I just don't get it! First of all, I'm not going to mention any names because when it boils down to it, the majority of people on this site don't want comments that aren't "ooo that's fabulous" and real criticism is frowned upon.

I see images by certain "arteests" that have no background, the figure is stiffly posed in a canned pose, or a canned pose slightly modified. There is either no expression, the zombie eyed expression, or the deer stuck in the headlights expression. And the work has no meaning, no message, no real creativity beyond showing off the latest toys they bought or were given...and they end up with between 60 to 80 comments saying "ooo" and "ahhh", and telling them what great artists they are and the image gets some of the highest ratings on the site. I saw one image by a "highly regarded artist" that was posted in the gallery (not the WIP gallery either), in which he admitted a joint looked broken, and there were a few other flaws...and he still got a huge number of comments telling him what a wonderful image it was and how great he was.

What the f*** is wrong with us, people??!?!?!?!!!

There is some fantastic talent posting in these galleries like garyandcatherine, originalkitten, Mondwin, samhal, DigitalDream666, Primal, Fredy, and so many others that barely get a notice. These people put a lot of thought and creativity into their images. They go the extra mile to put that "something extra", and they have more talent in their little fingers than most of us have or will have in our whole bodies even if we had an extra hundred years.

I just don't get how some of the hacks get such large followings of sycophants, while the real talents get little to no attention. We really need to re-evaluate our what we're doing. Everyone certainly deserves to post their images here, and they certainly deserve to get comments, but come on people...are we so shallow that we have to keep telling the emperors that their clothes are stupendous when in reality we all know they aren't wearing any. Maybe it's time to end the popularity contests, stop being suck ups, and recognize the real talent for a change.

Take the time to look at some of the artists I've linked to. When you see someone that's got their kind of talent, take the time to rate their image, make it a favorite, add a comment. Let's give the people that really deserve it, the encouragement they deserve, and let all the others work a little harder to earn it.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

You know, this has been so often discussed but with no result. I for my part, don't post much images here or in any other gallery and i do net let my images get commented. I for myself experienced that some people only comment to get a comment by yourself. I got ims where i was reminded that the person did make a comment under my image. Hey i don't do images for that. I do them for myself. Or can someone write a comment under the Mona Lisa in the Louvre? ;-) Do images for yourself, for the fun of it and enjoy what you did. That's the best way. Threads like this one won't change the situation. Believe me.

Cheers Marko

If by my life or death I can protect you, I will!

well first off, most of the 'hacks' view anything other than mindless praise a personal attack.... to the point where they get the mods involved and what they don't like (normally constructive critique) removed.

add in the Cliqhe element, (you tell them their pic is nice (however bad it is) they tell you yours is nice and round and round we go....), reliance on the Tutorial of the week (use a tutorlal yes. once. then go beyond it!! learn!)  and anyone raising the points you have being told varying versions of 'How dare you judge what art is!' we have the situation we have now where we have a few hundred 'artists' not actually growing or improving but just making cookie cutter images they think are the best in the world which are actually unfinished, uninspired flat images with little merit to them.

Quote - we have the situation we have now where we have a few hundred 'artists' not actually growing or improving but just making cookie cutter images they think are the best in the world which are actually unfinished, uninspired flat images with little merit to them.

 

Well said Khai...I couldn't have said it better myself, although I'd say it was more than a few hundred. Andi it does seem quite a few of those cookie cutter, unfinished, uninspired, flat images with little merit to them that that show up in the Most Commented, Tope Rated catagory.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

Quote - Threads like this one won't change the situation. Believe me.

Cheers Marko

 

Perhaps not, but drawing a little more attention to it won't hurt and maybe it will get some people to look at some images done by some of the artists that don't have their own swarm of fans buzzing around every image they make...good or bad.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

I realise it isn't enuff just to ignore bad images, and it's wrong just to say they're bad without offering information on how to improve them. we might be able to offer contructive criticism if it were supported (e.g. no lynch mobs allowed when a critic sez something's wrong) and if there were a set of links to direct folks who post bad poser renders, a set of "how to do it" links: good lighting good shadows avoiding nostril glow eye reflections facial expressions proper body part proportions dynamic pose methods use of clothing use of props background creation scene set-up material room settings render settings I know that links exist at which all these are described, but I just don't have them organised in any coherent fashion, and I doubt anyone will stick their necks out until we get some assurance from the ptb that criticism will be supported, and that critics won't be left to fend for themselves.

Quote - I realise it isn't enuff just to ignore bad images, and it's wrong just to say they're bad without offering information on how to improve them. we might be able to offer contructive criticism if it were supported (e.g. no lynch mobs allowed when a critic sez something's wrong) and if there were a set of links to direct folks who post bad poser renders, a set of "how to do it" links: good lighting good shadows avoiding nostril glow eye reflections facial expressions proper body part proportions dynamic pose methods use of clothing use of props background creation scene set-up material room settings render settings I know that links exist at which all these are described, but I just don't have them organised in any coherent fashion, and I doubt anyone will stick their necks out until we get some assurance from the ptb that criticism will be supported, and that critics won't be left to fend for themselves.

 

Miss Nancy, you can offer constructive criticism without having to resort to being a tutor. You could certainly direct someone to the backroom or the poser tutorial section, or Dr Geeps site if you felt inclined to do so. The idea behind leaving a constructive critique is not to teach someone how to do better but to encourage them to seek the knowledge to improve. That's one of the things the Forum can do. If you tell someone their lighting is uneven, they could certainly post in the forum with a link to the image and ask for advice to improve the lighting.

On the other hand, I'm not saying we shouldn't give out "ooo's and ahh's". They are also ways to encourage people. I'm saying let's not give someone "ooo's and ahh's" when they don't deserve them, or just to make them feel good, or to be friends with then. There's too much refrigerator art in the galleries. I call it refrigerator art becase it's the kind of image our Mother's would pat us on the head for and make a fuss over then hang it on the fridge for everyone to see. when it was really just a meaningless scribble that, under other circumstances, would have gotten thrown into the trash.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

I personally prefer the critiques of my art.  I don't always agree with it, but at least it opens my eyes as to possibilities.  If either of you would like to critique my gallery, I'd be honored.  Sycophants are such a pain.
DPH

  STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

@Tainted_heart:  Couldn't have said it better myself, and now we have to have it shoved in our faces on the front page of the galleries too!
It's the Hot 20 all over again!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

You're asking for honest gallery comments here? It's been discussed over and over again, but I doubt it will ever change.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Honest critiques are good and helpful, I welcome them, I don't however like it when someone takes the time to mock my work, but I have little problem with that, I don't get viewed to offen. 

Back to the point, it is a shame that many great, and I mean great artist don't get recongnized as much, there are some really talented folks here that really impress me and also inspire me.

Sharen

It always has been and always will be the popularity factor. It will never change. There is no way to stop it. Any changes made to the system are just round about changes that still end up as popularity factions. Top 20 is now most viewed/commented. Same thing, different name, same outcome.

No point in letting it bother you. Just enjoy the ones that you like and don't pay any attention to the the others and save all your hair.

I welcome everything, positive or negative.  I value "You messed up on this or that" or "I really like the way you did this" much more than 5 or 10 "that's great!" comments.  As Fixer says though, the recent change to gallery setup is basically the same few artists over and over, regardless of content.

My Freebies

I'm sure all of us have some kind of "fan base" but do you know what I like about mine, I have a few that tell me as it is [Chris, barcode for example], he often [too often, LOL] tells me "blips" in my images and I go away, sort them and repost, sure I'm mad for messing it up but I'm also glad someone pointed it out instead of just looking and thinking "Oh he's messed that up" and going away, or telling me how great it is when there's a glaring mistake in it!!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

honest critiques would be nice...but they dont happen....and are unlikely to ever happen........"oohs" and "ahhhs" are nice though...makes ya happy :)

dphoadley - I sent a critique of your gallery to you via site mail. It was easier to critique your gallery as a whole that way although I did mention a few specific images.

thefixer - Absolutely, the Hot 20 by any other name is still the Hot 20. The sad thing is people who aren't "in the know" will look at them and think that is the creme of the crop.

aeilkema - Yes, I'm asking for honest comments or, at the very least...stop and think before leaving any kind of comment at all. Why "ooo and ah" a cookie cutter, uninspiring, flat images with little merit to it, when you can give that praise to someone's who's overlooked but whose work is exceptional.

SAMS3D - Mocking anyone's work is not constructive, helpful, or necessary. You're right, there are really talented and inspiring artists in all the galleries that deserve the praise, the ratings, and the favorites that get little recognition or encouragement.

beryld - I'm asking people to take the time to pay attention to the ones that really deserve it and stop paying lip service to those that don't.  Maybe it is pie in the sky, but maybe it will get people like garyandcatherine, originalkitten, Mondwin, samhal, DigitalDream666, Primal, Fredy, and others the recognition they deserve or at the very least a little more encouragement.

Take a look at their work and then take a look at the most comment and highest rated, then tell me the ones I've listed don't deserve to be there.

pjz99 - You're right, we are seeing the same few artists over and over and a number of them do the same cookie cutter images over and over again, and it's a shame the real "artists" never get seen on the front page, and it's every members fault!

zollster - oos and ahhs are nice, when they're deserved.

Maybe we won't get anything to change...but ignoring it isn't going to make it go away, and not speaking out about it every so often is an injustice to those that produce the real Art!

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

You think the Art Gallery comments are a mess... Try leaving a negative review of a product. Rendy will be down on you like a hawk after a fieldmouse. Ask me how I know. It's not about what's good or bad... it's about selling product and pumping up egos.

I understand what your trying to say and I was agreeing with you. But I have been here long enough to know your beating a dead horse. It doesn't mater what the talent is, it matters only with who you know and your buddie at the moment, are. For the most part. But remember what you think is talent may not be to others. Don't read anything into that about the names you picked. It is a statement in general terms. 

You are confussing the community it used to be with the one that it is now. When I first joined, the top 20 meant something, there was some fantastic talent that deserve to be there. But the membership got bigger, the talent got diluted/deluded into what it is now.

In a few months, there will be another one of these threads and nothing will have changed. Sad but true.

Well, I wouldn't be so hasty as to say the people in the top20 stuff don't deserve to be there, but the current setup is basically a bit too much about relationships between frequent contributors and their viewers.

My Freebies

Does any of this really matter? Talent always shines through!

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

YouTube Channel

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

I don't get it either but hey what can you do? There are those who only feel self worth by surrounding themselves with only beautiful things and kind comments. I for one have given up trying to figure out the gallery "crowd" I've been posting less and less and post most of my images at other places with a more "adult' theme. I may post a few images here just to do it I guess but for the most part not as much.

My Facebook Page

I generally pay zero attention to number of views or number of responses to my stuff, I look for feelings provoked or meaningful technical feedback (content more than quality).  What other people or doing or getting as responses really doesn't interest me too much.

My Freebies

never hurts to have people keep you honest..;)  Tell me I suck (you think I don't know?..;) but tell me why, or how to get better..;)

There are some touchy people out there. I've been given a hiding on occasion, even pointing out minor errors (though I try to explain how to fix them). If someone doesn't want constructive criticism, they can always check the little box.

But you are right, I can always tell when something new and popular comes out (not as bad as the Namihe [sp?..;] fiasco, but it happens..;) dozens of pictures with the same items.

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

so, how to take this...... I don't get a whole schwack of hits unless I do a nude scene.  I don't get a whole lot of comments except from people who like my stuff and comment as such,.  I've had Trolls hit me and say "do things my way because I am better than you....", only to find that the trolls either don't post images or post the cookie cutters.
which begs the question.... given Tainted's praise of Primal and Mondwin and others (artists I too like), does that mean that since Tainted doesn't normally comment on my images, that I am a lousy artist, or that the ones that give me the "ooo's and aaah's"  are merely sycophants to my way......   
I get so few comments or praise, that it feels good when someone does comment on my work.  When it comes to other artists.... I like what I like... got it?  Should I complain because I don't find myself in the "most commented today" or the fact that I will probably never get to be the coveted "AOM".... sorry, not my style.
i will tell you something, even though some people don't like my work, I like my work, and occasionally, I make MONEY on it.  If you don't view my images, there is no way I am ever going to force you to do so.there.  I have yet to do a Naked Vicky In a temple with a sword>  Mostly because I don't do backgrounds that often.  I also refuse to do windows
am I mad? yessssss!   why7  oh, why not!  you don't like my work, people have already said so.  Does this mean I am going to stop?  No!  should people stop saying they like my work because someone is telling them to stop praising my work.  Again, NO! 
sorry, but somedays I get tired of this.... but maybe that's just me1  Feel free to go to my pages and make all the negative comments you want.... I'm a big boy, I can handle it.
and, unless you've made other plans have a great day!

Quote - I have yet to do a Naked Vicky In a temple with a sword

heavy head And that... is why you fail.

My Freebies

I agree with the sentiment here, but I can remain silent no longer!

What is it with people and this one particular artist? Am I too new? Did I miss something? If you're going to complain about cookie-cutter responses, this particular artist would be a good place to start.

VERY BEAUTY IMAGE!!!! BRAVISSIMO!!!!!HUGS....or some such nonsense.

Now go to the gallery and click on a random image. Nine times out of ten this person has commented.

Now tell me this wasn't to attract comments to this artist's own gallery.

I think you all know who I'm talking about.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

I dont have a clue lol  - totally lost here.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Nope. I hardly browse any of your galleries, and don't take seriously any comments on the single image I so far plan to keep in my own. All I know is that if your gallery doesn't have a naked Vicky then I don't want to see it.

No matter how big the fish get, this is still a small pond, and putting it in perspective makes it impossible to take seriously. While this may be a good place to get exposure for artistic works, it doesn't appear to be one which would net you any credibility anyway. So you might as well prostitute your naked Vicky in a temple with or without her sword.

Don't feel bad, I haven't done a NVIAT, yet.  I don't pimp my vickies here, much. There are more mature sites that love that kind of stuff and don't get upset about the naked thing.

Now you've done it. I'm going to have to post something in my gallery, I think it's been a couple of years. I'm going to prostitute a V4 morph I'm working on and see if I can get some lovin.

That'll always get you comments. And be sure to give a cheery, 'Thanks for looking!'

okay, everybody take a deep breath, in.... out...in....out... relax.   no need to get insulting, or nasty in this forum.... life's too short for that sort of thing..... besides, there's this old Canadian saying, "Be nice to people on your way up, because you'll meet those same people on your way down".  one thing that should be noted, is that this is and international gallery and people may speak other languages than english, so when they respond with simple words, like Hugs, or Bravisimo, it amy mean that they are articulating as best they can, and that should be respected.
and if you refuse to look in galleries that don't have Nekkid Vickies, your loss, :-)
all is well,  really....

Well, I don't see things changing, though I DO try to comment on really good images that
are hurting for attention. I saw one excellent pic of a dragon taking a drink on the riverbank
that only has five comments, FIVE fer cryin' out unprintably! And as you said, a cookie cutter
on white background had over twenty. There is no justice, BUT, that is R'osity. I've been here
since 1999, when it was still the Poser Forum run by Willow and Grey. Sycophants and 
ass kissers have always been part of the Gallery scene, mores the pity. All you can really do,
is try to make sure the GOOD, yet ignored pics get a comment from you. I'm usually hurting
for free time, but I do try to comment when I can. I don't ignore pinups if the character is in
a scene, but white, black, or any color background will just be ignored. I hate a lack of effort.

Greywolf

I understand command of the English language can be a barrier, but posting essentially the same comment on literally hundreds of images in order to divert traffic to your images is downright manipulative in any language!

More to the point, said traffic is being diverted to a gallery that has so few updates, those people that now feel obligated to post a comment must do so on an image from twelve months ago! This accounts for the MASSIVE number of comments, which in tern is responsible for the percieved popularity of the artist.

I'm not really angry, just completley puzzled as to why nobody has said anything.

I'm going to climb down off of my soap box now and have a cold shower.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Greywolf I feel threatened by the cat you wield with such obvious skill.

My Freebies

Well, I notice that some styles of images are very popular at different times. For example using the photoshop filter flood by flaming pear was all the rage - just like wearing bell bottom pants was the rage when I was in college. I usually try to make Poser water with reflective surfaces. It's just what is popular at certain times. Many of the people who comment on my work now commented on my work  when I first started out and stuck with me all this time. A lot of folk IM people privately with the real criticism, out of politeness. Mondwin does beautiful work, and I commented on it, but she/he hasn't posted anything since August 18 2006. That is true of some people. I can't comment on their stuff it they don't post images. Poser was very difficult for me to learn. I am dyslexic, and so reading manuals and even typing comments can be a challenge. Most folks here helped me a lot and pointed me to tutorials. Poser is a hobby for me, so what does it hurt if peole leave nice comments? Terragen hardly gets any comments and there are some really nice things there in that gallery. Art is also subjective. I would rather not leave a negative comment just because I hate a style of art that someone else likes. I guess it all boils down to "so what if people get lots of comments"? Let's worry about our own art and the reason we are doing it. Is it for fun? A hobby? Self expression? Hoping to make money? Anyone remember Andy Warhol and the Campbells soup can art? How about the guy who let worms squiggle around on a canvas in some paint and called it art. Remember, poor Vincent Van Gogh died insane and a pauper. Now, his paintings are worth millions. Doesn't do much good for him in his grave, does it?

Heh, that's my cat, Blaize. He's an attention whore fer shore! It was a great pic my sis
took though! BEWARE the man with the large caliber PUSS! Sounds almost obscene
doesn't it? :)

Quote - I saw one excellent pic [..] that only has five comments, FIVE fer cryin' out unprintably! And as you said, a cookie cutter on white background had over twenty. There is no justice

Meh, whether it's five comments or twenty, how valuable are those comments in substance? So maybe someone can feed their frail ego on twenty empty gestures, and they'll probably keep purchasing their ego crutches from the real artists who actually get shit done.

I'm only going to have one purpose to posting any pics here, and that's to promote the people who gave out the freebies that made them possible.

Okay, I went and looked at the listed artists. They all had a lot of comments that I saw. Mondwin, however, is the only one who commented on my stuff. A couple of the mentioned artists do art I would not like no matter who did it. It's just not my taste so I wouldn't look at it. For example. Many folks love Kiki, Koshini, anime stuff. I hate it, but that does not mean it is lousy art.

The gallery here is about girlie pics.  Naked girlie pics first and foremost, but also various other forms of girlie pics.  Manly pics barely get looked at, nor do abstract or landscape images.  Similar corelation to comments and favorites.  It's the culture here ^_^

My Freebies

I'm always up for constructive crits if you want to take the time.  I don't have huge amounts of free time to respond though so it might take me a few days :) (RL is hell sometimes)

Interesting about the white background, I had an email from Alamy the other day and they are actively looking for images on a plain white background.  Depends on the target market I guess.  I tend to use plain white a fair bit (until I get a bunch more flames rendered up that is)

My Freebies
Buy stuff on RedBubble

OK, I did it. I posted an image. Now you can all go and thrash it all you want. I did it just for the fun of it but then again I never said I was an artist. Oh and to tick some of , I said thanks for looking.

I hate to connect the dots, but note one of your commentators.  ;)
ps: not talking about myself

My Freebies

No one's mentioned those whose gallery titles are all " Titleofimage FOR oneofmygallerybuddieshere "   There are some who do not have a single image in their gallery that isn't dedicated to someone or other.  

WHY??

I do the odd ones for birthdays and things but these are overboard.

Gill

       

If not for the comment feature, I'd still be trying to learn how to put hair on a figure etc.....

While I admittedly only post "junk" here in my galleries now,

When I was the least bit concerned with posting anything worth anything  I liked the comments feature. I liked it when I would get real comments that are/were truly constructive criticism..Its how I learned that I needed to work on my lights or, camera settings etc...

"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

Free the freebies!

OK, I'm hearing a lot of comments about "It's all a big buddy system" and "I want honest and helpful comments, not backscratching". But what can we do to change things?

How about forming a kind of critique-friendly buddy system? E.G., if you want your pics honestly critiqued, join up in "the group". The idea would be, the other members of the critique group would add you as a favourite, and agree that when you post, they will give you honest feedback for improvement. You would have to agree to give (honest!) critique in turn - it wouldn't be fair to expect critique from others if you're not prepared to give it. (And let's be honest - it takes a lot longer to write an effective critique than it does to copy/paste "Oh wow i luv it hunny hugzzzz!")

I'd be happy to put up a sticky thread in the forum for this purpose, and if it takes off, we might even be able to wangle a new forum for it, you never know ;-)

Alternatively, we could all go and use the criminally-undervisited Art Theory forum, where there is a monthly "Critique" thread.

Feel free to suggest refinements/alternatives. I for one would love to see more critiquing going on.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

While I do not generally have any complaints about the number of views in my gallery, nor the comments and critiques of my work, I do get where this all started. I see images that get hundreds of views and numerous comments that I consider marginally bad, or at best average. But as we all have said, if you stay here long enough you get to understand it as the way things are. Granted I post in the Aviation and Military sections, and we are a clique of our own, and tend to stick together. I have a couple images that are way up there in views and comments and are proud of those particular images, but i also have images that I like better than those and they have much fewer of both. Sometimes it is timing, sometimes the thumbnail doesn't inspire a click. Who knows, that is the way it is. Stay here long enough and post enough and you will get a fan base. It may take quite a while, but just take what you can get.

I consider myself a free speech absolutist in the context of public expression. Any other position is oppressive and censorial. Having said that, I must take exception to the incivility that so often seems to pollute otherwise interesting and valid topics of discussion.
Demeaning others with whom you disagree or find wanting in some way by calling them "hacks" and syncophants" is neither constructive or conducive to a free exchange of ideas. And why intentionally harm another human being's enjoyment of participating in a shared interest? Not everyone who submits their work here has the time, talent, resources, technical expertise or experience to consistently create genuinely beautiful images. 
Offering honest critiques of another's art is a desirable action since it can provide perspectives and information that supplement an artist or hobbyists skills. Calling them names doesn't. All that accomplishes is alienation. 
Anyway, I'm convinced Emilio Estevez is living in my hot water heater. I have no idea what he's up to, but he keeps stuffing broken crayons and wadded balls of rice paper in the pipes.

I wasn't aware of the art theory forum.

Whats it about/for?

"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

Free the freebies!

"Quote - "I have yet to do a Naked Vicky In a temple with a sword"
heavy head And that... is why you fail."
**pjz99 - LOL!! I did a semi-naked VIATWAS once in my early days here, I never realised then how common this feature was. I did get quite a few comments though!

**"And be sure to give a cheery, 'Thanks for looking!'"
**DokEnkephalin - Oh no, I say that! I only say it to be polite & thank people for taking the time for taking a look & hopefully giving me some positive feedback. (this does include criticism which I see as a positive if it helps to improve). 
**
**karen1573 - Interesting idea, worth looking into.
**
I've read this thread with interest. I don't browse the galleries as much as I used to. It has annoyed me for some time how little response some of the amazing artists on here get compared to the hundreds of comments others get that just churn out very average work. I'm not criticising anyone's work, we all have different levels of talent & what we perceive as 'ART'. It's just ridiculous for people to comment on a picture just because they're buddies or to get a comment back, what's that all about?!! I like to look through the art charts but this system is flawed. Yes, there are some great pieces up there which I admire but there are still those there that have just got there through the 'buddy' system! You know there will be an artist that will get on there most weeks regardless of how good the actual work is. I only really visit the charts in the hope of seeing something really good that I somehow missed. One of my favourites of recent times is this one: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1387561 
My main reason for posting into the gallery is just to share with others, as I like to draw inspiration from other peoples work. I would hate to get to the stage where I no longer wanted to post a picture or a comment because of some of the nonsense which does exist here. I don't mean nonsense in the quality of peoples work but how things are done here.

Personally, I'd rather have people being honest with me about my work.  That's the only way I expect to grow as a 3D artist.  If the pose looks unnatural - tell me; if the lighting looks horrible - tell me; etc. etc..  I won't curl up and die just because someone had an idea as to how I can better myself and make my images more appealing.  I understand that everyone has their choice & taste and not everyone is going to like my work, but even if you don't like my style, tell me why!  What's interesting to me is that I can post an image here and then post an image to my gallery on another site and I'll receive constructive criticism on the other site where I don't receive any here.  That's one of the reasons I haven't posted anything here in a while.  Right now I'm working on a few pics that I think need that extra push but I'm kinda stuck.  I may take karen's advice and go the the Art Theory forum to see if anyone has any ideas.

karen- I really like that idea! :thumbupboth: It would be great to have more people getting involved with the 'honesty' aspect.

ok, a couple of things.

first off, let me say i appreciate any comments whatsoever.  i generally get relatively few (below average, i think), but the people who comment seem fairly consistent and i really appreciate them taking the time out of their day to comment. 

second, i truly and really appreciate it when people take the time to critique my work.   i know it does take time to do constructive criticism, and i think it shows a lot of care and consideration to take the time to help me be a better artistl.

i think there's a couple of issues in play here. the first is the size of the community.  it's almost impossible to get views other than by posting comments. images move off the front page within minutes.  if you don't have some hook to bring people to your image, you won't be reachable long enough to acheive any of the high profile slots.  conversely, i find it too time consuming to do much random browsing.   so the comment network is probably the best way to generate traffic. 

but how many times does one have really interesting critiques of images?  there are many times i'd like to leave a rating without a comment.  not all images are so obvious that i can easily sum up why i like them better than "beautiful" or "lovely."  and i'm a pretty analytical person.  not to mention, if i have negative things to say about a picture, i feel obligated to say what i find good about the picture as well.  and that takes a lot longer than "looks great!"

and then there's the medium.  there's so little context for online communication (no body language, no expressions, no rise and fall of the voice, etc.), i think most people are very cautious about what they say about other people's works.

and then there's the site itself.  i listened to a talk last week by JPG magazine.  they accept photographs on a theme, allow users to vote for images, then make choices for their magazine that are informed by users' feedback and votes.  when someone asked them how to prevent people gaming the system, they said, "don't show the score."   unfortunately, that's what "most commented," "most viewed" and "highest ranked" do.  i'm not saying they should be eliminated, but if you keep score, people are going to play the game.

how do we get good critiques?  well here are my two ideas: 1- individually ask for critiques in the forum when posting images.   2 - do what dphoadley does and thank people for their critiques.   2 - start a sort of informal artist workshop group here, where we subscribe to each other's galleries, share ideas in the forums, etc.

that's  just a few random thoughts....

How about getting rid of the public comments and ratings and have a button where the viewer can pass a critique or comment to the poster privately.
That way the artist still gets comments and is therefore presumably happy, but no-one else sees them!! 

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

mmm.  i can see why that would be attractive.  that would mean people wouldn't see pages of "that's great!" and decide that they must be wrong to see flaws and others right.   but i think that might result in less commenting in general.  and i rather like how insights can be shared; some of what needs to change is how we (some of us at least) look at images in the first place.   i'm on the fence, personally.

i think either way, a  workshop or critique group would be helpful.

ooooowah bugger.. and I do white backgrounds.... damn I hever realised they were so bad... sorry.... maybe now some honest comments perhaps!

LOL at pjz99. Yep, I broke one of my Golden Rules. "Never Post Until the Next Day!"

Good catch, your solution is valid answer. I used AO, I just plain missed it in the little post work did. Thus the second part of my Golden Rule. "Get some sleep and look at it the next day after some coffee." If it looks fine then, then post the image..

I would fix it but it is such a hassel to even upload an image these days let alone edit one. I missed a box so it told me do it again, I made sure the box said none and was told I didn't have an image to upload, you lose all that if you have to correct something, so, I finally got the image uploaded after 3 tries. Man, it might be another 2 years before I put myself through that again.

Here's a little warning for people who use plain white backgrounds...beware, it's easier for tubers to use your images this way.  If someone is requesting plain backgrounds they MAY have an ulterior motive.:glare:

My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice!

Quote - I see images by certain "arteests" that have no background, the figure is stiffly posed in a canned pose, or a canned pose slightly modified. There is either no expression, the zombie eyed expression, or the deer stuck in the headlights expression. 

There is some fantastic talent posting in these galleries like garyandcatherine, originalkitten, Mondwin, samhal, DigitalDream666, Primal, Fredy, and so many others that barely get a notice. These people put a lot of thought and creativity into their images. They go the extra mile to put that "something extra", and they have more talent in their little fingers than most of us have or will have in our whole bodies even if we had an extra hundred years.

 

I find it extremely funny that you should rant about lack of expressions and then link to several artist pages who's images where I think I only saw one or two images where they actually put any effort into making an expression on the figure's faces. Not that their images are bad, but they display one of the exact traits your first post ranted about. No expression!

What I have noticed myself, is that people who comment a lot on other people's stuff - suck up or not -get lots of comments back on their own stuff. Also, some people like to get nice comments. I do not expect to have my Poser gallery worth millions after I am dead, LOL!!! I get enough nasty criticism from my own family, like  if I show my husband a picture, he asks "What did THAT cost me", in reference to what I spend on Poser content and PCs plus my horse. Yet he thinks nothing of golfing three times a week and buying every expensive power tool that comes out - sometimes two of them, and he never uses them. But, according to him, "That's different. Tools are forever!" hahahahh. Sometimes the galleries are the only place someone says something nice to me, wuahhhhh, boohooo!!!!!

On a serious note, I am working on the new free Apollo Maximus now and having lots of problems with his eyes. Anyone have any suggestions is welcome to tell me. By problems, I mean they do not pose well. My Apollo always looks drunk. Stay tuned for my next Apollo pic.

Lee well you just tell him that Poser IS a Tool! Sheesh! Men! :b_rolleyes:

i dunno, i like simple, high contrast images.   a plain white or black background often works great, imho.  a lot of my favorite images and photos use plain backgrounds.

Sometimes a background gets in the way, a simple black or white often does the job. 

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I agree a simple Black or white background can add to the image but nothing like helping someone to steal your work. As already stated, it is so much easier for tubers to steal and when some wants a white background, I would think it would be for them to do as they please with your image. Now if they pay for that right, that would be different. I rank all that as the same as someone charging you for the right to enter a contenst. The only one that benifits from that con is the con artist. It amazes me how many fall for that.

There's nothing wrong with a plain white background...but when the same artist starts using it with every image it gets old. Same with using the same filters over and over...like Flood or Lens Flare, etc. It's fine to do an image to show off a new toy or a gift, but be creative with it...make an image with it that has a some meaning to it. I mean...come on...dare to be different.

It's fine to leave a comment that basically says you like the piece, trying to work through the gallery and leave a meaningful critique on every image isn't all that easy and it can get pretty time consuming. The point I've been trying to get across is why bother to "ooo and ahh" an unispiring, meaningless image just because you don't have the time or inclination to leave a constructive critique. Why not just move on to the next image without saying anything. Save the comments and critiques for those whose work stands out. Work that shows that a lot of creativity, time, and effort went into it. Work that says something more than "I had some free time so I thought I'd bang out another quick Poser image just to have another image in my gallery". If your one of the ones doing that, ask yourself...are you really doing justice to your talent and your art...or are you acting like you're some kind of a diva presenting another "so called" masterpiece for your public to adore?.

If the number of comments an image gets is our way of measuring the quality of someone's work...we as a community are doing a poor job of evaluating, and we're misleading a lot of people. It's no wonder this site isn't taken seriously.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

  Tainted_heart, you threw a tantrum in this very forum a few monthes ago when someone gave their honest opinion of your "Peter Pumpkin" render. And now you're a outspoken advocate for honesty in the galleries? Whatever.

  "Why not just move on to the next image without saying anything."

    And not to pile on, but I think this is absurd. The problem isn't too much commenting, it's that the comments aren't being spread around. Everyone should strive to comment more.

"The point I've been trying to get across is why bother to "ooo and ahh" an unispiring, meaningless image just because you don't have the time or inclination to leave a constructive critique. " 
That's YOUR opinion that the art is uninspiring and meaningless. You mean YOU feel that way. Do not force your opinion on others. Perhaps some people find YOUR art "uninspiring and meaningless".

... and then the knives came out.

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The pen is mighter than the sword, or knife as it may be, LOL!

Quote - The pen is mighter than the sword, or knife as it may be, LOL!

Only if the sword is very small and the pen is very sharp

(Bonus points if you know where that quote comes from :) )

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I wish ever so much they hadn't made that recent change to the gallery that rubs peoples' noses in this.  I'd thought it was obvious a strong majority did not want a return of the hot 20 model from the past couple of big discussion threads on it.  Tail still wags the dog here I suppose.

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Quote - > Quote - The pen is mighter than the sword, or knife as it may be, LOL!

Only if the sword is very small and the pen is very sharp

(Bonus points if you know where that quote comes from :) )

 

I still prefer the typewriter for impact. Anyone who has ever dropped a good old solid IBM typewriter on his toes will know what I mean.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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according to ZeroIntelligence.net , it was Terry Pratchett what said it. now back to the forum wrangling. I suppose my main worry is that poser users have formed a subculture of mutual self-congratulatory self-delusion in the gallery here, to the point that they are always shocked and angered by the negative reactions from 3d snobs when they post a typical poser render outside this subculture. this harms poser's reputation. it's capable of producing excellent renders, so folks should think very carefully before posting poser renders to sites where criticism is the norm, and where anti-poser bias exists.

:laugh: After reading all of this, I see that I've committed every single crime  mentioned :laugh:

I like black backgrounds for my portraits,  my friends are dedicating images to me and even ( huge gasp) have a NVIATWIS in my gallery

I like a black background for a new character. I don't want anything to distract from the features. It's just a personal preference.  
The dedications are a theme in a contest I'm sponsoring at Eclectic Guild.
 And I have NO excuse for the NV except that I worked my you-know-what off dialing that girl's body and I am going to show off all that work as far as the TOS allows 

Without actually knowing the people who post images, it's hard to tell who wants the warm fuzzies and who wants the constructive critisism/advice. So I prefer to err on the side of caution and do warm fuzzies.  And seriously, some people slave for days over what looks like a basic image where as others can whip off a masterpiece in an hour. How can you say one is bad and one is good?

For myself, I have no objection to getting critisism. When someone does make a constructive useful, comment, I save it in an folder so that I can work on the problem. But I don't change my style (or lack thereof) to fit someone else's idea of what a render should look like. 

drifterlee, are you showing your hubby the right images? NVIATWAS may be a cliche, but they do seem to soften the hardest husband  heart

Well for all of you wanting constructive critiques, I've tried that and boy I got snubbed. We take this way to serious. Unless you are making your living off these images, lighten up, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. So what if some get hundreds of comments, they must be popular. More power to them.   

http://creationsbydawn.net

Let's face it, certain people who complain that other people gets lots of comments and they and their friends don't, are just jealous, so "NYA NYA NYA" (sticks tongue out).

this thread reminds me of one of the times I was in court, I was a witness for The Crown.  The defence lawyer wanted to treat me as a hostile witness.  the judge said okay.  Defence started asking me a whole bunch of question that had nothing to do with the case, so I supplied minimal answers.  He turned on me and said "I don't like your answers".  I replied "ask better questions".
If you don't like the comments that others are recieving, maybe you should ask better questions.  In the meantime, Deal With It!
and yes, I've dropped IBM Selectrics on my toes in the past... a whole world of no fun!

Hmmm...

I'm all about dropping by and saying something nice to pretty much everyone.  Oh, and I'm getting pretty popular, maybe there is a relation.

If I don't like something, I don't say anything.  If I can offer a helpful critique, I occasionally do.

For the most part, though, who the hell am I to start telling someone they should have used AO or the Clone Tool or whatever?  Maybe they were going for a different look.  I have a few favorite artists who do stuff that consistantly amazes me.  They have asked me specifically for critiques.  My only possible response could be "I'm not worthy".

Before people go throwing "constructive" critiques around, ask yourselves if you are worthy.  Do you understand the image and the artist's intentions, tools and level of experience?

And there is nothing wrong with throwing out kind words or encouragement to newbies and those with less technical expertise.  I have seen plenty of very weak images that communicated fantastic ideas.  Art is communication, the web is communication and the comment areas on the pictures are working out nicely.

The star system could be dumped though.  Everyone get 5 stars these days regardless, it seems.

Oh, and I really like the Peter Pumpkin Eater image.  And I think, that was all I said when I commented.  Does that make my comment less valid?  I doubt it.

Well said ThrommArcadia!  I agree completely.

My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice!

tainted_heart - is this another one of your methods to try and get people to look at your underworked images? Geez, give it up already. :rolleyes: I remember some months ago that I placed a honest comment on your image and what fury that has caused you...stop with all this hypocrisy and just grow up!

Please discuss the issues and not the individuals... thanks folks.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Commentt on Karen. Been meaning to tell you I love your new hairstyle. You look about the same age as my daughters - 24 and 27??

i don't know about qualified.  i don't care personally how well someone else can use poser or photoshop or whatever.   a critical eye doesn't necessarily give you a skilled hand.  and hey, sometimes i just plain old overlook something that anyone with eyes can see. 

i've been thinking about this recently.  about trying to promote myself here, and start making myself more popular by commenting a lot,  asThrommArcadia mentions he has.  and i think it's a very positive thing to do (everyone deserves encouragement), but it's not going to do anything other than make me popular on this site.   which is cool and all, but i don't think i have hours to go through and comment on tons of images. i  like to say things particular to the image i'm looking at and actually say why i like the image, and that sometimes takes me a bit.

the fact of the matter is, i'd just like to be much better at this than i am now.  and i'm not going to get there without criticism.

would anyone else be open to a forming a critique group?  one where we could workshop each other's images?

You could count me in but I'm out of the loop in the coming weeks, I won't be around much, those that saw my last image know why as do my contacts here!
But sure, count me in!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

awesome!

sounds good to me.  I tend to be a bit erratic sometimes but I'll give it a go

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Thankyou Lee, I'm 34 this year ;-)

Anyone who wants to join a critique group... I'm happy to set this up in here. I've been chatting with the other mods about this and we figured a way to make it work for everyone:

We'll start a sticky thread in the forum here.
If you want to be part of the group, just "sign up" in that thread.
Members of the group need to give critique. It's okay to critique without having a gallery (?), but if you want to receive advice and crits, you need to be prepared to reciprocate. (Or in other words - you get what you give!)
The easiest way to keep track of the "group" would be to add the members to your faves with a note like "Critique group". Then you'll get an ebot when they upload. Alternatively you could just bookmark the group members' galleries and keep checking for new posts, but I think using faves would be easier.
I would envisage the forum thread being used for signups only, not the critique itself. But that would be flexible; if we need to change the way it works, then we can.

If you folks want to go for it then give us a "yea" and we'll make a sticky.

The alternative way would be to use google groups or something but frankly the last thing I need is more spam... :-p

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Quote - @Tainted_heart:  Couldn't have said it better myself, and now we have to have it shoved in our faces on the front page of the galleries too!
It's the Hot 20 all over again!

 

I was never so disapointed than to see this show up on the front page of the gallery.  The top 20 was bad enough, but at least is wasn't staring me in the face evey time I browsed the gallery. 

Now, I have to see it every time I look in the gallery...........The popularity contest.

Yet another reminder.....

That i'm not part of the in crowd.....

That I don't get thousands of hits in a month......

That I don't get hundreds of ratings.....

That I don't get hundreds of comments......

I just posted a thread at ArtZone....My gallery is about to max out at 50 pics.....yet I see artists with way more pics than this in their gallery......I was pretty much told......that since i'm not "It" what ever that might be.......I won't be allowed to have a gallery larger than 50 pics. 

Yet another reminder that I'm not part of the mainstream in crowd.

Now thats not to say that I don't have a fan base. Because I do. And it is a fan base that I appreciate very much. 
My art caters to a niche audience and because it does, I have come to accept that I won't be any of those things that I am constantly reminded of, that I am not.

I take comfort in the knowledge that my art is bringing me monetary rewards, granted I spend twice as much.....but thats ok.  I would spend that much anyway.

In my experience.......I gave an honest critique once.....and only once.......and got my head bit off. That stung a lot and I have not done it again.
Now, if I give an honest critique, I email the artist first to see if they are receptive. and any critiqueing is done in private. 
There are a few artist's that I have taken under my wing and guided them accordingly. And not once have I refused to help another artist that pm'ed me and asked for my help.

Just my 2 cents.............thanks

I'll throw in my two quid.   Something along the lines of the things in this thread have been weighing on me for a while now.  I'm reluctant to put up any new work, I'm also reluctant to post honest answers in threads.   There is something to be said for reigning back the desire to verbally smack someone that desperately deserves it.  Unfortunately, if you do it, there's something wrong with you.

My opinion is rarely in the "majority".   I tire of seeing the SAME AOM on the newsletters after three years.   There are more than 10 artists at this site for heaven's sake, can we see something new?   I'm not saying the one's featured arent great........ they certainly are, but we know that already, can we move on?  Pretty please?

I also do wish that a lot of the false modesty would be dropped.  Again I wont make friends, but the "art only for myself"........ doesn't that contradict the creation of art?  If it was only for ourselves, why would we belong to an art community?   The "i don't care what people think of my art"......... is probably the largest thought against human nature I've ever seen.  Everyone likes to be told they are doing a good job.   And if no one cared, why would you put it up for others to comment on?

I'll be perfectly honest, I create art for the sake of art and what its meant to acheive.  Tell a story, entertain, and please the eyes of others.  Even ourselves...... but it is storytelling, without paper and pen.  Some people write "only for themselves" and tuck their notebooks away in a drawer.  Why then isnt this art in a drawer thats for "yourself"?.  Could it be, we really yearn for someone to see it, and see talent, creativity and give kudos?

Again, even as a hobby, if its posted in a public gallery, the idea is for others to see it, isn't it?  Or is there some train of thought that says it will be put up and magically be blotted out by the masses in humanitarian blindness and no one will see?

I'll be honest, i want critisism, good and bad.  Just not MEAN.   I don't want to hear "her thighs are too big"..............  or "her boobs are too small/big", thats personal preference, not artistic merritt.   Don't tell me a woman i do looks "like a shrew"........ chances are thats the exact idea.  Give me intellegent critique, and I'm okay.  I post images to be seen, hopefully and enjoyed.

I create art, not just through my eyes, but with the potential viewer in mind.  I may not please all who view it, but I have something to say, you either listen to the story or you don't.

Tiara, I understand what you are saying, but we all have to admit that what one person thinks is a helpful critique, others will view as an insult.

Furthermore, we all have to admit that we are not the final authorities on what is art.

I don't mind someone pointing out blatant errors or little things that might make an image better.  But, so much is subjective.

I have a friend who sees a lot of my work and he so often tries to be helpful and inevitably points out things that I just can't agree with.  He has no understanding of 3D.  He'll say things about shadows and reflections and I get into this discussion about how the computer calculates the shadows and reflections, therefore they are technically correct.

Many people get hurt over "helpful critiques" because many of the crits are unfounded or uneducated.

Furthermore, everyone should just accept the fact that Renderosity is filled with hobbiests.  People who are addicted to posting and meeting friends and traveling that path.

There is nothing wrong with that.

And, we all have to come to terms with "Pop-Art".  "Pop" is short for popular and Pop is not always the cream of the crop, it is just the most popular and most commercial.  If you want to be a commercial artist, then study what is popular, you might learn something that will help you excel (when I say you, I am not intending to single any specific person out, btw.)

I know you dont mean "me" and i again wasn't pointing out any particular individual.   Critique is fine but it doesnt have to be mean.  There is a difference between artistic critique and personal bias.

On the subject of the Critique Forum.

I think it is a fantastic idea, but I think the crits should be kept in the forum.  People outside the forum may not understand and suddenly there might be weird flame wars and such that sprout up.

An alternative (and I don't know how practical this is) is another category in the galleries specifically for Constructive Crits.  A new category and an announcement about what it is and what it's purpose is on the front page an in the newsletter might help.

I think it is a great idea, but I would want artists to be limited on how many pics they post there.  Like one a week or something.  If we are going to help each other grow, we can't be bogged down with a hundred people doing a pic a day.  That's overwhelming and under productive.  But, that might just be my opinion.

Just to address this...

I tire of seeing the SAME AOM on the newsletters after three years.   There are more than 10 artists at this site for heaven's sake, can we see something new?

As of this year, Artists of the Month have to have not won AOM in the last five years, to discourage this very problem. (I probably phrased that badly but hopefully you know what I mean.)

I also do wish that a lot of the false modesty would be dropped.  Again I wont make friends, but the "art only for myself"........ doesn't that contradict the creation of art?  If it was only for ourselves, why would we belong to an art community?   The "i don't care what people think of my art"......... is probably the largest thought against human nature I've ever seen.  Everyone likes to be told they are doing a good job.   And if no one cared, why would you put it up for others to comment on?

I agree with this. Of course I want comments on my art, otherwise I would not post it. There are a very few pieces which I have made "just for me" (or sometimes for someone else) which I haven't posted because they're private (or too rude, hahahaha!) Everything else is on public display; ergo, I want the public to see it, and hopefully comment. That said, "Wow it's great hun xxx" is a nice ego-stroke, but I really value something like "The lighting is much better than your last pic, well done" - because it shows me specifically where I've grown, what I've got right, and what I can bring to my next image.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

ThrommArcadia wrote:  "Furthermore, everyone should just accept the fact that Renderosity is filled with hobbiests.  People who are addicted to posting and meeting friends and traveling that path."

That is a very good point.

I don't like the "add artist to fav list" for the critique sticky. I would suggest the artist posts that they have one to critique. They may want to post an image for fun and not have a bunch of people take it apart. Once you have posted to the critique thread you are already getting ebots, you can set your ebots for that and there is no real need for more. IMO.

Personally I think the mechanic of the commenting and favoriting system works is fine - I am just a bit annoyed to see 2/3 of the front page basically devoted to the same 9 images.  I know how to click the "next" button, or to view particular galleries of people I want to see.

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karen1573 - i love the idea of a critique sticky.  if it's another forum, then no one will go there.  look at the developers forum.  i'm sure there are several people building things, but they post to the software specific forums if they want to do w.i.p. 

i definitely want the critique with the image itself.  otherwise, it's a lot less useful.  not only would having the image elsewhere make it a p.i.t.a. to critique with constantly swapping between two tabs/windows (especially with how big most images appear), it would make it less useful to receive critique and have to look back and forth.

i actually like the favorite artists feature.  that would be perfect, imho.  if i really didn't want something critiqued, i'd label it "for fun" or some such.  and in any case, i'd rather have the info than not. i think posts are already great for people who want feedback only on particular images.  the whole point of what i'm interested in would be to get regular, steady feedback on every image i post, and regularly posting feedback on other people's works.  i'm not thinking of random threads.  i'm thinking of a consistent group of artists that can rely on each other for feedback.  i'm not sure that individual threads would do that.  but i certainly don't know what would work and am willing to try just about anything.

and i want to add that i'm absolutely thrilled and very thankful that the mods are discussing ways to help this happen.

i do think there would need to be a way get out of the group.   i think some sort of key phrase in the title  would be enough to exempt an image, but getting out of the loop altogether would be difficult to automate.  well, i'd think that could be done in the sticky thread, too.

ideally, there'd be a group feature to the site, but then this would be a very, very different web app.

ThrommArcadia - i think you raise some great points, but i differ with you on some.  i personally don't think knowing 3d is crucial to analyzing a cg image.   for instance, without knowing a thing about the image you're talking about with your friend, if i received criticism on shadows and reflections, i'd know i had to do something so that they looked right.  it doesn't matter to me if the person knows 3d, because i don't think someone should have to be an expert to get my image.   in fact, i'd rather have feedback from  someone who doesn't automatically disregard problems produced by the figure or software, as i think many of us do instinctively.

it's not an issue to me that some people are hobbiests - i think that's great and i knew that when i first registered here.   but this is the only creative community i've ever been a part of where people seemed to expect nothing less than "i love it!" and 5 stars when they put their work out for public review.  and worse, it seems to be the norm of politeness.  saying someone is less than absolutely perfect should not be an insult.  

 the fact of the matter is if when work or words become public, people will have lots of different reactions.  we need to find a balance, just as we do in any social situation.

but i am personally not interested in telling anyone else what they should want.  i am not trying to say people should be treated any differently.  i don't care (or at least not much) that others are more popular than i am.  that's not false modesty, that's practicality.  right now, it takes me ages to make pictures.  i need to get better as fast as i can, and i'll be faster if my skills advance.  i'm just saying i'm really interested in some thorough critiques, and i'd be more than happy to start critiquing people who would be interested in detailed feedback.  just about the only reason, imho, to post to a hobbiest site is to receive feedback that helps advance my work.  for that  it's great to get encouragement, but i also need advice on how to improve

I have to agree with almost everything in this thread. While I do agree that art is subjective, I have seen page after page of praise for an image, for example, that had the sun on a background, was lit from the front and of the three characters, the two that were kneeling on the ground had one intercepting the ground while the other floated above it.

This was all a while ago, at another site. But when you come along after 50 people have praised the image like it's the second coming of da Vinci, you kind of figure advice is not the order of the day.

That being said, I would also be interested in joining the critiquing group. I am a hobbyist, but I'd like to know why some images get no comments-- are they really that bad, and why others do seem to pique interest.

And... Thanks for commenting :biggrin:

kalonart.com

oh, and i don't find the present system enough. at all.  i personally never know if someone wants hand holding or a full critique.  and i don't think it's very clear to anyone else what i want just from my gallery posts.

Gnolt, drifterlee, GreyPixel - gee I thought this was an art community where people are supposed to respect each other...you seem to think it's Smack Down! Apparently you only posted in this thread to attack me. Thanks for showing people you can't keep a civil tongue in a discussion. If you don't have anything constructive to add to this thread, please take your hostility and insults elsewhere.

pjz99 - Apparently the PTB doesn't pay attention to the strong majority...unless it's the moral majority...lol! (Just kidding!) Seriously though, the Most Commented/Highest Rated are just the Hot 20 model times 2. It's still a popularity contest, and what's popular often isn't what's good.

I am fast coming to the conclusion that there isn't any answer and in the end, the cliques and mutual admiration societies will over-run the galleries.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

Well, I think a lot of you are missing the obvious:  The gallery here is mainly set up to promote sales in the Rendo marketplace.  Negative comments don't help that.  Ratings of 1-3 don't help that either.  You're dealing with two major buying blocs - those who post frequently tend to buy a lot of things, e.g. me; and those who view the gallery regularly are presented with uninterrupted, opt-in advertising, and many of them will buy things also.  The opinions of these buyers as to what is moral or intellectually valuable is really of no consequence to the marketplace, only their dollars.

My Freebies

cobaltdream I think you missed my point completely. I meant that the artist add a post in the sticky to the image. Everyone that has added to that sticky will get an ebot. There are no extra threads or forums. There is only one ebot and that is for an image to be critique. I don't see a reason for all the different labeling. Keep it simple. 

The way some slap images up pretty much every day, there needs to be some kind of control to the ebots.Could you imagine what it would be like if we could post 3 images a day like it used to be, all those ebots? I don't know about you but I get enough as it is. Hell, there were those that thought that was the end of the world when they could only post one image a day. You know the ones, "why post one good image in a week when I can post 3 poor images every day," people.

Quote -

I am fast coming to the conclusion that there isn't any answer and in the end, the cliques and mutual admiration societies will over-run the galleries.

I'm sorry, so what was the point of this then?  Are these cliques or mutual admiration societies really taking away comments from your pictures or something that's making you so upset?

Yes, sometimes it's bewlidering to see the naked vicky with sword get a hundred million hits.  But that may be their tastes, people may know the artist and like the person.  So what?  Is it any skin off of my back?

I would be interested in a Critique Forum too. Knowing who is willing to have their brains picked for tips would be really useful :)

Favoriting members seems like a good idea to me. If I don't want a critque on a particular image, can't I just say so when I post it?

I have never been able to figure out the star system. what makes an image one star or two or three , or even 4 instead of 5,totally confuses me. So if it's great (IMO) I give 5. If it's not, I don't give any. And I admit 5 is a knee jerk reaction. If I look at an image and my first thought is whether or not I could get way with stealing it, that image is a 5 :) 
(no I don't steal any. I just wish I could.)

beryld:

Quote - The way some slap images up pretty much every day, there needs to be some kind of control to the ebots.Could you imagine what it would be like if we could post 3 images a day like it used to be, all those ebots? I

 

IMO that's more of a problem with how notifications happen; if you feel you're getting too many notifications, it isn't right to make everyone else who uses the galleries to adopt new posting practices - set up a filter on your mail client, or lobby for some control over how many ebot notifications per day you get.

My Freebies

What about using the "non-critical comments are preferred" option when you don't want to be critiqued?

kalonart.com

OMG, I made through ALL four pages!! A lot of very good points and observations. Some I may underscore. To get back to tainted_hearts original post: Here's part of the problem, tainted_heart: 1. Your list of artists didn't include ME! ; ) 2. The artists in your list are good but that's still just subjective opinion, yours or mine. 3. This place is so big I amazed that after 8 years there are plenty of people whose work I have never seen. Like, this is so amazing how have I never seen this? 4. I can hardly believe I took the time to plow through everyone's post to this thread. So, while I agree with your original post and feel sometimes someone ( you, at this moment) has to say what you have said, I don't think it is worth the effort to change what is essentially the nature of the galleries/internet. Humans get attracted to praise, good feelings, drugs, sex, like-minded-ness. I also agree with those that say this thread will repeat in a month or so. I rarely leave constructive comments unless, by looking at the image, I believe that the artist is invested in their pursuit of a better image and might want to hear my "tip". There just isn't enough time to leave comments on work if the person doesn't have the desire or ability or appreciation to include a comment that isn't "this is wonderful". And to another person's comment re: having blind comments only The comments have been my avenue into other galleries that normally I wouldn't find. I see an interesting avatar with their comment and I'm intrigued to see what else they've done. Clearly, we all know this can be a blind alley as some avatars are acquired in ways other than via their own art. For the record: Yes, I see some pictures that I consider "bad", "painful" even, but somewhere out there someone might see my gallery and feel the same way.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

There is a Works in Progress gallery which, by its nature, would be open to helpful critiques of works as they are being created. Incomplete works are being posted so that helpful suggestions can be made while it is being developed.

Critiquing is always a dicey proposition. Helping somebody fix an obvious technical flaw is useful. Critiquing aesthetics is tricky because everybody has different levels of understanding in different areas. Professional critics routinely disagree on the merit of a work of art, literature or film. Watch an episode of Ebert and Roeper to see that the two critics disagree almost more often than they agree and, not infrequently, disagree drastically.

A less definable thing is understanding how much an artist can learn from a critique. Artistic growth takes time and practice to learn and improve. Sometimes criticism helps in that process and sometimes it doesn't. A lot of criticism is meaningless if the artist cannot see the problem.

I think it's fairly safe to say that most of us can look at our older artwork with embarrassment because we've grown as artists.  We can see things wrong in the past that we didn't see when we created them. What we didn't think was wrong in the past probably were things that we would not have understood had somebody pointed them out to us because they looked pretty good back then.

We've all seen critics, whose own artwork had glaring faults, that would be better served by improving their own work and not trying to improve that of others.

My visual indexes of Poser content are at http://www.sharecg.com/pf/rgagnon

"If you can't keep a civil tongue in your head......attacking me...." Tainted Heart thinks it's all right to attack and belittle popular artists, but God help the person who says anything about him! "Sticks non-civil tongue out again".

Quote - > Quote - I have yet to do a Naked Vicky In a temple with a sword

heavy head And that... is why you fail.

 

F**kin hysterical

Best laugh I've had all week.

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

pjz99 wrote: "IMO that's more of a problem with how notifications happen; if you feel you're getting too many notifications, it isn't right to make everyone else who uses the galleries to adopt new posting practices - set up a filter on your mail client, or lobby for some control over how many ebot notifications per day you get."

Completely missed my point with a non-solution.

Don't worry about it, I won't bother with the group. I'm keeping it simple.

Oh I see - I didn't realize you were talking about using the forums for that purpose, sorry.

My Freebies

beryld - hmmm. i think an ebot each time someone posts seems superfluous. why not just get an email with a link directly to the image? and a thread with all images to be critiqued would get pretty unwieldy.   besides, then the  thread can be kept for group issues, and image critique will stay with the image.  if the thread is used to post about the images, i think critique will start happening there.  but again, that's just me.  i do think your idea would work; i just think the thread for adding new members or leaving the group and favorites would work better.  and i think i think other people should state their preference.  i'm very willing to go with anything people agree on.

kalon - i think, though i could be mistaken, that the notion was less about not wanting any critical comments than not wanting an in-depth critique.  for instance, if someone posts a quickie of a new purchase just to test it out, they might actually know that the pose is boring or the composition is weak. 

gagnonrich - i'm not talking about works in progress.  i'm talking finished products. 

i don't have any wish to change the nature of this community or how anyone posts.  and yes, i know any critique is opinion based.  as someone mentioned, i'd love to know why some people like some of my images more than others.  i just thought it would be nice to work with other artists to improve my work.  as it is, i don't think people feel free to say what they really think.   and i know i don't.  not because i want to trash talk some images, but because i think some pointers might help certain artists grow.  but since it doesn't seem like many are interested, i guess it won't happen. 

Right, 10 artist post an image. If they posted a link to the sticky thread, you would only get 1 ebot until you checked the thread, But you all like to have 10 ebots, one for each image wether they want the critic of the image or not. You have to go there to find out. Now what happens on a weekend when many post images, it becomes an ebot nightmare.

Most of you prefer all the ebots, that's fine. I was just suggesting something that some can't grasp the concept of what I am saying. That's cool too. Not a big deal, I already know how to deal with the problem.

Now, someone mentioned the WIP gallery. That may be the best way to go and just have everyone check that gallery a little more often. Then there would not be a need for the sticky thread.

"My opinions do not reflect the opinions of the chosen few."

OK here's the deal. I read through the whole front page of this thread and then skipped to the end so I could post so I apologize if this seems out of context. 

First thing... Most times when I make my images I WILL start out with a library pose to get a general idea of where I'm going. When I see certain things in my mind as to how I would like it to turn out, its not so easy for me to turn it into reality. So on that note I believe that people do deserve some small amount of praise for coming up with a nice idea even if their presentation isn't so much... 

Secondly... I have been here at r'osity for several years and I consider myself an artist regardless of if I'm any good or not but because I truly enjoy doing this (playing dress-up dolls as some of my friends lovingly call it.) If I find myself browsing the 'What's New' uploads I look for the beginners... I do this because I remember what it was like to first start out with Poser (v.4 LOL) and I know how hard it is. I don't give rediculously happy --'Oh thats so byooteefull"- and stuff like that but I do say things like: 'Hey, great work on this and this and such' and then if I feel it necessary I will send them an email or IM on what they could do to improve. IMHO the comments option on images is really designed to be a motivational tool for anyone who wants to be an artist. If you do choose to be critical (option allowing) then be gentle... Many of these artists are new or not exactly used to harsh comments of the public. Who gives a rats hairy bumm about the people who have 300 comments/image? There are only so many generic comments to go around, just figure that they really only have about 15 -real- comments after lumping all the 'awesome' and 'beautiful' and 'incredible' comments apart. 

Another thing I tend to do is come here to the forums and get opinions on certain aspects of my images. For example: I went to the PSP forum to get opinions on an image I painted hair in.

Just remember, the older artists here can have their following but make sure to recognize the new artists because they could end up commenting on something you made! :)

Hawkfyr: Hey! Nice eh.... CAT!

OK, what I'm going to do is post a new sticky thread for those interested in getting and giving critique.

I'll leave it up to the individual members how they want to go about viewing galleries. If you want to add artists to faves, that's great (it will be what I do). If you want to just periodically check the thread and visit peoples' galleries, that's also fine. Initially we'll leave it open as to whether people post in the thread when they have a new work they want critiqued, or they can just make their gallery post and trust the ebots to tell everyone. We'll see how it goes. 

PLEASE join up and participate, folks, because unless we do, things will never change! And in six months' time we'll all be reading this same thread by another author!

Gonna make the sticky now...

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

no pun, no fun

Beryld:  You know, you don't necessarily have to subscribe to a thread like you're asking for to participate in it, you can just check it when you feel like - it'll be easy to find after all since it's proposed to be a sticky.  I never subscribe to any forum threads, myself (which was why I didn't get what you were saying initially).

Karen:  Thanks, maybe that will make some people happy.  I'll be using it myself for at least some images, probably not all.  You may want to put a strong note reminding people to flag their posts based on the content of the link they point to.

My Freebies

TOM!! :lol:

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

8  )~

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

pjz99 forget it. You still haven't caught on to what I was saying and It does not matter.it is of no importance. I have some morphs and clothes to work on and some clothes that need morphs added to work on. What can I say, I like modeling.

And sometimes I wonder.... Why is there still wars going on?

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Oh... I rest my case. Nothing like a cat to shut ME up ;-)

Never underestimate the power of the cat.

 

8 )

 

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

Rule 4: During controversial multi-page posts, blow past everyone else's opinion, post a huge block of text without considering whether that point has already been made or not and sit back and expect plenty of acknowledgement. Or: Just post pictures of cats. My favorite is the one with the beer and the remote. BTW, I'm not complaining one person actually checked out MY gallery because of this thread. Thanks, SoCalRoberta for your comment.

hey....5 pages for the cats to appear....is that a new record? ;-)

I'm a bit perplexed why people who've got no uploads in the past several months are asking for critiques in the other thread. 

My Freebies

hawkfyr, you are the funniet guy I know! I saved your drinking cat .gif because we have three cats, but don't worry, I won't post it on the Russian porn site, LOL!

I think it is important to remember that some gallery users, regardless of experience, are really very social and people-oriented. More socially active artists always have more views and friend responses.

Lots of people don't forum post often but are very active with IM, adding people to their favoroites and such.

I think it is really okay regardless of who comments or how many comments or what they say.

Some artists are just quiet people. As  a result the their work my get less response. But I don't think that means their work isn't appreciated.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - Rule 4: During controversial multi-page posts, blow past everyone else's opinion, post a huge block of text without considering whether that point has already been made or not and sit back and expect plenty of acknowledgement. Or: Just post pictures of cats. My favorite is the one with the beer and the remote.

 

Hey, I did warn you at the beginning of my post that I jumped to the end :P

And I personally like the Military kitten... way too cute!

wait.  i certainly wasn't trying to be controversial. i am not trying to change how anyone uses their gallery or comments in anyone else's.  all i'm trying to do is trade critiques with others.  i'm very glad karen has established a way for us to do this.

beryld - i believe i get what you want, and pretty much did from the start except for thinking you wanted more than one thread per artist.  i just personally disagree.  i could get into why, but i don't see a point in it.  i find favorites easier, and i can do that.  and i want feedback on finished works, not w.i.p's, which is totally different, imho.  there are tons of forums for that, and i'd use one of  those should i want that.

Agreed, Anton. Did you check out my Apollo in my gallery? I think he's hot stuff! Thanks!

Don't worry drifterlee, It never entered my mind that you would engage in "Kitty Porn".

 

This guy here on the other hand....?1?!

 

Thanks

8 )

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

I might have known those kitties would soon show up. it's the third law of 'rosity: if a thread lasts long enuff, the kittie pix will eventuallly appear :lol:

"Kittie Porn" OMG, how did I not see that one coming? But then, how could I have stopped it? : ) I'm not a cat fanatic by any definition but that gif animation is hysterical. I don't care where you're from, that's funny right there.

I love the boxing kitten :)   

Thanks, Karen, I'm off to sign up!

From what I read in the sticky, it looks like you are going to control the art charts. So it looks like your back to the original post in a round about way. You will critique each other and get your images into the top ranks. Not much different than having all the friends, is it.

I would think that if you are going to use the excuse of being critique, maybe you should have a special gallery that does not use the post/view count. Then again, maybe that is the whole plan to get these images in the top ranks. I'm confussed, what's the difference between the populars and the Critiques now?

Hm... I think someone deleted a post from me because I used the P-word for cat. Or did it just not get through? hm...

Hm... I think someone deleted a post from me because I used the P-word for cat. Or did it just not get through? hm...

No, you can say "pussy" all you like (I'm guessing that was the word!)

*From what I read in the sticky, it looks like you are going to control the art charts.

Unlikely.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Yeah, the people who tend to be in the top comment/rating category have 70-100+ of each, the critique group has about 30 signed up, even if everyone was very vigorous in critiquing every submission.

My Freebies

I see, it's ok for you to take over the gallery but not them. So what happens when the group grows as it most likely to for the weekend. There are only 30 you say now but that is just the first day and started in the middle of the week.

If your wondering why I bother posting in this toasted thread, it is, I didn't want to ruin the sticky thread for what it was intended.

Beryl, I must be missing something. Who is talking about "taking over" the art charts? The purpose of the group is to solicit critique. This is what the gallery function is supposed to be about.

Nobody is soliciting high ratings, image faves, or store credits, which are an integral part of the art chart calculations.

I am curious to know how you feel an agreement to comment honestly on each others' works is unfair or unethical? As compared to everyone else who has favourite artists and will comment on each of their uploads, whether honestly or not?

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

The point is to have the comments be a way to improve what you need to work on and know what it is you're doing right. As a reminder, the group was set up for -anyone- to join so the 'them' you speak of are welcome as well. They just need to realize that we're not going to 'oooh and aahh' the snot out of them, we're going to say what we think. 

Its not about getting topped in the charts, if it were... we would restrict the group to certain members wouldn't you think? 

I think its a great idea and look forward to seeing what happens with it.

You not looking at the whole picture. As soon as you have all the critiques posting the charts change. It's not what you say, it is still the most views and postings. So yes you are dictating the top images.

I see your not going to agree with this in your just cause. I was looking at the outcome and wondered what was the difference. I thought the critique club was a good idea but not when it can control the galleries. That is why I thought that there might be a why to keep that from happening. But looks like you do want that. Oh well.

Karen1573 you admitted that it would influence the art charts on the very first page of the sticky thread. I"m not saying this to argue, I was trying to point out something that you all were complaining about and then turn around and can do the same thing now.

I understand that if you had not started this new group now, when you had the chance, it might not have happened. That's a good thing. Just don't become what you criticized in the first place.

Time will show the truth.

well personally i couldn't care less about getting on the artcharts....i'm more interested in the critiques...and if you want other ppl in the art charts....then go and "oooh" and "aahh" some pics in the gallery.

Well, that was a completely missed, useless, off the point comment.

ummm.....you said it would influence the art charts......i said i couldn't care less bout the art charts.........yeah..... its completely off the point

beryld - no one said anything about it being fine to take over.  i believe pjz99's point was that the only thing we're doing is commenting.  since the "Today's Most Commented" images are between 80 and 48 comments, and we're only 30 people so far, even if every member commented on every image,  we'd be far from the top. 

i am deliberately not rating anything i critique.  but even if i was, i doubt that the number of ratings would help.  because the whole point is to be more critical - so no more easy 5's.  since "Today's Top Rated" images have from 50 to 22 perfect ratings, again, it's very doubtful the group would influence ratings.

and since the "art charts" have even more complex logic than these two simple ways, i don't see the point of your complaints.  i think that if anything, this will be a detriment to the uber popular love fest some have.  for one thing, others not in the group will see the more critical comments.  human nature dictates that people will be influenced by them.  so they'll see the imperfections, and be more likely to give their own critique and less likely to give a perfect rating.  unless they're just looking to make themselves popular (not much you can do in that case).  i don't think it will be nearly as easy to become the next hot new artist here with 4 or 5 critical comments in the mix.

it seems to me that you're grasping at potential negatives in something that's the most positive and community driven change i've seen in a long time.  i'm not sure why.

I honestly don't think it's likely any of us will come anywhere near disturbing the art charts at all, and if so, the regular leaders in the art charts only have to join the list themselves if they like, and thus get scads more comments than they already do.

My Freebies

yeah, I reckon I see beryl's point. although very few folks will sign up in the criticism thread (compared to the total number of folks posting images), those asking for criticism will see a change in their ratings, compared to those who aren't explicitly asking for criticism. does it mean that those who don't ask for real criticism will be left to stagnate in a bog of meaningless comments, as they are now? perhaps not, as I have a feeling that we're gonna see threads in this forum complaining about unfair criticism, once the process gets into full gear, and the process will quickly taper off as a result.

Pussy.

(I just wanted to say that. Karen said we're allowed to say pussy, so I thought I would say pussy.)

Pussy.

(OK. I got that out of my system. Carry on.)

I have a hot young pussy on my desk right now....

Beryl, the Art Charts are calculated on a variety of factors, as I already stated... not just comments.

In fact, if members of our critique group use the rating system, they will be doing so honestly (not just blindly awarding 5s all round as is the custom) so it may actually disadvantage the artist in terms of the charts.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Lavonne!  :lol:

My Freebies

Well even though my images, the few that I have opsted, are flagged for nice critiscism, I'm not totally adverse to having things pointed out that actually teach me something. "You Suck", however, isn't one of the critiscism's I care to hear. (Even though I consider myself to be extremely good at "sucking!") :a_blush:

OH MY GOD! Karen! That is one of the cutest pussies I have ever seen! REALLY!

Calico cats are one of my all time favorites!

Aw! She looks so fuzzy too! Her facal markings are GORGEOUS!

Thanks for sharing! A cute kitty cat always makes me happy!  :)

ok...i've re-read my comment and i fail to see anything that i've accused you of

edited for typo

Quote - I have a hot young pussy on my desk right now....

 

ROFL that lil kitten looks like it wants to say: I know what you're saying about me but I'm too young to understand what it means...

Really? Looks like an accusation to me.

"and if you want other ppl in the art charts....then go and "oooh" and "aahh" some pics in the gallery."

umm....an accusation is generally where you accuse someone of doing something... 

eg......"all beryld does is oooh and aaah pics in the gallery".... 

a suggestion is where you suggest someone go do something

 eg.... "and if you want other ppl in the art charts....then go and "oooh" and "aahh" some pics in the gallery."

Yes, you are accusing me of wanting that, "and if you want," which I am not in favor of per say.

This will just go in circles just like the whole topic will in time, again. I've stated my thoughts and concerns and have been told that I'm wrong. Fine. See you in the next thread when it comes up.

whatever

Lord, Karen, that is one adorable moggy. I don't know why I love cats so much. Maybe it's because they have the ability to willingly transcend their natures as the ultimate feral gunslingers of nature and bond so completely and sweetly with humans.

Oh GOD! She wrote the P-word!!! hehehe. okidoki I'll write it again if I ever need to do it. I just hit the wrong button or something.

Attached Link: http://pics.livejournal.com/pocket_saviour/gallery/0000zhxk

Well, now that we've gone totally off topic, you can see some more pics of my pussy (hurr, hurr) at the attached link.

I have got some more pics on my camera but I haven't transferred them yet. They are about 15 weeks now, I think, and growing almost visibly :-)

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Ah... off topic at last. Now just to explain about PUSSY in norwegian. That word(norwegian PUS) have no dirty meaning at all. But if you write about MOUSE!!! Now that's DIRTY. hehe. 

Love the kittens. :-)

cute gallery of kitten pics...... of course, if I give you a lot of "oooo's" and "aaawwww's" that might bring this thread back in line.... but I don't want to do that   ;-)

I have to, just need to,  give one "oooooh" and "aaaah"  on the kittens pics!
So cute!
(sorry 1358)

since the "Today's Most Commented" images are between 80 and 48 comments, and we're only 30 people so far, even if every member commented on every image,  we'd be far from the top.

please believe me when i say i am not picking on anybody by typing my thought process to the above :))

if the group grows, then it will become a factor
if say BillyBob123Niner [made up name i hope] already receives on the average 16 or so comments naturally without signing up, then signs up, he will start to receive on average 46 or comments, so it will artificially effect the 'Most Commented' section [a pointless section to begin with, imo, but not my point]

i'd much rather see & participate in a Critique Forum rather than have things occur within the Galleries... i'd prefer not to have this wonderful idea tainted by negative perspectives or suspicions, like joining to artifically inflate one's Favourite listing or to get in the Most Commented section or whatever... anything that could be done to help the perception of true intent of the group, i feel, is extremely important, especially since some people participating might already feel more "vunerable" due to opening up to critiques in the first place...

in your scenario, every single person in the group posted.  the group is in effect now.  the only people i've seen  with lots of comments are the people who already had lots of comments (as in several pages).  so far as i've seen, people who get 3 to 6 comments now have 6 to 9 comments.  if the group grows huge... frankly, i don't know.  i think it depends on the culture.  i'm taking an average of 15 to 20 minutes per comment.  i'm not sure tons of people will do that.  if you're worried about the culture of the group shifting, i'd  say join in (even without doing the favorites) and start posting the kind of reviews you think should be happening.

and you're arguing on both sides.  you're saying the intent of the group needs to be clear because people will be scared to join but then saying tons of people will join to be popular.  it can't really be both.

it amazes me how many people are already deciding what will happen without actually checking what's going on now.  nothing like this initiative has been tried, but people keep talking about negative effects.  whereas just about every other solution suggested has been tried for other initiatives (critique thread, critique forum, critique gallery) and all pretty much crashed and burned.  multiple times.  this is the main forum; people won't go elsewhere unless there's a really pressing need.  hence the complete lack of traffic in the developers and w.i.p. forums.  it's not that nobody's doing that work and posting about it, it's that they post to modeling software threads at most and usually post here.  tons of people use more digital manipulation, digital painting and photographs than poser, but they fight  not to have to post to mixed medium because they get no views there.  i've seen people post to the poser gallery who are rendering in bryce and vue.  and threads  get messy, go off topic, then die.  right now the subscription thread has turned into a discussion.  that's what threads are for.  i've never seen any long thread actually stay completely on topic, let alone receive only the type of posts it was supposed to have.  so we could easily be stuck wading through pages and pages of posts (and tons of useless ebots when the inevitable disagreement came along, as it does in even the most friendly of group threads)  just to have to find the few image postings. 

and frankly, favorites last.  why do these buddy networks work?  because people make lots of favorites and get notices and keep posting to each other's pics.  their method works for generating feedback, because it works proactively.   in point of fact, it is the absolutely only way i've  seen a commenting / response group work.  including at artzone, which seems to be rapidly dying (based on the lack of updates i've seen in the many, many people i've bookmarked and the few i've added as friends, the stabilization of the number of users, and other signs of lowered activity).  even though it has actual community tools like groups you can join with membership controlled by group leaders.  i've watched everything else die pretty quickly.  there's a reason blogs have their own rss feeds instead of just posting to one main blog directory.  in fact, blogs became hugely popular precisely when rss feeds and rss readers became popular. 

no matter what people's intent, unless there is an image by image notification external to the wealth of unpopular and unfrequented forums or galleries,  and an ability to comment right then and there, i do not believe they will consistently comment.  i don't know it will work this way, but at least that's had some success.

it really doesn't matter how you slice it, either.  the important thing is always going to be the culture of the group.   there are zero things you can do to get a group of people to view your work and absolutely eliminate the possibility of it becoming a way to become popular.  community interaction helps make you popular.  whether this will actually be an influential  subcommunity, i don't know.  but i really doubt it.

right now the strategy is wait and see.  personally, i want this to succeed, and since every alternative solution people have raised, i've seen fail spectacularly, i think trying something that has been proven to work is better.

We'll know for the first time
If we're Evil or Devine 
We're the Last in LIne

*and you're arguing on both sides.  you're saying the intent of the group needs to be clear because people will be scared to join but then saying tons of people will join to be popular.  it can't really be both.

*actually that's not what i said, nor even what i meant... i did not attribute any intent on BillyBob123Niner's motivation to join - i truly was only thinking of things from a mathematical perspective :))

in terms of "deciding negative effects", honestly? i've not done that either, neither here nor in my head... my intent on that part was trying to think of potential negative effects and ways to possibly navigate away from them before they even occurred if they occur[red]... i'm a planner by nature and i've a habit of trying to think of scenarios and/or consequences in advance as well as trying to see things from as many different perspectives [whether i agree with them or not] as possible in order to try to determine what i feel would be the best course of action - that's just how i'm hardwired...

i realise you don't know me or anything really about me, and that quite possibly you'll never care to, but i am quite sincere in wanting something like a Critique Group to be met with as much success as possible... you've no idea how much actually [soft smile]

*no matter what people's intent, unless there is an image by image notification external to the wealth of unpopular and unfrequented forums or galleries,  and an ability to comment right then and there, i do not believe they will consistently comment.  i don't know it will work this way, but at least that's had some success.

*wouldn't subscribing to a forum achieve the same thing?
i'm asking this honestly without any sarcasm or rancor because i thought one could subscribe to a particular forum so that any time someone posts to it, an ebot is sent? is this incorrect? [i've never done it so i truly don't know...] :o

*nothing like this initiative has been tried, but people keep talking about negative effects.  whereas just about every other solution suggested has been tried for other initiatives (critique thread, critique forum, critique gallery)

*there's been a critiquing forum before?  i never knew that, but i typically don't visit forums either so it wouldn't surprise if there had been...heh... someone kindly whispered in my ear about the potential of a critique group since they knew i'd be very interested, and that's how i got here :))
if the prior forum existed and failed, do you think think it might've been more due to a different climate than what exists today?  due to different forum software where there wasn't a way subscribe & receive notifications about anything either?  my memory may be faulty on this, but i think when i first joined Rendo there wasn't even a Favourites type of thing [i think it was implemented in 2k2?]

Quote - since the "Today's Most Commented" images are between 80 and 48 comments, and we're only 30 people so far, even if every member commented on every image,  we'd be far from the top.

please believe me when i say i am not picking on anybody by typing my thought process to the above :))

if the group grows, then it will become a factor
if say BillyBob123Niner [made up name i hope] already receives on the average 16 or so comments naturally without signing up, then signs up, he will start to receive on average 46 or comments, so it will artificially effect the 'Most Commented' section [a pointless section to begin with, imo, but not my point]

i'd much rather see & participate in a Critique Forum rather than have things occur within the Galleries... i'd prefer not to have this wonderful idea tainted by negative perspectives or suspicions, like joining to artifically inflate one's Favourite listing or to get in the Most Commented section or whatever... anything that could be done to help the perception of true intent of the group, i feel, is extremely important, especially since some people participating might already feel more "vunerable" due to opening up to critiques in the first place...

 

 As someone who agreed with ya, I feel I must let you know that BillyBob123Niner is actually my real name and I am highly highly offended!

J/k. :)

"I am enough of an artist to draw freely upon my imagination. Imagination is more important than knowledge." Albert Einstein

Free the freebies!

hehehe...
thank you thank you thank you!! for the ::giggle::

i didn't realise just how much i needed one until i started hearing myself laughing :o

Karen, those  are lovely puddy-tats :)  (huge maternal drool here! Look at the sweet faces!!!!). any thread with kitty photos is always a good thread!

Giana:

Quote - if the group grows, then it will become a factor

I don't understand the problem.  If it becomes a regular thing that 80 or so people will reliably, honestly, thoughtfully critique someone's postings - I would call that genuine cultural change here, and a very good one.

My Freebies

Bah
Another topic goes off on a diff tangent, you will allways get certain people will allways comment on certain peeps work.
It's like they have a sex fetish thing about certain artist's, just like certain people go in mass histeria and sexual lust when a new microsoft operting system comes out.
Will allways happen and will never end.

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

This is sort of a dead horse, but I have to agree with Anton.  Some people are more commented on because they comment on other people's images.  Some because of the genre that they work in (pinups).  Some are frequently viewed because they conduct their artwork in series so viewers remain interested in their work.  And others, simply because they are well known.

A couple years ago, it was much easier to try to tailor my work to try to get more views and comments; or comment in the galleries in hopes that more social activity would mean more views.  Now I definitely just create what interests me.

There is no formula for what will constitute getting your images viewed and commented on.  Nudity and pinups have typically been said to be higher viewed.  But I have done nudity and pinups with lower views and comments compared to other images at the same time.  Other preconceptions might say that images of women are more viewed and commented on than men.  While this tends to be true, it is not a rule.  I have done images of women that have been largely ignored and had images of men that had a few comments.

The disparity in views and comments use to really bother me.  Now I have accepted that I have a fan base of people are who consistent in viewing my images.  At the end of the day, I think that's pretty much all you can do...

I find it more than a little odd that the OP and certain other vehement participants in this thread have not expressed interest in the critique cabal.

My Freebies

*Giana:
*Quote - "if the group grows, then it will become a factor"

*I don't understand the problem.  If it becomes a regular thing that 80 or so people will reliably, honestly, thoughtfully critique someone's postings - I would call that genuine cultural change here, and a very good one.

*can i just first say that i am very very supportive of this whole thing? that i am hoping quite desperately for exactly what you stated - a cultural shifting...

my concerns started to blossom a bit after reading some of the things in this thread plus just some thoughts free-ranging in my own head... no, actually, that's not quite right - some of it is driven more by feelings than intellect, so if i stumble here in trying to express them, it lies mostly in trying to find the proper words to accurately define & then to translate into some the written word...

i would like to see/hope/sense that the group is taken seriously in terms of being something viable, a good tool that is stimulating growth, that is stimulating honest encouragement, that is stimulating relationships [because i'm betting that those who who parttake in the group will most likely form a certain kind of bond due to honesty, trust, common goals, routine exposure, etc.]... all the good things that fall within the idea, or p'raps my idea, of true community.

what i don't want is an Us vs. Them mentality surrounding the group, be it something coming from the group itself or a thing surrounding the group by others.  yes, it is open to anyone who cares to join, non-exclusive, no elitism - i get that.  and yes, one cannot control anyone else's perceptions so why worry about it, right?  the thing is is that i do worry, whether that's a rational thing or not, and no matter what i understand intellectually, i feel it...
i'm all for the "underdog", have been my entire life, often being ostrasised by the 'alpha' group because i "backed the wrong horse" in their opine.  i mention this only in hopes of better explaining where i coming from...
i don't want to see a person's artwork discounted solely based on the fact that they'e part of the Critique Group... i'll just use the Most Commented Section as an example... if say 50 people are rigorously participating, consistantly commenting, etc., and images from the group are routinely in that section, it could be very easy for a person who has not joined to come along and say/think/gossip that the only reason the artwork is there is because of the creator's "buddies"/group.  that kind of mentality already existed prior to the group's incarnation, so why wouldn't it continue, if you see what i mean? then the focus is back on a person's name rather than the art - obviously through no one's doing since that's just how 'sity has things set-up.  but it worries me to think that someone in the group, someone who is seeking honestly a way to improve & who is asking for help, who has opened themselves up to truthful feedback, could have their artwork so casually discounted & discarded solely based on those very things...

i've been typing & thinking on this for an hour almost now [though you'd think there'd be more to show for it, yes? heh], and i am quite unsure if any of this makes sense or not to you or to anybody... my thoughts have become too jumbled for the mo', so i'll stop here...

i would only ask anyone reading this to realise that i'm a fairly shy person and that i do feel vunerable to a degree typing out into public some of my private/personal thoughts/feelings - so if anyone cares to jump on me in some way for anything i've said, could you p'raps jump a little softly? [li'l smile]

first off, just as an fyi, i'm not upset or angry.  i'm open to getting to know everyone in this thread.  i think the criticisms and alternate ideas have been offered with thoughtfulness and care, and done politely.  and i think that everyone who's showed concern about the critique group has shown that they are interested, that they care about the idea, and they just want it done in the most positive way possible.  i just think the slant seems to be more towards the possible negatives of this implementation and not of negatives of the others proposed.  and don't necessarily take into account that every solution will have potential negatives; it's more about how the group behaves than the mechanism.

no, there hasn't been a critique forum.  but there is a developer's forum for people to post w.i.p projects.  it has nearly zero  traffic.  there's never been a critique gallery, but i was around when penguinisto first posted his teen v3 made with her base morphs (her face was much more genuinely teen than laura's).  he posted all his morph settings with it.  the next thing you know,  other people were sharing of settings for characters.  so rendo created the character formula gallery, for people to post characters and their morph settings to share (hence the "formula").  within a very short period of time, people were using it incorrectly for everything from promoting commercial morph poses to showing custom made figures.  so it went from this really positive initiative where we'd share information to make great figures to another gallery with little activity. 

and those are both single examples.  i've seen that type of thing happen again and again with both galleries and forums on different sites.

no, i wouldn't say subscribing to threads is the same.  first of all, any thread, even at one per image, will have drift and personality.  as an example, Giana, you posted this same argument  to a sticky meant only for "i'm subscribing" or "i'm unsubscribing."   you had another place to put your concerns, but you still brought the conversation to (technically) the wrong place.  this isn't (at all)  to single you out- i myself have posted opinions and such in that thread.  it's just to illustrate that even someone employing great thought and care, and driven by the best intentions, will take a thread off track.  forums are meant for conversations.  i don't need to be notified every time someone offers a new critique, gets into a disagreement, posts tangential thoughts or pictures of kittens.  forums have a much lower signal to noise ratio than galleries.  i don't know of any forum software that would alert me only with new images.

also, here i've posted how many times?  i'll never comment on an image more than once.  i don't  even  think the system allows it.  a forum or thread or any discussion would be quickly dominated by the same personality trends presently dominating the forums.  then it would become a clique.  right now, it doesn't matter at all who you are.  i don't really know anything about people other than what they want artistically if they said so.  i'm looking at their work, not reacting to whether they like dogs and hate cats or who they voted for in the last election.  or, more saliently, whether they sided with anton or shahara in the blow-up over clark.

right now, if a shy person signs up, and they have basically the same experience as someone more verbose (like me).  that wouldn't be the case at all if the critiques entirely took place in the discussion boards.

regarding participation: as i mentioned before, people fight when the issue of removing their type of work from the poser gallery or their type of post from this forum arises.  that's because people don't really traffic the other forums or other galleries.  we're not trying to dominate, but i don't think we should force people to hide their work, either.

if it takes place in another forum, it will die.  if the critiques take place in thread(s) in this forum, they'll become discussions and will become social groups about personalities and not just the work.  and people will actually be excluded instead of just feeling like they are.  if it leaves the poser gallery, images won't be seen.

and i have to add to  the questions that pjz99 posted.  it seems like the worst case scenario proposed is that images with lots of thoughtful criticism will be high profile.  and while people might not want to join, all they'd have to do to if they did want to is post "let me in" in a thread.  not post tons of positive remarks on everyone's images, not campaign for popularity, just one post in one thread and they're in.  how is this bad?  because people might fear it?  if the images get into the gallery at all, and are open for comments and ratings, people will fear a group.  there is no technology that will remove the positive effects of participation in a community.  and i think that's good.

believe me, i understand being the underdog.  that's always where i am, too.  personally, i grew up as outside the norm in pretty basic ways i won't get into here.  but you can only do so much to reach out.  and it doesn't matter where it happens, people afraid of groups are going to be afraid of this group.  and i think most other solutions, including continuing to talk about it and make ourselves (as members) more visible as people outside of our artwork, will only intensify the issue.  i think the best we can do, no matter what the mechanism, is to respond to people who feel left out with a hearty, "come on in!  we'd love to have you."

oh, and a note- the last part about posting is directed at myself.  after this monster post, i'll shut up and let other people talk ;D.  please feel free to continue discussing this, and know i still care.

peace out.

one more thing: Giana- i'm really very glad you've expressed your opinions both here and in the critique thread.  it's been a pleasure to debate with someone with so much heart and who expresses themselves with so much care.  i hope to see more of you in the future.

  Giana, I think your fears are well founded because there is a truth behind them. I'm not going to go as far as "discounting" the success of critique group artists but I will recognize that it's the product of a artificial system imposed on the main gallery. People in the group haven't earned their hits/comments by appealing thumbnails or developing a fan base but because they signed their names to a list and implicitly agreed to comment on other people's work within the group. Look at next week's "50 most popular artists" list, it'll be dominated by the critique group. Why? Because they signed their names.
  I think the critique group is a positive thing and hopefully the emphasis will be on quality critiques, I'm just saying it'll render a lot of stats meaningless (which people shouldn't be concerned about anyway :-)).

Okay, if the Holy Applecart starts to get tipped over, the regularly gallery dominators will simply join this effort if they're willing and/org eager to get this kind of commentary.  What's the problem?  I'm not seeing any us-vs.-them mentality except from people who are *not participating.

*As I see it, this is simply using the galleries exactly as they're designed, for a really pretty moral and useful application.  Of course it can be abused, but if that starts to become a problem many people will drop out of it - I would, I know many others would.

My Freebies

As the Original Poster...I dropped out of the thread after the mod not only allowed the intentional disruption and attempted hijacking of the thread with the cat pictures...she did it herself. I find that just plan rude, and I suspect, a TOS violation. Certain members do this all the time...they see a discussion they don't approve of and the next thing you know it's hijacked and flooded with cat pictures.

As far as the critique cabal...if you want to be a part of it, feel free. My primary point was that there are too many cliques stroking each other whether the images deserve it or not. The Most Commented and the Highest Rated are just the HOT 20 with different names. There's no point to them and they should be removed from the front page. The are not representative of the highest quality artwork on the site in most cases. We need more honesty and fewer "mutual admiration societies". There was a discussion about the new thumbnail rule in which a mods stated to the effect that the site needed to look more professional...yet they create the Most Commented and Hightest Rated and the Art Charts which are still nothing more than popularity contests...and popular doesn't alway add up to good.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

Dang...That's gunna leave a mark.

8 )

 

Tom

“The fact that no one understands you…Doesn’t make you an artist.”

If the Most Commented, Highest Rating, and Top 20 are so upsetting, why not just NOT LOOK at them?

I think I've seen them once in the entire time I've been a member here. Ratings don't interest me.

Quote - If the Most Commented, Highest Rating, and Top 20 are so upsetting, why not just NOT LOOK at them?

I think I've seen them once in the entire time I've been a member here. Ratings don't interest me.

SoCalRoberta,

I think what triggered this entire thread is that, with the default gallery settings, you get 27 images on the front page of the galleries. Only 1/3 are new images, the other two thirds are split between Today's Most  Commented and Today's Most Rated. With this new setup it's hard to avoid not looking at them.

kalonart.com

Oh, I always thought the front page of the gallery was just the newest images.

One last kitty.

I actually like the kitties, they are adorable and a good distraction too! Give me a kitty anytime!!

I will say this about that- I personally like honest crits IF they are given by someone that knows what they are talking about. The first thing I do when I get a crit is to look at that persons gallery and decide the validity of thier remark based on the level of thier work. I will almost always thank them for thier time and then either use the advice or not. NOW the exception - frigg'n TROLLS - I have no idea why some people with no talent , drive ,or desire lurk around boards and post assinine comments - I guess it is just the nature of the internet. personally I think that if you do not post work for others to see you don't get to bash others. - just my $0.02

Well, I think this is a popular point of view. And it may very well apply to some points of technical criticism. But to subscribe wholly to that theory would mean that only chefs could tell if a dish were well prepared. Only other writers could tell if a book were well written...

Almost anyone with visual acuity can tell you if something is not right with an image, they may not be able to tell you how to correct it or even explain what it is that's not right.

Let's say that you posted an image where the foot was through the floor and I commented on it. It wouldn't matter if you checked out my gallery and found forty pictures with the feet poking through the floor, the comment about your image is still valid.

Don't get me wrong, I've looked at other people's galleries based on their critique. But the first thing I did, was look at the problem pointed out to me and tried to objectively determine the validity of the comment. Was I successful? Maybe... Maybe not.

kalonart.com

The first thing I do when I get a crit is to look at that persons gallery and decide the validity of thier remark based on the level of thier work.

i know folks that do exactly that, too, jf, but i'm not sure that it is a good indicator of the validity of their advice.  i say this because i had a friend [non-online] who i knew/know well enough to say has very little talent in terms of drawing/painting, and yet was able to give me some extremely good advice from time to time, if you see what i mean? :))

yet they create the Most Commented and Hightest Rated and the Art Charts which are still nothing more than popularity contests...and popular doesn't alway add up to good.

i agree.  i'm not interested by them either.  the thing is is that the problem lies more with how those things are used and not with those things themselves. personally, i'd love to see those things removed as well if for no other reason than to create a more relaxed environment, so to speak, and maybe a greater sense of community, but i'm not sure removing them actually addresses what i perceive to be the real problem which is how they are used since what drives them is people's behaviours/tendencies... i'm not asking you to agree, but does that make any sense? 

uh, what kalon said since it was far more eloquent :))

Quote -

i agree.  i'm not interested by them either.  the thing is is that the problem lies more with how those things are used and not with those things themselves. personally, i'd love to see those things removed as well if for no other reason than to create a more relaxed environment, so to speak, and maybe a greater sense of community, but i'm not sure removing them actually addresses what i perceive to be the real problem which is how they are used since what drives them is people's behaviours/tendencies... i'm not asking you to agree, but does that make any sense? 

I agree. But at issue is that only some of us perceive the current state of the galleries as problematic. It's clear that any number of people are delighted with the status quo. So, I think you have to look at the motivating factors before you can effect any change...

• Some people post to get honest feedback on how they are doing...
• Some people post to get their ego stroked...
• Some want attention...
• Some want validation.
• Some people post to sell their/or their friends products...
• Some people post what I think of as postcard art. I don't mean that offensively-- the image itself may be good, bad or indifferent, but it's purpose is to get their online friends to drop in and socialize.
• Some people may even post just to have a portfolio online and are completely indifferent to comments or ratings.

That's just some of the motivations that I can perceive and of those listed the majority probably have no issue with how the gallery is currently functioning and think the community is great.

Just my two cents...
Pearl

kalonart.com

That's cheating! Now I'm just agreeing with myself! :laugh:

kalonart.com

i wholly agree... motivation and behaviours go hand in hand.  that's actually a pretty good list you put up there, Pearl, and i can only assume that a person's motivation to post might traverse across that list too, posting one day to socialise, posting the next in want of honest feedback, and the like.

Tainted_heart:

Quote - As far as the critique cabal...if you want to be a part of it, feel free. My primary point was that there are too many cliques stroking each other whether the images deserve it or not.

 

Well, now is your chance to participate in change.  Pick up a gun and go to the front lines!

My Freebies

hey, just a minuite now! since when are we posting images of felinophagia? it's anathema here, I tell ya! the cliques will be up in arms over this latest atrocity :lol: p.s. I'd like to comment on why folks post images here, but there is no politically correct way to do it. :lol:

On a more serious note, Hawk, "12 Die in Tragic Crash".

~GASP!~ Alcohol abuse!! :laugh:

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

I think we need to hold a minutes silence to show our respect, they died too young.

I do apologize to the folks that complained about some of "Trying to hijack the thread with cat pictures".  Evidentily, they didn't get the point. I think they need to notiffy Homeland Security if they are in the US that anyone carrying cat pictures onto an airplane is a hijacking risk, LOL!

The posting of cat pics was wrong, funny, but wrong no matter how you look at it or what the point was.

The thread was about something that started about a problem and a good idea that unfortunatly turned into a twisted version of the ooo's and aaah's,  that has taken over the art charts, which is condoned because it's hiding behind the name of Critique Group. I did warn you this would happen if the right messures were not taken.

I don't know which is worse now. The ooo's groups or the fanatic Critique group that is bragging about it.

You can go back to your pussy posting now.

ummm....beryld.....you do know this is renderosity right? eventually all threads end up with cat pics.....

It seems really rude to intentionally disrupt a serious discussion with multiple posts of cat pictures or broken beer bottles, or anything else not pertinent to the discussion. Not approving of the discussion or disagreeing with what is being said is no reason to disrupt it. There are people that are interested in participating in the discussion and exchanging ideas and concerns. This happens all too often in threads and it's ceased being a "cute little joke" and has become a complete annoyance!

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

actually, I think it's different. the "ooohs and aahhs group" tended to post images that were never fixed nor improved upon, whereas there's evidence that the "critique club" are posting images, getting tips on what's wrong, then fixing 'em. in the past, if somebody said there was something wrong with an image posted by the "ooohs and aahhs group", the response would sometimes be an attempt to form a lynch mob thread in this forum, to silence the critic. I haven't seen that with the "critique club" yet, and I hope it never happens.

It seems really rude to intentionally disrupt a serious discussion with multiple posts of cat pictures or broken beer bottles, or anything else not pertinent to the discussion.

Sorry to hear that you two feel that way.

Thread drift is a factor of forum life. We don't intend to rule the forums with a rod of iron, removing any OT posts. (That was tried back in 2003 and went down like the proverbial lead balloon, killing any feeling of community spirit and engendering huge resentment.)

We try to strike a balance here and I'd like to think that we achieve it probably 95% of the time. At least, the majority seem to think so ;-)

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Beryld:

Quote - I don't know which is worse now. The ooo's groups or the fanatic Critique group that is bragging about it.

 

Considering I just spend a couple of hours commenting, I am puzzled why you think this.  The vast majority of the comments I've seen that have come out of this effort are anything but ooh/ahhs.  I don't suppose you've spent any time looking at these yourself, or you might have a different perception.

The perturbation of the Holy, Most Sacred Art Charts is only in the "most favorited" category, and since that's a running average, it can be expected to go back to normal in a week or two.  I think your comments regarding this effort are nasty, unfounded and unreasonable, and I'm disappointed you're being this negative about what is - at least so far - an honest and constructive effort, with little if any mutal back-patting.

My Freebies

There's one thing that this critique group business is doing for me personally.

I pay more attention when looking at an image. What is good, what could improve. I learn from the critiques of others, not only from the critiques on my own images, but especially on those of others. I learn to look better at my own work, I learn to identify the things that are not right, and while knowing what is wrong is quite different from knowing how to fix it, it's an important step on the way to better quality images.

It wouldn't surprise me if the same goes for other members of this "cabal". Well, if it enables us to make better images, wha'ts to complain? Disruption of the Art Charts my foot!.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery   My freestuff

Quote - It seems really rude to intentionally disrupt a serious discussion with multiple posts of cat pictures or broken beer bottles, or anything else not pertinent to the discussion.

Sorry to hear that you two feel that way.

Thread drift is a factor of forum life. We don't intend to rule the forums with a rod of iron, removing any OT posts. (That was tried back in 2003 and went down like the proverbial lead balloon, killing any feeling of community spirit and engendering huge resentment.)

We try to strike a balance here and I'd like to think that we achieve it probably 95% of the time. At least, the majority seem to think so ;-)

 

There's a big diffence between the thread drift of a thread that's winding down and the intentional disruption of an active thread...and I think you know that. This was definately not a case of thread drift. Normally, when a thread drifts, a member that is an active participant starts the drift after the discussion wanes. In this case someone, who was not a participant attempted to disrupt the thread and force it to drift while the discussion was still going. That should be discouraged...and in fact is likely a TOS violation.

From the TOS:

"Destructive commentary/communications made with the intent to disrupt or attack (Trolling)."

This sort of behavior should be discouraged because it is disruptive and it discourages the free exchange of ideas and opinions. It's childish, immature behavior which does not belong in the middle of a serious discussion. You, as a Moderator should discourage such disruptions instead of participating in them. I realize you think it's cute and harmless...but put yourself in the shoes of people that are interested in this topic. Imagine yourself trying to have an adult conversation in a group of adults and a bunch of kids jump in between you and start shouting and making noise and shoving pictures of cats in your face and...and you'll have a better sense of the impact. I bet all those kids would be getting a "time out" at the very least.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

Thank you for sharing your opinion.

Thread drift is not a TOS violation.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Quote - Thank you for sharing your opinion.

Thread drift is not a TOS violation.

 

That would be the case if this in fact, was a case of thread drift...but that does not appear to be the case...and it amazes me that you cannot see that.

The other concern you should have is who holds the copyright to the images that are being posted? Certainly, "fair use" would definately not apply to the way they are being used here. I am under the impression Renderosity does not allow the posting of copyrighted images unless the poster has permission from the copyright holder.

Thanks for your time.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

What a distressing and unfortunate segue into the land of Who-Gives-A-Shit.  :(

My Freebies

Hi again T_H!

That would be the case if this in fact, was a case of thread drift...but that does not appear to be the case...and it amazes me that you cannot see that.

I guess that makes two of us in the land of amazement today!

*The other concern you should have is who holds the copyright to the images that are being posted?...

*It is up to a copyright holder to uphold their rights.  It is important that we don't allow just anyone to say "hey, that's copyright" without them providing any proof.

We do not have the time to get deeply involved with vague, unfounded copyright claims.  If the person complaining can be specific on which image was in violation and show where it was copyrighted to another person, we will remove the image(s) in question.  However, a vague statement that someone "might" be using something that isn't theirs is time consuming and in vain. 

Thanks!

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"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

The cat pictures don't bother me. A little thread drift is normal, we all do it, including myself. I only thought it was wrong to to completely over take the thread that way. I don't want anyone to think that I think threads need to be ruled. I don't believe in that kind of stuff. I only mentioned it due to courtesy to the thread but it is obviously community courtesy that does not apply here.

pjz99 once again you have mis-understood my meaning and flamed me. I pointed out what could happen and it did. You and others said I was being negative and it would not happen. It has happened and you still want to flame me for pointing that out. Now I read in the other thread some of you bragging about how you have changed things. You say it is only temporary, maybe but it still happened. You keep trying to convince everyone that I'm defending these stupid charts with your comments. I'm not.

Learning something is a good thing. Nothing wrong with that. Saying that it does not matter what effect it has in the name of the group is not cool.

If we could just get rid of the damn art charts to begin with there would not be any need for these threads.

Beryl, you've obviously made up your mind, for whatever reason, that the Critique Group is a Bad Thing. That's fine, you're entitled to hold any belief that you wish.

You also seem convinced that anybody who disagrees with you is "flaming" you. So I'll leave you in peace and not respond to any more of your assertions.

You might want to check SpamCop's definition of "Flaming"...

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"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Quote - What a distressing and unfortunate segue into the land of Who-Gives-A-Shit.  :(

 

Hehehehehehe....most excellent. Concise and accurate.
I enjoyed Karen's cat pictures, and offer my thanks to her for posting them. If one makes the effort to read back through this entire thread, it's very obvious that she was responding with a bit of appreciated humor to another member's equally funny reference to the topic of content censorship, which certainly has an impact on the issue under discussion here.

Beryld

Quote - pjz99 once again you have mis-understood my meaning and flamed me. I pointed out what could happen and it did. You and others said I was being negative and it would not happen. It has happened and you still want to flame me for pointing that out. Now I read in the other thread some of you bragging about how you have changed things. You say it is only temporary, maybe but it still happened. You keep trying to convince everyone that I'm defending these stupid charts with your comments. I'm not.

 

You have greatly misunderstood me.  I never flamed and never bragged.  I'm unable to converse with you if you're so dead set on looking for the absolute worst in anything that happens and anything that is said to you.  Good luck in life.

My Freebies

oops! now the thread has drifted from critiques and cat pix to personal disputes. I have a sinking feeling that it's gonna get locked. :crying:

Hey I personally thought the cat pics were great and a perfect way to lighten the mood of what would have become a very dark and depressing thread... It was in no way a means of pushing the topic off or disrupting the conversation, just a way to remind others that this is a community and emotions do play a part so its good to have a laugh on occasion.

On the note of the pics being a copyright issue... I would only be concerned if they chose to upload it to their personal gallery and claim it as their own. Since no one has done that then it isn't an issue.

EDIT On a side note, considering what the thread was started for was more critique in the galleries and the topic has now actually moved to a sticky, I would have to assume that this particular thread isn't necessary anymore, right?

Just my two cents!

Quote - On the note of the pics being a copyright issue... I would only be concerned if they chose to upload it to their personal gallery and claim it as their own. Since no one has done that then it isn't an issue.

Then I guess you won't mind if people grab the images from your gallery and post them where ever they choose without giving you credit...as long as they don't claim it as their own.

 beryld no one has been trying to attack you...pjz99 may have made some irreverent and perhaps rude comments, but no attacks.

Karen, I'll say this for you...you've certainly learned to dance around and diminish an issue with the best of them. Kudo's for mastering that skill. Since I was the one that started this thread...please lock it. Everything that can be said has been...no point in encouraging the dead horse pictures to start appearing.

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

the kittie pix are probly copyright violations (I ain't a lawyer) but they allow 'em here, likely because to disallow 'em would seem heavy-handed.

I was actually interested in and reading this thread until the cat pictures appeared and once again a thread goes astray. I don't understand why some folks feel the need to post them in a thread where they haven't offered a single comment beforehand in regards to what's being discussed. It is childish. If you had no interest in what was being discussed then move on. I have nothing against cats, owning two of them myself, but I am pretty tired of seeing them needlessly in a serious discussion. I came back today to see if the thread had gotten back on topic but I see it's gone the way of many others.

Sorry, tainted-heart, the topic was a good one while it lasted.

FlyByNight

T-heart. For someone who has only posted 18 images in four years, I would think you would concentrate on posting rather than worrying about people "sucking up" since no one can comment on your work - or others - if you do not post work for people to comment on.

The end:

I never said or implied the Critique goup was a bad thing. I have repeatedly said the idea was a good thing. The only the only part I found tainted is the fact that many complained how the populars contoled the charts, now your group is and  some of you keep telling me there is nothing wrong with that. To me that is wrong. 

I'm sorry my opinion is not the same as yours and you think that I'm only looking for the bad, which was not my intent.

After that last posted image, yes I agree this thread should be locked and you might want to do something about that last pic.

Quote - T-heart. For someone who has only posted 18 images in four years, I would think you would concentrate on posting rather than worrying about people "sucking up" since no one can comment on your work - or others - if you do not post work for people to comment on.

 

Considering the fact that the current 18 images in my gallery were posted in the past year and you do not have any images posted, i'd say you should take your own comment to heart and concentrate on posting rather than worrying what I am or am not doing.

18 images are more than enough for people to comment on at the moment. Unlike some here, I do have a life that does not involve Renderosity or constantly posting images here...nor do I require an ocean of fans to boost my ego or validate me or my work!

It's all fun and games...
Until the flying monkeys attack!!! 

I am locking this thread per a request from the original thread starter.