Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Since Intel are big proponents of the whole DRM thing and Apple are already doing something similar in iTunes, Mac users aren't exactly safe either. They may even be more at risk, since they generally care much less about the technicalities of their OS.

Either way, you can bet that the film/music conglomerates will not let any of us, Mac or PC, get away with freedom for very long.

Well, hate to say it, but I LOVE Vista. Runs faster on this machine than XP ever did, has never crashed. And erm... what DRM? I do the same things on Vista that I did on XP, rip cds to mp3, rip DVD to iPod. Whats the problem? The only issue I have is that my scanner doesn't work, but that's Canon's problem, not Vistas. Of course, I switched off that annoying UAC rubbish.

I booted into XP the other day, and it was like going from XP into Windows 3.1 or something. Horrible.

UAC?

---Wolff On The Prowl---

yeah, the User Account Control. Thats the little demon that lives inside Vista, and pops up asking "are you sure??" when you try to... do almost anything, really. Its intended to stop Mr & Mrs Stupid from running virus programs they've downloaded or deleting their system files. In practice, it pops up constantly... try to move a photoshop file from one hard-drive to another. "Are you sure you want to move that file?". erm.. yeah, I just moved it didn't I?

The UAC is a complete annoyance for 50% of users. I'd leave it on for your ageing grandmother or five-year old child, but for everyone else I say switch it off. (So do half the people at Microsoft too - well, the half that haven't gone back to XP anyhow lol). Point is we didn't have it on W3.1, W95, W98, WME, W2000, WXP - so why do we need it now? Are people getting stupider? Or are Microsoft getting nannier? (Is that even a word?)

Thanks for the explanation that totally clears one issue up. Hope folks read this thread so they can go and turn off that horrible thing! :blink:

---Wolff On The Prowl---

Are you sure? Are you really sure? Are you positively, absolutely, really sure?...

Schmucks.

I guess this is better than the old Visual Studio days where removing source files from a project also meant that (unbeknownst to you) you also wanted to delete the source files from the harddrive permanently! Never let someone else make decisions for you! Demand control - not from MS or RIAA - but for yourself.

Cue subliminal message... 1984

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I'm not too hot on Vista either. Tried RC1, deleted it immediately.

If the choice is between Vista and nothing when buying a new PC, I'd choose nothing, and buy a WinXP or WinXP 64bit OEM version separately.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

Another reason to stay away from Vista. How annoying is that or do they really think people are that dumb??? I hate popups of any kind. I still wouldn't trust it with a ten foot pole. Ive used computers for over ten years I think I know my way around them by now without MS asking me if I want to do something or not on my own machine.

Pretty bad when you can't even play your own audio and video that you bought... but that driver revocation is what blows my mind :scared:

Some bad decisions made by MS, and I have a feeling its going to come back and bite them in the butt..people just aren't going to sit still for that sort of thing

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

if you don't like the pop-ups, switch them off. if you're not smart enough to figure out how to turn off UAC, then you need it ;)

(by YOU, I don't mean YOU, I mean people in general).

seems to me that half the problems people are having with Vista is a) they're basing their opinion on a beta they tried or b) their machines are incompatible. Even new machines with a "Vista Ready!" sticker doesn't mean it will run Vista properly, just that it can run the basic basic version (and that is currently the subject of a law suit). Saying that, I don't have the latest dual core, 1 gig gfx card, 8 gig ram machine. I'm using a five year old Pentium IV, with one gig of ram, and an old Radeon 9550 gfx card. Vista flies.

I'm one of the only people on the planet who actually loves Vista, to the point of being evangelical about it. MS should be paying me or something lol. All I'm saying is don't believe the anti-hype. Seems people are ready to jump on Vista for every little thing... "Vista has drm? Damn, I KNEW there was a reason I didn't like it". Except - what DRM? On what?

It's still no OSX, but its the best OS Microsoft have released (and I was a big Windows2000 fan, but this is better).

I'll shut up now and go back to making pictures :)

My systems are definitely Vista capable. Athlon64 3500+/4 GB RAM/GeForce7900GS and Athlon64x2 4400+/4 GB RAM/GeForce 7800GTX.
It's not that Vista doesn't work on those systems - it works. But it's far too "Mac-like" IMO. Too many visual gadgets, and too much searching for options that I can find blindly on XP/2000, such as pagefile settings, performance tuning options and the like.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/02/drm_in_windows.html

When I first read about "Project Longhorn," I predicted that when MS customers discovered the truth, they would revolt.

*Vista has drm? Damn, I KNEW there was a reason I didn't like it". Except - what DRM? On what?

If nothing, an interesting read (including long list of comments).

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I'm with iggy23 here - I have been using Vista since mid Feb and sorry, but I have to say - I LOVE it!!!

I love the way it looks, it is fast and I haven't had any problems with it. All my programs, including Poser 7, PSP-XI and Vue 6 run fine and perform really well.

There are issues with it - especially with drivers. Some of my older programs are not compatible with Vista so I will have to wait patiently for a new version or patch to resolve this. (I used XP right from day one too and there were issues with it when it was first released but now most people seem to be happy with XP).

The UAC is very annoying, but it can be turned off - it is up to the user. However, rightly or wrongly, this is a major part of the security for Vista. We always complained because earlier Windows weren't secure, now we have security measures in place and we are complaining...

I haven't had any issues with DRM either - but of course if I had, I guess I would be upset about it.

So, the "I Love Vista" people are few and far between, but I am really happy with it. I use XP at work still and it is so flat and dull in comparison.

I also knew people who swore by Windows ME - but you couldn't torture me into using it. The beta couldn't even install on my computer - later, the release installed and then proceeded to crash relentlessly (BOS or worse). That's when I fell in love with Windows NT. Never went back (NT 3.5, 4.0, 2000 Pro, XP Pro, XP Pro x64). If I had a real need for Server, I'd go with it as it is even more secure/stable/powerful. For basic users, the hobbled versions might suffice, but you want anything really to work you need a real OS. Vista sounds like, for the majority (including Microsoft employees?) to be not-ready-for-prime-time. And it's rather funny from my perspective - MS has been working on this thing forever - just think "Boston's third album". ;P

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

and some of us are still on Win 2k...;) No worries so far...

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Boston, in the news the other day, found the guy dead. Not going to look for his name in my old albums but don't expect a Boston comeback.

If they toast the DRM, I'm sure Vista would sell much better. I know I would feel better about it.

Quote - *Vista has drm? Damn, I KNEW there was a reason I didn't like it". Except - what DRM? On what?

http://www.schneier.com/blog/archives/2007/02/drm_in_windows.html

If nothing, an interesting read (including long list of comments).

DRM in HD-DVD and blu-ray? Well.. it'll be a few years before I buy one of those players, and a video card to play them, and a big plasma to play them, and then buy the disks...

Its like saying the audio drivers for VST instruments use a protected pathway that only neural-net audio drivers can bypass... like... huh? and how does that affect me using Poser? Does it encrypt my Photoshop files? Does it require a key so I can load shaders into C4D? Do my word documents need clearance with the FBI before I can email them? DRM in Bluray is irrelevant to me. Certainly no reason for me to stop using a fantastic OS. And like I said, if I could afford to go down the HD route, I wouldnt be using a Windows machine I made out of spare parts anyhow.. I'd have an 8-Core Powermac ;)

Oh I love reading these - lets all jump on the bandwagon...jeeez!

Well, firstly, I have no constant pop-ups while testing Vista...but then again, I suppose that's because I've set the right permissions for my user account.
DRM - oh well boys and girls, aren't you in for a shock. DRM will be incorporated into all pre-recorded media eventually, so it won't matter if your using Windows, OSX or Linux - to view the content you will have to have HDCP support within your hardware...else you'll not be viewing anything.

As already mentioned, Apple also have a strict DRM policy within iTunes and the iPod, so don't think it's a Microsoft only thing.

I'm having to test Vista for deployment to 600+ graphic workstations, so I have to be sure it will work or not or my head is on the block...and so far, I have seen nothing in Vista that causes me great concern...well nothing that can't be overcome or was any worse than what I saw in XP or 2000.

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

As I said above, I do like using Vista, of course I am testing it and know how to work around issues, but many people will and have jumped into Vista without any background knowledge and are getting (they feel) burned. Many just get it because it is new, or just got a new pc and because of lack of knowledge think they have been dupped.

But as stated by iggy and rocco_9, It is not as bad as it is getting bad comments by users whom are in unfamilar grounds.

Software is evolving as well with it's own protection and users will begin to see these popups (if you want to call them this) and it will also cause people to stir.

Some new software won't even run now without registering a pc key. There has been so much piracy around, it will only help prevent the waraz around the PC and Mac world. I know so many people that still steal software, it amazes me that they just don't dig down and pay out for their own software.

I stand on my opinion and tests, it will evolve and sooner then later, you will see only Vista around the pc arena and others will eventually like it.

You still see others complaining about XP, but again it has to do with not knowing the basics of pc's. Sharen

I still plan to get a Mac. Ive always wanted to get away MS period. Of course they're gonna be users who love and will defend Vista & MS me, on the other hand, is not going to take any chances nor do I really want it. I make my own media files. I dont do itunes so that wouldn't worry me at all. I dont listen to the top 40 nor do I listen to music on computer unless it's a file I made with a video.

I dont like having the latest MS OS shoved down my throat because MS says you have to get the newest version. Blah. I still say they have sneaky copyright protection in their OS's. I've already read far too many articles written by techs on it to not believe it.

All the protection in the world isn't going to prevent a hacker from hacking into their OS. You are fooling yourself if you believe that a hacker can't crack MS products in a day. I dont care what childish schemes they install, it won't work. It's been proven, time and again a hacker will out beat MS on the sameday something is released.

(mho)

Umm, Sharon? Keep an eye on your cpu utilitation with a 3rd party app; the Vista DRM scheme has been benchmarked as eating 20% of your CPU power. I'm actually typing this from a laptop I just bought with Vista Home Premium on it (I needed a portable computer, and this way I do not have to sacrifice one of my renderboxes on the altar of needing to keep up). Losing one fifth of your processor power in an unneeded routine is never a good thing. On the other hand, I specifically got the laptop with Vista to evaluate it myself, so......

Quote - Are people getting stupider? Or are Microsoft getting nannier? (Is that even a word?)

Not stupider, just becoming common sense ignorant. We are moving to a race of individuals that wants everything done for them without the individual having to think about it. The more we depend on man made technology and think how perfect and infoulable it is because man made it the more and more we lose the ability of using common sense.

I read an article, and I believe it was also on ABC world news, about the new technology going into cars. Things like flashing lamps, bells and horns to tell the driver if he is driving too fast and catching up to the car in front, to tell the driver he/she is drifting into another lane, to tell the driver that the light is red, etc. If people are not paying attention to traffic signs and signals now what make the car manufacturers think they will listen to bells and whistles?

If you're that stupid that you can't pay attention and need flashing lights and audible sounds in the operation of a 2500 pound weapon that can kill you ( 50,000 Americans die per yr in senseless auto related deaths) or others then maybe you shouldn't be driving. To me this does nothing more than build a false sense of security and remove personal responsibility. Why use common sense when you have all those pretty lights and bells doing it for you? And if you are in an accident then you can just say you didn't hear the warnings. It's all rubbish the more so-called technically advanced we become the more incredibly ignorant we become.

Same can be said about this. Why be aware or educate yourself with basic computer functions, web surfing, virus and other nasties when you can have a software do it for you? Why be responsible? Is this not the teaching of the future? It's not my fault it's somebody else.

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Hmmmm, well I certainly wouldn't consider myself a MS fan...in fact I cut my teeth and and pay some of my bills working under a Linux enviroment and actually have an intel Mac dual booting Microsoft, Apple and Linux OS's.

I just see an awful lot of miss-information spread about about Vista, as well as Linux and OSX. Vista isn't perfect, just like OSX or Linux. DRM may be a pain, but don't choose to ignore the fact that you will see it in all OS's sooner rather than later, or ignore the fact that other OS's already have it incorporated to certain degree!

I see so many people complain about Vista - well, you have a choice to use it. Use OSX or Linux. And for those who say, "my app isn't supported by it" - well, I say, use an app that is supported by it. There are plenty of graphics apps that support Linux or OSX, so choice shouldn't be a problem.
I really can't see what all the complaining is about...it's not like you have a gun to your head to use it.

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

OK, some people like Vista and some don't. I don't see any need for Vista as long as XP fulfills my needs. The new Vista user interface looks cool, but it also costs a lot of performance. The lack of Open GL support is annoying and leads to a lot of troubles on some PC configurations with Poser7 and other application that use Open GL. Nvidia seems to have implemented Open GL in their graphic card drivers to compensate that.

If you have installed Vista on your PC and it works you're lucky. A lot of people have problems with Vista for various reasons. Often due to a hardware configuration that is only partially useful with Vista or instable drivers.

I installed XP64 Pro on my new PC and I'm very happy with it. I didn't find arguments for myself to upgrade to Vista. People who prefer Vista over XP may do this because of the better user interface. I didn't see other improvments yet, except higher memory and CPU consumption and lack of drivers. Microsoft has still a lot to do to make Vista really superior to XP. On the other hand, Microsoft needed SR2 to make XP superior to Win2k.

So let's wait one or two years...

Actually, OpenGL support has always been supplied by the graphics card manufacturers. Not only for Vista, for all versions of Windows. And Linux. And OSX. Microsoft only provides OpenGL 1.1 emulation for all their OSes, if you want real OpenGL support, you have to turn to the graphics card manufacturers.

There's a lot I do not like about Vista. But the lack of OpenGL support is not primarily Microsoft's fault.

By the way, when it comes to DRM, Apple has done its share too, and is now facing lawsuits over their policies considering iTunes and the iPod...

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

you know, its funny. Not funny ha-ha, but funny strange. Vista was released, and it was almost as if all the hardware and software manufacturers were getting it the same time as we, the public. Thus your printer probably won't work, cos XXX haven't written a Vista driver yet. Your scanner probably won't work, cos XXX haven't written a Vista driver for it yet. Your.... get the picture? I blame poor planning for this one - MS should have finished the OS, then released it to every hardware and software company they possibly could. Then sat on it for three months... and THEN released it to the public. But nooooo, they wanted it in the stores the day after new years, whatever the cost. Well, the cost is that everyone is complaining that their hardware/software is incompatible with Vista. And that Vista doesn't go OpenGL. And that Vista crashes their RAID. And don't get me started on Vista64...

OpenGL is there on Vista.. trouble is, especially with ATI, they took the new OS as a chance to re-write their catalyst drivers from scratch. So when Vista was released, the Vista version of Catalyst had... what could be described as alpha versions of OpenGL. Its getting better, we're now on Catalyst 7.3 and OpenGL works fine in Poser, DazStudio, Cinema4D, Second Life.. I'm not sure what the situation is with Nvidia, I think they are slightly ahead of ATI as far as their OpenGL goes, but not by much.

Nevermind.. by the time VistaSR1 is released at Xmas I'm sure everyone will just have about caught up :)

(please don't take my OpenGL spiel as gospel - thats just how I understand the situation to be, I could be wrong)

Quote - And for those who say, "my app isn't supported by it" - well, I say, use an app that is supported by it. There are plenty of graphics apps that support Linux or OSX, so choice shouldn't be a problem.
I really can't see what all the complaining is about...it's not like you have a gun to your head to use it.

I disagree. Microsoft's operating systems completely dominate the pc format market. The corporation is a monopoly that has been convicted of predatory business practices. That is not my opinion, but that of the United States federal courts. The fact that they have been able to thumb their noses at the courts' explicit order to make Internet Explorer deletable from their operating systems by finally allowing the installation of other browsers is remarkable, and clearly demonstrates the willingness of my country's authorities to ignore the law whenever they choose.
Claiming that programs capable of running under Linux is offer a viable alternative is not a valid point. Each application has unique properties that make it an irreplaceable asset for individual users. Besides, Microsoft does all it can to discourage developers from porting titles by punishing "violators" with sanctions. Withholding SDK's or delaying their distribution is a a common tactic. Then there's the complex matter of accessing or using proprietary code without "permission." In other words, you serve only Microsoft, or you'll find yourself going broke from horribly extended development times for Windows apps, or winding up in court.
My only reason for submitting the original post in this thread was out of concern for the users here. The majority of us are working people who have to carefully consider most of the purchases we make. We don't have unlimited financial resources. Vista is the most expensive public sector operating system MS has ever released, and it established fact, not opinion, that it is incapable of dependably running a great many popular programs we all use, and have invested substantial sums of money in. If Vista serves the needs of a business, fine.If not, the cost of the software is tax deductible. I couldn't care less.
Vista seems to me to be the perfect avatar of our times. We live in an age of vanishing freedoms and diminishing choices. My government has practically abandoned its constitution in the name of security. Our brothers and sisters in the UK can't walk across a street without being spied upon by surveillance cameras. Some British private schools ( what we refer to as public schools in the U.S ) have announced their intention to stop teaching anything concerning the Holocaust because the parents of some Muslim students may find it offensive. My God.
And now we have put up with Vista. Installing it on your system is like having a three hundred pound cop come bursting through your door and jumping astride your back. Once comfortably settled in, he proceeds to criticize and interfere with everything you do. Sure, you can gag the thug, but he's not going anywhere. He'll just continue his spying in silence until he decides to fetch you a good whack upside the head.
I don't need to pay for that service. My wife does it for free, and she's a lot cuter than Bill Gates.

Yea, but Iggy, weren't most of the hardware manufacturers given copies and plenty of heads up to get those new drivers ready and out the door at release time? From what I've read around the net leading up to Vista's release this seemed to be the case. So then some blame needs to be put upon those companies that fell short!!

As for switching to a new OS, XP, as I've stated is my fav and will remain for the time being. I'm not closed to Vista but I'm a bit shocked by all that I've read, esp here in this forum. I'm sure by SR1 things will be MUCH better and then I'll think about it again..

Despite the resources used to power Vista I do like all the cool interface stuff. I will admit that!!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

It's already been mentioned about the false information concerning OpenGL support in Vista, so I'll not repeat what has already been said. Just another false rumour concerning Vista...one of many.

As for it not being true about apps not being supported in other OS's - well, this is a Poser forum and I do believe Poser is supported in OSX.
Want modelling in OSX - Modo, Maya, Blender, C4D etc, etc
Want scene creation in OSX - Vue, Bryce and Terragen etc, etc.
Want modelling in Linux - C4D, Maya, Blender etc, etc
Want scene modelling in Linux - hey, it's lacking, but I bet 90% of people who use Vue or Bryce wouldn't be interested in Linux anyway.

I think there's is plenty of choice and the facts speak for themselves...and I've not mentioned half of the 3D and 2D apps available on multiple platforms.

As I say, nobody is making people choose to use windows, the hardware and software is there for people to use if they wish to change...the only problem is that people find it easier to find fault in something than actually get off their arses and change what they find bad. Nobody has to put up with Vista...it's your choice.

If you have to buy a new PC with Vista on and don't like Vista, then install Linux. Don't like Linux, well buy a Mac - you can then put on it whatever you like.

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

That's the rub, Cheers. Sooner or later we won't have a choice if we prefer pc's over the more expensive Macs. The SDK issue is not a figment of my imagination. Developers will either adopt Vista protocols and standards, or MS will not co-operate in facilitating production, thereby vastly increasing costs. So much for choice.
Complaining about the obvious and well documented intentional hobbling of an operating system the user pays hard earned money for is not bitching by lazy layabouts. It is a legitimate complaint against an inexcusable business practice that should be punished in the marketplace. The article I referred to earlier refutes much of what you're claiming with detailed, documented fact. My take on this issue seems to be shared by almost every professional programmer and developer I've encountered.
As for OpenGL, when thousands of users repeatedly encounter a Windows generated shutdown error message with the same programs on different machines, and when following the option for a detailed technical report reveals a failure of an OpenGL call, I think the point is obvious.
I hope you will not take my contrary position as a personal attack. We simply disagree.

Steve Jobs is on the case to get rid of DRM. iTunes has to have DRM because the Record Companies instist on it. There's nothing Apple can do about it other than try to convince the Record Companies to drop DRM. The good news is, This week EMI came around. The new DRM-free music will cost $1.50, instead of $.99. --- http://macdailynews.com/index.php/weblog/comments/13181/ Apples DRM-free EMI deal a master stroke that should cement Apples dominance Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 10:11 AM EDT "Apple's deal to put the EMI music catalog on its iTunes store without antipiracy software is a master stroke that should cement Apple's dominance -- and could lead the change in how most consumers get their music," Priya Ganapati reports for TheStreet.com. Ganapati reports, "The lack of restrictions and the higher-quality sound could potentially make iTunes the clear choice for music distribution, as users get rid of the intermediary step of buying CDs from retailers and 'ripping' tunes onto their iPod." MacDailyNews Take: Users were already eschewing the practice of buying CDs and ripping them via iTunes and the iTunes Store was already the clear choice for legal online music distribution before yesterday. Apple's DRM-free, higher quality deal with EMI (and the others sure to follow) will only accelerate what was already taking place. Ganapati continues, "By opening up the iTunes system, Apple has turned itself into the most important link in the music distribution business and has turned up the heat on subscription-based digital music rivals... Apple expects about half of the 5 million songs currently on iTunes to be offered DRM-free by the end of the year." MacDailyNews Take: Like Apple needed to turn up the heat. The subscription outfits were already baking to a crisp in a blast furnace simply because they are trying (and failing) to offer something designed mainly to extract recurring revenue, not to fulfill consumer's desires. People want to own music, not rent it. Ganapati continues, "For Apple, this move could signal the next evolutionary change in the iPod/iTunes empire." Full article here. http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/newsanalysis/techstockupdate/10348107.html --- bB

I was a beta tester on Vista and now have Vista ultimate and have never had a problem till recently see my earlier thread 'Seriously...' or so I thought till this morning. Sure Vista gets your ok before it does something but can turn those off, I don't simply because I have deleted too many files over the years by accident. Vista is more stable than XP, and the big problem is that 3rd party companies didn't upgrade their own software, even when they knew that Vista was on the way. Example, the reason I had to buy a new DVD burner was because the old one which still worked fine, didn't work with vista. The software actually only went up to win98 not even ME or 2000, much less XP. I got it to work by finding a 3rd party driver file that worked under XP. Samething with my flatbed scanner, although it's software went up through win me. This had gotten me wondering just how many problems people have with windows is actually due to some other software that hasn't been upgraded since win 95. It still might work under win me, 2000, but by the time you get to XP, problems are starting to crop up. Then you start looking at Window since it is the operating system, not a software problem from you scanner, printer or what have you. I am sure that the people who know software and hardware can usually fix these kind of problems with no effort. But the rest of us, usually don't thing about the 3rd party software that sits on our computer. I know that I usually don't. It's always something to with Windows.

Here's what happened this morning...

This morning, I got the directions on how to remove the software from a DVD Burner I had bought and the software wouldn't load under Windows Vista. The burner was made by Sony and the software is made by NERO. The cleanup program supplied by NERO removed the earlier version of the software and loaded the new software and it works under vista. Here's the whoops. After it cleaned the earlier verison of NERO that didn't work, I checked my email and guess what! everything was there. All the stuff that I thought I had lost was sitting where it should be including all my documents and everything. So here's the question, Did Vista knock everything like I assumed or was it the NERO software? I got the update for Vista on the sameday that I got the Burner. The Nero Software hung up and wouldn't finish loading. That night I got the update for Vista rebooted the computer the next morning. So was the screwed version of NERO or Vista that caused the problem.....
Inquiring minds want to know.....

Earlier this weeked I posted a message warning about Vista and the upgrade that I had thought had destroyed, erased or whatever a bunch of my files. But when I got NERO straighted out, all and I mean all of my stuff was suddenly back. The Problem it seems was with NERO not Vista...

Cinema 4D can only be run on Linux through an emulator!

There is a Production bundle that runs natively on Linux, specifically for STUDIOS and not for individual consumers - and, iirc, it costs a bundle as well. It has a service contract and can only be purchased upon request. I don't know the cost, but lets just say $10000-$20000 isn't a bad guesstimate. So, no, there really isn't a Linux option - unless you're a rich guy with a studio making a few $100K/yr.

Windows C4D 6.3-10.1
MacOS C4D 6.3-10.1

And I'm a Cinema 4D plugin developer - so I know these things... ;P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cinema_4D

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Oh no Mogwa, certainly not taken personally, but as a good debate ;0)

As for the OpenGL, well, is that Vista or poorly implemented drivers from the card manufacturer? It's easy to blame Vista, but it is up to the drivers to properly integrate with the OS they have been developed for. The machines we use are mainly used for 3D (Maya, Max and ZBrush amongst others) and I have found OpenGL to run sweet and I must have put in at least 200 hrs of testing so far. As I say, my job depends on me making a wise decision and so far out of 10 test machines things are looking good to roll out Vista this Christmas (the earliest time we can consider a change for logistic reasons).
Hey, if it was down to me I would run everything on Linux (it is what I learnt my shader programming on), but we are stuck with Max, so in this case I have to go with the flow.

As long as our programs run well on Vista, it is all I'm worried about.

As for the resources Vista takes up..well, I'm afraid a graphical interface and indexing activated by default doesn't come without cost...but then again when XP was released the realistic chance of buying a workstation with 24GHz of processing power was pie in the sky as well.

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

I know C4D for Linux is for studio use only...I've used it ;0) The nature of this argument isn't concerned with cost..it was about the restrictions associated with Vista.
I argued that if you feel that restricted then you had the option to change without much hassle.

Lets face it, money will always be an argument for getting something...I'm sure if it wasn't we would all be buying a 3Ghz 8 core MacPro.

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

After reading the article that Mogwa originally linked to, I can see why there is Panic in Detroit.

Most users are slovenly naive - you give them stereo speakers, a 17" monitor, and a USB port and they're in heaven. But there are also a lot of 'power users' - not just geeky technophiles - but those who do more than surf for porn and play video games. Those who use their computers for business (and not just the Mac-PC pie chart, spreadsheet fallacy).

As I'm reading this article, more and more of my computer seems to be problematic for Vista. I'm one of those people who has an optical out for my audio (as well as in and MIDI and so on) - because I'm a musician and like music and have a 500W 5.1 surround|DTS system attached to the computer though it. I may also be someone who will be getting into Blu-Ray/HD-DVD at some point for either larger archival storage or AV production. And I have video input/output for video capture/transfer and video testing.

There's the bugger. This new protection seems to be aimed directly at people like me (and studios) who use computers for doing all sorts of Audio-Video-CG work. Basically, they sound like they want to cut off the rest of the body in spite of the bad left hand (the pirates et al).

I'll wait for the class-action lawsuits to be decided... :)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Right, but saying to someone with C4D base ($700) on Windows that, hey, you can switch to Linux and still use it there is slightly disingenuous. Yeah, if you don't mind the service contract, the personal request to purchase, and the 10-20 times cost. That is so unpalatable, I'd move to Vista! ;D

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Well, that is my point kuroyume - it is easy to complain about something, but takes a little more effort to move to something else. If I was as upset about something, as some people seem to be with Vista, then I would just move to something else. The choice is there for people to make...nobody is holding a gun to any persons head and saying "You will obey the law, you will use Vista!".

I can't see much wrong with Vista (and I say this keeping one eye on what many of the media companies are insisting on for DRM). Make no bones about it, OSX and Linux will have to incorporate a Windows style of DRM if they want to allow their users a full multi-media experience in the future.
Of course the user could rebel, but companies such as Sony etc are fully aware that over time users will get use to it. I also find it hard to figure out how artists here can get up in arms concerning their own rights to protect their work (and rightly so), yet be up in arms when DRM is employed to protect another artists rights (be it a band, film company or whatever). Smells of double standards to me. It's like one of us putting a copyright watermark across our image and then a viewer complain about, how dare we ruin their enjoyment.

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

No problem 'moving' to MacOSX for me. :) Of course, if I were using Max or AutoCAD (those damnable AutoDesk idiots), then I'd have no choice but Boot Camp (which doesn't relegate the OS issues, does it?).

It's just one of those software things. OSs usually run on various hardware configurations. Windows on any Intel system, MacOS on just about any Motorola or Intel system, Linux on anything. Software developers have to pander to the customer base and write not only for hardware (drivers etc) but to the OS - very few commercial applications using platform-dependent virtual machines (Java, Python, etc.) to have 'automagic' software across OSs. If there are 10 million Windows customers and 2 Mac customers, there is very little (if any) incentive to port to MacOS (or maintain the port as vigorously). And some stubbornly refuse in their long history (see AutoDesk above) to even consider other OSs.

The problem with Linux has nothing to do with its versatility and available software and solutions (either alternative or direct) but that it is not a force to be pandered with (neither is AmigaOS, BeOS, MacOS, and several other popular but marginal OSs out there). If software (and that includes drivers and plugins) developers could be depended upon to continue support for a marginal OS, then it would make the 'switch' more worthwhile. Or if the OS were to gain popularity. MacOS is gaining slightly - still not quite enough to tilt some companies over to it.

There is the potential (and this phallanx maneuver has been tried several times in the past) that disgust with Windows Vista could swell the ranks of Linux users. But unless MS really flubs up here (and they aren't quite that stupid (we wish)), the swelling will be insignificant for the desired corporate attention to tilt much.

One thing that I do like very much about Cinema 4D is that Maxon has always (after moving from Amiga) supported both Windows and MacOS. Much the same can be said of Poser and Poser's owner-of-the-month (MetaCreations, Curious Labs, e-Frontier). MS software requires an emulator or an alternative. In my case, as a developer, I can't see the benefit of doing development in one or not having a real system on which to build/test/debug software. I could just as easily have used CodeWarrior on Windows to write MacOS (pre-X) plugins without a Mac in sight, but then all veracity would be through user/tester experience. That is a poor way to quickly test, fix-update, and retest code.

In this sense, MS has me by the nads. When (and not if) the time comes wherein my development system requires a move to Vista it will be a painful day indeed. Maybe by then I will have reached the point where I can retire and thumb my nose at MS. :)

Take care

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

kuroyume - you say MS has you by the nads...but surely it's not MS, but the users who have you by the nads? ;0)

With everything else I agree with you - Linux isn't a viable alternative to many software developers, there just isn't the user base...and there is one other reason - support would be a nightmare for software companies if the average home user were to use Linux. One of the reasons as to why Maxon went the Studio only route, of that I am almost certain.

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Quote - You can finally see what the Linux boys have been screaming about for years...

I... told... yo....nnnnggGGGGGGG... POW! (as /me's head goes 'splodey...) Nah - in all seriousness, I knew this was bound to happen. Let's set aside all the fanboyism and partisanship for a moment, myself included... ----------------- Windows' architecture, on a technical level, was simply not built for this. It isn't as robust nor as flexible as it seriously needs to be. I liken Vista to the upper floors of skyscraper under continuous and ongoing construction... built on a thick foundation of styrofoam. The lower floors are Windows NT, middle floors are Win2k, higher floors are XP/Win2k3... and now we get Vista. I'm sure many here have seen the results, no? This does not IMHO bode well for Windows' future, because they will simply have to rebuild from scratch from here on out, or later versions will simply get slower and less usable, in spite of Moore's Law. Problem is, if they do rebuild from scratch, legacy and existing apps will suffer - hard. Apple was smart enough to completely knock over MacOS and rebuild it on a *nix core for OSX years ago. This puts them in a better position now, IMHO - they chose and built OSX to be stable, flexible, and sturdy over time and technology. ------------------- Now, some will pipe up and proclaim that Vista runs just fine on their stuff... cool, good on 'em. But, I doubt it will be the majority, and as months (and patches) pass, such good luck stories are liable to decrease among folks who use non-Microsoft products and on anything that isn't a top-end, fully OEM-blessed machine. /P

Quote - kuroyume - you say MS has you by the nads...but surely it's not MS, but the users who have you by the nads? ;0)

With everything else I agree with you - Linux isn't a viable alternative to many software developers, there just isn't the user base...and there is one other reason - support would be a nightmare for software companies if the average home user were to use Linux. One of the reasons as to why Maxon went the Studio only route, of that I am almost certain.

It's a catch-22, really. Mainline developers won't do Linux because the small user base, and users won't do Linux because these mainline apps aren't there. There is, however, a way to break through all that: When Oracle ported to Linux awhile back, it turned out to be a huge money-maker for them, as sales boomed. Perhaps other app-makers can see the logic in this -- that the user base will grow if their products are a part of it? Similar successes have been seen by others in the user arena - Unreal Tournament, Quake... these games grew huge not only in Windows, but their Linux versions made them even bigger. Counterstrike went from big to huge once someone figured out how to run it under WINE. When Valve went strongly Windows-only w/ Half-Life2 (Counterstrike's base game engine), It and CS2 never really caught on. The point? You don't necessarily need a big userbase to make the effort justifiable... you can make the port, and use that as a vehicle for growth. A 3D/CG example? AC3D. It used to cost only $35 for the full version... now the guy can sell it (and does well from all appearances) for $149 or so - you can get it in Windows, OSX, or Linux, no prob. Technical challenges? Depends on the codebase. If the developer uses nothing but DirectX and .NET to build the thing, he's stuck... sucks to be him (same with anyone who relies on a single-platform language...) /P

Not at all. There is no built (compiled/linked for a particular instruction set) language that will give you blanket access to various platforms - unless you do command-line with no GUI (e.g.: most of Linux) or build your own GUI. Even then, you still need different build environments for different architectures (Intel, Motorola, Embedded). Once the code runs on an OS and you need OS API access, the codebase will have to cover each and every OS on which it will run (not just DirectX, but each OS has its own OS API for drivers, filesystem, GUI, ports, and so on) with separate builds.

Now, there are some ways to get around this with static/dynamic libraries such as Qt - but that really depends on the nature of the application and how deeply it might need to insert its tentacles into the underlying system architecture.

Also, there are build differences. I can only support Windows 32-bit, Windows 64-bit, MacOS PPC, and MacOS Universal binary through at minimum three development environments. You can't build UB code with Visual anything (anywhere - ever). You can't build Windows applications with XCode (or CodeWarrior unless you have the right version - but since CodeWarrior is now collecting-dust ware, that point is moot). XCode uses gcc (3 or 4) and lc, but it also gets you the Apple Mac Frameworks, Bundles, and dylibs to be included into the build so that you can do things that require the MacOS API (such as access the filesystem in a non-Posix way). Same as Visual Studio gives you the libs and dlls to get at the Windows API.

Currently, I'm lucky. I'm a plugin developer for an application - so I don't have to care about the OS APIs. But I still need to have a codebase that considers the differences between the build environments and systems - no way around it. Remember that this is C++ (probably still used more than any other language for application development).

These considerations are one reason that I skipped from C to Java and bypassed C++ back in the day. Here was the promise of a language that was fast while being completely platform-independent. That still hasn't been fully realized - not many high-end (or highly optimal) applications written in Java (or Python, Ruby et al). But it is fully capable for applications with GUI that do real work.

A note on CodeWarrior: although I used it only for MacOS PPC builds, it had build environments for Windows, Linux, Embedded systems, MacOS, and who knows what else. This was a build environment that tried to be one for many architectural/OS API possibilities. It is now defunct - sold to an electronics company that only heralds it for the Embedded portion and there will be no more versions.

To this end, this is one thing about Microsoft (and Apple to an extent) that I loathe (although MS had nothing to do with CodeWarrior's demise). In their buffoon-like rampage to quash anything that is 'ubiquitous' and outside their control (and profit margin), they destroy the best ideas at our disposal. JScript, J++, C# are all languages that testify to MS's commitment to kill a good technology and make it totally useless (i.e.: their own standards that only work for them and with which everyone else must comply). Basically anything that MS copies "to make better", I ignore. Direct3D - I'll stick to OpenGL. J++ - I'll stick to Java. Zune - I'll stick to, well, iPod. :) FrontPage - I'll stick with DreamWeaver. IIS - I'll stick with Apache (thank you very much). The list goes on...

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - Vista was released, and it was almost as if all the hardware and software manufacturers were getting it the same time as we, the public. Thus your printer probably won't work, cos XXX haven't written a Vista driver yet. Your scanner probably won't work, cos XXX haven't written a Vista driver for it yet. Your.... get the picture? I blame poor planning for this one - MS should have finished the OS, then released it to every hardware and software company they possibly could. Then sat on it for three months... and THEN released it to the public. But nooooo, they wanted it in the stores the day after new years, whatever the cost.

Is not so simple, do you think that fabricants are stupid?
With all the DRM and hardware and software Vista specifications any wise fabricant never would do a new product for Vista release, it can be a suicide.
What fabricants are doing is to wait and see what happens with Vista, if Vista is accepted and has success among the public then and only then will amke a hardware for Vista, drivers for Vista and software for Vista.
If Vista is a fracass, they didn't lost any money and can working and releasing new products for XP, Mac or Linux.
An alternative that fabricants can do is to take an old product, put a label "for Vista"on it and sell it as if is for Vista. There some action class processes going on in Justice.......

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote - Not at all. There is no built (compiled/linked for a particular instruction set) language that will give you blanket access to various platforms - unless you do command-line with no GUI (e.g.: most of Linux) or build your own GUI. Even then, you still need different build environments for different architectures (Intel, Motorola, Embedded). Once the code runs on an OS and you need OS API access, the codebase will have to cover each and every OS on which it will run (not just DirectX, but each OS has its own OS API for drivers, filesystem, GUI, ports, and so on) with separate builds.

It depend on the application. You can divide the software in two parts, the core and the user interface (GUI). The GUI is dependant on the OS used, it can depend more or less, but always depend. The core can be made to not depend on the OS.
In the case of 3d programs the most important and heavy part is the 3d part, the GUI can be very simple or complicated depending on the application, in any case is only a small part of the program.
The core that is the 3d part itself the only thing that needs from the OS is malloc() and free() and this can be provided by the compiler used.
You can make all the file access needed using standart io C functions that are also provided by the compiler, remaining only graphic interface that depend on the OS.
Is not difficult to write multi-platform 3d software, 80 or 90 % of the software is the same for any platform remaining the GUI that must be made one by one for every platform.
The other overhead that can exist is the optimization for speed of the core (in 3d is important), but the optimization doesn't depend on the OS, it depend only on the CPU used.
If your target is only PC platform or Mac running on Intel/AMD and you use only instruccions that are common to Intel and AMD you only need to have one optimized core.
Of course, if you write your software using Microsoft's MFC, DirectX, Microsoft SDK, Microsoft Visual C you end doing a program that only is able to work in Windows and probably if you use Microsoft newest C compiler your software will only run on Microsoft's Vista.

Stupidity also evolves!

Basically what Kawecki said... if you use a language that is recognized and buildable across platforms, then you can segregate the OS-specific bits off to one side, making porting easier. Perfect example and one relevant to us here in Poserdom: DAZ|Studio takes very little to port over between platforms, and the plugins are mostly drop-easy to port over. The UI is based on Qt ( http://www.trolltech.com ), which is itself cross-platform. The core is in C++ and is heavily Object Oriented in style. This means that the only things left are basically things that cannot be avoided due to the x86/PPC architectural differences (and by now this is mostly a legacy thing on the Mac side due to all of us old-school G5 Mac holdouts :) ). Now, if D|S were written purely in .NET and/or Visual Basic, and using DirectX instead of OpenGL, it would require a near-total re-write of the whole thing just to port it to something that's Not Windows. Someday when time permits me (or I hit the lottery), I might even be able to talk DAZ into letting me do a Linux port of it. I know that porting would be fairly trivial by now, IMHO... just that I barely have time to get a few hours in here and there nowadays, and I know they don't have the resources to spare in maintenance, else it prolly would've happened by now. /P

I said it depends. You can segregate, but that just makes 'porting easier' - but it doesn't make it non-descript. You still need to consider the OS-specifics (architecture specifics, filesystem specifics) in a separate module/lib/dynamiclib/etc.
I mentioned Qt (didn't I - you can double check that). :P Yes, I agree and was saying this, but there are other things to consider. Unless you expect people to play by specific rules, current filesystems can handle much more than Posix path structures (I've specifically run into this with MacOSX and zlib - where zlib uses fopen()). The problem is that MacOSX and Windows allow Unicode folder/file naming. fopen() doesn't - of this I am 1000% certain - been using fopen() since, hmmm, before some of you (gen.) were born (in the original C libs). There are variants like Microsoft's _wfopen() but these are platform-dependent (not good) and not part of the standard. Don't know if fstream has been updated since then, but then zlib doesn't use fstream without some third-party wrapper.

Both D|S and I have to contend with, speaking of legacy, something from Poser - MacOS Resources. Poser still uses them - although they are basically legacy that doesn't mean that they don't exist. I assure you that they are still alive and well on my Mac in Poser 4/PP. Handling them using CodeWarrior and the 'old' Mac API (ala Carbon for MacOSX) was relatively simple. Handling them using Xcode in the new Mac API is very frustrating - as Resources are 'shunned' (no longer supported) in favor of Bundles.

Again, it all depends on what your application needs to do. Mine needs to dig its tentacles into the OS API here unfortunately. :) I have no idea how D|S handles them - if it even does or if it preprocesses them out to .rsr or .png.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Java certainly has its charms, especially since the vastly improved 3D handling that has emerged recently. And there's a JRE and JDK for just about any hardware/OS platform around. NetBeans is a nice and free comprehensive development environment (but needs a fast machine). The Eclipse environment is pretty cool too, but it's not fully platform independent.

There's only one gotcha. If you want a Java app that is really robust and fast, you need another JRE, not the free reference JRE from Sun. And the really fast and robust JREs are EXPENSIVE! The one that comes with WebSphere often outperforms native C/C++ compiled apps, since the JRE optimizes for the machine the code is run on, not for the machine the code is developed on. But WebSphere is a) far too large a package to purchase for a good JRE alone, and b) out of budget for everyone except large companies (several hundred thousands of dollars....)

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

I turned off the nannie control with my partner's help. That stopped some of the annoyance. . . Rick is smart and knows what to do with Vista. If I was on my own, I would have had no clue what to do. I am not "stupid" - I just don'e tahnt to have to have a tech certifcation to use my own damn computer. I ahve had lots of problems . . . .now Flash will not work - even though we have unistalled it and reinstalled it and I have troied to update it umteen times. I wish I was back on XP. BTW - I am on a souped up gaming computer - we have updated all of my drivers . . .

I live with a MS developer - my own helpdesk right across the room - and we still can't get to run with out problems.

PS - HEre is an interesting link where a retired co-president of MS called Vista a "pig". This is a link from the article posted in the forum here. Here is an exceprt from the link:

"LH - Longhorn - now know as Vista - is a pig and I don't see any solution to this problem. I we are to rise to the challenge of Linusx and Apple, we need to start taking lessons of 'senario, simple, fast" to heart."
Jim Allcin, Retired Co-President of MS in a memo on Jan 7 - 2007

kuroyume - I have no doubt that there are always little things that make life real fun for cross-platform programming (take file I/O, ferinstance... okay, let's not. The less said about that particular headache, the better). OTOH, the point I was pressing is that with a good sense of architecture and an eye for cross-platform compatibility, you can make it relatively pain-free to shift platforms. If you tangle yourself into a proprietary morass of language and method, you're basically stuck, period. Prolly lots of app-makers for the old Commodore out there that found out the hard way what happens when you get tied too close to an OS. As for how D|S deals w/ MacOS-style resource handling? Can't remember half of it this far out, but I do remember that the solutions weren't near the headache you've described in regards to cross-platform porting issues. IIRC, it was one of the many reasons I really loved Taylor's sense of problem-solving. I agree perfectly on one thing though - from what little I've seen of it recently, the new Mac API kit sucks to wrap one's brain around... but that'd be just as bad as wrapping oneself around .NET, IMHO. Avoiding ObjC would be just as paramount as avoiding C#, IMHO. svdl: Just be glad you've never had to mess about w/ Webmethods - bleah. My last employer is prolly still trying to untangle themselves from that snarl of a kit that they had inherited. /P

Ah, Web methods. Now that is one of the things that .NET does really well. Even in Mono.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter