I am defending Poser in a Max/Maya forum as we speak. I would never have brought the subject up, since Poser gets dissed day in and day out at such places, but spotted two "Poser insults" as I was surfing for information on XSI and Max and just could not hold back.

WARNING: if you attempt to register and post, they screen your postings at first and they are REALLY BAD at keeping up with it. KEEP A COPY OF ANYTHING YOU POST in case they lose it.

::::: Opera :::::

At the end of the day Poser is a tool just like any other 3d application, if people can't get past their elitist "my app is the only one to use, all else is a toy" bullsh*t attitude then I wouldn't give them the time of day.

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

well i am not going to spend much time on it....but I am a little blown away at the extent of their chavinistic pride in their particular paradigm.

:: og ::

**dphoadley@****operaguy
**You fail to indicate where this site is, so it's very hard to rally the troops if they don't know where to assemble.
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

The problem is that most of the high end apps need the user to have a degree of some sort to be able to understand the front end, the Poser designers made the fatal error of making it easy to understand & therefore accessible to more than just the elite & they don't like us amateurs encroaching on their territory. S*d them! They can stick to reinventing the teapot & sphere while I play dressup with Poser ;)

Windows 7 64Bit
Poser Pro 2010 SR1

Quote - **dphoadley@****operaguy
**You fail to indicate where this site is, so it's very hard to rally the troops if they don't know where to assemble.
DPH

Google is your friend. Follow the Path of Google-Fu.

(or find it in 3.4 seconds by putting 3DBuzz in Google. it's the top answer)

dont worry what other ppl think. do what you enjoy and sod everything else

You can't control what others say and do, but you can control how you react to it.

There is no need to defend Poser or your choice for using it. Their views are elitist and nothing you say will change their opinions because they aren't interested in changing it or seeing it from a different point of view.

Pick your battles :) This isn't one worth fighting or getting your blood pressure raised over.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Sorry, i forgot to include the link!

http://www.3dbuzz.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=150857

not a good idea to try to incite a lynch mob every time some 3D snob bad-mouths poser IMVHO. it would be a full-time job, as somebody is maligning it every hour of every day AFAIK. what I'd rather see is poser users attempting to raise the level of their work, as is currently being done, in a constructive manner, by the critique group here. the day is long past when any giant-boob, nostril-glow p3-style render should be given a pass without some reminder that it's substandard work, if we are gonna make those 3D snobs see the light of day. we shouldn't make it possible for them to judge the app by our continual, uncritical praise of the worst efforts of the folks with the most user errors.

well, i hope a lynch mob does NOT go over there, unless they can actually show fine work in poser. I stand by my choice both to create the post I did and draw attention to it here. Miss Nancy is correct, however, in the sense that anyone not able to make a rational case and post images that can stand up in that forum should not argue for arguing's sake. If anyone thinks the image I posted is a case in point, feel free to say so and give me constructive criticism in context.

Note: the file I posted at 3DBuzz is of better quality than the one here...it is the full .png over there, too big for Rendo limits.

::::: Opera :::::

Tell them they eat poo poo!

My Freebies

Hmmm I wonder if photographers are lesser artists since they weren't around for the whole creating adam and eve thing? Or maybe only women photographers are artists, since only we have the capability of forming humans.

I guess all those nature photographers are SOL - since obviously none of them create the plant life.

Divinci, now there's a craptacular artist for you - that fool didn't even take the time to make his own paints.

Point is, EVERYONE stands on someone elses shoulders to create art. Even Mr. Elitist there in that forum - I will give in that perhaps he can build his own PC - but did he invent his processor which helps him handle the 3d load? - does he credit Bill Gates and the maker of his wacom in his work? Without these tools he would be less equipped as well.

I am: aka Velocity3d

That was slight compared to some of the other forums I have read by "real artists" commenting on Poser.

I've been banned from so many CGI sites it's kinda sad...but, funny. I don't claim to be an artist, though, have in the past. I realize that it's just a obsessive hobby for me.

BUT, don't you dare say that I've "stolen other artists work, claiming it as my own" when I post something I've worked on for a few days and put my signature on it. I may not have built everything in the picture, but, I do give credit to the artist items I use.

The arguments I've gotten into wth other CGI people is they automatically think that since they know a program like Maya, they are automatically artists. I'm sorry, but, I've seen many Maya (and other 3D ap galleries) and I've seen some really bad stuff posted followed by their fangirls and fanboys shrieking how fabulous it looks. (but, that's everywhere with every type of artistic outlet)

Just because you can use a tool doesn't make you a professional nor does it make you an artist.

Would a remapped Posette contemplating her foot count for something? DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

dphoadley that is a damn nice pose and render!

did you guys see my "clay" comment there?

I did see your clay comment - that was good = )

DP imo that is the very best you have done, that looks fabulous!

I am: aka Velocity3d

While I didn't actually seek to copy any of his specific pictures, I was inspired by the work of abetaltre, who's a regular here in the galleries.
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Tell them that you'd heard a rumor that Maya and Max were both great apps, and that you'd wanted to verify whether or not the rumor was true. Then tell them that you've discovered that the rumor has GOT to be true: because every user of those programs attains instant personal greatness merely by firing up the software on their computers! It works like magic!

Plus, those software packages serve to elevate the anointed Users Of The APPS to heights of personal worth which are well above the remainder of the human race. The high-priest practioners of the ART can then lay about in togas and eat clusters of grapes hand-fed to them by slaves, while they mutually congratulate themselves on having achieved such status as to sit among the clouds -- and far above everyone else. Spitting out grape seeds over the balcony rails, and onto the heads of those filthy animals dwelling in the 3D ditch below them.

No......they're not like those other people.......the ones who're too stupid to be admitted past the door with the "Only Smart People Like Us Are Allowed In Here!" sign hanging on the front.

Human nature always needs someone else that it can look down on. You lift yourself up by lowering others. Or at least that's the accepted method.

"Vanity" comes from a root meaning "emptiness" or "to be empty". But we've all got it. It's a disease common to all human beings.

Quote - Just because you can use a tool doesn't make you a professional nor does it make you an artist.

Well said. Very well said.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Missed a few steps, opera..... :P ;) 1) You get an idea for a character, scene or a film. 1a) Develop characters; both look and personality traits 1b) story premise. 1c) Actual plot(s). 1d) rough story draft. 1e) 1st revised script (words and action, no shooting info) 1f) initial storyboarding 1g) 1st shooting script 1h) first round of revisions to deal with issues of difficulty in implementation. 1i) Next round of script/storyboard revisions 1j) Repeat as neccesary to lean things out and simplify scenework as much as possible. 2) Model 3) Texture 4) Design shaders 5) if animation....Rig 6) if animation....keyframe 7) if animation...cloth sim 8) if animation...hair sim 9) if single image...pose 10) lighting 11) render 12) Post Production 12a) Special effects creation 12b) Vocal tracks 12c) Foley tracks 12d) Scoring 13) Compositing 14) Titles and Credits. 15) Distribution prep 16) Check-in at local sanitarium And I left out a lot of steps, as well..... BTW, have you ever checked out a piece of software called MovieWriter Pro? It is a nice, low cost script formatting word processor app with some story development goodies thrown in for good measure ( a scene map, synopsis, an expandable elements area to create custom info to tailor it for your scripts etc). I tried it on a lark, and was rather impressed with it.

Well, to be frank, in spite of liking poser, and liking to play with it's content, I do get little higher sense of self-respect when I create a 'from scratch' piece, which does require several apps and a ton more work then tweaking and assembling a scene in poser.

On the other hand, I can have more creative liberty in some aspects of quick experimenting with the 'final look' when I use 'quick and handy little apps - my pet name for apps like Poser and Bryce and similar'.

I haven't gone to see the thread the original poster is complaining about. I'm never fond of anyone 'devaluing ' the other side, nor do I like trying to compare apples and oranges. Comparing Poser to Max or Maya, to me is like comparing apples and oranges. They're not the same thing, the process of cration something in tose apps isn't the same thing.

I can see how someone claiming that creating a piece in poser takes the sme amount of work and effort as creating something from scratch in maya will come across as devaluing work of others, and is likely to draw some cross comments.

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Well, the reactions weren't that bad. Two jerks, agreed, one of which can't be very mature judging by his "SMS speak" - probably using a warez copy of Max. The rest of the responses were quite reasonable. Not that I agree with them, but reasonable all the same.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

**Conniekat8, "**I can see how someone claiming that creating a piece in poser takes the sme amount of work and effort as creating something from scratch in maya will come across as devaluing work of others, and is likely to draw some cross comments."
**
You undervalue the power of my approach, sorry. You should have gone there before speaking. I did not claim anything about "same amount of work" and I did not devalue, yet hopefully I may have helped stop them from dissing Poser out of hand and out of ignorance. And besides, with all due respect to your sense of satisfaction as mentioned, which I understand....put yourself in the place of the person who completes all 16 of Dale's steps above, while the modeler only attacks perhaps 2,3,10.11 and 12.

Dale....I use Final Draft and have written a full screenplay. Got dinged by a Hollywood type because I went over the 'sacred' 115 pages. I like your list and certainly agree, especially point 16!

::::: Opera :::::
**

svdl, i agree that besides the initial jerks, the others have been mild and reasonable.

Quote - every user of those programs attains instant personal greatness merely by firing up the software on their computers! It works like magic!

It has a "Make Art" button?!!!

OMG! Where can I get that magical program!!

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I like point #16 on Dale's list. Perhaps the most labor-saving approach would be to skip over all of the other steps, and jump directly to #16. That way you can avoid a lot of unnecessary grief, and get directly to the conclusion of the whole matter.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Oh, and nobody mentioned morphing the heck out of the model, using magnets, combinations of built in morphs, and the morph brush tool, bringing the geometry up to snuff for a good still render?

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

I didn't think they were ready for the concept of a mesh deforming brush inside of Poser. I really like that tool, by the way.

Dale B's list reminded me a bit of what I went through remapping Posette. Now remapping V4.1 is providing me with a whole new set of dizzy dithers.
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Quote - put yourself in the place of the person who completes all 16 of Dale's steps above, while the modeler only attacks perhaps 2,3,10.11 and 12.

Please note that I talked about sense of satisfaction of 'creating' something from scratch, rather then just modeling it, or taking any segment of the process, as opposed to the whole process.

Quote - I did not claim anything about "same amount of work"

I never said you claimed that, which is why I very carefully pointed out that I didn't read your specific discussion, and deliberately said "I can see how someone..." rather than saying "you claimed that..."

As for devaluing, I'm sorry if you feel your particular efforts are being devalued, however, I do stand by my statement that creating a scene in poser does not require the same amount of time, effort or skill then creating (not just modelling, but creating, which would include ALL of the steps Dale mentioned) a piece with other applications in question.
Also, you need to take notice that this doesn't mean that work in poser is not of value all together. Like I said, I use it myself on many occasion.

Quote - You undervalue the power of my approach, sorry. You should have gone there before speaking.

I specifically said I did not go read the thread (nor do I intend to), nor am I familiar with your particular approach, just so you would know that I'm not talking about you specifically, but more generally about the reccuring Poser VS. high end apps argument.
My comments will make a lot more sense if interpreted within the contextual parameters I outlined.

As for what I should and shouldn't do, noone is preventing you from attempting to tell me what I should do, however, you do need to take notice that you have no actual say in what I do, and that I consider it very impolite, if not argumentaive and rude, on your part.
If there's an application or a cause you are attempting to defend, this kind of emotional outbursts will not do it service, but only harm.

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"Everytime poser is used an artists gets their wings" Oooooo I'll reserve my comment about elitists!

My Facebook Page

If you were not talking about this specific situation, or about me specifically, then what prompted you to make a 'general' comment about people devaluing, etc? Were you just walking by and decided to start up a new topic right in the middle of this one?

Hey DP, your are ditzy because of that cute but unnatural growth coming out of your head.

Will your remap mean all V3 textures work on V4?

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - I like point #16 on Dale's list. Perhaps the most labor-saving approach would be to skip over all of the other steps, and jump directly to #16. That way you can avoid a lot of unnecessary grief, and get directly to the conclusion of the whole matter.

LOL, yea, but, then all of those who got to 16 the hard way and are full of resentment over it would take it out on you, try to make your life miserable and tell you that you don't belong!

Well, we just got past the My Vicky is better then Your vicky argument, so Poser is being dissed argument was bound to crop up...
[Kitty checks her 'schedule of recurring arguments' booklet...]

People be warned: When it gets to three pages long, I'm posting kitty pictures.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

that render by dave of posette in the chair is very nice IMVHO. I like it. there are some difficulties with the area of the right knee, face and right hand, but nobody will notice them. perhaps posting such an image at the maya or maxx forum might be instructive.

' Hey DP, your are ditzy because of that cute but unnatural growth coming out of your head.

Will your remap mean all V3 textures work on V4?

::::: Opera :::::'

That cute bit of growth is my grandson, Ariel-Yehuda. He's now one and a half years old. :biggrin:
And yes, once I finish remapping V4, it should take ALL of V3's textures, just like my PosetteV3 does now. My big question is: How would those 3D Maxers/Mayers rate UV Mapper as a modeling app (you don't actually creat stuff in UV Mapper, but if done well, you sure can make them LOOK good). :thumbupboth:
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

I don't usually bother talking about this stuff, but here's two points that come to mind for me anyway.

All those other apps are toys when it comes to shaders. Almost all those ridiculous snobs use UV mapped texture images, most of which are either photos they downloaded (didn't even photograph themselves), or they are seamless tiles they downloaded. Almost none of them bother making procedural textures like I do, from scratch, using only math. Even if they wanted to, those toy apps they use can't do full blown procedural shaders, like Poser. They make me laugh with the feeble wrapping of other people's photos on their objects and claim its their own "art" work. LOL
Last time I gave a piano performance in public, I played Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue and several hundred people stood up at the end and cheered like maniacs. Not one of them claimed I was a lesser artist because I played a piece written by someone else. Also, I did not construct the piano I used. It wasn't even my piano - I just walked up and played whatever was on the stage at the time. Nobody complained that I used a crappy Baldwin while real professionals play Bosendorfers.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

i love it when one group of people turn to childish taunts because someone can do what your doing easier and cheeper, and i particularly like it when the reply is "Tell them to eat poo poo".
Thanx pjz99 it made me laugh

Getting old and still making "art" without soiling myself, now that's success.

Quote - Dale....I use Final Draft and have written a full screenplay. Got dinged by a Hollywood type because I went over the 'sacred' 115 pages. I like your list and certainly agree, especially point 16!

::::: Opera :::::

I considered Final Draft myself, but have a long standing love of WordPerfect, and the cost was a bit more for another word processor (MovieWriter was only $24.80 US). It would be nice to get a script produced, but I daresay my....rearranging of conventional borders doesn't make that likely. Besides, it's a lot more challenging to write and animate and all the other things yourself. Oh, I forgot: 16a) While busily sucking your toes in the nice polyvinyl room, you being to plan the storyline for the next one.....

Wow BB, you are rad! Yes, I notice none of them responded to my "shader inclusion"

By the way, you know if you play the Rhapsody on a Bosendorfer, it is rumoured that the run in the first measure actually sounds just like a real clarinet smear!

I have been saving for a Bosendorfer for years. However, I recently auditioned the upper level Yamaha grands....you know.....they are right up there and in some ways better than the Bosendorfer! For composing, I used a sampled Bosendorfer for quite a while, but recently switched over to the sampled Yamaha concert grand.

::::: Opera :::::

here's one of my pieces
9MB mp3

http://jrdonohue.com/thepreludes/prelude1-fd.mp3

::::: Opera ::::

Another render with PosetteV3. This one by my nephew by marriage. DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Yamaha is my favorite favorite grand piano. All of them - even the little bitty ones. I was on tour in 1972 when I first encountered one on stage. I thought "what is this!?! a cheap Japanese grand piano!?! I'm supposed to play a Toyota!?!" Then I played it. Wow.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Just listened to your prelude - beautiful.

Did you decide which part frequency spectrum of the recording to discard by hand to compress the audio, or did you just use somebody else's MP3 software and just push "compress". If you did, then never mind what I said, that sucked and you suck for resorting to "instant compression" software. How can you call yourself an artist if you just let some mindless piece of code decide how to compress your music.

if you play the Rhapsody on a Bosendorfer, it is rumoured that the run in the first measure actually sounds just like a real clarinet smear
That made me laugh.

I actually have played it on a Bosendorfer. When I was at MIT I used to sneak into Kresge auditorium and play the one that's there. That thing is da-bomb.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Y'know.... I wonder if I could find some way of posting anonymously, because I'm likely to be lynched over this...... I believe in utility... if an app serves my purposes, I will use it... if only part of an app serves my purposes, I will use that. I see no reason not to use something that limps along at one thing, but is fantastic at something else. I have some apps that are nothing more than a means to port something from one to another, without data loss. Following the logic of people who will not use "those other" app's, I'd expect to hear, any day now, that there are no artists any more, since nobody uses rocks on walls to make pictures. If people are silly enough to believe that you should use no other app, then let them. I will happily continue to create what I envision using whatever fits the need. Lou.

"..... and that was when things got interestiing."

Well, let no one say bagginsbill does not air it out.

I am on LogicPro 7. I am deploying the compressors in Logic and also in Apple, but having trouble bouncing to my satisfaction....I am just learning this complex technology, regardless of my composing skills. So that is why I suck.

I'd send you the .aiff but I'm sure you'd trash that with all the vehemence of your mouth as well.

No problem.

Glad you liked the piece. And yes the 9' imperial grand Bosendorfer is the top.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - Y'know.... I wonder if I could find some way of posting anonymously, because I'm likely to be lynched over this...... I believe in utility... if an app serves my purposes, I will use it... if only part of an app serves my purposes, I will use that. I see no reason not to use something that limps along at one thing, but is fantastic at something else. I have some apps that are nothing more than a means to port something from one to another, without data loss. Following the logic of people who will not use "those other" app's, I'd expect to hear, any day now, that there are no artists any more, since nobody uses rocks on walls to make pictures. If people are silly enough to believe that you should use no other app, then let them. I will happily continue to create what I envision using whatever fits the need. Lou.

Actually.......I agree with what you've said here. I seriously doubt that anyone will lynch you for indicating that all of the various 3D apps are just tools in a toolbox. But I would add that those legitimate tools include Poser among them.

I like Poser largely because it is a fantastic aid to storytelling. Poser makes it possible to whip out scenes in short order, and to get a story done -- without having to spend a man-year of your personal time to do it.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

All those other apps are toys when it comes to shaders. Almost all those ridiculous snobs use UV mapped texture images, most of which are either photos they downloaded (didn't even photograph themselves), or they are seamless tiles they downloaded. Almost none of them bother making procedural textures like I do, from scratch, using only math. Even if they wanted to, those toy apps they use can't do full blown procedural shaders, like Poser.

There are lightwavers who make shaders. And, now, with the nodes, we're all getting real math conscious. Also, lots of folks use zbrush for texturing these days. And, why is using downloaded texture images/photos worse than using a whole premade model with textures and all the rest? I'm not getting that.

I like making my own stuff. I have for years. Unless you try it, you can't claim to know the satisfaction in it.

Quote - ::::: Opera :::::

I am listening to your piece as I type this, Opera. Excellent. I'm not a musician (my wife is -- her forté is voice -- she's a classically-trained soprano), but I have a deep appreciation for good music. I wouldn't mind hearing more from you.

Thanks!

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Hey, I listen to Bluegrass, too -- got any?

Your piece is great. I enjoyed it thouroughly.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Lets stick to topic folks and not hurl personal insults.

Thanks

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Quote - Would a remapped Posette contemplating her foot count for something?
DPH

It is a very nice foot.

Quote - > Quote - Would a remapped Posette contemplating her foot count for something?

DPH

It is a very nice foot.

Dave does wonderful work :)

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Off-topic or not, I LIKED that mp3, Opera. I play the piano as a hobby, but what you play there is way out my league. Excellent music.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

I didn't find Poser to be easy to learn. I could not even figure out how to keep hair from falling off Posette when I posed her and even how to move the people around. I dragged them by the white circle. I'm not good at reading manuals, though.

Excellent ivory tickling, opera.....

Poppi - you forgot to turn on your sarcasm decoder.

What I meant was the opposite of what I said - that is sarcasm. I was taking the other people's position and expanding it until it was ridiculous. My assertion that those who do not write real shaders makes them less manly was based on the ridiculous proposition that I like to write shaders so anyone who doesn't is a noob.

This is based on the expansion of the position I heard over there, which is basically if you don't model your objects yourself, you're a noob.

Of course there are people who don't just slap a texture on, but even if they do, that's not an indictment against their artistry.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

In case anyone had other occasions where they did not decode my sarcasm, when i said Operaguy's recording sucked, I meant it was great. When I said he should not have used software to record it, I was being sarcastic - because the point of these tools is to save time and not do things by hand, and to take advantage of the work of others to solve existing problems and build upon those solutions.

Frankly I don't see why they're so keen to model hands over and over again. They should start with the V4 model and then spend the same amount of time improving or varying the hands, instead of starting from scratch.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Wow svdl misunderstood too.

Did all you guys never read me before? Its like nobody ever knows when I'm kidding - ever. I'm constantly making jokes people.

I liked the recording very much. I thought everything about it was excellent. I do not expect anybody to write their own MP3 encoder. Geez.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Sorry Bagginsbill....no way for me to tell that was sarcasm...usually if Im pickin' at someone I have to put a smilie of some sort as I get misunderstood too My usual sarcastic smilie of choice is :tt2:

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

Quote - In case anyone had other occasions where they did not decode my sarcasm, when i said Operaguy's recording sucked, I meant it was great. When I said he should not have used software to record it, I was being sarcastic - because the point of these tools is to save time and not do things by hand, and to take advantage of the work of others to solve existing problems and build upon those solutions.

Whew, you had me worried there for a second... LOL
I have a BIG problem, I'm tone deaf. (can you fix that? Just kidding) Actually, I think I have a 'tonal dyslexia', I get them all jumbled up and out of order. Can only play a piano reading sheet music, and if I miss a note, I can't tell where to go to fix it, by hearing, I have to compare on sheet music what key I hit, vs. what I was suppsoed to hit. LOL (ruins the tempo giggle)
I got kicked out of piano lessons because of that. What a retard!

In bagginsbill's defense :tt2: even if he's being friendly with operaguy, phshaw! :tt2:, he did say LOL, and he's one of the friendliest most patiend guys here. Of most pleasing countenance (sorry folks, I'm reading Jane Austen at the moment, I just had to try that term on someone)

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wow bb, i really thought you were serious. no kidding.

so my apologies!

Not to say though....that you did not touch an issue - intended or not - about compression problems I am having. Well, now that that is solved and hoping you were not offended back, here are two more preludes.

Warning....the third one is tragic and dissonant in parts. It corresponds with the death of the music's 'persona's best friend.

http://jrdonohue.com/thepreludes/prelude2-fd.mp3

edited for bad link. this is the correct one for the third piece:
http://jrdonohue.com/thepreludes/prelude4-fd.mp3
::::: Opera :::::

I'll be sure to use smilies from now on. But even then I've been misunderstood before, despite the presence of the wink symbol ;-)

Conniekat8 - you made a very funny pun there. (perhaps you didn't even realize it?) A musical "retard" (accent on the second syillable) is when you slow down the tempo. :thumbupboth:

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

meh - I like your sense of humour Bb - it's a lot like mine I think (I'm told I'm way too sarcastic for my own good sometimes - usually in an appraisal at work O.O )

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Quote - Conniekat8 - you made a very funny pun there. (perhaps you didn't even realize it?) A musical "retard" (accent on the second syillable) is when you slow down the tempo. :thumbupboth:

ooooh, LOL, I knew about the musical retard, but it didn't make the connection to the pun as I was writing.
slaps forehead Dang, of all the times I'm actually trying to be funny....

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Also I realize now that I should have continued the sarcasm, and written my second point like this:

When I played Rhapsody in Blue, they booed me off the stage because I didn't write it myself and I didn't assemble the piano from hand whittled pieces of wood.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I'm known to use sarcastic humor myself from time to time. But I have to confess that I wasn't quite certain whether you were serious or not, bagginsbill. Based upon my reading of previous posts of yours, I was inclined to think that you were joking......but I wasn't 100% sure about that.

For you to make a comment like that and be serious about it.......would have struck me as being out of character for you.

That's alright -- I've been mis-read by others before, too. It's a hazard of this medium.

BTW - that 'use of smilie' thing...........? While inserting smilies into a post can sometimes help to convey the intended tone behind a message: I've also seen examples of smilies being thrown like rocks. So even a smilie doesn't always mean a friendly smile. It might represent a predator's grin. :biggrin:

sigh You can only do your best to be clear -- and deal with misunderstanding when it happens.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Hi Everyone

You know there are traditonal artists that don't think electronic art is art even if you use maya. So in essence the snobbery goes full circle.

Cheers,
Patorak

Some individuals claim that photography isn't art, either.

And yes: I've seen expressions of the idea that anything CG-related is fake. Not art at all. No matter which app was used to produce the image.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

SARCASM ALERT:

Painters who don't weave their own canvas, or don't make their own paint from dirt and acetone like Da Vinci did, but shudder BUY paint in a fricking store, are not artists.

If I see one more painting using that tired old Sennelier Alizarin Crimson #689 I'm going to puke.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Back when color photographic film first hit the market, it was considered by many to be nothing more than a gimmick. A passing fad which would quickly fade away -- leaving 'real' photography --which as everyone knows is done strictly in B&W -- to continue on forever.

It was a purist's-style attitude.

Purists are still with us today. Many of them can be found in the 3D/CG world. While others are found outside of that world, asserting that CG itself is a fake world. I suppose that CG can be such........but not in the way that the canvas purists mean. What the canvas purists fail to realize is that canvas-based art can be every bit as fake as any CG art. It's just that the canvas-based emptiness is done in a way that can sit in someone's attic, collecting dust many years later. At least you can hit the 'delete' key for CG-based emptiness.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

ROFLOL! And, If I see one more traditionalist paint a yellow square on a blue background and call it art, I'll ****

Ya know, I saw an image over at Yessy that was actually a red smudge in the middle of a canvas, and it 'supposedly' sold for over $20,000 :scared:

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

OMG, Jumpstartme2, I just blew coffee all over my monitor on that one!

Hey, I wonder if anyone has a red smudge prop?

Quote - Wow svdl misunderstood too.

Did all you guys never read me before? Its like nobody ever knows when I'm kidding - ever. I'm constantly making jokes people.

I liked the recording very much. I thought everything about it was excellent. I do not expect anybody to write their own MP3 encoder. Geez.

I understood :) You said it was beautiful, and I took it at face value that all the rest of that post was sarcasm based on the topic discussion of this thread.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Think that made ya spit coffee..check this one out {red smudge has apparently been taken off :(}

[LINK

](http://www.yessy.com/pihua/gallery.html?i=15453) And to further blow your mind.....{these have all sold/sold out} And I KNOW our artists on Rendo do wayyyyy better work than some of these characters}

LINK

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

heh..My Dad picked up a Bluthner that made a circuitous route from Postwar Germany. 'Sold' by a German Professor to an American General for 6 cartons of ciggarrettes (no, they're not addictive...;), flown back to the US, and turned up in a recording studio in El Paso. It was made in 1915, sounds great.

I have to make do with a Korg M1 (ancient synth with a sampled piano)...I don't fool anyone..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Quote - Of most pleasing countenance (sorry folks, I'm reading Jane Austen at the moment, I just had to try that term on someone)

dphoadley@Conniekat8'That was badly done, Emma, badly done indeed!' ;=)
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Jumpstartme2, I agree. That's why it breaks my heart when I see them go over to other CG sites and get disrespected for using Poser.

Pakled what's a Blunther?

So if what we make in Poser isn't really art, does that mean I'm not really camping these days because I sleep in my RV instead of my tent? :tt2:

Quote - ROFLOL! And, If I see one more traditionalist paint a yellow square on a blue background and call it art, I'll ****

Hey now!!!
Don't be dissin' yellow it's my favorite color! [says kitty with her tail all pufed up] ;)
And, and ..... my yellow is nicer then your yellow [stomping feet]

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Neil Armstrong wasn't a true explorer because he didn't live off the land when he walked on the moon?

Lewis and Clark didn't discover the gateway to the west because some Indian chick led them there? :tt2:

Columbus didn't discover America because the indians were already here. :tongue1:

It's all a matter of perspective isn't it?

@bagginsbill .. does it mean there is something wrong with me if I understood from the "get go" your humoristic sarcasms? :D And on the point of applications. I'll use what I'm comfortable working with and what I can get things accomplished with most easily. What's the saying "Work smart, not hard." Why work hard if you can work easy. But then again, I have met those who couldn't do anything easily if they had to. Whatever gets it done for you, works for me. :D And to quote Forrest Gump "That's all I've got to say about that."

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Consider me insane if you wish, but is your reality any better?

Quote - Neil Armstrong wasn't a true explorer because he didn't live off the land when he walked on the moon?

diet coke spew
ROTFL That's a good one!

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an indian chick? :lol: india is a subcontinent south of the himalayas :lol: ya mean a member of an indigenous tribe of the western hemisphere whose temporary "husband" was un homme franis but speaking of minimalist art (or abstract impressionism), some broad in new yawk has an allegedly fake drip painting by pollock that she bought fer 5 bucks. some bonehead offered her $2 millions for it, but she turned it down - not enuff money :lol:

"Did all you guys never read me before? Its like nobody ever knows when I'm kidding - ever. I'm constantly making jokes people."

heh..you need a few smileys in that post..I totaly misread it & missed the sarcasm :)...keep up the great work with the shaders though,your doing some awesome stuff..
..& I'll stick to my feeble photo based hand painted textures :P

Cheers
Stefan

Cg Society Portfolio

Quote - Jumpstartme2, I agree. That's why it breaks my heart when I see them go over to other CG sites and get disrespected for using Poser.

Pakled what's a Blunther?

I'm not Pakled, but a Bluthner is a German piano brand.

I know that Apple Studios had one in the late 60's--both "Let It Be" and "The Long and Winding Road" were recorded on a Bluthner, as was the the music for the movie "The Sting".

I've never played one, but I used to have fairly regular access to a 1906 vintage Steinway.

(edited to correct the studio where the orignal LIB recording was done).

That's some interesting way to react to Poser or the art created with it's help.
If I look at the 3D app related talking in work there is no looking down to the artists that can only do nice colorful models and animations of products or illustrations for theories while the scientists and engineers have to work many months without much more then a bunch of numbers as a result.
There's some bitching about to creative artists sometimes and some sort of fights over time at specific computing hardware but that's some work related issue that can't be applied for hobbyists.

Someone who creates a model or scene from scratch and uses photographies for textures has of course more work than someone who loads a model and some texture with a mouseclick.
The important point is that both methods are nothing more than work.
Different amounts of work but nothing artistic so far.
There is no logic behind the statement that placing some points in some virtual space is art.
There is no logic behind the statement that building complex shaders with DarkTree or Poser or whatever is art.
There is no logic behind stating that pressing a button of some camera or pressing some buttons on some musical instruments is art.There is also no logic behind the statement that using some brush with some color on some canvas is art.

Art can only be found in the result of such processes.
A process is not related to art and a process engineer is no artist.
Neither the process of creation, the result nor the interval from before creation to it's end are necessarily related to art.

Building an highway is work, modeling work, that does not lead to artistic expressions in landscapes.
What some viewer thinks and feels about this highway is relevant to estimate the highway's artistic value. The result can not be absolute.
Mixing worth with work is not rational.

The most likely cause to see one's own work as superior - in whatever way - over the work done by someone else with different tools is the inability to analyze what was done and what is the whole state of the viewed matter. (I don't mean if something is finished; that is never the case with anything. It's the state of the specific matter to the whole)
The amount of work is not a part of the set of art. It can be related to art but it never is a native part of the set. At least in mathematical logic.

The next reason for people mixing up art with work: they fail to see the set and what is part of it. They maybe feel better if they exclude this truth.
It's not nice to realize after maybe two weeks of modeling and shader work that all that is left is a damn single room and still dozens of errors. It alleviates the pain if one can include all the hard work in the resulting artwork.
It could be even worse if this person is a decent modeler that can with some precision depict what real world allows to exist and what nature created before him.
Maybe this person went to great lenghts to gather information about all the details of the object he wants to model. The person traveled to somewhere to take reference pictures, learned the used modeling app somewhat better to realize the wanted attributes and went then to model the object for some long time.
The resulting picture maybe shows nothing more than some rare physical effect. It's not art, but a somewhat precise depiction of reality.
Now a Poser user comes and clicks the library tab to load the figure that was made out before mentioned model and does some fancy renders with it...
And quite some people praise this persons artistic skills for the creative usage of someone's else model and textures...
To make it even worse the original creator get's a single line of credit that many will not even read and many other will have forgotten 5 minutes later.

Now there's another point why some Persons believe their 3D apps make them superior.
The only appreciation they get is that their chosen 3D app doesn't crash or that it doesn't react with error messages on the user's actions. A hobbyist will not get paid for his effort of learning any 3D app or achieving whatever horrible or good results with it. The only useful reciprocal exchange is that of appreciation by the viewers of this persons (art)work.
Now the up-dressers could endanger this source of appreciation that other human viewers are because they get it for much less work and this on less time. And human viewers usually prefer an steady input, like from some Poser user, over that sporadic and hard to estimate input of an serious modeler.

BTW, there's sometimes a similar behaviour between scientists and engineers and scientists and hobbyists. Science aims for precision while engineering can be done solely on approximations as long as the goal will be reached. For the reason of sacrificing precision of real world functionality sometimes a scientist looks down on an engineer. While a scientist often has to study longer and more, it doesn't always enable him to create some device.
But it's also common that for example an chemist tells his chemical engineers what to do or what is OK. Physicists can be even worse due to the broad spectrum they studied about.

I use a Korg A5, but that is my old muti foot peddle for my guitars. I'm rebuilding a old Steinway upright. Hammers missing and a few keys stick real bad, my guess would be beer, but it is all fixable with time that I find hard to come by these days.

As the original topic. I consider Poser as another tool in my tool kit. I find many of those that knock Poser have never really tried it. A lot of the distain is rumour and hearsay and the elitist sheep that just repeat what other software peers say without question.

Thier lose. I would never pass up a tool that makes my life easier evern if it only does one thing , if it does it well.

I fail to see the point of defending Poser against Max/Maya. They simply don't compare..... funny thing around here is we all stand in awe when DAZ or anyone else creates a new figure for us to use. Did they use Poser to create the figure? No, they used Max or Maya or perhaps lightwave to do so. The people using Max or Maya have every reason to look down on Poser if they want to do so. To them Poser is a mere toy. Dressing Vicky in Poser or creating 'vicky' from scratch in Max/Maya is a whole different thing.

The only reason some around here get offended is because they just refuse to see what they are..... grown ups (some still kids perhaps) playing with a digital Barbie and Ken. That's all we are people.... Poser compared to Max/Maya is only a toy, but a cool toy.

Why should they stand on awe of a render created with Poser knowing how it was made? A good number of those people creates figures from scratch (try doing that with Poser) and yet we want their respect when we merely dressed a puppet we didn;t even create ourselves.

Get real..... those people have every right to look down on Poser, the true snobs and elitist are found around here.... Poser users wanting to be on the same pedestal as Max/Maya users, trying to be something they're not and never will be. Get real, know your place, you're just using a toy that will never earn the respect of a real 3D artist.

As for art...... click a few buttons and call it art.... any fool can do it. That's not art. Sad to see that you people all get worked up about something you're not.

For me Poser is a tool that gets me from A to B quickly. I'm a Cinema4D users also, creating my own models. Working with Poser and working with Cinema4D is something else, it just doesn't compare. With Cinema4D my imagination and skill is the limit.... with Poser whatever I can buy is the limit. I don't need skill to use Poser, I do need skill to use Cinema4D. Anyone can use Poser and create something good with it. If you've got enough money to spare you can do cool stuff with Poser, even if you're not an artist or lack skills. Try that with Cinema4D, it won't work.

Last remark...... as far as I'm concerned you can defend Poser all you want, but once those people look at the Poser galleries here, they most likely roll around in laughter. I as a Poser users still do. To them all that Poser is good for, when looking at the galleries, is to satisfy your sexual/sensual obsessions. And mos tof it is done pretty bad also. As long as the galleries around here are full of the badly composed created in 5 minutes nviatwas renders, how will Poser ever earn a good name? When I first looked at the Poser galleries, I seriously wondered if anything good could be created with Poser. Poser is used to create so much garbage that it's no wonder it has such a bad name. I a Max/Maya users looks at the galleries here, he's most likely to see junk as far as he/she's concerned. Badly put together images, the same figures over and over again. Total lack of imagination, skill and expertise. I don't blaim them they think Poser is a toy, 90% of the galleries sure give that impression.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

'Working with Poser and working with Cinema4D is something else, it just doesn't compare. With Cinema4D my imagination and skill is the limit.... with Poser whatever I can buy is the limit. I don't need skill to use Poser, I do need skill to use Cinema4D.'

d**phoadley@aeilkema
**I think that you are confusing Craft for Art. There is a difference Cabinet Making is a skill, but Photography is an Art.
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Wasn't reffering to art there :-)

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Yes, but the rest of us are.
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Sorry but that's a bit pathetic..... pick out a little bit of what I've said and claiming I'm not talking about art also and disregarding the rest I've said. That particular part wasn't refering to art and not everything being said in this thread was refering to art either and you didn't comment in your a childish way on those statements at all.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

You're talking about craftmanship, pure and simple. I grew up in a boatyard in Florida, I 've done carpentry in my time, and I've scraped and painted bottoms. I was hard work, but I wouldn't call it art For a time, I was independantly employrd as a silversmith and jeweller. I made some pretty nifty stuff in both silve and gold, sawing, shaping, sodering, and polishing, -but while I think I was a moderately skilled craftsman, I wouldn't call that artwork either.

I just finished remapping PosetteV3 and am in the process of remapping Dork, the P4 Catrsuit, and V4.1. Again, I would call any of this art, Craftmanship yes, but not art. On the other hand, I worked for two hours, at least in composing, posing, and rendering the 'Nude Erasian Contemplating Her Foot, ' that I priorly posted here in this thread (Plus another Hour and a half of postwork). That I DO consider art, and not just because of the time and effort I put inot it.
DPH

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

:lol:
Seriously, what attitude would that be? That's far beyond ignorance already.
Is Posering the 8th deadly sin?

I can use Max / Maya / XSI somehow but don't look down on the users of these apps just because they can't code their apps, dunno much (if anything) about semiconductor physics (to understand their computers) and can not express themselves as fluently in math as in graphics.
I can also use Poser somehow but can't find the logic behind some valuing of one app over another.

For an hobbyist it's about the fun in the first. For an professional it's about productivity and possibilities with certain applications.That application A does not allow for x,y,z while app B does does not make B better if the goal Z can be reached with both apps. Z is to have fun.
That the overly professional Maya artist that was born with a Wacom have no idea what is involved in constructing the aircraft which he just designed does not degrade the application nor the artist.

Many Poser pictures are done out of fun, not to be memorized as a stage of human evolution.
Max / Maya is used a lot in advertising, does this contribute to it's possibilities to create art or does this elevate the few specialists of these apps over any other human?
Will they be granted a place next to the feet of those who invented and refined the computer for their ability to use a tiny part of this kind of machine's capabilities?

Oh, and must I look down on those who use Windows and windows based apps (like Max)?
Or do I have to visit CG forums about Max / Maya art and tear the pictures and their creators apart for violating nature laws and not sticking to long known facts.

Guess I go now watching some of nature's unique creations again. - Including boobs.
At least it builds from scratch with single atoms and never the same creation twice.
Odd, that nature doesn't look down on me for all my shitty low learning speed, scientific approximations, assumptions, lack of understanding and need to see a nviatwas from time to time. And for using Windows to run ... cough ... Poser...

Dave, you are so right! What you do is real art and so much work! You are from Florida??

Quote - Dave, you are so right! What you do is real art and so much work! You are from Florida??

Originally yes. I was born in a small town overlooking the Gulf of Mexico, on Florida's west coast, named Englewood. It's somewhere between Sarasota and Tampa (if I remember right). But I grew up in Daytona Beach on Florida's east coast.
Just three weeks before my 20th birthday, following my Zionist inclinations, I immigrated to Israel, converted to Orthodox Judaism, and have lived here ever since.
David P. Hoadley

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

Hmmm - tools of the trade eh ?

One of my hobbies is Calligraphy. Now when you are scribing, you have a very wide choice of implements, some you have to make yourself (quills for e.g - you cut your own, or bamboo) so does that make something created with one of those pens somehow "better" than one created with a premade metal nib ? Should I look down on people who use metal nibs exclusively because they haven't hammered it out of sheet, shaped and gilded it ?

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All in all, the Big Question is always the same:

What Is Art? Visual Art in particular?

and for me... just for me... just an Humble Personal Opinion.... Art is when I look at a picture... and my jaw drops down and my eyes fill with tears of joy.

How was the picture made? With Poser? With a pencil? With Maya? With a photocamera? I don't care. It brings joy and awe to me, so it's Art.

Everything else are technical details.

Giorgio

giorgio_2004 here, ksabers on XBox Live, PSN and everywhere else.

Note: My specific objection was the following:

a veteran 3DBuzz person dissed the Poser tools. He was trying to disparage VRay over (his favorite) MentalRay by insinuating VRay was "poser-like" since all you did was push a button and the render popped out.

I specifically elucidated the complex tools we now have in Poser7 only for the purpose of disabusing the person of the notion that Poser was a toy with only one button.

By the way, several of the 3DBuzz people correctly understood. While they still probably feel the entire Poser universe is beneath them, at least they now know Poser "needs to be tweaked" in order to achieve something advanced. I showcased and advanced render to illustrate this.

::::: Opera :::::

I think we're getting a little off point here. The question "what is art" is not the central theme of the problem I see, but people keep making it about that. Here are some direct quotes that hopefully will make clear why there is cause to cry foul:

**main reason that ppl don't like poser is that it only use model import, cos you are not making the art it self but using coustem build model that is not yours

most CG artest who have learned Max, Maya or XSI would trun there nose up at Poser

you might want to consider messiah for animation. It's better than MB (imo) and cheaper. That way you can take the money saved and spend it on altering other people's work and saying it's your own art.

Me personally, and this is just my opinion and not any definite truth, do not think that an image like the girl where the model is pre made by someone else is as much art as if someone would have modeled, textured, and posed her himself.

I just like my work to be mine, not a modification of someone else's. I don't trace other people's drawings and rearrange them to make my 2d pictures, so why should I with my 3d ones?

I would take the rankest beginner's work in Max or Maya or MS Paint over yet another Poser render any day.
**In other words, the theme over and over is that if you don't model, you are not an artist, you are a plagiarist, which is a ridiculous point of view. And since Poser can't be used to model (mostly) then it everything you render in it is, by definition, not art. That is the absurd proposition that I find objectionable. I don't mind if you want to call me a technician, as I've never claimed to be an artist. When my gallery post gets a comment "beautiful art" - I shrug it off as a matter of opinion that is pleasing or displeasing as you see fit, but not relevent. What I care about is that my shader is better than it used to be after 100 hours of technical work, and I'm happy if somebody else uses my shader to make art in Poser. Similarly, if I were a modeler, and I made a cool model and somebody else used it in a movie, I'd be very pleased instead of calling the movie producer a plagiarist.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I can make the teapot in Max, LOL!

Lightwave has the teapot too.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

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Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

yes, that's the point I made over there bb, that a case could be made that modeling is simply one "station" in a long pipeline, and I listed the stations (later lengthened by Dale.) Further reality check on the inflated notion of modeling being 'all that?'.....Shouldn't they be working with their hands sculpting objects in clay with no intermediary? (and then they could call in the technicians to scan it.)

I was exaggerating to make a point, not that modeling is not important and a highly demanding skill/craft/art, but that other stations in the pipeline were no less worthy of the same status as modeling.

A sculptor, or a digital modeller, must be brilliant in conveying the human form in an abstracted medium. So also must an animator be able to capture the subtleties and nuance of human movement in keyframes.

::::: Opera :::::

you know.. I'd love to see how they do if they did'nt have Max or Maya or XSI or Lightwave..

how they would do with what I started out with.

notepad.

yup. notepad. writing a program that then runs in POVRay. you see, they've created nothing with those fancy programs.. they've just pushed buttons and let the software do the modeling for them ;)

Ask them about 'motion capture'. Isn't that a form of 'plagiarism'? They certainly aren't creating the animated motions themselves - they are recording someone elses motions and applying them to a rigged figure. How dare they! It is used in just about EVERY 3D CG movie out there. Plagiarists! ;)

What? There's something different between using stock figures and using stock motions? Yeah, right....

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I work on both ends of the spectrum. I use Poser, bryce, carrara, vue, lightwave and Max.
which onbe I use depends on what I'm doing and what result I want.
I can't do organic modeling, so Poser is still indespensible for me if I want animals or peopel in my renders.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

wheatpenny (or anyone)
I know Poser assets can be brought into Max. But what about dynamic hair? If I bring a strand hair prop into Max, does Max know what to do with it using its own hair sim engine? (notice I did not ask if the actual Poser hair simulation could be moved intact into Max and then rendered....I did not hope for that!)

::::: Opera :::::

No, Poser dynamic hair is not exportable. You have to use the transmapped hair or make dynamic hair in the other app

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

anyone here have opinions about the power of Max for these two tool categories:

Max native hair dynamics (not extra-cost plugin) vs poser hair room and simulation
Max native animation tools (no Motion Builder) vs Poser's animation features

::::: Opera :::::

I don't to much animation or dynamic hair, so I can't offer you anything there.

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

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Quote - SARCASM ALERT:

Painters who don't weave their own canvas, or don't make their own paint from dirt and acetone like Da Vinci did, but shudder BUY paint in a fricking store, are not artists.

Well, Da Vinci's assistants made the paint. I paint gaming miniatures -- mostly for gaming purposes (I used to be big into Ancients), but a lot of times just cause they are cool figures. (Which is how I justify the non-fantasy figures, usually). I'm probably in the low 90% percentile of figure painters, and can approach 95% on a figure I really like. (This is not a great accomplishment, there are a lot of crappy painters out there. I am miles behind someone as good as paintrix http://www.wegotgame.net/jen/main.html, but I sometimes have won a 2nd or 3rd place at a gaming convention. I don't make my own figures (although I sometimes modify them.) As a matter of fact, some of the best sculptors of figures are no better painters than me, one of them is actually a pretty bad painter and has other people paint figures for his web-page.

Quote -

The only reason some around here get offended is because they just refuse to see what they are..... grown ups (some still kids perhaps) playing with a digital Barbie and Ken. That's all we are people.... Poser compared to Max/Maya is only a toy, but a cool toy.

Some people have done some pretty interesting stuff using Barbie, Ken, G.I. Joe, and various (mostly Japanese) action figures. There's someone who photographed a vampire story using a total of about fifteen dolls, mostly with home-made/modified costumes, and home-built sets. It came to about eighty photos. Someone else recreated Apollo 13 using GI joes and a home-build Apollo CM and LM interior. Someone else created a very lovingly built tribute to the Challenger crew based on their official crew photograph using a combination of G.I. Joes and Barbies -- he modified the heads to look like the actuall astronauts.

I'm interested to see the spectacular work aeilkema does in Maya/Max - or whatever other application he/she creates art in so much better than the crap he/she sees here in the galleries. Do they let Poser users view those galleries?

I wonder if any of those people snubbing poser have ever contemplated the possibility that some artists actually use Poser for its originally intended purpose? Or the notion that some of those pieces of "crap art" are currently sketched out and hanging in galleries as we speak?

Speaking of playing with Barbies. My late great great great grandmother had quite a collection. Not only did she have a collection, my great grandfather built her the mother of all barbie houses - which she spent the last 20 or so years of her life arranging decorations in. To myself and a museum here in Illinois that really constituted a great piece of artwork. She has been dead many years now - but people still find themselves in awe over her **BARBIES.
**I'm curious if they paint thier own textures? And how real is that. I challenge ANY Maya/Max arteest to a RL knitting, sewing, crocheting, quilting competition and well see how they can stand up to the REAL thing.

I am: aka Velocity3d

Quote - Note: My specific objection was the following:

a veteran 3DBuzz person dissed the Poser tools. He was trying to disparage VRay over (his favorite) MentalRay by insinuating VRay was "poser-like" since all you did was push a button and the render popped out.

I specifically elucidated the complex tools we now have in Poser7 only for the purpose of disabusing the person of the notion that Poser was a toy with only one button.

By the way, several of the 3DBuzz people correctly understood. While they still probably feel the entire Poser universe is beneath them, at least they now know Poser "needs to be tweaked" in order to achieve something advanced. I showcased and advanced render to illustrate this.

The problem I see with the whole thing here is that you are trying to respond to someones crappy emotional response with logic. Doesn't work that way. If someone is determined to look down his nose at something (which is an emotion, rather then fact), there's no fact in the world that will make him say, oh, you're right.
The issue is that some people using higher apps probably don't feel sufficiently appreciated, and get jealous when they see applications that some of them 'think' take less effort get attention.
There's also been many instances where unrefined poser renderings have made their way to more sophisticated galleries, and people who made them got all uipset because of the negative response they got, when they insisted their piece was woreth more then it was.

There are people with bad tempers, void of manners and unrealistic view on things everywhere. Even among artists or highly skilled people. Just because someone is a good artist, soent mean they have pleasant social skills, or just because someone has good technical 3D skills, doesn't mean they are capable of producing a visually pleasing piece.

It's not about the applications nearly as much as it is about personalities. There are bad apples and good apples on both sides.

I'm a good one, just ask me :tt2:

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I challenge ANY Maya/Max arteest to a RL knitting, sewing, crocheting, quilting competition and well see how they can stand up to the REAL thing.

OOPS....I'm a lw user. But, hey, I do all that stuff (except the knitting)pretty well, still, though I don't have the time for it of late. My grandmother was a dollMAKER....she taught me a good deal. I've never had a Barbie :*0 Maybe, that last bit sums up this whole thread. Some make the dolls, others collect them for show.

When I was small I created many things with legos, and erector sets which I alone had imagined. I built these things because I was young, and it pleased me. I don't feel they were any less genuine because I didn't create the plastic or steel that went into producing them. I don't feel that the paintings I've done in my lifetime are any less genuine because I didn't collect the ingrediants that went into the paint, or the paper. I don't imagine a sculptor feels his work to be less valid because he didn't make the marble he brought to life, and I'm quite sure the animators at Pixar don't feel their work isn't as good as the amateur who makes all his own models, as hey haven't the time, the making of the models is the modelers job, the rigging the riggers, etc*.* I don't see the logic behind their argument. Perhaps they are Nihilists.

My latest shaders - the eyes. Not art of course but it's not plagiarism either.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I love your shaders. I wonder if I could simulate them in lw. (Poser frustrates me, too much lookin for stuff.)

Quote - My latest shaders - the eyes. Not art of course but it's not plagiarism either.

Oh, yeah, but did you invent the math you're using??? :tt2:

Otay, kidding aside, you're friggin awesome!

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Thanks Poppi.

Why don't you make a new runtime and put just my shaders in there? Then they're easy to find :biggrin:

Is there a spec somewhere for lw shader technology? I probably could make a version of matmatic (shader generator I made for Poser) that would work in other apps too, as long as the app has math nodes or equivalent.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

as long as the app has math nodes or equivalent.....yeah, lw has math nodes. that's why i didn't catch your "sarcasm". I am lost with the danged things. let alone when to input as a vector, or otherwise. I think I might be able to copy and tweak your node setups, though and come up with something. I've been trying my best to do a decent sss simulation and looks as if you are headed in that direction as well.

I'm confused. I was not being sarcastic about making shaders for other apps. I just don't have the other apps. But if I had a spec for how the shaders are stored in files, I could make them and you could load them. Also, where there are equivalent operations on a given subset of functionality, I could generate shaders for other apps from the same scripts i use in poser. For example, I bet I could make my cloth shaders for lw because it's all math.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I bet I could make my cloth shaders for lw because it's all math. YUP....but where might I find these "specs" you need to do this?

Ever thought of doing shaders for Vue ??? I'm pretty sure that has math nodes (I've been too scared to look so far)

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bagginsbill, a shader generating tool for other applications would be wonderful. As of right now, importing Poser figures with procedural shaders into Vue means recreating similar shaders in Vue, which has a shader tree structure similar to Poser.
Similar, but not identical.

It should be possible to make a shader converter between Poser and Vue. I'd pay for that, so would quite a few others I think.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

Converting the basics would be really easy I bet. Some nodes wouldn't translate because they have no direct equivalent I suppose, but you could get close. For example, Poser's implementation of Cellular is probably not exactly the same as others. If you guys want to give me some pointers to any docs I could read on the file formats and how the nodes work in these other systems I'd be happy to look into it. Also, giving me samples of basic shaders so I can verify that I'm replicating the same contents would be good.

I've also thought about getting started on writing a Poser shader-to-matmatic converter - basically take any existing shader made however you made it and de-compile it into a matmatic script. Then if I had compilers for other engines, you could just point it at a Poser shader and it would de-compile to matmatic and then compile to lw or vue.

Poppi - the Loom script I posted in the RDNA node cult has all the math for calculating weave patterns, applying multiple thread colors, making plaids, doing the micro-thread pattern, loose fibers, distorted weaves, etc. It is expressed in matmatic mathematical notation - that gets compiled into a Poser shader tree automatically. I could compile it into other systems pretty easily.

Loom Script
Plaids Using the Loom
Making your own weave patterns
Downloading weave patterns
Loom showing off

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

And max and cararra and cinema and maya, IIRC they all have the ability to do complex procedural shaders. I know for sure Max can, I used them a fair amount, and it's capable of all that Poser can do and then some.

I'm VERY humbled though with Bagginsbills tenacity to put them all together. I'm not lacking in math, but I'm very much lacking in patence to go in as much depth and detail with proceduaral shaders as Bill does. I have attention span sufficient for a 3-node wooden texture! Would gladly pay money for a set of them for Max or Carara, or Vue.

In the world of higher end apps, it is often said that there is no way to come up with TRULY realistic tectures unless photos and image maps are used.
I only partially agree with that philosopy. I do see the image maps being a lot more economical for certain things when it comes to computing power and when it comes to nabbing the right set of formulas to simulate something realistic. This takes a LOOOT more time then taking a photo or paint a texture and map it. Plus, it takes someone with solid math skills, and someone solid in math AND art is a much rarer find then someone skilled in just one or the other.

More practical way... yes, in some, or even a lot of cases I can see image mapping being more practical.
When it comes to 'The only way to achieve reality' statement, from technical and scientific point of view, I don't buy. I'd love to see someone show it off.

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ah hah!!!! just looked at your loom script....basically, a "node" in lw is a text file like that saved as a .nod file......very cool...thanks for the link. I think that could easily be tweaked into a .nod file.

Bagginsbill... check this out :) just FYI:
http://www.3dtotal.com/ffa/tutorials/max/joanofarc_p2/texture_skin_procedural1.asp

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I gave a bad link - here's a correction

Downloading weave patterns

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

bagginsbill you are a genius.

BTW Here's where you can find the shader nodes in Lightwave 9.2

Side note: Lightwave now has a 30 day trial version

I'll second the Vue Infinite shader creation! And the converter scheme. Of course that would probably infuriate texture artists, as it would be using math tricks to replace =real= textures...but considering the memory savings shaders have over hi res texturing, it would open the door to more complex scenes. Oh, And :p

I don't believe texture maps will be replaced. I do believe that they will evolve into gradient overlays though. Hmm, now if we could do something about the rigging...

Heeeee, this thread is turning into a technical discussion! I love that.

Texture maps based on photos have their problems.
In a render, you want to be able to control diffuse and specular components of the material, and also translucency, subsurface scattering, bump/displacement etc. etc. The trouble is that some of these components are independent of the direction of the lights (diffuse, displacement), and some of them are highly dependent on the direction of the lights (specular, SSS), some of them are also dependent on other objects in the scene (reflection/refraction). ANd a texture map based on a photo incorporates all those components in a single image.
Which means that a photo base texture that has not been manipulated is only truly realistic when the lighting conditions and other objects in the 3D scene match the lighting conditions and other objects of the setting where the photo was taken.
To separate the different components of the material, so that the texture map can be used in other (3D) settings, the photo must be edited, which is an art and craft all by itself.

A Poser-based example: many hair textures have baked-in highligts. Which makes creating realistic renders virtually impossible - the highlights almost never match the lighting in the scene. Reflection maps on corneas and eyes have the same problem.

And then there's memory. Texture maps take up lots of memory, procedural shaders use far, far less.
For human skin it should be possible to take a fairly low resolution grayscale texture map, and use that map to drive several procedural shaders for diffuse, specular, bump/displacement, SSS etcetera. While not perfectly realistic, it could be a very good approximation that doesn't consume tons of memory.

Damn real life. I just can't find the time to experiment and build such a shader!

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

is that Pop pop Poppi? land sakes, it's been quite some time since I seed dat name...;)

The nice thing about modelers in general, is doing things you don't find somewhere else. Texturers (not that I've used the dozens I've actually downloaded..;) are handy too.

I just treat all this as a toolbox. Some programs do things better than other, so they get tossed in the mix.

It does tickle me that no one has 'left this alone'...as we're on page 5 of this...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Maybe if we just keep nudging about improvements in rigging, and some kind of legacy rig to prevent voiding all existing content, who knows..... Seriously, how difficult would it be to implement a rigging modification that allowed for the kinds of actual joint action in nature? Even if some kind of hard coding was needed, just having the knees and elbows able to translate over the femur/humerus end would solve so many of the joint issues that exist. Some form of softbody dynamics would be well worth it as well, even if it were limited to joints and major mass like breasts and buttocks and shoulders in men. And traditional P4 texture maps do need replacing, or at least seriously diminshing, with shader tech. the 4000x4000 body texture alone is a hog. Never mind the face, separate eyes, in some cases genital maps. As long as we don't have 64 bit addressing throughout the entire program, we still have to live in that 2 gig memory space. And most of the tricks the pros use to deal with RAM limits are either simply ignored, or treated as if they only apply to the big apps. It's the same with lighting. How many times have you seen someone fiddlefart around with numerous infinite floods, trying to simulate sunlight through a window, instead of using a gel of slats and a single broad focus spot? I mean lightboxes are still used in actual movies as a cost saving technique, and none the wiser....

Hey operaguy

Next time you go over to 3d buzz, see how many of the modelers there use FaceGen instead of building a head poly by poly. It'll shut 'em up.

Hi Dale B

Jane 1's rigging is going to have 60 bones give or take, for the body.

Quote - Which means that a photo base texture that has not been manipulated is only truly realistic when the lighting conditions and other objects in the 3D scene match the lighting conditions and other objects of the setting where the photo was taken.
To separate the different components of the material, so that the texture map can be used in other (3D) settings, the photo must be edited, which is an art and craft all by itself.

Yeah, tell me about it!
It's no joke working the images into decent texture maps! Luckily for the moment I prefer to paint to crunching numbers (which I get to do for work). Still, those whom visit the few images in my gallery are likely to notice that almost all of my textures there are procedural.

Back to image maps, I thend to create my own, either trapsing around neigborhood taking photos, or scanning in found objects. I tend to try and pick spots with very flat even lighting, so the texture can be lit in the scene.

Then there's UV mapping.... eh! Another can of worms ;)

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Quote - Hi Dale B

Jane 1's rigging is going to have 60 bones give or take, for the body.

Hmmmmmm....... Sounds like it will be interesting to see where the bones are and what they do..... :)

as an aside, an human foot has dozens of bones. I'll be interested in seeing the final jane 1, anyway. keep us posted on yer progress, pat. did somebody mention human skin textures? ISTR quinlor had a tutorial on the little-used poser "skin" node.

16 are nulls ( goal objects )

HI Miss Nancy

Do you have a link to ISTR quinlor's tutorial?

I'm a longtime Max user & find it far too time consuming. Max is great for modeling but not so much on artwork. Animation's are awesome but difficult to master on it. I prefer Poser for animation, you can make the figures talk, in Max you really can't without jumping through hoops and spending hours on end trying to get it to work.

patorak, I will be visiting over there again and will make use of what you suggested, if any contention arises. I am not really out to start a big hullabaloo, which is evident in my fairly gentlmanly way of confronting them. Did you notice that no one responded to my charge that many modlers don't bother to rig their mesh....just pull it into shape and begin painting then go straight to lighting and render?

Who is Jane and should I prepare to fall in love with her?

::::: Opera :::::

Max native hair dynamics (not extra-cost plugin) vs poser hair room and simulation
3dmax comes with Joe Alters 'Shave & Haircut' so for all things hairy your well catered for

http://www.vfxworld.com/?atype=articles&format=rss&id=2500

http://images.autodesk.com/adsk/images/3dsmax04.jpg
(btw,when you buy max you'll get a bunch of turbosquid vouchers,so you'll no doubt end up getting a couple plugins anyway)

Max native animation tools (no Motion Builder) vs Poser's animation features

Poser is very basic in comparison to the animation toolset 3dmax offers,for some people that basic toolset is fine but if your serious about animation then you cant go wrong with 3dmax,character studio,crowd systems..biped..total rigging control..it's an awesome(& very big) app.I've used it for several years & there's still parts I havent yet touched on

XSI might be worth a look too,I know a few 3dMax users have switched to xsi for the animation options

Dajadues..have you tried Voice-O-Matic?

Cg Society Portfolio

Thanks Stonemason. That is exactly what I was looking for.

lol @ Pakled: is that Pop pop Poppi? land sakes, it's been quite some time since I seed dat name...;)

Yes, it's me. I still lurk, but don't Pop around too much. I actually spend more time modelling and all the rest than I do chatting, anymore. Lightwave killed me for forum life, I guess.

Attached Link: http://www.quinlor.de/tutorials/tattoo.html

pat, it was a tattoo tute. it shows the skin node without explanation. however, to my surprise, the skin node is actually covered in the manual.

Quote - Speaking of playing with Barbies. My late great great great grandmother had quite a collection. Not only did she have a collection, my great grandfather built her the mother of all barbie houses - which she spent the last 20 or so years of her life arranging decorations in. To myself and a museum here in Illinois that really constituted a great piece of artwork.

Would this be the Colleen Moore Faire Castle at the Chicago Museum of Science and Industry? That, and the U-505 are my favorite exhibits there.

Excellent! Thanks Miss Nancy, I've got it book marked. I like Quinlor's tut From Wings3d to Poser figure too.

operaguy, the jane thread is over in the developers forum

Thought I would make up this for our friends over at the Buzz.

Poser - so simple even a caveman could do it....

Quote - Poser - so simple even a caveman could do it....

OMG too freakin funny.... can't stop laughing giggles

That is such an awesome pic... Mind if I add it to my faves? LOL

...No seriously... You gonna upload that? I so love it :P

I haven't uploaded in a week because I can't sit long at the PC and comment. Had a little horse vs knee accident.

Hilarious, drifterlee.

Here in Los Angeles there is buzz -- i kid you not -- that they are going to make a sitcom from the "caveman" character.

::::: Opera :::::

LOL, Too funny!

I think we can settle this once and for all.

We change the name here to be RENDEROSITY- The Craftspersons Community.
If some ART dribbles out, well that's just dandy.

Of course the few months after the changeover, we might see questions of using Miki2 and interfacing her with the new power saws that come out, but I think we can weather the transition.
The advert bumps from ACE Hardware and Home Depot (and places like these) will help defray some costs and will provide new inspirations to the noobs as well as the old timers.

"You CAN render it, we can help (when we are not trying to do art that is!)"

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

Hey, I heard Sears bought Renderosity, and we are going to have Craftsmans tools here for sale as well. My husband will be thrilled, LOL!

Quote - Hey, I heard Sears bought Renderosity, and we are going to have Craftsmans tools here for sale as well. My husband will be thrilled, LOL!

**
dphoadley@drifterlee**
More likely he'll be drilled! ;=D
DPH
PS: Will there be any discounts for purchases in Israeli Shekels? The US Doller-Shekel exchange rate has been droping lately.

STOP PALESTINIAN CHILD ABUSE!!!! ISLAMIC HATRED OF JEWS

"Dajadues..have you tried Voice-O-Matic?"

Not yet stonemason.
** I haven't invested in Max much since
I fully switched to Poser this past year for animations & posing.
I'm getting some job offers for animations so will be sticking to Poser for that. :)

**

I love to beat a dead horse, let me tell you.

As I said, I'm not really into making models - it's not fun for me. Shaders are fun and I think its just as cool to focus on this as to focus on modeling.

This "model" is a work in progress. It is just 4 Poser Box primitives. I like to work with boxes and spheres, and don't feel it's plagiaristic to use them just because a BILLION others just like it have been made from scratch.

Yet it has geometry that is more interesting than that. It's done with procedural displacement. And also the wood grain is 100% procedural. Notice that no two places look alike. I can't stand it when people just slap a texture file onto every face of a piece of furniture and you can see all the repetition. That's lame.

I still have a couple bugs to work out with the shader - I got multiple boards in a direction I did not intend to. But these issues will be worked out shortly, and then I'll post it for you all to download. Then you can do your "Poser" "art" and tell a story about illicit office sex if you like :biggrin:

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I am being 3/4 serious.

Craftsman/woman/person works.
We craft our scenes and render them.
There are different levels to beign a craftsperson. You have your really experienced craftsfolk and the noobs.

There is the really excellent craftswork. It becomes art when the critical masses proclaim it so.

The stuff of the noob, is also art because as some defintions have it, it causes an emotional reaction, at least to the noob craftsperson (and their friends, family, sychophants, thralls, et al)

Hence the galleries. It is all craftswork, but art to some.

You have noobs who can do "Art" because they "get" the tools with which they craft their renders. You have some "experienced" craftsfolk whos craftwork has not risen to the level of "art", despite the amount of time with the tools. They have not advanced their craftmanship. it is still "hobby".

When put in these terms, we can avoid the "ART" arugments.
With CRAFT(man/woman/person/folk)SHIP the modeller and the Poser user can be put ont he same playing field: How well do you handle your craft?

"Few are agreeable in conversation, because each thinks more of what he intends to say than that of what others are saying, and listens no more when he himself has a chance to speak." - Francois de la Rochefoucauld

Intel Core i7 920, 24GB RAM, GeForce GTX 1050 4GB video, 6TB HDD space
Poser 12: Inches (Poser(PC) user since 1 and the floppies/manual to prove it!)

i yi yi yi BB that is wonderful.

You know, I've been meaning to ask you about something:
In general most 3D props are sharp-edged; naturally, because they are math with precision. Left like that, they have little 'realism.'

When you 'texture" them, they don't always loose their sharp edges. More or less in harmony with the shader you posted for fake AO in corners of rooms.....what is your general shader approach to rounding off the edges, or even introducing noise along the edge, of things such as tables and boxes, etc.

The image above is very pleasing....the edges are pretty sharp, but that sort of cabinet would have sharp edges. Just wonderful work and -- as i pointed out over at 3DBuzz -- a shader engineer is an artist.

::::: Opera :::::

I'd love to have that wood shader when it's done!!

Someone just released a Cinema 4D plugin called "EdgeShade" which procedurally softens the sharp edges associated with 3D geometry. I like the idea as modeling the softer edges can be a big increaser of size.

** I wonder if something similar could be done with Poser shader nodes... hmmmm **
(do not read that, bagginsbill) ;)

Robert

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I've seen people get distracted, and then turn around and run into desks like that -- the kind with sharp edges. It's all quite amusing.

It takes a true craftsman to produce the right type of desk/cabinet for such a purpose.

BTW - the woodgrain on real-world modern desks often isn't real. In order to fit properly into a 3D 'representation of reality' for the average office environment today -- those shaders need to look like plastic-simulated woodgrain. Or perhaps veneer over presswood. Real wood is too expensive. Not to mention heavy and hard to move around.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I have a real wood huge executive desk that is old. I refinished it by hand. It was so heavy and big one leg broke through the floor or our trailer. Luckily, the desk made it home safe and sound.

Oh, I have a very plush office. My PC sits on top of what I call a "church table" -- the type of 8' long pinch-your-fingers folding thing that one would often see used at church picnics and such. My PC's at my home office are sitting on top of chuch tables, too. And I'm surrounded by a cubicle made out of pegboard. So I need plastic-simulated woodgrain shaders in order to feel like I'm being immersed in the really real reality of the real world. Or at least my experience of it, anyway. So what I'm suggesting is a 3D simulation of a plastic simulation. Kind of like producing fake margarine (I think that there is such a thing).

I worked at a furniture refinishing shop as a teenager, just before I went off to college. Kutzit -- the varnish/paint remover liquid stuff -- stank.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I believe what you asked for is how to chamfer or fillet the edge, right?

Most people handle it in the geometry. But I can do it in the shader.

The chamfer is really easy and I won't bother explaining it.

The fillet is harder, but simple in matmatic.

What we want to do is puff out the face so that the edges are round when joined. So each face needs to have a displacement at the edge that precisely implements a 45 degree arc of a circle. Assuming you're dealing with a square and not a rectangle, this is pretty easy. The rectangular case can be handled with just a bit more math, but I won't bother explaining that.

Here's how its done.

Letting x and y be my UV coordinates:

x = U
y = V

The distance (in UV space) to the nearest edge is:

e = Min(Min(x, 1-x), Min(y, 1-y))

Let k represent the desired width of the fillet on one face, expressed in UV space. So for example, if I want a 1% fillet:

k = .01

Now I need to scale e into the coordinate space of a circle with radius sqrt(2). To do this, I scale and flip the edge distance like this:

ex = 1 - Clamp(1 / k * e)

That is essentially my x coordinate for my fillet circle.

Now to compute my corresponding y coordinate:

ey = sqrt(2 - ex * ex) - 1

And now all I have to do is convert that to inches for displacement. A Poser square or box is 10.32 inches on a side. If it is scaled, I need to take that into account. In my demonstration I'm using boxes scaled to 400% so:

scale = 4

Finally the desired displacement is given simply by:

surface.Displacement = scale * 10.32 * k * ey

Done.

I'll post a render showing this next.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Here is the render. The orange thing is a one-sided square with a 10% fillet.

Below that, on the left is a panelled box with the hard edges. On the right, the same thing, but I added the calculation I gave above for a 1% fillet. It's clearly better. I've added this to the shader and you can dial in any k you want.

I'll also add chamfer to it - that's trivial.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

**XENOPHONZ - "**Real wood is too expensive"

Maybe for you it is :biggrin:

In my home I have cherry cabinets in the kitchen and all the bathrooms with exactly the shape I rendered above, and they are all solid cherry. I didn't yet set up the stain to match, but those shapes and wood grain are exactly what I have in real life.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

It's too expensive for the cheap companies that I work for. My last desk was metal and plastic. Oh, well.......I guess that they can't afford better furniture because they're giving all of the money to me..........sigh. We've all got to compromise somewhere.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Don't worry - matmatic can make fake wood too

This shader isn't just for cabinets. It can handle floors too. It will make all the boards for you and stagger them precisely or somewhat randomly, as seen here.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

BTW - I believe that you once indicated that you attended MIT -- I worked in a high-rise building about halfway between the MIT and Harvard campuses. My office building was located right next to the globe in Cambridge. The building had it's own parking garage on the bottom floor. Everyone in the building was told not to go out onto the street at night. I was frequently there until 2:30AM or so. We were designing a large expansion to a Texaco oil refinery located in Singapore. My bosses on the project were Brits -- they insisted on spelling 'analyzer' as 'analyser'.

It was always fun to gaze out of my 10th floor window down at the little groups of tech school students walking past below.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Here's a little sewing box.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Don't worry - matmatic can make fake wood too

This shader isn't just for cabinets. It can handle floors too. It will make all the boards for you and stagger them precisely or somewhat randomly, as seen here.

Now that's what I'm talkin' about.............:biggrin: !

Thanks, bagginsbill. I am properly impressed.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - Here's a little sewing box.

Exquisite little box and a shader.
Nowm for the step up in reality it needs a tad of noise in direction of the woodgrain, since lacquered wood is never that smooth (unless covered by a thick layer of resin) :))

Ad for a desk, mine is a laaaarge flat (no raised paneling) solid core, primed, doorpanel with Ikea legs screwed to it. Cheap, under 50 bucks, and it makes a perfect desk.

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I think that my "church tables" were something like $39.95 apiece at Sam's Club. Lotsa surface room, though. And strong -- which I need for all of my equipment.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

bagginsbill, you mean 90 degree arc of a circle for the fillet I hope... ;)

Very cool!

But limited in to what it can be applied by the sounds of it. Would be more generalized if one could set a minimum angle between polygons (like Phong uses) that determines where the filleting should occur. The problem here might be one of associating UV with polygons.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - Don't worry - matmatic can make fake wood too

This shader isn't just for cabinets. It can handle floors too. It will make all the boards for you and stagger them precisely or somewhat randomly, as seen here.

Yes, but can it handle cellos? (I gave up on a WIP which was a memorial tribute to Rostropovich because I couldn't get the texture I was using to look at all good in a render.)

Nope, I mean 45. See where two faces meet, they each contribute half of the 90 degree fillet. They touch exactly at the mid point of the fillet.

The reason is this. What do you do where three faces meet? Think about it. If the top face did all 90 degrees of the top fillet, and the front did all 90 degrees of the fillet with the left face, then you could not make the top fillet agree with the side fillet. And you'd have to program the front face to not make the fillet with the top face.

My way, you make the fillet on all four edges, but it's only half a fillet. The adjacent square on each edge makes the other half.

I agree it is limited and you'd have to do different math for edges that were not at 90 degrees. Still, given that I can make nice fillets for boxes, this saves a lot of time. No modelling.

Yes I can handle cellos. Give me one and I'll put a shader it.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - My way, you make the fillet on all four edges, but it's only half a fillet. The adjacent square on each edge makes the other half.

I agree it is limited and you'd have to do different math for edges that were not at 90 degrees. Still, given that I can make nice fillets for boxes, this saves a lot of time. No modelling.

Is the angle of normals of the faces information that can be extracted? Or a perpendicular to the specific edge.
If any of those can be read, then you wouldn't have to be limited to 90 only, but the the bisected angle between normals (or it's complement) - depending on which way the normal vectors are pointing, could be the angle used for half fillet?

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bagginsbill: Ah, I see. So you consider the 'fillet per face'. I stand corrected. :)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Holy cow. That's all I have to say. This is like sitting at the foot of Aristotle! I have to report the following emotion: bagginsbill is issuing so much great stuff, so fast and of such quality, that I am afraid if I (personally, the ego of og) do not soak it up and do something with it right away that he will stop!

Mr. BB that is just humor, but with a tinge of truth. Very grateful and eventually all will be put to use. Wow.

::::: Opera :::::

This issue is pertinent to my case over at 3DBuzz, by the way. Do they have such node warriors? Do they even have nodes? I swear the material room and the brains (others like Olivier as well as BB) that are showing us the power are putting Poser in high company.

By the way, I just responded in that forum!
http://3dbuzz.com/vbforum/showthread.php?t=150857&page=5

::::: Opera :::::

I didn't read the entire thread, but are they actually against topless female images? meaning they only like to see buff male hunks? o.k., I can live with that. but women are prettier IMVHO :lol: well, excepting jude, hugh, brad and johnny, of course :lol:

Miss Nancy, I think I would have been better off to have left V4 nude and not warned about nudity, as we do here. Then it might have been taken as a "nude artistic study."

Instead, a few of them think i am being.....and I ask for your forgiveness ahead of time....titilating!

It is really just one or two people who are attempting to make me the bad guy.

::::: Opera :::::

I think it's just "tit for tat".

Heh. Lots good info in that on pipeline pieces.... Now if P8 or and SR of P7 would do fbx.....

hey dale...as well as FBX, what if P8 added a new render engine option: VRay?

::::: Opera :::::

Poser can export as RIB, which means you can use any Renderman compliant standalone renderer.
But I agree that a plugin architecture for render engines would be much more professional. Poser 7 already can render in a separate process, so it shouldn't be too difficult for eF to add other render engines.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

Quote - Do they have such node warriors? Do they even have nodes?

Who? The 3D buzz or the higher end programs?

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Quote - hey dale...as well as FBX, what if P8 added a new render engine option: VRay?

::::: Opera :::::

Well..... Since I just finished downloading my Truespace 7.5 and Vray 1.5, I'd say hell yes! Being able to add engine options would definitely be not only a useful, but more professional appearing move. Actually, wasn't fbx one of the possible options listed in the questionaire a few months ago?

Quote - Poser can export as RIB, which means you can use any Renderman compliant standalone renderer.
But I agree that a plugin architecture for render engines would be much more professional. Poser 7 already can render in a separate process, so it shouldn't be too difficult for eF to add other render engines.

Hmm... I keep forgetting about the RIB output. And I wonder if they are doing the architecture changes needed to shift to a plugin structure of some sort. The python scripting crowd is making some nice little enhancers....and an actual plugin architecture would really open up the growth potential.

the reason i cite VRay is becuase they of course are in competition with Mental Ray and other variants and looking for an angle, and they have now gotten in line with trueSpace.

I have trueSpace 5.0 and the offer to me is full upgrade to trueSpace 7.5 with VRay for $595 (was $495 until offer expired the other day) and the new user price is $895.

I have to imagine that there have a least been conversations between EF and VRay. I have no evidence, however.

Hey dale, you got the deal! The only reason I hesitated was......no cloth sim and new hair sim in TS. Let me ask you this one question....

Can you move a fully realized Poser ANIMATION, with dynamic hair and cloth, into trueSpace and then render with VRay?

::::: Opera:::::

By the way, I left a message with the trueSpace marketing team when I was trying to decide to upgrade, and they called me back. We had a really productive discussion in which I brought up the value to them of a better Poser --> TS flow, especially for dynamic hair and cloth render. They told me "we already have plans for a better integration with Poser and have begun to realize the large numbers of users."

I see other evidence. As witnessed on the home page of Rendo, TS is hosting a catwalk show of Aery Soul's models presented in a TS 'common area' which includes chat and VOIP. It's next Tuesday. Great way to introduce Poser people to the TS interface!

http://renderosity.com/news.php?viewStory=13601

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - Hey dale, you got the deal! The only reason I hesitated was......no cloth sim and new hair sim in TS. Let me ask you this one question....

Can you move a fully realized Poser ANIMATION, with dynamic hair and cloth, into trueSpace and then render with VRay?

::::: Opera:::::

At the moment I can't answer that one. I am still in the very early stages of learning the Truespace interface and its updates; they have been upgrading the application faster than my free time for learning is available. What I have at the moment is the download; the hard copy and manual are still a few days away from release (I do like Caligari's habit of making a download of the final available so you can get started right away). However, I'll see about loading one of my dynamic test animations and see how it imports and renders. I do like hearing that they are looking at better Poser integration. Now if they can work out an X-stream scheme with Vue Infinite....that would be some serious mojo to have.

Hello everyone!

I followed the "Poser VS max/maya" thread from 3D buzz to here and am very glad I did! I think the art you do is beautiful! I hope that this aforementioned "thread" will not carry any ill will to 3D buzz or it's members. I am not a spokesperson for 3D buzz or any member there but myself. But, I will say one thing. Buzz (Jason) is one of the most caring people in the art and CG community and spends countless hours (along with his crew as well) helping ALL people from that same community.
I hope that I can still come here and look at all the works you people create as I find them inspiring. I have made 2 post in the thread created by Opera and I stand by what I have said. A tool is just that, it is what is in a persons heart and imagination that brings an art piece to life. A pencil is a tool that any person can pick up and use, it is an artist that can use it to create a masterpiece!
I look foward to seeing more of this site and hope you all will come over and visit us as well!

DJ, i never intended to make a stink over there, although I did intend to get people to stop making "Poser jokes" from ignorance. It turned a little antagonistic. However, most of the people who posted were NOT rude or huffy, only a few.

I hope that this aforementioned "thread" will not carry any ill will to 3D buzz or it's members<<
I have a lot of respect for Buzz; speaking only for myself, if/when I go to Max I will be over there as a contributor.

::::: Opera :::::

Hi DJLLAV

My name is Patorak, and I'd like to welcome you to the Renderosity community!

Cheers,
Patorak

Hi DJ, Welcome and thank you for stopping by :)
I'm glad this whole thing is turning into a friendly interaction between the communities. :)

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Hello Patorak and Connie, thanks for the welcome!

Yes, I too am glad that the thread on 3D buzz has allowed an introduction to each respective site. To argue over a tool is pointless and defeats the real things that matter--the artist and his/her love for what they do!

Stop by over at 3d Buzz and give Jason and the guys a hello! They love to see new works of art over there. I think Jason has actually had a few pieces of art from Renderosity on the 3D buzz daily news in the past. I would love to see more of what you guys do! I am very impressed by the quality I have seen here, as I myself probably could not attain it! Right now I am taking Buzz's XNA 101 extreme class, so it keeps me busy. But, I do hope to get into more 3D based art very soon. I will definatly be coming back for some tips and advice!

Hi DJLLAV

Thanks for the invite. I'll stop by later tonight. I agree about the tools. BTW checkout Renderosity's developers forum and the thread Plain Jane ( back on track ) for my latest WIP.

You know, the most fun I ever had in art was with an 8 pack of jumbo crayons and my parents living room walls.

Cheers,
Patorak

Quote -
You know, the most fun I ever had in art was with an 8 pack of jumbo crayons and my parents living room walls.

Oh, LOL, you did too? Too cute!
Walls were never safe around me, till I moved into my own place, then I started hanging newsprint or canvas on the wall, rather then bare walls.
Desks however are still not very safe around me, neither are monitor frames. I still have my box of crayons :D

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BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Welcome to the site, DJLLAV.

And I agree with your remarks in regards to 3D tools, and their use.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Connie, LOL!

Hey XENOPHONZ

How's it going?

It's goin' great, patorak. :biggrin: If I can just get my lighting in line, then it'll be going even better...........

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I'd really like to see a 'pro' version of Poser for animators. Both hair and cloth are almost up to snuff; add some form of softbody dynamic and improve the rigging scheme, and at least 12 of us would be in heaven..... :D

i am nearly in heaven, also.

I've put a lot of time into investigating taking Poser content out to Motion builder, Vue, Carrera, Max, XSI, trueSpace, etc., for power animation tools, lighting and render....it does not look good.
http://www.turbosquid.com/Forum/Index.cfm/stgAct/PostList/intThreadID/19974

Late last year I gave Carrera a real professional ride...dynamic hair and cloth do not translate, and speed of render -- once you build realism back in to Carrerra -- is not the big deal people make it out to be. During this last week I got a Poser scene to upload into POSE-Ray/POV-Ray, including dynamic hair. The render of the hair was abysmal, time wise, and no one is working in soft shadows in POV-Ray.

I'd LOVE to stay in Poser for animation and render. Hey E-F at least give us tangents with handles and some form of "stick in place" for feet and hands better than parenting.

Alternatively, something REALLY GOOD for in-out, like FBX Export out of poser into MotionBuilder (perhaps they could be convinced to resume publication of their 5.0 version or a reduced-set of the current, for, say, $500) and then back into Poser. MotionBuilder would not need to be asked to tackle dynamic hair and cloth, just facial expression and body movement, then back to poser for hair and cloth sim, render (hey can we get VRay in poser?).

Hey dale, i am not one of the 12 professionals yet....but my vids will be coming to the surface over the rest of this year....and you'll have to raise the number to 13.

:::::: Opera :::::

What are you lighting?

Just some scenes in P7. I'm experimenting. The experience is a mixture of elation and frustration. The goal is to get past the frustration part.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I'm still on P6. How do you like P7?

In a short phrase: I wouldn't go back to P6. I like P7 a lot. I apologize for not going into more detail, but I'm kind of distracted at the moment. Between LW 9.2, P7 and some other matters I'm (once again) wishing that there were 48 hours in each day.

So to put it bluntly: I can do more in P7 than I could do before in P6. And that pretty much sums it up. Perhaps we can discuss the in's & out's in more detail later.....I'd like to.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Sounds good.

Quote - Hey dale, i am not one of the 12 professionals yet....but my vids will be coming to the surface over the rest of this year....and you'll have to raise the number to 13.

:::::: Opera :::::

The 'Poser 12' is a joke of years. If you look at threads from years agone, it seemed like out of all the Poserverse, no matter where you looked....there were only 12 animators. Or 12 people who even knew you -could- animate with Poser. Or 12 people who knew how to find the dopesheet and timeline. Never mind knowing about interpolation, spline editing, etc. And there will never be more than the Poser 12!! Yet it is a tesseracting field containing an infinity of users, Borg like in its ability to assimilate.....! Either that or its like 12 timesharing condos..... :P

I my 'other' world...educating loan officers....we call it churn.

In yet another world, I once wrote a management program for a mortuary. I called it "bodies in, bodies out."

:: og ::

:Exits Lurk mode:
Forgive me but why this inane emotional attachment to compiled electronic
Compute Data sets?? and this insistence on vehemently defending them
against the "unfair" attacks of the "elitists"

This devotion to a peice of man made "technology" borders on evangelical worship
Boastful users of MAX, Maya XSI et al ,are NOT your Enemy
you enemy is...... TIME.

We are All Dying at some point in the future so by default the human being is losing!
with each passing moment spent repeating these tedious arguments
is a moment missed forever moment you werent setting up a scene creating some textures
editing an animation etc or..... (Shocker) getting some fresh spring AIR!!

I frankly believe that if we could miraculously remove/ ban ALL "3D character Software"
Except Poser...

the Poser "community" would assuredly and quickly divide into various Sects and go at war with itself the "Possette" lovers VS the Vicky lovers etc
in fact we see that nonsense in existence already.
which indicates this issue is never truly about which "Computer data set" ( Software) is better.
but is inevitably about the rapacious need of the ego gratification of winning Arguments.

: re enters Lurk mode shaking his head ruefully:

My website

YouTube Channel

thank you for sharing

Hmm, 12 people animate in Poser?

I animate in Poser so that makes 13. ;)

Full movies not just short ones with music and talking figures.

Besides all those other programs are Modelling programs they're not just animating. I dont think they should count.

Poser poses characters, lets me make walk cycles & talking figures & does more for the animator than a modelling program in my opinion. I just want to animate not model.

Progress report. I've been working hard on the carpentry script. It now handles joint work - miters, butt joints, etc. Check out this test render. Every object that looks like wood is a poser box.

Look at the closeup of the corner of the door. Look in the corners of the carved panel. See how the grain switches direction and how the panel is partially miter jointed as well as the full miter joint on the door frame.

I also improved the fillet - look at the edge and corners of the table, and the little box in front of James. The corners are now spheres.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Simply AMAZING :)))

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

gotta love those rounded edges (when wanted) right on BB!

Would you say a set made of such props will take AO and normal shadows well in the cracks and such? It looks to be true from that render.

I bet once you get this thing recreating straight and true boards and grain, with control of verticle and horizantal, that it will be relatively easy to back-build various noise and knots and dings, etc.

Really linking this.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - > Quote - Hey dale, i am not one of the 12 professionals yet....but my vids will be coming to the surface over the rest of this year....and you'll have to raise the number to 13.

:::::: Opera :::::

The 'Poser 12' is a joke of years. If you look at threads from years agone, it seemed like out of all the Poserverse, no matter where you looked....there were only 12 animators. Or 12 people who even knew you -could- animate with Poser. Or 12 people who knew how to find the dopesheet and timeline. Never mind knowing about interpolation, spline editing, etc. And there will never be more than the Poser 12!! Yet it is a tesseracting field containing an infinity of users, Borg like in its ability to assimilate.....! Either that or its like 12 timesharing condos..... :P

What I want to know is this: who do you have to assassinate in order to free up one of the allotted twelve slots? So that you can then assume their High Office?

I'm not so sure that I'd want to occupy one of those slots. Because once there, then you'd have to constantly be looking over your shoulder for the assassins who'd be after your slot among the 12.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Think we'll have to erect a statue for you in the Poser Hall of Fame Bagginsbill !

Why don't we have a Poser Hall of Fame? These exceptional people who over the years make Poser extend itself way beyond the neato little program it would otherwise remain.

A gigantic Hurrah for yu all !!

I thought I replied but it doesn't seem to be here. If I duplicate my answer, please forgive.

AO works with displacement cutouts, but it's not needed. The image was done without AO. There is IBL without shadows and two infinites with shadows.

I do a few trickes in the shader faking AO because I know where the cutouts are. I darken those places. And for the most part, they work just fine using the straight up Diffuse calculation.

I'm making the shader have multiple modes - you choose how you want. No raytracing? No problem - I'll fake the AO. See the wall panels - they are fake beveled - no geometry. The floor boards have real bevels. You can't really tell the difference.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - Why don't we have a Poser Hall of Fame? These exceptional people who over the years make Poser extend itself way beyond the neato little program it would otherwise remain.

Yes......let's erect statues! All of them standing in the T-position, and with blank stares on their faces! It would be a badge of honor!

(bald heads, too......)

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Very cool so you can have this type of prop work right if you have raytrace on or not. Terrif.

Here's a few variations on the stain and wood grain. Each of these was accomplished by changing only one or two numbers from the default values. I've overdone them so you can easily see the differences. These renders were done without raytracing.

There are currently 50 parameters - and more to come.

BoardLength = 72
BoardWidth = 6
BoardOffset = 0
BoardOffsetVariation = 0

RingsPerInch = 5

GrainVariation = 5
GrainJitter = 0

CoreAxis = 1

WoodColor1 = IColor(197, 136, 45)
WoodColor2 = IColor(230, 174, 94)
WoodColorBias = .5
RandomDarken = .1

StainColor = IColor(150, 83, 38)
StainStrength = .7
StainOpacity = .1

StainSpan = 0
StainSpanInterval = 20
StainSpanIntervalVariation = 20
StainSpanMin = .3
StainSpanMax = .7
StainSpanTransition = 2

StainMottle = 0
StainMottleSize = 50
StainMottleBias = .5

Bevel = 0
FakeBevel = 0
Gap = 0
Miter = 0
Butt = 0
Fillet = .1
Chamfer = 0
ChamferColor = None

Panels = 0
PanelContour = None
PanelTop = 0
Panel2Top = None
Panel3Top = None
PanelBottom = 0
PanelLeft = 0
PanelRight = 0
PanelOpacity = None

Reflect = .25

Seed = 1

X = U
Y = V
Scale = 968.992188
XScale = 100
YScale = 100
InchesPerX = 10.3200005
InchesPerY = 10.3200005

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Attached Link: LAVA planet

> Quote - > [ > > What I want to know is this: who do you have to assassinate in order to free up one of the allotted twelve slots? So that you can then assume their High Office? > > I'm not so sure that I'd want to occupy one of those slots. Because once there, then you'd have to constantly be looking over your shoulder for the assassins who'd be after *your* slot among the 12.

A search of the history here will show that indeed it was I
who asked Steve cooper (formerly of curious labs)
about any new animation features in poser-5 during the
the now infamous pre release poser-5 hype that frenzied these forums years ago

It was during that time that I first said "any new features for me and the other 11 poser users who actually animate??"

from then on some people began jokingly referring to me as
the founding member of "the 12 animators"

not using poser much at all these days as interposer Pro/Cinema4D has made the
the need to spend time in poser somewhat moot
I am more into effects,compositing and DVD production

like in this simple walk test animation render in DAZ studio
and Composited in Autodesk Combustion for OSX

My website

YouTube Channel

Nice little .mov there, Wolf! What's the learning curve on C4D like? And you do realize that you are going to have to watch out for Xeno from now on.... :P Besides, just think of the legend you spawned.... The Poser 12; CG's Dirty Dozen. Or looked at another way.....it's all his fault....

You know what is sad? People fighting over art!!!!!!!!!!!! You know some of these people who use these High end programs. Not all but some I wonder if they can even draw? I grew up in a house hold where art was fun. I am into many variations of art. I play guitar, paint, draw, sculpt,and am recently into the 3d art realm. I want my children to grow up loving art. Fighting over whos app is better or who is better because "I made an original character" Is not the way to teach new people to this community!!! If you can afford the big high end programs great!!! Good for you!!! If you make money doing this stuff I say bravo you have a gift and are being blessed in your talents!!! For me I live in a highstress enviornment right now called War!!!! I enjoy using poser wich I am very new too to release my stress and get over the fact that I am missing my 3 children all under the age of 5 grow up!!! I don't have the time or money to buy and learn programs like 3d max and stuff but im doing with what I have and can!!! With the little time that is afforded to me in life right now!!! Bash me all you want to because im a poser poser!! Please critique my work!!! I want to learn and learn how to become better!! Now if you are bashing to symply be a J*%$ @$$ I don't even care to know you! I enjoy art and I think it is great and should be very rewarding to those who are talented enough and kind enough to put there models out for free and see them used in many many differant ways!!! I thank those out there for it!!! I have seen some pretty rediculous so callled art out there make people lots of money just because that person made a name for themselves and decided to do somthing sick like smear crap on a canvas!!!! You know what if it is pleaseing to them and someone else then who is anyone to say other wise!!!

Well, people don't realize how lucky they are to have all these computer programs. When I was in school, it was all done by hand. PCs were not even a twinkle in Bill Gates eye, LOL!

i love this multi-threaded thread! 'Yes we can hold three conversations at once.'

There are certain implications in bagginsbill's project having to do with speed of render, not to mention flexibility of interior design. It would take some getting used to, perhaps a paradigm of 'painting virtual planks and texture with shader brush" or something like that.

For wood, if you get grain with variety, easy tweaking of the stain, control of the bevel of every edge and reflection, and you can do this without much geometry and without lighting geometry, your render can be very fast, I'd bet.

Add to that no real AO and perhaps raytrace not necessary, yet you get the requisite shadows and 'dirt' in corners and seams....I'd say this is a poweful interiors and set system that is through the envelope. I look forward to learning it and 'constructing' a set with it.

Note: on your May 23, 2007 3:31 pm post [[I WISH THESE POSTS WERE NUMBERED]] note there is reflection on the two top surfaces, let you are saying there was no raytrace on. Looking forward to seeing how that figures in.

::::: Opera :::::

Croyoc, your words are heard. I would add for balance: Some of the responders reacted badly and showed 'modeler chauvanism' and disdain for me and for the Poser world. Most of the people reading and responding to my post at 3DBuzz retain flexibiltiy of mind, however. I cannot speak for the hundreds of lurkers.

Frankly, the best case we can make for Poser being a valuable 3D app for creating art is to continue to turn out better and better results.

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - "Why don't we have a Poser Hall of Fame? These exceptional people who over the years make Poser extend itself way beyond the neato little program it would otherwise remain."

Quote Xenophonz: "Yes......let's erect statues! All of them standing in the T-position, and with blank stares on their faces! It would be a badge of honor!

    (bald heads, too......)"


That would be too cruel    :)
How about Bagginsbill standing on a wooden pedestal with drapes of fabrics done in his mats and say one of Ockham playing py buttons like a mad pianist. Ajax whipping tentacles or whatever around and Dr Geep with his foot victoriously atop of NaySay guy. DPHoadley could be poking his head out of a web of flattened mesh, Trekiegrrl sitting amidst a jumble of everyday bits - on-and-on. I can think of a few funnies and quite a number of people in the Poser community who'd be fun to immortalize along with a list of their accomplishments and contributions.   SnowSultan a Z toon figure with a color code running down his sides...

So who would you add in the Poser Hall of Fame?

I would add face_off. Not just because his skin shaders are the best, but because he has been so helpful in the forums. Since he became a dad, he hasn't got time to participate (hasn't posted since December 17 last year) but his body of contributions in 815 posts is outstanding.

This is my 919th post - I'm planning a mindbending posting for my 1000th. :biggrin:

OG:

The render you refer to did use reflection. I didn't mean to say you don't ever need it - the only way to see the vase on the table is to use reflection. What I meant was that I will provide mechanisms to use an environment map instead for general scene ambience, and that I'll include a few purely procedural environment maps in the script.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

cool

I've started a new thread for the Poser Hall of Fame as it - along with the discussion of bagginsbill's new wood shaders- is getting buried under this subject title and more people should see both :)

Chhers
Masha

Not the tool is important.What you do with it is.
You are right and they are right.
As someone here already said (MissNancy) you canot pretend to be an artist as long as your Poser renders are some crappy V3 big boobs renders or alike.and no , the 3DS/Maya users that just wrap other's textures on "their" models aren't artists either.
But are very good Poser/3D Studio Max/Maya/and others artists out there that make outstanding works.Those are the persons that suceeded to master the tools , no matter wich they are.And I bow in front of artists like bagginsbill here...
In conclusion , as long as you do only low level works with others models (even purchased) you have no right to call yourself an artist.You have to get out something that is your own and that is preponderent in the final artwork.
If you will look to my gallery , you will see the same crappy renders just like the other 95% Poser renders around here.And because of that , I don't have the pretention to call myself an artist.
But I have artworks at wich I am currently working that are comprised mostly of my work and very few to none of others (models and stuff).Also , I am working at my own line of organic models and when I will release it , I will make artworks comprised only of my own models (both organic and anorganic).Only then I can call myself an artist.And I will , proudly!
But until then more time will pass...
As for the starter of this thread , I think the work he/she posted on the first page is pretty good and he can call himself an artist by doing that type of artworks.If that is one of the artworks criticised as being made in Poser , then yes , I adhere to the opinon that it's unfair treatment.Anything else below that level...well , are just Poser crappy so called "artworks".
Just my opinion.

Best regards!

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: OT? -- Poser insulted at 3DBuzz, I decided not to let it pass