Drum roll please ....... after weeks of work - it's ready.

The Unbelievably Complicated Figure Shader for Apollo Maximus is finished. The shader system uses the standard textures that come with AM. All of the new features are done with procedural shaders. There are over 120 nodes in the face shader, and dozens more on the other zones.

Over 40 figure dials let you adjust the shaders from the pose room. No need to navigate the shader tree in the material room.

Also, I've published a new version of parmatic. You need that to make this shader system do the shader parameters on the figure. I've also published my light set.

With this shader system you can get hundreds of distinct looks from this one set of textures. It comes with many presets to help get you started.

Click here for the AMUCFS Shader thread at RDNA

Click here for the Parmatic 2 thread at RDNA

Click here for my light thread at RDNA

There is not yet an explanation of all the parameters. I'll be writing a tutorial that shows what each parameter does with renders demonstrating the effects. Keep an eye out for that.

Meanwhile, you can ask questions here or at the Node Cult.

I've sprinkled quite a few renders with this shader during its development here in this forum and also at the Node Cult at RDNA over the past few weeks. If you missed them, have a look around. There are a few in my gallery as well.

Let me see YOUR renders!

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Looks great. :)

Looking forward to more renders. I'm sure people will soon start begging for AMUCFSV4. :)

You mean V4UCFS - already did it. Also, V3. But that's a secret.

The problem with those ones is, which texture set do I build it for. So I have another idea. This will be a doozy.

Well, we'll just wait a minute on other UCFS and see how this one holds up to scrutiny. I have a habit of making things that seem easy to me, but others don't get my results. So maybe its a waste of time.

I REALLY tried to make this one easy. I give you presets for the parameters and my actual lights.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Thank you Bagginsbill, this is really a treat. I'm looking forward to working with it.

kalonart.com

Very impressive!!

---Wolff On The Prowl---

My Store is HERE

My Freebies are HERE

Now that's really amazing! really... really-really... okay, I'm speechless. :blink:

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Great job, BB.. I grabb AM, but unfortunately really don't have a use for him.

Now a Girl or Aiko 3 version I'd love... or heck even a power pixie! hehee

Now that you have yer system down though, I'd imagine it would be easy to adapt to other figures.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

This is amazing !
Thanks !!

Garee, you're not thinking out of the box. AM can be mophed into a quite attractive woman, at least the head can.

But yes, the system can be adapted to other figures. The problem is they don't have a standard texture the everybody has. The beauty of AM was he COMES with textures that work great in a procedural shader. Anton did the colors right and there is only minimal painted-on highlights. (A bit on the chin - keeps ruining my closeups)

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I've been looking forward to these since day 1...which incredibly wasn't all that long ago (you work fast!).

I haven't attempted to use/install Parmatic before, but I doubt I'll have any problems (there's a readme after all).

I have a render going right now that I'm half inclined to stop just so I can use this shader! Maybe I'll do a with and without for comparison. :)

Thanks again BB. You are the MASTER!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

the shader works fine. but there is only on the face texture.

what could be wrong?

Please type more carefully I don't understand.

There is only WHAT on the face texture?

Are you looking for the black skin? Set the very first dial - Skin 2 Blend - 0 = white, 1 = black.

Are you looking to change the face texture? Look in the Faces folder. If you don't have a faces folder you didn't unzip it correctly.

See? I'm guessing at problems and I have a hundred more I'm guessing. Please be more clear. Screenshots help instead of just words.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

This is great stuff!!!
I just downloaded and am going to test it on AM. Am currently working on a character, so this comes at exactly the right time.
Thank you very much!!

Quote - Please type more carefully I don't understand.

There is only WHAT on the face texture?

Are you looking for the black skin? Set the very first dial - Skin 2 Blend - 0 = white, 1 = black.

Are you looking to change the face texture? Look in the Faces folder. If you don't have a faces folder you didn't unzip it correctly.

See? I'm guessing at problems and I have a hundred more I'm guessing. Please be more clear. Screenshots help instead of just words.

i load the default shader. when i render there is no texture on the body. only on the face.

what could be wrong? its 100% my mistake. but i dont know what.

Again, your description is not specific enough. When you say there is no texture on the body, I'm not sure which of the following you actually mean:

The shader is not attached at all - it is showing the default AM pink plastic.
The shader is operating, but the colors from the texture file are not there.
The shader is not operating at all, and the body is solid white

I need a picture of the render. Also, go into the material room and verify that you have a really huge collection of shader nodes attached to the SkinBody material zone.

I can't even really begin to guess because you haven't let ME see your render and your material. Your description of the problem seems impossible to me. The pz2 file that contains the face shader ALSO contains the body shader, and I cannot imagine any possible way that it could attach one without the other.

If however, you do mean that only the body TEXTURE file isn't there, but that the procedural elements are working, such as body freckles and veins, then perhaps you did not install the Apollo Maximus textures correctly, or you deleted them?

It would really save a lot of time if you would post an image of your rendered figure, next to the material room, where I can see the root node and the material room preview and at least the first few nodes in the shader tree of the body material zone.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

bagginsbill - thank you. Lots to play around with and experiment.

As an "academic" exercise, I want to try getting a more blondie type of texture for my Apollo Maximus (I am not hung-up on blonde men, sorry to disappoint, but just that my fan-art character is a blonde guy.)

Eternal Hobbyist

Thanks so much - looking forward to trying this out!

-Alisa

Cheers,
Alisa

RETIRED HiveWire 3D QAV Director

Thanks BB, works well under Vista / Poser 7

Apollotest

i open poser. than i run paramatic main.
then i open apollo. then i go into the runtime folder and apply NoRT. then i use the default shader.

at the end i render.

ok works now.

ice-boy:

You don't need to run parmatic yourself. The shader takes care of running it for you.

That render shows the opposite of what you said. The body HAS the texture, the face does not.

Which gives me a clue what you did. You may have done this without thinking. When you click on Face loaders, there's no guarantee you have the face texture for Diesel or Willis. Those are additional downloads and do not come with AM. I think you don't have those, and you selected one of those faces.

If you truly just loaded the default shader that could not have happened.

But now you say its working? Ok.

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Infinity10,

Load one of the faces that has no eyebrows - I think it is Face01 but I'm not sure.

Anyway, get the face without the painted on eyebrows.

Now go into the shader parameters for Brows and Lashes. Turn on the Brows transmap - set it to 1. This will use the eye brow transmap overlay.

Now adjust the Brow Stain:Value and the Lash Stain:Value. (I may not be remembering those parameter names exactly) Try .5 to start. This will lighten the brows and lashes. Even blondes have pretty dark eye brows, but you can go all the way to WHITE, if you set the stain saturation to 0 and the stain value to 1.

To get more yellowish stain color, move the hue closer to 1. To get more reddish, move the hue closer to 0. Remember though to get other than shades of gray you need a non-zero saturation.

I think (it's all a blur now) I did a little of this on the Scandinavian or the Irish preset - can't remember which. I remember one of them does not have black eyelashes, but light brown instead.

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you know when it asks you for body-hair? i was not doing what i was supposed to do hehehe :)

the shader is perfection.

More pictures, more pictures!

Come on, show me your creativity. Apollo Maximus is the most amazingly morphable dude I've seen. So many faces. Now you can make textures to match. Share your presets. Even test renders are interesting. You don't have to make a whole scene.

How about a Genghis Khan dude - try the Body Builder preset.

More Blue Men - I only worked on the glaring expression, not the morph. Their faces are really angular and interesting.

Villains,

Aliens,

Elves. (what color are Elves?)

Ogres.

Dwarves.

Hobbits.

How about Native Americans - should be easy to make a good ruddy skin tone now.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

bagginsbill - many thanks. Will experiment.

Eternal Hobbyist

Thanks - I can't wait to play with this :)

looks like someone's into Blue Man Group..;) off to see. Heck, anything that can supply eyelashes and brows is good enough for me..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Thank you. You are a genius among men.

Free men do not ask permission to bear arms!!

I've tried installing parmatic 2 as mentioned in the readme, but it doesn't seem to be running.

Your abilities are only exceeded by your generosity.

Thank you so much.

I've tried installing parmatic 2 as mentioned in the readme, but it doesn't seem to be running.

Please define "doesn't seem to be running?"

If you're concerned that nothing is printing in the Python console, don't be. I turned off all the printing because it was very annoying.

The only way you can claim to know it is not running would be if you have moved shader dials, but confirmed that nothing is changing in the material room. Have you done that. Most people don't even know how to get the parameters up while in the material room.

Go into the mat room.
Select one of the skin zones so you can see the skin in the preview of the root node.
Use the Window menu to display the parameters window.
Change the "Skin 2 Blend" parameter from 0 to 1. If parmatic is running, the mat room will refresh and you'll see the black skin. If something is wrong, you won't.

One subtle thing about this is that Poser doesn't send a notification to Python that a parameter has changed UNTIL YOU MOVE THE MOUSE.

If you're not using the mouse, or at least moving it, move it.

If you're still convinced that parmatic is not running, open the parmaticUpdater.py file. Change the line that says verbose = 0 to verbose = 1. Then run the script and leave the Python window open. Then move a dial. If it says "Parmatic Callback" (or similar - it's not in front of me) then the callback is working and something else is wrong.

What version of Poser? What SR?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I'm using the latest SR version of P7.

I have no idea of how python works, but I tried what you said and it seems with the skin2blend so it would seem that it is installed ok.

Thanks :)

bagginsbill,

Thank you so much for sharing. The amount of time you have put into this project must be astounding. The results shown in your renders are outstanding. Having made a few freebies now, I understand how much you want to see renders. I am going to give it a shot. but my Poser knowledge is still very limited. I hope I can get everything to work, if I can I will post, if I can't , I still thank you so much.

HorseFeathers

I have everything working with P7 SR2. What screwed me up at first was not interpreting the read-me correctly. I battered my head against the monitor until I realised that...
a) The base texture is actually located ABOVE the other installed folders( Faces, Presets-Realistic, and Presets-Special Effects ) in Apollo_UCFS.
b) Once I found them I needed to apply one of them before I could do anaything else.

DOH!

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

Here's a quick comparison I threw together.

When I first downloaded Apollo all I ever used was Anton's MyFavRaytrace light set...until I discovered P7's 'faux' HDR. Hence their inclusion in the comparison. And I couldn't ignore BB's own included light set, which is an absolute plum I might add.

I don't know if this is listed anyway, but a simple description of what you need to do and the order in which you need to do it would probably help lift the mystery on this fine shader.

Otherwise you'll get allot of:
"Do I run the script now?"
"Why won't the face change when I tell it to?"
"Does my butt look big in this?"
etc.

Great work BB, and a sincere thank you from me.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Thank you BagginsBill for this most generous gift .

1st ApolloRender using the newest mmpm shaders.

Cheers
DR

"That government is best which governs the least, because its people discipline themselves."
Thomas Jefferson

Just installed this on a second machine (my main one).

Not sure what's wrong, but this is what I see.

Where are the dials?

Any help would be greatly appreciated. I'm sure it'll be something impossibly simple, but for the life of me I can't see what I've done wrong!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Looks like you forgot to install parmatic. The dials are actually created by parmatic. The dial groups are organized by the pz2 but the only way to MAKE the dials is with Python.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

a simple description of what you need to do and the order in which you need to do it would probably help lift the mystery on this fine shader.

You gotta help me out with this because I wrote the readme with the shader as simple and short and to the point as I could imagine. I'm assuming you did read it. You couldn't possibly be suggesting I make it shorter, are you?

Here's the shortest possible version - should I put this at the top of the readme?

Install the shader.
Install parmatic.
Load Apollo
Double click the non-raytraced shader
render

After that its not so simple. Click faces to load them. Click presets to load them. Click better base shaders to use raytracing. Ok, it actually is that simple.

Seriously, help me out. There is no running of scripts as you mentioned. You load the shader and render. Then you play with faces and presets, and keep rendering.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Forget I mentioned it BB. It was late - I was tired...I'm a tool. The readme is exceptionally simple to follow.

With the missing dials, I now realise what I've done wrong. I keep forgetting that my main Runtime is now my Poser 7 Runtime, not Poser 6. Nothing wrong with the script...just my brain.

It's running on both machines now, and is an absolute joy! I can't wait to tinker with those dials!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Many thanks for giving this to the community bagginsbill. Here's my first attempt at doing it justice.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1472707

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

Absofrickinlutely Amazing! Thank you very much!

kalonart.com

The problem now is having to lift the quality bar on all of my props and clothing to match!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Quote - The problem now is having to lift the quality bar on all of my props and clothing to match!

Ain't THAT the truth! ~lol~

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

Would love to check these out but keep getting errors when I try to download, no matter if I try with IE or Firefox. Keeps giving me errors like too many connections and then failure to connect to server.

Yeah, I'm getting that too :(

PORTAL

I keep getting errors when I try to download says the database is full??

its not only bagginsbill stuff, seems that divshare is since 2 days down

I just tried downloading baggins files and it worked for me. No problems or glitches.

It's up again just got them and will be playing with them later after work. Thanks in advance they look great!

Divshare keeps going up and down - grrr.

Semidieu is hosting them on his ShaderWorks site, temporarily. Try once more to get them from divshare, because I like to keep the download count up to date. But if that fails on you again, go here:

poser.rois-sorciers.com/ShaderWorks/AMUCS.html

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

I must have a distorted sense of what people really want in Poser land. There is a freebie - 8 poses for the Daz gorilla - that philgreg posted about the same time that I posted this shader on Friday.

So far the 8 gorilla poses have been downloaded 217 times versus 203 times for AMUCFS.

You people want me to make gorilla poses?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Naw .. This shader rocks :) I think people see stuff in the freestuff area and just raid it. Sometimes without even reading what it is or just in case. I remember reading people posting that they put an add on to a product in the free stuff. A texture for the dress. The dress only sold around 50 copies but it had a few hundred downloads of the free dress texture that would only work on the dress.

Gorilla poses being a slightly more popular download? Several reasons I can think of, but the simplest is - Gorilla Poses work in Poser artist, P4, P5 & up, while your incredible shaders only work for people who have P6 or 7?
Plus, a lot of P6 & 7 users shy away from the more complicated aspects - they're uncomfortable with magnets and lighting, let alone materials and shaders, that's why most clothing, sets, and characters sell better with MAT poses or material settings than just with textures.

Quote - You people want me to make gorilla poses?

Oh, gaaawd nooo! No gorilla poses!
I love Apollo just the way he is ;), with your shaders of course!

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Agree with leather-guy.. You put 'shader' or anything technical sounding in the title, you lose 90% of the audience right there :)

Plus it is for apollo, which is a) not a big boobed female and b) not named v1/2/3/4 or M1/2/3. That takes care of the other 90% :p

Seriously though... thanks a lot for sharing, i'm sure it will come in handy !

methinks someone needs to make 'Natural Gravity Morphs' for Apollo
[ducking and running]

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Hee hee.

Of course I'm only joking about the downloads counts. I agree that people collect free stuff just in case.

Still it's curious that AM has been downloaded almost 19,000 times. I expected at least 3% of that for the shader in the first 3 days.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Yeah, one would think you'd get couple of thousand downloads at least. Go figure!
I was taking a peak at the apollo freebie downloads in our freeboe section. Apollo freebie with most DL's is a warrior type helmet, with 2000, followed by facial morphs around 1000's, and couple skin textures are around 500.

Um, look at it on the bright side, reasonable server traffic ;)

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

on the other hand, i bet 203 of those shader downloads will actually get used, & more than once, while how many people will ever use those goriilla poses once let alone often??

lost in the wilderness

Poser 13, Poser11, Win7Pro 64, now with 24GB ram

ooh! i guess i can add my new render(only) machine! Win11, I7, RTX 3060 12GB

My Freebies

Just adding my Thank You here bagginsbill - Very much appreciated! :biggrin:

~ Meow ~

I wouldn't worry about it BB, but I would suggest having your shader linked in the freebies section of Apollo's homepage, as well as the content page. I'm sure Anton would be proud to include it.

My Ogre morph has only been downloaded 458 times fron Renderosity according to their counter, but has overall been downloaded almost 5,000 times (last time I checked).

Your shader is in a whole different league to my hack-job of a morph, so I wouldn't be suprised if you hit a few thousand downloads within a couple of weeks, assuming you don't rely on Renderosity for traffic.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

I like this pic you rendered of the Bruce Willis freebie for Apollo. I have been wanting to become more familiar with Matmatic and such for ages now. I really want to find the time soon.

This pic and the others you posted are all great. I apologize for being quiet. Lots of real life stuff has had me away from the computer of late.

Anyway top notch stuff. Thanks for the support and interest. I love the reaction when people realize Apollo is exactly 40,000 polygons.

Don't be a stranger at the CP forum for Apollo, It is very active and many Apollo users browse there.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

""So far the 8 gorilla poses have been downloaded 217 times versus 203 times for AMUCFS.
You people want me to make gorilla poses?""

For me - honest to god - it was the name that kept me from downloading it until now.
"unbelievably complicated" Thoughts to self: "hmm too bad, would have been super cool"
Today I figured I would at least try it. So I just got done downloading, scrutinizing the read me. Soon I will pull up poser and see what kind of mess I can make out of it. And I am someone who has been WAY frustrated with Apollo textures, so this was something I literally needed.

When I installed Matmatic and there's that part where you're suppose to change the script to create the button - well I could not visually see if there was a space in the text or not, long story short I didn't get it to work because I typed it wrong and have been scared of anything that mentions python since.

crossing fingers that I do better with this one.

I am: aka Velocity3d

Well, the actual process is easy. It is just that the shader is complicated but you really don't have to mess with that. :)

Yeah I think its just the way people look at the name of stuff (judging a book by it's cover if you will). I know very well that I shouldn't. But if I go to a store and want gourmet shrimp and they have a brand there named "bleach" Im less likely to try it lol.

Anyway I DID in fact get both the shaders AND that scarey python script to work in Poser 6. Both done without any pain whatsoever. And he looks beautiful!!!!!!! The fact that I could do it is proof positive that anyone can so anyone who hasn't tried (possibly for the same reasons as I) should!! Right Now!!!

Thank you VERY much BB this is the answer to my prayers in Apollo textures.

Now if I can figure out Matmatic I'll be the happiest girl = D

One tiny question:
Is there a way to keep him from just displaying as white before rendering - so that I can get a visual idea of what the dials are doing or is that a no?

~Edit sorry two tiny questions~

Do these shaders transfer over into other renderers ok?

I am: aka Velocity3d

jj

You don't need to edit anything with this shader.

In a clean new session, you just follow the instructions. The mat pose file will run the python stuff for you.

The only tiny complication is if you exit poser and start it up again. When you load a scene, parmatic does not get re-installed automatically. If you manually load the shader again on a figure, it will install the python callbacks. Or, you can just run the parmaticUpdater one time per session. For the rest of the session, all parmatic enabled figures and props will be active.

Off topic, but regarding your mis-typing of the python window buttons script, you do know that you don't have to do that editing at all. You can load a script into a button just by clicking one of the empty "..." buttons. The only reason to edit your button script was so you could skip that step each time you start poser.

Also, I'm curious why you would TYPE when you could simply copy and paste. When people tell me to type "SOEIJ #J F#I#JF*#FS" into something, I don't type. I copy it and paste it.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Cross post! :biggrin:

I totally don't understand the white thing. Even if you aren't getting white, there is no visual feedback in the preview to what the dials are doing. Maybe if you use the Poser 7 hardware assisted preview, but I've been told that my 122 nodes are too much for the preview engine. Real time rendering of something this good is probably impossible. If it was possible, then games would look like my renders, right? Seriously imagine if a game looked that good in real time.

I don't think these shaders will transfer out of Poser at all, except maybe in the latest version of Vue. I've heard that Vue just kicks out to Firefly to render things that have complex Poser shaders.

I used every trick in the book, fully exercising the power of the Poser shader engine. I"m pretty sure that none of the other engines can emulate it.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Excellent question BB,
why would I type when I could copy/paste. Seems kinda dumb... as if there must have been some reason why I didn't but my memory fails me. Maybe I was in fact just having a dumb moment. GG kind of embarrassed now that I didn't ever think of that-

I am: aka Velocity3d

You are correct. Carrara wont even open the scene -
BUT Vue5Inf will open and render it. (not sure what engine it used but was infinintely faster than posers render.)

I am: aka Velocity3d

Correction and update -

Carrara WILL open and render this shader. (pro version I don't know about the others)
Carrara does not like IBL from poser for some reason and I believe that was my previous problem.

The bump transfers over as very high in the hair area and that needs to be tweaked - but it is all there.

I am: aka Velocity3d

i noticed that with this shader it renders like 4 times longer.

is this normal?

jj:

Are you sure that Carrara is really implementing the whole shader? It was my understanding that it just uses the same texture files that it finds in the Poser shader tree, but that it isn't capable of implementing all the nodes that Poser has. Are you really seeing all the spots and veins and pores and moles just exactly the same? If so that's awesome.

I'm only saying this because several people have asked me to write a "matmatic" for other renderers. If these other renderers can really just read and use a Poser shader tree, why would they ask me to do that?

ice-boy:

This shader uses a LOT of nodes, so yes it runs slower. However, I don't think the performance is unacceptable, considering how much better the results are. If you're using Poser 6, you really should be turning on the reuse of textures so they don't need to be loaded over and over. Also, caching your shadows will help too.

My test renders are finishing in under a minute, for the most part. Final renders at large sizes are like 5 minutes.

The performance will be affected by which shader you choose as well. If you choose the one with AO on the skin, it is very slow. You generally don't need that. I use AMUCFS!RT most of the time. That has reflection and AO in the eyes only, not the skin. The AO in the eye whites is very important, and doesn't cost much because its only a small part of the render.

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ok what you wrotte makes me angry. because it took me 5 minutes to render my image and i had to put the texture to 3000. if i have 4000 i get an error. or it doesnt load the texture image.

I need opinions. I'm starting work on documenting the shader parameters. I've automated the rendering and production of web pages, as seen in the attached image.

My question: is this enough for you to understand what's going on, or do I need to write a lot of words to go with it.

The automated rendering is making my life easy. I just set up the values I want it to render and run it. It takes a long time to do hundreds of renders, but at least I can do other things.

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You think 5 minutes for realistic skin, teeth, and eyes is too long? Without the complex shader, you'd spend HOURS trying to get the same effect with a simpler shader.

Did you try my suggestions for test renders, as outlined in the readme? You really don't need high detail to get the colors and overall lighting right. I can usually do 20 renders leading up to the final. By that time, I know the final results are going to be what I want.

How much RAM do you have? You really should have a gigabyte of RAM to run Poser well. You may be paging a lot sooner than I am. I have no trouble running my texture size at 4K. In fact, I have no trouble rendering 5 copies of Apollo in the same render, each with different parameters. Like this one. If you were using different texture image files to get these different ethnic effects, you'd not be able to load even two figures.

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Quote - You think 5 minutes for realistic skin, teeth, and eyes is too long? Without the complex shader, you'd spend HOURS trying to get the same effect with a simpler shader.

Did you try my suggestions for test renders, as outlined in the readme? You really don't need high detail to get the colors and overall lighting right. I can usually do 20 renders leading up to the final. By that time, I know the final results are going to be what I want.

How much RAM do you have? You really should have a gigabyte of RAM to run Poser well. You may be paging a lot sooner than I am. I have no trouble running my texture size at 4K. In fact, I have no trouble rendering 5 copies of Apollo in the same render, each with different parameters. Like this one. If you were using different texture image files to get these different ethnic effects, you'd not be able to load even two figures.

i need 4000 for texture because of my bodysuit.
i have 1 GB RAM

i will try outline.

Something like that PM:Stain:Hue series will be just what the doctor ordered.

Although I'm having a HUGE amount of fun tinkering and toying with these myself. I'm amazed at some of the 'extreme' results you can squeeze out of this.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

I rendered in less than a minute as well.

Regarding the Carrara render I think you may be right. There are alot of parameters in there for the different materials. I got him very close to looking like he did in poser by just adjusting a few things. In the end I just don't know - so add me to the list of people who really wants you to make these for other renderers as well = D

I just can't justify using poser to render when what takes hours there takes minutes in other programs. My scenes also require V4 and Apollo and for some reason my poser doesn't like any more than 1 apollo in a scene at any given time - (murphies law it makes no sense, I know).

Carrara is just by far the absolute best 3d program I have ever touched - the ease of use and quality can't be beat. - I'm gunna stop now before I start sounding like I'm putting on an Ad for it...

I am: aka Velocity3d

I've never had this problem JJ.

I've rendered upwards of five Apollo's, fully clothed and textured on my secondary system (512mb RAM only) and not had any problems.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

you think it has to do something with poser or is it my computer?

can somone post a screencap of you render settings?

I don't have access to Poser right now, but if you use the render settings suggested by BB in the Apollo Shader readme you should be golden.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

i now saved the material collection and then i restarted poser. i opened everything .looked fine. then when i render poser it just closed down.

i noticed that it spends at least 1 minute to load texture. i really dont understand what is wrong.

Quote - jj:

ice-boy:

This shader uses a LOT of nodes, so yes it runs slower. However, I don't think the performance is unacceptable, considering how much better the results are. If you're using Poser 6, you really should be turning on the reuse of textures so they don't need to be loaded over and over. Also, caching your shadows will help too.
My test renders are finishing in under a minute, for the most part. Final renders at large sizes are like 5 minutes.

The performance will be affected by which shader you choose as well. If you choose the one with AO on the skin, it is very slow. You generally don't need that. I use AMUCFS!RT most of the time. That has reflection and AO in the eyes only, not the skin. The AO in the eye whites is very important, and doesn't cost much because its only a small part of the render.

i can not find this.

I'm not in front of Poser at the moment, but both options are on the bottom of the Render menu.

There's a checkbox textures and another I think is called "Reuse Shadow Maps".

There are entries next to them to reload textures (clear the cache) or clear the saved shadow maps. So basically once either gets created Poser won't load or build them again.

I start out with my Max Texture Size at 1K. I do many renders without shadows.

Then I enable shadows and if I've moved anything I clear the shadow map cache. Then I do a check render
Then I change my max texture size to 4K, click reload texture (because I want it to start using 4K not the old 1K), start the render, then go get lunch.

4K textures seem to be the limit of Poser on my machine, and my PC gets a little ill after using them. 3K works fine almost all the time, but there is some loss of detail on hair. If you're not doing a hair closeup, 3K is more than enough.

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BB,

I've been playing around with these shaders since you released them and they are awesome. The thing I was wondering because I have found a way to do it was, can the shader increase the size of the larger veins in the arms and legs?

It can increase the height of those veins, but it can't make them thicker. Those veins are part of the body displacement map. The parameter Body Displacement controls the height of that. There is more to that map though, it include muscle definition and some wierd bumpiness on the neck which I don't like.

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Quote - It can increase the height of those veins, but it can't make them thicker. Those veins are part of the body displacement map. The parameter Body Displacement controls the height of that. There is more to that map though, it include muscle definition and some wierd bumpiness on the neck which I don't like.

Oh yeah, did some checking and noticed that. Been looking that the Displacement image file. Too bad you can't control the vein defination without affecting the muscle defination.

Three points on that topic:

Nothing stops you from editing the displacement map. You could tone down or remove the muscle areas. (Make a backup of the original first, of course)
Nothing stops you from opening up my pz2 shader files in a text editor and changing the displacement map image name to a new one. Then you could make your own map and automatically load those. Again, make a backup of the original pz2 first, or even better copy it to a new name of your choosing.
Go edit the matmatic script and add more maps to the displacement calculation. You could then introduce multiple maps that you can control independently.

I'd go option 3 myself, of course. I even wanted to do a displacement veins coloring parameter (you know - make those big veins blue) but the disp map includes muscles as well and they turn blue, too. The muscle definition map should be in a separate file.

With matmatic it is trivial work to add even a dozen separate maps to control different features. And, they don't all have to be high-res either. Also, with appropriate scaling and offsets, they don't even have to cover the entire material zone. I'm thinking about making some eye wrinkle displacement maps. When I do, they will not cover the whole face, just the region around the eye. This will make them almost free as they will use very little memory.

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Quote - Three points on that topic:

Nothing stops you from editing the displacement map. You could tone down or remove the muscle areas. (Make a backup of the original first, of course)

Nothing stops you from opening up my pz2 shader files in a text editor and changing the displacement map image name to a new one. Then you could make your own map and automatically load those. Again, make a backup of the original pz2 first, or even better copy it to a new name of your choosing.

Go edit the matmatic script and add more maps to the displacement calculation. You could then introduce multiple maps that you can control independently.

I'd go option 3 myself, of course. I even wanted to do a displacement veins coloring parameter (you know - make those big veins blue) but the disp map includes muscles as well and they turn blue, too. The muscle definition map should be in a separate file.

With matmatic it is trivial work to add even a dozen separate maps to control different features. And, they don't all have to be high-res either. Also, with appropriate scaling and offsets, they don't even have to cover the entire material zone. I'm thinking about making some eye wrinkle displacement maps. When I do, they will not cover the whole face, just the region around the eye. This will make them almost free as they will use very little memory.

All very good ideas. When I was looking at the displacement map, the first thought I had was to remove the muscle areas leaving only the veins until I noticed that some of the veins on the body run through the muscle displacements and for me, removing the muscle displacement wouldn't be too easy without leaving ragged edges on the veins or leaving areas of muscle next to the veins. Then I thought about a new layer where I could redraw the veins, but, I can't draw that smooth of a line. I also noticed that there are few or no veins on the legs. So, my only option is to leave it be and use it as it is.

Baggins,
I created a non-lurking account just to reply to this.

The work that you and Anton have done AND offered for free cannot be praised enough. The generosity of you two is incredible. That a noob like me can download and create realistic human renders without paying an arm and a leg for each arm and each leg is fantastic. Many of the fee-based products pale in comparison.

And so I thank you.

Some thoughts (I'm a software tester by trade - so bear with me)

Good - the read me is excellent and easy to follow. With the stock Apollo I was having trouble getting realistic looking renders because of all the variables in the shader nodes and lighting options. Overwhelming. So that I can quickly get to a base look and tweak from there is invaluable.
Confusing - the white figure - It took me shrugging and hitting CTRL-R before I saw that this was normal. Workaround - using your lights or setting the defaults to a very low intensity made it easier to see any other changes I was making to the figure. Sure you can pose and morph before adding the shader nodes. But if you find you missed something in the pose, it can be frustrating to go back and try to adjust with the figure detail washed out. I dont know the answer for this - but maybe some notes on the subject in the readme would help.
Frightening - As pointed out, the title of the product is daunting. When so many other products are titled "Magic boobies" or "Hair Dance Xpress" the name of your product scares us newbs.
Bug? - if you have the wrong figure selected and apply a pose (i.e. I had the light selected by mistake) the python goes berserk with errors and pops up over and over. I only escaped by closing the window 15 times or so. I dont know enough about pythin to suggest how to handle the errors. Unless you can catch the error and go to an error and exit function.

I only found out about this product via my daily forum cruising. And this is the only poser forum I regularly look at. Frankly I dont have tme to go to a dozen sites to keep up on everything. So spreading the word via the freebies and Anton's site (if he is willing) are good ideas to get more adoption of this wonderful tool.

Another suggestion I would make is that you continue to develop this for Apollo for free (keeping in the spirit of Anton's fantastic release) but DO develop versions for other figures (V4, Aiko, etc) based on the development and testing done on the Apollo version - and charge for them. I would cheerfully pay up. I think others would to.

Again, thank you for this great tool.

Chop

BB,

Just installed everything yesterday and I love the potential! Still working out the lights.

Like jjroland mentioned, the name made me pass this over the first time. I didn't quite understand what it was since it said it was complicated. I'm new to Poser (since March) and haven't learned all the tricks yet - especially the Material Room.

When I open it up and find a node or 2, my brain crashes - like Windows - the blue screen of doom. But, when I opened up your texture settings and saw the pages and pages of nodes, I quickly understand that you are the God of Poser's Material Room and I worship you. I wish I understood even 1 node setting because I love the realism you have created with this little download.

My question is, and I'm pretty sure I already know the answer: as Gareee mentioned, he has very little use for Apollo and uses girl models - I'm the oposite, I have yet to open a girl model because I use Apollo exclusively. I have every texture for him and my favorite being the Jepe's Dick AM VI with it's 3 different hairiness textures - demostrated in my avatar on the left.

I like the way the hair shows up, but is there no way to use other textures (like Jepe's) with this system?

Being that I only use Apollo, these standard textures will limit the number of charaters I can create with this system.

You should be able to swap out the other textures no problem. One of Bagginsbill's earlier shots showed another texture. You just will have to find the texture node (bump and displacment too, if they have them) in the system and swap that out.

Possibly, but image map 1 is the hair pattern which I'm sure wouldn't match Jepe's since it's a lot less hair than Jepe's. I wouldn't know what to do with it, or would I need to replace it?

So, you can go into the Material Room and replaced all the material zone's textures.

I didn't touch the hair displacement map and I think that's my last obstacle. The skin has all the wonderful textures, but the hair parts look a little flat and steal away some of the realism.

Jepe's Dick AM VI doesn't come with hair displacement maps, so for some reason, I'm feeling ambitous enough to think that I could create them myself using CS3.

We'll see. The rest of my day is booked, so I'll try another time and let you all know how it goes.

ok it works for me now.

i have still some questions.

is it just me or is the default shader a little dark? i guess i am using the wrong lights.
to me it looks like the scandinavian is more like the europen white people. what do you think?

bagginsbill the shader is incredible. i still dont understand how you did this. amazing.

I know I sound like a broken record, but I am LOVING this shader!

I've been tinkering with oiliness, pores, highlights etc. and getting some really cool results. I'm absolutely amazed at what can be squeezed out of these image maps with some creative dial spinning and a good light set.

BB, I was wondering if you'd allow for people to distribute Material sets created using your shader as part of a character pack (free of course)? I know I could just as easily distribute shader pre-sets (thanks to your idiot proof instructions), but some people are too intimidated to download your shader in the first place. At the very least, if they like the results they get using my Material set, maybe they'll take the plunge themselves.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

So, I created the hair displacement map to match the Jepe texture. (BTW - I still consider myself a noob with lots more to learn, so my terminology may not be correct, but what I intend to mean is: the picture of the hair pattern that is black & white that is loaded into image map 1 in the material room)

I have tried everything I can think of, but the hair just doesn't pop off the picture like the standard AM texture hair does.

I'll wait for the God of the Material Room to return and help me on this issue.

Another query: A non-artist, non-Poser friend of mine critiques the picture by saying: "...the muscles on his upper arms have the texture of an orange."

What dial do I need to tweak to tone the "orange" texture down?

And finally, how do I change eye color? Do I simply pick another color out of the pose library for AM? Before or after applying AMUCFS?

Woo hoo you guys have been busy while I was drinking my way through Independence Day.

I kept peeking online and reading stuff, and soooo wanted to answer, but my wife kept saying "Are you back on that d*** computer again?" Heheh.

So it's Thursday morning, I have ZERO bugs left on my real job software, and I'm looking forward to responding throughout the day, unless some knucklehead from QA comes and makes me do real work again.

I really appreciate all the feedback I'm getting - thank you all.

I think I'll also post some WIPs from my Parameter Dials manual - and I'll start a FAQ for those questions that seem to be fundamental quickies, like this eye color business. Which couldn't be simpler by the way.

Stay tuned. I've only just got my first cup of coffee.

A special thanks to Anton for his support and interest in the shader. Makes me feel warm and fuzzy.

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Quote - unless some knucklehead from QA comes and makes me do real work again.

Sheesh, you Dev types are all the same. :biggrin:

So I have a new idea I'm working on. I want to run this by you guys to see if it is workable for you.

The shader is written in matmatic, and if you take the trouble to use matmatic you can edit the script to change the image files that it uses.

However, I understand that this is not the most fun thing to do. So I have another scheme.

First, I change the shader so that every image map node is clearly marked as to what it is for.

Then I add two more scripts to parmatic. The first you use to scan the shader and save a text file. This file shows all the current image map assignments. The other you use to load the text file and make the necessary changes to file names in the shader.

The saved file looks like this:

BodyBump=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_Body1Bump.jpg
BodyColor1=:Runtime:textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_Body1.jpg
BodyColor2=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_Body02.jpg
BodyDispMap=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_DisplBody1.png
BodyFreckleMask=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:UCFS:UCFS_APM_BodyFreckleMask.jpg
BodyHairMap=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_BodyHair1.jpg
BrowsTransmap=:Runtime:textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_LashTr.jpg
EyewhiteColor=:Runtime:textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_Eyeball1.jpg
FaceBump=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_Face1Bump.jpg
FaceColor1=:Runtime:textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_Face1.jpg
FaceColor2=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_Face02b.jpg
FaceFreckleMask=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:UCFS:UCFS_APM_FaceFreckleMask.jpg
FacePoreMask=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:UCFS:UCFS_APM_PoreMask.jpg
IrisColor1=:Runtime:textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_EyeIris1.jpg
IrisColor2=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_EyeIris2.jpg
IrisColor3=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_EyeIris3.jpg
IrisColor4=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_EyeIris4.jpg
IrisColor5=:Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_EyeIris5.jpg
LashTransmap=:Runtime:textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_LashTr.jpg
TeethColor=:Runtime:textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_TeethTongue1.jpg
TongueGumsColor=:Runtime:textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_TeethTongue1.jpg

You edit that file. First you delete any items you don't want to change, leaving only those you DO want to change. For example, if all you want to do is change the BodyHairMap (jredline) you delete all the other lines. Then you edit that one line to identify the file you want to use instead.

You save the file. Then you run the Parmatic Load Image Files script and give it the file to use. It then performs all the multi-zone changes as needed.

At any time, you can then save the results modified shaders as a new material collection. Or you can just use the text files and loader script to load variations.

The alternative I can think of is to build a whole GUI around this, but it would have to be a TK GUI and it would not work on Macintosh.

Opinions?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

well, it depends on how wide an audience you'd like to reach. no gui means reaching only people who are not only comfortable editing files like that but who don't find that so alien to their workflow that they just don't do it. gui reaches everyone willing to run a python plug-in in poser, which is far from everyone but still a much larger group.

personally, i'm not so greedy as to ask for a gui, but i'll admit that it would be ultra-appreciated. just to be be able to browse for the file within the interface instead of going to the explorer, finding the new file, copying the location and changing the slashes to colons would be stupendous. on the other hand, that seems perfectly easy and clear to edit, imho. but i'm not afraid of code.

I would love to give you feedback on your scheme - but I have no idea what you said : /

I am: aka Velocity3d

And that answers all my questions jj :biggrin:

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Attached Link: Replace ImageMap script

nruddock already did a script for this. It only does one image at a time and is entirely gui driven.

You run the script with AMUCFS already loaded onto AM.

It will scan the shaders for image maps.

It will present a dialog, where you get to choose one of the file names. You will just have to know what it is for from the name alone.

Then you get another dialog where you choose a new file to replace it with.

Then you get another dialog where it prompts you to save the new material collection. You can skip that step and just hit cancel at that point.

So if you want to change all 5 pre-loaded iris colors, you'll have to run the script five times.

If you want to change the caucasian face color, body color, face bump, and body bump, you'll have to run it four times.

Is that clear?

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jredline:

**I have tried everything I can think of, but the hair just doesn't pop off the picture like the standard AM texture hair does.
**Could be it's because I used a 1.5 in the texture_strength on that Image_Map. The AM body hair isn't dark enough, so I increased the texture_strength to make the hairs be truly black instead of gray on the map. If the hair map you're using is already very dark on the hairs, then this will be a bad thing. If they're already black, put the texture_strength back to 1.

Also, I generate a displacement directly from the hair map. You can adjust this. (I've already added dials for this in AMUCFS version 2 which is not released yet). For now, you can find this in the existing shader, but you'll have to do it for each zone. There is a multiplier of .1 (1 tenth) that defines the height of the hair displacement. Try changing that to .2. It is also connected to a bias with value_2 = .2. Try increasing the bias to .3. Either one of those should make the hair pop more.

The multiplier is in Mul_2:Value_1. You'll find it in the second column of nodes, fifth from the bottom. The hair displacement bias is labelled "Bias" and is in the third column, fourth from the bottom.

**Another query: A non-artist, non-Poser friend of mine critiques the picture by saying: "...the muscles on his upper arms have the texture of an orange."
**That's because the AM body displacement file has some strange bumpiness that creates a sort of cellulite-looking effect on the neck and arms. I've been meaning to ask Anton why there is noise in there. It should be perfectly smooth. Try reducing the Body Displacement parameter. This will have the unfortunate consequence of reducing those bulging veins and muscles, but it will reduce the bump surface that lookes lik an orange skin.

**And finally, how do I change eye color? Do I simply pick another color out of the pose library for AM? Before or after applying AMUCFS?
**I assume you mean the iris and not the eye white. Go into the Eyes parameters. The Iris Clr 2 dial selects iris color #2, which is brown. You can blend it using values between 0 and 1. A value of 1 there will fully select iris 2. Then there's the Iris Clr 3 dial, which blends iris color #3 with the result of the previous blend. Iris #3 is green. Then there's Iris Clr 4 (brown inner, blue outer) and 5 (pale blue). Each in turn blends the next iris color with the results of the previous.

If you go into the material room you can preview the iris color without rendering. Usually the parameter dials are hidden while in the mat room. But you can display and use them interactively. Go into the mat room. Select the Iris zone. Use the menu item Window/Parameter Dials to display the dials. Now mess with the Eye dials -you'll see the results in the PoserSurface preview immediately.

You can also change the final color using the Iris Stain dials. PM:Iris Stain:Hue is the hue - 0 = red, 1 = yellow, 2 = green, 3 = cyan, 4 = blue, 5 = magenta. Values between the whole numbers will give blended versions. For example, .5 is orange. The Saturation decides how strong the hue is. Saturation = 0 means actually a shade of gray. Saturation = 1 will give you the strongest version of the hue. And finally the PM:Iris Stain:Value will lighten (greater than 1) or darken (less than 1) the iris color. Setting Value way above 1 will create the impression that the iris is glowing. Set all the Iris Clr dials to 0. Then try Iris Hue = 4, Saturation = .5, Value = 2 for a trippy looking ultra blue eye.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

**BB, I was wondering if you'd allow for people to distribute Material sets created using your shader as part of a character pack (free of course)? I know I could just as easily distribute shader pre-sets (thanks to your idiot proof instructions), but some people are too intimidated to download your shader in the first place. At the very least, if they like the results they get using my Material set, maybe they'll take the plunge themselves.
**Yeah, sure, what the heck. But it has to be free. No selling my free stuff please.

You can save the resulting shader as a material collection and distribute it with your character pack. I'd also give them the preset in case they actually do want to get and use AMUCFS. Please point them to divshare or this thread.

Which one are you going to give out? I like the RT one best, but some people may not like using raytracing just to get perfect eyes. I really don't like the eyes without the AO in them, but they're ok I guess. I suppose you could give them both.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - ok it works for me now.

i have still some questions.

is it just me or is the default shader a little dark? i guess i am using the wrong lights.
to me it looks like the scandinavian is more like the europen white people. what do you think?

bagginsbill the shader is incredible. i still dont understand how you did this. amazing.

Ice-boy:

So glad to hear you got through the issues.

As to the darkness, have you tried rendering with my light set? I agree the default skin is not as light as a northern European, but I never said it was a European. It is a generic caucasian of indeterminate origin. I do think I made him a little too pink, but you can change that in a heartbeat, with the PM:Stain:Hue parameter.

The preset I called Scandinavian is supposed to be a northern European, and the Latin preset is a southern European. I would have used the term "Aryan" but I thought Scandinavian was safer.

I do a lot of work in Sweden - those people really look like that.

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thanks

The one I've been tinkering with mostly is the big bad boy RT+Refl+AO. The results are truly fantastic (without my tinkerings), but I know the resource hit isn't to everyone's liking.

I'll have to settle for multiple versions, as you suggested. I'll get the big fella done first, apply the preset to the lower quality versions, and tweak individually where appropriate.

I'd absolutely include the preset for those that want it, and the DivShare link for those that decide to take the plunge.

I've got another (stupid) question for you. When I apply a 'Face', let's say one with facial hair, why doesn't this show on my render? What am I doing wrong? I know it's gotta be me and not the shader :).

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Do you mean preview, not render?

Are you saying the faces (beards) don't render?

If you're talking about preview, Poser is wierd that way. Textures or texture updates randomly do not show in preview. They seem to show more for me because I keep texture caching turned on in P6. I think other people don't do that, and for some reason that results in old or white preview data.

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No I mean an actual Firfely render.

I render with the default shader, then render again after selecting a face...identical.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

BB,

Thanks for all the great suggestions. Whe I first read through them, I thought, "surely the solution must be within these adjustments." So, no matter how scary it seeemed (for noob me) I tried your "hairy" suggestions...

...with unchanging results. I only tested the numbers you wrote, so I haven't experimented with higher numbers to see what would happen.

I moved on to the eyes instead.

I think there may be a snag with my installation of your free download because using Poser 7 SR2, no matter what <PM:Iris Clr> dial I turn on, I still get those beautiful baby blues.

I want brown eyes. I went into the Material Room and selected the Iris material zone as you suggested. With all 5 image maps opened (BTW, brown being Image Map 5 and <PM: Iris Clr 2> dial is supposed to create brown eyes is very confusing)

I'm assuming any changes made to those dials would be reflected in the first column's PoserSurface box dsiplay.

Again, it never changes no matter what dial I turn.

Any other info I can provide you to help solve this mystery I'm happy to supply.

Thanks

Hmmm. The face pose files are just calling python scripts. These scripts (one for each face) call a common parmatic function to go replace the filenames on the image map nodes in the various face zones.

After double clicking one, open up the mat room and check what's in the FaceClr1 image map. (On the far right of the shader) It should be changed to face01d or face01e or whatever you clicked on.

If it hasn't changed the file name, then something is wrong.

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jredline,

What you're describing actually sounds like nothing to do with iris. It sounds like you started a new session of Poser and forgot to re-activate the parmatic Updater. If you find that all your parameter changes are ignored, then that's the problem. If you find that only iris changes are ignored then I'm mystified.

The Parmatic Updater must be run every time you start poser.

Double clicking my shader automatically does that, but loading a scene where you double clicked the shader IN A PREVIOUS SESSION does not activate the updater.

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I'm at 'work' right now, so unfortunately I can't test this just yet. I'll post here once I have (shouldn't be too long).

I did notice that the material preview in the Mat Room didn't change when faces were applied, but I haven't checked whether the name had changed on the image map node.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

When you tried changes for the Jepe hair map, are you sure you did it to Skin Torso?

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Work shmork - where do you think I do all my Poser stuff?

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:)

I'm guilty of this too, but in my haste this morning I forgot my laptop.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Quote - When you tried changes for the Jepe hair map, are you sure you did it to Skin Torso?

Yes, I specifically used torso first since that's where the bulk of the hair is.

The updater: You know, I did restart Poser. But I also clicked on the ParmaticUpdater script in my script Window Menu. Here's the message I get:

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "C:Program Filese frontierPoser 7RuntimePythonposerScriptsScriptsMenuparmaticparmaticUpdater.py", line 20, in ?
from parmatic import ParmaticActor
ImportError: No module named parmatic

Now what did I screw up?

jd:

Ah I see the problem. You (and so many others) think you know where things go and don't follow directions.

You did not put parmatic in your runtime where it has to be. It HAS to be where I had it in the zip file.

Why do people keep doing this? When you get a zip file with a runtime tree in it JUST DRAG IT INTO YOUR POSER HOME.

So now I have a surprise for you jd. Because of this, NONE OF YOUR PARAMETERS HAVE EVER WORKED.

You have copied parmatic into poserScriptsScriptsMenu - IT DOES NOT GO THERE and I NEVER TOLD YOU TO PUT IT THERE. Sorry to shout but this really bunches my knickers.

The parmatic folder goes in Runtimepython, just as I gave it to you in the zip.

You may find AMUCFS is even more fun when the parameters work.

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This is straight out of the parmatic read me. I don't know how to be more clear.

--- INSTALLATION

Unzip the the files directly into your MAIN RUNTIME. Python scripts don't
work in other runtimes. Don't compress the parmatic folder - Python scripts
don't work when compressed.

Verify that the files end up in your runtime in this location:

Poser X:Runtime:Python:parmatic

In that folder you should find the following files:

init.py
lastSavePath.txt
parmaticDeleteParameters.py
parmaticMenu.py
parmaticSaveParameters.py
parmaticUpdater.py

The file parmticMenu.py is a Python buttons window menu. Run it to load the
parmatic buttons.

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Baggins,
I am seeing some odd ineractions with other figures. Specifically when applying a morph to Aiko.

repro:

Load Apollo
select initial pose from your menu
select a realistic shader setup from your sub menu
add your body lights
add Aiko complete
apply Aiko headmorph from a vendor
apply body morph from same character set

Result:
The body morph "crushes" the face on Aiko without changing any dials

Notes:
I narrowed it down to this set of steps by finding a workaround. I moved the Aiko steps ahead of Apollo's and it doesnt cause the same problem. I havent tried it with Vic4 yet. I dont know if this is a problem in Aiko, Poser or your scripts.

Another issue I ran across by mistake (mine) I went to apply your base shader pose and neglected to make sure I had Apollo selected. This made Aiko look a bit funny (of course) but when I went to "Undo", poser couldnt find the temp files needed to do the undo. Reapplying the texture to Aiko fixed it. Annoying, but worth noting.

This is a helluva fun tool, Baggins! thanks again

Injections don't normally work as well for the second figure in a scene. Create the figures seperately, add a CR2 to a folder in the figures area and then load it into the scene completed.

Quote - Injections don't normally work as well for the second figure in a scene. Create the figures seperately, add a CR2 to a folder in the figures area and then load it into the scene completed.

Ah, ok. Makes sense - Well no, it doesnt , actually- but at least it is something beyond Baggins' control.

""You did not put parmatic in your runtime where it has to be. It HAS to be where I had it in the zip file.

Why do people keep doing this? When you get a zip file with a runtime tree in it JUST DRAG IT INTO YOUR POSER HOME.""

Well I suppose Im bored and have to play devils advocate here. BUT many many many times the files in a runtime are NOT where they are suppose to be. Many of us have taken to simply extracting to dummy folders and then proceeding from there (alot of time manually dragging individual files).

However that isn't the case with BBs stuff and the readme was VERY clear on where to put things.

I am: aka Velocity3d

BB,

I get the feeling you were yelling at me. But I don't care, because you are the God of the Material Room. Yell all you want because this system is so fantastic, I'm forever grateful and you can do whatever you want.

But, a little explanation: I did originally load the Parmatic correctly into the Poser/Runtime/Python folder, but when I opened the script palette, parmatic was not there. So, I opened my "Poser 7 Revealed" book to the script section (not knowing anyhting about python/scripts) and learned that it needed to be in the scriptsmenu folder in order to show up in the menu above. So, I moved it.

Of course, I copied it back and now I know to click on an empty button in the palette to go to the Parmatic folder and run the menubuttons script. (BTW, in case you didn't know, when you go back to the main menu on the scirpt palette, the parmatic button is no longer there and needs to be run again.)

So, with everything in the correct place and all the zones changed to your suggestions, I started a new render while writing this post.

Let' see how it turned out...

Edit

Could this possibly be due to the face image maps not being in their default location?

I can't remember if I moved them, but I do have a habit of re-organising just about everything before dropping it into my runtime. It's possible I deviated from Anton's original locations.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Now that's popping!

(I think I orgasmed)

Still very much "orange" texture, but I'm just too excited to mess with anything.

I'll experiment at a later time.

Original without hair displacement map working.

Heheh. Thanks all for your patience and kindness. Sometimes I get cranky.

JJ and jdredline - I did indeed ask why and you both gave sensible answers so I'll go take a time-out in a corner for 10 minutes.

jd - You made me actually laugh out loud. Boy that guy sure looks scary hairy. I'm impressed that you managed to get it working with all those freaking nodes in the mat room.

Clawshrimp -

Moving the files could be a problem. Each face pz2 runs a python script. The python scripts are in :Runtime:Python:AMUCFS.

Each of them looks like this (showing the one for FaceColor1):

import parmatic
parmatic.ParmaticReplaceImage("FaceColor1", ":Runtime:Textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_Face1.jpg")

If the path to the face jpeg is wrong, you can fix it. If your faces are in a different path, go edit each of those to reflect where you have them. If they are in a different runtime, that's not a problem. Mine are in a separate Apollo runtime, but the runtime path resolution works anyway.

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jdredline:

I didn't know that P7 had some sort of integration of menus with Python plugins. I don't have P7. That sounds cool.

However, I will probably soon have P7. Apparently E-Frontier has noticed me. They contacted me and invited me to join their Beta program. So I'll be getting a free (YIPEE) copy of P7 shortly. So this is good because then I'll be able to design and test scripts and shaders for P7.

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So, my next problem: After getting it to work so well with that guy, I decided to go back to another project which has 2 charaters in it and apply your system to them.

Just for safety, I closed Poser altogether. Re-opened, and then opened the scene. With one of the figures>body selected, I ran the updater and here's the result:

Traceback (most recent call last):
File "C:Program Filese frontierPoser 7RuntimePythonposerScriptsScriptsMenuparmaticparmaticUpdater.py", line 131, in ?
ParmaticCameraUpdate()
File "C:Program Filese frontierPoser 7RuntimePythonposerScriptsScriptsMenuparmaticparmaticUpdater.py", line 118, in ParmaticCameraUpdate
for mat in materials:
TypeError: iteration over non-sequence

What did I screw up this time?

jdredline,

graphixa posted the same problem at RDNA

www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php

See post #13.

We don't know what the problem is. There's a prop in the scene that barfs when i ask for its materials. I don't know what it could be.

The workaround is to bypass the camera update stuff. It really isn't needed for this shader at all. Follow the instructions in that thread to edit your parmatic script and stop trying to do the camera update.

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Quote - Now that's popping....

Oh my! It gave me the urge to grab him and dip him in a bathtub full of 'Nair'
Too cute!

Bagginsbill, fantastic work on the shader. I really can't think of a superlative that would do it justice, so I've just been sitting back and staring at this thread with my jaw dropped.
(As soon as I untangle myself from coule of current projects I intend to play with it)

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Okay, that did the trick. No error messages when I run the updater from the palette and the parameter dials load up when I select them.

Something else I want to mention - not a problem.

Some people mention when they apply your shader, the figure turns white - but renders normal.

The first time I used your shader the same thing happened to me. But I thought, "better check it out in the material room." So, I switched to the material room. For each zone I selected, the material went from white to the texture preview. So, I selected all the zones one at a time and wa-la! Texture preview back in the Pose Room. (except for lashes and eyebrows - they still show white in the preview, but render normal)

Another odd thing: On one project I tested the African 2 preset. He didn't display white, but the texture preview was of a white man, but when I rendered, he was black as I had selected.

I think I know why it does that. Because AM_Body01 is the automatic selection, when I choose one of the black presets, the shader is programmed to switch to AM_Body02 and this doesn't happen until it renders. (am I close?)

Anyway, this shader you've come up with is a dream come true and I can't thank you enough. Thank goodness it was free since the name scared me off at first, but now that I know it's potential, I would have paid a very pretty penny for this shader. And if you decide to make this system for other male models - you definitely should charge for it!

I'm currently rendering an image with the AMUCFS!RT+refl+AO and "oily" selections and I can't believe my eyes!

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

JDRedLine

Quote - > Quote - Now that's popping....

...
(As soon as I untangle myself from coule of current projects I intend to play with it)

My problem is, I've already integrated this shader into my current project just for fun, but the images don't match the previous images. I'm dreading going back to my original style since I'm already past the halfway point.

All future projects will have this shader!

Yep .. the white preview is that way for me ... Basically it seems to mean old computer can't deal with the number of nodes.

Thanks BB.

I did move them, so I'll just fix the paths in the script and I'll be golden.

It's like 2.30 in the morning here, so I'll have to do this after breakfast :).

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Quote - Yep .. the white preview is that way for me ... Basically it seems to mean old computer can't deal with the number of nodes.

I think in general, Poser doesn't preview procedurals, except for it's basic diffuse color. Lot of 3D programs are like that. IIRC Max does the same. It's a normal thing. Makes you use plop/area render a lot.

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Yay - love the interest. More renders!

I think the white preview happens also with face_off's shaders. I believe it is because there really are two shader models, the old P4 model (the simple material room) and the full blown P5 model (the advanced material room).

I do not fill in any of the information for the P4 version. I know that "touching" the mat zone will update the P4 version with dumbed-down info from the P5 shader tree. This basically involves a very stupid simple thing - Poser looks for the first color image attached to the Diffuse_Color input. It plugs that into the P4 preview jigger. Now for me this happens as soon as I load the shader (in P6), but occasionally it doesn't, so I know what you guys are talking about.

There is no doubt that the preview does not analyze or use any complex shader tree information, so it doesn't know things that are obviously known inside the mat room preview.

When you select one of the black presets, you're not loading a new color image. I actually have the white and black skins loaded all the time. They both go into a Blender node. That Blender node let's you blend anywhere between fully white and fully black. This is controlled by the PM:Skin 2 Blend dial. You can choose 0 (100% caucasian), 1 (100% african), .5 (half and half), .75 (3/4 black) etc.

The preview doesn't know anything about this. It just knows that the first color image file (the caucasian) is what it's going to show you in the pose room preview.

The renders above show the default preset, but with various settings of PM:Skin 2 Blend changing.

I believe the P7 hardware-accelerated pose preview actually does try to implement the shader full shader tree in OpenGL. I'm told that my shader slows P7 down something fierce when you try to use that feature.

I haven't seen anybody besides me render the teeth. I'm particularly proud of the teeth - it's always been difficult to get them to look good. See, to get good renders, you must use IBL. But IBL tends to make the inner mouth parts glow too much. You can try AO, but that just doesn't do a good job on such complicated geometry. Poser AO is only a rough approximation and works ok for a hand or shirt close to the skin, but doesn't figure out all the nooks and crannies in the mouth. I tried many different settings for light-based AO and shader node AO - nothing worked well. So I did a trick. I hardly use any diffuse on the teeth and tongue. IBL doesn't generate any data for specular nodes - only diffuse light is generated. So the teeth and tongue are almost completely lit by specular nodes. This makes them ignore the IBL. Yet they look like diffuse, and hopefully with some subsurface scattering in there too. I thought this was a pretty clever solution.

Let's see your teeth renders. Use my lights - the face light - with really clean shadows.

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I rendered the teeth (a post over at Content Paradise) but it is pretty far away. It does work really well though. I will do up a better shot sometime soon.

Amusing myself with the Alien preset.

Be sure to click to see it at full resolution.

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Impressive work ... thanks for sharing.

The image map locations was the problem BB. All good now.

Here I had a little fun tinkering with the mole options, which are cool as hell I might add.

The morph is one of Carodan's new ones.

I apologise for the horrible JPG artifacts. I saved it as BMP, and the PC I'm on right now only has MS Paint!

BTW that alien test is soooo cool. Love the displacement.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Quote - The image map locations was the problem BB. All good now.

Here I had a little fun tinkering with the mole options, which are cool as hell I might add.

The morph is one of Carodan's new ones.

I apologise for the horrible JPG artifacts. I saved it as BMP, and the PC I'm on right now only has MS Paint!

BTW that alien test is soooo cool. Love the displacement.

what lights are you using here?
this looks amazing. is this poser 6?

Thank you iceboy!

It's a Poser 7 render with VERY slight level adjustments in Photoshop (and obvious depth of field too).

I used a simple HDR IBL and Specular setup. Two lights, that's it. In fact, I simply swapped out the HDR map from one of the default Poser 7 HDR-VFX setups with one of my own (there are hundreds of freebies all over the net).

I started with BB's preset Asian base, decreased the bump, increased the glow, fiddled with the mole dials...and voila!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

ClawShrimp - that is an excellent image. Thanks for showing it.

I don't experiment enough with lights - I've gotten so fed up with bad light sets from people that I never use anything but my hand-made IBL.

I'm looking forward to getting P7 now - it looks like the HDR IBL does work a bit better.

Keep showing stuff - it broadens my thinking.

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Only thing CS is you should have turned on shadows for the key light. The inner mouth and left ear are CG giveaways.

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You guys are making amazing stuff!!!!!!

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"Damned thief in my pockets when I ain't got got any pockets!"

Too true BB.

I don't normally have the mouth open, so it's a step I usually skip. Plus, this was a test run for the shader...it just turned out better than I expected. :)

I'm toying with another image now. I'll post the result here once I'm done.

Thanks again BB!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Holy crap ClawShrimp that looks amazing!

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

Here's a little something different :), and a great excuse to bump this thread :P

I'm working on an expression pack for my 'Deaky' character (available free over at Apollo's page), and here's one of them. I'm working on ten, but that could go up or down depending on how they come together. Unfortunately they'll have to be Pose files, not Expression/Face files as I use the morph brush pretty extensively to fix distortion, particularly around the mouth and eye-brows. I'll also have to figure out how to include scaling and translation for the teeth in said Pose file, because Apollo's default teeth size in this caricature-like head just look wrong.

This is BB's Body Builder preset at work, which I found suitably extreme for this character. The neck bulge is a little weird, but that's more the displacement map than the shader itself.

edit
I apologise for the weird strobing (kinda like wearing stripes on camera). My lame attempt at making the background a little more interesting has backfired.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Beautiful work! That is such an interesting face.

A little note on the lighting - again I'm feeling the want of clean shadows in the mouth. And if you're going for that blown out lighting effect, try reducing the Teeth brightness, so that they show some detail.

Or, lower the light, and boost the skin Glow and Specular instead of using such a hot light.

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Thanks BB!

That was really something I should have done with the Sumo render, but for this one I actually liked the super-white (or as I call them He-Man) wall of teeth.

I'll try your suggestions with my next 'realistic' render, which honestly hadn't even occured to me.

I made this guy as a brother of sorts to Carodan's Freaky morph for Apollo, which I absolutely loved (as I do ALL of his work).

Incidentally, how are you finding Poser 7's take on HDR? I think I read somewhere around here you finally took the plunge :).

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Here's a new one for me. I've already changed out 4 different characters with different textures and had no problems.

This latest character will not update the torso, or hands and feet - even though I've replaced the Image Map just like the other 4 character as show in the picture above.

Any suggestions?

Okay, I figured it out.

To replace the textures, I use a "replace material" script BB or some one else mentioned somewhere on one of these threads.

The body texture I was adding in had 2 different listings in the file selection menu. I replaced both and wa-la!

Incredibly unique looking Apollo there jdredline. I don't think I've ever seen him look quite like this before...bravo!

Is this your own dial spinning or was it one of BB's presets? And what texture is it? It's really striking!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Quote - ...Is this your own dial spinning or was it one of BB's presets? And what texture is it? It's really striking!

Oh dear! A credit check!

Let me see if I can remember - the textures are pdxjims "Apollo Lives!" with BB's Apollo shader and lights. I swapped out the image maps.

Supermodel morph is by Richard - I think - I hope I'm not wrong - aka RamWolf?

They were discussing over in another thread somewhere about how Apollo always looks the same, so Richard spun up some dial and posted it for free.

This is Jay now.

Jdredline--got a link to that thread?! That morph would make an awsome jump-point for some characters I have in mind.

Ditto!

I really need to diversify my stable of ogre's and freaks with a liberal sprinkling of finer-featured males. The face in my avatar is as close as I've gotten! i.e. not very close at all :)

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Claw, I actualy just found it. Here: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=61513&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
The link for Richard's "supermodel" is on page 7, I think.

---but, Jdredline, would you be willing to share that fine pysique you spun out above there (the freckled fellow)?

Coolio, thanks raelislington.

I'd better shoot a thank you PM to the Wolf too :)

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Quote - Claw, I actualy just found it. Here: http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=61513&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
The link for Richard's "supermodel" is on page 7, I think.

---but, Jdredline, would you be willing to share that fine pysique you spun out above there (the freckled fellow)?

Thanks so much for finding this. Because I visit so many forums, I couldn't remember which one it was where I found it.

I didn't touch the body - only the face.

His body is part of the super model morph.

New Problem:

How do I remove AMUCFS from a model?

I had experimented with the AMUCFS on a model from my current project, but the style is too different to switch on this project. So, I need my model back the way he was.

I select the Ashok texture from the Pose library and the preview shows the applied textures. Even when I go into the material room, I can see all the materials are attached to the various zones.

However, when I render, it looks like the image above.

Any ideas what's going on or how to correct?

Sorry but I do not believe you. You're saying that in the skin material zones you have a simple shader with an Image_Map like everybody uses? This is not possible.

Before you try anything else, you should select this apollo, go into the material room, and save his current settings as a new material collection. This is for two reasons. First, so we can get it back and see what's going on. Second, because that's kind of a cool cartoony shader!

When you said you "select the Ashok texture", are you talking about a material collection, a mat pose file (a normal one), or is it a fancy mat pose file that runs a python script. If it is the latter, it may be that it did not remove my shader, but merely replaced some texture file names.

The most certain way to get your entire set of shaders back is to

a) Load a brand new apollo, apply the Ashok stuff you did in the past, and save the result as a new material collection.

or

b) Load some other scene where you know the figure has the right shaders. Save the shaders as a new material collection.

Then - open your current project, select apollo, and apply the material collection you just saved.

Also, to remove the Parmatic dials, select Apollo and run the Parmatic Delete Parameters script.

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In my attachment, you can see I saved the material collections in the library and it shows the Ashok texture. But when I apply it to a whole different model - it stills creates the "silver Surfer" look.

You see on the right, the nodes showing their simple Ashok image maps.

And in the middle is the rendered image.

Did you save that collection from the messed up figure or a working figure.

If you load a new apollo into that scene and apply that collection how does he render?

It sure looks like you've found some hidden toon rendering option.

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Agreed.

Accidental or not, that's a pretty cool effect :).

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Quote - Did you save that collection from the messed up figure or a working figure.

If you load a new apollo into that scene and apply that collection how does he render?

It sure looks like you've found some hidden toon rendering option.

I deleted all the nodes so the textures are no longer present. I saved it as a material collection. When I load it onto a whole new model and render, it still gives the same "Silver Surferish" effect.

I have no use for the effect and am willing to share it. I just don't know how.

Quote - Yep .. the white preview is that way for me ... Basically it seems to mean old computer can't deal with the number of nodes.

I have Poser 7 SR2 and this white preview sometimes happens to me.

Work around #1: Go into the Material Room and select the material library. Click on "Add New Material to Library" - the plus sign button in the library.

Did all the textures show up? Mine did. Cancel out the "add new material". And they're still there when you go back into the Pose Room.

Work around #2: When you go into the Material Room with your Apollo body model selected, the "skinbody" zone updates the texture preview. You can go through the zone menu and select each one. The textures will all update from white. And it stays that way when you go back into the Pose Room.

Hope all this helps!

Keeping this alive...

At least for me.

Hi,

THis shader has so much potential that I can see. Unfortunately that I might did something wrong on the installation or the process and get this error when I load the preset face.
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "", line 2, in ?
File "D:Program FilesCurious LabsPoser 6RuntimePythonparmatic__init__.py", line 29, in ParmaticReplaceImage
inp.SetString(value)
poser.error: Invalid file name: File doesn't exist
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "", line 2, in ?
File "D:Program FilesCurious LabsPoser 6RuntimePythonparmatic__init__.py", line 29, in ParmaticReplaceImage
inp.SetString(value)
poser.error: Invalid file name: File doesn't exist

I install parmatic 2 and the shader
I load Apollo
I run the parmatic updater python
I load the AMUCFS no trace
I choose the face and that what I got.

I can get only one type of body text and face 01 only.

The shader dial works fine.

Would you please help me out for this trouble?

Peter

Hmm interesting. Because of the error message:

poser.error: Invalid file name: File doesn't exist

I would guess the face texture image you're trying to load doesn't exist :biggrin:

The Faces folder contains pz2 files that call parmatic to change the files associated with the Image_Map nodes in the shader. I tried to reproduce your problem by moving one of the face files out of my runtime and then tried to use the preset to load it. Instead of getting a Python error as you did, I got a Poser dialog box saying that Poser could not find the file.

I'm using Poser 6 SR3 for this test. Perhaps this behavioral difference is because you're not using SR3? I don't know.

In any case, please check that Anton's various face files are in one of your runtimes at this location:

:Runtime:textures:Anton'sApolloMaximus:Body:APM_Facexx.jpg

where xx is actually the particular face number you're looking for.

I do not believe this is an issue with external runtimes, because I have all my Apollo stuff in an external runtime and it works fine.

If the file location is not the problem, come back and we'll try some more things.

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Hi there, Bagginsbill, I know I'm just repeating what everyone else has said, but GREAT WORK!! Thank you so much for being so generous (and so kind and patient in your responses). I just wanted to mention that I finally got Parmatic 2 to work in Poser 7 on the mac. It's been very frustrating both with this and with the Matmatic. I could never tell if it was a Poser 7 problem, a mac problem, or I just messed up somewhere, so I've only been working on it on and off for the past month (well, I've only been working in Poser for about 3 months anyway). I saw the post for matmatic on OSX at Runtime (http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?forum_id=92&ShowMessage=321622) and tried it and it worked for me. Woohoo! Then I thought, well, why not? and copied the parmatic folder into the same place inside the Poser package (didn't delete the old set but maybe should) and just like magic, it worked! Those damn dials finally showed up! I get that white thing happening that is mentioned here but it clears up when I "touch" them so no biggee. Now maybe I can get around to playing. I, too, would prefer one of the girls but no hurry. And I'm thrilled that you're going to be working in P7 now. Thanks again!

droderick,

Great!. And yes I'm already working in P7. But I'm not seeing any of these problems about matmatic and parmatic needing to be in a different folder. This must be a Macintosh thing only. I'm glad you guys figured this out. I have P7 because EF gave it to me - I wasn't going to buy it. And I'm not going to have a MAC unless Apple gives me one, too. :biggrin:

I'll need to clarify this for Mac users in the installation guides.

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Here's my latest go of it :)

Thanks Bagginsbill for all your hard work on this.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1485862&member

That looks great Jeremy

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

The download counter has reached 500!

Not many pics out there in the galleries. Why is that? PapaBlueMarlin has the most so far. Are the rest of you not using this?

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we are using it. i dont think my renders are good enough to post it.

just to say, i haven't used it yet. swamped with projects and stuff to learn. i've been using the inverse r squared light material you posted in that thread on trying to make something glow, but i haven't posted an image for review yet.

i think it would be hard to find in the galleries when someone did use AMUCFS. lots of people just put, "thanks for viewing," or some such, and don't list the items in their scene. still others only list commericial products.

and by the way, the inverse r squared thread is the best and most useful thread drift i've ever come across.

Quote - i think it would be hard to find in the galleries when someone did use AMUCFS. .

You got that right. It would be buried under the TON of "look-a-like" Vicky pics that get posted at light speed.

Most people are putting UCFS or AMUCFS or Bagginsbill in their comments - I search for those all the time. It's cool to see what's done with it.

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I have V4UCFS and V3UCFS basically working but I'm having a difficult time trying to figure out how to deal with the texture file issue. There is no standard set for either that i can count on you having. So i need to make it easier to plug in your textures.

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I know it's pretty simplistic, but can't you just rename the nodes "Texture Map Here" and "Bump Map Here" in the mt5 file? It's what I did with the UBSS to remind me what goes where in case of a brain fart. ~lol~

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

They already are named like that. But it's still a pain to go through all the mat zones, unless you use the matmatic script itself.

Trying to learn to make a Poser XML UI for use in Poser so you can choose the files with a GUI.

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I'll be looking forward to your next shaders :)

Not a "real" solution to your problem, but a useful tip for those that haven't discovered this maybe...

Once you've set up your shader with the texture map(s) for the first zone you can right-click with the mouse and "Select All" then click "Copy. Once you've done that you can select each mat zone in turn, right-click again, hit "Paste," and the whole shader is applied to that part. It saves a whole Hell of a lot of time believe me.

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

slinger,

Doesn't that leave all the exsting nodes too? Meaning, when you paste 100 nodes into one that already has 100 nodes, there are now 200 nodes. I know the old ones are disconnected, but each time you do this it grows the shader data so that previews become a pain. I think after you paste, you want to click the wacro that removes disconnected nodes.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Just wanted to add that this shader is incredible, and has given me renewed enthusiasm for Poser.

I'll be sure to include UCFS in my comments hence forth! :P

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Quote - slinger,

Doesn't that leave all the exsting nodes too? Meaning, when you paste 100 nodes into one that already has 100 nodes, there are now 200 nodes. I know the old ones are disconnected, but each time you do this it grows the shader data so that previews become a pain. I think after you paste, you want to click the wacro that removes disconnected nodes.

Err..yes, I should have added that bit about the "Remove Detached Nodes" wacro shouldn't I? ~DOH!~

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

I wonder if you could set it up like Real Skin Shader so that it can apply to textures already on the figure...

Quote - I wonder if you could set it up like Real Skin Shader so that it can apply to textures already on the figure...

From a programming point of view (not that I program with Python, but in a general sense of my experience in other languages) that could make things a whole lot easer. If there was an already applied texture that the new program could capture and use...

You'd need to set up seperate variables for head and body (and perhaps things like the eye nodes, especially the cornea?) but all in all it sounds like a promising route to try.

The liver is evil - It must be punished.

In referrence to HyperREAL it'd be fanstastic if the script actually applied the material. We could render, and if the last tweak actually worked, then create the Material Room Preset.

Quote - ...The only way you can claim to know it is not running would be if you have moved shader dials, but confirmed that nothing is changing in the material room. Have you done that. Most people don't even know how to get the parameters up while in the material room.

Go into the mat room.
Select one of the skin zones so you can see the skin in the preview of the root node.
Use the Window menu to display the parameters window.
Change the "Skin 2 Blend" parameter from 0 to 1. If parmatic is running, the mat room will refresh and you'll see the black skin. If something is wrong, you won't.

...

If you're still convinced that parmatic is not running, open the parmaticUpdater.py file. Change the line that says verbose = 0 to verbose = 1. Then run the script and leave the Python window open. Then move a dial. If it says "Parmatic Callback" (or similar - it's not in front of me) then the callback is working and something else is wrong.

What version of Poser? What SR?

Here I am again. I've switched to a Xeon Mac Pro. Does your shader work on Mac?

If so, here's my latest message I'm getting when I try to run the updater:

================= Parmatic Updater 2.0 =================
Traceback (most recent call last):
File "/Applications/Poser 7/Runtime/Python/parmatic/parmaticUpdater.py", line 21, in ?
from parmatic import ParmaticActor
ImportError: No module named parmatic

I'm sure this has been covered before but I don't have time to investigate.

All that I've quoted above, I've tried and I get negative results.

Help, again!

It does work on a Mac. I think you need to reinstall parmatic.

mungopark had problems with matmatic on OSX, probably parmatic is the same.

He found that you have to install my folders not in Runtime:Python but in some other folder called PythonExtensions

I don't know why the MAC Poser is different.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - mungopark ... found that you have to install my folders not in Runtime:Python but in some other folder called PythonExtensions....

HOLY Cow! I'm about as new to Mac as I am Poser and I would have never figurd that out. What an odd way to do things!

Funny though, I re-read through this entire thread to look for the info only to find it as the penultimate post on the previous page.

BB, that is defintely vidal info for your user manual! Don't lose it!

Oh, BTW, I'm all good again. it worked like a charm but I have a new thing: the display window stays open and here's a sample of the many many lines that print evey time I do something:

     kEventCodeKEYSCHANGED
------ Parmatic Updating Parameters
      kEventCodeKEYSCHANGED
      kEventCodeITEMRENAMED
       Unlisted values 40000
------ Parmatic Updating Parameters
      kEventCodeKEYSCHANGED
      kEventCodeITEMRENAMED
       Unlisted values 40000
------ Parmatic Updating Parameters
      kEventCodeKEYSCHANGED
------ Parmatic Updating Parameters
      kEventCodeKEYSCHANGED
------ Parmatic Updating Parameters
      kEventCodeKEYSCHANGED
      kEventCodeACTORSELECTIONCHANGED
------ Parmatic Updating Parameters

So, here I go again - what did I screw up this time?

jdredline,

What we are about to address is a common failing of humans, and perhaps you did NOT fail in this, so please do not be insulted if I accuse you wrongly. I have to address it first because it happens so often and I waste SO much time because of it.

OK here's the deal. The older version of Parmatic (Parmatic 1) printed stuff. The newer version (Parmatic 2) does not. Every time anybody has reported printing going constantly, it was because they installed Parmatic 1 and Parmatic 2 and they were RUNNING PARMATIC 1.

If you have Parmatic 1, you should probably delete it.

Parmatic 2 is a whole folder, where Parmatic 1 was just one file.

On the other hand, Parmatic 2 can print constantly like Parmatic 1 did. Did you change the verbose settings?

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

BB,

False alarm. After a restart it never came back and the shader is working as expected.

However, I did have another good laugh at your last post. Its so typical of brainiacs like yourself not to have any people-skills. The way you scold me for being an idiot is an absolute blast! Not knowing a polite or kind way to state things. Just coldly and bluntly calling it out as if you were Data or Seven of Nine from the Star Trek series. I love it.

Don't get wrong. As I stated before, please, yell at me all you want when I'm an idiot for I worhsip your brain for creating and sharing this fantastic free shader for AM!

Can I get a user's manual, please? I'm not the "go in and experiment" kind of guy. I'm the "open up the manual and learn what everything does" kind of guy. Then, once I know what things do, I experiment.

this is not apollo but james.i used the apollo shader. i just love thsi skin shader because it looks so good.
i was also playing with the lights.

Well done! That's really looking great.

See, I don't need to do everything for every figure.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

thanks

one thing that i noticed last week is that with your infinite light you can make the shadow more then 1.
for example in the second pic i used: shadow 1.300

how did you do that?

Quote - thanks

one thing that i noticed last week is that with your infinite light you can make the shadow more then 1.
for example in the second pic i used: shadow 1.300

how did you do that?

I didn't do anything to make that happen. I didn't know that it happened. Wierd. I just clicked the plus sign and saved my lights.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - > Quote - thanks

one thing that i noticed last week is that with your infinite light you can make the shadow more then 1.
for example in the second pic i used: shadow 1.300

how did you do that?

I didn't do anything to make that happen. I didn't know that it happened. Wierd. I just clicked the plus sign and saved my lights.

interesting. have you tryed it?

bookmarked

Hi BagginsBill I posted this on the forums at CP (Im BJ there) in the Image tribute thread after I saw your post with that new ghoul preset Thanks. I would have posted in the developers forum in the V4 UCFS thread ( to get your attention faster)but this thread seemed more relevent.

From the Apollo forum/ Image tribute to Anton and Apollo thread at CP

"Hey thanks BagginsBill. Hopefully you will see this post because I have few nice suggestions for your shader that would make it even more versitile.

I would like the ability to control nail color and maybe specular for it.
Now since Apollo already has a nails material group no mask map would be needed.
I would also like the ability to control nipple color. This one a mask map
would be needed but the good thing is it can be made easy by anyone. Even
myself ( I freely admit Im no texture artist but Im pretty good at post work so I know I could make one.)

So what do you think? Is it possible we might see this in an update. Id pay $

That and a Big Pdf manual compiling all your tips on various subjects at Rendo,RuntimeDna etc. Id pay extra $ for that.Lol

Really there's so much good info out there and Im trying to learn but it's sometimes hard to find and there's not enough time in the day. Most of it is over my head but the more I read and experiment the more it sinks in."

baginsbill,

I'd just like to say thanks.

"Thanks." :)

I've bookmarked this thread and others regarding your lightsets and shaders. I've been trying to learn more about lighting and your posts and downloads have done wonders for explaining the principles.

Thank you for adding to my personal enjoyment of this hobby! Great work!

Well, this freebie has rekindled my interest in Apollo M... I've been wanting a more realistic male figure for a long time and had forgotten about AM. Many thanks for your generosity.

Have a great Xmas and a peaceful, happy and prosperous new year

DD

Bill
This is a great addition to Apollo. I like how realistic it makes him. I do have a question regarding applying the shaders. I know I'm doing something wrong because when I apply the shader tree, the dials are there but it has a minus sign instead of a plus. Thanks.

Bill
Nevermind, I got it. This works great, thanks for the new script.

Hey Bagginsbill,

I think your AMUCFS may be too complicated for close-ups. I tried twice to render this picture.

My Xeon Mac Pro Quad core spun its wheels for an hour and a half and then finsihed with the insert image.

Any idea what's going on here?

JDRedLine

You evidently have something else going on there because I rendered this image in about a minute. And, I dont' have a Mac Pro Quad. I have a PC with a 300MHz hyperthreading processor and 2GB RAM. NNot sure why your having a problem. The AMUCFS is awesome.

I can render it pretty quickly on my Mac.

I know this matters. Among those doing the speed test,were you on P6 or P7?

I believe P7 has a problem with extereme closeup when using displacement maps.

I can get P7 to render at a crawl even with a simple sphere and a single node plugged into displacement on the sphere.

When it goes super slow, it usually is because it is out of memory and is swapping. When I do a super closeup in P7, my memory shoots over 2 Gigabytes and swapping then ruins the performance.

I dismissed it as a fluke when I hit this, because I was just amusing myself and didn't really need the extreme closeup.

JDRedline - try extreme closeup on a sphere, using a turbulence node for displacement. Get close and closer. Does it use more memory? If so, we should start a new thread about this.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Oh and when I say extreme closeup, I mean that the bumps on an orange-sized sphere should look like huge rocks.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

P7 does seem to have trouble with closeups in general--i haven't done your sphere test, but i've had P7 poof/disappear during many closeups, enough times to see a pattern....

lost in the wilderness

Poser 13, Poser11, Win7Pro 64, now with 24GB ram

ooh! i guess i can add my new render(only) machine! Win11, I7, RTX 3060 12GB

My Freebies

Ooh, Smith-Micro -- where's that P7 SR3?

Oh wait, they're still trying to figure out how to replace the e-frontier logos over at Content Paradise to the new SM ones.... once they figure that out, we might see that SR3.
-- Jeff

bagginsbill
i am looking at the nodes but i can not find the bump on the face.
can you explain how you did the bump on the face or just on the nose?

thanks.

i guess you used spots? but it looks like its rotated.

Riddick Test

Damn, but this looks cool!

Quote - Hi BagginsBill I posted this on the forums at CP (Im BJ there) in the Image tribute thread after I saw your post with that new ghoul preset Thanks.

...

"Hey thanks BagginsBill. Hopefully you will see this post because I have few nice suggestions for your shader that would make it even more versitile.

I would like the ability to control nail color and maybe specular for it.
Now since Apollo already has a nails material group no mask map would be needed.

I would also like the ability to control nipple color. This one a mask map
would be needed but the good thing is it can be made easy by anyone. Even
myself ( I freely admit Im no texture artist but Im pretty good at post work so I know I could make one.)

So what do you think? Is it possible we might see this in an update. Id pay $

That and a Big Pdf manual compiling all your tips on various subjects at Rendo,RuntimeDna etc. Id pay extra $ for that.Lol

Really there's so much good info out there and Im trying to learn but it's sometimes hard to find and there's not enough time in the day. Most of it is over my head but the more I read and experiment the more it sinks in."

Hi JB/BJ. Sorry I missed this and never answered. I have too much going on.

Controlling mask effects (something like a transmap but used to choose between multiple material effects on the same material zone) and dual-materials (multiple colors, multiple finishes) is something that will be built into VSS and very easy to do.

I'm trying to re-arrange my consulting work so I can devote 40% of my time to graphics. So far that's been impossible. Still I'm working on it.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Quote - bagginsbill
i am looking at the nodes but i can not find the bump on the face.
can you explain how you did the bump on the face or just on the nose?

thanks.

i guess you used spots? but it looks like its rotated.

Ice-boy:

To really understand the shader, you must look at the matmatic script.

It is in Runtime:libraries:Pose:Apollo_UCFS:AMUCFS.mm1.txt

That file is the master file that produces all of the shaders for AMUCFS. There is quite a bit of "intellectual property" in that file and if you want to know how things work, you should study that.

The pores on the nose and cheeks are not from Spots nodes - that would be far too simple.

Look in the script for the "Pores" method. It begins with this:
**# This method generates pores. It was adapted from my Polkadot Matmatic script!
def Pores(n = 200, mask = None):
# n is how many dots per unit in U and V
**
That method generates a shader network for the bump and a mask to selectively darken the face where the pores are deepest. It is based on the idea of dividing the UV space into tiny diamond shapes, and assigning a random circle with a random radius and position into each of those diamonds. These random circles are then used to generate thousands of different tornado shaped depressions on the face.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

If you continue to read the scrip you'll see the Skin Shader.

That's where I use Spots - for freckles and moles and capillaries and other skin color irregularities - 5 Spots nodes in all.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

thanks

Quote - Drum roll please ....... after weeks of work - it's ready.

The Unbelievably Complicated Figure Shader for Apollo Maximus is finished. The shader system uses the standard textures that come with AM. All of the new features are done with procedural shaders. There are over 120 nodes in the face shader, and dozens more on the other zones.

Over 40 figure dials let you adjust the shaders from the pose room. No need to navigate the shader tree in the material room.

Also, I've published a new version of parmatic. You need that to make this shader system do the shader parameters on the figure. I've also published my light set.

With this shader system you can get hundreds of distinct looks from this one set of textures. It comes with many presets to help get you started.

Click here for the AMUCFS Shader thread at RDNA

Click here for the Parmatic 2 thread at RDNA

Click here for my light thread at RDNA

These links are no longer valid. So I did a search for AMUCFS at RDNA and found the thread, but no link to the shader on that page that I could see:
www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php

Anyone have any clue how to get a copy of the shader, please?

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

RobynsVeil - the thing is that it's very pre-VSS. iirc, no linearizing, which is so much of the power of VSS. not to say you shouldn't find it. i'm not sure how to, if you can't get it by searching RDNA. just an fyi.

Apparently there was a mm1 script that came with it, cobaltdream, that somehow incorporated Parmatic stuff into the shader. I was going to have a look at the script to see if I could see if I could get by this issue:
www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php
that I'm having with Parmatic.

My understanding is that the script was included in the pz2 files...

Thanks for that, anyway.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

oh!

well, i have a copy. i'm pretty sure bagginsbill wouldn't mind if i shared code with you. do you know what you're looking for? there's a few different scripts.

actually, i'd bet his water would be a better example of Parmatic.

http://www.runtimedna.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22760&highlight=bagginsbill+water+parmatic

and duh! i didn't re-read the earlier posts in this thread. i'll go look for Runtime:libraries:Pose:Apollo_UCFS:AMUCFS.mm1.txt.

Thanks, cobaltdream - you're a treasure! Having a look now at the Water.mm1.txt thingie... yep, you're right, good examples of setting up PM: nodes. Now, to get that other problem solved: how to save them so that they get assigned to the right group properly when you double-click on the pz2.

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand]

Metaphor of Chooks

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Unbelievably Complicated Figure Shader for Apollo Maximus (AMUCFS)

From the Apollo forum/ Image tribute to Anton and Apollo thread at CP