AntoniaTiger opened this issue on Aug 07, 2007 · 112 posts
AntoniaTiger posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 1:05 PM
e-frontier have announced a professional version of Poser, with a 64-bit network-capable render engine, and enhanced import/export options using COLLADA. No price details yet, but there will be a upgrade price for Poser 7 owners. The description pitches it firmly into the pofessional CGI world.
thefixer posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 1:12 PM
LOL, X-posted, I also said something similar in another post!!
Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.
jeffg3 posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 1:16 PM
Any word on a ship date???
thefixer posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 1:20 PM
jeffg3, check my other thread, it's on there!!! [LOL].
Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.
Casette posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 1:22 PM
So the current version isn't professional?
Poser 7 SR2 U (-nprofessional) ???
:b_grin: :b_funny:
CASETTE
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"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
JOELGLAINE posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 1:54 PM
Yeppers!
Lessee...It's like this: Cheapo=Hobbyist
High-End Price tag= High End Proffessional paying out of COMPANY coffers!
Money rules--fools drools! :lol:
I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act
together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An inconsistent hobgoblin is
the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!
iloco posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 2:02 PM
Hobbiest need to take a back seat...........lol
ïÏøçö
Miss Nancy posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 2:04 PM
perhaps it means that "poser 8 standard edition" will still allow default users to render giant-boobed zombies with nostril-glow.
Casette posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 2:09 PM
I'm very sorry, but it looks like another eFrontier trick to obly poor Poser-addict users to spend more money....
I have no 64-bits computer. So maybe I'll buy it when they release Poser7 64b SR2 (of course, following traditions, the new Poser7 64b will be a bunch of crashes until a couple of service packs... or three :lol: )
CASETTE
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"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 2:17 PM
I'm looking forward to this one. Who knows? Perhaps Poser will even get some respect..........
But of course: we are no doubt talking a good bit more of a cash outlay than has traditionally been the case with Poser. With some hobbyists already grousing over the cost of P7: this one will probably cause apoplexy in a few instances. But highend users should be happy. They'll now be able to acknowledge that they've got Poser installed on their machines -- because it will have cost them enough to be worth bragging about.
I have little doubt that this new professional version of Poser will be worth the expense. But I've always thought that Poser was worth the expense.
destro75 posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 2:20 PM
Quote - I'm looking forward to this one. Who knows? Perhaps Poser will even get some respect..........
But of course: we are no doubt talking a good bit more of a cash outlay than has traditionally been the case with Poser. With some hobbyists already grousing over the cost of P7: this one will probably cause apoplexy in a few instances. But highend users should be happy. They'll now be able to acknowledge that they've got Poser installed on their machines -- because it will have cost them enough to be worth bragging about.
I have little doubt that this new professional version of Poser will be worth the expense. But I've always thought that Poser was worth the expense.
QFT
This is exciting news. Now I have to start considering a way to get my hands on a 64-bit machine...
Web-Spanner posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 2:34 PM
And then you must wait for Bug-free Version 2 years.
Casette posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 2:38 PM
Quote - And then you must wait for Bug-free Version 2 years.
... as usual :woot: 
:lol:
CASETTE
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"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 2:43 PM
Oh......I dunno. I'll wait to actually see and use the program before I'll make any final judgements about it.
The majority of users of P7 were and are happy.
Darboshanski posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 3:01 PM
I have a 64-bit machine but at the moment I am not running a 64-bit OS as I saw no need to have a 64-bit OS since 95% of all apps are still in the 32-bit mode. This may change if the new poser 64-bit is worth merit. I ASS_ume that you will need a 64-bit OS to make poser 64 happen. Actually, I'd like to get a 64-bit OS cuase I am sick of winXP holding you back on ram usage my present machine can take more ram than XP can use.
tvining posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 3:05 PM
Two words: WOO HOO!!! For my money, the ability to work natively with high-end applications--in my case Cinema 4D--is worth ANY upgrade price. I've been killing myself for years with jumping through hoops to make Poser animation and C4D work together. When I saw the announcement today that Poser will work with C4D (and on the Mac, even!) I nearly wept for joy. I think it's always been Poser's inability (refusal?) to work with high-end apps that has kept it at the hobbyist level, so this is a big moment for Poser and anybody who has always wanted to untap its true potential. Embrace the possibilities!--Tim
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 3:09 PM
Quote - Embrace the possibilities!--Tim
That's my preferred approach to things. It beats misery in one's outlook everytime.
onimusha posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 3:31 PM
After spending $129 on Poser 7, which basically only implemented a working undo command, I think I'll skip this one.
Any idea on how much it will actually cost? If it's cheap enough to upgrade I still might consider it, but I doubt it...
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 3:44 PM
Nope, I don't think that anyone knows.......and no doubt those who actually do know are sworn to secrecy for the time being.
$129? That's a little less than the average price of a meal for two at a Ruth's Chris Steakhouse.
manoloz posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 4:04 PM
So the 64bit render is 64bit-width bitplane or 64bit instruction code optimized?
Or both? :-O
still hooked to real life and enjoying the siesta!
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Casette posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 4:29 PM
I simply spent two SR to obtain an usable P7. While this, I used P6
This time I pass. No matter a winter queen, a casino, or an Alan Alda in ballet costume as add-on
CASETTE
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"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
Kaji posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 4:47 PM
I just read the announcment on the RSS feed. This makes me mad. Who are they trying to kid? Those of us who wanted to use the higher end programs already moved onto them. 
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:04 PM
Quote - This makes me mad.
?
May I inquire as to why? Does e-frontier not have the.....uh......"right".....to release any software package that they wish? Or is it that you are "mad" because this announcement wasn't made prior to you getting into some other app(s)? Or is it because you believe e-frontier (the makers of Shade -- very popular in Japan) to somehow be incapable of producing a "pro"-level app -- so how DARE they try?
Speaking as a Lightwave user -- I am very much looking forward to having a version of Poser which will offer full integration with high-end apps.
Kaji posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:14 PM
It makes me angry that they want to nickel and dime everyone to death.
Where's the x64 support in P7? Not everyone needs to have "professional" level apps, but most of the new computers I see these days are 64 bit.
Thanks guys. :m_thumbu:
I have Cinema w/interPoser Pro and Vue Infinite (both of which have 32 and 64 editions on the discs), so I've taken care of all my needs but Poser is just faster at doing some things than trying to do them in these other programs.
Dale B posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:17 PM
COLLADA! Native network Rendering! Unless they ask for the golden left testicle of ILM's key mesh jockey, it'll be worth it. Now if we can talk eon into COLLADA support for Vue Infinite.... >:D
MachineClaw posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:21 PM
COLLADA for Lightwave is less then steller. With Lightwave 9 changing due to beta and updates this plugin will be sure to be out of wack really quickly.
Casette posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:22 PM
WTF is COLLADA????
CASETTE
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"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
Kaji posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:24 PM
Quote - WTF is COLLADA????
It's supposed to be a unified file format. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/COLLADA
How this is different from OBJ I'm not sure.
Tashar59 posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:30 PM
Let's hope it's not the same price difference as in Shade to Shade Pro.
This will help Daz out. With the new Carrara6 that has collada and imports all poser and DS files direct with better lighting and renderer, at about the same price as Poser now. I wonder how many will drop Poser and go that route instead. That is if it works and not like the major SNAFU of hex2.2.
EF may have lost the hobbiest battle, shame, I always liked poser but this P7 has been the only version I've had problems with, I've had every version from P4 and up, and I have a new machine. 64bit dual core, but with a 32 bit os. I upgraded more for my Vue6I, well now it's Vue6.5I. But every app I have runs like a charm on it except Poser7, even with the setting that ef suggested and then all my other apps suffer. Not cool.
So like some, I'll wait and see what becomes of poser before I judge it and hope that ef can get thier act together. As I already have Carrara5pro, I'm wondering if upgrading to C6Pro will delete the need for poser.
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:30 PM
OK -- so if I"m following you correctly, you are upset because P7 wasn't a 64-bit app -- which would have effectively made it into the same thing as this new "pro" app. Which would have meant P7 costing a lot more than it does. Which would have priced many hobbyists right out of the market.
P7 wasn't intended to be what this program is going to be. And as for "nickel & diming everyone to death" -- no one has to buy this new software. For that matter, no one had to buy P7, either.........or any of the other software packages that we've bought.
I have Vue Infinite, too. Plus several other applications. And I'm going to be more than happy to see this new version of Poser added to my toolbox. Rather than getting personally offended because e-frontier is actively engaged in developing and advancing their product -- I'll plan on enjoying what new things they have to offer to me.
But........I have to acknowledge one point: it just wouldn't be a properly-done new Poser release: without the event being accompanied by lotsa bellyaching for this reason / that reason going on in the forums. Even with the software sight-unseen as of yet. We've got a grand TRADITION that we've got to uphold here..........
Kaji posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:37 PM
Quote - OK -- so if I"m following you correctly, you are upset because P7 wasn't a 64-bit app -- which would have effectively made it into the same thing as this new "pro" app. Which would have meant P7 costing a lot more than it does. Which would have priced many hobbyists right out of the market.
How does making a binary for 32 and 64 jack up the price? Since computers are heading in that direction anyways, isn't it a good thing to offer your customers this?
Quote - P7 wasn't intended to be what this program is going to be. And as for "nickel & diming everyone to death" -- no one has to buy this new software. For that matter, no one had to buy P7, either.........or any of the other software packages that we've bought.
I just want 64 bit support so now I have to buy this too, I don't need it for anything else. Thus, nickel and diming.
I do have to agree with the person who mentioned Shade, that is one heck of a price difference. $50-$100 wouldn't matter to me so much, but hundreds? Heck, I can buy net render and MOCCA for Cinema for that price.
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:40 PM
Quote - EF may have lost the hobbiest battle, shame
I'm.......frankly baffled as to how the announced release of a new pro-level software would lead one to such a conclusion. Nor have I seen any evidence to support such a conclusion. If anything, Poser is bigger than ever. Especially in light of the fact that they are now seeking to expand their horizons. Good deal, in my book.
Nothing against DAZ Studio -- and I also have Carrara 5. DAZ is enjoying a lot of success, too. The pool of "hobbyists" from which these companies draw is getting larger all of the time. So I don't see anyone going down the tubes just yet........just the opposite, in fact.
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:47 PM
Quote - How does making a binary for 32 and 64 jack up the price? Since computers are heading in that direction anyways, isn't it a good thing to offer your customers this?
Oh......I suspect that there's going to be a lot more to this than just 64-bit support. But for those who only need 64-bit, and nothing else -- here it is. Once again: that wasn't what P7 was intended to be.
And, oh yeah......it appears that "offering their customers this" is precisely what they are doing here.
Quote - I do have to agree with the person who mentioned Shade, that is one heck of a price difference. $50-$100 wouldn't matter to me so much, but hundreds? Heck, I can buy net render and MOCCA for Cinema for that price.
Once again, we're jumping the gun here. Which isn't unusual.
Here's a reminder (whispering): *we haven't seen the price structure yet: so we are engaging in pure-T speculation.*Personally, I'll wait until I actually know what the pricing structure IS, before I start slamming e-frontier for it.
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:55 PM
Quote - Heck, I can buy net render and MOCCA for Cinema for that price.
Maybe......but wouldn't that be an example of Cinema users being "nickel and dimed to death"? Why wasn't that functionality built into the program to begin with? Isn't it inherently unfair that you are required to shell out more money in order to achieve it? :biggrin:
Tashar59 posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 5:59 PM
"I'm.......frankly baffled as to how the announced release of a new pro-level software would lead one to such a conclusion."
Simple, The average hobbiest will look for the app that gives the most for thier buck. If Carrara6 gives about the same as Poser pro at less money and more than Poser for the same price, where do you think that money is going to be spent. That is not rocket science.
I have not said it was a bad thing, I have pointed out something that we will get to see how it plays out. For the better or worse, time will tell. I have read quite a bit of long time poser users jumping ship these days, more so than the P5 days. There are options now to go to.
Kaji posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 6:01 PM
Quote - Maybe......but wouldn't that be an example of Cinema users being "nickel and dimed to death"? Why wasn't that functionality built into the program to begin with? Isn't it inherently unfair that you are required to shell out more money in order to achieve it? :biggrin:
Cinema is offered for a cheaper price if you buy everything at once, but $3000 is a lot to shell out isn't it? :biggrin:
Besides, those are modules and not a full up new program.
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 6:03 PM
IMO, options are a great thing. I love having options. I even have Poser 7 and DAZ Studio installed together on the same machine.
But the Poser user pool isn't shrinking. It's getting bigger all of the time. And the release of this new package will probably have no other effect than to make it bigger still. Or at least I'd say that's the way to bet, based upon the evidence of prior trends.
CuriousGeorge posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 6:06 PM
What a discussion,...I think the fact that there is finally some integration with apps like maya, c4d, lightwave,...etc. That is my 1st reason to go with the pro version. Distributed rendering - ohhh how I've wanted that for some time, but I still wonder how well poser will manage scenes with a great many objects (so-so, as far as I can tell at the moment).
The thing is about poser is the UI - I can get stuff done FAST in poser, and when I mean fast, I mean aesthetically-fast as far as the model is concerned.
If you are a hobbyist, don't get pro, why would you need it anyway?
If you make money with poser like I do, then it might be worth it - especially for the built-in integration with renderers other than Shade (I just hate the Shade UI, hate - hate- hate)!
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 6:09 PM
Quote - Cinema is offered for a cheaper price if you buy everything at once, but $3000 is a lot to shell out isn't it? :biggrin:
Besides, those are modules and not a full up new program.
Doesn't matter -- I still say that Cinema users are being nickel and dimed to death. At least that's true for Cinema users if it's true for Poser users. An expense is an expense -- be it for a plug-in, or for a new program. In fact, it's even worse when the money is going for mere plug-ins: because that's just a way of cheating customers out of more of their hard-earned cash (at least it is according to the reasoning of some).
$3000 is pretty standard money for those who are used to high-end app prices. Poser comes a little cheaper than that..........and I suspect that this new version will be a little cheaper than that, too. But hey -- rather than being slowly nickel and dimed to death, it's better just to take it all in one solid shot: and get it over with in a hurry.
wolf359 posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 6:23 PM
Quote - > Quote - This makes me mad.
Speaking as a Lightwave user -- I am very much looking forward to having a version of Poser which will offer full integration with high-end apps.
FROM THE EF WEBSITE:
"Better Integration with Professional Environments
Realize the added benefit of quickly animating with Poser’s pre-rigged characters inside of host application such as Autodesk’s 3ds Max and Maya, and Maxon’s CINEMA 4D. PLAYBACK Poser scenes in other powerful 3D applications for increased productivity and access to pre built, modifiable content."
" HOSTING Plugins
Directly host Poser scenes including geometry, textures, animation data, and more in the following applications:
Autodesk 3D Studio Max Windows
Autodesk Maya Mac and Windows
Newtek's Lightwave Mac and Windows
Maxon's Cinema 4D Mac and Windows"
you actually wont have "Full Integration" of Poser content in Lightwave
from the language it is clear that this is the Old Propack4 "Hosting Plugs updated
Meaning you Do everything in poser and Host the scene in LW ,MAX ,C4D etc, to render only
Any changes required??
you go back to poser and redo and 'rehost "or hit update button in "host" application.
Interaction with LW powerful cloth engine ?......NO
import of Poser Shaders..??.......... not mentioned in the specs so Highly unlikely
Newtek releases a point upgrade( LW 9.7.9 or whatever) and your hosting plugin stops working
..........VERY Likely
But its bettter that nothing for you who dont have Cinema4D and the true COMPLETE solution of Interposer pro
Pol posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 6:45 PM
Quote - Two words: WOO HOO!!! For my money, the ability to work natively with high-end applications--in my case Cinema 4D--is worth ANY upgrade price. I've been killing myself for years with jumping through hoops to make Poser animation and C4D work together. When I saw the announcement today that Poser will work with C4D (and on the Mac, even!) I nearly wept for joy. I think it's always been Poser's inability (refusal?) to work with high-end apps that has kept it at the hobbyist level, so this is a big moment for Poser and anybody who has always wanted to untap its true potential. Embrace the possibilities!--Tim
Tim, I was going to type almost the same thing......
Almost = because I'm using Lightwave.
Great News for me.
krimpr posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 7:15 PM
Quote - > Quote - > Quote - This makes me mad.
Speaking as a Lightwave user -- I am very much looking forward to having a version of Poser which will offer full integration with high-end apps.
FROM THE EF WEBSITE:
"Better Integration with Professional Environments
Realize the added benefit of quickly animating with Poser’s pre-rigged characters inside of host application such as Autodesk’s 3ds Max and Maya, and Maxon’s CINEMA 4D. PLAYBACK Poser scenes in other powerful 3D applications for increased productivity and access to pre built, modifiable content."" HOSTING Plugins
Directly host Poser scenes including geometry, textures, animation data, and more in the following applications:
Autodesk 3D Studio Max Windows
Autodesk Maya Mac and Windows
Newtek's Lightwave Mac and Windows
Maxon's Cinema 4D Mac and Windows"
you actually wont have "Full Integration" of Poser content in Lightwave
from the language it is clear that this is the Old Propack4 "Hosting Plugs updated
Meaning you Do everything in poser and Host the scene in LW ,MAX ,C4D etc, to render onlyAny changes required??
you go back to poser and redo and 'rehost "or hit update button in "host" application.Interaction with LW powerful cloth engine ?......NO
import of Poser Shaders..??.......... not mentioned in the specs so Highly unlikely
Newtek releases a point upgrade( LW 9.7.9 or whatever) and your hosting plugin stops working
..........VERY LikelyBut its bettter that nothing for you who dont have Cinema4D and the true COMPLETE solution of Interposer pro
Psssssssssttt... wanna hear a cool secret? Poser 4 propack works in 9.2 already. I tried it about two weeks ago. You have to change the apply method from multiply to normal, and "use poser UV's" in the surface editor, and hit F10. No dynamic hair or procedurals, but if you've got LW and a dust copy of propack in a drawer.... undust it.
pakled posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 7:32 PM
Well, if it's expensive enough, it might shut up some of those 'other' apps users..;)
64 bits comes out to 8 bucks...I might be able to afford that..;)
I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit
anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)
Little_Dragon posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 7:41 PM
Quote - How this is different from OBJ I'm not sure.
OBJ is just geometry. When properly implemented, COLLADA can also include lighting, rigging, morphs, shaders, keyframes ....
Philywebrider posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 7:59 PM
I'd just like to see the price of "Poser Pro"
Kaji posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 8:08 PM
Quote - > Quote - How this is different from OBJ I'm not sure.
OBJ is just geometry. When properly implemented, COLLADA can also include lighting, rigging, morphs, shaders, keyframes ....
That makes no sense from a business point of view. If I lock you into my file type than you cannot leave and you have to buy my product.
RajDArge posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 8:14 PM
UM anyone downloaded the Collada Plugin?
I did, installed it, and now P7 doesnt run.?
Raj
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 9:07 PM
Quote - you actually wont have "Full Integration" of Poser content in Lightwave
from the language it is clear that this is the Old Propack4 "Hosting Plugs updated
Meaning you Do everything in poser and Host the scene in LW ,MAX ,C4D etc, to render onlyAny changes required??
you go back to poser and redo and 'rehost "or hit update button in "host" application.Interaction with LW powerful cloth engine ?......NO
import of Poser Shaders..??.......... not mentioned in the specs so Highly unlikely
Newtek releases a point upgrade( LW 9.7.9 or whatever) and your hosting plugin stops working
..........VERY LikelyBut its bettter that nothing for you who dont have Cinema4D and the true COMPLETE solution of Interposer pro
tsk tsk tsk -- such pessimism on display.
As I've hinted once or twice already -- I won't make any final judgements until the package is actually out, and I've had the chance to try it. Until then, I won't be making assumptions about all aspects of what it will and will not do. I certainly won't be making those assumptions in a negative direction.
Who knows? Perhaps there will be "full integration". However you choose to define the term. We'll wait and see. Or at least I'll wait and see.
I've considered getting C4D + Bodypaint. So I won't be slamming that app. But LW is a great app, too. And much better represented in certain aspects of the industry.
I've never quite grasped why things always have to be defined in terms of an either / or choice. Like you can ONLY have C4D -- or you can ONLY have Lightwave. I'm sure that C4D with Transposer is the hot setup. So's Lightwave.
I choose to take the optimistic view of things: so this new edition of Poser will probably work well with both apps.
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 9:09 PM
Quote - Psssssssssttt... wanna hear a cool secret? Poser 4 propack works in 9.2 already. I tried it about two weeks ago. You have to change the apply method from multiply to normal, and "use poser UV's" in the surface editor, and hit F10. No dynamic hair or procedurals, but if you've got LW and a dust copy of propack in a drawer.... undust it.
And with the new Poser Pro, you might have it all. So perhaps P4P will go back to collecting dust.
raz posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 9:11 PM
I like the "render farm" ability...
but dang youuuu e frontier (shakes fist at them)... ive been saving to still update from 6...
I so was gonna buy 7 after seeing some of you have da bugs worked out... and I get this email....
now what'll i do???
(runs around in a circle while lying on the floor like curley)
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 9:27 PM
Quote - I'm sure that C4D with Transposer is the hot setup. So's Lightwave.
Excuse me......I meant to say Interposer. I didn't mean to confuse C4D with Carrara. I'd never dream of doing that.
scanmead posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 9:31 PM
Quote - I've never quite grasped why things always have to be defined in terms of an either / or choice. Like you can ONLY have C4D -- or you can ONLY have Lightwave. I'm sure that C4D with Transposer is the hot setup. So's Lightwave.
I choose to take the optimistic view of things: so this new edition of Poser will probably work well with both apps.
Actually, it is C4D with IPP that's the hot set-up. ;) And Maxon doesn't nickel 'n dime you to death, they offer a buffet. BodyPaint is now part of the Cinema core, Hair if you like, MoGraph if you need it, Sketch 'n Toon if that's your style.. An admittedly pricey buffet, but the dishes are sweet. It's either/or for those like me, who don't make a living doing this, and can't afford more than one big-ticket platform. Another problem is the learning curve. Trying to tackle more than one of these programs at a time can be a stretch. I wouldn't mind Max on my machine, though.. if I ever win the lottery. ;)
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 9:45 PM
Quote - Actually, it's C4D with IPP that's the hot set-up. ;)
Please see my semi-X-post just above yours.
I have no doubts that C4D offers a buffet. As I've indicated -- I'm looking it over for purchase. So I'm not an anti-C4D type (assuming such types exist). However: I sense a jab or two at LW coming from other sources -- so I'm responding to that.
Don't miss the point of my saying that Cinema users are nickel & dimed to death. For the literally-minded: I don't actually think that Maxon nickel & dimes their customers. Because that particular charge is no more legitimate when it's leveled against Maxon than it is when its leveled against e-frontier.
Also, I will point out once again that C4D is considerably more of an investment than Poser is. Goes with the territory. So you definitely aren't being "nickel & dimed" -- it......uh......goes well past that. But it's no doubt worth it. :biggrin:
pjz99 posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 9:48 PM
Quote - tsk tsk tsk -- such pessimism on display.
It's not pessimism, it's realism. Spend some time trying to rework Poser materials setups in a different (usually more powerful) app. There are many situations that simply do not have a 1:1 equivalent and cannot be duplicated at all, whether by automation or by hand. I remain skeptical as well about how well rigging will export from Poser into other apps.
Looks to me like the significant changes here are content export (which I've already wasted huge amounts of money on, would have been nice if that junk had been built into Poser 7) and "64-bit rendering" - simply a memory management improvement as far as I can see, no major feature being added there. Maybe they'll do a less bone-headed division of labor for multi-threaded rendering too, we'll see.
Xenophonz there's about a dozen bubbly posts from you defending EF. They're big kids now, they don't need a champion.
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 9:56 PM
Quote - Xenophonz there's about a dozen bubbly posts from you defending EF. They're big kids now, they don't need a champion.
You're right about that much. They don't -- but I have no intentions of refusing to express my own opinions on the subject at hand for that reason. If some choose to slam e-frontier, then it's equally legitimate for others to answer.
No -- they don't need a champion. But neither do they 'need' a lynch mob.
XENOPHONZ posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 9:57 PM
Quote - I remain skeptical as well about how well rigging will export from Poser into other apps.
That's healthy. We'll see what we see when we see it.
Dale B posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 10:32 PM
Quote - > Quote - > Quote - How this is different from OBJ I'm not sure.
OBJ is just geometry. When properly implemented, COLLADA can also include lighting, rigging, morphs, shaders, keyframes ....
That makes no sense from a business point of view. If I lock you into my file type than you cannot leave and you have to buy my product.
Google COLLADA and read the faqs.
Dale B posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 10:36 PM
Quote - > Quote - tsk tsk tsk -- such pessimism on display.
It's not pessimism, it's realism. Spend some time trying to rework Poser materials setups in a different (usually more powerful) app. There are many situations that simply do not have a 1:1 equivalent and cannot be duplicated at all, whether by automation or by hand. I remain skeptical as well about how well rigging will export from Poser into other apps.
Looks to me like the significant changes here are content export (which I've already wasted huge amounts of money on, would have been nice if that junk had been built into Poser 7) and "64-bit rendering" - simply a memory management improvement as far as I can see, no major feature being added there. Maybe they'll do a less bone-headed division of labor for multi-threaded rendering too, we'll see.
Guess you missed the announcement of network rendering....
Darboshanski posted Tue, 07 August 2007 at 10:51 PM
Collada not pina colada right...LOL! Wait hear that sound??? whip thunk* whip*thunk awww poor dead horse. To quote a very rugged and experienced senior chief when I was in Coronado, Calf, " We shall see what we shall see" and I think this is one of those we shall see things.
I agree there are opinions and then there is...well we shall see what we shall see...LOL! At least let ef get the damn program out then let the lynching, stoning, hooking em up to a metal boxspring with a car battery or whatever your favorite method you prefer, commence ROTHFLAMO!
You gotta admit it's intersting.
Paloth posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 12:35 AM
UM anyone downloaded the Collada Plugin? I did, installed it, and now P7 doesnt run.? Raj I did, and my P7 is broken now too. I'm hoping that the latest upgrade will fix things.
Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368
operaguy posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 12:42 AM
RajDArge
i was just about to download that exporter and try it; has your situation cleared up or is Poser7 actually dead with it installed?
::::: Opera :::::
pjz99 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 1:28 AM
Quote - Guess you missed the announcement of network rendering....
Since Poser's renderer is frankly in the "very poor" category, I don't have any interest in stapling network rendering on top of that. Will the boneheaded division of labor for multi-threaded rendering be distributed across many nodes, so you can waste 3/4 of your CPU power on multiple boxes at the same time? Super!
Will you get occasional inexplicable crashes when Smooth Polygons is enabled on multiple render servers? Whee, fabulous!
Grid-like artifacts in AO shading on flat surfaces distributed across a render farm? Woo, I'm so excited! http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2697196
People don't generally stick with Poser because it's a great renderer, they use it because it's a cheap alternative and there's a lot of easy-to-use cheap content. Raising the price tag without really improving the renderer's quality doesn't excite me. Any supposed speed improvement by spreading the work across multiple servers is also going to be countered by the cost of the extra render servers, and the cost of buying the "Pro" version of poser.
By the way any folks who already own and use P7, you can take it for granted you will be getting low priority support for the next year or two, while the business is focused on delivering and supporting this new Pro version.
thefixer posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 1:51 AM
Consider this:
Some peeps [like me] are what I would call "semi pro" where we do some commercial work but most of what we do is for fun and we can't actually afford the high end apps like Maya, C4D etc. etc.
Now I also have a 64 bit machine [or will have by the weekend, LOL] and have been a Poser user/supporte for a number of years!
Now I can "ONLY" have 64 bit support if I fork out yet more cash for this new Poser app, most of which I can't use due to not having the high end apps.
So Posers customer base which is largely the hobbyist IMO and has backed them through good and bad are now being well and truly left out in the cold!
If ratscloset is still around or anyone from EF, I'd be interested to hear your views on that!!
Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.
Kaji posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 5:34 AM
Quote - > Quote - > Quote - > Quote - How this is different from OBJ I'm not sure.
OBJ is just geometry. When properly implemented, COLLADA can also include lighting, rigging, morphs, shaders, keyframes ....
That makes no sense from a business point of view. If I lock you into my file type than you cannot leave and you have to buy my product.
Google COLLADA and read the faqs.
Don't get me wrong. It's a wonderful idea. It just goes counter to the business model I've seen in other software venues, of locking you into a product and never letting you leave without lots of pain.
wolf359 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 6:19 AM
Quote - > Quote -
I have no doubts that C4D offers a buffet. As I've indicated -- I'm looking it over for purchase. So I'm not an anti-C4D type (assuming such types exist). However: I sense a jab or two at LW coming from other sources -- so I'm responding to that.
:
Who is jabbing at Lightwave??
I used to be a Lightwave and C4D user user but stopped at LW7.5
and committed to Cinema4D.Its Not Newteks fault or issue if third party poser plugins do or dont deliver full integration.
But the terms" Hosting" and "Playback" are the same language that was used by
curious labs and Riess studio.
But frankly if you are a LW user this new propack will offer you this hosting option
you didnt have before. Cool!!but in the meantime LW users might want to consider spending $69 USD
for the DAZ FBX plugin (Sale price) and using the FREE Daz studio as a gateway
app to get poser figures into lightwave as COMPLETE independent native Lightwave rigs that would be fully interactive with Lightwave cloth dynamics etc.
at any rate more choices are a good thing.
pjz99 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 6:36 AM
Ooo, speakin of Reiss Studio, they still never refunded my $180. :cursing:
RajDArge posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 6:46 AM
poser 7 dies eah time you install that collada export plugin for it. I had to uninstall P7 and reinstall it and the service pack to get it running again. I have left a message at efrontier for support but have yet to recieve a reply.
I find out that Daz Studio has a Collada Exporter already. But the import into max doesnt seem to want to work. I can see the boned mesh in Deep Exploration, but max refuses to import it.
:(
Raj
wolf359 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 6:51 AM
I should add that I dont understand this attitude of some that this new propack
harms us "little guys" (hobbyists)
How??? if one assumes you needs nothing from this new version
than how come you are harmed by its existence
Just use your current seat of P6-P7 etc as you have been thus far
"they are going to focus support on propack and leave us non pros in the lurch"
How does one conclude this???
this is what continues to amaze me about many poser "consumers"
we buy TANGIBLE GOODS like automobiles with certain features( AC/AM/FM radio etc) and drive them for YEARS even Decades knowing full well the manufacture
is constantly releasing newer MORE EXPENSIVE models with more "pro features"
(antilock brakes,satelite radio/navigation ,MP3 DVD etc.)
You buy a piece of software or poser model and DAZ. ,EF or whomever
release a new version and you behave as though you been somehow "betrayed"
WHY???
because there going to be exciting cool stuff and forum discussion about the new version and im stuck using my old V3 and her 62 gigs worth of content??
@pjz99 I do agree that anyone using any of the high end apps mentioned
likely does not care about rendering in firefly networked or otherwise.
dirk5027 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 6:55 AM
I find this hysterical,with p7 basically being a p6 redo, p6 being a glorified p5, do you honestly think this version is gonna be any better? All these guys want is your money and they KNOW so many poser addicts will jump GOOD LUCK
tvining posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 7:43 AM
Lilly Tomlin contends that man developed language because of his deep-seated need to complain ;-) Seriously, tho, I've curse EF as much as anyone, but more for what they haven't done than what they have, namely the lack of integration with other apps. What's really happening, I think, is less that Poser is trying to become a high-end program and dump the hobbyists, so much as it's that these cheaper programs that do one thing very well are now getting powerful enough to be useful on a higher level--Vue is still a couple hundred bucks, but was used by ILM on a mega-million dollar movie ("Pirates of the Carribean"); zBrush is still about $300 and was used in "Lord of the Rings"; Poser seems to finally be following suit and integrating with the higher programs, and I think everyone will benefit--not least EF, who I think will be smacking themselves on the heads a year from now and wondering why they didn't do this sooner.
Penguinisto posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 9:24 AM
Quote - perhaps it means that "poser 8 standard edition" will still allow default users to render giant-boobed zombies with nostril-glow.
-and a slightly cross-eyed stare ;) I'm curious as to why there wasn't a 64-bit render engine for us Mac-heads back in P6 (The G5's can certainly do it...) > Quote - I'm looking forward to this one. Who knows? Perhaps Poser will even get some respect..........
I wouldn't bet the farm on it. Abandon joints for rigging, chuck out that slow-as-molasses dynamic cloth thingy, and put in some faster collision detection (you can do it near-real-time in OpenGL), fix the eternally busted wind-effects thingy on both dynamic cloth and hair, and fix the materials so that they export worth a damn... ...then we'll talk about respect among the pro crowd. ;) > Quote - People don't generally stick with Poser because it's a great renderer, they use it because it's a cheap alternative and there's a lot of easy-to-use cheap content.
If I may correct, they use it because it (was) a cheap [i]compositor[/i] with a lot of cheap content. But otherwise I agree with you perfectly. Meh - I'll see what comes of it. I still haven't bothered w/ getting Poser 7 yet... haven't seen any need to. /P
XENOPHONZ posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 9:52 AM
Quote - People don't generally stick with Poser because it's a great renderer,
IMO, that's the main -- and the most legitimate -- criticism of Poser. Poser's renderer definitely has its limitations. However: the "cheap" aspect of Poser has never bothered me in the way that it seems to bother some. For whatever reason, there appears to be an attitude floating around which says that "if it didn't cost at least $1000, then it's garbage". As has already been mentioned -- both ZBrush and Vue aren't super-expensive apps: but they are both excellent apps.
I'm not saying that this reflects your attitude -- I don't really know you. But the mere fact that something costs less doesn't automatically mean that it's worthless. Or even that it's necessarily "less than".
Quote - By the way any folks who already own and use P7, you can take it for granted you will be getting low priority support for the next year or two, while the business is focused on delivering and supporting this new Pro version.
Well.......I'm not going to make that assumption. E-frontier has presumably been working on this new version of Poser for some time now. They've still managed to turn out some SR's for P7 in the meantime. We might see more of them. To me, this fact is evidence that P7 users have most definitely not been "abandoned".
And, no -- I don't view the release of a "pro" version of Poser as an indication that e-frontier is abandoning its hobbyist base. Ya know, I just don't understand why great news is always twisted to make it into bad news..................but that's the way of things in the Poserverse.
dvlenk6 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 12:54 PM
Quote - ...For whatever reason, there appears to be an attitude floating around which says that "if it didn't cost at least $1000, then it's garbage"....
Where does that come from?
All I've ever seen is that a good app that is inexpensive is a good bargain. There's a couple of them around, even some freebies.
Friends don't let friends use booleans.
XENOPHONZ posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 1:20 PM
Quote - Where does that come from?
Oh.....I've seen it. While it's rarely -- if ever -- stated quite so blantantly: it's fairly obvious that it's a type of snobbery which is often found lurking under the surface of an occasional off-handed comment. And not just in these forums -- many of the anti-Poser remarks that one sees in high-end forums fall into this same category. "It didn't cost much, so it can't be worth much, either."
It's a line of thinking similar to judging the value of a work of art based upon the amount of time that it took to make it. I.E. -- an 8-hour render is inherently better than a 1-hour render. Not necessarily -- but hey, it cost more -- so it follows that it's got to be worth more. To follow the logic: a 12-hour render is better than an 8-hour render........and so forth.
I suppose that the best 3D app in the world is the most expensive one. Which is a possiblity -- but I wouldn't just automatically assume that it's true.
dvlenk6 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 1:56 PM
The lack of enthusiasm for Poser isn't because it doesn't cost alot. It is because of licensing restrictions and the overall lack of usability of the program.
Architecture?...Industrial Design?...Game Design?...Real-Time?
You can't blame someone working in industry that has no use for Poser for not using Poser!!!
You also can't blame an animation studio working with multi-million dollar budgets under intense pressure from wanting to use the best tool they can get their hands on.
That isn't elitism, it is reality, and common sense.
You might as well go ahead and try to explain that rendertime nonsense you are talking about too. I have never, ever, EVER seen anybody anywhere at anytime say that 'slower is better' in any area of 3d graphics; or any time (=money) based operation for that matter.
Friends don't let friends use booleans.
Penguinisto posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 2:29 PM
Quote - > Quote - ...For whatever reason, there appears to be an attitude floating around which says that "if it didn't cost at least $1000, then it's garbage"....
Where does that come from?
All I've ever seen is that a good app that is inexpensive is a good bargain. There's a couple of them around, even some freebies.
Agreed. Blender is a pro-level app (and yes, is often used as such), but you can get it (and its source code!) for free. Gratis. $0.00.
Quote - The lack of enthusiasm for Poser isn't because it doesn't cost alot. It is because of licensing restrictions and the overall lack of usability of the program.
Actually, the former ain't really it (Have you seen 3DS' license software dongle mess? Blecch).
The latter however is true. Workflow gets pretty convoluted once you take into account the joint-to-skeleton path you must take, the "oh, crap - NOW what's missing!?" materials import handling, and the fact that morphs don't often make it out of Poser alive.
It can be done, but it ain't easy.
Also, agreed on the render-time aspect. Faster calc-time is better, and I don't care who you are - hobbyist or pro.
/P
XENOPHONZ posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 2:52 PM
Quote - The lack of enthusiasm for Poser isn't because it doesn't cost alot. It is because of licensing restrictions and the overall lack of usability of the program.
Architecture?...Industrial Design?...Game Design?...Real-Time?
You can't blame someone working in industry that has no use for Poser for not using Poser!!!
You also can't blame an animation studio working with multi-million dollar budgets under intense pressure from wanting to use the best tool they can get their hands on.
That isn't elitism, it is reality, and common sense.
?
What on earth are you talking about? WHERE did I say that those "with no use for Poser should use Poser"? Nor did I insist that "animation studios with multi-million dollar budgets" should use Poser. Talk about your straw man arguments......... :rolleyes:
You appear to be completely missing my point here -- my comments weren't referring to technicalities -- they were referring to attitudes.
So.....Maya is "better" than Poser? Yes......but the mere fact of "inexpensiveness" doesn't mean that something is as worthless as some claim. And, yes -- I have seen such attitudes come across.
Quote - You might as well go ahead and try to explain that rendertime nonsense you are talking about too. I have never, ever, EVER seen anybody anywhere at anytime say that 'slower is better' in any area of 3d graphics; or any time (=money) based operation for that matter.
You might as well go ahead and explain your nonsense over whatever it is that you are talking about here. Once again: I was referring to attitudes. However, there's a danger in communicating subtlety in the forums. Such matters sometimes manage to totally escape the notice of the literally-minded.
Yes -- I've seen such attitudes on display. Perhaps you don't notice them: but that wouldn't be surprising.
XENOPHONZ posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 2:59 PM
Quote - The lack of enthusiasm for Poser isn't because it doesn't cost alot. It is because of licensing restrictions and the overall lack of usability of the program.
Once again: I believe that we are just slightly missing the point here. These matters are exactly what this new version of Poser is intended to address. Whether or not it succeeds at that task remains to be seen -- but personally, I'm heartened by the fact that e-frontier is aiming in that direction.
pjz99 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 4:11 PM
Quote - ..."if it didn't cost at least $1000, then it's garbage". As has already been mentioned -- both ZBrush and Vue aren't super-expensive apps: but they are both excellent apps.
I'm not saying that this reflects your attitude -- I don't really know you. But the mere fact that something costs less doesn't automatically mean that it's worthless. Or even that it's necessarily "less than".
I was using "cheap" in the positive sense - and pointing out that EF is positioning "Pro" to go to a not-cheap model. From reading the press release, I didn't get the impression the price is going to go DOWN, and the a la carte model they're switching to, seeing how successful it is for other companies like Maxon and Autodesk - I think it is very likely they're moving away from cheap. How much money are you willing to pay for the same basic render capabilities that you already own?
Quote - Well.......I'm not going to make that assumption. E-frontier has presumably been working on this new version of Poser for some time now. They've still managed to turn out some SR's for P7 in the meantime. We might see more of them. To me, this fact is evidence that P7 users have most definitely not been "abandoned".
Look, you can't have it both ways - either:
a) Pro will be a cool, valuable app packed with robust new function, in which case, unless they immediately hire a bunch of people and instantly get them trained or did such on the QT - the existing EF staff will be busy writing, testing, debugging, re-writing, re-testing, documenting, packaging, marketing, shipping, and supporting this robust new function
b) Pro will be very much like Poser 7 with little new function or increased robust-ness except the few things mentioned in the press release (content export of unknown accuracy, networking the aforementioned poor render engine, some memory management improvement under 64-bit).
Which product do you think will be dealt with "in spare time" - the copies of P7 they've already got the money for, or the new product that hasn't paid for itself yet? Sane business practices dictate the latter. We'll see how it turns out, but I find very little to be optimistic about in this announcement.
Kaji posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 4:15 PM
I still don't understand why they are trying to aim in this direction.
Even if Poser was as good as Maya,C4D, Max, etc... it still wouldn't be used in production because you cannot make a model from the ground up. I've heard this hundreds of times on the CGS forums.
If they throw in some modeling capability... then there is some serious competition.
pjz99 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 4:24 PM
It may be that DAZ forced their hand by stuffing COLLADA export into DAS|Studio and giving it away free, and EF is having to accelerate their development and release of Pro, and make money on that feature while it's still fresh.
XENOPHONZ posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 5:32 PM
Quote - I was using "cheap" in the positive sense - and pointing out that EF is positioning "Pro" to go to a not-cheap model. From reading the press release, I didn't get the impression the price is going to go DOWN, and the a la carte model they're switching to, seeing how successful it is for other companies like Maxon and Autodesk - I think it is very likely they're moving away from cheap. How much money are you willing to pay for the same basic render capabilities that you already own?
I suspected that you were using "cheap" in a good sense, and I took that into account. Many others don't mean "cheap" in a good sense -- and I was taking that into account, too.
Once again -- I believe that you are making a whole passle of assumptions here. While I certainly agree with you that this new version will undoubtedly cost more, I disagree with the idea that good news = bad news. That is, I don't see the release of a pro version of Poser as indicating that e-frontier is now merely going to be charging us more for the same functionality as what's currently already found in P7 + a few minor added bells & whistles. It appears that I'm seeing a lot more to be happy about from e-frontier's announcement than you are.
Quote - Look, you can't have it both ways - either:
a) Pro will be a cool, valuable app packed with robust new function, in which case, unless they immediately hire a bunch of people and instantly get them trained or did such on the QT - the existing EF staff will be busy writing, testing, debugging, re-writing, re-testing, documenting, packaging, marketing, shipping, and supporting this robust new function
b) Pro will be very much like Poser 7 with little new function or increased robust-ness except the few things mentioned in the press release (content export of unknown accuracy, networking the aforementioned poor render engine, some memory management improvement under 64-bit).Which product do you think will be dealt with "in spare time" - the copies of P7 they've already got the money for, or the new product that hasn't paid for itself yet? Sane business practices dictate the latter.
Frankly, I don't see why you "can't have it both ways". For that matter -- I don't understand why this situation even falls under the rubric of "having it both ways". Lots of companies produce & sell more than one software package at a time -- and they still manage to support them all. You might argue the tack that e-frontier is somehow incapable of preforming such a 'delicate' balancing act between apps as is performed successfully by many, many other companies -- but I tend to doubt it. There's no reason why they can't do both "hobbyist" and "pro" versions of the software -- and do it while supporting ALL of their customers.
Quote - We'll see how it turns out, but I find very little to be optimistic about in this announcement.
And that's the core of our disagreement. I see lots to be optimistic about in this announcement.
I have Lightwave all warmed up and waiting.
dvlenk6 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 6:00 PM
These are the same arguments that happened when DAZ bought Carrara. There was a lot of animosity between the Carrara and Bryce communities. Everyone was upset and assumed that the app they were using would be shortchanged. DAZ has managed to keep both products seperated, targetted at different user bases, and under development.
I don't why E-F couldn't do the same thing.
It could easily turn out that advanced features from a pro version could trickle down to the standard version and force it to develop even more quickly.
Friends don't let friends use booleans.
Morgano posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 7:01 PM
I had the e-mail from DAZ about Carrara 6 (since I already own Carrara 5, I wish they'd stop trying to sell it to me again) and I think the top of the e-mail comprised three banners along the lines of "Beyond DAZ Studio"
"Beyond Bryce"
"Beyond Hexagon".
Not having the e-mail any longer, I'm not going to swear to the wording, but the impression I got was that Carrara 6 was being established as the next port-of-call for anyone using DS, Bryce, or Hexagon. If Bryce, DS and Hex are going to be developed indefinitely and distributed free, or at rock-bottom prices, who's going to fork out for new levels of Carrara? My guess is that Bryce, Hexagon and DS are being used to entice as many users as possible in the direction of Carrara 6. If Carrara 6 succeeds, i.e. makes money, DS, Bryce and Hexagon will be history before very long, I suspect.
RajDArge posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 7:21 PM
for those of us that aren't interested in blathering on in speculation alone: this is the response from e-frontier about the crippled poser7 from their free beta release of the Collada Exporter:-
*Thanks for letting us know! This is a known issue, and we're working to fix it. For the moment there are a couple of things you could try (although we can't guarantee their success.)
- msvcm80.dll
- mscvcp80.dll
- msvcr80.dll
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyID=200b2fd9-ae1a-4a14-984d-389c36f85647&displaylang=en
Do let us know if you apply these fixes and how they work.
As this is still a fairly early beta version of the export script we welcome this kind of report!
Regards, Colin
Technical Support*
Dale B posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 7:58 PM
Hmm. Since deleting the Collada plugin seems to revive things, tell us how it goes.... ;) It's going to be interesting to see how well the Firefly renderer performs as a node (as in, not saddled with the GUI and library overhead). It may not be Renderman, but then again no one here is Pixar. Combined with the Collada output of lights and camera paths, this will open the way to render figure animations in Poser, export the light and camera data into another app, and generate scene elements there ready for matchmoving....or even simple compositing. That alone is going to open up the animation use possibilities with Poser in environments where you don't have to own every bloody polygon. Studios probably wouldn't touch it (except maybe for storyboarding; 3D pre vis can really save headaches later); but only a fraction of users of those higher end apps work at such studios. A big chunk of them are solo contractors....and if Vickie and PoserPro cuts costs and time, then the real professionals (ie: those who make a living at this) will start using the tool more when needed. E-on software manages 4 software lines of their flagship product, and there is filterdown of tech at version changes (like the Ecosystems 1 module that gives V6Pro and Esprit access to the tech formerly only in V5I and Xstream). Once they have Collada support working, the next logical step is extending the apps ability to handle more import info; such as some kind of rigging translation. E-frontier has been adding the things we've been asking for; from the sound of things, the new PPro is also still in early beta...so there is no telling what may be added or changed before release.
pjz99 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 8:01 PM
Quote - Frankly, I don't see why you "can't have it both ways". For that matter -- I don't understand why this situation even falls under the rubric of "having it both ways". Lots of companies produce & sell more than one software package at a time -- and they still manage to support them all. You might argue the tack that e-frontier is somehow incapable of preforming such a 'delicate' balancing act between apps as is performed successfully by many, many other companies -- but I tend to doubt it. There's no reason why they can't do both "hobbyist" and "pro" versions of the software -- and do it while supporting ALL of their customers.
It seems very likely to me that you've never participated in a large scale software rollout. "Many, many" companies simply do not operate that way. They either develop and software with existing staff, which means that staff is fully utilized while this goes on, or they hire short term labor for the development effort and fire them when done. The latter is more common for isolated development efforts, but this is a moderate extension of Poser 7, so it'd be madness to use outside staff for that. Possibly to supplement existing staff, but even then there'd be training time required. Producing commercial software is not something you do on a casual basis, it's full time work.
Penguinisto posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 8:12 PM
Quote - It may be that DAZ forced their hand by stuffing COLLADA export into DAS|Studio and giving it away free, and EF is having to accelerate their development and release of Pro, and make money on that feature while it's still fresh.
And "Bingo" has been called, ladies and gentlemen... ! FBX nobody really cared too much about becuase the format itself was, well... crap. Only a few high-end proggies even bothered. Collada OTOH? Judging by the instant hard-ons I see when I mention the word to the mesh-heads at work, I think it's prolly a damned good thing to have if you intend on staying in the 3D mesh programming game. > Quote - Not having the e-mail any longer, I'm not going to swear to the wording, but the impression I got was that Carrara 6 was being established as the next port-of-call for anyone using DS, Bryce, or Hexagon
D|S will be around forever, as an entry-point to 3D for those who want to give it a whirl, or who don't need retina-bleeding results. Carrara is one hell of a complete suite that's priced very nicely, and has the flexibility to grow. Bryce? Prolly will be kept in semi-legacy mode (I dunno, maybe they'll keep it up indefinitely). Hexagon? Heh.. Hehehe.. ROTFLMAO! (that means: it needs work. Lots of work.) > Quote - "Many, many" companies simply do not operate that way. They either develop and software with existing staff, which means that staff is fully utilized while this goes on, or they hire short term labor for the development effort and fire them when done.
Or option #3: contract out what you need done via out-sourcing or intra-sourcing. ;) /P
pjz99 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 8:50 PM
That's kind of a variation on #2 really. ^_^
edit: short term labor = contract
XENOPHONZ posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 10:00 PM
Quote - It seems very likely to me that you've never participated in a large scale software rollout. "Many, many" companies simply do not operate that way. They either develop and software with existing staff, which means that staff is fully utilized while this goes on, or they hire short term labor for the development effort and fire them when done. The latter is more common for isolated development efforts, but this is a moderate extension of Poser 7, so it'd be madness to use outside staff for that. Possibly to supplement existing staff, but even then there'd be training time required. Producing commercial software is not something you do on a casual basis, it's full time work.
That's all well and good -- but it's pretty much irrelevant to what we're talking about. You seem to be operating under the assumption that the release of a new software package automatically means the denegration of service on other existing software packages which are produced by the same company. That's like saying that the release of a new version of Lightwave instantly equates to Newtek neglecting support to it's VT[4] customers. Or that the release of a new version of Microsoft Office instantly means less corporate support for Windows.
Whether the work is contracted out or done entirely in-house -- while it might be critical to internal corporate function -- it is rather meaningless from the viewpoint of end users. The only thing that the end users see is the final product itself. Not how many programmers were required to get the software finished.......and whether or not those programmers were in-sourced or out-sourced. Those types of issues are matters which I'm sure that the management at e-frontier has well in hand.
It's not a zero-sum game. The addition of a new thing doesn't mean the corresponding loss of something to someone else. As you yourself have indicated: they can always hire more staff, or out-source, if needed.
The issue that'll matter to an end-user is whether or not they are receiving support for their product (P7). And once again: I submit that several SR's for P7 being rolled out at the same time that "Poser Pro" (if that's what they'll call it) was clearly under development is a strong indication that e-frontier has by no means 'abandoned' their P7 user base. If anything, I submit that they are going strong in developing their product(s) -- and their market share. Which is all good, in my book.
pjz99 posted Wed, 08 August 2007 at 10:25 PM
XENOPHONZ posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 12:18 AM
OK - am I supposed to be the Tinkerbell, or am I the Lost Boy? Am I the kid who couldn't wait to become an adult, or am I the kid who never wanted to grow up? Or is Tinkerbell a Freudian symbol for the existential gestalt of all silly males of the species in general? These are deep waters, Watson........deep, and rather dirty.............I'll have to give the matter some matching Deep Thought.
:biggrin:
Until we can find the answers to these vital questions: I'm still looking forward to the release of Poser Pro.
I'll leave you tonight with greater depths to plumb:
Penguinisto posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 9:16 AM
Quote - > Quote - It seems very likely to me that you've never participated in a large scale software rollout. "Many, many" companies simply do not operate that way. They either develop and software with existing staff, which means that staff is fully utilized while this goes on, or they hire short term labor for the development effort and fire them when done. The latter is more common for isolated development efforts, but this is a moderate extension of Poser 7, so it'd be madness to use outside staff for that. Possibly to supplement existing staff, but even then there'd be training time required. Producing commercial software is not something you do on a casual basis, it's full time work.
That's all well and good -- but it's pretty much irrelevant to what we're talking about. You seem to be operating under the assumption that the release of a new software package automatically means the denegration of service on other existing software packages which are produced by the same company.
Umm, it's not irrelevant. Lookit - say you're a software company. You have x number of programmers in your corral. Each programmer (if they're actually worth a damn) is going to cost you roughly $30-$50/hr in labor, with your top codemonkeys and architects costing you $60/hr (or more... very often more). Assuming you have one architect and three codemonkeys on Project #1 (being the size and complxity of Poser), and they take 18 months to build it from scratch, you paid out at least $450,000 in labor alone. This isn't counting the rough $20,000 - $30,000 in equipment, software licensing fees, etc. A new project can cost the same in addition if it has a completely different codebase, or a percentage thereof if it uses the same codebase. Either way, each new codemonkey still comes in at $30-$50/hr, and comes with lag-time while each gets up to snuff. Now with your company, you go from one product to two. The first is still constantly evolving, so you need at least 50-75% of your staff to keep going on that after it launches. Product #2 means you have to hire more people. If you cannot afford to do that, it won't get built (especially if Product #2 is just as complex and has a different codebase). Each new person you hire will take roughly 2-6 months (depending) to get up to speed on your codebase, methods, standards, design specs, etc. This means you still have a deficiency of talent, no matter which route you take. Therefore, you get to prioritize. You leave a couple of folks on Product #1 in maintenance mode (bug fixes, etc), while you concentrate on #2. Now granted that "Poser Pro" is essentially the same codebase as "Poser", so it isn't as large a split, but it still means a division of labor. It also means one other question: Which do you focus on the most? Where does your company's future lie? Which market do you bet the farm on if they differ and budgets get tight? > Quote - I submit that several SR's for P7 being rolled out at the same time that "Poser Pro" (if that's what they'll call it) was clearly under development is a strong indication that e-frontier has by no means 'abandoned' their P7 user base.
I will allow that they haven't - yet- but only insofar that the two are essentially the same codebase. That said, the more differentiation there is/becomes, the bigger the division of labor between the two, and there is still the overall company focus on which market it wants to court the most. /P
XENOPHONZ posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 11:07 AM
The same folks who make Ford F150 pick-ups also make Jaguars -- clearly catering to two very different markets at the same time.
BTW - I once worked on contract for Bechtel -- on a project for Kodak. You know - Kodak, the film company? Well, it turns out that Kodak also produces raw plastics for use in food containers. Who'd have thunk it? They make other products, too.........and they manage to support them all.
Companies -- including software companies -- have the ability to diversify. In fact, in today's economy it's a very good idea for them to do so. Sure, they can hire in a bunch of expensive contractors -- which some companies have decided is actually a cheaper alternative to hiring permanent staff.
I'm not a programmer, so I haven't worked for any software houses. But I can tell you that in the engineering world, you'll often find very different products being fabricated by the same company -- sometimes even on the same site. And sometimes even with the same staff in charge of all production.
No doubt that it's a balancing act - but I believe that even a software company can pull it off. There are just a few out there who do..........
Once again: we'll see what e-frontier does. I'll admit to the possibility that this new software package could ultimately turn out to be a disappointment.......such is life. And it's conceivable that e-frontier could, long-term, dump its hobbyist products in favor of a totally pro market (although I strongly doubt it). But I won't make such negative assumptions in advance -- and then treat them as foregone conclusions. Nor will I knee-jerk assume that P7 customers will be left out in the cold to go begging for their bread once Poser Pro gets released. Instead, I'll wait and see what e-frontier actually does, and not what outside observers inform me and others that they are going to do -- with all of the self-assured certainty of the man who declares to you that he just KNOWS that the Illuminati are plotting to take over the world.
shrug Perhaps it IS true that the Illuminati are going to take over everything with black helicopters -- but I'll only believe it when I see it. In the meantime, I'll wait to find out whether e-frontier is going to land a black helicopter squarely in my backyard -- or if the (highly speculative) dire conspiracy theories all turn out to be just another joke.
I know how I'm betting. E-frontier might fumble the ball. But I'd advise them not to --- and based upon their growth record so far -- even with all of the sound & fury which has accompanied it -- I'm anticipating good things.
Penguinisto posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 11:56 AM
Quote - The same folks who make Ford F150 pick-ups also make Jaguars -- clearly catering to two very different markets at the same time.
Apples/Oranges comparison: Ford and Bechtel are gigantic corporations, and don't have the same mechanics of production and design as software. Companies of EF and DAZ' size don't have the luxury of stocks, R&D departments, massive cash reserves, legal departments (because software patents are 'teh suck'), test markets, focus groups, etc.
Yet even there, you often see products that simply get orphaned (Corel has one hell of an impressive graveyard, which once included Bryce for a time. If DAZ hadn't bought it, odds are very good that it would be abandonware by now. Don't believe me? Look up "Canoma").
Quote - Companies -- including software companies -- have the ability to diversify. In fact, in today's economy it's a very good idea for them to do so.
Say that you're a company with 30-40 employees total, probably less. You have an annual budget that requires careful attention towards chasing down every stray dime. Each new programmer is guaranteed to pack at least $60k+ / yr onto your overhead. How many can you afford to throw at something new again when you have existing products to shepard along?
Thought so.
Quote - I'm not a programmer, so I haven't worked for any software houses.
Nor (apparently) have you ever had to run a small business and make it grow. Not an insult, just a statement.
It's a whole different world in there, 'mano... with a whole bucket of different rules and dynamics.
Quote - Once again: we'll see what e-frontier does. I'll admit to the possibility that this new software package could ultimately turn out to be a disappointment.......such is life. And it's conceivable that e-frontier could, long-term, dump its hobbyist products in favor of a totally pro market (although I strongly doubt it).
For the former, who knows? That depends on the product, how useful it can be to the target market, how solid/buggy it is, etc etc.
For the latter? Depends on how lucrative things are. If they see a flush of money and potential coming from the pros (or pro-level buyers), then that's where they're going to point their ship.
Quote - But I won't make such negative assumptions in advance -- and then treat them as foregone conclusions.
Nor will I. Me, my current interests stretch only as far as what I can get poser stuff to do in either D|S (primarily) or P6.
Quote - I know how I'm betting. E-frontier might fumble the ball. But I'd advise them not to --- and based upon their growth record so far -- even with all of the sound & fury which has accompanied it -- I'm anticipating good things.
The really fun part is, I'm not in the biz insofar as Poserdom... I swim with bigger fish nowadays; folks who think nothing of dropping a metric ton of cash onto whatever they deem needed and necessary. No makey here shrug.
That said, I've seen and known the smaller houses, and I know the balancing acts they get to perform. But then, the bigger risk often leads to bigger reward if it's calculated right.
/P
CuriousGeorge posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 12:11 PM
Anyone considered that a version of poser with serious integration with other "high-end" 3d apps would make it a prospective aquisition?
Cuz shade ain't all that.
PXP posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 2:31 PM
@casette
I have to completely agree with casette. On this occassion I'm going to sit it out until the second Poser Pro SR2 gets released. Poser 7 keeps crashing on me during renders and file saves etc its a real problem and I hate it, so casinos be damned they can even package in a 64 bit machine I'll still sit it out, heck Poser 7 is full of bugs and they haven't even sorted things out so what gives it the right to go Pro?
PXP
wolf359 posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 2:46 PM
This talk of hobbyist being "abandonded" by a new version of poser
is just just silly myopic,selfish,entitlement for life, netizen nonsense!!!
there are people still running poser 4-5-6
that fact that those versions are no longger being developed
has not stopped users from rendering in them.
Casette posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 3:01 PM
Dudes, you talk a lot
I simply hate 'Professional' word added to new Poser. Perhaps marketing people at eF thought 'Professional' word convert Poser in a serious 3D software (taking sounds of previous 'professional' versions of software like Office, XP, Nero Burning-Rom, etc). Using poser content in Carrara, 3DMax or Maya doesn't convert a software in professional, but its result. I mean: a software fully functional without waiting a second SR pack
I'll follow earn money with my 'unprofessional' Poser7 by the moment :P
CASETTE
=======
"Poser isn't a SOFTWARE... it's a RELIGION!"
XENOPHONZ posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 4:43 PM
Quote - Dudes, you talk a lot
Yes, we do -- but it's so much FUN, right? That's why other folks read the threads. :biggrin: And that's what public forums are for. It's about like setting up a soapbox on a streetcorner.
Peng, I'm currently too tied up at the small business that I now work for to take the time to answer you point-by-point. Maybe I'll have some time to kill later tonight. But I will say that this is the type of subject that we can end up arguing into the ground after awhile.........we just ain't likely to agree here, no matter what gets said.
Newtek is a much smaller company than Bechtel, or Fluor Daniel, or Raytheon, or any of the other very large corporations that I have worked for over the years. But Newtek still manages to produce several different software packages -- and they do so effectively. In the case of a growing company like e-frontier -- which I remind you has its corporate headquarters in Japan, not in San Francisco -- I can envision their eventual arrival at the Newtek level. Corporate size might be a limiting factor -- but it's not a stopping point. Companies have been known to grow & to branch out into new markets over time.
Ford & Bechtel both started out pretty small, too.
Most musicians can play more than one note. I have the feeling that e-frontier is going to surprise some people with where they are headed.
Now........shifting gears back to conduits, cables and power transformers..........
XENOPHONZ posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 4:53 PM
Quote - Anyone considered that a version of poser with serious integration with other "high-end" 3d apps would make it a prospective aquisition?
That thought has crossed my mind, too. But we forumites don't have any more control over that possibility than we do over which products e-frontier does or does not choose to release.
XENOPHONZ posted Thu, 09 August 2007 at 4:57 PM
Quote - This talk of hobbyist being "abandonded" by a new version of poser
is just just silly myopic,selfish,entitlement for life, netizen nonsense!!!
there are people still running poser 4-5-6
that fact that those versions are no longger being developed
has not stopped users from rendering in them.
On this point we agree 100%.
byAnton posted Fri, 10 August 2007 at 12:02 AM
Well....
Although I am not a fan of non-linear versions of Poser, I think this is fun news. My guess is eventually this version, like ProPack, will become a base for all future versions of Poser.
I suspect this may actually have started as Poser 8, considering this have "marking department" written all over it. It will be interesting to see if like PhotoShop CS, this is a name change and/or how an actual Poser 8 will differ.
Personally I think the "professional" marketing angle is very last decade, but I think it sounds great regardless.
-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the
face of truth is concealment."
ghonma posted Fri, 10 August 2007 at 1:27 AM
Quote - Although I am not a fan of non-linear versions of Poser, I think this is fun news. My guess is eventually this version, like ProPack, will become a base for all future versions of Poser.
Agreed... this how it works in most cases. The cutting edge stuff goes in the expensive version first, but eventually trickles down to the other versions as well. The early adopters pay for the bragging rights and the rest lag behind but also avoid the bugs.
Quote - Anyone considered that a version of poser with serious integration with other "high-end" 3d apps would make it a prospective aquisition?
Haha, 'Autodesk Poser 8 pro'
Or iPoser ?
destro75 posted Fri, 10 August 2007 at 9:38 AM
Quote - Dudes, you talk a lot
I simply hate 'Professional' word added to new Poser. Perhaps marketing people at eF thought 'Professional' word convert Poser in a serious 3D software (taking sounds of previous 'professional' versions of software like Office, XP, Nero Burning-Rom, etc). Using poser content in Carrara, 3DMax or Maya doesn't convert a software in professional, but its result. I mean: a software fully functional without waiting a second SR pack
I'll follow earn money with my 'unprofessional' Poser7 by the moment :P
Interesting. Did you also have a problem with Poser 4 ProPack? :b_unbelievable:
jugoth posted Fri, 10 August 2007 at 4:07 PM
Now will it work with vista 64 or be xp 64 compatible as vista 64 wont have a lot of drivers or software support, vista 32 will get most.
Again like xp home and xp pro vista 64 will have safety features that would not be included in vista 32, so vista 64 better for search Internet than vista 32.
If you look at what vista 32 can do then what vista 64 can do i bet ya a lot of 32 bit vista users gonna be screaming holy murder, as their are some very juicy safety features in vista 64 that will make vista 32 users green with envy.
Dale B posted Fri, 10 August 2007 at 4:37 PM
I'm still betting that we may see either weightmapping or sub-D polys implemented, as well as a GUI facelift... The real question is going to be what the upgrade price will be....
wolf359 posted Sat, 11 August 2007 at 3:40 PM
This is what someone in the C4d Forum reported fresh back siggraph 07
"I just came back from Siggraph. and did some grilling over at the EF booth, and at no time did they say that any rigging would be involved with ANY of the export options from Poser Pro, in fact they were very specific in saying that animation export would be completely handled using deformers."
Yep Just NON interactive "hosting"
just like the old propack4
meaning the physics/dynamics engine of LW /MAX etc. will ignore your "hosted"poser figure
you want to change clothes/hair/expression you go BACK to poser and resave.
Oh well i suppose a "guest appearance" in a high end app for rendering only is better than not at all
operaguy posted Sat, 11 August 2007 at 4:57 PM
thanks for that Wolf. So, it's about the same as the "BodyStudio" solution, which ain't that terrif. I have a Max 1-month trial and Body Studio and Poser 7, and in my attempts to get it humming, it does not "guest host" textures and shaders very well. Textures either not found (even though all my paths are easy and correct), or you get a memory error on V4 hi-res skin texture maps.
I am very much on a new belief system: Actual, live 3DS Max . I know, I know, $3500, but I am getting to the point of 'enough already.'
However, I would still want to get 'poser-universe' assets into Max, and ambiously would like to get more than just mesh. I'd like morphs and texture maps also. Rigging? I don't know....poser rigging ain't Max rigging. Shaders? They have to be at minimum tweaked, why bother. Just get me the mesh, the texture maps and the morphs into Max.
I still look forward to Poser Pro.
Anybody want to make long shot speculation on price?
If Poser 7 now costs $249......
My guess is Poser Pro $499
Upgrades for Poser 4/5/6/7 owners: $199
If the new render engine turns out to be VRay in disguise, then all bets are off.
::::: Opera :::::
wolf359 posted Sat, 11 August 2007 at 5:47 PM
"thanks for that Wolf. So, it's about the same as the "BodyStudio" solution, which ain't that terrif. I have a Max 1-month trial and Body Studio
and Poser 7, and in my attempts to get it humming, it does not "guest host" textures and shaders very well. Textures either not found
(even though all my paths are easy and correct), or you get a memory error on V4 hi-res skin texture maps.
I ***am very much on a new belief system: Actual, live 3DS Max . I know, I know, $3500, but I am getting to the point of 'enough already.'
However, I would still want to get 'poser-universe' assets into Max, and ambiously would like to get more than just mesh.
I'd like morphs and texture maps also. Rigging? I don't know....poser rigging ain't Max rigging. Shaders? They have to be
at minimum tweaked, why bother. Just get me the mesh, the texture maps and the morphs into Max."***
Yes "Hosting" does have it limits as we learned with the older poser4 propack.
Im so glad we have at least one dedicated Cinema4D prgrammer/user
who successfully took on the task of creating a plugin that truly enables all poser functionality
(Sans Shaders&Python),
within cinema4D including morhp dials ,erc,and conforming to the point of not needing poser at all
just a proper runtime that you browse and load from within Cinema!!
"If the new render engine turns out to be VRay in disguise, then all bets are off"
What "new render engine"???
from all the press ive read its just the same old slow firefly
that now recognizes on 64 bit OS systems and will do network rendering.
Angelouscuitry posted Sun, 12 August 2007 at 11:02 AM
That was fast! We usually wait a year or two between versions!
I was expecting alot of this stuff from Poser 7, I wonder if they just should have postponed the release?
Kaji posted Sun, 12 August 2007 at 12:23 PM
I just installed P7 on XP 64 and I have to say that it behaves horribly. Daz studio has no problems even though it is only a 32 bit app. e frontier needs to update P7 instead of making us buy another program! I'm sticking with Daz studio and only opening Poser to use Wardrobe Wizard.