Wow -! I posted a piece of my work over at conceptart. and I got 1 comment-
www.conceptart.org/forums/showthread.php
I deleted the image instead of getting into a pissing contest - wow! I am fairly new to Poser and I guess there are some people that really don't like it. I have to laugh because I have a BFA in Fine arts and have a very traditional art background. The really funny thing is that art is about the end result is what matters. Lots of highly respected artist use "found" images. I fail to see how a figure that has to be posed , clothed and lighted as welll as intagrated into a scene is "art Theft". My major was in theatrical design (sceneography) and we used every resource we could from light boxes to tracing to reference photos in order to complete the design and maqette. 

Welcome to the world of the art snobs, just treat them with the contempt they deserve. Normally the ones pointing out the "professional's" disdain for poser are not even close to being professionals.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

poser democratised the internet, in regard to 3D image creation of human figures. hence it's looked upon with scorn, and usually relegated to the bottom of the 3D food chain, because it opened up the 3D subculture that was previously the domain of just a few highly-talented individuals (at least in their own minds) :lol:

I can understand both sides of that argument. "The really funny thing is that art is about the end result is what matters" ..I'm beginning to think this statement is no longer true. How you get there is equally important. Try explaining CGI to someone who just spent 4000 hours carving his "art" out of marble. I don't pretend to have an answer either, btw It's just the new world we live in.

In this age of 'conceptual art', the process is just as important as the final result - in fact, often the process is MORE important. Having completed a deggree in Contemporary Theatre, where more weight was given in the grading to our presentations of our process than on our perfromances, I can verify this from a personal experience.

That said, to claim that something isn't art simply because you din't create every nub of it yourself is ridiculous. Again, many current artists are the creators of their work in concept only - the actual realisation of their portfolio is farmed out to others under their supervision. Or look at andy Warhol, who used other people's images or cultural icons as his base, and had people printing the work for him - his actual physical input into one of his 'works' was pretty minimal. Are people now saying that Warhol wasn't a 'real' artist?

I could say more, but frankly, these people bore me and aren't worth the time or effort.

jonthecelt

He says he is not trying to be a dick but he is very good at it.

Quote - He says he is not trying to be a dick but he is very good at it.

 
I would tend to agree!

You'll find a lot of insecure people about where Poser is concerned, us mere mortals have crept into their domain & stolen their secrets & they really don't like it, tough cookies really isn't it?

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

I really like pose rbecause the ability to do so many things quickly is just amazing to me. I wish I would have had this in college when I was doing set design - perfect way to plot lights and determine sight lines! Why would anyone want to do something the difficult way - it makes no sense - I hope to learn how to design props and clothing so I will be creating  objects from scratch. 

Poser is affordable and easy to use (in relative terms) and with time and practice, one can create some decent art with Poser.

I think the 3D artists who denounce it are annoyed by the fact that  the "unwashed masses" are starting to step on their toes and they're doing it by spending considerably less on software while  possessing generally less 3D computer graphics experience.

The fact they refuse to see is that although Poser is built on a foundation of pre-built objects, environments and textures, creating art in Poser is still far from "turn key" process.  As much as those 3D snobs would like to believe, it still requires artistic talent to produce decent results with what's available.

In that way, Poser shares something in common with photography.  Photographers haven't  always created what they photograph, so does that mean they're not real artists and what they produce is an inferior form of art?

Art is always going to be subjective period!
2 components of Art,  What the artist thinks is art and what the looker thinks is art!
You'll never get agreement on what is art, ever!!

To me Poser art is better than that other "ART" where some guy exhibits dead bodies and calls it art, it's not to me but I guess it is to some, likewise an "artist" exhibited a scruffy untidy bed with litter on it as art [Pfft].
That said I would never ridicule peeps for calling it art, because to them it is!  Fine but by the same token I don't expect them to say my art isn't art either!

Don't let some scum sucking biased arsehole tell you your art isn't art, if you think it is and other like minded peeps do, then it is, period!!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

By the way, post it here instead where it will be appreciated!!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Hi johnfields,

Some CG professionals view poser like some painters view paint by number kits.  I don't know why,  it's just the way it is.

Cheers,
Patorak

I read the thread and thought he was been pretty reasonable and measured for an elitist.

You have to admit first off you're going to face a little of that elitism in any art venue real or digital, and that you can accumulate some of it yourself if you don't check yourself from time to time, because you may just well earn it.

And second, he did give a response that told you what customs that particular site has for the art they post and share, and he wasn't in any way insulting about it. You should not be taking it to heart, but instead taking of value what you can from the advice.

Btw, I'm in no way associated with the site nor do I consider myself an artist, I'm actually just one of the hobbyists he's referring to in that critique. I actually started using Poser to lay out set and lighting designs for film school projects, then learned to animate with it, and just sort of fell into a passion for what I can render.

Please don't ever allow some butthead to discourage you from creating. Just because you don't model ever single detail in your scene(s) doesn't make it less yours.

Some 3d snobs tend to forget that dang near EVERYTHING we have these days has been built upon something else someone did at one point or another. (Unless it is indeed the first of its kind).

There are a lot of Poser users who have mastered the program that they started out using for fun - who decided to go on to other more intense program. And guess what - they bloody well succeeded in making some amazing things.

Just enjoying the Vue. :0)

lol, and theres other sites to avoid if your image has incorporated Poser at any point, but I don't think I can mention them as its probably against the TOS ...... you'll find out soon enough and just spare yourself the grief.. Though repainting a Vogue magazine shot, comping lots photographic bits in , calling it something like "Elf Queen" seems to pass muster in those parts. Whatever. Some people even have a problem with others using photographic references... " What, its not all totally out of your imagination ??? " I've also seen Vue come under fire as another "What you haven't crafted every single polygon yourself and dare call this ART" " Your just assembling other peoples hard work and calling it your own" app issue. Jeeze, some people just need a life beyond their own narrow views. Use Poser, and anything else that catches your fancy , ENJOY and IGNORE !! Concentrate on pleasing yourself.

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

taking the other view for a second, and trying to be objective... if you looked through the entire Poser gallery, what percentage of it do you think you would consider of a high quality, top-level artwork? Whilst I'm not about to denigrate anyone's work in particular, there are countless pieces in there which really have just been thrown together without proper consideration for composition, lighting, texturing or so on. Lifeless eyes which gaze nowhere - void expressions - we all know that these exist, and are not exactly rare, either. So because of these slapdash efforts, Poser tends to get a bad press.

In part it's because of the way it was sold - the very strengths you guys have just been praising. Tell the masses that they can create beautiful works of art with a few clicks of the mouse (as Poser's marketing strategy claims), and you'll have people taking them at their word and producing pap. 

Another reason Poser is looked down on is its, er... seamier side. Like it or not, there is a faction of Poser users who look at the naked figures on their hard drive and begin to conjure up images which make the mind boggle and the eyes water - and there is a good proportion of the populace who consider such work to be inappropriate for public consumption (as to where I fall in that spectrum - well, that's my own business). Combine these two factors - crappy qaulity porn images strewn across the internet - and it gets some people's danders up. And as with so many other things, it's the irksome minority who cause the rest of the user group/subculture to e looked down on.

Just a thought.

jonthecelt

You know I don;t usually get into these discussion for 2 reasons, I don;t concider myself an "ARTIST" of any type, I'm an engineer by training, and second I usually don;t think it's worth while arguing about what is "art" 'cause I only know what i like looking at. But if I see one more person write "Why don;t you make your own models", like Poser models come out of thin air! I MAKE Poser models, and sell a few here and there. I'm happy to do that because 1) I feel like I'm contributing to SOMEONES art, 2) It pusts a couple of bucks in my pocket, and lastly I just plan LIKE making models. In the same vein I wonder just how many pieces of ART that chap has made with 100% of his own models, backgrounds and HOME WRITTEN SOFTWARE? Poser's a tool, like a brish or a pen or the Friggin' SOFTWARE written by other people, that make ALL 3D ART possible! Frickin' arseholes should get a life and admire ART as the way ALL of the TOOLS are used and worry less about how made what tool!

sorry for the rant, I'm just having a bad night I guess. I would have written this over at that other site but any place that promotes that type of think ISN:T someplace I want to sign up for!

mike

Good point Trav.

Just enjoying the Vue. :0)

Heh, not only do I admit I'm a hobbyist, I won't shy away from the description of my work as pornography. The reason none of it is posted here is because it's all at Renderotica and Raunchy Minds.

'Porn' and 'art' are subjective qualities for free expression, and I won't defend either as more valid than the other, but that site is populated by dedicated artists who developed their visions from the ground up, and not piecemeal from tools and props that happened to be near their vision. I think they deserve a bit of respect, and I'm not in the least surprised if they look down on someone who hasn't put that effort in.

As to whether they have any reason to denigrate porn, they are free to imply and explicitly depict murder as more acceptible than explicit sex, and they are also free to smugness in their hypocrisy.

Why doesn't anyone defend Poser on these other art sights?

Porn uses cameras and video cameras!  My Gosh!  We should all belittle people who use cameras and video cameras because porn and seedier photos use them!  That argument doesn't hold air (let alone water)... ;)

So, even if 99.9999% of users of Poser were using it to create 'porn', who gives a shiite.  The means don't justify the ends.  The end justifies the talent by whatever means.

Every elitist should be forced to start by designing their own motherboard circuits, chips, BIOS, drivers, OS, hardware, software, and all of the content.  Then they can snub their noses a little.  Otherwise, they are cherry picking (more pornographic references)... ;D

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

kuro,
you're popping my cherry here.
snicker
sorry couldn't resist.

Comitted to excellence through art.

I think many people here are looking at this the wrong way.  This isn't a matter of art vs. non-art, it's a matter of craftsmanship. Arranging pre-made figures/props/textures in an aesthetically pleasing manner certainly requires skill, but it requires more skill to do all that plus make all those figures/props/textures in the first place.

In a production environment, the end result is all that matters.  Get the job done on time and make the client happy so that you can get paid.  If pre-made content will help you to accomplish that (and the license agreement for said content allows it) then use it.  However, the websites that show the worst anti-Poser snobbery are meant to be showcases for those who create their own content (even if the site doesn't say it right up front).  It’s not just the finished image that's important, it's the work that went into making it.

IMHO, painting vs. photography is an inaccurate analogy, because they are vastly different mediums.  Painting is the art of inclusion, while photography is the art of exclusion (I can’t remember who said that).  Perhaps a better analogy is fine scale modeling or model railroading.  If you bring a model built from a kit to an exhibition or competition for scratchbuilt models, you'll get flamed.  It's the same with pre-made vs. self-made content at those websites.

That being said, I do think those websites should find a more polite way to tell you that you’re not welcome.

Oh please.

Name one art snob who criticizes Leonardo Da Vinci, Rafael, or Michaelangelo (considered some of the greatest artistic masters of human history!!!) - among others - because they gulp employed apprentices to assist in or even finish their work.

Since they didn't actually do the work, should they receive any praise for the work of the others who actually did?

The end result is all that matters.  One can have a site that praises the work in creating it - then you should announce it in big bold letters - because everyone cheats to some degree (poor saps).

ETA: As a point - consider architects.  They can become renowned for their designs and engineering.  But they used standard materials unforgivably manufactured by others.  And an even worse offense - there were other people who did all of the work in managing and constructing the architecture.  Forbid!  This endless exercise in tormented artists is way dead.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Bottom line is, whether you or anyone else thinks my Poser or Vue "art" is crap or not doesn't matter a shite, what matters is that I have 2 publishers that think it's good enough to put on their book covers so I make a bit of money off it, sure I buy stuff, stuff I need to make the cover and that's no different than a painter buying brushes, canvas etc. or a writer buying a laptop to do his word processing, everyone in every filed of endeavour buys stuff made by someone else, that's how the World works!!
Take it to it's extreme, I need a new TV, what do I do, go and mine Tantalum first so I can start making a circuit board and components, then make the plastic box etc, I could go on and on but doesn't it sound so pathetic, yes!!!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Wheeee!  My second favorite subject!  (My first favorite is censorship.)

Well, to beat a dead horse, here goes:

Let the babies have their bottles.  Let them all pet and groom themselves like they are special.  You are not going to win an arguement with them.

I've tried my hand at modeling, it's f*cking hard!  I have a lot of respect for those who can make fantastic things out of polygons and nurbs and so on.

"Art" is the final product.  If you feel that your final image conveys something perfectly and there is no way in which you would change it.  If, in the end you feel it is done and does what it needs to do. then it is art.

If you did it for fun and you are reasonably happy with the result, then it is probably not art, but who cares, continue to enjoy your new hobby and never stop expressing yourself.

If you did something for a company under the guidance of their directors or production managers or whatever and it gets published, then it is probably "commercial art" and hey, congrats, you are making money.

If you create something form the ground up and manage to sell it, then who gives a rat's ass what the title is, congrats, you made some cash, made something you are proud of and made other people happy by sharing it.

Elitist this, and craftsperson that.  Who cares?  Let people create and express themselves.  I see the most wonderful things communicated in the most amateur images sometimes.  I've seen that most hollow thing in some of the best produced images.

Still, I am not one to judge.

Everyone has a right to express their ideas, feelings, fantasies and visions.  I will not rob anyone of that right and I will always applaud everyone who is brave enough to put it out there.

F*ck those who will put others down for not being this or creating that.  They are dicks and they deserve nothing for their elitist mindset.

Working in the TV and film industry, I once had a filmmaker brow-beat me for not using Macs!  When you watch a movie can you tell if it has been editted on a Mac or a PC?  Who gives a crap?  More elitist B.S.

In the end you have to post where people understand what you do.  BTW, I've seen many of these elitists slip a Poser person into their images, because after scultping cars, spacehips and buildings, they still realize that a premade human is much easier and better and will contirbute more to their final images.

Anyway, I'm ranting, it's been a crappy night.  A cookie to anyone who actually read this!

Just make sure it's a chocolate chip one when you send it!!!  ;-)

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

'Those who would be critiqued by 'the masses', would best be served developing fusion-proof asses.' 'Meddle not in the affairs of 'Ahhtists'; For the arrogance is great....and maybe one in a thousand is actually as half as good as they'd like you to think they are.' A little wisdom from one of my editors-in-friend. Actually, to be fair, there are two kinds of art at work here; pure and practical. A purist can spend 6 months doing it all on one still. That is the whole purpose of the excercise. Practicals have real world conditions do contend with (Jobs, kids, $$$, lack of access to training, etc), and real world limitations (Job is only paying X amount, and is due in 4 days, that kind of thing). I'm a Practical, and make no bones about it. Poser's my animation solution, mainly because of the available content and the less steep learning curve. Aside from pleasure renders, the only other rendering I do in Poser is preview animations to check timing and so forth. I use Vue as my renderer for lots of reasons, including speed, network rendering, native Poser import, etc. I write on paper, then go to WordPerfect 8. Paper slows me down enough avoid the 'IgottaIdeaIgottaIdeaIgottaIdea' speed loop that leads to massive, painful rewriting and scrapping of vast swaths of text. I use Paintshop Pro because I'm not quite ready to try and grapple with Photoshop, and PSP does what I need done at the moment. I edit with Premiere Pro and do post in After Effects, with help from Particle Illusion. Scoring is either from the Magix Soundpool DVD's or Sonic Fire Pro 4, simply because sound adds so much to animation, and I can't afford an orchestra (or a couple of old farts on spoons and kazoo, if you want to get picky about it....). It's the old 'content vs vision' argument. My concerns are telling a good story. I could care less about bragging rights to intimate familiarlity to every polypoint coordinate. If there is a 'cheat' that helps me tell my story faster or better, then it isn't a cheat. It's a tool. Neither path is right or wrong, they are just different paths to the same place; touching another person with feelings, or making them stop and actually think for a moment.

Wow! What a can of worms. 

I stopped posting at CG Network, due to the amount of patronising dick-headed comments that the use of Poser generated.  Some guy even claimed that I was somehow "disrespecting" people who produce their own models by using it and daring to post it there.  It's an age-old (well, as old as Poser) argument.  I've got a degree in Fine Art and have never met a painter yet who ground their own paints (never mind mining the pigments form the ground) or made their own brushes - you use the tools to hand.  I used to be a real-world modelmaker and special effects technician here in the UK and know for a fact that professionals use every trick and tool avaialble to them to speed up production.  To my mind, the amount of effort expended to produce a piece bears no relationship to how "worthy" it is - it's about the end product, and how you produce it is up to you.

You never see any of the best artists on these sites stooping to mud-slinging about applications - I looked up the people who made the most denigrating comments about Poser on my posts - not one had ever posted a single piece of work, which to me speaks volumes.  Archair critics and navel-gazers; like someone said, leave them to their toys.

My self-build system - Vista 64 on a Kingston 240GB SSD, Asus P5Q Pro MB, Quad 6600 CPU, 8 Gb Geil Black Dragon Ram, CoolerMaster HAF932 full tower chassis, EVGA Geforce GTX 750Ti Superclocked 2 Gb, Coolermaster V8 CPU aircooler, Enermax 600W Modular PSU, 240Gb SSD, 2Tb HDD storage, 28" LCD monitor, and more red LEDs than a grown man really needs.....I built it in 2008 and can't afford a new one, yet.....!

My Software - Poser Pro 2012, Photoshop, Bryce 6 and Borderlands......"Catch a  r--i---d-----e-----!"

 

A lot of you seem to be reacting heatedly. George Tirebiter and Paul Francis both made clearly considered comments about process and result. That site does appear on the face of it to value the process more, and you can also see that the result is also in a much finer league. On the other hand, the ones who are most vocal about keeping that purity of content prove to be pretty useless themselves for providing it when you go to find examples of their results.

My degree is in film, where many craftspeople like to grant themselves credibility by calling it a 'collaborative art' when you really have too many cooks spoiling the pot and overvaluing their own roles when they're really less concerned with making art than having a gravy train. The only film works that could ever be called art were made by auteurs with a single, unifying vision that survived to the end by not allowing derivitive interpretations to distort it in production. It's not really a matter of how much effort you put into it, but  how much responsibility you can claim for it when it's done.

And while many of you think the CG responder was being a dickhead, I do believe he had suggested that without making that claim of responsibility, no one viewing the image could know what credit the original poster could take. But the original poster, instead of answering the charge, simply pulled the image

Now I know some of you are going to crawl up my ass for what I'm suggesting here, but I haven't actually seen the results that started this ranting thread, nor heard how much of it the original poster did himself.

*Quote-Now I know some of you are going to crawl up my ass for what I'm suggesting here, but I haven't actually seen the results that started this ranting thread, nor heard how much of it the original poster did himself. -end quote

Let's see the artwork.

Photography is sometimes considered to be art and the photographer doesn`t make all the things in his/her photographs (usually).

Collages are considered to be art and a lot of them use objects and pieces of paper not made by the artist.

Sculptures are sometimes made using objects welded together or even just glued together and it is considered art.

I wonder if the anti-Poserites feel as pigheaded about the use of fonts. I seriously doubt that when they add text to their images, it is all of their own design. And on top of that, I doubt they credit the source.

It's in my gallery...

Hi johnfields,

Wow,  This is really great!  I like how you did the foreground to background.  It makes the eye center on the figure,  then travel up.

Cheers,
Patorak

To me, that picture is much better than a pile of bricks or an unmade bed or a cow cut in half etc etc.  It looks like a science fiction book cover.

Where did you get the ed 209, if you don`t mind me asking?

Quote - To me, that picture is much better than a pile of bricks or an unmade bed or a cow cut in half etc etc.  It looks like a science fiction book cover.

Where did you get the ed 209, if you don`t mind me asking?

 

Words of advice.  First don't ever pull a post, ( unless it's an exclusive and your client wants you to ).  Art directors lurk every where and you as an artist are in more demand than what you think.  Second,  " snobbery " exists everywhere even here.  It's a tool certain people use to try and cut down on competition.  Their words can't hurt you as long as you have your art as proof of your abilities.  Third,  post your work in 2D forums too. 

Quote - To me, that picture is much better than a pile of bricks or an unmade bed or a cow cut in half etc etc.  It looks like a science fiction book cover.

Where did you get the ed 209, if you don`t mind me asking?

 
sorry for the double post -
I will check when I get home tonite - I save all the zipped DL's I'm 99.9% sure it's an untextured 3Ds. but I can't remember where I found it

Was it a freebie?

FOUND IT! - Turbo Squid freebie-
www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/323267

It is a nice composition, but it's also something someone without a BFA could've done, and someone without raw talent could've done with some experimentation. And even the least of these are looking more attractive to marketers and media makers.

Now you may value this democratization of art, I certainly wouldn't be creating renders without it, but consider those who spent years developing disciplines and putting their heart and soul into applying their hard-won skills just to see their efforts and results disrespected by the market because of the cheapening supply of pop-art.

I'm not one of them, but just imagining it makes me wanna be a dickhead on their behalves. Before you go complaining about elitism, consider someone may have clawed their way to places few have had the determination to.

Quote - Why doesn't anyone defend Poser on these other art sights?

 

Because it ends up being you against them. Not all the members of those sites are as nasty .. but I'd venture a good 90% of them are.

I'm just waiting to hear those who look down upon the use and users of Poser to start bashing those highly talented individuals who have made the models we all use.  I personally don't care if anyone loves or hates my art. I don't make it (or rarely make it) for anyone else's enjoyment.

Just enjoying the Vue. :0)

This explains A LOT!  Okay,  let me begin by saying freebies are great,  it's like going through a clearance bin.  
Now,  poserites pull up your computer chairs because I have a story to tell.  See,  years ago some enterprising individual(s) went to 3dcafe and downloaded meshes,  poserized them then sold them as their own.  Well,  this didn't go over well in the 3d modelling community.  Lawsuits where threatened and said models were pulled off the poser market.  Now,  the 3D modelling communtiy was in a dilema "  Do we continue providing freebies to study or not? "  A solution was agreed on that freebies would continue BUT they would be catalogued and archived.  Here is just one site  http://shape.cs.princeton.edu/search.html   This insures the 3d modeller gets credit where credit is due.  In these communities anytime a freebie is spotted in artwork,  and said artwork does not give credit to the 3d modeller,  red flags automatically pop up.  
This is also what gave poser it's rep,  not porn or premade models,  but ripped freebies.

Hi kathym,

This post is one of the reasons I model exclusives for Poser clients.  The design is theirs,  I model from that design and work one on one with them for complete customer satisfaction.  And whats more,  when I'm done the model is theirs and theirs alone.  I don't even ask for credit nor do I blow my horn by saying "  Hey, that's my model!"   If anyone is interested in an exclusive you can contact me at    chieftanoclan7@sbcglobal.net 

Cheers,
Patorak

I think the mistake was to post it to a 3d and sculpture forum. that particular forum seems to be focused on physical and digital scupting (modeling).

I hope nobody bites my head off for this but Poser art (for the most part) needs to be critiqued similar to a photograph. composition, lighting, etc. Most "3d art" sites have people who model everything and are looking for critiques of their models as well as composition, lighting etc. 

People who make such critiquest assume you modeled some portion of the scene and are upset if you did not.

At that particular site it would be better to post to Sketchbooks, Critique Center, or Sketches & works in progress.

If you still think you would get negative feedback for using poser, you could negelect to mention you used poser and specificly request a critique of your composition, lighting etc.

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

I remember a time when metacreations stood toe to toe with 3d studio max and lightwave.  Raydream was the modeller,  Poser the animator and Bryce the renderer.  Checkout some of the back issues of 3d artist if you don't believe me.

Quote - It is a nice composition, but it's also something someone without a BFA could've done, and someone without raw talent could've done with some experimentation. And even the least of these are looking more attractive to marketers and media makers.

I'd like to see you do such a render, with any program, and have it look just as good. It'd give you something to post on your gallery here to give us no-talent hacks an idea of what a "good" image is. :rolleyes:

And not just anybody could do a composition like that, it requires knowing how to get a final image that causes the eye to focus first on one area, then move on to the others, even if the other areas take up more space in the image. Sure, you see the ED-209, but you focus on the woman first (or at least, I do).

________________________________________________________________

If you're joking that's just cruel, but if you're being sarcastic, that's even worse.

Marcus of Queensbury rules.  No side fights!

Here is the reponse to johnfields ConceptArt post.  Quote-

*Not many professional artists (in my experience) respect Poser, or poser "artwork". In most cases, it tends to be the equivalent to cutting out pieces of other people's work and pasting it into a scene. Maybe you could give us some more details about what specific parts you're responsible for. As an example, did you model that Ed 209 robot, or is this art theft? What about the ships in the background?-they look familiar

I'm not trying to be a dick, but if you want to work in 3d, you'd best be served by making your own models. -both for practical learning purposes, and artistic credibility. If you're just a hobbyist and just having some fun, then I suggest taking it to a poser specific forum.
Sorry if I've been harsh, but if I didn't say this stuff, someone else would have stepped in and done so.

*It seems to me they are calling in to question the freebie models he used,  not the artwork itself.

Lets see if I can remember the bits and pieces 
turbo squid - ED-209 - re textured with Worn leather matl and colors changed , details added in p-shop.
Daz -V3- re posed and added new skin textures
Project Lara - gunbelt - modified and re textured
RDNA- helmet and goggles- re textured and modified
she hulk tunic 
Background - small piece used from a freebie jpg. here on R'sity
Cannot for the life of me remember where the back ground ships came from -I think as a resource from Deviantart - heavily modified and detailed.
Background and ED-209 were rendered and saved as a tif. imported into p-shop and cleaned up and detailed then imported as a background in Poser and the figure was rendered matching the light source and color from the first render. Changed the camera to a more amorphic lens size to get the "heroic" look, applied careful depth cueing to get depth of field .
I do not think you are required to have a BFA in order to do this - on the contrary this program did not exisist when I was in college ( I graduated in 1987) The point I tried to make - (appearently not too well) is that the basics of all art training apply to digital as well as traditional (analog) art . Color theory , perspective, form,symetry ,composition are all important - poser is a tool nothing more -nothing less. I kind of regret starting this thread cause it seems to get some a bit fired up- sorry however I have learned a lot about the history of poser .

Okay here is freebies part 2, and this is where it gets ugly.  When a 3d modeller sees their freebie in someones artwork and they did not give permission for the freebie to be used.  They are going to contact you and say we can settle this two ways;  in court or out of court.  So now said freebie could cost anywhere from $1.00 to $2,999

Remember art isn't a bunch of hippies chanting " Peace, Love, And Understaning" it's big business.  The video game market alone is 9.9 billion

"When a 3d modeller sees their freebie in someones artwork and they did not give permission for the freebie to be used.  They are going to contact you and say we can settle this two ways;  in court or out of court.  So now said freebie could cost anywhere from $1.00 to $2,999"

Thank you..That is by far the biggest bunch of bulls**t I've read in a long time.

 

And Here I thought the Poser community was growing wiser.

 

It's actually kinda nostalgic and refreshing to see there is still BullS**T still being spread to the masses.

 

It wouldn't be the same without it.

 

Thanks again

 

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Well, I can also see both sides of the coin. There are many very talented artists that have grown from Poser, be it texture making, post processing or mesh creation, BUT! even though Poser is easy to use, it does still seem to attract the "make art button" brigade who expect the software to create the art and not the user. Poser is a good tool, but even I throw my hands in the air when I see questions such as - "where can I find this pose file?" etc...how about creating your own pose, or your own prop if it doesn't exist? There is no excuse.

Cheers

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

YouTube Channel

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Hi Hawkfyr,

One question.  Are you advocating the use of freebies in artwork,  without the 3d modellers consent?

Cheers,
Patorak

Hi johnfields,

I'm just trying to protect you.  I'm not knocking your artwork,  I think it's great.  The only thing I'm saying is get the freebie modellers permission in writing.

Cheers,
Patorak

Quote - Remember art isn't a bunch of hippies chanting " Peace, Love, And Understaning" it's big business.  The video game market alone is 9.9 billion

 
Great time for a question- Say I use the "static tent" in your freebies - I change the textures by displacement and apply new colors and say a USMC stencil on the side then use it in the background of a scene what is the proper ettiquette on this usage? I looked at your page and did not see any limitations on terms of use.

If you render a 3d object for a gallery picture, it is not likely that someone would take you to court about it (I am guessing that there could not be a case, if you don`t make money out of the picture then the original creator of the object is not losing any money.

Johnfields, thank you for the ed209 link.

"One question.  Are you advocating the use of freebies in artwork,  without the 3d modellers consent?"

 

Nope...especially if it is used in a commercial endeavor. but you didn't say that.

 

You said "In Someone's Artwork"

 

I'd love to see documented proof of a freebie provider suing "Anybody" for posting "Artwork" where permission wasn't granted.

 

8 )

 

Tom

 

 

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

You beat me to it Xantor

 

Tom

 

 

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Hi johnfields,

You have my full permission to use it for commercial and non-commercial use.  If you need any modifications to the mesh  contact me at  chieftanocla7@sbcglobal.net   I'm glad to help you and all the poser artist here.  I just don't want to see anyone get burned.  Right now over at turbosquid there is a controversy about people uploading freebies,  then pulling them a few weeks later and selling the exact same model.

Cheers,
Patorak

P.S.  MARCUS OF QUEENSBURY RULES.  NO SIDE FIGHTS!

Thanks Patorak

I guess if I ever got good enough to do this commercially I would remove all the freebies so there would not be a chance I would get involved in that kind of problems - but hey I just do this cause it's fun!

Hi Johnfields,

You're welcome!  I'm glad to help.  BTW I think your artwork is great and I think you should start exploring the different markets.  Advertising is going to be one of the up and coming job markets this year.  

Cheers,
Patorak

One more thing.  Thanks for putting the Marine Corps Emblem on the tent.  You made this old Marine's day!  OOH RAH!  Semper Fi!  Nuff said

Quote - Hi kathym,

This post is one of the reasons I model exclusives for Poser clients.  The design is theirs,  I model from that design and work one on one with them for complete customer satisfaction.  And whats more,  when I'm done the model is theirs and theirs alone.  I don't even ask for credit nor do I blow my horn by saying "  Hey, that's my model!"   If anyone is interested in an exclusive you can contact me at    chieftanoclan7@sbcglobal.net 

Cheers,
Patorak

I can see the dollar signs now. LOL. Years ago I commissioned (when I actually had money) a set of armour for posette based on the one worn by Callisto from the Xena series .. cost me about 300 bucks. I'd hate to see the price tag for some of the alien life form sketches I have. OUCH! LOL.

However if someone uploads a freebie .. doesn't that imply that they don't care if some uses it (even if only in the confines for their home)? Or I guess unless the eula says "you can open the file - look at it in poser and do nothing else with it".

Just enjoying the Vue. :0)

I appreciate the vote of confidence but I'm an old fart (46) and I gave up on professional art a long time ago . Here's a thought - I bet that the  company that made robocop owns the rights to ED-209- so freebie or not the actual rights for ED-209 are probaly with Paramount or Fox or somebody. Since no money was made -probaly not a big deal , HOWEVER there is a  model of ED there for 200.00  - NOW this is the question since this image is commercial and used  the intellectual rights owned by another how can they sell it - it seems its kinda like me selling somebody elses property ...

Quote - One more thing.  Thanks for putting the Marine Corps Emblem on the tent.  You made this old Marine's day!  OOH RAH!  Semper Fi!  Nuff said

 
Semper Fi- I'm a 10 year NAVY vet -BM2 -Assault box coxswain - your ride home!

Hi kathym,

Our freebies are good to go.  It's sights like 3dcafe,  turbosquid and so forth you have to be careful with.  BTW my prices are way less then that! LOL

Hi johnfields,  

That's another big controversey.  In business big fish eats little fish.  Eventually,  they will notice and want their cut.

Cheers,
Patorak

your ride home!  ROTFLOL

Just to keep things straight; Copyright does not care whether or not money changes hands. If I xerox copies of the latest Harry Potter novel and give them away on a street corner I am still guilty of copyright theft. Trademark does care, but only in that a trademark is a business asset that was developed at some cost and needs to be protected against adulteration. Lucas Films, for instance, would be entirely within their rights to shut down anyone using the trademarked shapes of Tie Fighters or the trademarked term "Jedi." They chose not to, reasoning that their property is not harmed by use within the fan community. However, if they let a feature film use these elements they'd risk losing them entirely, allowing a new film company to take over and profit on the work Lucas did. So don't look at the money. Look at the morality, and look at the explicit permissions. When in doubt, check -- most major companies, for instance, have a list of their trademarks somewhere on their websites, as well as a statement of policy concerning them.

By the by, what is it with all the theater people suddenly showing their heads? Didn't realize there were so many of us here! Perhaps we should start a new section -- 3d for theater and pre-vis -- ? (Nothing pinks like propinquity. I'm heading towards a brutally quick turn-around on a complex lighting show and I'm strongly considering mocking up parts of my design in 3d first; to try to problem-solve there instead of on what is going to be a hectic tech week. It would be easier if the set designer had graduated to CAD, tho....at the moment there isn't even a ground plan.)

Quote - By the by, what is it with all the theater people suddenly showing their heads? Didn't realize there were so many of us here! Perhaps we should start a new section -- 3d for theater and pre-vis -- ? (Nothing pinks like propinquity. I'm heading towards a brutally quick turn-around on a complex lighting show and I'm strongly considering mocking up parts of my design in 3d first; to try to problem-solve there instead of on what is going to be a hectic tech week. It would be easier if the set designer had graduated to CAD, tho....at the moment there isn't even a ground plan.)

 
I got my BFA from Noerthern Kentucky University in 1987 how bout you? It sounds like a great idea - a bunch of techies sharing tips and crits- do we have to wear black when we are on line ?-lol. Lets hear it from the theater peeps!

Hi nomuse,

Quote-

*Perhaps we should start a new section -- 3d for theater and pre-vis -- ?

*I think that is a brilliant idea.

Cheers,
Patroak

Hum, Wouldn't the sheer act of distrubuting a model as a "Freebie" sort of make one assume it's to be used in a piece of ARTWORK? I mean I can understand a creator "requesting" that it not be used for commercial purposes without concent, particularly in the case of some one offering a "Freebie" created in the image of something copyrighted such as the ed 209, from the 'Robocop' movies, but by offering it for Free on an open community such as the internet, well it seem evident to me it's beuing offered for use.

IF the readme included iwth it (if it even had one( REQUESTED that the artist be notified of it's use then it's only polite to try. But there is no other obligation. If your so f**kin anal as to think you can sue over something YOU offered for FREE then don;t put it out there. I'd like to see the court records of such a law suit. 

Commercial works are something else, however all that I sell contain the provision for the purchaser to use RENDERS of the models in thier art. Distribution of the models themselves are another thing altogether, except for items in the case where I sell the copyright outright, in which case the purchser may do whatever they want with them, sell them, give them away as christmas presents whatever, no longer my business.

mike

Quote - I hope nobody bites my head off for this but Poser art (for the most part) needs to be critiqued similar to a photograph. composition, lighting, etc.

Oh, absolutely if you want to call it art and expect it to have credibility as such, you also have to be willing to take the heat of critique. This is what ppl who put so many years into concentration and skill development have to face.

And if you'd like to just tinker around for fun and pat yourself on the back for it, fine, it's free expression, enjoy. But if you trot it out among a community of serious artists, expect to get burned.

ok I am not reading (right now anyway) through three pages of comments but I will put in my 2 cents.
these elitists that claim all the "did you model this or that" well frankly, until one of them will show me they made literally every component in their puter or wrote every program they use I wont take them seriously.
Poser is a tool. plain and simple. just as a model for a photo shoot is a tool(breathing one but a tool) yes poser is like that. you have to set camera angels, lights, poser your model..etc...

And with tools, they dont work without a person to work them. No chisel will cut marble without a person to hold it, no puter will create art without someone behind the monitor.
no matter what you are going to claim, every single 3d artist uses another's tools to get their end result. period.

It was not the tool that created the work, it was a person.
So what if they didnt do it in a thousands of dollars program?
so, with that..take the elitists with a grain of salt.
I was pleasantly surprised when I ranked in an animago competition with my lil poser piece..considering it was filled to the breaking with high end program created work.
poser is a tool, it is the passion that it is used with that creates art.
remember that and you will be just fine.;)

https://www.darkelegance.co.uk/

Commission Closed till 2025

In most cases, it tends to be the equivalent to cutting out pieces of other people's work and pasting it into a scene.

As far as I know that's called a "collage" (at least in dutch it is, couldn't find an english word for it)  and is an artform.
It seems to me that these discussions seems to come back over and over again, like thromarcadia mentioned "beating a dead horse".
Many, many years ago i studied architecture, and I discovered that the only way to get the best results was to convince the teachers that your work was good. That seems reasonabe but a few less talented people did that by pissing off the work of other students. And in the end it were not the most talented students that succeeded but the ones with the biggest mouth, and the worst thing was, they were encouraged to do so: because in the real world you have to defend your work to your client to be succesfull. I don't think I have to mention that I dropped out early, because I was a rather shy man.
Some weeks I spoke with a girlfriend, who studied some years on the art academy of the Hague, but also stopped because she couldn't take the very competitive climate there. And by the stories I've heared from other friends, things haven't changed a bit, it's only grown worse.
So in my opinion people who are burning down the work of others only do that because they have learned to do so or they have very limited skills.
My advice: don't get upset by any comments on your work.

Regards,

Bopperthijs

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Dok - I'm anxious to see your work - you seem to be very open to criticism :rolleyes:

Hey johnfields,

This is OT so I hope you don't mind.  What ship were you on?  I was on the USS Saipan.  Our  " Mike boat" was christened the uss minnow.  There's a song all the sailors ( Mr. Pretzels )use to sing while we( Clausen Pickles ) were going ashore.  I'm sure you know it.  Anyways thats why I was LOLing.

Cheers,
Patorak

Quote -
As far as I know that's called a "collage" (at least in dutch it is, couldn't find an english word for it) 

That's also the English word for it.

---

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

Quote - > Quote - One more thing.  Thanks for putting the Marine Corps Emblem on the tent.  You made this old Marine's day!  OOH RAH!  Semper Fi!  Nuff said

 
Semper Fi- I'm a 10 year NAVY vet -BM2 -Assault box coxswain - your ride home!

 

My son is a SeaBee with Beach Masters 2.

Quote - Hey johnfields,

This is OT so I hope you don't mind.  What ship were you on?  I was on the USS Saipan.  Our  " Mike boat" was christened the uss minnow.  There's a song all the sailors ( Mr. Pretzels )use to sing while we( Clausen Pickles ) were going ashore.  I'm sure you know it.  Anyways thats why I was LOLing.

Cheers,
Patorak

 
USS Puget Sound - AD -38 - 40'/50' UBs/80' lcms
Little Creek Amphibious Base- You name it!
USS Laboon-DDG-58- RHIB boats

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - One more thing.  Thanks for putting the Marine Corps Emblem on the tent.  You made this old Marine's day!  OOH RAH!  Semper Fi!  Nuff said

 
Semper Fi- I'm a 10 year NAVY vet -BM2 -Assault box coxswain - your ride home!

 

My son is a SeaBee with Beach Masters 2.

 
May God watch over him and bring him safely back to you - I honor his service!

You old salt!  LOL!   Little Creek!  How long ago?  I was there in '85.

Quote - You old salt!  LOL!   Little Creek!  How long ago?  I was there in '85.

 
92-93

Was Oceanview still off limits?  You know I had my first experience with art there.  I got so drunk in a bar that I asked a statue to dance.  Been in love with art ever sinceLOL!

but did the statue say yes??...cos if it did..then you was REALLY drunk! :D

Hi bevans84

How are you doing?  How's your son doing?  Are you sending him care packages?

Cheers,
Patorak

I think it slapped me!

Ocean view was almost totally demolished - the amusement park tore down and condos built - all the strip joints closed and a large park built!

Holy Cow!  It was pretty rundown.  not a place anyone would want to go alone.  When I was there the Fleet Admiral made it off limits.

You like "Off limits," you should try being in the 82d. Everywhere I went with them, we ended up having every town within fifty miles of our camp being placed off-limits. West Virginia. Large parts of Southern California. But the ultimate was when the entire STATE of Alaska was put off-limits to the men of the 82d. Not sure if it was the fights, or the naked colonel dancing on a table... And now this thread is officially as off-track as a 2nd lieutenant with a map and compass.

Hi nomuse,

LOL!  We trained twice a year with you guys at Bragg!  Is the Attic still around in Fayetteville.  Speaking of boot lewys we had one take us through an impact range on the way to Normandy LZ.

Cheers,
Patorak

I used to put 2nd loos up at the bow ramp to watch'em get wet - Gunny's rode in the cabin with me -"snicker":b_tonguewink:

*I used to put 2nd loos up at the bow ramp to watch'em get wet - Gunny's rode in the cabin with me    *LMAO!  Due the same with the art snobs!  I gotta hit the rack.  Revielle goes at 0430  Talk with everyone later.

Patorak-out

Taps ,taps - lights out - the smoking lamp is out in all spaces, maintain quiet about the ship.

Quote - Dok - I'm anxious to see your work - you seem to be very open to criticism :rolleyes:

Gaze upward in the thread where I said my work is only at Renderotica and Raunchy Minds. I don't have a need for a market that isn't expressly erotic, and so I haven't bothered to post here.

Hmmm.. that gallery is empty too-
I checked out "bounds of Beauty" as well- tsk tsk not exactly my cup o'tea - but whatever floats your boat- don't feel the need to comment on my post anymore - i'm sure you are too "highbrow" for the likes of me. I'm trying to be polite as I do not want a flame war or anything - we just have a different perspective - I respect your right to yours and reserve the right to mine!

To be honest the image is drastically different from what CGTalk and Conceptart expect. They want quick dramatic 2D paintings OR production-grade 3D stuff. Unless it's a WIP. If you want 3D you have to do it good, like those things ZBrush/Mudbox do. And you notice the large analog influence over there? One tip: Shaders and postwork. Try making your own materials with variable bump/specular/reflection and great skin. Also try painting over the 3D image (rendered large) for a grittier, bolder look- especially for the terrain, which would look magnificent and much better with Painter X and a tablet in a few strokes. You might think of these processes as long-drawn and tiring (perhaps even longer than the time it took to assemble/pose), but the devil is in the details. IMHO Poser should be more of an indirect stepping stone to awesome 2D art (and if you sculpt using Digital Clay, 3D). It's own output would be just passable. The same applies to a lot of 3D actually. Most of them go through a professional compositing app to make it more dramatic/composited on matte paintings. If Poser renders are not stylized to a stage where they look like work done in 3ds or Maya or Houdini, they will be subjected to scrunity to anyone outside the Poser Gallery- uncanny valley and perception of unfinished pieces at its work. It's definately not insecure people trying to be dicks- the people there would be damn proud of their stuff, like any artist would. Arrogance? Maybe a little, but it happens in the music world (technically proficient artists hurling insults, etc.) and to an extent it's justified. Unless Poser renders are never to be compared to "professional" 3D art, which looks to be quite okay among lots of R'osity artists. :)

In This Twilight- My FIRST public poser work in 2 years!
Also the reason why I endorse postwork (:D)

Well thought out answer - I will certainly take it on-board, -thank you

Thanks Patorak and John,
He's been stationed at Little Creek with his wife and our two grandkids for about a year and a half now. My wife's flown up there a couple of times to visit, but I haven't been able to get away yet.

On the topic, I'm kind of torn. I've spent quite a lot of time trying to learn modeling and have a lot of respect for those that do it well, but I see nothing wrong with poser either. I've even noticed that quite a few renders at CG Society use poser for the characters, although they're usually rendered in a different app. I tend to do that myself, sort of using poser as a pre-stage application.

Quote - I respect your right to yours and reserve the right to mine!

I think you misunderstood what I've been saying. I'm not here to critique your art. You came to complain how you were treated elsewhere, got everyone's support, and instead of joining in the handholding, I realized there was quite another angle on it that people either didn't want to consider, or just got caught  up in the 'us against them that was steamrolling down the pages.

And if you really respect other's rights to their opinion then you perhaps tolerate 'em without telling them to shut up, no matter how gently you pretend to be doing it.

Fine -whatever Dok -I'm done now, moving along... 

The point being that's it should be art that's well crafted instead of those that aren't seems to be lost on those with prejudice against certain programs since prejedice in any form is based on ignorance and emotional bias.

The predujice against Poser doesn't seem to be limited to still images either. I was submitting animations I did with Poser figures, combined with 3D Studio objects, Bryce, layered effects in Flash and put in a video with Premiere to a cartoon site. 

The guy who ran it told me he didn't accept "Machinima"  it seems he had lumped it in with stuff captured from programs like the Sims, World of Warcraft and Second Life. Even when I told him it wasn't done any of those it was all original done with 3D rendering programs, he still wouldn't change his mind about it because it looked all the same to him.

The trouble is that those who have such a bias towards Poser don't really care how well it was done since they've already made up their minds on the what methods they'll accept. That's why it's useless trying to argue with them.

Click to get a printed and bound copy plus T-shirts, mugs and hats

I am gonna make a last statement and be done with this topic - I was not offended or hurt by the initial remark at conceptart - I was just suprised that there was a bias towards what program was used to create something - that is all as far as my work - I got the hide of a rhino and I dont get offended by others opinions and I enjoy well concieved crits- this was not about me it was about a percieved bias towards Poser. Thank you for all the great input.

Quote -
To me Poser art is better than that other "ART" where some guy exhibits dead bodies and calls it art, it's not to me but I guess it is to some, likewise an "artist" exhibited a scruffy untidy bed with litter on it as art [Pfft].

 
That gives me an idea for a render ...