cobaltdream - Yeah, I was just debating this with my partner and she was pointing out the same about differences between various apps that people might use to make stuff, and about the minor discrepancies in RW measuring devices. 

Minor discrepancies I can live with and accept. I just wish that those in virtual spaces weren't so big at times. I hate the constant re-scaling game. 

I guess it is just a fact of virtual life.

Just for the heck of it, I took Poser 6, dropped V3 in it and zeroed it, switched poser units to feet, and it reads that V3 is 6.2 feet tall.  I used a horizontal plane and raised it just above her head and read the Ytran.  Did the same with:
M3: 6.5'
Aiko 3 LE: 5.7'
James: 6.5'
Jessi: 6.0'  
(I don't have other figures handy here at the office)

They're a bit taller then what most architectural standards consider the average male and female (I think by about half a foot - going from memory and not having the standards in front of me)  So, as for standardizing things, if people used normal architectural units and standards, and use Poser's internal conversion, objects should come out pretty proportionate to the figures. 
One can always scale down the figure a tad, rather then scale up all the props...

For example, 1 modelling unit on my last project may be 1 foot, so when importing into Poser, I need to keep in mind how many Poser native units are in one foot, to get a conversion factor. (I need to look up how poser native units compare to feet and meters)

okay, did another test, it appears that one native poser unit i(PU) is:

a) 1PU = 8.5986 feet    and 1 foot = 0.116297 PU
b) 1PU = 2.62128 m    and 1m = 0.381493 PU

so, if one is using another application, using feet or meters as it's *input units, the objects would need to be scaled down by factor a) for feet, and by factor b) for meters to put them into poser units, proportionate to the figures.

*input units.... for example, when making a model, any model, I tend to decide that 1 unit in my applicetion is to represent 1 foot, and model accordingly.  Then when importing in poser I need to remember that my model was created with feet as measuring units in mind, and use the appropriate conversion factor to bring me in poser units world. and in proportion to it's characters.

Now, how the proportion of various poser figures relates to real world humans and architectural standards... heh, that can be another long debate.... and I'm not touching that one!

Quote - ...

Now, how the proportion of various poser figures relates to real world humans and architectural standards... heh, that can be another long debate.... and I'm not touching that one!

Note - Architectural standards vary (sometimes widely) by country and sometimes even by region.

i.e., There is NO world "standard", per se ......... and Poser is "out of this world."
___ HUH?

;=]

Quote - @ JarodIlcast Hmmm .................................. :blink:
My 1 metre ruler ........... is only 96 cm ???

I guess it must have been left out in the rain and shrunk, no?

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

Maybe it was just a cold day!

And just to throw some more confusion into all this, I shoved a bunch of figures into Studio and sized 'em up.  Unfortunately, I've only got Poser 5, so I couldn't measure Jesse, James, Simon or Sydney, but here's my list (some of the feet & inches are a bit approximate):
Aiko 3 - 166.65cm (5' 5 1/2")
The Freak - 183.9cm (6')
The Girl - 170.25cm (5' 7")
David 3 - 166.5cm (5' 5 1/2")
Hiro 3 - 166.8cm (5' 5 1/2")
Laura 3 - 143.25cm (4' 8 1/3")
Luke 3 - 143.25cm (4' 8 1/3")
Michael 2 - 185.15cm (A little under 6' 1")
Michael 3 - 185.1cm (A little under 6' 1")
Stephanie 1 - 179.9cm (A little bit under 5' 11")
Stephanie Petite - 166.5cm (5' 5 1/2")
Victoria 2 - 179.95cm (An even littler bit under 5' 11")
Victoria 3 - 179.9cm (A little under 5' 11")
Victoria 4 - 179cm (5' 10 1/2")
DAZ Troll - 214.9cm (7' and 1/2")
Nybras - 313.5cm (10' 3 1/2" including his horns!)

Terai Yuki 2 - 165.3cm (5' 5")
Dork - 183.45cm (6' and 1/4")
Posette - 172.6cm (Just a hint under 5' 8")
Don - 184.45cm (6' and 1/2")
Judy - 176cm (5' 9 1/4")

And winner of the tallest (human) guy in DAZ|Studio is:
Apollo Maximus 2007 - 185.35cm (Just a teeny tiny hair under 6' 1" (it's actually 0.97"))

It occurs to me that Anton will know exactly how tall Apollo should be, has he ever posted this?  I couldn't find anything on the r'osity forums, but that could just mean my Search Fu is weak.

Jarod, your heights seem somewhat shorter then mine.... 
I'm curious, did you straighten up the legs to make them stand up straight, or did you leave them in a slight knee bend position?
I get measurements closer to yours when I don't make them stand up straight.

Maybe there are other differences between Poser 5 and Poser 6?

Conniekat, I did try and make sure everyone was standing up straight.  I was measuring in DAZ|Studio rather than Poser, and that seems to make the difference, it looks like everything is a bit smaller in Studio.

Ah, daz studio... rereads previous post and mumbles... I suppose it would behoove me to pay closer attention LOL!

I'll have to try that one too.... sounds like DAZ units give a tad more realistic people sizes.

Just for grins, I looked up what wikipedia says about **average human height: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_height
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_proportions

** Almost noone falls into the 'average human' category. Everyone seems to have one quirk or another.

And, the winner is .................................

...Oh no, not this discussion again, the last time we had this it ended in flaming and yelling and other nasty things.

@drGeep, you say that 1 poserunit is 100 inch, but in the Poser(5,6,7) manual it says it's 8.6 feet or 262,128 centimeters. Who is right? I agree that 100 inch is much more elegant, but I'm tended to follow the manual (They don't say RTFM for nothing, don't they?)

As a furniture designer I've always checked ergonomicsdata to make a good design. This data are based on statistic wealth surveys as well as army recruit data. These data are not fixed or static, they differ from country to country, and in time. In times of economic wealth people are taller and in times of depressions people are smaller. So people in the middle-ages were actually a lot smaller than people are today.
These data are also separated  in female and male proportions and are based on a Gause-scale: there is a minimum, an average and maximum dimension: Someone who is smaller than the minimum or taller than the maximum, can(!)  have a growth disfunction. But as I said this differs from country to country: In China I'm a giant, in my own country (Holland) I'm just above average. (As an anomalie: the tallest man on earth lives in China: 2.4m, or about 8 feet!)
But back to the design topic: I've used the Posermanual PNU-explanation as starting point for my chairs, but when I imported an used them in Poser with Vicky3 or Michael3 they were always too small, so I had to scale them up a little. So the conclusion was that Daz made them too big considering the official Poser scale. (Which was also Stahlratte's conclusion, but that was a discussion about proportion, on which I won't burn my fingers on!, this is about scale)
What is my advice on scale: Well, don't use any! When you import a Poser-model in a 3D-modeller, it's always very small, scale it up to a workable size and model the clothes and props and furniture around just the way you like it, don't think that something has to be exactly four inch or 32cm. just model something that "looks" good. In this way, your design will look far more natural than when you try to achieve some standard proportions. When you want make a chair: pose your figure in a sitting position export it, and model the chair under her or his buttocks, it will always fit!
And if you really want to use exact dimensions: Decide yourself how long you want your figure to be: Draw a line of that height and scale your posermodel until it has the same height(note the amount you have to scale up) , model your props or clothes on the acquired dimensions and when you're finished  scale it down to the original size and export it. Once imported in Poser it has the right dimensions compaired to your model.

Best regards,

Bopperthijs.

Quote - bopperthijs

@drGeep, you say that 1 poserunit is 100 inch, but in the Poser(5,6,7) manual it says it's 8.6 feet or 262,128 centimeters. Who is right?

What he said was....

Quote - Dr. Geep.........

DGS uses
1.000 Pnu = 100.0 inches so that
1.000 Pnu = (exactly) 8.333... feet or 8 feet 4 inches (8'4")

8.6 feet = 102 inches roughly give or take a few mm

For me it looks like this:
Height of V3 in Poser 7:         1929.7520838843mm
Height of V3 in CATIA V5R17: 1795.121mm

Height of V4 in Poser 7:         1923.4654936285mm
Height of V4 in CATIA V5R17: 1789.273mm

The values for height are the same as used in CAM  for programming the machines with CATIA.
It uses SI standards and Poser 7 use something else.
1m as defined by SI is 1.0749983337525826834968405798971m in Poser 7.
Or 1m in Poser is 0.930234m SI.

There is no inch, feet, link, furlong, fathom, whatever.

But for those that use these units:
V3's height in Poser 7 is: 6 ft 3.97449149150 in (periodic -> 787401574803149606299212598425196850393700)
V3's height in CATIA is: 5 ft 10.674 in

V4's height in Poser 7 is: 6 ft 3.7269879381 in
V4's height in CATIA is: 5 ft 10.443 in (periodic -> 818897637795275590551181102362204724409448)

If you want a figure that is [n] mm high you simply apply this scaling to it.
However, Poser does not really care about anything smaller then 0.001 in whatever scaling you'd chose.

.... ummm... Us foot or international?
[ducking and running]---------------------------->

Forgot to mention the figures pose:

V3:
Neck Bend -4°
Chest Bend 2°
Abdomen Bend 2°
rButtock Twist -3° / rButtock Side-Side 1° / rButtock Bend 1°
rThigh Twist -3° / rThigh Side-Side 0.5° / rThigh Bend -2°
rShin Bend 3°
rFoot Twist -2° / rFoot Side-Side -2° / rFoot Bend -3°
rToe Twist -1° / rToe Bend 5°

V4:
rFoot Bend -24°

What is not listed here is set to zero. Same for left side.
V3 is somewhat posed to achieve a Pose similar to that of V4 with bent feet only.

BTW, I get the same heights as stated before if importing the figures to I-DEAS.
In both apps the height was determined by measuring the distance between the farthest antipodes of the objects.
e.g. the distance between feet sole and highest point of the skull. There was no applied weight of the figure nor any other physical pressures.

Quote - .... ummm... Us foot or international?
[ducking and running]---------------------------->

I used the international foot (304.8mm) and inch (25.4mm) for conversion as you would see if you look at the results. The US survey foot defined as 1200/3937 m is to regional limited for this purpose. OTOH, the ~610nm difference are in Poser only relevant if figure or prop dimensions exceed 10^6 ft.

Huh? :blink:

What's confusing now? :lol:

Maybe this helps a little:
I used metric system in Poser 7 and looked what height said figures have.
Next I imported these figures to CATIA and looked for their height again.
There was no physical simulation done because it won't matter for Poser or D|S or many other apps that don't have FEM and phys. sim.
After I got the height from CATIA I posted the results here.
Finally I added the Pose data  for the figures and mentioned that I-DEAS came to the same results for height as CATIA because I imported them to that suite as well.

The scale related stuff was that 1m SI is 0.930234m in Poser 7.
The other numbers are related to the figures height since obviously there is some confusion about how their height can be interpreted correctly.

-tow

Ummmmm......yeah. OK.

Simple, innitt???

My brain hurts now..... :(

Quote - What's confusing now? :lol:
Maybe this helps a little:
I used metric system in Poser 7 and looked .....-tow

LOL, I should have known that you know the difference between US foot and international, and that you probably know the current definition of one meter....   (it's a good thing)

I was just trying to be funny asking about US foot or international, since the difference does fall a few decimals past the significant figures :)   I just couldn't resist but to give you some friendly razzing when I saw how neatly and precisely you laid it out.   ;)

I have a recollection that, pre-P5, it was generally accepted that 1 PNU = 96 inches. Which is 8 feet. And it's been reported upthread that D|S makes 100 units DGS come out as 96 units by its own internal conversions. So D|S must be using that old 96-inch standard. As for proportions, I suppose the best thing to do is point folks at da Vinci'sVitruvian Man. When I'm importing a mesh I use DGS. It's sitting in the middle, and doesn't look obviously wrong. I've paid for Poser models which are badly out of scale, a 50% error rather than 5%. It looks careless, but it isn't a huge problem.

Attached Link: Dr Geep's Scale Tutorial

@ AntoniaTiger .... :biggrin: ... Thank you.

Another "feature" of using DGS is that when you use the parameter dial to move an object ...

... it will move in EXACTLY 1/10 inch increments making it very easy to align the edges of two different objects with precision.  That's 0.001 Pnu increments using the "Click & Drag" on the parameter dial method.

Just thought you might like to know. ... ;=]

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

P.S.  DGS, try it, you'll like it and, as AntoniaTiger says, " When I'm importing a mesh I use DGS. It's sitting in the middle, and doesn't look obviously wrong."(as shown in the graphic above - Page 12 - excerpt from the Poser 6 Tutorial Archive at Dr Geep Studios.)

DGS lies almost exactly between the scales used in Poser 5 and Poser 6/Poser 7 (as shown in the graphic above) so that any scaling error is minimized for any of these versions of Poser, i.e., P5, P6, or P7.

Also, props created in Poser 4 using DGS will fit in other versions of Poser with minimal scaling error.

Quote - DGS lies almost exactly between the scales used in Poser 5 and Poser 6/Poser 7 (as shown in the graphic above) so that any scaling error is minimized for any of these versions of Poser, i.e., P5, P6, or P7.

AHA!  
My bad for not paying enough attention to Dr. Geeps wonderful work. Averaging out the difference (or there abouts) to create something that works closely with most versions! What a cleverly engineered idea! :)

Is that what you meant by the "and the winner is..." coment few posts ago?  I'm sowwy my scattered kitty brain was on infrmation overload at the moment, and your point went right over my head. :(

@ DrGeep: I didn't know about the difference in scale between Poser 5 and 6, I only followed the Posermanual, I think your DGS scale is an acceptable average for the different versions.
I'm glad you also made a meterscale cause as an european, working in in feet and inches can be quite confusing, cause they haven't a decimal proportion.
I know it's difficult to accept and understand new values, but as international working engineer I will be glad when americans will give up their stubborness on keeping their traditional feet and inch system like the english and the canadians  did.

But referring to my previous reply: Use your favourite posermodel as your reference, model your scene and props to fit with it. And as anyone doesn't realise by now: Poser isn't exact science, its more like fuzzy logics: if it looks too small, make it bigger. If it looks too big make it smaller. Just untill it looks right!

Best regards,

Bopperthijs

Well that's what prompted me to start the thread - what "looks right" is not the same for everyone (big-headed short people e.g.).

Reminds me on a Randy Newman song.LOL

Regards,

Bopperthijs

One thing to remember is that we vary in our ability to cope. There are all sorts of little tricks, and then some of us will cheerfully attack a Poser datafile with a text editor. Being aware of the scale variation is one of those little tricks, as is the stuff about body proportions. And working through geeps tutorials will expose you to a lot. Yeah, I know about this metric/Imperial stuff. I'm old enough a European to have tangled with both: 22 yards to a chain, 10 chains to a furlong, 8 furlongs to a mile. And 10 square chains to an acre. And there's always the firkin-furlong-fortnight system. The current official Poser scale is stupid. It isn't a round figure in either system; not in inches, feet, or metres. Not 100 inches. Not 8 feet. Not 2.5 metres. Stupid. People don't often make props in Poser, so Poser's built-in conversion isn't much use.

... except when they do ................................. make props in Poser, that is.  :biggrin:

cheers,
dr geep
;=]

I got curious and did a "how many heads" test on the model in the photo (who is wearing 3-inch heels, BTW) and some favorite classic nudes (Rubens' wife, Bougereau's Venus). I got head counts ranging from 6.5 to 8. Three things come to mind: oversize heads are examples of our linking beauty with neoteny (immature proportions), real humans have proportions that vary considerably (and so do "artistic beauties"; do a head count on a Renoir some time), and the Poser world's idea of average is about as realistic as Hustler's.

In Louisiana, land of the most beautiful tiny women in the world, cajun femmes under 4'9" often have "normally" proportioned heads (1/7th height or so) rather than "oversize" heads (which are probably more likely; I suspect that head size and hand size -- and that other -- do not vary proportionally to height any more than to weight). The effect is that rather than looking like pneumatic children they look like miniature adults.

M