While I’m often the first to praise the incredibly supportive nature of Poser community at large, I am noticing a growing trend that I find quite disconcerting. 

It’s not an uncommon occurrence for Poser beginners to post ‘how-to’ questions. Unfortunately these are quite often responded to with ‘go here…buy this’ or something to this effect.

Most Poser users don’t have infinite disposable incomes.

My two cents. Friendly rant over.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

To be honest  this hobby in general is not a cheap one.  I know when I got into it I never thought I'd spend so much money.  My only advise if you want a render to look a certain way, you need to spend some money.  Bottom line.  That includes other programs such as CS2 and PSP and those aren't cheap either.  It's just an expensive hobby.

As a hobby it's a lot easier and quicker to buy stuff, if you have the time and patience to learn how to make your own models and textures then that's great and you won't need to buy as much stuff but I think for the pure hobbyist [like myself for the most part] it's easier [not cheaper maybe] to buy what I want when I want it!
Just my opinion, nothing more!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Modelling can be a hobby.
Making textures can be a hobby.

Assembling payed ready to go models, textures, poses and lightsets to create uniform pictures is another hobby.

---

If one knows how to scrounge, then it's not so expensive; but the learning takes time and patience.  Also, nmuch depends on which figures one wishes to use.  Dork and Posette still have a lot of free stuff, and come with a ready made wardrobe, and have a few good ready made head and body morph target built in to the stock figures.
Adding to these two free figures, one can download both Domus and NEAenaby pitklad (Available for FREE at Planit3D), which come with a whole slew of even more morph targets.  Insead of such expensive paint apps as PS and PSP, there is GIMP fo free and maybe a couple of others. but learning these does take time and effort.
If one has the P5 Judy and Don, then there are not only free morphs and clothes, but PhilC's free demo Wardrobe Wizard can convert all of Posette's and Dork's clothes to work with them as well.  And, if one isn't enamored with Judy's face, there are the Neja and Wiktorija clones to work with instead, which use all of Posette's and V3's head morphs respectively (Also available at Planit3D).
One yhing though IS a necessity, one needs to read and absorb all those wonderful tutorials by Dr. Geep, especially the ones dedicated to building your own props out of Poser Primitives.
This hobby doesn't need to be expensive at all, one just needs to learn to scrounge, -and not be fooled by high-end advice.
David P. Hoadley

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Besides a lot of free stuff as clothes, morphs and props. There are also free alternative software which you can use to make you own stuff:

Painting and texturing : The Gimp.
Modelling: wings3D, animator, blender, moi3D(beta).
UV-mapping: UV-mapper classic.

The hobby is as expensive as you make it.

regards,

Thijs

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

In the wings3d forum here, click on the forum banner at the top and it will take you to the site where you can download wings3d for free. It's a pretty good modeler, and I strongly recomment that you try your hand ay modeling and/or texturing with free programs before you lay out any money for the ones that cost. (that way if it turns out not to be your thing, you haven't wasted money on something you can't use).

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

Oh man the main app's have tons of books,CD's to buy.

http://www.3dlinks.com/ one of the sites thay advertise at.

but in any app when ya ask something there always some one to sell you the answer.

Love makes the world go around but $$$ grease's the axels.

 

for $$$ meshes,the prices will make ya wallet cry.

http://www.turbosquid.com/

 

Anyways

for Poser there is a un ending supply of sexy anything.free or sold.

This is great if ya want pin ups.

there is alot of pretty stuff.

but post apocalypse sci-fi cities,props and cloths.

not much out there so ya make ya own or modify someone else's stuff.

not many mechs.

 

and ya have v3,4 always sexy all inj's she looks 25 give or take a year.

where our the 18 to 20 year olds ?

then ya have V3 anime.hiro has very little anything.

 

oh and it will drive u nuts searching the market place.

put in A3 hair and ya get V3 shoes.

so ya search for days.

 

but I wish I had a few $$ to spend

 

RorrKonn
http://www.atomic-3d.com

============================================================ 

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

It's not as exspensive as you may think. I only do minor colour correction for my pieces. Most of the work is done in pooser/Vue itself. With the correct lighting (My favourite IBL set is free), Your material room settings, and your reder preferences.And all the tutorials I learned from were online and free. (I don't own a poser how-to book).

Quote - While I’m often the first to praise the incredibly supportive nature of Poser community at large, I am noticing a growing trend that I find quite disconcerting. 

It’s not an uncommon occurrence for Poser beginners to post ‘how-to’ questions. Unfortunately these are quite often responded to with ‘go here…buy this’ or something to this effect.

 

I haven't seen this as a general rule, although, i have seen an increase in the promotion of a book or two. not by the authors, but by the users/owners.

The books get suggested most often when the question is broad or concerning a complex process.

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

Quote - Modelling can be a hobby.
Making textures can be a hobby.

Assembling payed ready to go models, textures, poses and lightsets to create uniform pictures is another hobby.

 

And quite a valid one. About 2/3 of the art I've created is related, in one way or another, to illustrations of RPGs I'm involved in. If I had to create it all from scratch, I would possibly be nearly ready to render my very first single-character scene.

I'm one of those who regularly recommends a certain book.

When someone asks a question like "how do I rig Poser figures" in the forums, I could answer that question. By copying the text of two or three chapters of that book. I don't think that's kosher, so I recommend the book instead.

"Give a man a fish, and you'll feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish, and you'll feed him for the rest of his life."
I usually don't recommend buying a "fish" (a marketplace model or texture), but I regularly recommend buying "good fishing gear" (that book, some tools).

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

I see the buy trend more often than help these days. Many older members I have chatted with have noticed this too.

Good for merchants, not that good for the community as a whole. Many don't want to learn. They want it done for them. I have seen and recieved myself, insults from these people for trying to help. So I think many are finding it easier to point them to the marketplace and not bother to tell how to do it themselves. Others are newbies that that is all they know and in thier way trying to help.

There are those that feel the need to push thier friends stuff in every thread they can and the merchants that do the same thing. There are also those that think that you should buy the most expensive item to do what you need even if there is a cheeper or free item that does the same thing.

Pointing out a certain Poser rigging book that has been around for a few years is a good thing. Many of the others are just rehashed topics that have already been discussed on the foums of all the sites and are making money off of others ideas. Which may be the way for newbie  to go because the forums are not the exchanging of ideas it was in the past. Forums now seem to be focused more on Spaming, Promoting freinds and OT's. That was always there in the background but seems to be the main theme these days.

"My opinion may not reflect the opinion of the popular few."

Poser comes with a manual & there are many, many Poser tuts online, you just got to take the time to read them & find them. This is how I learned. I didn't expect anyone to hold my hand. I find it easier to do things on my own. Poser is a commercial product that everyone wants to make money off of.

A straight Poser help forum without commercial plugs to buy is rare these days.

I don't feel comfortable telling users the free way to do it, if it means a merchant losing a sale. the reason all of these poser sites exist is to sell poser content, which is not mutually exclusive with various conceits about community or camaraderie. it might be nice to return to 96, when nobody but fractal or zygote was trying to sell any poser content, but it ain't gonna happen :lol: the downside (having "gimmees" show up here every five minutes, wanting to be spoon-fed freebies) may be almost as annoying to some as the constant flogging of merchandise here :lol:

"I don't feel comfortable telling users the free way to do it, if it means a merchant losing a sale.
the reason all of these poser sites exist is to sell poser content, which is not mutually exclusive with various conceits about community or camaraderie."

So what your saying is it is better to buy than learn and don't tell anyone how to do something because it might hurt friends sales?

I don't particularly feel right telling a new user to buy anything.   Thats like signing your daughter up for ballet at three, and buying her all the most expensive parephenalia before she even know if she wants to take more than one class.

No matter what you buy, if you don't know what your doing, you still aren't going to really know what you are doing.    There are tons of free things out there, even for post work such as gimp, terragen demo for making backgrounds, and of course more free tutorials and poser items abound all over the net.

One should learn to walk before they try to run.  I would think merchants would PREFER a more educated user, who is buying a product they know they want........ not something they are purchasing to make "instant art"....... then be dissapointed that such a purchase is not what they really needed.........

Nor could it do what they expected.

You won't really know how each purchased item "might" be, until you work with enough items to understand their limitations.  

When I was just getting into the hobby, I was pretty much flat broke (I borrowed $200 from my daughter to buy my first copy of Poser 4) so I was pretty much dependent on freebies. It was pretty frustrating when I would ask for advice, or where I could find certain things and people would refer me to pay-for stuff  Although when I did have money I would buy stuff.
That's why I first got into Wings3d, so I could start making my own stuff (many of which I've subsequently offered as freebies, primarily for the benefit of the people jsut getting started who are now in the same spot I was in before).
I realise that the freestuff frequently competes with existing commercial products, but so do other commercial products being sold for lower prices). But life is always that way. Everyone trying to sell their stuff, and everyone trying to save as much money as they can. If anything, competing freestuff can be seen as a wake-up call to improve the commercial products to make them worth paying extra for.

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

Hi ClawShrimp

If you have any poser questions you can always e-mail me at    chieftanoclan7@sbcglobal.net

Cheers,
Patorak

Wow!

I thoroughly appreciate the feedback, and was pleasantly surprised with the variety of responses.

Of course modelling your own figures and props would take an age, but it’s the technical, Poser specific knowledge that I find isn’t being shared, but rather ‘sold’.

How do I make this surface reflective?

How do I imitate fur/fuzz?

How do I use Sub Surface Scattering and Ambient Occlusion effectively?

…etc

These and many more aren’t questions I have asked, but have seen asked by others. Quite often, rather than explaining Nodes and their uses, one will be pointed towards a purchasable texture pack, or Python Script.

I think it’s important to understand the fundamentals behind the tools you are using. I fear that many new Poser users will never truly grasp what it is ‘happening’ when they double-click their newly purchased gizmo.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

it's not only trying to make a buck for a friend, there are some questions that for a newbie /user to explain could be more confusing then pointing them in the direction of a tool already created to do what they ask like "I want clothes for character x to fit character y" you could try to explain magnets and scaling and scripts or you could say there is a tool out already for x amount of dollars that will do that for you with a shallow learning curve, or if they ask i want texture for character "A" to go on character "B" then who can explain how to do that without saying well there is tool z that was created for that, but it cost x amount. poser has developed to do many things and the creators of these tools should be rewarded for making such tasks easy i am not helping a friend make a buck by telling someone where to find the right tool for the right job i will also point them to all the tutes but i will also inform them that someone already invented the wheel if you don't want to recreate it 

also a lot of free items are not for commerical purpose so that may not be helpful to them
but I will point it out anyhow.
so it is up to the user if they want to purchase, make their own, or use a freebie
but you can't not let them know of something that may help their cause just because it come with a price
put the ball in their court let them decide if they want to learn to do the task for themselves or do they want to complete their goal with a tool/item already created

But to point in the direction of a GOOD how to book is invaluable that way they have all the means to produce what the want then they can read, re read and read again without asking the same question over and over again in the forum then wonder why people stop responding

just my 2cents

You might as well PAY attention, because you can't afford FREE speech

Hi ClawShrimp,

Check out    www.cgtalk.com    in the sub category General Techniques_ Texturing and surfacing,  Leigh Van der Byl has a free lesson that covers texturing.  It's for high end apps but can be adapted for poser.  Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Patorak

Thanks Patorak.

I started this thread not to gain advice on texturing (I enjoy working things out for myself), but to represent those new to Poser.

I'm sure your link will be useful though, to myself and anyone else reading this thread (added to my favourites to look at later).

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

You're welcome ClawShrimp

You are right on target CS. "Go buy this," is a horrible, horrible answer. I haven't spent much money on 3D, but when I have, it's been on largely on programs, just a few bucks on content, and that's over a period of years.

The hobby is whatever anyone wants to do with it, but I like doing as much as I can on my own.

Warning! Personal opinion to follow. This doesn't reflect the views of my employers nor of Renderosity:

I'd just like to chime in and add that while I do notice alot of folks saying, "go buy" I also notice more and more new users  (and some old ones) who simply refuse to use the Search engine or even google or (gasp!) their PROGRAM MANUAL for that matter.  I mean, much of what I learned about 3d I taught myself. Some of it came from books but alot of it came from searching for the thing I needed to know and in doing so, finding a site or person who could explain it. The  rest was just plain old trial and error. I mean, really, what's the harm in trying the Fast Scatter shader to see what it does? Where's the harm in trying the cloth room or face room to see what they do?  I run into it every day (it's my job, afterall). Half the things I help people with are either already explained in the manual, posted on the net in a tutorial or could be discovered via good ol' fashioned trial and error.  The problem these days is that many don't bother trying anymore. They just want a quick fix or a simple answer to not so simple questions (or...really really simple ones that barely register as serious questions). 

So, the blame can go both ways, I think. Just as we can shake a finger at the members quick to sell something, we should really shake a finger at those members who don't bother trying to resolve a question on their own first. I mean, that's why we have UNDO. We're artists, most of us anyway, experimentation is supposed to be in our nature.

That's how I learned most of what I do. Trial and error, search or RTFM. It looks more like people want the quick fix/solution. Like someone said they don't want to learn to use magnets to fit cloths. An already made app to auto do that is better. Now clothing fitting is only one use of magnets. But they will never know what a magnet can really do.

I read so many comments about people that never use the material nodes, just the basic materials, same with the cloth room, hair room and face room, let alone learn the setup room or create an animation. Just lazy or can't bother because they know someone will do it for them.

I wonder if poser users are really happy with the quick fix solution scripts? 

Though this thread could go on a whole other tangeant i'll try to stay on topic here.

Someone above noted that free stuff might not be good for commercial uses.   My response to this, is one of sheer amusement, as why would a new user of poser be looking to do commercial work with a program that, obviously if they are asking for help, they dont even yet understand?

In recent months i've seen two posts go by, along the lines of , "Just got poser, need help" and i open it and they state, "I need to do a comission peice"............. are you serious?  Why on earth would anyone who "just got poser" think they have the merrit whatsoever to create sellable art?  Is it the mysterious "make art" button?  That would be like accepting a job and getting a bilboard space in manhattan you have to fill in 6 hours and only have a black sharpie magic marker.

I do not doubt the skill, and merritt of merchants, no I do not.  What I do doubt is the nessesity to purchase a dang thing before you even learn how to use poser.  Poser actually, and all by itself, comes equipped with everything you need already in it!  There really is no need for anything else outside of poser to learn how to USE poser.

Hey Everyone,

Speaking of the " Make Art Button ",  remember when laser scanning was supposed to replace 3d modellers?  Now,  3d modellers are being hired to correct laser scanned meshes.

Teyon - You're quite right. Blame should definitley be shared. It's not uncommon for a question to be posed when exactly the same topic is already active...sometimes on the very same page!

I suppose it's like any community, online or otherwise. You take the good with the bad.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

*"I wonder if poser users are really happy with the quick fix solution scripts?"

*I know I am. They save me quite a bit of time from doing it the long way. At least I know how to do it the long way.Quite often I slap my forhead after putting something together only to realize I had a script I could have used. Old habit, try something and see what happens.

Tiari, Thanks for that laugh. I have seen that many time too.

I just hope that you beryld are the rule, and not the exception.

I'm not asking that everyone do things the hard way - I'm not that naive. I'm just suggesting that when asked for advice, I think this rule of thumb would benefit us all:

1. Offer technical advice

Failing that

2. Point them in the direction of an appropriate tutorial

Last resort

3. Suggest a product

Having said all that, you all can and will do exactly as you see fit. I'm certainly no authority. Consider this then friendly advice.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Don't forget that some people don't want to learn how to make a prop, texture or poses. They want to use them. That's why I buy from the vendors.

It's like wanting a new computer. Sure I could learn how to make one but I have no desire to do that. I just want to use one.

Thus I buy it.

*"Don't forget that some people don't want to learn how to make a prop, texture or poses."

*That is true. sad, but true. 

Don't get me wrong, I have a long purchace history with to many different sites. I have a hard time not buying new figures and  I'm bad when it comes to hair. Just can't have enough hair as far as I'm concerned. I will buy things if the sale is good enough to save me time. I look at it as how long would it take me to make that over the sale price. 

I don't buy poses, to easy to do in the first place and I don't buy a lot of clothes textures, the material room is just to good. I make a lot of my clothes now, though I will buy something that intrigues me. I do have a clothing tutorial at poserpros in the hex forum under my prefered name of Tashar59. Also a Shade BackDrop tutorial at Shaders Cafe. Others here and there thoughout this site.

Then again, I don't need to render a bunch of soso images in one day, I rather render one image in a bunch of days.

This image is nothing but primatives, the material room and the coth was just a quicky model I made run through the cloth room. The reflected room was a different rendered scene to use as texture on a  flat square behind the camera to show in the mirror. The only thing that is not mine are the vase and flowers.

quote: *Of course modelling your own figures and props would take an age, but it’s the technical, Poser specific knowledge that I find isn’t being shared, but rather ‘sold’.

*I don't think that's true: check the "node-cult" forum and the general poser forum on RDNA and the forum of aery soul, or just the forums on Renderosity, and you'll find treasure on information about lighting, rendersettings, materialshader etc.
But of course you have to know how the search-engine works and otherwise you ask Acadia.

regards,

Thijs

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

I can see both sides to this but there seems to be a propensity these days to say "If you use Poser you should model as well" which isn't strictly true for a number of reasons, one being as MamaBird said above about not actually wanting too, Good point!

The other is this:  I get a call from a customer that wants a book cover doing with this on it or that on it!  I go "Oh shit" I don't have this or that!!!  I've got two choices now, I go out and buy what I need to make the image and put that on the price or I go away with a modelling app and make what I need!

Now which to go for:  I can buy, download, install and be using it in less than hour say or I can model it and maybe take days or even weeks to get it right [because I suck at modelling]

The answer is easy for me, buy it and add the cost to the customer!!

Don't ya just love the capatilist way!!!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

dphoadley @ Miss Nancy[
quote]I don't feel comfortable telling users the free way to do it, if it means a merchant losing a sale. the reason all of these poser sites exist is to sell poser content, which is not mutually exclusive with various conceits about community or camaraderie. it might be nice to return to 96, when nobody but fractal or zygote was trying to sell any poser content, but it ain't gonna happen :lol: the downside (having "gimmees" show up here every five minutes, wanting to be spoon-fed freebies) may be almost as annoying to some as the constant flogging of merchandise here :lol:

AND my advice to newbies is always: NEVER BUY ANYTHING IF YOU CAN GET IT FOR FREE!!
Which is why my figures are Posette, Dork, Judy, Neja, and Wiktorija.  As for the merchants, I couldn't give a Tinker's Damn as to whether they sell anything or not.  As for questions from newbies, I do wish that they would search the forum archives first before posting some of their questions, as most of thier issues have been addressed previously, sometimes even dozens of times.  but that bit of wisdom I gleaned through experience.

To put my money where my mouth is regarding freebies, I've spen the last week and a half remapping the Anywoman-P4WWG hip, so that texturally it will conform with regular Posette textures without requiring a lot of surgery to the texture.  If anyone would like to test Drive my remapped figure, and offer me any advice as to its improvements, either PM me here at the site, or send me an email: dph@013.net.il  And no, I neither wish, nor expect, any financial renumeration for my efforts.
David P. Hoadley

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

When in doubt, I just go to Doc Geeps' tutorials...;) I just should do it more often..;)

I don't recommend spendy solutions, because I don't have any way of checking them out meself. There's gigabytes of free stuff out there (I should know, I've downloaded it all..;), so get familiar with the product (the razor), before selling them products (the blades)...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

There is a link to 'frestuff' right at the top of this page. There are thousands of things there, especially for the non-commercial hobbyist. There are tutorials and freebie sites all over the place (this place being one of the biggest for a start). You need only buy Poser, anything else you can scrounge up somewhere:)

And I'm a merchant here:)

Just speculation here, but I would guess that a lot of the "buy product xxx" come from people who have had a similar issue/problem, and bought product xxx to deal with it, and don't know how to address the issue without it, or found it so useful they want to let others know about it.

In the case of recommending the purchase of reference materials, often the reference materials do a much better job of addressing technical issues that a simple answer here in the forum can.

I like it when a post has received both types of responses with a quick "here's how you do it", and if there is a product or utility that automates the process or shows how to do it in a detailed manner, it's nice to have the reference to it. Having the technical knowlege/experience from doing things yourself is invaluable, but having a product that automates this process, our that enlightens you with in depth information, can sometimes dramatically improve results and/or work flow.

Of course, there are also many people that get Poser, and just can't seem to find a place to buy the neural connector interface for the hidden "make instant art" button. Of course they don't realize that no one here will ever let this secret out :-)

Just my 2 cents.

__________________________________________________________

My Rendo Gallery ........ My DAZ3D Gallery ........... My DA Gallery ......

*"I can see both sides to this but there seems to be a propensity these days to say "If you use Poser you should model as well"

*I don't think that is quite true. It' has not been said here. I have read people freak out and accuse someone saying that and they never did. Just offered the advice on how it can be done without spending money. I have even had a pr##k at Daz freak out at me because I said I wouldn't buy a product because I could model it myself. How dare I do that and how dare I to  think everyone should learn to model. Give me an f'n break.

I wonder if Geep gets that BS for trying to show what can be done in poser.

Commercial wise, there are deadlines and buying something to use and charge back is the smart thing to do. To not learn what your software can do is just plain lazyness or more money than to know what to do with.

There are purchases that do help in the building of content and/or for post which are needed after you have learned the basic. I think it's the basics that so many seem to be skipping these days and not to mention the rude comments thrown at you when you do try to help. Why should we help someone if they won't help themselves.? I still help when I can.

"I love pain, if feels so good when it stops."

Hi beryld,  

I totally agree about the rude comments.  It's why I give out my email address and talk with people in private anymore.

Cheers,
Patorak

Umm Excuse me????
As you've quoted me in your post, I feel a little bit narked, nowhere in that post was I rude  to anyone, especially not you!
Even taking into account "no inflections in typed words" nobody could mistake what I said as Rude; Can they???
Deary me!!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Hi thefixer,

I didn't find your comment rude at all.  

Cheers,
Patorak

quote:  *I have even had a pr##k at Daz freak out at me because I said I wouldn't buy a product because I could model it myself. How dare I do that and how dare I to  think everyone should learn to model.

*That's ridiculous!. That's the same as when a chef tells me I cannot cook my own dinner anymore, or a carpenter tells me I cannot make my own table. I make my own stuff but I also buy things for different reasons: If I don't have the time to make it, if someone can make it much better,  if I can't make it, or when I'm just lazy and sometimes things are such a bargain, that I would be stupid not to buy it.

I have excepted long ago that I just don't have the time and the skills to make every model I want so buying is then a good option. We can't be all like Leonardo da Vinci who was a great painter,  a great sculptor and a gifted innovative engineer. Being a gifted innovative engineer is just good enough for me. So that won't stop me for making things.

Regards,

Thijs

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

thefixer, was not talking about you. I used your quote about the poser users and modeling thing. I didn't think you were being rude and never said you were.

I had a newbie insult me here not to long ago when I offered to help. Makes you wonder if it is worth our time to bother.

Then I stand corrected and apologise if I offended you in my last post, the quotation of my sentence and the following comments led me to believe it was aimed my way!

You know I remember when I was a noob and I was actually glad of the help here in what is effectively a minefield when you get into all the different apps for doing this and doing that and it can get quite heavy I suppose!
I guess if you're struggling with using Poser or Vue or whatever to begin with then maybe some folks just freak out when modelling is mentioned!

I actually use Solid Edge 17 in my "proper" job but I have no interest in modelling for poser [LOL].

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Not a problem.

I think we all realize, some are better than others at different things. I like modeling and I can UV map quite fine. I have to force myself to texture, I'm not great at it. Fashion is something that I struggle with. Hey, I'm more on the redneck male side of things. Give me a t-shirt and jeans with a beer and I'm happy. So you can imagine how hard it is for someone like me to create skin textures. What the hell does someone like me know about make-up. Morphs are something I can do just fine. I find I like doing that kind of stuff more than the making of pretty pictures. I was always one of those kids that had to tear thier new toy apart to find out how it worked. Guess you never lose that, no matter how old you get.

""Half the things I help people with are either already explained in the manual, posted on the net in a tutorial or could be discovered via good ol' fashioned trial and error.  The problem these days is that many don't bother trying anymore. They just want a quick fix or a simple answer to not so simple questions (or...really really simple ones that barely register as serious questions). 

So, the blame can go both ways, I think. Just as we can shake a finger at the members quick to sell something, we should really shake a finger at those members who don't bother trying to resolve a question on their own first. I mean, that's why we have UNDO. We're artists, most of us anyway, experimentation is supposed to be in our nature.""

I've seen this opinion pretty often here - being one of the "new poser users" I figure I'll chime in with my perspective on it.  People will often say - go look at the manual - go read the book - google.  One person once asked me if I ever thought to look in the manual.  Well of course I have , BUT half - no more than half of the time, I don't even know what I'm looking for.  You talk about the plethora of information out there, well that's exactly the point.  I've read an entire book and manual trying to figure out at first what the heck V3 was and neither mentioned this elusive thing at all.  My google search likewise yielded confusing results.  

Next onto the trial and error part.  For me that is a daunting task - work on something for hours and remember in poser we get one undo.  (poser 6 don't know about the others).  So if something goes haywire your back to the beginning - often times at this point I will ask because I'm dreadfully afraid of losing what I have worked hours on.

I ask also because you guys are the rl experts on this.  Your not as technical as a book or manual - I can tell you that I'm new and you can understand that and word things in plain english for me.   The people here who respond to me are 100000x more valuable to me than any book or manual out there.  I think after some people do something for so long some questions begin to sound silly - its hard to remember back to a time (if there was a time) when you didn't know what simple words like: model, mesh, bump map, v3 meant.  One can reasonably deduce the meanings of most but some get pretty confusing - I still don't know what ambient occlusion is, what it refers to or where I can find it in poser - and based on some of the threads I've seen here I'm afraid to know - I'll get there eventually and when I do you can bet your butt I'll be asking the experts some questions.

For me getting advice here is no easy fix.  It typically comes after searching for hours on my own - or just out of plain and pure frustration.

On the topic which the thread started - I've actually been referred to way more free things than pay things.  The helpfulness and generosity here should truly be commended.  I always try to remember to say thank you in my first post because I'm 99% sure someone is going to come along who I am truly greatful to have heard from.

So on behalf of all newbs - I apologize if I ask too much too often - but it's only because you are the best there is.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

LOL, I can relate to the V3 statement, I too remember thinking WTF is a V3!! Gradually I realised it had something to do with something or someone called DAZ so then I had to look for this DAZ guy as well, really beat the crap outta me at the time!! 
Ah! memories of time gone!!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

quote: *I actually use Solid Edge 17 in my "proper" job but I have no interest in modelling for poser [LOL].

*That's not exactly  the perfect software to make posermorphs, isn't it? Allthough... parametric design  for shaping breasts... sounds interesting.. (LOL)

regards,

Thijs

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Went and looked for a F16 cockpit. Hopefully free, or around $20. Found one finally (turbosquid), but the person wants $400.00 for it. No textures, and it looks bad. Taking a risk on $400.00 is damm well a lot. Can get me into a huge arguement with my wife to, and even some friends (are you that crazy?).

I am in the process of making my own, but the time/process is a lot. That is why I buy to save time. If it is more than what I can afford ($20-$40 and for V3 or even V4 will be little more), I will easily decide to say "forget it", and it is a loss. I enjoy my hard effort making stuff to saves other peoples time as well and for free (more to come).  Kurokuma made a F-16 aircraft and is sold here for a darn good price. The cockpit needs a lift. Actually most aircrafts sold here need a lift for cockpits alone.

Back in the day I use to catch h*** in the bbs and usenet for using windows95 instead of windows 3.0 let alone having a PC without being a programmer.

Don't see that either type of response to a post (barring insults or rants) is a problem.
Personally I think it has much to do with the level or mood of the first members who read a posted question and are moved to reply.  
If a real guru with a mentoring aptitude and mood (most of us recognize those who fall into that category) sees a question early on then often that question gets a comprehensive and well-presented response, whether that's info about a free download, tutorial, or even a commercial product, if that happens to be the best suggestion that occurs to them.  
If the first reply is from a relative newbie themselves,  They may suggest a commercial product simply because that's the best solution that occurs to them at the time, and they want to help or share something that helped them in a similar situation.  
If a specific response doesn't suit the querant, they can always clarify in a follow-up post.  The threads here are dialogs, after all.  We're basically enthusiasts pooling our knowledge.  Some people like the simplicity of a quick fix - buying an solution to a problem - and  that's what they're more likely to recommend.  Others, with more experience and familiarity with the resources already available, can suggest free alternatives or methods to accomplish solutions with a in a more do-it-yourself approach.
Plus, it's often unclear from a post exactly what form of help the original poster was hoping for - a product, or free alternatives.  

Cheers
Jerry
leather-guy  

. . . just my two cents worth - opposing views cheerfully considered and dismissed . . .  
;-]

There are so many valid points being made here, it’s blurred the opposing poles of the argument somewhat. The gray area in between is where I now find myself.

I don’t appreciate those that point newbies exclusively to products to solve all their problems; but equally don’t appreciate newbies who ask incessant questions that have been answered countless times before.

And one thing I think we can all agree on. Rudeness from either side is without question, unforgivable!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Bear in mind that a newbie won't necessarily have a clear idea of the right search arguments to use in the Renderosity forum, whose search engine leaves more than a little to be desired, anyway.  

I don't recognise either of these caricatures:  the ingenu(e) supposedly asking "incessant" questions here, or the respondent cynically recommending items from the marketplace.   I have, however, seen very brusque responses to polite questions, telling the questioners effectively to go and work the answer out for themselves.   (Whenever I see a reply that invokes the Poser manual, for any release, I know that the respondent hasn't a clue what the answer to the question is, but would sooner bite off his own feet than admit as much.)

If a thread bores you, you always have the option not to read it.   I have to say, though, that deliberately withholding the requested information, on the basis that it's out there, somewhere, seems pretty mean-spirited to me. 

Morgano,

""If a thread bores you, you always have the option not to read it.   I have to say, though, that deliberately withholding the requested information, on the basis that it's out there, somewhere, seems pretty mean-spirited to me. ""

QTF!!!
Amen brother ; )

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Agree with ClawShrimp. I am seeing the problem grow to. I like the rant, and finally someone speaking up.

Well now, a bunch of posts while I was downloading my Final Release of Vue6I. Slow going , but I got the download. I can see the howling in the Vue forums already about server crashes.

Just for the, you know what, I took a look in the backroom. What a waste of time that is. There are a couple of good links but not something to recommend as a great source of info past Geep,PhilC, Englishbob. I don't think I missed anyone else. That's how bare it is in there. What happened. It's bad enough that the backroom link is small and easy to miss if your not looking for it but I have not looked in there for a couple of years. I heard echos of my foot steps on my way out.

I can see why there are more repeat questions these days than there used to be. I can also sympathize with the frustration of the search engine here. I still can't get it to work right after all the years I've been here. I can never remember what side my tongue is suppose to be.

Hi beryld,

You're right,  It's cleared out!!!  I haven't been in the backroom for awhile either and I assumed all the tutorials were still there.  There gone!!!  Who's in charge of the backroom!?!

Cheers,
Patorak

I have no idea. I don't think its on the to do list anytime soon. 

I read a thread this morning. Someone asked a question. The first answer had nothing to do with the question and the next one was, you guessed it. RTFM type. Finally someone gave some real help. ( shakes head).

I need to crash for a bit, That dang vue download and install and checking what's new and fixed. I lost track of time. Past 6:30 am, I got to quit doing that.

Hi beryld,

Something is very wrong here!  Almost all the tutorials are missing and newbies are being directed to the marketplace!  WTF!  I smell a cash cow!

BTW  How's the new Vue?

Cheers,
Patorak

A lot of the tutorials may have been out of date or even dead links. It may have been the result of the big site change or the fact that many knowledgeable members have left this site in recent years or a combination of all the factors.

As for Vue, Sweet.

I try and point people to places where they can information or content for free. However, sometimes the niche is just too narrow and the only alternative is to spend some money.

Poser is an expensive hobby unless you know how to model and texture and can make everything you need for yourself.  While you can find many things for free, most people have to spend at least some money to keep up with their poser addiction. Some spend more money than others though.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Talk about rude comments check out Helgard "svdl, or any other riggers, a question".  You know I'm getting tired of these people setting traps like this to feed there own egos.

Sometimes,  I can see why a lot of the knowledgeable members have left.

I got Vue 5 infinite,  does it cost anything to upgrade?

yeah, since I started learning to model and texture my Poser expense budget has gone way down.
Now before I buy anything I always see if I can make one myself first.

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

 I see. Poser is a, " Keep up with the Jones" kind of thingy. Here I thought we had enough to worry about with the elusive, "Make Art," button and the popularity contests.

LOL Makes me long for the P3 days

I don't think Helgard meant anything mean by that. I sure would like to know how he did the tank tracks.

As for ugrading Vue, yes it will cost you but not as much as it did me. I upgraded from Vue4Esprite. I kind of wish I had waited. I could have used the money for a new computer instead now.

" If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have any luck at all."

For animating vehicles in Poser check out    http://www.hybridculture.co.uk/animvehicle.htm  It's his tutorial and used along with    http://www.atlantis23.com/erc_download.html   

I'm going to wait on upgrading Vue until winter is over. 

Now those are cool links. How I missed those I will never know. Thanks. I have a couple of my own models that I can try it on.

You won't be disapointed with Vue6 when you do upgrade. I did the buy Vue5I and get the Vue6I upgrade free. So I know the difference between the two.

I am very happy with the Vue 6 upgrade. I run Vue 6 Inf 64 bit on XP Pro 64 bit on an Athlon4400x2 with 4 GB RAM, and I am able to render scenes that were plain out impossible under a 32 bit OS (scenes that take 20 GB of virtual memory when rendering - they just work fine in Vue 6!).

As a Vue 4.5 Pro and Vue 5 Inf ower I paid less than € 160 for the upgrade. Money well spent.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

It's rbtwhiz's old ERC tutorial.  I wonder if Rob knows Helgard is taking credit for his invention?

Ahh, rbtwhiz, now I know who you are talking about.

Helgard is not taking credit. He points out that he had a lot of help from VR, several times in the thread.

I stand corrected.  You know I'd completely forgotten about that tutorial. 

Hi svdl,

What's the highest poly count you've rendered so far?  and How long did it take?

Cheers,
Patorak

Day late and 200 yen short.... I like to try to help, but more and more I'm seeing complex questions being asked by impatient people; "Hi, I just got Poser and I'm in too much of a hurry to even spellcheck my post but could you tell me how I make clothes so I could sell them?!!?" I'm old-fashioned, and I try to explain what a poser rig is, what is happening inside, how you can do it within Poser. Next post following mine is "NAW...just buy Pose-Oh-Wiz 1.4 over at DAZ. It makes shitty rigs but who cares? And it's on sale right now to Platinum Club members." The original poster thanks them, rushes off to DAZ. No-one ever gives me the slightest thanks for a detailed, carefully-considered reply that took a chunk of my time to create. And three days later another person pops up, and unable to use the search feature to find a thread that is still on the first page, they post; ""Hi, I just got Poser and I'm in too much of a hurry to even spellcheck..."

Hi nomuse,

I agree.  Today I tried to help an individual with their rigging and they decided to let someone else check and fix their cr2 for them instead of learning.  I feel like the sun is setting on the poserworld.

Cheers,
Patorak   

I appreciate anyone taking the time out of their busy day to offer their advice -- whether that advice points to the Marketplace, or whether that advice involves a detailed description of technical points which would be w-a-y-y-y over the head of most newbies, anyway.  Either item represents an attempt at offering a solution to a problem -- and is thus a kindness.

What I have difficulty with involves an implication that a given solution to a given problem is somehow illegitimate because it doesn't fit into a certain "solution template".  That "solution template" being that the only 'legit' answers are answers other than those which point to a commercial solution.

To me -- if something provides an answer for the thing that I am lookiing for -- then it provides an answer.  It's up to me to decide whether or not I choose to follow whatever advice is offered.

But I still appreciate the fact that an answer has been offered.  And I give the individual offering that advice to me the benefit of the doubt -- i.e. -- that their answer is given in good faith, and that they are responding to me with the intention of helping me out.  I don't instantly assume the converse -- i.e. -- that they must have bad motives for offering me a solution to whatever my issue of the moment happens to be -- be it a commercial solution or not.

As for people being ungrateful for the help that's been given out to them: that's life.  It can happen when you stop by the side of the road to help someone change a flat tire; and it can happen in the Poser forum.  It's not a good thing -- but I wouldn't tie my personal happiness to the attitudes of others.  Doing so gives them a degree of control over me that I have no intention of allowing them to have.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Hi XENOPHONZ,

I've got nothing against commercial products.  The only thing is when it comes to rigging there are somethings that need to be done by hand.  Spherical fall off zones for one.  Knowing this it's hard for me to direct a person to a commercial product.

Cheers,
Patorak

And it's great that you know that, Patorak.  The help and advice from experienced persons such as yourself can be invaluable to others.

However -- I'd point out that the average newbie wouldn't have a clue about what 'rigging' is -- not to mention 'Spherical fall off zones'.  It would sail right over their heads.  Sort of like standing in front of a group of 1st-grade arithmetic students, and talking about the finer points of differential equations.  It's great to have expertise in calculus: but the 1st graders simply aren't ready for that yet.  And so......they need to be patiently led by the hand until such time as they are ready for it.

If someone wants a quick solution to a problem, then it's perfectly legitimate to point that person to a commercial product which can provide that solution for them.  It's up to them as to whether or not they want to go that route.  They can always choose to say no.

Not everyone either wants to (or has the time to) study higher mathmatics.  Some people are happy just to be able to merely balance out their checkbooks.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

It's a tough job. Lots of people show up in forums wanting a one-button solution to a complex problem. I've seen them get ANGRY when they don't get a one-line answer. In one recent thread, poser content creators were accused of protecting their commercial interests by refusing to give out the "simple" answers on how to make and rig clothing. My problem is that always pointing towards the one-button solution (often as not a commercial product) misleads everyone into believing this is the only way it can be done. There are people out there with the patience and talent to rig and texture the "old fashioned" way, and I hate to delude them by only talking about the commercial solutions. (Plus I have a technician's horror for magical thinking; for any problem-solving routine that involves doing something by rote and trusting the result will be what you expect.)

What if we list both commercial and non-commercial alternatives when we give and receive help?

it's fabulous that the experts are willing to personally fix bad files, but unless they post the method they used to fix them, nobody learns from these mistakes. similarly, when folks ask for help via IMs or e-mails, it's no longer a shared learning process.

Quote - it's fabulous that the experts are willing to personally fix bad files, but unless they post the method they used to fix them, nobody learns from these mistakes. similarly, when folks ask for help via IMs or e-mails, it's no longer a shared learning process.

 

There's a lot of things that can go wrong in a Poser file. Figuring out what's wrong by posting back and forth, where the person asking for help might not understand what kind of information the expert is asking for, usually takes a lot more time than sending the file to the expert and fixing it.
It's true that the knowledge applied to the bad file isn't public in such a case. But what should an "expert" do? Keep on asking in the forum to post the correct info, so that he can figure out what's wrong? Keep on not getting that info, since the newbie doesn't understand? I've given up on helping this way on more than one occasion.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

Hi Miss Nancy,

You've made a good point.  Our forums have always been a place to collectively expand the creativity of poser.  Remember transmapped hair,  EMC,  Easy Pose,  Geeps latest tutorial...  Sorry justme strolling down memory lane.

Cheers,
Patorak

Quote - What if we list both commercial and non-commercial alternatives when we give and receive help?

 

That sounds like a great idea to me.

I'd go for either way -- some people with the expertise to do so can offer hands-on solutions; others can point out commercial products that will achieve the desired result.

IMO -- everybody benefits from such an arrangement.  And NOBODY who offers either type of help is 'wrong' for doing so.

We should all be grateful to anyone willing to assist us at need.

Something To Do At 3:00AM