I'm seriously considering trying for the third or fourth time to create a V4 character pack that Daz deems worthy of brokerage on their site.  I've been told that the folks at Daz can be very "esoteric" about their criteria, and I know by experience that they take forever and a day to respond to your inquiries unless you keep them on their toes with constant follow-up messages.

Anyway, in order to give my character pack the best shot of making the cut this time, I'd like to ask any of the more experienced artists to critique my work and make suggestions on how I might polish it off or give it that extra something that will catch Daz's eye.

Please take a few minutes to peruse these sample images and let me know your thoughts.  My goal was to create an exotic young woman with a moderate tan, a lovely face, soulful eyes, and a body that's alluring without being over-the-top.  Let me know what you think of these ambitions and how I've lived up to them (or failed to).

Some of you have helped me out before, and those of you who have probably know that my main weakness is eye texturing.  So, here's a close-up of the eyes for your scrutiny.

These images were rendered using the Studio light arrangement from Daz's Global Lighting Pack 2.

The eyebrows are trans-mapped for easy matching with hair color (as is the hair in the nether regions).  The only drawback is that I don't know how to create a facial MAT pose that leaves the color diffusion of the eyebrows unchanged from its previous value, so applying make-up will probably reset the eyebrows to the default color (black).  I plan to create the make-ups sometime today.

Also, I'd like to ask for volunteers to beta-test the actual content and maybe even do a few artistic renders to see how well she holds up with an artist other than me.

Thanks in advance!

Ok...here goes...no holds barred honesty :)

I really like the face. Her features are generic and don't hint to any particular ethnicity.

I don't like the eyes though.  They look plastic. And the iris look like they have cateracts because they are cloudy/blurred.  The iris looks like it has a drop shadow to it also (left side when looking at the computer). They just lack life and realism.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

well you asked for advise and thats what I'll give you but I do have alot and I hate to type so here is some of the bigger problems.. keep in mind I am a very picky person ^^... I can see a very clear seem where you mirrored the face you should go over that with a patch tool, ad some brighter highlights around the eyes chin and nose, the eyes are dead looking you shout ad some fake reflections to them and maybe make them a little higher in contrast, the eyebrows look painted on and I would need to see the body alot better to give you any advice on that.

    please keep in mind I am trying to help I mean no disrespect ^^
       It looks very nice from what I can see I am just very picky

I echo Acadia's comments and add that the eyebrows need work.  They are too harsh and have a definite painted on look about them.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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To a certain extent, it really depends what kind of character you are after as to where you need to take her.

If you are gunning for ultra-realism, the textures need a lot of work and you need more assymmetry in the face. If you are looking for anime-esque you are closer.

Body morph looks promising.

Klutz :0)

********************************************************************************************************************

Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

I've taken some of your advice and made some adjustments to the eyes and eyebrows.  This is the result:

Klutz, could you please elaborate on that "textures need alot of work" comment?  I am aiming for realism (with the exception that asymmetry isn't a big concern of mine).

Attached Link: http://buytaert.net/cache/images-miscellaneous-2006-eye-500x500.jpg

Hmmm, other than getting rid of the drop shadow to the left of the iris, I'm not seeing any difference in the eyes.  They still have that plastic look to them and the iris and pupil still  look like it is cloudy and has a film over it.  The problem could be a result of the gausean blur on the eye reflection. 

If you look at actual heathy eyes, the iris isn't cloudy

Here is an example of a nice healthy looking eye...it's "clear" and glass-like....almost like a shiney marble.

Here are some other images:

http://www.martinmurphy.ca/eye.jpg

http://www.daveltd.com/photo/rolls/digital/kaneez-right-eye-2155.jpg

http://www.digiteck3d.com/forum_images/workwip/eyeFaceL.jpg

[http://michelemiller.blogs.com/marketing_to_women/eye.bmp

](http://michelemiller.blogs.com/marketing_to_women/eye.bmp)http://photo.net/photo/pcd0865/rachel-eye-2.4.jpg

http://wvs.topleftpixel.com/photos/eye_macro_a95.jpg

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Better?

Hmm...Change the reflection map on the eyes. Or delete it complitely and add a raytraced reflection. You could allso add some ambience to the irises. Like ambience value 0.2 and plug the texture map on  the ambient colour. But mainly the reflection map on the eyes/cornea needs to be more defined. Other than that I think she looks just fine. Alltho you could add a blin node to the skin textures. (assuming DaZStudio has one.)

-Morbo will now introduce the candidates - Puny Human Number One, Puny Human Number Two, and Morbo's good friend Richard Nixon.
-Life can be hilariously cruel

Better still?

Hmmm, a smidge better, but they still look like plastic doll's eyes.

Have you looked into merchant resource kits?  They have them for all kinds of things including eyes. Most are created from actual photographs of real eyes.

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=52555&

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=53131&

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=35913&Start=31&SearchTerm=resource

 http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=41368&

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=52996&Start=121&SearchTerm=Resource

There are lots more if you go the MP and search "resource".

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

The eyes look plastic and dry

Quote -
Klutz, could you please elaborate on that "textures need alot of work" comment?  
I am aiming for realism (with the exception that asymmetry isn't a big concern of mine).

 

Well, essentially, levels of detail.. Also the textures seem very even. 
They look very hand-painted. That is OK for Fantasy -Fae use, but wanting if you are looking for realism.

If you are looking for realism,ultimately assymmetry has to figure in there.

Klutz :0)

********************************************************************************************************************

Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

The painted highlights need to go. Right now they have lighting on one side for one eye and then lighting on the other side for the other eye. It also looks like you either have the map on the cornea or you aren't doing the texture totally in the center.

Actually, these eyes already are mostly the product of me combining and editing pieces of 2 or 3 merchant resources.  That pretty much goes for the whole texture set as well.   The reflection map  (or, technically, the Tear/Eye_Surface map) was created essentially from scratch, though.

Anway, here's the latest:

For a change of pace, here' s how she looks from a different angle with different hair and eye colors.

Further thoughts?

Iuvenis_Scriptor - I don't confess to being an expert & I've never made anything for sale but what stands out to me when seeing characters in the marketplace is a look which quite obviously says this is V4, which does put me off unless she has amazing textures.  Don't get me wrong, apart from the eyes & eyebrows which has already been mentioned here, I like the fact you're attempting to create a product. You say you want realism, I think her face should be morphed more to take her away from an obvious plastic V4, and the skin texture, this is crucial. If someone wants to do a portrait then those textures have to hold up. I really hope you succeed in what you're doing here, good luck!

Iuvenis_Scriptor,

Do you use specular and displacement/bump maps?  Doing so will add more realism to your character.  Material room settings are very important, as well.   As for your face morph, it's too generic, as others have stated.  She doesn't have an 'exotic' look, at all.  It would probably help for you to take a look at the V4 character sets for sale on DAZ, to get an idea of what they are looking for in terms of quality.**

**

The eyes still have a very matte look to them, where they should be glossy or shiny.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Quote - The eyes still have a very matte look to them, where they should be glossy or shiny.

Matte!!!  That's the term I was looking for. Thank you!  I swear I'm so forgetful that sometimes the most simple words will elude me.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I'll be blunt, but hopefully unoffensive: This looks incredibly remeniscent of your previous attempt at a sell-able V4 character.

The morph is far too similar to default V4, to the point where unless they were side-by-side, I'd swear this WAS default V4. The trademark wide eyes and pin nose are there in all their glory. The same goes for the body.

Your texture is ok for personal use, but as mentioned above looks very flat, and in my opinion lo-res (particularly the eyes). It really looks as though a sub-par photo has been pasted onto the UV map, with very little gone into advanced shader options. Take a look at FaceOff's work (even on the included V4 texture); or for something really incredibly look at BagginsBill's great Apollo shader. I'm not saying copy them, but at least learn from what they've achieved.

Ultimately if you want to sell this character it has to at least be of the same quality as other vendor's work (your competitors, if you will). A unique morph and a quality texture are paramount.

Your concept is sound, but your 'product' doesn't reflect it.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

What does "matte" mean?

ClawShrimp, first let me say that I respect your willingness to be so brutally honest.  One thing I'd like people here to know about me is that I don't get offended easily.  Disappointed in the reception of my work, yes.  Unwilling to take various opinions and critiques into consideration and use them to improve my work, never.  Criticism is improvement waiting to happen.

Having said that, allow me to respond to some of your key points as well as some others' posts.

Honestly, I've seen V4 textures on sale here at 'Rosity that look more unrealistically smooth than the texture I've created.  One of my major goals was to avoid both that too-smooth look and the other extreme, 'cause I've also seen textures that look dry and almost cracked to me. 

This may look incredibly like my previous character because there are simply some characteristics that characterize my own particular style, and those characteristics are obviously standing out to you much more than the distinctions I've tried to give this character.

Regarding the level of deviation from a standard, out-of-the-box V4, let's do a direct comparison.

Admittedly, any mildly experienced Poser artist could probably tell that Natalie (my character) is based on V4.  While I agree that a certain amount of distinction is necessary and preferable, I don't think one should ever let the drive to hide the V4 base under a myriad of morphs and textures overshadow the more important goal of overall beauty.

I do use bump maps regularly.  My skin textures use bump maps, and there's also a very slight highlight applied to them.  I have no skills whatsoever with skin shaders and minimal skills in the Advanced Material Room.

**Iuvenis_Scriptor - I actually think your comparison here is a good one for two reasons:

1 - Aside from the skin texture only slight modifications to the face seem to have been made. I understand your reasons for not wanting to go too far with the morphs but remember that when people are willing to part with hard earned money they want to see something different, something real. I doubt they'd want a morph that seems to have been made with just a couple of dial turns.
2 - The texture on the default V4 is far more realistic. OK, they are different skin types but nevertheless it's the detail that matters. I do however, like the tone of your characters skin, I just feel the detail would greatly improve it.

Sorry to be harsh, I really want you to succeed with this. It's just that I, & many others here, have spent alot of money on characters & textures so when we decide to buy a new one, the quality has to be there. I'm actually still amazed at some of the 'average' stuff that gets sold here. Don't get me wrong, this is not a direct criticism at anyone, I admire people for taking up the challenge to create something for sale purposes. I always create my own figures but have never made anything for sale. I can imagine all the work, dedication & pain that goes into doing it.**

Quote - **Iuvenis_Scriptor - I actually think your comparison here is a good one for two reasons:

1 - Aside from the skin texture only slight modifications to the face seem to have been made. I understand your reasons for not wanting to go too far with the morphs but remember that when people are willing to part with hard earned money they want to see something different, something real. I doubt they'd want a morph that seems to have been made with just a couple of dial turns.**

I agree with that. I haven't used V4 so I haven't paid much attention to what she looks like "out of the box", but with that side-by-side comparison I can certainly see that there isn't much difference between the 2 at all. Perhaps a bit in the eyes and a wee bit in the nose but other than that they look the same. I know when I beta test a character package for someone, or buy one, and I see that the face and body are hardly changed at all from default, I am grossly disappointed.

When I buy a character addon I want it to change the base figure into something that looks unique and different from the base figure. If I wanted "base Vicky", all I would do is apply a texture. I don't need to spend any more money to do that because there are gads of textures in my runtime and even more in the MP's and free around the poser community.

I think you need to do a whole lot more dial turning there :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I hope you don't mind, but I did a novice try at a morph animation. This gives a better idea of the chnages that have been made between V4 base and Natalie.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Actually, there's a bit more to the distinction than the eyes and the nose.  Here's a list of the features I gave Natalie:

EYES
-   slightly enlarged
-   slanted
-   almond-shaped
-   eyelids thinned

NOSE
-   slightly narrowed nose
-   slightly widened ridge and bridge
-   somewhat deeper, more curved nose ridge slope
-   tip points a little upwards
-   shallowed (i.e. decreased protrusion from the face)
-   smaller nostrils
-   septum raised slightly and widened

MOUTH
-   bottom edge of lower lip raised
-   mouth narrowed and shrunk
-   top edge of upper lip raised slightly
-   fuller lips (i.e. thickened)
-   slight poutiness

OVERALL FACE
-   rounded
-   higher, slightly pronounced cheekbones
-   narrowed chin
-   higher-sloped jawline

I may be forgetting a few, but those are all the important ones.  In checking the code for my head INJ pose, I find that there are a total of 45 morph dials whose values change from the default.  Would you recommend using more morphs or intensifying the ones I've already used?

That morph animation is cosmically ironic, since I myself just dabbled in face morph animations for the first time last night.  I can't get any more advanced than something that just seems to fade rather than actually morph into another, though.

**Iuvenis_Scriptor - It's probably not how many dials you turn, but how much & in which combination. Is there a particular look you're after with Natalie, if so then maybe you could try & find a photo of someone off the net & make some changes which could resemble her. reference can be a good thing.

Acadia - Cool animation, it really shows what changes have been made. I know they're only slight, but you can see what's been done.**

You say you changed a number of morphs, but the results don't reflect that. The changes are too subtle...minimal...hardly noticeable.

What I would personally suggest is that you change your  focus. Instead of focusing on trying to create a character to sell at Daz, I would work on trying to create a character, period!

Character creation isn't an overnight study. It takes months and even years of practice  to create a really good character and texture.  You can look in the MP here and see who is "novice" and decided they wanted to get poser to make some quick money and put up a store with their very first creations, and those who have dedicated themselves to the craft and worked for months and months to perfect it.

I suggest you look through magazines or on the net  for pictures of pretty women and practice recreating them in Poser.  Take pictures of your friends and family and try and recreate them in Poser. This way you have an image to work from and a set goal that you need to achieve IE: "I need V4 to look like my Aunty June"

The best way to create anything is to have an actual finished image in your head about what you want to achieve.

You seem hesitant to change V4 beyond a certain degree.  Turn those dials, work those features.  Put a picture of V4 on a flat square in the material room and have it sitting beside the figure you are working on.  Look at the V4 picture and do something different...extreme. Don't just change the facial features, adjust the head, the cheeks, ears.... just turn those dials more than a couple of degrees.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Oh-ho-ho!  My first Poser project was a celebrity look-alike, and I've tried it repeatedly for weeks at a time since then.  Trying to make figures look like actual people has just never worked out very well for me.  I've found that creating a face without any specific model often produces prettier results, at least with the way I do things in Poser.  I guess some people have that portrait artist's eye and some don't.

I've been at this for about two years now (Poser in general, that is), and I've had very little success with character packs previously.  What always seems to happen when I release a new character at 'Rosity is that about two people will buy it the first day it's available and then no sales are ever made after that.  What's worse, those two buyers always seem to have completely blank profiles/portfolios.  My most recent creation, Rachel for V4, broke that pattern briefly when someone bought her about two weeks after her release and actually published a render of her in the gallery (her textures, at least).  To be honest, my earlier works aren't very good at all in retrospect, but I suppose that's natural as I keep getting better and better.  If I can get just one character pack on the market that sells on some semblance of a regular basis, I'll be happy.  I'm not looking to make a living off Poser content, but I would like to make some money to offset what I spend on other third-party content.

Anyway, I've spent some time staring at my best yet render of Natalie's face.  I've also put the preview in Smooth Shaded mode and repeatedly INJected and REMoved Natalie's morphs, and the change seems significant.  Would any of you be willing to actually try using the morphs yourself if I sent them to you privately?  I can post renders 'til I'm blue in the face, but I think what another artist can do with them will be far more telling. 

The reason for me being so cautious about changing the morph settings is that a truly beautiful face that looks good in more than one light set or camera angle is not as easy to come by as one might think.  I can't tell you how many times I've created a beautiful face in one light set then done a render using a different light arrangement that ends up making my beauty look like a beast!  My most recent problem has been Natalie's upper lip.  I've been back and forth with the LipTopEdgeHeight and LipTopCenterHeight morphs just because the top lip looks fine in one light set but too large in another.  I think I've finally nailed the right setting, but it's still quite annoying. 

In terms of the actual look I'm aiming for, it's sort of guided by the characteristics I personally find most attractive in a woman.  Doe eyes, plush lips, soft and rounded face, high cheekbones,  smallish nose, etc.  At the same time, I'm trying to avoid keeping these attributes within natural bounds so she doesn't look like some hyper-idealized doll.

Iuvenis_Scriptor - I'm purely looking at this from a buyers perspective, you need to move away from the generic V4. If your character had an amazing texture, I would buy it. If she had an amazing & unique face and/or body morph I would buy it.
I hope I'm not being harsh, it's just that I've bought enough characters in the past to know the good ones from the average ones. Take a look at the main vendors here, the reason most of them have good sales is because their product says something.

it would be a bummer if daz would reject it because it used inferior poser lighting. my suggestion would be to render it in something like maya, max, lightwave, c4d, carrara, et al. or else read up on HDRI/AO and GI in poser. the latter is one of the hidden features of P7. maybe they're looking for a good render using their in-house software (D S). I dunno if d s has any advanced lighting features.

Quote - I've had very little success with character packs previously.  What always seems to happen when I release a new character at 'Rosity is that about two people will buy it the first day it's available and then no sales are ever made after that.  What's worse, those two buyers always seem to have completely blank profiles/portfolios.  My most recent creation, Rachel for V4, broke that pattern briefly when someone bought her about two weeks after her release and actually published a render of her in the gallery (her textures, at least).

Unfortunately it's very difficult to get established in any MP, especially this one because there are dozens and dozens of vendors and many have a long term following and many potential buyers very rarely look at "unknowns" or new vendors. I know I'm guilty of not looking at all vendor stores here, in fact I look at very few. I usually go by what I see in banner ads at the top of the page, or check out vendors that I've previously purchased from. Most often I find what I'm looking for. I do know that I tend to buy from those whom I've had a chance to sample their work through freebies. I tried some of Neomea's freebie characters and as a result I have purchased nearly every character that she's put out, same with Rhiannon. I have a number of her characters too.

The best way to develope a following is to put out some freebies for people to try out. They don't have to be huge packages.... a morph and a texture, maybe 2 makeup options or a second skin.  This gives people an idea of what you are about and they are more likely to look in your store for more quality items.

Quote - To be honest, my earlier works aren't very good at all in retrospect, but I suppose that's natural as I keep getting better and better.  If I can get just one character pack on the market that sells on some semblance of a regular basis, I'll be happy.  I'm not looking to make a living off Poser content, but I would like to make some money to offset what I spend on other third-party content.

As I said, it's very hard to make money from vendor sales unless you have an established following. If you want a MP to make money, then you need to offer something that no one else, or few others are offering. Find a niche.  Take KymJ for example.  She does a great number of "older" figures that are "imperfect", and that's a niche. Not everyone wants such characters, but many do.  Look through the MP here and elsewhere and see what is "lacking".  Start another thread and ask people what it is that they want in a character...get some ideas that way.

Trying to compete with established vendors with items that they are selling, while not impossible, is very difficult.

So far as making money to off set poser expenses, why not try book or CD covers, or some clothing textures for clothing items that aren't already flooded with textures IE: Don't do the MFD!!!!  LOL

Quote - The reason for me being so cautious about changing the morph settings is that a truly beautiful face that looks good in more than one light set or camera angle is not as easy to come by as one might think.  I can't tell you how many times I've created a beautiful face in one light set then done a render using a different light arrangement that ends up making my beauty look like a beast!  My most recent problem has been Natalie's upper lip.  I've been back and forth with the LipTopEdgeHeight and LipTopCenterHeight morphs just because the top lip looks fine in one light set but too large in another.  I think I've finally nailed the right setting, but it's still quite annoying. 

In terms of the actual look I'm aiming for, it's sort of guided by the characteristics I personally find most attractive in a woman.  Doe eyes, plush lips, soft and rounded face, high cheekbones,  smallish nose, etc.  At the same time, I'm trying to avoid keeping these attributes within natural bounds so she doesn't look like some hyper-idealized doll.

Unfortunately no one ever got rich through caution. Sometimes you have to throw caution to the wind and just go for it, you know?

Live on the edge! Don't be afraid to turn those dials so you completely get away from boxed vicky :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Just to add. My avatar is my first proper creation with V4. Not my textures apart from retouching, but the morph is mine. While I like her I still think she's a little too generic, I need to work more with her. For this reason alone I wouldn't put the morph up for sale, even if I knew how to go about putting a package together, which I don't.

Just for the heck of it, let's see how she looks with a different light arrangement.  This is after I've made slight increases to the contrast, saturation, and sharpness of the skin textures.  If anyone knows how to get rid of that glare in the eyes, please let me know.  I've tried everything I know of.

I've just re-read the two pages of this thread, and there seem to be two recurring themes: Unique morph and quality texture.

While you've made slight adjustments to your texture on advice from others here (the eyes specifically), it's still a long way from ideal.

And rather than improving your incredibly subtle morph based on the feedback here, you seem more interested in explaining it away. Telling us to 'look at it this way', or 'it's like this because...' won't change people's perceptions. It is ultimately an almost default V4.

If your last attempt at a sell-able V4 character was knocked back by Daz, shouldn't you be trying to raise the bar with this attempt?

Saying that there are worse products already available in the Market Place is certainley no excuse to produce a sub-par product yourself. And saying you know nothing about shader trees and advanced materials settings is no excuse to ignore them entirely. There are some fine, and FREE, examples out there for you to learn from. Even V4's default texture has a pretty decent shader, care of FaceOff (at least I think so).

The comments you recieve here are from potential customers (myself included). Even if Daz were to approve your character for sale in it's current state, can you honestly say that the reception here has been possitive enough to expect decent sales?

Again, you know I don't say any of this to offend. I'd like nothing more than for you to 'see the light', so to speak; create something great; and go on to be a successful vendor. I just think you need to take a few steps out of your comfort zone and really let your hair down before there's any hope of this happening. As Acadia said, 'no one ever got right through caution'.

Best of luck!

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Gunna add some more input to this.

I strongly strongly agree with what has been said about you needing to take V4 away from being V4.  That character I could easily make myself in a few minutes.  Think about why would I purchase it then?  Now go onto another character that I LOVE - Nanette (DMs).  I would have to seriously spend some time to recreate her - and to get to the level of her textures might not be possible for me - there for buying her was $$ well spent.

My point is you can't put something out there that someone can do for themselves and expect it to go.  Especially by Daz.  Some research helps TONS.  I'm sure you have already but take a look at other eyes out there.  Look for ones which you think are fantastic - then compare them to yours.  LOOK for the differences.  Matte is a flat look - without shinyness or glossiness.

I do like the character - she has a certain pocohantos beauty about her which I adore - shes just not there yet.  Try some long hair maybe - I don't know she just really needs alot more oomph.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Well, I did some work on the morphs and I think I've made some progress.  For optimum comparison, I decided to do a juxtaposition where only the morphs change and not the textures.  Here's a default V4 next to V4 with Natalie's morphs.

Hmmm, are you sure those are different morphs? The figures look exactly alike to me.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I agree with Acadia. There's little discernable difference.

Here's a thought. Whatever dials you've turned thus far, turn them MUCH further. I don't mean to sound facetious...just think of it as an experiment.

Whatever value you've entered into each dial, double it (maybe even triple it). Then post the resulting image here.

I do this for all of my Apollo morphs, using Anton's morph multiplier script, but it's not too arduous a task to perform manually.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Here's a morphing video, if it helps. 

[www.redcapegallery.com/NatMorph.avi

](http://www.redcapegallery.com/NatMorph.avi)Look at the nose, jawline, lips, and especially the eyes.

If you have to provide evidence to PROVE you've made changes, the morph just isn't cutting it.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Download the following files, open them both in Photoshop, copy one on top of the other, and turn the top layer on and off however many times it takes to notice the difference.  That's the best option I can think of besides what I've already done.

www.redcapegallery.com/Victoria.jpg

www.redcapegallery.com/Natalie.jpg

Iuvenis_Scriptor,

Why open a thread asking for advice, when you are not going to take any of it?  Your face morph still looks too much like the default Vic 4.  Yes, there are differences between your face and the default.  Are they enough?  No.   Most people (myself included) are only going to spend money on a unique/original character that they couldn't easily 'dial in' themselves.  If the morph isn't the clencher, then the textures have to be exceptional.  In short, there has to be something to your character package to set it apart and really grab a potential buyer's attention.  Right now, yours doesn't do that, IMHO.

I am at least trying to take most of the advice that's been offered here.  I honestly don't see how those two faces look so alike.  To me, they look quite different.  Plus, whatever distinction the morphs don't make, won't the textures make up for it? 

Regarding something that people could easily dial in themselves, you don't think that's what I did, do you?  Yes, I did do alot of dialing in, but this face took at least several hours if not a few days of trial-and-error (morph, test render, repeat, ad nauseam) to get just the right combination of morph settings for the look I'm aiming for.  Even if someone can technically dial in Natalie themselves, they can still save a heck of alot of tedious work by buying her.  Furthermore, if and when Natalie does appear in stores, she's not going to be terribly expensive (probably in the $10 - $15 range).

I think this is a classic case of being too 'close' to a project to be objective.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

""Even if someone can technically dial in Natalie themselves, they can still save a heck of alot of tedious work by buying her.""

I'm going to be very blunt here:
I already did buy her.  
She is V4.  
There is not a difference that warrants spending even 5$ more on her.  The difference is absolutely unnoticeable and you are counting on people (I am a person) to see a difference that warrants spending money.  When I personally go to buy a character - Im not going to open up photoshop files to turn on and off layers before I will.  I want to see the difference right there in the ad.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

I have little experience with V4. I'm not a vendor, nor do I ever intend to become one. Now that's out of the way:

What I've posted here is a comparison of the default V4 (left) and a morph I worked on some weeks ago (right). I don't show this as an indication of the 'look' you should be aiming for, but more as an example of, at the very least, how far a unique character should deviate from the standard V4. This morph evolved as a result of other forum users offering their advice, and...here's the rub...me taking it.

This also serves as an illustration of the textures you are competing with (this is the Milan texture available in the Market Place). What's interesting about this texture is it avoids most of the advanced material options, instead baking the detail onto the texture. Not ideal by any measure, but the results are still quite lovely. Ultimately, if you're not going to take advantage of Poser's complex material room, you must at least ensure the detail is in the texture.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

**OK, it 's probably wrong to use this as an example as it's a old finished picture of mine. I'm rendering in Vue so I can't put Poser up for a while to do a proper side by side comparison. I'm using this as an example because I haven't worked with V4 enough, she is V3 which I heavily morphed, she won't be to alot of people's tastes but I think you can see I have gone away from the generic V3 which I think is important. Since I did this picture I have reworked her mouth which needed changing.

ClawShrimp - That's a really interesting morph you've created, exactly the kind of 'away from V4' we need more of in the marketplace. I love the Milan texture but I'd also be interested to see this face with maybe a slightly darker skin tone as I think her features would suit it. Really good job!**

I really like both the face morphs from CS & SC ;0)

Both very nicely done! :0)

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Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

Well, after another round of morph revision, I think I've made some significant improvements, but I'll let you guys be the judge of that.  This time, I'm using Natalie's textures as the common texture set.  Also, like the past two or three pics, these images use a simple three-point light set that I made myself based on a tutorial in Practical Poser 6.  I've also removed the hair for optimum scrutiny of the head morph and textures.

You may also notice that I've finally figured out what was causing that awful glare in the eyes under certain lighting conditions.  I promptly remedied it, and I think the eyes are much better for it.

Iuvenis_Scriptor - You've certainly improved on the eyes, but I still feel your head morph is too base V4. I can see what you're doing, I actually like the start you've made with the nose, mouth & chin in your profile shot. I just feel it needs more.
Sorry, I know you are putting your heart into this, I just hope our honesty will lead you into further development with this.

I'm sorry :(  I still don't see enough of a difference in her look to make me want to hand my money over to you for the character.

Post after post in this thread have told you that your Natalie looks like boxed vicky and have encouraged you to turn lots of dials and take your character away from boxed vicky, yet each post you come back with looks basically the same.

I don't understand the reluctance on your part to deviate away from the boxed vicky look, especially when you said before that your other attempt, which looked a great deal like this attempt, was rejected by a store you were hoping to break into.

I'm not trying to be mean. I'm just trying to help you, as are everyone else in this thread.

I know you are trying and I know you are probably very frustrated with reworking the character so much, but while you seem to see a huge difference in appearance, the rest of us aren't seeing that difference, and it's us that you have to be worried about, unless you plan on being the only one buying your character.

I had a look through your gallery, and all of your vicky images look like near clones of one another.  You need to get that image out of your head and find another to focus on, one that will take you away from boxed vicky.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I still don't get it.  Seriously, take a good look at the lips, cheeks, jawline, and eyes.  How can you not see any significant difference in the lips and the eyes especially?  If I morph her eyes any more, she's going to lose her ethnic ambiguity in favor of an Oriental look.  The nose morphs aren't that obvious, I'll give you that, but the other key features should at least look moderately distinct!  I'd almost swear either you or I need to see an opthamologist/optometrist, 'cause even my close-to-project subjectivity shoudn't cause this much difference in what we see!

Well it's not just one person not seeing the differences.  So - 

You asked us to really look at those lips.  Sure I will, and after doing so I do see a tad bit of difference.  However, how long do you guess a person stares at a MP character to determine whether or not it is box vickie before deciding to buy it?  My guess is not too long - if I have to wonder at all whether or not it is box vickie Ill pass.  I imagine those at Daz who are deciding feel the same way.

If you are afraid that changing the eyes more will take away from your look, then try changing something else - but ALOT more needs to change.

When you say ethnic - specifically which ethnicity do you mean?  Perhaps that should get determined and you should look up dominate features within that group. 

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Iuvenis_Scriptor - It seems as though this is going nowhere. You are obviously on the wrong page to the rest of us. If you feel there's enough in your character morph then go ahead with it, but don't be disappointed when it gets rejected.
Just for the sake of it, do a complete rework, turn lots of dials & make them big changes. Don't worry about what the appearance might look like, just go for it, you might be surpised.

Yes, now the third of those is showing some noticeable morphing.

TBH I would be tempted to alter individual morphs at this stage,....but by all means create an FBM when you are happy that you are near finalising.

( OOOpps looks like the post I was commenting on was deleted :00 )

Klutz :0)

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Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

To avoid confusion, the above post was a response to this post made before I accidentally deleted it.  Here's my original post again.

First of all, I want to thank everyone for your patience.  I know some of you are probably as annoyed with me as I am with the fact that I'm apparently hallucinating when I see any significant distinction between default V4 and Natalie.

Having said that, let's do a three-way comparison this time.  I've revised the morphs yet again, but I also created an FBM based on my dial settings.  I then removed the dial settings and set the FBM to 1.3 strength.  I tried 1.5, but that gave me this weird black poke-through (or something that looks like it) around the eyelids.  In fact, it's still somewhat visible even at 1.3, but this will hopefully be an adequate preview, anyway.  Personally, I think intensifying the morphs just makes her look a little unnatural, but then again, my perception has apparently been woefully wrong throughout this thread.

Also, the image is too wide to reduce to a width of 800 pixels and still have it retain enough detail for good scrutiny, so I'm posting a link instead of the picture itself.

www.redcapegallery.com/Compare3.jpg

See my last post ;0) :0)

********************************************************************************************************************

Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Maybe in some way the perspective is geting lost here. We are not generally just talking about her looking different to the base V4, we are aslo talking about her looking unique or just different enough to make her appealing. In my opinion the only way to achieve this is to make many more changes, not just in the dials you've already turned but in different ones. Have you also tried using negative values, it's amazing sometimes what can be accomplished when using this method.

Holy crud!  There's actually some blue spots on the middle image!  So you DO notice some differences with the unintensified morphs!

I do have some dials set to negative values.  While I would like her to be unique, our main thrust at the moment is just making her look sufficiently distinct from default V4 (which I think I've already achieved, but I think I'm still alone in my opinion).  My goal is a face that's beautiful but still looks like someone you could meet while walking down the street.

*jjroland - Sorry to go off topic, but I just had to acknowlege your sig, it just creases me, LOL! Are you really like that? I loved watching Bill Hicks, he could be so coarse but yet so true! I loved his 'S^£k your own c$k' joke but I guess this is the wrong forum to really mention this! **

I collect comedy tapes/CDs/movies.  Bill Hicks relentless is my all time favorite.  I can't say I'm bitter or cruel - cold at times maybe : /  I'm just not much of a people person I think.  I'm glad you noticed - nice to meet others who like Bills work.

Regarding blue dots on the middle image.  Well tbh I really couldn't see any difference between the middle and last image - those dots are only there because there is a difference from the first.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Quote - Regarding blue dots on the middle image.  Well tbh I really couldn't see any difference between the middle and last image - those dots are only there because there is a difference from the first.

That's the only comparison that really matters.  I'm really glad you saw that many noticeable differences between the first and second image, 'cause it means that the unintensified morphs are finally at least starting to meet your mysterious standards for distinction from default V4.

**jjroland - 'Relentless' is a classic. Now I've got this on my mind I think I'll have to get it on DVD, I haven't seen it for years, hilarious!

Iuvenis_Scriptor - We keep talking about morphs, maybe also a change of texture would suffice. What's lacking in morphs could be made up by the texture.
**

'cause it means that the unintensified morphs are finally at least starting to meet your mysterious standards for distinction from default V4."

Iuvenis_Scriptor - Two points here:
1 - It's not just about noticable differences, it's about appeal.
2 - Don't insult jjroland & the rest of us for trying to help.

First of all, I apologize if my last comment sounded bitter.  The fact is I truly don't understand why I have to morph her face almost to the point of inhuman distortion in some parts before you and the other regular commentors on this thread observe any significant differences from out-of-the-box V4.

Secondly, let's do one thing at a time.  Forget about appeal and beauty for a moment and just tell me on the following scale how different the middle image (unintensified Natalie) looks from the first (completely unmorphed V4)

1 = She might as well not be morphed at all.
10 = Is that really V4 under there?

I don't expect any 10s.  It's just there to put the scale in perspective.

Iuvenis,

Not sure if you are going for realism or a fantasy type character, but if you are going for realism, you need to make the irises smaller.    I do think your morph is looking better.  Now you just need to work on the textures.  IMO, the skin is fine, but the eyes and the eyebrows still need some work.  The eyebrows look totally fake and painted on, to me.  Another thing, if you are planning on using eye colors like green or blue, make sure they aren't too bright/intense and unnatural looking - unless you are making a fantasy character, I mean.

For me it is a 3, but that is with a direct side by side comparison.

The score would be lower on its own.

********************************************************************************************************************

Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

I am going for realism, so I'm going to work on the eyebrows next.  I have spent quite a bit of time on the eye textures, and I just recently went through and reduced the saturation of the blue and green ires for just the reason you said.  Do you have any tips for the eyebrows?

For me a 2 with the side by side. Lower on its own.

I'm afraid it would have to be a 2. You can see slight differences, but not enough.

"First of all, I apologize if my last comment sounded bitter.  The fact is I truly don't understand why I have to morph her face almost to the point of inhuman distortion in some parts before you and the other regular commentors on this thread observe any significant differences from out-of-the-box V4."

I too have become frustrated with this.   I would like to point out the underlined part of your response there.  You don't have to.  You can keep her exactly and precisely the way she is.  It's no matter at all to me.  BUT I will bet you my entire V4 character collection, that as it now stands this character will not be accepted - and if it is then it will not be purchased.

You asked for help in this thread for creating a character that would be accepted by Daz, since they are a business thier goal is to sell - not argue with you regarding whether or not that looks exactly like the character they originally created.   The changes you have made do not appear as if you have taken any of the advice.  So why ask?

Im not personally of the opinion that different cheekbones/ears/lip depth would make her look inhuman - but meh what do I know.   I'd say until you are ready to cater to the observations of others you might not be ready to make business ventures.  Unless as someone said previously you intend to be the only one buying your product.  As it stands the one and only person who thinks this character looks different is you.  I highly doubt we are all blind.  If so then hey no sense in asking us poor without 20/20 folk.

With that I'm out.  If at any time this becomes anything more than an exercise in futility I will be more than willing to give you additional feedback.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

So I have a 2 and a 3, so far.  I still don't get why you don't see what I see.  Natalie's whole head is more teardrop-shaped, for one thing.  Her cheekbones are much higher.  Her eyes are quite distinctive, especially with the much thinner lids.  Her nose is kind of stubby with a more curved slope.  Are you not noticing these things or do you just not think they're significant enough?  I know I'm not exactly impartial, but still...

Speaking of impartial, I've decided to hop over to PoserPros and get the opinions of some fresh minds.  Now, your first instinct will probably be to roll your eyes and say, "They're just going to tell you the same thing, you stubborn git!"  They probably will, but I'm going to do it for my own peace of mind if nothing else.  I mean no offense to anyone here.  I greatly appreciate your help.  I'm just still scratching my head at how we're looking at the same pictures and seeing (or not seeing) very different things.

Iuvenis_Scriptor - I wish you all the best. If in time you do create something that has enough appeal to sell, remember to look back at this work,  I'm sure you'll then see the difference.

I-S, I really feel for you.
I have spent many hours staring at the screen wondering how many freakin dials I have to turn to turn Vicky into another woman, without turning her into a circus freak.

Have you got Poser 7? If so, use the morph putty tool, forget the dials.
Or use magnets, or an external modelling program, whatever you feel most comfortable with.

I have come to realise after several years of trying to "Un-Vicky Vicky" and "Un-Mike Mike" that custom morphs are the only way to achieve a decently distinct character.

Look at the top sellers here in the MP. All of the character creators are using custom morphs. Rena, Amy (rebelmommy), Thorne & Sarsa, D&M, Rhiannon, Danae, Chris (orion1167), Timo (outoftouch) and of course Aery Soul. All of them produce characters which are so distinctive and unique - even though they may have a similar "look" which serves as that creator's trademark - that they are instant sellers because they look *different.

• These people are at the top of the tree for a reason. Customers crave something different. There are plenty of "slightly-different-but-not-really" V3 and V4 characters in the marketplace already. As you've discovered here, they'll sell few copies,  and that's all. Daz have a different marketing strategy to Renderosity - they only want to sell high-volume items. They need to be sure that your character has got that "gotta have it" factor.

Something else that might help: give your character a back story. What kind of person is she? Is she sweet and innocent? Is she a tomboy? The girl next door? A sports freak? Is she a naughty girl with a dirty laugh? How old is she... what does she do for a living... what kind of clothes does she wear... Think about these things, and what they mean for the character. What are you trying to convey? OK, it's foolish to think, logically, that you can tell someone's character by their face. But realistically, we do this every single day, again and again. So use the stereotypes. If she's sweet and innocent, give her big eyes, and raise her eyebrows. If she's a tomboy, give her a squarer jaw. If she's naughty, give her a lopsided grin and a raised eyebrow on one side. Continue that theme to the body - a sports freak will have a muscular frame, a tomboy will have smaller breasts and square hips, a sweet and innocent girl will be unlikely to sport tattoos or a brazilian wax. [Note - I'm playing off the stereotypes here. I don't really think all tomboys have small boobs. I'm a tomboy, and I've got more than I want! But play with the stereotypes, because that's what people see, in those first moments they open the product page. And use it in your promo images! The sports girl should be wearing jogging pants, the naughty girl in lingerie... etc]

Wow, that last paragraph ran on, didn't it?

I'm going to leave it there. Good luck I_S. Don't stop trying. Even if you have to put this character away on the shelf and start afresh, never stop learning and growing!

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

Actaully I was going to post last week but then didn't, I didn't want my comments to be interpeted wrongly.
But it more or less coincides with Karen's post.
There is nothing really different about your character that sets her apart from any other woman character. I would encourage you to be more bold.

Comitted to excellence through art.

But is there enough to at least set her apart from the default Victoria 4?

I'm sure it probably won't make any more difference to you then what the others have posted but I will throw in my opinon as a DAZ brokered merchant. Frankly if you are looking to sell at DAZ this character is nowhere near original enough to do so. As the others have said while you have made subtle changes to the face, Subtle doesn't sell. It is not different enough in shape for customers to find it worth paying extra for. No one is saying to make characatures, but there are a lot of variations of faces and still some that are not covered in the marketplace yours is too similar to what is out there IMO. Skin textures fall into two catagories that I would purchase. the first is more illustrative, painterly as say the work of Liquid Rust http://www.daz3d.com/i.x/shop/itemdetails/-/?item=5218&cat=350 the second is more realistic such as the work of Danae http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=54193&vendor=5262 I have purchased both of these products. Neither of these merchants use premade merchant resources for their textures Danae uses Photographs from 3DSK to create her own custom textures and I am not sure what liquid rust does, but frankly DAZ tends to pass on texture sets that use merchant Resources as a starting point. No offense but there is not enough of an illustrative look to your skin texture for me to be interested in it for that type of look and there is not enough detail for me to be interested in it for a realistic look. In addition the eyebrows look a bit pasted on, eyebrows are more whispy, they have hairs that extend more naturally out of the shape of the eyebrow and vary in size and thickness. take a look at the other textures that have been posted in this thread and see that the eybrows dont form a sharply deliniated block but have variation. Sorry if that was harsh, but I think if you are struggling to get something into DAZ you need to understand what you are up against.

Quote - But is there enough to at least set her apart from the default Victoria 4?

In my opinion? No :(  TBH I have to stare and stare at your image and look at  small parts of the face and then look at that same part of the V4 face for me to see any difference.

I must have looked at that side by side comparisson for a hour before I saw that the crease in the inner corner of the eye is wider and the mouth when looking front on, is not as wide.  Those are the only changes that I noticed.

You are probably seeing huge changes between your Natalie and default Vicky 4 because you are staring at her and turning the dials so you aren't objective. It's reminds me of a Mom who seems astounded at the fact that people can't tell her identical twins apart when to her they look so very different. It's a case of being to close to the "project"  which results in tunnel vision.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

This will be my last post here, because honestly there are only so many times I'm willing to hit my head against a brick wall.

The morph as it is isn't far away enough from default V4 by a long shot. WIthout side-by-side comparisons, I doubt ANYONE would label this a unique character.

As I've said previously your concept, while vague, is sound enough as a character ideal. Unfortunately your morph is in no way illustrating this.

Thirdly, and finally. Your texture is leagues below industry standard. You have two options. Inject a HUGE amount of detail into the texture proper, or attach a decent shader tree to your currently bland and flat texture.

You won't find fortune in an essentially out of the box V4 morph coupled with a texture whose resource pack roots are clear as day. If it were me, I'd scrap this project and start a-fresh. Nothing like a clean slate to give you perspective.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

Well, I think I've had a major breakthrough.  I've enlisted a pair of eyes that has had no exposure whatsoever to this project up until last night and furthermore has no experience with Poser or CGI at all.  In other words, I asked my grandmother for her opinion.  She's an intelligent woman who I trust to be honest even if it's something I don't want to hear.  In fact, the first two times I showed her my latest version of Natalie, she too had to look closely to see the difference and told me so upfront.  The third time, however, I am pleased to say that she immediately observed a "definite difference" and even went as far as asking how I'd finally accomplished the feat.

So, although Natalie may not be absolutely one-of-a-kind, I feel confident now that she at least looks markedly distinct from default V4.  I hope you agree.

You may also notice that the eyebrows look a little sharper.  I did some work on them as per some advice I got here.  Please let me know what you think.

Thank your Gandma for opening your eyes!  :)   Now I see some visible differences at first glance.  You're on the right track now, but you aren't going to like this part.... she still looks way too similar (IMHO)  to V4 (could pass as closely related IE: sibbling) to be considered a "unique" character and at this stage in the morphs, I'm not sure that Daz would accept her because of the similarity.

I'd like to suggest that you change the shape and position of the eyes.  Currently they appear to only be moved out so that they are more flush with the face instead of inset like default V4, and you applied a bit of a slope to the outer corners, but other than that they look way too default in appearance.

You're on the right track now towards creating a unique character (you acknowledged that the previous attempts needed altering).

Once you get the facial features and body morphs honed, then we can all get more into your textures ;)  and some can even teach you about shaders which will help boost your character and give her some selling points :)

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Finally!  I'm so glad you think I've made at least a significant step in the right direction!  I'll take a good look at the eyes.  I don't know why so many people have trouble noticing that the eyelids are also quite different, but I guess it's just that nobody really pays attention to the lids.

While I'm pondering over the eyes, I'll give you some food for thought as far as the body is concerned.  You might notice even less divergence than with the face, since I tend to think facial distinction is much more important and compelling than bodily distinction.  Anyway, here's another side-by-side.

no offense but if you have to use side by side comparisons, to convince people that it's different it's still way too close for people to plunk their money down on. for a personal project this work is fine, but if you want to grab customers it has to be original enough that you don't have to convince anyone that it's different enough to plunk their hard earned money down on. as has been said before you are going to have one chance to convince people to click on your thumbnail to even bother to see a larger image, and if the customer can't see a difference without a comparison they will pass it right by.

Iuvenis_Scriptor - I actually thought you wouldn't come back to this thread.
Two points.
OK, yes, we can see the alterations you've made, but you have to scrutinise to really see them. This is the very reason it won't sell. Our first glance at the character should stand out to us, but I'm afraid it doesn't. My first glance says "default V4". I admit with a few slight changes though.
If you think you can go with the basic V4 body then I think you're messing up big time. You're not alone there though, other vendors do it, it drives me mad when I see characters in the marketplace that have had so little done to the body. If I'm going to pay money for a character please vendors, turn the bloomin body dials! I can spend hours & hours fine tuning a body, I use alot of the muscle morphs for realistic shape. Only the top vendors do this, & boy can't you tell. Granted, some vendors create the morphs in a seperate program, but that's another issue.
The only thing I can agree somewhat on is that the face is probably more important than the body as this is the initial attraction to people.
Please Iuvenis_Scriptor, turn the dials.

Not to invalidate your comment completely, but let's not forget that there's also the textures to consider.  I'm using the same textures (Natalie's) for both figures just to isolate the morphs for comparison, but a potential buyer won't have that luxury unless they buy the character.

Yes, if the textures really stood out then you wouldn't need to be so original with the morphs but the textures would also have to truely be something original and indispensable to do so.

I think the bottom line here is that the quality in morphs & texture just don't cut it. From the evidence you have shown here alot of people could do it themselves without much headache, so why would they need to buy it. As it stands, if for some reason it was accepted someplace to be sold, I couldn't see it going for more than say $5.00. I think you mentioned between $10 & $15. I can't see anyone paying this price for it when they could pay less for better quality products from other vendors.
Again, I'm sorry to be harsh, you asked for our advice but it seems to make no difference.
I hate having to be negative to you, please don't think for one minute I want to do this, I & others are helping you so you won't have the heartache of being turned down again.

Her eyebrows need to be more 'wispy' as someone else already described.  They look to solid and fake, right now... like plastic doll eyebrows.  I think you need a totally different eyebrow trans map.   And I still think her irises are too big 0_0.

One more thing, a specular map would help tremendously, IMO. 

Ok, I just have to ask: what are the textures lacking?  When I look at my renders, I can see the pores on her forehead, light freckles on her cheeks, the creases of her lower eyelid, etc.  It seems to me that there's plenty of detail.  Every skin surface has a bump map and a very slight highlight applied.  Has my proximity to the project affected my perception of the textures as drastically as it  has that of the morphs, or is there some requirement beyond not looking like she was just painted with a completely homogenous peach color like a simple color fill in MS Paint?

I would like to check your hands before you go up that ladder, because it seems that no matter how many times you say you're chipping away at this 'sculpture' all I can see is falling dust.

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=52947&

Have a look at a character in the 10-14$ range.  Note the skin textures.

and for just a couple dollars more look what I can get:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=54193

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Perfect examples jjroland. I have those two products as well. Truly well worth the money.
Nanette uses shaders & Milan such detail baked in.

Just to add, guess which texture was used as the base on my avatar?

TBH, Nanette's skin looks just a tad too dry and Milan's looks a tad too smooth for my tastes.  Maybe it's the lighting.

Wow, that Nanette character is gorgeous!  Don't know how I missed it. 

Iuvenis, I truly don't see how you could think her skin looks dry... she has a nice healthy sheen to her skin... something your texture is lacking.  Yours looks much 'drier' IMO.

If we're talking about realism, it has to come down to details, pure & simple. Without, no chance.

**""Just to add, guess which texture was used as the base on my avatar?""
**wtb a full figure shot because I can't guess LOL

IS:  I don't know what else to tell you.  It's like if a really obese person asked for advice on how to lose weight and we told him to walk around the block a few hundred times - he walked ten steps and said "HEY HEY what do you think of my progress"  well... ten steps are better than no steps but still a far cry from the goal.

Again I'm curious - why ask?

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

"wtb a full figure shot because I can't guess LOL"
jjroland - I used Milan's base texture.

""**jjroland - I used Milan's base texture""
**Man, I was gunna guess that too.. I can never go on who wants to be a millionaire - Im too undecisive.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

And while we are on the subject of comparisons and prices, there is someone  giving a way a texture and face morph package for FREE that is higher quality than yours, Iuvenis.  Here it is:

http://forum.daz3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=61855

I'm not saying the above to be mean.  I just think you need to do some comparisons to see what it is that people are looking for.

Don't know if this should be in the right thread, but just to point out...

Danae's textures are without a doubt fantastic, especially DM's, Orion1167's and the other top artists. 

BTW, your character looks beautiful.  I'm just curious to know how you set up your lighting and what have you.

I have Danae's Manhattan, and Milan and have tried bout on some characters I made.  It's thanks to those is what make me have the passion to create my own textures realisitc or otherwise. 

Didn't mean to get off base, just wanted to comment.

JB

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I'm not trying to be stubborn.  I'm just feeling really confused and frustrated.  I feel like everything I thought I new about this stuff is wrong.  I made sure that there was detail in the texture maps.  I applied bump maps to everything but the eyes.  I gave the skin textures a very slight highlight to mimic the natural oiliness of human skin.  Those actions should yield something with at least some semblance of realism, and to my eyes, they do.  Detail is the name of the game.  That makes sense.  So what details are my textures lacking? 

Not necessarily wrong........

I think the concensus of the advice seems to be 'Be bolder!' , both with the morphing and the texture detailing. 

Try something more extreme.

********************************************************************************************************************

Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

One thing about detail that stands out is your skin tone is exactly the same across the board.  That does not exist in reality.  Note Nanettes knees.    Your bump maybe isn't bumpy enough either.  Where I see detailed lines and pores on those other textures - I see yours there in picture but not in depth.  As has been previously stated the eyebrows need more realism and the lips lack any real depth.  TBH the default textures lips looked better.

The eyes still lack the sheen.  Google parts of the eye.  What is clear lense over the top of the whole eye?  Cant remember the name but your eye looks like it is missing that.  

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

"Im too undecisive"
**jjroland - I used to be indecisive, now I'm not so sure!

Iuvenis_Scriptor - Here's a thought, play around with some new lights & do another render, maybe your texture will look better then, maybe?**

Cornea?

********************************************************************************************************************

Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

Talking of bumps, how are you making your bump maps? Are you just greyscaling the texture map?

Stormchaser, that's exactly what I'm doing.  I'm shaking things up a bit with my sample renders.  I've turned Natalie into a blue-eyed bonde, and I'm using Daz's Wedge Cut 2.0 hair.  I'm also going to use some store-bought portrait lighting in (probably naive) hopes that the simplicity of my own homemade light set is somehow hindering the overall look of my character.  And yes, I do greyscale the textures to create bump maps, although the eyebrows and pubic hair required special attention since they need to be white.  Fortunately, they're on separate layers in my master PSD files, so it was relatively easy to handle.

Quote - Finally!  I'm so glad you think I've made at least a significant step in the right direction!  I'll take a good look at the eyes.  I don't know why so many people have trouble noticing that the eyelids are also quite different, but I guess it's just that nobody really pays attention to the lids.

While I'm pondering over the eyes, I'll give you some food for thought as far as the body is concerned.  You might notice even less divergence than with the face, since I tend to think facial distinction is much more important and compelling than bodily distinction.  Anyway, here's another side-by-side.

Ok, you aren't going to like this one at all either....

But with this side by side, the face looks identical. The bodies of both girls look identical in shape. The only difference being that the one of the right looks like it is a scaled up version of the one on the left, but the shape is identical, no differring contours, bumps or buldges...just scaled up to be "bigger" all around.

Basically now what I'm seeing is default V4.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I do see differences in the body.  Not enough by a long shot but I actually like the new breasts.  Thighs are bigger, there is a deeper indent in the rib area for the default.  The face does look identical from this distance.  

When we see that image it should look like two completely different girls standing side by side.  Right now they could be twins with one getting lucky in the boob area.

Oh I forgot to add that the arms are MUCH better than defaults.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

I'm not all that surprised, Acadia.  I didn't change the body that much even by my own standards.  And if they look like they could be related in a close-up head shot, it's only reasonable that they might look almost identical in an ACAP shot of the same size as the close-up.

What's ACAP?  It's a term I made up for any image that captures an entire figure from head to toe, no matter the pose.  I'm a self-taught Latinist, and "AB CAPITE AD PEDEM" literally means "from the head to the foot."  Just one of my many eccentricities, LOL!

Anyway, here's a somewhat more artistic render I did using different lights, different hair, different clothes, and a different eye color.

Does the lighting make any difference, or do I still have a long ways to go?

Ok. Firstly, your new render looks much better but we will need to see a close up & a straight on angle.
Just greyscaling the texture map is not enough from what I've heard on texturing. It can be a sound basis but I think there's more to it than that when it comes to detail because of how certain skin detail surfaces have different heights in the bump. I'm sure someone with more knowledge than me on this can say exactly what the process should be.

Here's a close-up.  I'll work on a straight-on shot when I get out of the shower.

I can definitely see more detail in the skin now. But still the eyes & eyebrows will need to be worked on, far too unrealistic, even with the better lighting. I can only describe her as still looking plastic.
How about this for a test, to see which needs more work, the morphs or the textures. If you have a decent texture which you've bought put this onto your character & see how she adds up. Also, if you can, put your texture on a character you've bought, if you have one. This may be interesting to see how things are really going.

Yes, a lot of folk seem to have difficulty looking through a texture to a morph.

That would be a useful excercise.

********************************************************************************************************************

Life is a beta.

In faecorum semper, solum profundum variat.

I don't own any third-party V4 characters, but I've had my eye on one for a while now.  I might just buy it now that I have an extra reason for it.

Anyway, I did some tweaks.  I edited the cornea trans map to (hopefully) give it back some slight glassiness.  I also completely redid the eyebrows and increased the contrast on all bump maps.  Finally, I made a few minor tweaks to the morph.  This is the result.

Ok, call me a glutton for punishment :)

I think everyone can agree that 'Minor adjustments'  aren't what's needed to make this even remotely sellable. Nobody here is saying "you're so close, just a little tweak ...". They're saying "this isn't even close to industry standard". Although most people are polite enough to simply point you towards a good quality product and hope you come to the realisation yourself.

I can agree with the sentiment here that you're certainly taking steps in the right direction, but they're so minute you'd likely not reach the goal of a quality product for potentially decades.

I initially believed you being too close to this project was what was clouding your objectivity, but I've come to realise it's not this project specifically. This is after all your 5th bite of the pie:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2985256
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2695572&page=1
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2974139
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2688083

Each of these threads moves in the same direction, with the same advice given over and over that you've again recieved here.

Hence mine, and possibly other's frustration.

If we can hit that bullseye, the rest of the dominos will fall like a house of cards...checkmate!

You can find some free textures for her:

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/index.php?username=adamthwaites

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/index.php?username=robrose

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/freestuff/index.php?username=Richard+T

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Okay, I took your advice, and my personal diagnosis is that the textures need more work than the morphs.  What do you think?

Left = Raven morph, Natalie textures
Right = Natalie morph, Raven textures

Agreed.  I'd probably buy the character on the right.  Those eyebrows are great.  I'm particular about eyebrows.

Here's the latest.  I gave the cornea a tad more glassiness (hopefully), I increased the bump map strength, completely re-did the eyebrows again, and did some general touching up on the face texture itself.

What are you using to make the eye textures? They look painted and that's part of the problem...

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

The eye textures were made by combining and blending together parts from two or three merchant resources and doing a fair amount of editing in Photoshop.

.....

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The one on the right does look better to me, but there again I only buy characters for their textures as I love to create my own morphs. This now tells me that your face morph would have to be unique & appealing for me to purchase it as your texture would be of no use to me. Unfortunately your face morph is still base V4 with slight modifications so I couldn't buy it. I now also feel changing just details in the face may not be enough, I think it's the overall face shape which needs to change.

**I hope you don't mind me using an example here. This was one of my first proper tries with V4, back in January I think. I can't remember which textures I used (I tend to use both char pack & MR ones) but it was the face morphing which I was interested with. I tried for a younger look. While I generally liked this test I never took it any further & I wouldn't have been happy for it to go on sale as it's not unique enough. I could probably rework it again though so it would be more appealing. Although it may be unfair to make a comparison to yours as the goal is different I do however think that you can at least see how I tried to go away from the base V4, well a little anyway.**

The combining seems to have muddied the eyes and turned them into something lifeless.

I'd suggest buying a 3d.sk subscription for a month or so or maybe a photo ref pack such as B25-Eyes which is only $7.

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

You know, Iuvenis, in one of the posts you asked if you're not too close to the project to see it objectivelly... I think you are.
There are quite a few thing in the texture and in the morphs that need to be done in order for it to be a marketable character, at least one of the upper crust.
Don't get me wrong, you're doing greally good work, but it needs more skill and learning to hit the mark that you seem to be shooting for.

some of the things that jump out at me is that skin is too uniform. On a normal face, there is a lot more variation in textures, coloring and pore sizes then what you have.

One example, the chin pores are more obvious then the lip creases and wrinkles. Look at a face, anyone's face, lip creases and wrinkles are about 3-5 times more obvious then chin pores.  Similar with forehead vs. the eye creases. Eye creases lost the detail, where the lower forehead pores are much more pronounced.

then, you have pretty coarse eyebrows and eyelashes on eyes which don't have as much detail. 

Eyes... the white is waaay too white, as if it's completely missing AO or any sort of shadowing. Instread of hetting darker in the corners, it's turning to blue - which makes it stand off from the skin tonem, instead of blending into it. This and few other details make the eyes give the impression of the painted eye on an egyptian statue, rather then a realistic character.

Eyelashes in the outside eye corners atop very abruptly. Typically, eyelashes keep going till they almost form a point.

The eye needs to have few specular higlights, one on the eyeball to show the wetness, some highlighting across sclera and cornes that shows off the roundness of the eye (something similar to fresnel effect. Then inside of the eye you have cornea and  the lens which also have minor highlights, reflections and specular spots. These little highlights give the eye dimensionality.
Your eyes look much flatter, as if they are glass or wodden eyeballs with the eye picture painted on.
Also, some of the high end facial textures take into the account the skin 'oilier' zones.

The tweaks you are making to improve your character are of the magnitude of 1, 2 or 3... where you need to go into a complete overhaul to change it.

Also, about the morphs... yes, they are different from V4, but guess what... To make a memorable character, it has to be visibly different from V4, and not in side by side comparison, but in a way where people can recognize her face being different from a base character  withoug having to have side by side pictures.  The morphs you made are hard for some people to spot in even side by side comparisons.

People will look at your character, and not notice it.

Now, I'm not saying this because your character is bad, but I think you're using a LOT of effort making little tweaks which will not get you where you say you want to go.
I would recomend backing off from this one, and try to find some tutorials, books, study guides, whatever learning material you can get you hands on on how to make things look hyper-realistic, also, about how to add character to a face.
I looked at your store here on rendo, the characters are nice but they all have similar issues as this one.
I would suggest trying to do something radically different as a project - you'd be surprized how much you'll learn and then will be apply it to this character when you take it up again.

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Hi stormchaser!

That was a pretty nice morph youve made there, custom morph or dial spinn?
If standard morphs, do you mind sharing your parameter values?

Regards / Jonny

P.s. Iuvenis_Scriptor, sorry for being off topic.

I went ahead and looked at the store too, after reading what Connie said.  Shes right.  Rachel looks identical to this character.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

"That was a pretty nice morph youve made there, custom morph or dial spinn? "
jonnybode - Dial spinning. I actually prefer the morphs now to the time I did it so I may continue with it sometime to imrove it. So for this reason I couldn't share the parameters with you or she wouldn't be unique to me anymore!
One day I hope to create something for the marketplace, but there is just so much to learn.

Well, most of you are probably going to become very happy with me.  I've made a major revision that should be 10x more significant than anything I've done previously.  I finally bit the bullet, visited face_off's tutorial, and created a skin shader to boost the textures.  Here's the result, using my three-point light set:

I think it still needs a little fine-tuning, but I'm quite pleased with the dramatic change I see.  How about you?

That texture is miles better.  You should be pleased - you did some very nice work there.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Hi stormchaser!

Fair enough, we shall care for our creations :-).
I ususally do my own charachters (not from scratch) but did find yours to be very appealing, maybe it reminds me of someone.

Anyway thx for the answer.

Regards / Jonny

Iuvenis,
 
Much much better!  Eyebrows are looking good, too.  Now... on to the eyes.  I know you can do it!

That's certainly a move on a right direction with the shader.
Do take some extra time on the eyes. Not just eueballs but the whole eye, eyelids, skin around them... needs a lot more detail, creases in right places to look realistic and dimensional.
Also, that thing about lips... they need more bump. Even with lipsticlk and gloss, one can still see a fair amount of bump on the lips.

I think you could tone down the freckles a bit and still retain the improved reality you just achieved. :)

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Quote - "That was a pretty nice morph youve made there, custom morph or dial spinn? "
jonnybode - Dial spinning. I actually prefer the morphs now to the time I did it so I may continue with it sometime to imrove it. So for this reason I couldn't share the parameters with you or she wouldn't be unique to me anymore!
One day I hope to create something for the marketplace, but there is just so much to learn.

 

You really have a good eye for unique faces, and faces full of character, and till very very pretty :)

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Iuvenis,

I wanted to point you to these, free V4 eyes merchant resource.  They are free to use for commercial characters as well.  Made by a very talented lady.  A couple of them are painted ,so those are best left for fantasy-type stuff, but all the others are realistic.   They come with the irises, sclera, lacrimals, and reflections. Check them out:

http://www.sharecg.com/v/8659/texture/V4-Eyes-Resource

http://www.sharecg.com/v/8660/texture/V4-Eyes-Resource-II

"I think you could tone down the freckles a bit and still retain the improved reality you just achieved. :)"

You got a problem with freckles Connie?!  > : s

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

Actually, I kind of agree with Connie.  I think there was too much fresnel on the face, and it made the head look rougher than the body IMO, so I did a little tweaking there.  I also thought that the shader made her skin look a little too light and yellowish, so I compensated by darkening and reddening the textures a little.

With regards to the eyes, for now I've darkened the eyewhites somewhat.  It's an improvement, I think, but probably not enough.  I'm going to take a good look at those free MRs and see what I can come up with.

Here are the most recent textures in action.

This area looks a bit like burn scars.  Unless that's what you're going for you might want to take a look at that.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

the eyes are still looking weird IMVHO. as if the ambient or alternate_diffuse channels have been activated.

Quote - You got a problem with freckles Connie?!  > : s

 

LOL... No, I don't, BUT... he said he wants to make a dark skinned, somewhat exotic character, I gather probably olive skinned, and freckles are much less common in those types of complexions.
If he was going to make a lighter complexioned euro, anglo character, then bring on the freckles.

Darker complexion characters though have some darker skin areas that the character is not showing yet... I'd have to look at the few reference photos before I could say exactly where. Often in the areas where skin has more creases IIRC

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I'll look at the neck.  I think the Healing brush tool might be able to fix that.

Here's Natalie with her new eyes.  Thoughts?

Here are photos of some eyes, study them up for light, shadows, coloring, what is in focus, what is not in focus..... How much or how little redness they have, and where... the scale and amount of capillaries. The transition between sclera and iris. Thansition between eyelids and the eye. Thickness, density and direction of eyelashes. Where the little higlights are that make them come alive.

http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=749691866&size=m&context=pool-80311671@N00
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=773924003&size=o&context=pool-80311671@N00
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=756957788&context=pool-80311671@N00&size=l
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=734073312&size=m&context=pool-80311671@N00
http://www.flickr.com/photos/seniorz/38203692/
http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=224779759&size=o

Notice especially in this last photo how the eye whites sort of pick up some face coloring.

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Well, I took a look at some of those sample photos, and I made some adjustments accordingly.  Unless my eyes are deceiving me again, there should be a significant improvement.

The iris to sclera transistion looks a lot better, IMO.  Try desaturating the iris a little so they are not such an intense green.  Right now it appears that she is wearing colored contacts.

There is improvement, that has to be said. The details are finally coming into play.
But here's the problem as I see it. I think you can still continue to add the detail but still will find it hard to achieve the realism you're after. It's like you can have a really good 2D portrait painting, full of detail & colours, but that painting still wouldn't look real. I see this in your skin texture, especially in the eyebrows & the eyes. I can see the detail you're putting in there, but they look too painted.
Since you first started this thread you have made good progress, you can identify what needs changing. Your shader, although far from perfect, is defintely a step in the right direction. But it still comes down to the eyes. When looking at someone's face, whether it be real or artistic, we always take note of the eyes. If you can get these right, you're on your way.

One more thing:  I think you should make the lacrimals smaller.

Iuvenis_Scriptor - One more thing before I drop off for the night, you are not alone with your problems regarding V4 eyes. I still see alot of poor eyes on V4 characters in the marketplace. A new character has just arrived now, I won't mention names, the skin texture is brilliant, very realistic, but the eyes? No way! 
In my opinion working with V3 was much easier in this department.

making good progress there!!!
one thing I'm noticing on the last render is the specular highlight. Looks little out of focus, or a bit blurry. On smooth wet surfaces specular highlight edges tend to be sharp.
I think you nailed the amount and size of capillaris.
I agree about desaturating irises a bit. Most people's irises, especially those of olive skinned complexion tend to be grayish towards the outside.

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I've done an artistic render just to see how she'd hold up.  I'm really starting to appreciate that skin shader.  Face_off is a genius!  Also, I reduced the saturation in her ires.

www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php

I've been in contact with someone at Daz who has generously offered to work with me closely to help Natalie be all that she can be.  He told me that a complicated skin shader is only for cruddy textures, so I decided to see what I could accomplish without the shader.  I did, however, figure out a way to capture the fresnel effect of the shader onto an external trans map that I can apply via blender node.  My friend at Daz also introduced me to using specular maps, so I've added those as well.  Finally, I made some further adjustments to the eyes. 

Here's the latest version of a shader-less Natalie:

To be safe, I'm considering including both the shader-less and shader-dependent MAT poses in the pack.  What do you think?

I hate to be a downer, but it looked much better with the skin shader.  Also, she's looking like she's sunburned, now.  The irises are still a very un-natural looking shade of green.

I kind of figured as much.  The new shader-less texture settings are still a big improvement over the textures I started out with.  I did a render of the abdomen with the torso texured the new way (the same way the face is above) and the hip textured the old way, and there's a definite difference.

Still, they can't beat the shader.  That's why I've pretty much decided to include both shader and non-shader MAT poses in the character pack. 

yeah, the abdomen shader looks alot better than the hip tex IMVHO.

I have to say the skin on her abdomen is very, very good.
For now I would forget everything else and  just concentrate on the eyes as they seem to need the most work doing. Would it be wrong of me to suggest to actually start the eyes again from scratch, with new resources & textures? I've found when creating something that when I continually try to improve a certain aspect of my work it just ends up getting too frustrating & starting afresh brings new approaches.

-->He told me that a complicated skin shader is only for cruddy textures, so I decided to see what I could accomplish without the shader<--

Wow. I'm have a hard time believing that a Daz employee told you that. Skin shaders can add a lot to even the most beautiful textures and are included in every Daz character pack that I know of that's been released in the last two years or so.

Actually, I don't know if he works for Daz or not.  I just met him via the Daz forums, and he seems to have some experience with this stuff.  The main issue we're facing right now is Daz Studio compatibility.  He's working on constructing a DS shader that imitates a P6 blender node, which I use quite frequently in my textures.  On the plus side, he's told me that from what he's seen, the textures are "certainly up to industry standards."

...

Try a photoshop tutorial or 2 on enhancing eyes.  Not sure if it will help but some blending along the iris and basic dodge and burn stuff would help a bit.  Not sure how to achieve the glossiness that yours lack - but do some searches and you might find the info.

I am:  aka Velocity3d 

I did some work on the eyes, mostly on the sclera-iris transition but also on the tear map.  I also changed the lash trans map.  This is the result.

How much of an improvement do you see?

Definitely getting there but still too saturated IMO.  You also need to kill off the symmetry of the eyebrows.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Iuvenus,

The eyes look much, much better, IMO.  Good going. :)  One more little quibble (you knew it was coming, didn't you.. lol) -  I think her lacrimals need to be a bit darker...and closer to the shade of her skin.  Right now, her lacrimals are a 'cool' pink tone... they need to be warm toned, as her skin is.

I really think you need to get rid of the painted highlights on the eyes but that is me.

Thanks for the tip.  I did some further work, and this is the result:

Even further work has yielded this: