it to do??

Could be worse, could be raining.

I didn't mean to spark a Mac vs PC debate- I just thought the commercial was funny!
Does it convince me to buy a Mac instead of PC? No.
Does it convince me not to install Vista? Partially, but I know enough to do some research on Vista to make sure it's right for what I do.

Changing the subject slightly: has anyone seen the movie "Accepted"? When I saw the trailer for the first time, I thought, "Hey, Mac Guy is in a movie!" That guy may become stereotyped as "Mac Guy" forever. ;)

Now, let's get on to a more serious discussion: as everyone obviously knows, Picard was the better captain. :lol:

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

LOL. I agree. Picard rulez. ;)

I have thought about the guys in the commerical being forever "Pc guy" and "Mac guy". Remember Dell Guy and he caught smoking weed or something and what a PR problem that was? What if Pc guy or PC guy does something that could be bad PR? The PC Guy is on the Daily Show, but it's hard for me to see past his "Pc Guy" persona. The Mac Guy I think has been in some comedies but I don't think they did well.

In other news... I just ran across this video of a guy who hacked his Prius and installed a MiniMac to run his iTune music library. OMG.... That is so hot. I want one. drools
http://www.kusnetz.net/prius/

No argument, Picard was (i) the best captain and (ii) the hotest captain. Of course, I'm still really pissed off from STE killing off Tripp. I have no idea what possessed them to do that.

But, just thinking about the ad for the moment ... not the PC/Mac debate ... but just the ad. Who is their target audience?? You would think that, for all the money they are spending on an ad campaign, they would hope to reach their target audience ... whoever those people are.

It can't very well be people who already have a Mac and are happy with it. Those people don't need an ad to get them to buy another Mac.

It can't be people who own a PC and are happy with it, because that ad does nothing to tell them what (if anything) would make having a Mac better for them.

I don't see how it could be people who just don't like Vista, because most of them are just sticking with XP or moving to Linux or some alternative platform.

Not certain it would be people who don't like MS, since the OS is just one program among many. Most of what I use, and keep purchasing, are non-MS products.

So, I'm left with people who don't own a computer and know absolutely nothing about computers (and whose grade school children are probably going to make the computer purchasing decision). For them, the "cool" factor is going to be what's important. Now, most of us know that "cool" is an gawdawful reason for purchasing anything, much less something that is going to cost you more than $20 for a "cool" t-shirt.

But there you have it ... funny ad, providing no really useful information, target audience: grade school (and possibly somewhat older) children who need the latest "cool" thing.

In the end, the ad has nothing to do with the merits of either PC or Mac. Nothing to do with Steve Jobs or Bill Gates. Nothing to do with computers at all. Everything to do with how much they can get someone to buy into the cool factor.

I just hope that anyone who purchases anything based on thinking it's "cool" still thinks they got the most bang for their buck when it's not "cool" anymore. (I'm thinking mostly about all my neighbors who ditched their Hummers recently. Apparently, it's not the "cool" car to own anymore.)

Could be worse, could be raining.

If you want to know who the target audience is, you look at the TV program, the time slot, and actors used in the ad.

I see the Pc Mac guy ads when watching The Daily Show and The Colbert Report. They are famious with advertisers for having the coveted 18-35 male demo.

Quote - I'm just missing out on where this "easily verifyable trust" lies.

Imagine this: * not having to hunt down drivers. Plug it in and odds are it just works. * not having to run any anti-virus, anti-spyware, anti-anything. * Everything else? Here's a few sites: Security Focus UAC troubles ...plenty of references in this very forum ab't Poser 7 and Vista. Why OSX and Linux are safer ...while you mention that you yourself have not seen any troubles, I daresay that you are a member of a lucky minority in this regard. As someone who does this sort of thing professionally, I can say with certainty that Windows is the cause of the majority of IT headaches, and not just because of numbers (for instance, 2 Windows servers in a 100-server enviironment will readily eat 20% of a sysadmin's time just to keep them running and somewhat secure). /P

18-35 year old males. OK ... well, we pretty much know that for them, sex and cool is what sells. Not the merits of the product. So, for them, it's the perfect ad.

Penguinisto I can imagine that. I've never had to hunt down a driver. If I do update a driver, it's taken me all of 2 minutes to find it and another 2 to run it. Also, as to security, I don't spend a lot of time running anti-anything. Those things run in the middle of the night while I'm asleep, so I don't much notice them.

Keep in mind, if Macs ever become really popular, then you too will be running all those programs. Then again, as long as businesses stay away from the Mac, you may be safe. And, before you start talking Vista .... when did it suddenly become necessary to run Vista in order to have a fully functional PC?? And is Linux run on Macs??

Are you somehow confusing the PC with a specific OS? And not only that, but with a specific version of that OS? That's not much of an argument to make.

Could be worse, could be raining.

The target audience for the commercials are people who are not particularly tech savvy and are disenchanted with Windows. The commercials are saying, "hay over here, you have another choice."

Now I agree that they are a bit over the top, they are funny, but I have to kind of agree with PhilC's point of view as well.

Me:
I own 4 PC's Running 3 flavors of Windows and Ubuntu and 2 Macs. My experience is about 90% windows, 9.9% Mac, .01% Linux. (Just because thats what I use and maintain at work.) AND I have run into problems with Windows and Mac and Linux over the years. It's just a fact of life.

I prefer Macs but I stopped a long time ago trying to convince people to use Macs. Its like arguing religion or politics. In the end you both leave pissed off and no one has changed their opinion. In fact it usually only serves to harden a persons existing opinion.

*For instance, 2 windows servers in a 100 server environment will readily eat 20% of a sysadmin's time

*Not so sure about that. My brother is the senior sysadmin of a mixed server environment - several Windows servers, several Linux servers, plus a couple of HP UX machines.

When it comes to patching security leaks, HP UX is easy. The patch is on the HP site. Windows is easy. The patch is on Windows Update. Linux - my brother has had to track down some specific patches for a leak in Apache, then he foud out that this particular patch required another patch, he had to hunt down that one too, he had to make sure he had the correct patch for the distro he's running. in short, it took almost a day before he had patched the Linux servers, while the Windows and UX machines were patched in minutes.

Oh, and Mac patches are easy too, of course.

I've run a Windows server OS permanently connected to the Internet for over 5 years now. My logs tell me they're regularly scanned, and sometimes an automatic attack is tried. Nothing has ever broken through.
Then again, nobody will really spend time to break into a simple home network. If your defenses are good enough to withstand automated attacks, you're fine.

Big companies is another matter, of course. Hackers WILL spend time and effort to break in, so you need better defenses.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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Personally, considering the heavy use of PC's and the lighter use of Mac's, saying Mac's have no security issues is a bit premature. No one's breaking into them, because the markets waaaaaaaay over there, in PC land. I mean after all, would you rob a bank or a quarter toy vendor outside walmart?

I made that point too, Tiari (you brilliant person, you), but people who think the Mac is perfect aren't too interested in hearing that.

They sort of gloss over it ...

As far as I know, there isn't an absolutely perfect macine or OS out there. I hope someone builds it someday, and that it runs everything, and never ever crashes or needs an update ... and it comes in all of the colors I like, and works with all of the other hardware I like ... oh, and is really simple to repair and upgrade (but it would never really need an upgrade or a repair because it would never break ... but if it did, the parts would be inexpensive).

I know .... keep dreaming, right?

Could be worse, could be raining.

I'm a scared of that Mac guy. He looks dirty, like that creepy foreigner who hangs out by the newspaper kiosk and is always asking me for spare change and plantain flavored chewing tobacco. Do you think he could be dangerous, eh?

Quote - Linux - my brother has had to track down some specific patches for a leak in Apache, then he foud out that this particular patch required another patch, he had to hunt down that one too, he had to make sure he had the correct patch for the distro he's running. in short, it took almost a day before he had patched the Linux servers, while the Windows and UX machines were patched in minutes.

Tell him to install YUM if he uses RedHat. Problem solved (seriously). I've had zero problems w/ updating RHEL and Fedora Core machinery that way... it's fully automatic and covers any dependencies found (the only time I really did anything with 'em is to update the JDK, which was custom-compiled). Oh, and SuSE can be updated easily via YaST. As for Windows, yes, putting patches in is easy (rebooting aside) - the problems arise when the patches undo the security measures put into place. For instance, the example I posted originally involved my previous employer... we had well over 100 servers, with two of them running Windows (the rest running a combination of RHEL, Solaris, and FreeBSD). ALL of them had to maintain Department of Defense Security Technical Implementation Guideline requirements ( see these for details). Every time a round of patches went in, odds were very good that the Windows machines would fail their STIG audits immediately afterwards. Audits of RHEL machinery post-patch were always good, with no potential compromises. Same story with FreeBSD and CVSup pushes, as well as Solaris. Systems Administration is a lot more than simply sticking in patches... they have to work w/o compromising or deteriorating what you have in place. > Quote - I've run a Windows server OS permanently connected to the Internet for over 5 years now. My logs tell me they're regularly scanned, and sometimes an automatic attack is tried. Nothing has ever broken through.

Then again, nobody will really spend time to break into a simple home network. If your defenses are good enough to withstand automated attacks, you're fine.

That's a rather dangerous stance to take, IMHO, for many reasons: 1) Security Through Obscurity doesn't work. Bot Herders want numbers, not value. 2) With the advent of rootkits and some rather primitive logging capabilities that Windows has (compared to other OSes, they are primitive), I wouldn't trust them - external logs are more reliable in Windows' case. 3) One word: Rootkits. In any other OS but Windows, processes cannot hide themselves from view. > Quote - Big companies is another matter, of course. Hackers WILL spend time and effort to break in, so you need better defenses.

While I agree that there have been trends of targeted hacking, I'm still very confident that the bot-herders are more prevalent, and they really don't care what they hit, as long as it has an IP address. > Quote - Penguinisto I can imagine that. I've never had to hunt down a driver. If I do update a driver, it's taken me all of 2 minutes to find it and another 2 to run it. Also, as to security, I don't spend a lot of time running anti-anything. Those things run in the middle of the night while I'm asleep, so I don't much notice them.

Like I said - you've been lucky. Ask anyone who does anything serious with a computer, and you'll find a far different story (or even not-so-serious, if recent NVIDIA driver troubles on Vista are any indication). > Quote - Keep in mind, if Macs ever become really popular, then you too will be running all those programs.

That's not much more than an urban legend, and here's why: OSX (like any other *nix derivative) has a completely different internal architecture which doesn't allow a binary (program) to gain system-wide reach without explicit permission from root. Apache on Linux outnumbers IIS on Windows in the Web Server industry for years on end... and yet nearly all Linux installs run just fine w/o any sort of A/V software. PHP could certainly use some improvements in that arena (or rather, people who write PHP pages need to know how to write a secure app), but the OS itself w/ reasonable security measures in place (and no A/V software) is in no danger that I'm aware of. The whole 'market share = vulnerable!' argument is merely a smokescreen, IMHO... mostly perpetuated in various tech forums by Microsoft fans and actual MSFT astroturfers (folks literally paid or bloggers who have been bribed by Microsoft to comment favorably for Windows). Now, I'll be the absolute last human being to tell you that any OS is immune, but as far as operating systems go, there is at least one line that sits on the bottom of the list of "secure". Oh, BTW: Linux can and does run on Mac hardware, both PPC and Intel. Has had that ability for years. (Google for "Yellow Dog Linux" :) ) It also runs comfortably on CPU's such as Sparc, RISC, ARM (PDA's ranging from PocketPCs to Palms to Treos), mobile phone sets, and even IBM z-Series mainframes. The whole Apple commercial thing isn't really Macs Vs. PC, but OSX vs. Windows, if that helps. There... had my say, no need for anyone to go further down the rabbit hole, I suspect. I refuse to make anything degenerate into some sort of religious flamewar. If you manage to escape being turned into some script kiddie's bot, great. I wish you luck. Me, I'm only looking at odds here, and I find them to be better on non-Microsoft products. Cheers, /P

I do a lot of very "serious" things on my computer. That's why I haven't bothered with Vista.

If the whole Apple commercial thing isn't Macs vs. PC, then there are a number of commercials in the series that make no sense at all. And, why call the other character "PC"?

I disagree with you on the "smokescreen" argument. You are welcome to the opinion, but I don't see it as based on fact. Either the OS is immune from attack or it's not. Either it's an attractive target to those who want to do a lot of damage, or it's not. If the reason isn't market share, then I'd love to hear what is.

Could be worse, could be raining.

No Redhat or Suse (by the way, the one time I tried to install Suse the first things that failed were YAST and YAST2. Had to do everything by hand). Debian and Slackware (everything is Slackware now). My brother's problem was on Debian.

Bot herders ARE automated processes. Those are stopped by the security measures I have in place. Most bots target badly secured XP Home systems and will bounce off a decently configured router and/or a decently configured Win2K/Win2k3 server.
My defenses will not stop a determined hacker who'll spend hours to figure out how to break into my system. But it's rather unlikely that a hacker WOULD spend that time. Nothing of interest on a home system. And in the time he would have to spend on breaking into my network, he could have turned several hundred XP Home systems into his zombies.

Logging - both Windows and my ADSL router(running a VXworks derivative) are set to audit connection attempts and more. Almost everything is stopped at the router, the very, very few things that manage to pass the router are stopped by Win2k3 server.

By the way, I don't run antivirus or antispyware on my workstations. I regularly check them using an online scanner. Haven't had a virus in 5 years. Some tracking cookies, that's all.

Driver problems - not since I switched to only buying A-quality components.

In short, simply by not being a complete idiot I don't have any problems with my Windows systems.

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Yeah, svdl .... I suppose that's what it comes down to. There are a lot of complete idiots out there who own computers ... and unfortunately, some of them purchase PCs. But, the better choice for the complete idiot is clearly the Mac.

Could be worse, could be raining.

Quote - I do a lot of very "serious" things on my computer. That's why I haven't bothered with Vista.

If the whole Apple commercial thing isn't Macs vs. PC, then there are a number of commercials in the series that make no sense at all. And, why call the other character "PC"?

I'll lay it out in a simple chain: * Linux, FBSD, Solaris and the like on PC hardware doesn't suffer the same maladies. * But, most folks think "Windows" when they think "PC's", no? Therefore - the Apple ads are a hit against Windows primarily, with the likes of Dell and HP as secondary targets. > Quote -

I disagree with you on the "smokescreen" argument. You are welcome to the opinion, but I don't see it as based on fact.

While there are no statistics per se, there is enough logic to support it (again, I refer you to Apache vs. IIS). > Quote - Either the OS is immune from attack or it's not. Either it's an attractive target to those who want to do a lot of damage, or it's not.

You're speaking in absolutes when security threats are much less clearly defined. Specific corporations and entities are attractive targets to theives, blackmailers, and other organized criminals. Generic home users are attractive targets to Bot-Herders, who are in it to rack up a large distributed network of slave machinery for subsequent sale or rent to the highest bidder (spammers, DDoS artists, what-have-you). > Quote - If the reason isn't market share, then I'd love to hear what is.

Three words: Ease of penetration. If I'm out to compromise any given number of machines, which is easier: a) an operating system with numerous and ongoing flaws which can be easily exploited over a network, or... b) operating systems which require a higher level of skill and patience (not to mention risk of detection) to co-opt Either way, the number of users are in the hundreds of millions. Put this way: If Linux were easy to infect with something, one could very easily co-opt millions upon millions of high-bandwidth 24/7 server-based targets. Instead, we find script kiddies going after machines which may or may not be on when needed, may or may not even have a broadband connection, and may or may not have their hard drives flushed at any time due to a number of internal errors. HTH, /P

PS, Ricky: I notice that you're very heavily involved with MSFT products if Google is any indication (hey - I had to peek)... a professional thing, I gather? /P

I find the commercials rather entertaining too. I've been a PC (DOS/Windows) user for 20+ years at home and at work, but also have used a variety of other OS's. I don't take any offence at the commercials (of course I've used the term Macentrash to refer to Mac's and Microslop to refer to Microsoft), and can actually relate (first hand experience) with the humor.

Will the idea of being "cool" help sell Macs? All I have to say is SUV and Hummer (or H2). How many of these actually see any serious back/off road travel. Just try to get a Hummer, H2, or large SUV on a bonafied "jeep" trail in thick brush or trees, and see how well it does, and how much paint you have left on the sides. Yes, SUV's can be handy to have for general on highway, everyday use, but how many of those very expensive 4x4 gas hogs ever really see any off highway use. Why are they so popular? Is it because thousands and thousands of Americans have a real need for a 4+ passenger 4x4 vehicle, or is it because you are "cool" if you drive one? So yes, the "cool" factor does sell, even at price ranges in excess of $50,000!!

Will the Mac/PC commercials influence what I buy in the future? Not a chance, as I buy what I feel fits my needs best, not what is cool.

Oh, and I do own 2 SUV's and 4 PC's. Both SUV's spend a great deal of time off the highway (typically for evening/weekend work), and 4x4 use for travel on snow/ice packed roads. They are however the smaller 2 door variety, which are highly manuverable off road and in tight situations. The PC's help supplement the income from my day job, and provide some entertainment for the family. Right now having a Mac at home is't an option, since the software I use only runs on a Windows machine, and "PC's" are cheaper. If in the future I can run the software required for my consulting work on a Mac, and the cost/performance were equal to a PC, I would have no problem using a Mac.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

I would expect no less of PhilC than that he wishes to speak no ill of anyone. But I'm not as nice as Phil. I switched my company from PC to Mac after our servers were nearly wiped out by a series of virus and hacker attacks in 2001 and 2002. Although my staff still complains about cross-platform compatibility (Microsoft Office for Windows versus Microsoft Office for Mac) of large client spreadsheets and presentations with embedded objects, I've noted that nearly all of them have switched to Macs for their personal use. Perhaps it's still true that "once you go Mac, you never go back." I work with both Macs and PCs all the time, but with the PC's it's usually fixing problems (drivers, viruses, spyware, freezes and crashes, etc.) while with the Macs it's usually showing users how to take advantage of some labor-saving aspect of OS 10. The latter is a far more productive activity, to say the least. Mac users have a right to be at least a little smug because their computing is easier. Not perfect, or even more creative (rickymaveety), just easier. And perhaps cheaper, too: since my company no longer has the ridiculous system and per-seat maintenance costs that we had with Windows, we can put our money to work elsewhere. Our experience with Vista (we still have a few PCs) has only proven to us that Microsoft deserves whatever grief Apple wants to give them for taking so long and spending so much money to come up with a bloated imitation of an OS that's been out for several years. Vista is The New Coke, Budweiser Select and the Volkswagen Phaeton: a painfully clumsy, big-company attempt at a transformational product and image. Meanwhile, Mac OS 10.5 is on the way, along with (hopefully) more of those funny ads.

Can you get a mac now that is as fast as a PC? (I am not trying to be funny)

The Dual Xeon Core 2 Duo (fastest Mac Pro) is very, very fast indeed. And very, very expensive. I wonder how it would fare head to head against a QX6700.
My current "dream PC" is a QX6700, Intel BadAxe2 mainboard, 8 GB DDR2-667, nVidia 8800GTX. Costs about € 3800 including XP Pro 64bit and VAT.
The fastest MacPro with 8 GB DDR2-667 (and a slower graphics card!) costs about € 6000 including VAT.
Dutch prices.
I expect the performances to be similar. The Mac might be a tad faster, but certainly not by 50%.

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Yes, you can get a Mac Pro that is as fast or faster than any comparable PC. If you're buying in the US, the Mac and PC of the same configuration and performance are about the same. My setup (Mac Pro Core 2 Duo 2 x 2.66) was $2,500, plus an extra $800 for more RAM (total 4 GB) plus $400 for a video card upgrade.

Macs and PC's use essentially the same hardware now.
Because of the way the software is written for the macs some applications run faster on the mac. AND the same is true for some applications in Windows. In the end its about the experience and personal comfort. Both are subjective and therefore subject to differing opinions.

And to address the speed of the old power pc macs - my dual 1ghz mac outperforms my 3ghz work pc in most daily tasks. Why? I don't know. Now there are some tasks that the Win box is faster at but searching for files, switching windows/apps, launching/ quitting apps is much more responsive on the mac. ( both have the same amount of ram)

Where you will notice speed differences is on apps that take advantage of hardware optimizations.
That is why photoshop was able to benchmark so high on slower mhz macs compared to top of the line pc's. If the software (such as poser) does not have these optimizations then the raw horsepower will determine the speed.
It's like saying that you have 8 processors at 2.6ghz
Its meaningless unless the applications can take advantage of them. Poser will run faster on a 4 core 3.0 ghz machine. has nothing to do with the max capabilities of the machine, rather the efficiency of the software.

Basically if you are tired of Windows it not that much more now to try Mac. If you are happy stick with what you like.

The funny thing is that the PowerPC G5 processor architecture is simply better than the x86 processor architecture. RISC, an orthogonal setup, and a reasonably large register file are some of the characteristics of a modern CPU architecture - such as the PowerPC.

This better CPU architecture goes a very long way towards explaining the better performance/GHz ratio of the G5 Apples.

Then why did Apple switch to Intel? Simply because Intel has the financial power to switch to the most modern production techniques, like 90 nm, 65 nm, and in the near future 45 nm. Motorola couldn't afford (or didn't want to buy) the newest production technology, so they are stuck at producing chips at 130 nm technology. Which means a limited number of transistors per chip and limited maximum clock speed. The G5 has hit those limits.

And now for the really funny stuff. The original 8086 was a CISC machine. Intel has always maintained backwards compatibility with the original 8086.
But RISC has proven to be a better way to make CPUs. So what did Intel do? Starting from the 80486 series, Intel CPUs are RISC, with an added CISC layer to provide 8086 compatibility.
A true RISC processor doesn't have this kind of overhead, and will offer better performance at the same clock speed and transistor count.

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IBM was the alleged nemesis of Jobs and Apple in 1983 before the 1984 release of the first macintosh. Jobs referred to IBM as Big brother, and portrayed Apple as the thinking mans, little mans, or common mans computer. Apple is still the sole producer of the computers which run its software. As long as they do business this way they will never take Microsoft or Linux, and they know it. That's why they have specialized ads which attract their core audience - people who use their computers because they help them accomplish what they want to do, or people who like to feel smug about owning a computer. As a mac owner I've never understood the latter group.

I know, the Intel switch was a shock. IBM made the chips for Apple, but more and more, IBM was an Albatross around the neck of Apple. So it was time to switch. I am glad they did. And now there are so many options for a Mac user (you can run Windows/Vista or OS9/OSX), it's like heaven. They did a good thing. ^^

I went and looked up the ads on YouTube. I found a few I hadn't see in the 15 clip:

15 clips of Mac and PC Guy
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z7ReS_ur4Kc

Upgrading to Vista
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ci2D1ig4df4

Living with Vista
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80sWifG40B0

And here you can watch the CBS video on iPhone:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YgW7or1TuFk

Anyone else saving up their pennies for this baby? ^^

To tell you the truth I cant wait to get an Intel Mac portable. Man to be able to run decent GPS software! (Even if it is on XP via Parallels or Crossover.) Like I said there are some things that Windows just does better. GPS is one of them.

I will be buying the phone. Even though I hate Cingular with a fervent passion. I would love the ability to sync my phone through 802.11. Plus have a 4gb flash drive with me on one unit. (Hey I hope they make the flash drive a network share so that I can connect to it at home and at work from my pocket. )

I said unit.
(Does that mean I need to activate the Language content advisory?)

There is actually no sane reason that I should want to get rid of my Treo 700 for an iPhone. But I want one. I want one bad. And I don't understand why.

LOL. I hear you. I never sprung for a smart phone, but iPhone....

Ooooo.... Ahhh......

We're not worthy! We're not worthy!

Quote - Then why did Apple switch to Intel? Simply because Intel has the financial power to switch to the most modern production techniques, like 90 nm, 65 nm, and in the near future 45 nm. Motorola couldn't afford (or didn't want to buy) the newest production technology, so they are stuck at producing chips at 130 nm technology. Which means a limited number of transistors per chip and limited maximum clock speed. The G5 has hit those limits.

A couple of things: * The G5's were made by IBM, not Motorola. It is essentially a stripped version of IBM's Power5. * The switch to Intel had more to do with the fact that IBM couldn't build a laptop-sized G5 w/o boiling the user's reproductive glands, or that didn't require a laptop battery the size of a car battery (there's a reason why my dual G5 has a 650W power supply in it as standard). :) Notice that there was never a G5-based laptop on the market... Apple had been chafing at that for a very long time. /P

Sorry, my bad. The 68000 series was Motorola, not the PowerPC.

Heat is one of the issues indeed. 65 nm chips produce significantly less heat than 130 nm systems and need less power.

IBM does have the financial resources for 65 nm production tech. Maybe they just weren't interested in a relatively small market with small margins?
Small market itself is not an argument. IBM still produces AIX workstations and AS400 mainframes, not exactly mass market products.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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Oh no no, you got it partially - the G3 and G4's were Motorola tech. In fact, I remember back in 1999-2000 that Apple and Motorola were publicly bickering at each other because the G4's were stuck at 500MHz w/ no improvements in sight at the time. Heh - 65nm is almost old news by now... Intel has publicly announced production Core2 chips with 45 nm tech coming out the 2nd half of this year, and AMD will likely follow-up in 2008 sometime if they can get their fabs built and running in time. But I do agree BTW, now that I see what angle you were coming at it from... we had the same idea, just different approaches to it. :) Cheers! /P

Quote - I agree with Phil, I hate this kind of ad. Ths reminds me of Politics.

Funny, I never really considered that commercial a slam against PCs. I thought it was more directed towards the OS Vista....which is really hideous to work with because of that "security" feature that asks for permission [practically everytime you press a computer key or do anything...or rather try to do anything. Highly annoying and the commercial is bang on about how annoying it is.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

This is correct - Apples are (as of last year) built w/ the same PC hardware components (Intel CPU's, NVIDIA or ATI video cards, PCI/-X/e, SATA hard drives, what-have-you (AAMOF, my old dual G5 uses SATA drives and has two video cards - one from NVIDIA and one from ATI... the only difference between those vidcards and Dell's is the BIOS flash on them). You can just as easily install and run Windows on a shiny new Mac w/ Apple's BootCamp (which rigs the MBR to allow it and OSX to live together, I believe). PC hardware (as stated before) with Linux or other Non-Windows OSes on it doesn't experience crashes, malware, or most other woes on nearly the scale that Windows does. (besides, if Apple was poking at a fellow *nix-based OS, the guy would have a goatee and would likely be wearing anything besides a 3-piece suit). /P

...when I saw this I laughed til my sides hurt!

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things! ; )

LOL, now if she had a sledge hammer in one hand and a bottle of vallium in the other, it would be even more accurate.

That is one of the vista beta testers, she never uses a computer. :laugh:

From what I read she looked like this before Vista

That's the Fatima lady (the first one). You remember, the one who was seen on the BBC, CNN, and Reuters showing up in photographs whenever a disaster occured in Lebanon. There's a whole series of her over at thepeoplescube.com, a very very funny place for the politically correct. warning this web site is graphic intense and not fun for dial-ups.

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things! ; )

Nobody is going to buy a computer based solely on a TV ad. At least I certainly hope not. The purpose of these ads is not to bash PCs per se, but point out that if you are considering buying a new computer there are some very good reasons to consider a Mac as opposed to a PC. And they do that quite well. If they can get you to go look at a Mac, then they have served their purpose.

I have both a PC and Mac. You will have to pry my Mac from my cold, dead hands. The PC is just a constant source of irritation for me. I need it for a couple of things only and only use it if I have to. This is the second PC I've had and I have had more hardware trouble with both of them than I have ever had with any of the Macs I've had.

As for XP pro, it's an improvement over Windows 98 for sure, but it's still full of security holes. I'm sure the only reason I don't have too much problem with viruses on it is that I rarely download anything on my PC. The fact of the matter is (for whatever reason) you just don't have to worry about that shit on a Mac.

Yes, you can do graphics on a PC now. And do them pretty well. But compare what you see on a Mac and what you see with the same monitor on a Windows machine and you will see a dramatic difference in picture/color quality. There's some difference in the way they handle graphics information and it is quite startling when you see it side by side. And once you get used to that quality, you will never be happy looking at a PC monitor again.

PCs aren't better because there are more of them in use. There are more of them in use because Bill Gates made some smart marketing moves with Windows. And contrary to what someone else said, he made an operating system for idiots. It tries to do EVERYTHING for you whether you want it to or not. Most people who use PCs are not building them themselves, nor are they doing any upgrades themselves. But, yeah, they better live near a store with parts and either learn to do it or know someone who can, because something is sure to go wrong every few months.

You have to looks at what your needs are when you buy a machine. If your needs can be equally served by a Mac or a PC, then I'd recommend buying the Mac. Things will go much smoother. If not, then buy a PC. But, be prepared to be tearing your hair out every so often.

The guy in the suit is Microsoft obviously, and even looks like a chubby youthful version of Bill Gates. I take it the hipper Mac is supposed to be Jobs, but Jobs was never that hip, or that nice. They could add Linux to the commercial, but those companies seem to be oblivious to it. Someday they will regret their myopic vision, but that's in the future.
At least for now they provide a little entertainment, even if it is theater of the absurd.

You notice Apple doesn't bring up Server, professional, or office software in its commercials. That's because, at Apple, they are running Microsoft software on their servers, and Microsoft Office software on their desktops. Ironic isn't it. It's not as innovative as the i-phone, i-pod, or what ever Steve Jobs and company plaster the letter I on next, but it gets the job done.
It's a good thing Microsoft does that boring IT, and professional work well, or else who would....Apple?
Apple does make really nice desktop software for its computers, and I like to use it, but Apple isn't the best, computer company period. They do what they do well, and Microsoft does what it does well, which isn't desktop software out of the box btw. Windows can be customized to work well, but most computer companies don't seem to take the time.

Is Apple a cult?
Every cult can be defined as a group having all of the following five
characteristics:

It uses psychological coercion to recruit, indoctrinate and retain its
members
It forms an elitist totalitarian society
Its founder leader is self-appointed, dogmatic, messianic, not
accountable and has charisma
It believes 'the end justifies the means' in order to solicit funds,
recruit people
Its wealth does not benefit its members or society

Let's run through the numbers shall we?

Yep, see
http://www.macevangelist.com/
Yep, see http://cult-of-mac.utu.fi/
Yep, All hail Steve!
Yep, check with Apple legal on this one
Unless you own stock, Yep

Looks like a cult to me.

It was not IBM or Microsoft that made the PC THE office computer. It was Lotus 1-2-3.
It was not Apple that made the Mac THE desktop publishing machine. It was Aldus Pagemaker and QuarkExpress.
Those were the "killer apps", the reason a company would invest in IT. Those were the reasons both Apple and PC/Microsoft got their installed base.
The "killer apps" for Linux are probably Apache, MySQL and PHP.
All three environments are branching out. You can do office work on a Linux system, you can do desktop publishing on Windows, and you can run a Web server on a Mac (since OSX).
But all three environments still cater to their bases best.

So in the end it's still the applications that determine what hardware and OS are most suitable in your own particular case.

I think Vista is Microsoft second step in branching out to the living room, the first step being Windows Media Center. They're trying to turn the PC into a home entertainment center. But both Microsoft and the PC hardware itself have a long, long way to go.

What do you expect from a TV? You expect it to work and show you moving images within seconds of turning it on. You expect it to always work. It doesn't need updates. It doesn't crash. It is absolutely silent - no humming fans. In standby mode, it consumes very little power, a few watts at most.
The PC hardware and software still has a very long way to go.
Apple will probably make a move in this direction too. And Apple also has a very long way to go.

We'll see.

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Apple isn't trying to sell anyone Apple servers in their commercials, so why should they bring it up? And they do bring up Microsoft Office. They point out that they can run it as well as a PC. Who cares who makes the software? The point of these commercials isn't just the OS. It's the whole package. And it's aimed at the consumer level. For the market they are aiming at, these commercials are perfect.

Quote - (besides, if Apple was poking at a fellow *nix-based OS, the guy would have a goatee and would likely be wearing anything besides a 3-piece suit).

Here's how it'd look with Linux in it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVjpZtXGME http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJtS-FywqQ4 or BSD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjXkEHHIJBY

Dude those were funny.

BTW Cult meeting next Friday. Don't forget the Vista pre-release fliers we are supposed to burn in an homage to Darth Jobs.

I think the commercials are silly, but MS is notorious for slinging mud themselves (balmer sort of has a problem opening his mouth without attacking someone- and he's very high on the MS payroll and seems to love making outrageous claims). At least with the apple commercials, it's done in a silly way- that people know are jokes. When Balmer make's rediculous claims to large audiences (often time very misleading), it is done with a sense of honesty- even if it's very much based in questionable research or just pure spin.

I've used dos/windows since the early 90s, and have since used both Mac OS X and linux for work. My next PC for the house will be a Mac- it's a fine machine and does what it does. I seem to always have to tinker with my windows machine to get things to work- and linux....well, it is a great platform for C++ development and general use. But, it's hopeless with the absence of any commercial applications:(

Quote - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuVjpZtXGME

In 1995, that was very true. They need to update it a bit, though... not much the case these days. I can pop in an Ubuntu disk and it picks up practically everything w/o any need for drivers (though we call 'em "modules" in Linux-land; dunno WTF these people were thinking). > Quote - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gJtS-FywqQ4

hehehe... but take away all those linux-based servers and you'd get... No MMPORGs. No CounterStrike. No BF2. No real multiplayer at all outside of a mere handful... hope you really like Halo ;) (But for games? If it don't have a Mac port, it'll most likely run under Cedega on Linux). > Quote - or BSD: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjXkEHHIJBY

BSD is dead. Netcraft confirms it. (...cue lots of clueless individuals completely missing the reference...) /P

I'd think they would be thrilled to announce that just as they could MS office, they too could run Microsoft Server Software, or Linux Server software. If they are truly the whole package they might create a whole package deal. You are only part of the package if you are just a desktop os, but the commercial makes it easy to overlook it. Frankly I'd just like to see that chubby PC guy get one little victory...."Why Mac you mean you use Microsoft too, but I thought you said it was crappy, derivative"...... I hope you didn't take anything I wrote personally DTHURGRIF.

Have any of you seen this?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=qHO8l-Bd1O4&mode=related&search=

Server-side, it's a whole other dogfight. *nix has the majority there, market-wide. Windows Server (NT, 2k, 2k3) has roughly 30% split and shrinking (...and IMHO they're mostly small business rigs w/ little to no full-time dedicated IT)... ...and among the smallest slivers of market shares, there is X-Serve (Apple's OSX-based server). The reason Apple doesn't fare well in the server market is because it is rather redundant: OSX and X-Serve have a BSD *nix core... and there are already a huge number of *nix and BSD-based servers out there which are proven at the enterprise-level. /P

Most Unix using companies I know are shifting from expensive proprietary Unixes (IBM AIX, HP UX, SGI) on exprensive proprietary hardware to Linux-based clusters on PC hardware.
There's a BIG Linux cluster being built in Groningen (The Netherlands) by IBM. Over 3000 blade PC servers, dedicated to handling the enormous data streams from a radio telescope array. A very interesting project.

Novell Netware seems to have gone the way of the dodo. It was a very good at file and print services, but I seem to remember that it was a nightmare for server based computing. Maybe that's why.

Windows server OSes have always been targeted at smaller businesses that didn't have the computing needs - and budget! - of the big businesses. Windows server OS certainly feels the bite of Linux - but the proprietary *nixes feel it harder.

Competition is good. Linux is forcing Microsoft to make their server OS better and less expensive, while the Microsoft feature set forces the Linux community to come up with comparable features (such as easy updating). In the end, the users will profit, both MS users and Linux users.

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While we're straying from the topic:-) One thing I have noticed with the Apple OS X server software, they are putting a lot of effort into making it very easy to setup and easy to maintain. I've found that using the Software Update service fantastic. If you're a Super Server geek, then perhaps it's not the solution for you, but for small and medium sized schools and business with 5 to 100 Macs, it's got a lot going for it. That is a growing demographic. While "Market Share" is a great metric, OS X server and Apple computers generally, don't depend on share or market growth for maintaining profitability. So even with the smallest slivers they continue to innovate and develop robust solutions. While it would be nice to point to media advertising, I don't think they are the major contributing factor of the Macs current renaissance. The "Market" is maturating, people are saying "I've had a PC, it wasn't fun. Is there anything else?". Vista is saying "Get some Wow" and Apple are saying "Check us out, we're fun". I think people have had enough Wow and just want some fun.

Can we just rename this the Big Geeky Computer Nerd thread now?

*Novell Netware seems to have gone the way of the dodo. It was a very good at file and print services, but I seem to remember that it was a nightmare for server based computing. Maybe that's why.

*damn.. I loved Netware 3.12. that was rock solid. I once saw a server with an uptime of 5 years... the only reason it wasn't longer was, we had to shut it down and move it to another part of the server room... by comparison, the NT4 servers were struggling to run due to certain, shall we say, questionable things. namely trying to use Lotus Notes to hold an entire building firms plans, quotes, brochures etc in 1 massive database.. and the insistance of the Graphics Dept of creating their pagemaker files (90Mb plus) on the server... (Pagemaker insisted at the time that it create it's temporary file where the file was created. so you ended up with it swapping 90Mb + files back and forth over the network instead of the local hard drive...)

Remember when XP first came out? It went something like this: "I'm never upgrading to XP; Windows 95 works just fine." "I'm not upgrading to XP until they fix the driver issue." "We have had all kinds of problems upgrading to XP, so we had to go back to the previous install of Windows ME" Vista will eventually iron itself out, we just have to be patient. A new OS is a big deal, and Microsoft isn't about to take this upgrade lightly, so time will heal all wounds. As for Mac vs PC (why does there have to be such a thing?): Mac users can be quite vocal about their boxes, almost to the point of having a chip on their shoulders (some -- not all). Some will spout off about how bad Windows OS is, then brag that they can run Windows on their Macs (if it's so bad, why do you want to run it?) Others will gladly concede, like rational people, that the Mac OS has it's ups and downs and never trash talk the PC folks. I find PC folks to be less gung-ho about the actual owning of a PC and would rather talk about its sheer versatility. Some, however, will do whatever they can to downplay the usefulness of a Mac and use every opportunity to make Macs looks too expensive or too this or that. What it all boils down to is this: If you own a Mac and are happy with it, good for you. If you own a PC and like what it does for you, I'm happy for you. No one should bad-mouth their competitors to sell a product, so I agree with PhilC on this point. If you have to resort to a slander campaign then you must be trying to play catch up. I'm very disappointed in Apple for this highly misleading series of ads, but unfortunately, it will probably influence people to buy their product.

There isn't one bit of slander in those ads. But yes, Mac is playing catch up. Who doesn't know that?

And I really fail to see what is misleading about them. If PC people are so all-fired confident in your computers and operating system, why are you all so ready to get upset at someone pointing out some of the obvious flaws? I would think you should easily be able to ignore us poor misguided Mac users.

*" And I really fail to see what is misleading about them.'

*try no costs, features, even what the machines look like, included software, where to get them.... just a smug little 'skit'... they ain't adverts at all...

I would have thought details like those would have been important in an advert.. would'nt you?

Not talking about those things is not misleading. Misleading would be lying to you about the costs or where to get them or whatever.

Do national Coke ads tell you how much Coke costs, where to get it, what the ingredients are, or even what it tastes like? I think you are misunderstanding the purpose of these ads.

whatever. you think what you think and I'll think what I think. whats it matter anyway?

I just don't like 'Smug' or "arrongant' and turn over when the so called 'adverts' come on.

It matters naught, except that you were labeling them as misleading which is incorrect. If you had said uninformative, then I wouldn't have bothered to say anything except maybe to point out that these are national brand awareness ads and as such probably wouldn't get into nitty gritty details anyway.

i just love the fact that my pc is cheaper to repair and upgrade....nuff said

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

The only time this whole "war" gets to me is when I'm minding my business using my powerbook and some smart a$$ walks up to me and starts with the whole Mac/PC nonsense. In an airport once I had to tell the guy to stop trolling because he was not on the internet and I was in particularly ornery mood and I was going to hurt him. (layovers, delays, etc.) There was no need for him to start with me. I was sitting down charging my mac finishing up a movie that I started on a previous flight. (With earplugs!)

The sad thing is that any discussion with a PC zealot ends up reinforcing the, "arrogance" myth. I'm a nice guy, usually, and if someone asks me a non-loaded question I am happy to oblige. Most of the time it starts with, why did you waste your money on that? You could have..... Thats not nice and will not elicit a nice response.
I have never walked up to someone using a Dell or HP and bothered them. Never. I don't understand the compulsion to bother people with Macs. (Usually people just hover around and then decide to leave me alone. I'm not a very inviting looking person. Just every now and then someone gets a bug up their a$$ and deices to ruin my day)

I usually never take part in these threads because they are pointless. Everyone just gets pissed off and walks away with greater ill will toward the other camp.

A computer says absolutely nothing about a person and judging based on computer of choice is foolish. My friends have very similar personalities and they all use different platforms. Some Mac and some prefer PC. Some have a Craftsman drill at home others have Dewalt. Who cares.

Put some duct tape over the Apple logo. Keeps at least some of the morons away. Also, after giving them almost two grand for a computer, I don't feel like carrying around a billboard with free advertising on it.

i just love the fact that my pc is cheaper to repair and upgrade....nuff said Let's see: I switched in 1986 and I'm using my computer on a regular basis, i.e. several hours each day, mainly to make money. We have a hybrid environment in our office, about 10 Win PC, 1 Linux PC, and 1 Mac. The average administration overhead for a Win PC versus a Mac has been at least 20 minutes a week in the past 20 years. Most of the overhead is directly or indirectly caused by malware protection. I never wasted any time or money on any kind of malware protection for my Mac. Assuming an additional administration overhead of only 20 minutes a week for a Win PC makes in 20 years about 340 hours. I charge 200-400 bucks for my business hour and I'm my own sysadmin. The bottom line is: I saved around 100.000 $ because I've been using a Mac instead of a Win PC in the past 20 years. If I consider the superior hardware quality and backward compatibility of my Mac, the calculation gets even worse for the Win PC. Of course, your bottom line might look different, for example when money doesn't matter or when you're selling anti-virus software.

Along the same lines as VK and my earlier post on my company's switchover to Mac: Five years ago my kids' private elementary school switched from Mac to PC at the behest of a board member whose law firm was all PC and couldn't understand why anyone would own a Mac. They got what they thought was a great deal on all-new PCs and servers. But while the number of "seats" (desktop computers plus laptops) increased from 60 to 80, the annual per-unit and total system maintenance costs more than tripled over the next two years. It was an operating cost increase so huge (and unplanned) that it is now the second largest line item in the school's budget after teachers' salaries and benefits. It was, in the recent words of the headmaster, one of the worst financial blunders in the 80-year history of the school. As an aside, they are once again steadily increasing the number of Macs they have.

What I don't get is this myth about PCs being cheaper to repair. Where is this myth coming from? Ask any Mac owner not how much their repair cost, but if their Mac ever needed to be repaired. So... let's look at the math: if a Mac owner never had to take a Mac to get repaired, the "repair" cost for a Mac is Zero. Therefore, any PC that that must be fixed is automatically more expensive to repair than a Mac since Mac don't need to be repaired. I have 5 Mac. Started in 1993. Ask me how many times I took them to get repaired... go ahead... The answer is Zero. bB

Quote - Assuming an additional administration overhead of only 20 minutes a week for a Win PC makes in 20 years about 340 hours. I charge 200-400 bucks for my business hour and I'm my own sysadmin. The bottom line is: I saved around 100.000 $ because I've been using a Mac instead of a Win PC in the past 20 years. If I consider the superior hardware quality and backward compatibility of my Mac, the calculation gets even worse for the Win PC.

You oughta see it from my end. (warning: ungodly geek soapboxing ahead...) An average MCSE can feed and care for about 50-60 servers at a go, maximum, before their schedule gets choked up w/ patches, A/V updates, compatibility testing before each update, closing security holes post-update, and having to deal with every little breakdown that occurs. OTOH, I could readily care for and maintain the 150+ RHEL Linux, FreeBSD, and Solaris (and one Windows) boxes at my last employer, no sweat. The biggest part of my day usually consisted of a couple hours checking log results, firewall stuff, backup reports, and looking into any SMTP (email server) bounces to insure that any hangups get cleared. I have never seen any security-related settings open up because of a patch in *nix or Linux. The vast majority of my day could be spent listening to my users, tweaking the system when needs changed, and looking into new ways of getting something done. Downtime? The only time a *nix box needs rebooting is if a) the hardware fails, or b) a kernel patch goes in... and the downtime for that can be scheduled at sometime in the future about 999 times out of 1000. Windows Server 2k3 needs a reboot roughly once every 3rd patch (sometimes more, sometimes less). Each reboot (on either server) will eat about 10 minutes of downtime at the very least, assuming everything goes well. If not, you simply roll back to a previous kernel patch-level come next reboot in *nix to make it available for use while troubleshooting, but in Windows you need either Safe Mode (if you're lucky), or the Recovery Console and a lot of troubleshooting while the server is basically down (if you're not). Time spent on A/V? Well, there are a/v scanners that work in Linux (uvscan) that are sometimes required by the powers-that-be, but that can be scripted and basically ignored unless something pops up in the security newswires that needs a closer look (somewhat rare, but it happens). There's also an on-the-fly A/V scanner for mail services (such as ClamAV) which can be scripted to update itself so as to protect your Windows users from email-bourne crap... so I guess that counts a little. Security I could also compartmentalize security easier at the server level by editing one config file (iptables) and pushing it out, than the average MCSE could by clicking-in rulesets one at a time in IPSec, one server at a time (which many wouldn't even know how to do in my experience, so they rely on external products such as Checkpoint). There's also licensing... Windows Servers have these nasty little things known as CALs (Client Access Licenses), which can really add up as you pile on the servers. This is prolly why MCSEs (of all skill levels) average about $40k while the *nix admins (ditto) average $70K+ in salary... we can do 3x the work in less time, and don't require as much hardware muscle to get the same jobs done. Basically, you only need 1/3 the staff and 4/5ths the hardware budget to do the same job if the staff is competent. (whew...okay, all done now :) ) /P

Quote - I have 5 Mac. Started in 1993. Ask me how many times I took them to get repaired... go ahead... The answer is Zero.

I went through four: * a used Mac Clone ("Power Computing" 68K-based thingy from 1995)... got bored with it though. Got rid of it in 2002. * a used (when I got it) PowerBook 540 (which I gave to a buddy of mine 18 months ago; it was still working just fine w/ MacOS 7). * A Macintosh Cube (which I tore the crap out of to modify for a bigger vidcard, bigger processor, more RAM... I sold it on eBay in 2003 for $700) * My current PowerMac Dual G5, 2003-present, and still running just fine. Same repair costs as you, though - in spite of my penchant for frankensteining the things on occasion. :) /P

When looking after individual users, with computers on internet and networks we found 1 PC Technician was frantic with 40 - 50 users, without locking up the PC. While it would be nice if Macs never broke down that's not really true. On the pool of about 1000 Macs we support, (1 technician and 1 Help-desk) we have an average of 3 on the workbench. Most common problem is lightning strike, then hard-drive deaths. Our Power and Telecom system is all overland on poles. Taken as a pool and total costs, Macs are cheaper to maintain, but getting a single Mac repaired can cost more than a PC because: 1. Apple service centers are normally staffed by Apple Certified Technicians, so the labour rate may be higher. There may also be less competition. If you have a brand name PC and seek out the qualified service center for that brand then the rates would be comparative, but who does? Just about any old Joe Bloggs thinks he's qualified to build and service PC's. 2. If the service part is an industry standard unit, such as RAM or Hard-drive then the price should be equal. But you may find that a uniquely Apple service part is more expensive. I'm not sure how Apple price the parts but I think they must include additional handling and storage costs. They do have a very generous discount for module exchange. I always purchase AppleCare so if a part fails it's Apples problem. And a good insurance policy for accidental damage also keeps the repair costs down. I have noticed that organizations with over 5 Mac's may be better off not buying AppleCare and taking the risk of part failure themselves. YMMV. And yes, the Unix underpinnings of OS X helps with support and stability.

Actually I've had a few problems with my mac over the years. (Dual 1ghz G4 Quicksilver)

The three biggies are listed below. I have had other problems they were caused by me ;)

One of the processors went bad and it sat at an apple authorized repair center for a month while they trouble shot. (I told them it was a processor when i brought it in but you know how that goes. I did my own trouble shooting. They ended up changing the motherboard, modem, ram and wire harnesses before they changed the processors.)
I have had random problems with firewire. I thought i lost it completely a couple weeks ago so i went out and bought a fw pci card. after plugging it in and getting it all set up... the built in started working again. - there when $50)
One of my ram slots wont recognize ram any more. I tired different ram but I cant figure out if its a bad stick or a bad slot. ( i don't care much anymore becasue i don't have time to play with Shade or Poser much right now. And I have been planning on buying a new pro tower for some time. Actually i was about to get a G5 when they announced the switch.)

Then again I haven't had a lick of trouble with my wifes 867 Ti Book. Even the battery is still over 87% of original capacity when fully charged.
Soooo... As with all electronics YMMV. (As stated by Kaveman. (Hey do you have Geiko insurance?))

Quote - When looking after individual users, with computers on internet and networks we found 1 PC Technician was frantic with 40 - 50 users, without locking up the PC.

Oh yes... you couldn't pay me enough to do help desk support anymore. I'll stick w/ services, thx. :D I was fortunate - my last job had ab't 50 employees total, 3/4 of whom were programmers who could (and preferred to) do their own desktop maintenance. The rest were DBA's, project mgmt, web-user support, and CM types who were the same way. /P

Strange. None of Macs I have worked on over the years at school, at jobs, and family members own... does quick math roughly 53 various Macs over 2 decades, have ever needed a repair. The only Apple repair I have ever seen was for my sister's Mini iPod. She had Apple Care. She just paid for the postage to send the iPod to Apple. Apple couldn't fix it, so they sent her a brand new iPod! Now that's service! oO My Mini iPod hasn't had any problems. ^^ bB

I did some pc tech support back when I was finishing up my CS degree, and I was fortunate enough to the one Mac guy (I hated macs at the time, lol). The old Power PC 7x00 with which version of MacOS was terrible....and yes, those had all sorts of problems. Apparently someone fired Jobs and the company had several years of really bad leadership.

However, once the iMac (or whatever the bubble computer/monitor thing was called), I changed my mind. The OS was solid, and the machines were a breeze to get up onto the network. I think it took about 1/2 the time to get them set up compared to a dell. And I don't think I ever had to troubleshoot one of those, except to upgrade memory or hard disks.

I like the UK ads better. www.apple.com/uk/getamac/ads/

Re ccotwist3D's UK ad link, it's funny to see the ads done by another pair of actors. The identical dialogue is actually kind of disturbing. I think I like the American ads better in part because the PC guy is Gates-like and more obviously nerdy, and the Mac guy looks more like the US Gen Y prototype dude with a slacker-cool wardrobe. But maybe that's how the Brits see theirs. Now what I'd REALLY like to see is Fergie and the Queen do the ads. "Hi, I'm a queen" and "Hi, I'm a boor".

Quote - A computer says absolutely nothing about a person and judging based on computer of choice is foolish. My friends have very similar personalities and they all use different platforms. Some Mac and some prefer PC. Some have a Craftsman drill at home others have Dewalt. Who cares.

I agree with you 100%.

I've used Macs on-and-off in the past......and I prefer my PC. But if someone else prefers the Mac -- big deal. That's their choice for themselves, and it's all good with me.

BTW - I work in the engineering world. Most people in the engineering world don't know what a "Mac" is.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I used 8 Macs in 20 years, basically one of each processor generation (Macintosh Plus, SE/30, LC II, Performa 475, Power Macintosh 7500/100, G3 beige, G4 @400, iMac G5), with a grand total of 2 hardware failures (1 harddisk, 1 power supply) and repair costs of about 300 $. I still have all of them, except for the LC II. *This is prolly why MCSEs (of all skill levels) average about $40k while the nix admins (ditto) average $70K+ in salary... we can do 3x the work in less time, and don't require as much hardware muscle to get the same jobs done. Basically, you only need 1/3 the staff and 4/5ths the hardware budget to do the same job if the staff is competent. Very interesting. I guess the "Win PCs are less expensive" legend exists because many people (even IT pros) buy a computer like a can of beer: A smaller number on the price tag means a cheaper product.

I've had very few repair costs on any of my PC's. The vast majority of my expenses have gone for upgrades over the years. I've had a couple of HD crashes -- but that's inherent in the nature of HD's. That's why the cardinal rule of computing is: back it up.........

I did lose a laptop once due to a fried motherboard. It was a Compaq -- and the motherboard wasn't worth replacing for the $600 that Compaq wanted for a new one. Especially not for a ~2.5-year-old laptop. So I trashed the laptop.

But I've never had a single problem like that with a desktop PC. And I've owned + worked with a huge number of PC's over the years.

At the same time -- I've known people who had trouble with their Macs.

I think that it has something to do with us being imperfect creatures -- and therefore we produce imperfect devices.

I've yet to find the perfect computer -- or car -- or television set.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - Very interesting. I guess the "Win PCs are less expensive" legend exists because many people (even IT pros) buy a computer like a can of beer: A smaller number on the price tag means a cheaper product.

Sort of... The reason Windows is more prevalent among smaller businesses is because it doesn't take as much know-how to knock one up and get it running (now securing it properly and keeping it that way? That's another matter...) For smaller businesses with light-duty apps and little-to-no Internet connection from the server? After an initial contracted setup, it can be maintained day-to-day by the company accountant, and then calling Geek Squad when anything really hairy comes up that either a reboot or Windows Update won't fix. For a small business with a small budget (and a much higher tolerance for risk), this makes sense to the business owner. The reason *nix has a strong hold on larger businesses is different - *nix is as efficient as all hell - and not just in how many hours an admin spends on it. A typical server (Dell, HP, whatever) costs the same to the corporation either way (comes with no OS since the corp usually has the requisite site licenses). But - a *nix-based OS doesn't swallow 20-40% of the resources in feeding a GUI that no one but the admin uses, and doesn't require 5-10% more of the CPU cycles to get lost in keeping, say, Norton A/V Corporate scanning and network bandwidth (usually eaten at night) to keep its signatures updated. Open Source *nix kernels can then be re-compiled and trimmed of any modules you don't need or use, freeing up a ton of RAM that you can put to use towards the programs you bought the server to run (up to 50% less overhead than the default kernel uses, depending on what you do with it. So what does all this mean in English? Well, it means that if your department bought an Oracle license, and need servers to run it on, so that it can run a huge-arsed database for a project, it's nice when you can squeeze out as much 'oomph' as you can from the hardware, lowering the overall pricetag and Total Cost of Ownership a bit - helping to bring it in under budget. Thing is, it takes a bit more know-how to run a *nix server farm (pointing-and-clicking one's way through installation, tweaking, or troubleshooting is simply not an option), which means that it's going to cost a little more to hire someone who knows it well enough. Then again, that someone can handle many times the servers, so it still comes out cheaper in the end for large-scale operations. /P

The upcoming Longhorn servers look very interesting, by the way.
At least one version will come without a GUI. You're right, Peng, why spend RAM and CPU on a GUI that is almost never used (if things go well). And if you want a GUI for management, why not run it on a workstation and administer the server remotely?
And the new command line shell looks promising indeed. More than one hardcore Unix fan has admitted that the Longhorn shell has all the possibilities of the Unix shells, plus quite a few handy tricks that they miss in Unix.
I haven't played with any Longhorn beta yet, and I don't know how well it does when it comes to security. But those guys in Redmond know that they won't be able to sell a new server OS that isn't at least reasonably secure.

As for scripting, I agree that most MCSE's don't know scripting. You can script the hell out of a Windows 2000/2003 server, just like you can - and must - do with Unix. But the run-of-the-mill Windows sysadmin doesn't know how to do that. Not a problem when administering a small network, but a definite problem for larger networks.

Case in point - my brother had to migrate 150 users to another domain. Windows 2000 server systems at the time. He COULD have done it by hand. Instead, he wrote a script. Took about the same amount of time as doing the migration by hand.
That script came in very handy two years later, when 8000 users had to be migrated.

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Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: OT: Apple's PC & Mac guy commercials and Vista