dphoadley opened this issue on Jul 23, 2007 · 38 posts
dphoadley posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 9:59 AM
jjroland posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 10:35 AM
Might be a very close call, I'm thinking you are referring to the original Vicky? It's probably safe to assume that anyone who still uses her uses Eve as well?
As I've said before I honestly can't see the use in them unless you are doing scenes with lots of people in them. To me the older models compare to the newer models something like the development of the Monte Carlo.
In your render there, what should be considered very good posing is set off to me by her flat butt, (I believe I actually see sharp edges there at the crack) her bumpy legs and hip area. Seems like any time you get her into any sort of interesting pose you have all kinds of wierd bumps and stuff to deal with.
In the end I think the model could be good as long as your not aiming towards any sort of realism.
I am: aka Velocity3d
Miss Nancy posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 10:57 AM
it's a good test of poseability IMVHO. there's something wrong with her knees and butt in the above image. be fair, though. daz didn't get the butt-bending right until v4.
dphoadley posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 11:04 AM
I know that I'm biased, but I'm really not seeing the defects you guys are. To me, the butt looks OK, and the bumpy (spreading) knees seems to me to be what would normally happen when flesh is compressed. If someone could post an example of how they think it should ollk alternatively, I'd like to see.
DPH
NekkidVicky posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 11:44 AM
You try posing with a sword and a shield nekkid see how many bumps come up on your skin when it's freezing! :m_lecture:
I'm still waiting for my residual checks for all those NVIATWAS pictures online here!
jjroland posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 12:15 PM
Also DP I took your render and circled problem areas. If you don't mind I will repost that here but I don't like drawing all over other peoples work without permission.
I am: aka Velocity3d
dphoadley posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 12:18 PM
No problem, this is the way we learn. Also, rejointing Eve doesn't mean that the figure is pase', just that it could use a bit of improvement. My remapping efforts was only one step in trying to accomplish that.
DPH
jugoth posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 12:21 PM
jjroland posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 12:32 PM
I am: aka Velocity3d
dphoadley posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 12:45 PM
Most of the green areas I actually did post work before uploading. Perhaps they need a little bit more. If so, that's my failure as an artist, not PosetteeVe3's as a figure.
Another area I like especially well is the sole of her right foot. Posette and her derivatives always had plastic soles int the past, until I tore her feet apart in UV Mapper and remapped them (before, they'd still been 3D objects, and only the toes and instep were even remotely decently mapped).
DPH
PS: Your daughter has a really sweet face, you must be very proud
jjroland posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 12:50 PM
""PS: Your daughter has a really sweet face, you must be very proud""
Hrm that's my son LMAO. But yes I am very proud = D
I am: aka Velocity3d
dphoadley posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 1:01 PM
Sorry. Your son has a very sweet face. I'd say that he inherited your eyes. That's my forth grandchild sitting on my shoulders in my avatar, Ariel-Yehuda. He is quite good tempered, btw.
DPH
jjroland posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 1:31 PM
Thank you DP. And no worries. Often boys are mistaken for girls. The real funny thing is when I would have my daughter out and about in all her frilly pink and lace and someone would comment on my adorable son. Just dotdotdot LOL.
I am: aka Velocity3d
XENOPHONZ posted Mon, 23 July 2007 at 2:18 PM
As everyone knows, both Posette and Vicky (any version) are better than each other. So there is no difficulty. Which, of course, is a problem without a solution -- but which can be solved.
Gareee posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 10:43 AM
Quote - Most of the green areas I actually did post work before uploading.
Now wait a minute.. you want a faier comparison on figure bends between figures, but you are doing postwork before uploading an example? Isn't that cheating?
Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.
dphoadley posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 10:48 AM
jjroland posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 11:05 AM
DP are you using photoshop to postwork in?
I am: aka Velocity3d
dphoadley posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 11:08 AM
pjz99 posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 5:47 PM
David it's a mite irritating for you to ask about the bending of Figure X, and then show Figure X + a lot of Y postworking technique. You ought to have shown the raw render and stated as much.
stormchaser posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 6:04 PM
I'm sorry but jjroland broke my concentration by showing a bit of leg!! 
SamTherapy posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 6:22 PM
IMO, any plain Victoria out of the box can beat Posette out of the box anytime.
That's any version of Victoria, too. Yes, they all have their shortcomings but overall they're still better than Posette.
So there.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
dphoadley posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 8:54 PM
stormchaser posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 9:33 PM
dphoadley posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 9:50 PM
You're right stormchaser, that is a very beautiful Vic 3. But I would ask you this, how much extra, beside the base figure did you have to invest to get her that way? And those shoes and stockings, how much did they cost?
Posette out of the box comes already made as Junoesque as you've been working hard so hard to sculpt Vic 3 to be. And Posette comes with a ready made wardrobe as well.
An interesting aside, I'd say that my remapping of figures to the V3 standard is probably the one major thing that may yet preserve V3 from being completely eroded from the MP, now that V4.1 is all the rage. When my remapping of V4.1 is finished, trexture artist can still continue to market textures in the V3 format without the worry of working to an outdated item.
DPH
SamTherapy posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 10:06 PM
David, I admire your mapping skills and I can't wait for the V4 - V3 remap but IMO, Posette bends like glass.
Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.
Miss Nancy posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 10:24 PM
not bad, storm!
dphoadley posted Tue, 24 July 2007 at 10:27 PM
"Posette bends like glass."
Which is why Torino developed the forst Eve (damn, I meant FIRST Eve, whoever invented the QWERTY must have come from Brooklyn, putting the I right next to the O). An interesting aspect of eve is that she has a much more dynamic chest than Vic 1 or 2, i.e. the breast move in tandem with the collar, and even though Daz copied Eve's grouping, they didn't achieve this aspect until V3 and a hundred million vertices later.
And doing the remapping, I must ask, why so many bloody vertices in places that aren't usually rendered. V4.1 has more vertices in her bloody toes than Posette and Vic 2 together have in their entire legs! Who renders toes? Why must a figure be so polygonally bloated that it takes a bulldozer to move her around the pose window, even with a duel core (which is another reason that I prefer Posette, aside from her overall extremely attractive shape).
Yes, she might need a bit more postwork than V3 or V4, but the payoff is that I must use more immagination and experimentation, and thus learn more by doing.
DPH
stormchaser posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 5:47 AM
Thank you Miss Nancy.
David, I truly hope your remapping of V3 to V4 turns out how you expect it to. I'd be interested in this. How many hours have you dedicated to this project? Sorry, I should really be asking this in your other thread.
I must say that even though I love working with V3 she can still be hard to pose in certain positions, so yes, she is far from perfect. I just feel that with work she can still be a match for V4, of whom for some reason I still can't take to my heart. I don't know what it is about her, she bends better than V3 etc but there's just something about the obvious V4 look which detracts me.
dphoadley posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 6:08 AM
dphoadley@stormchaser
I'm sorry stormchaser, but you've got it backward. I'm not remapping V3, I'm remapping V4.1. When I'm done, those who wish to use V4, but don't want to buy whole new textures, can continue to use their V3 textures on V4. I have to say though, my reasons for doing this are twofold. Not love but lucre is one of them. The other is that I want to insure that texture artist will continue to make V3 textuers that I can then use on my beloved Posette. When I finish with V4, I intend to do the G2' and Miki2's as well. Eventually, V3 will be established as the across the board texture standard.
DPH
stormchaser posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 6:14 AM
Sorry David, I did know what you were doing, I just wrote it wrong, sorry! You see, I have some great V3 textures that I could use on V4, this may inspire me to use her more.
dphoadley posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 6:16 AM
And, standardizing the texture configuration could be as big a boon to us all, as standardizing the guage was to Railroading.
DPH
wolf359 posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 6:43 AM
Exits lurk mode<<<<
I understand people have their favorite poser rigs and all
but I fail to understand why an Adult person would embark on a rather
tedious brow beating campaign to convince everyone else
to LOVE their favorite polygonal computer data set .( poser rig)
and make gratuitous dogmatic assertions about other more complete,modern and higher resolution
polygonal computer data sets(poser rigs),
that are completely undisturbed
by REALITY.
The monetary argument is FALSE!!!
if i grabbed a professional merchant from here
and hired him to perform all of the Excellent remapping that has
been done on "possette" and "Dork"
I would pay more than the cost of a V3 /M3 with the morph packs
{BTW im NOT a DAZ/V3-4 fanboy
My opinion of the INJ/REM/CHAN/VIS/DELTA NONSENSE
is well known and there will never..EVER be a "V4" on any of my computers.}
There is no "Debate" here .......
its like Vinyl LP 's vs CD's
or VHS tapes vs DVD's
the technology has moved FORWARD!!!
yes we all have some vestigial artifacts
from the PAST that are dear to us
But to make serious assertions that the more modern
stuff will "Never" LOOK as good as my beloved Old__________
and begin posting edlted renders to"prove" ones
Love is a little well ....sad
re enters lurk mode<<<<<
dphoadley posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 7:08 AM
dphoadley@ **wolf359
**So, what exactlyis your point? Or do you even have one. No one paid any merchant to remap Posette, so no who uses PosetteV3 or PosetteeVe3 is out of any pocket change. There are those who WOULD like to continue to use their favorate V3 textures on V4.1, so what's the problem.
As for the debate, I was simply pondering whether, all thinks equal texturally, PosetteeVe3 couldn't be posed as well as any Vicky, since her rigging is so similar, and even served as the prototype for Vickies 1-3. I was hoping that people would look beyond the polygon differential, and reexamine the figure itself.
DPH
Dajadues posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 7:39 AM
I'm not understanding your fuss? You are using V3 on Posette right? So how is it Posette? It's really a knock off V3. It's not orginal. You're stealing V3 Maps and putting her on another figure. In fact, you're using all the Daz models and turning them into Poser figures. Its only a clone of something else. No orginality went into it. You're borrowing from one to the other. Thats a lot of work for reasons I don't understand. Just so you can slap V3 textures on an old figure, instead of making your own?
and just for the record: the two dont work well together and it looks ugly. If you want to make a figure then do what Anton does and make your own figure instead of borrowing other's people's hard work.
Ego threads are annoying. This shouldnt be in the Poser forum. Im saying this honestly, you shove your character's down everyone's throat in all your posts and their not even yours orginally.
(JMHO)
wolf359 posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 7:48 AM
Quote - dphoadley@ **wolf359
**So, what exactlyis your point? Or do you even have one.Any who cares to OBJECTIVELY read your seemingly endless series
of " I love Posette /vicky will Never compare " threads
will see my point clearly
"and verily he rejected all reality and substituted it with one of his own
making"
pjz99 posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 8:03 AM
I don't see the point either, but on the other hand quite a few people value the result of David's work, so I don't see any reason to give him a hard time about it ^_^
Really low-rez figures do completely different things from high-rez figures, and you'd want them for different reasons. For example you can't put any age on a low-rez figure without a very VERY good displacement map, but you can give a reasonable set of crow's feet and mouth lines and the like with a high-rez figure just in the geometry, which is imo useful. It's apples to oranges, and it's not something that is particularly valuable to force all roles onto one figure.
dphoadley posted Wed, 25 July 2007 at 8:21 AM
Well, at least I got people thinking, so at least one of the goals of this thread was achieved. ;=D
DPH
dphoadley posted Thu, 26 July 2007 at 3:12 AM
There seems to be some confusion by certain parties as to what UV Mapping actually is.
UV Mapping is a shorthand representation of a group of polygons (emphasis mine) belonging to one object layer so that they all are visible as a flatened 2d group in a square space that uses two coordinates: U and V.
UV Mapping is mesh specific, that is, while some can talk about a figure, "sharing" mapping, but what's actually happening is two totally different transformations from 3d to 2d that end up having the same basic shape. This is actually a new and different uv map, by definition, since it involves different polygons. It's not even the same instantiation of the original uv map, and therefore it can't be considered a derivative work since uv mapping projects 3d polygons onto 2d space, and with different polygons you have a completely different mapping even if the projection has the same general shape.
DPH