Hi,I just found out how poor this system is.! I just checked the sea/undersea genre...
 Max made an excellent image..     http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1482684  
 ...with 32 ratings,yet this image,that should be in the top 100 ratings has been excluded because someone rated it less than 5.
 Seems to me that we are all loosing out when work of this callibre does not get to what I believe is a showcase for the best of Bryce for the the whole of Renderosity!
  Thanks for the image Max!
Cheers! Jed.

I never pay attention to ratings. I usually turn them off (or at least as soon as I see that I forgot to!).

Pass no temptation lightly by, for one never knows when it may pass again!

That's a fantastic image.

Around here you have to flash tit and give the image some crap title like "Waiting  for her dream lover" to make top 100. Vacant looks and bad textures help as well. And don't forget to list the 30 people that actually made every item in the image that you are claiming as YOUR artwork. 

If anyone ever figures out how some renders get dozens of comments and perfect ratings, while excellent work like this doesn't, let me know, ok? All right everyone.. march to the link, comment, and rate! One of the all-time best Bryce images, IMHO.

Attached Link: Poser people and their people rant - a Draculaz Editorial

Scanmead, I figured it out right after joining this site and looking through the galleries when I finally understood the difference between the different 3D apps, and the apparent attitudes of the users.  I could rant some more about it, but I honestly think that has been covered in the [**Poser people and their people rant - a Draculaz Editorial**](../../mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2704512) thread.  So I will just quote **Cyba_Storm**, what he says sums up my feelings about the whole situation. 

And I went and commented and rated the image Scanmead, I don't think it will do any good at this point in time since someone possibly viewing the image as a prop instead of art gave it a bad rating because it didn't have giant breasts and nipples got to it already.  But I gave it a good rating anyway.  It deserves it.

Quote - Around here you have to flash tit and give the image some crap title like "Waiting  for her dream lover" to make top 100. Vacant looks and bad textures help as well. And don't forget to list the 30 people that actually made every item in the image that you are claiming as YOUR artwork. 

My apologies to Jedswindells and Max (and any others chasing a rating score)  I quit allowing ratings on my images about a year ago and quit rating images I viewed at the same time. 

I'm not sure but this may cause the overall rating of  someone's image to slip.  Hopefully a "no rating" would not effect the average.

Why do I not rate stuff anymore?  Well anyone who has been around here long enough will know that "art" is often subjective.  I will comment If I am inclined but I don't feel my opinions are educated enough to "rate/judge" someone else's work. 

I commented on that particular image and I also think it is impeccable and amazing... but I didn't rate it.  I left that box unchecked.

I'm glad I read this thread - I may have never discovered Max's work otherwise. Awesome images. Yes it's a shame that work of this standard doesn't get as much recognition as the many naked female images do:(  Good thread jed!

Beginners tutorials for Bryce

Bryce Arena

I just took a look a the top 100. Most are Poser and most contain nudity. Hey, sex sells, especially to the 18 to 34 year old crowd. (No offense to the younger Bryce artists, you're more sopisticated and talented than those Barbie pushers)

If you post ratings and comments to dozens of artists it's a given that they'll post comments and ratings back. Pretty much a no brainer. I noticed one artist (I won't mention his name) who was in the top 100 and has been caught red handed stealing other peoples work and claiming it as his own. This guy comments constantly. He needs approval and status even if it means ripping off the work of others.

Me, I make art for me, not for anyone else. If other people enjoy it and take the time to comment, thank you. And yes I enjoy it when someone says they like my work. Hey, who doesn't :)

I enjoy Bryce art because I see imagination, style, excellence and technical expertise that is mostly lacking in the Poser galleries. Yes, I know there are some really good Poser artists but they seem to be in the minority.  I guess I've see too many derivative, vacant eyed 'Naked Vicky In The Temple With A Sword' T&A poses.

Maybe the Top 100 should be renamed "The Top Poseur's" instead.

Sorry, I didn't mean to go off on a rant about Poser, but after seeing the Top 100 I just had to vent.

Everything today is about ratings; TV shows, politics, cars and soap. Everbody wants to be Number One. Today we seem to want to rate everything.

And if you think about it, who cares if you're top rated at Rendo? If you're more concerned about your rating than your work than you should be in advertising or on TV 'cause you sure as hell aren't creating anything of lasting value.Your art has just been reduced to a transitory numerical value.

As far as I'm concerned, screw the ratings, screw the Top 100, just create art you enjoy. That's what I'm going to do.

End of other rant.

Jacques

constantly.

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

i remember this image, i rated it some time ago, and it still looks awesome.

Experience is no substitute for blind faith.

http://avalon2000.livejournal.com/ - My Art Blog

http://jeferies.jalbum.net/Richard%20Jeferies%20Future%20Perfect/

The old "hot 20" system may have been highly flawed, but at least it meant that the pure poserholics could pat each other on the back in their own section, whereas nowadays there is only the one section to show the highest rated images.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

I saw Max's image a while back. Knocked my socks off. :)
Just a stunning piece of work,

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

gad..I just look at everything..;) I've gotten ratings in the past, recently those that show up are 5 and 4.5, and honestly folks, I'm not that good..;) But if it makes them feel good..;)

Good art doesn't need a ratings system. You're the toughest critic you'll ever face, so if it's good enough for you....

just went back and rechecked, and yes, I saw it, and yes, I liked it.

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

I'm with deadwarrior and pakled on this topic.  My art is to satisfy a personal need to create and express myself, if some other people get some pleasure from what I do whether it be on the computer or on canvas then thats a bonus for me.

Cheers
GG

WHO said Kiwi's can't Fly ?????

Freaky; I have, quite independently of this thread, just scanned through the 100 top-rated images here.  I may be slightly out, but of 100 images, only two weren't made with Poser, both of them being photos by the very excellent Valerie Ducom.  Of the remaining 98, I think one or two were some kind of troll thingy, the other 96 were of females in various stages of undress with a range of weapons,and a distinct immunity to gravity and shadows.  Now, being a Poser user with a penchant for naked females myself, I'm not pointing any fingers, but surely there's room for something else?

Reminded me of an article in 3D World magazine a while back, called something like "CG - What's with all the chicks?".  Then I read this thread, seems I'm not the only one who  thinks there's something rotten in the state!

My self-build system - Vista 64 on a Kingston 240GB SSD, Asus P5Q Pro MB, Quad 6600 CPU, 8 Gb Geil Black Dragon Ram, CoolerMaster HAF932 full tower chassis, EVGA Geforce GTX 750Ti Superclocked 2 Gb, Coolermaster V8 CPU aircooler, Enermax 600W Modular PSU, 240Gb SSD, 2Tb HDD storage, 28" LCD monitor, and more red LEDs than a grown man really needs.....I built it in 2008 and can't afford a new one, yet.....!

My Software - Poser Pro 2012, Photoshop, Bryce 6 and Borderlands......"Catch a  r--i---d-----e-----!"

 

If I were to include ratings in a gallery system, I think I would do it based on each category of software. Like.. top 100 Bryce images, top 100 Poser images, etc. But not group them into one lump rating system. Not all software is made equally, like the fractals. There are some excellent fractal artists out there, but I would not expect them to rate highly in a push-Poser site. So if I would have a rating system, it would be divided based on software. Then a page could show the top 1 of each software the site supports. If anyone is interested in more detail, they should be able to drill down and see the top 10 or 20 or 100 or 1000 of a specific software.

Either that, or I wouldn't support ratings at all.

Thanks for your replies!...but my main worry is that this system can relegate popular and competent work to the bottom of the pile because the rating is not the perfect 5.0000.
 I am talking of the ratings for individual Bryce genre which used to be a good quick referrence to some of the best work!
 An image may be 'rated' by 30+ members and if just one rates below 5,this work will be superceded by any pic with a 5.0000 score rated by 1 or 2 folk.
  I use the top 100 ratings and top100 comments to(hopefully!)access some of the best Bryce work posted on this site....'cause I'm lazy.So I assume many other members do the same!
 Sorry to bore you all with this but I think a simple 'yes or no'rating system works best!
 Regards Jed.

Surely when they fixed the problem with the hot 20, they thought it out carefully. It would only make sense that if an image were rated 10 times that it should rank higher than an image that only received 2 ratings. Hasn't anyone had a statistics course, don't they know about weighting the statistics? Sheesh.
Well when the Hot 20 went away I never bothered to look at its replacement and I'm glad I didn't.

In a nut shell, best rated is niether the best art nor the best technically.  I agree the top 100 is just a self-serving list of those most successful at coraling the votes. When the very first top 100 was posted at r'osity about a year ago the same discussions occured.  Nothing has changed and probably never will because this site has it's roots in Poser.

Any recognition of  non-Poser art would probably have to be initiated here in the forums. It would take an active mod to set things running though.  Where is AS?

I rarely rate images, even if I comment. But when an image of that quality appears, there should be some way of drawing attention to it. There are so many images uploaded every day, it's hard to slog through them all, and things get lost in the sheer volume. CGTalk has a good, but somewhat biased way of doing it: a Choice Gallery. Work is submitted, and acceptance is based on the admins decision. The Poser Forum here has Staff Picks for each month spotlighting excellent renders. Other than splitting the "most viewed" and "highest rated" into 'Poser' and 'everything else', I'm stumped.

Wait a second.  We can rate images?! 

I very quickly discovered that ratings are pointless, so I just ignore them.   It seems that a rating of anything other than 5 stars is a kick in the teeth for the artist.  

---------
Phillip Drawbridge
Website 
Facebook

Just a suggestion, but rather than rate work by number, rate them by the number of comments and views. If someone takes the time to look at my work and write a comment, it means more to me than a quick click of the ratings button. It means they liked what I created (or maybe not) ;D

Anyway, the more a work is seen seems to be a better indicator of its popularity than a number rating. It means your work stood out among many others, and someone liked it enough to click on the thumbnail and explore your work further.

Maybe they'll look at your gallery or add you as a favorite. But at least your work has caught their attention.

To me at least, that seems to be the best indicator of popularity: how many people see my work, not the number rating.

Like I said, it's just a suggestion.

Best,

Jacques

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

Who wants to be popular?   I think just post pictures as a way of showing people what you're up to.
Don't art charts work more like you suggested?   I'm not too sure, since I haven't looked since they were first introduced.

Phil

I DO!.....I DO!....I WANT TO BE VERY POPULAR! I know that all my V3s and V4s have light coming out of their nostrols, (somehow I don't think this is normal....but, hey....if you just ignore it....it still deserves a 5 rating and surely a fav too) and their zombie stares are sure evidence that I have no knowledge of how to change their expressions. Ok, Ok....I know too that the pose is as wooden as a board, and unnatural as hell....but just consider this....if you vote for me....why then I'll just hop right over to your gallery and vote for you too. That way we both can be in the top 100 every week. And to hell with talent and creativity and expertise....who needs any of that when you have lots and lots of friends who will vote for every piece of pathetic garbage that I post in my gallery. Just vote for me....so that I can be King of Crap!

LOL vangogh! Good for you! You make an excellent point.

This thread has been about ratings. How to rate, what to rate, ways to rate, etc. Maybe the solution is simply to ignore the ratings entirely. Maybe the point is that there is no point.

A good image is a a good image. It needs no rating. Ratings should not be validations for an artist.

Damn, if you like it, the hell with everybody else!

Make your art for you. Be selfish about your art. It's yours, your work. Please yourself first. Don't cater to the Madding crowd.

So let's just let the ratings go the way of the wind. Comment if you like the work, pass if you don't.

Keep in mind a good image will attract the more discerning adult viewers. The T&A kids would never glance at at your work. (unless of course you you've got T&A in your metaballs). :D

Maybe the idea of ratings is a just a pointless exercise, a way to gauge our popularity, an ego boost. Does anyone here really need to be 'best rated'? Is it that important to you? Does it make you a better artist?

Care about your art. Do the best you can. Learn from others. Appreciate and comment on the work of others. Try new things. Fail gracefully. Remember: "Life's tough; get a helmet."

And most of all, don't think about ratings: you are not a pack of sausage. Let the ratings go.

You know there's an old Zen saying: "The way to do is to be".

I'll try to create the same way.

End of deep Zen ;D

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

jesus.. that's cgtalk material..

Damnit! Busted. :D 

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

Hrm... No Ratings Zone

Sure, why not? Just go for the comments and see what happens. Can't hurt.

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

I must be like the Velvet Underground..;) no one really bought their albums, but everyone who did started a band..;)  getting a lot more comments, views tend up and down depending on how much woman I put in..;)

"I'm geared toward the average, rather than the Exceptional" - Jethro Tull, Thick as a Brick..;)*

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Your're showing your age Pakled, especially the Jon Anderson/Tull reference :)

"And I'm still thick as a brick." Cue the flute solo Jon.

Me too. Well at least I get the point. (still have the album too!)

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

Is that Jon Anderson from YES / Vangelis fame?

Unless your work is pro quality, how could you expect a rating of 5...or do people just give a 5 to anyone who is better than them, even if it's not that good? I rate on skill alone, that way, even if its a subject I don't like thier actual talent is still obvious and rate-able.

I eat babies.

Reply to D_A_M: Yep, same guy. Love his work. Still have all the original YES albums; the ones with the Roger Dean covers.

PS: D_A_M, like Pakled, you're showing you age! :D
Next you'll be talking about Emerson, Lake and Palmer!

Maybe the Bryce Forum motto should be: "Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends. Come inside, Come inside".

The rest of you punk kids get off my damn lawn! (Fark reference) :)

Sorry TwistedBolt went OT there for a moment. Be back tomorrow.

It's 11PM-1300 here in LA, time to hit the rack.

Later

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

Actually wasn't that Ian Anderson in Tull?

Pass no temptation lightly by, for one never knows when it may pass again!

i rate based on the cookies they give me...

Drac want a cookie?....I thought it was babies! I rate based on the intellectual stimulation I get....it's why I hardly ever give anything over a 1!

i only ask for babies when the work's orgasmic :D

I carfully balance between marketability, sales value, intellectual stimulation, emotional stimulation, spiritual stimulation, brand identity, artist personality, brand communication, product identity, color usage, composition, originality, artistic value, beauty, complexity, flaw-ratio, time, effort, technical skill, metaphorical content, coffee, matrix-inspired content, breastsize, nudity, realism, eroticism, software and hardware used, manhours, artist experience, brand experience, product experience, watermarks, watermark quality, post-work amount, post-work quality, post-work app used, mixed-media components, influence from other artworks, the quality of conceptualizing an idea, opinion or emotion into a festival of visual elements, the amount of sleep i had, the amount of alcohol i have in my blood, the mood i am in and the amount of cookie crums draculaz left behind.

(_/)
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(")(")This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

Rayraz....I think you have restricted yourself way too much....how can you make a balanced decision on such a narrow list of criteria....you have just got to learn to take more things into concideration!

Incarnadine: Yeah you're right, it was Ian Anderson. D'oh!

Het Drac, here in LA we eat babies too. 'Course they're 18 or over.

Well that lowered the level of this conversation.

I expect a blistering attack from the ladies of this Forum for that remark.

I am girding my loins. ;)

Boy, have we gone off topic with thisThread!

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

@Deadwarrior: We are discussing POSER and RATINGS. The tone of the thread could NOT be lowered any further. 

Poser quality with some spectacular exceptions is usually so low it has to look up to watch snakes pass. And Ratings are just a way of see how many people have been fooled into thinking this pile of rubbish is better than that pile of rubbish. 

Returning to our regular scheduled program, on the rare occasions I rate a picture it is always to give a 5. These images are the ones that stop me in my tracks, and say wow.  They may not be original ideas, or even perfect technically, but something about them just............

You know what I mean.

Sorry if I offended you Cyba_Storm. Please accept my apologies. I knew I'd catch hell with that remark. A brief moment of recto-crainial inversion.

You're absolutly right, I strayed off topic. Point is taken and I'll keep to the program.

You're right; some Poser work is spectacular, but you sure have to do a bit of searching to find it. And I mean a lot of searching.

I was browsing 3DCommune and I noticed more inovative art there than here at Rendo. And I mean in all galleries, not just Bryce. I get a bigger 'Wow Factor' there than I do here. Has anyone else noticed the same thing, or is it just my personal perception?

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

@deadwarrior: I wasn't having a shot and no offence taken.  I'm all for people eating people or just licking the chocolate syrup off. My point was once you start talking about POSER the thread can't fall much further. 

I hate Poser with a passion. Not the program as such, but its dumbing down of a complete generation of artists. These people don't even realise the PROPS they are using have taken artists, days or even weeks of modelling time to create, texture and rig. They're just props. 

My favorites is probably half Poser images. There are people out there that can make the program sing. Brilliant artists creating work as good as anything on the net or in the real world. 
BUT, they are the exception. Most will never do more than load props, poses, textures, outfits and sets, and sit back and bask in their equally as talentless friends praise. 

OKAY, now I'm off topic. Put it down to much blood in  my Booze stream.

Thanks Cyba_Storm, you summed my feeling about Poser art in general. And no, you're not off topic.

You're right about the use of props and models. It's rare, if ever, that the Poser 'artists' give credit to the true skilled artists and model makers that populate their redundant, derivative Barbie world.

I don't have the skill/expertise to make decent models. I use the talents of other, more skilled artisans much the same way a film director uses the prop department to provide scenery for his or her film.

But dammit, I always try to give credit to the other artist that contributed to the overall work. Even down to the texture mats.

If I don't know, or can't find their name(s), I comment and ask that the identify themselves so that they get the credit they deserve.

I'm not a one man show when it comes to most 3D art.

I know that if my work is rated (if at all), it's either the result of a  collaborative effort with artist credit given, or a solo effort on my part. (all my Terragen/Fractal/Povray/Moray work is mine)

Maybe that's the real trouble with the rating structure; most images posted are not the result of one individual artist, but the result of of a number of different talents and skills combined into a cohesive whole. It's a ratings flaw that needs to addressed.

Sad thing is that many artist don't want to acknowledge the contributions of others. One of the Top 100 is a known plagerist and thief. He got nailed big time in another Forum. Even down to the URL where he stole the image and claimed it as his own. And there he is in the Top 100.

So much for 'The Top 100' artists. Artists? Crap!

Side Note: I'm suprised that someone from the Poser Forum hasn't popped in to give their opinion.

But than again, maybe I shouldn't be.

As I've said before: Screw the ratings. Let's just make stuff we like.

And if you like it, chances are others will too.

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

Attached Link: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/member.php

Lacking any respoonse from a member of the poser forum, will I do?

I am a heretic, in the Brysters definition of the word, because I use poser, or should I say I use poser models in my images. Sometimes I even render in poser, although most often it is bryce I use. I also use Photoshop, sometimes for prework, sometimes for postwork, so I guess really a lot of my art is mixed medium.

I am as causitc as most when it comes to bad poser "art", and unfortunately far too often it is the bad poser stuff which dominates in the Rend galleries. I haven't been making many images just lately, but my latest was in the poser gallery. It may or may not be good, but it certainly doesn't look anything like the stuff you have all been running down.

There are some good poser artists around......you just need to find them amongst all the crap.

If I find time I will hunt down a few of my favourites and post links.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Thank you very much chohole. You're absolutly right; there are some terrific Poser artists out there. It just seems though that the big bad chunks float to the top ;).

Please post some of your favorites. I think we all need to see some good Poser art just to keep a fair perspective.

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

Human nature demands that public majority sentiment will sink to the lowest common denominator.
"Mob Rules"

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

I always found richardson's to be pretty decent poser work

Pass no temptation lightly by, for one never knows when it may pass again!

Attached Link: http://market.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1321766&member

Deadwarrior....I did say if I find time. A lot of the good poser artists no longer post at Rend, for some strange reason.

Nowever here is one that pulls off a good image every so often, but like me she needs postwork to pull it off.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

@ deadwarrior: Yah, the Roger Dean artworks are very nice. Great stuff over at his web site, especially under the topic Architecture. I'm only familiar with a few YES stuff... the most of Jon Anderson's work I'm familiar is what he does with Vangelis... I'm a Vangelis fan.

Jon Anderson = Yes, Vangelis (?)
Ian Anderson = Jethro Tull, 1 solo album (which dissapperated on me sometime in the past..;)
Mr. Anderson = 'My Name Is ' Neo...;)
Hans Christian Anderson= the 'Disneyfier' of fables and fairy tales (original versions are much more gruesome, and final, than your memory would surmise..;)

hope that clears things up..;)

I must confess, I occasionally make a mesh, then stick a pretty lady in front of it, or no one will look...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Gad! I have started the 'neverending thread'!

Jon and Ian Anderson=Yes
Vangelis=Yes
Emerson, Lake and Palmer=Yes (Remember the Gieger 'Alien' covers?).
Yes=Yes

Mr. Anderson='Bullet shot' Sorry, old trick in the FX community. Dennis Muren did it in his garage in 1969 with 30 Polaroid cameras. Looked pretty cool even in grainy black and white and 16mm.

Hans Christian Anderson:=Read the original stories. Everbody dies/gets eaten/stays dead. So there Uncle Walt!

chohole=Big thank you. I don't think post work counts. I (along with many, many others use it as a matter of course). Just part of the normal work flow IMHO.

Thanks for the heads up Pakled, next time I'll stick a pretty lady in the foreground in one of my renders. :)

Of course I'll be orginal: Just a have her wear a thong and swing a sword. Hmm...maybe in an ancient temple. With chains. And  a dragon. And a blank look. And a 'caution, contains nudity' tag.

Might work, never been done, gotta be orginal. :)

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

Either that, or make a thumbnail with parts of the girl's leg or face.. then remove her from the actual render.....  Ppl will be clicking to look and looking for that girl who isn't there.

LOL D_A_M!

The creative demon inside me is nagging to post that type of work!

If I do, this it might start a flame war between the Poser people and the Brycers.

I'll think I'll do it.

I'm still waiting for some 16 year old nOOb from Poser to discover this thread and than the Vigaro will hit the mixmaster!

Everbody better brush up on their l33t speak!

"Welcome back my friends to the show that never ends, Come Inside, Come Inside."

"Brain Salad Surgery"
Emerson, Lake and Palmer

Quote - Rayraz....I think you have restricted yourself way too much....how can you make a balanced decision on such a narrow list of criteria....you have just got to learn to take more things into concideration!

I'm only 22, i need more life experience to take on such a task!

(_/)
(='.'=)
(")(")This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

BTW Happy Birthday Ray! :)

@ deadwarrior: It might be fun.. "where in the render is vicky?" Just make sure it does not violate any TOS.

Quote - BTW Happy Birthday Ray! :)

OOPS! hahahaha my bday isnt untill the 22nd :D and im actually 21, typing 22 was a typo i didnt notice untill just now! hahaha wow whatta mix-up :-P

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(='.'=)
(")(")This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

SoRay, you are a Christmas baby as well?!

Pass no temptation lightly by, for one never knows when it may pass again!

Ok - Happy Birthday 2 weeks early then. :-D

nope.. as far as i know christmas isnt on september the 22nd :-P

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(='.'=)
(")(")This is Bunny. Copy and paste bunny into your signature to help him gain world domination.

Ah, but 9 months earlier.... (grin)

Pass no temptation lightly by, for one never knows when it may pass again!

Quote - Hi,I just found out how poor this system is.! I just checked the sea/undersea genre...
 Max made an excellent image..     http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1482684  
 ...with 32 ratings,yet this image,that should be in the top 100 ratings has been excluded because someone rated it less than 5.
 Seems to me that we are all loosing out when work of this callibre does not get to what I believe is a showcase for the best of Bryce for the the whole of Renderosity!
  Thanks for the image Max!
Cheers! Jed.

Jed, I just stumbled upon this thread by chance and I must say I was a bit surprised when I noticed the subject.  I am most honored that someone would go out of the way to notice and appreciate my work.  
Like you, I have also noticed that the exellent work of many artists get completely overshadowed by 'poser chicks' , a subject which I briefly mentioned sometime last year after I had a hard time finding top monthly/weekly Bryce images.  I still believe the old 'Hot 20' was better than what they have now.
Again, thank you for your kind words.
Max-

"An Example is worth Ten Thousand Words"

Quote - Ah, but 9 months earlier.... (grin)

oh gross thanx for THAT mental picture...

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I have thought for a long time that ratings were based on the following...

**1. Nudity

2. Friends
3. Decent piece of art
   **
   I tried a test once and called a picture Naked Winter. With an average of 60 views per image, I got 169 views on that one. 
   I'm thinking of pulling all my art from Renderosity unless the rating system changes. I post my art to get feedback in order to better my art. But if it doesn't work like that, I don't see the point.

Sorry if it sounds harsh, I really like everything else about Renderosity.

'"I tried a test once and called a picture Naked Winter. With an average of 60 views per image, I got 169 views on that one. "

LOL.

Maybe we should fight fire with fire and label all our images with one of the following titles:

naked
nude
naked nudeness
nude nakedness
nudotopia
nude and deadly
naked and angry

On a more serious note, perhaps they should split the galleries into two categories: 'nude art' and 'real art'. :)

"An Example is worth Ten Thousand Words"

Why does anyone even bother with ratings? What value do they have?

Pass no temptation lightly by, for one never knows when it may pass again!

@max, you forgot "nudity"

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Quote - Why does anyone even bother with ratings? What value do they have?

That's actually a deep and profound question that could be extended to other human endeavors like the need for humans to keep football scores, baseball scores, golf scores, soccer scores and Olympics scores. Unfortunately I don't have the answer yet.

"An Example is worth Ten Thousand Words"

Yeah, but how difficult is it to do nudity? The image "max" has done, is overlooked, and I can see the image took a lot of effort, skill.  

Quote - Yeah, but how difficult is it to do nudity?...

Prepackaged Toon Porn? easy as pie...
Photographically realistic nude human being? Different story altogether.
I personally feel it is not possible w/ current CG technology. If it is, I've never seen a still render of a human being that fooled for more than a minute; and that is in the best of the best category at the top high-end cg sites. And just a handful of those. Most take few seconds to tell it is CG. Really really good CG, but still CG.

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Prepackaged Toon Porn? easy as pie...
Photographically realistic nude human being? Different story altogether.
I personally feel it is not possible w/ current CG technology. If it is, I've never seen a still render of a human being that fooled for more than a minute; and that is in the best of the best category at the top high-end cg sites. And just a handful of those. Most take few seconds to tell it is CG. Really really good CG, but still CG.

Agree, although we know what it is, or all about. All the same in the gallery. Get the picture?  

No. I don't get the picture. Explain please :)
Do you mean the gallery here, or...?

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No. I don't get the picture. Explain please :)

Ah...your putting me on the spot....lmao!

*Do you mean the gallery here, or...?

Yeah. I was referring here, mostly. Although I been on other CG sites, they do not show much nudity or galour of female posing, as in here. Although, for example: http://www.cgsociety.org/ which I would think what I see there, would be same here, as I would like. But not so.  

Quote - > Quote - I've never seen a still render of a human being that fooled for more than a minute; .

 

This comes quite close don't you think... 
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=832490

I applaud renders like this, but I do think there are too many straight posed 'just for the sake of it' renders for gratuitous nudity. 

As for the rating system, each person has a choice for this included with comments, and I like to have them as they give me a high and inspiration to create. ... and whats wrong with that. :)
I would however like to see the rating out of 10 instead, or even a 100 as that could be more finely judged, and one could see how they are progressing or indeed how one might be rushing out a render for their daily fix LOL. :D

Quote - This comes quite close don't you think...

Actually, I was talking about the kind of renders that make you examine them for a while to distinguish them from real photographs.
Along these lines:
http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=132&t=532817
It was linked to in the Poser Forum here a while back.
The resolution of the images isn't in question. Obviously Mobius' is much higher resolution, clearer, sharper, etc. but...
Which one would be more likely to fool someone into thinking it's a real photograph?
I'd be curious to know what you think and also why, just to get some other perspectives and opinions on what actually constitutes "photorealism". Call it research. :)

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See your point, but that image is a real photo superimposed onto another image. The clue is in the weightiness of the body, something that 3D modelling/posing cannot achieve so easily.
It would be easy to photograph a real person, create a body texture map, and pose a poser model using the body textures. There is too much manipulation going on there. If it were a real render (which it isn't), it would still be a boring scene in my opinion.
One thing the creator failed to do was to integrate the model properly into the scene. The shadows on the floor would be very bad if it were a photorealistic render. LOL.

No it isn't a superimposed photo. It's not projection mapping either.
He has a video tutorial of the making of the image and provided scene asset files to prove it.

Quote - Originally posted this work back in January, I have now finally had time to finish it. No projection techniques used contrary to what people may think. All assets are available on my site and I can supply any wire frame/texture/mode/uv shots if requested.

If you scroll the thread, the wireframes are posted right there.
It is postworked, but that's normal.

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I took a look at it and i'm not convinced.

In this instance I do have to agree with Dhama. I am sorry I do not think this is true 3d.

Don't get me wrong, it's a great technique, but there is a lot of manipulation going on there.

BTW he might have links to vid tut's, but surprise, surprise I can't get them to work.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Maybe he took the .mov files down. Not everyone has infinite web space and bandwith.

It seems kind of weird to me that a person is expected to document their procedures and workflow in video to prove the worthiness of work.
Speaks volumes to me of the state of 3d graphics 'communities' on the internet.

It's the new "Is it art?" horse that hasn't quite been beaten to death yet.
"It's nice, but is it TRUE 3D?"
So... Postwork is no longer acceptable for True 3D, what else.
These are the ones I know of:

• Must be animation.
• Must follow 'accepted' guidelines (which, of course, vary from site to site).
• Must use "accepted" software (another site variance).
• Is there a hardware requirement?
• How about style? Content?

Besides, it is the "CG Society"; It isn't the "3D Society".
Or is 3D the only TRUE Computer Graphics now?

It reminds me of the way real-timers think of 'other, lesser' forms of 3D graphics. They don't even call their apps "real-time 3d apps", they just call them "real 3d apps". Other types of 3d apps (or work) are not real 3d.
Also reminds me of the sculptor down the road that says: None of 'that computer stuff' is TRUE art anyway?

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Hey I never said I don't think postwork is acceptable. I have been accused many times  of not being a purist (as well as being a heretic on the Brysters scale) because I almost always use postwork, whichever program I am using at the time.

 I just have my doubts about this image. I am not doubting that he has made a 3d image. However I feel that he has made the image in such a way as to allow him to then postwork a true photo over the top.

I would be perfectly happy to be proved wrong.

The greatest part of wisdom is learning to develop  the ineffable genius of extracting the "neither here nor there" out of any situation...."

Quote - ...I would be perfectly happy to be proved wrong.

I'm not trying to prove someone's work as valid. I guess if you really meant that, you would contact the artist; or the CGSociety (which cleared it to go on their front page).

I was just making the point that it isn't 'simple' or 'easy' to make an image, just because it involves a human figure.

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Errr... ok... usually i don't enter this type of discussions in quite as agitated a state as i do now but for anyone to say Infinite Realities' virtual humans are not true 3d just really sounds almost blasphemous to me.
Have you even really looked into the techniques used? the material provided? have you viewed the videos at infinite realities website?? theres wireframes of 3d models, theres open GL views, theres textures, theres the process shown of virtual models being compared to reference photographs, video footage of the process of hand-drawing texturemaps! Generating this kind of realism is not as simple as taking a photo of a human and slapping it on a 3d model! There's a serious art to carefully creating seperate diffuse textures, bump maps, specularity maps, and things like that. You can see the process of a bump map being drawn by hand right on the site! theres the .mov files showing the 3d room and the 3d model. This is as true 3d as true 3d gets!

The techniques used are native to many, many production pipelines throughout the 3d industry;

• Photographic reference? who cares! everyone uses it those at some point.
• Textures produced partially with the help of photographs? happens all over the place! do u want to call the shitload of poser renders 'not true 3d' because of their textures?
• Hand-drawn bumpmaps? normal, happens all over the place.
• Digital 3d model? noticed the 2nd word?
• Using digital lighting setups that match real photographs in order to look realistic? If thats not 3d then what do we call HDRI-lit renders in bryce 6?
• Using postwork to match color tones, adjust image, color, textures. Common to any efficient production pipeline.
• Using sculpting software like Zbrush? whats not 3d about it?

Did i miss any important "true 3d-destroying" techniques here?

Saying Infinite Realities' virtual humans are not true 3d is like taking some of the most brilliant surgeons in the world, giving them some of the most advanced medical tools, and letting them perform an amazing ground breaking medical science defying life-saving surgery. And then saying they're not true doctors because they used technology and/or skills not common to just your average hospital surgeon.

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Wait! ZBrush is 2.5d.
That means any displacment maps made using is isn't PURE 3d. :biggrin:

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Zbrush can do 2.5D, but its not exclusively 2.5D. The work shown on the site is clearly full 3D... thres a complete 360 degree model and the sculpting and texture drawing is done upon the 3d model. Zbrush 3D objects work with polygons just like any normal 3d object, you have wireframes (OT: you can even re-wire your Zbrush objects! isnt that hot??) The displacements are no 2d illusion of a 3d effect either, its full 3d displacement. U might want to update your definition of 2.5D ;-)

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Well, I would say that image is pretty well done and counts as 3d in my book ;)

On the other hand the artist at the top of the most favourited list when I looked earlier today has eight images of a lady with big lady lumps against poorly composited backgrounds..... (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=523378)

:b_confused:

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I was only joking Rayraz.
I was the one saying it was 3D in the first. The other guys are the skeptics.

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lol okay :-) guess we're allies then :-P

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Big tits are popular?:ohmy:
Who'd've thunk it?

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Lot of people that post to the gallery at this site are hobbyists and don't care if their work gets better or worse or stays the same. It's just fun for them. If they use Poser or D|S, naturally you would expect that the renders focus on humans, and are probably not 'Sistine Chapels" either.
Should they be banished?
Constantly ridiculed/slandered/embarrased w/ negative comments?
Rated as -4 on a scale from 1 to 5?

Real 'community spirit'. :tongue1:

Is friendly 'way to go man!!!" comments a bad thing for a community?
Is it so bad that somebody who isn't Rembrandt feels good about something they painted?
For 3d, should you be made to feel like dirt if you aren't at Stonemason's level?

I was a gilder for 11 years, spent lot of time around real art communities. They all have some very bad artists among them, ones that try and try but are never going to make it as even passably good artists. They aren't beaten into the ground, at all, by anybody. It's a community, people there care about each other. Slandering assholes are not allowed to remain in the art community.
Maybe the people posting negative non-constructive comments and rating pictures as poor are the ones that need to banned to make this like a real art community; that is interested only in seeing the overall talent level of members increased.

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On the other hand the artist at the top of the most favourited list when I looked earlier today has eight images of a lady with big lady lumps against poorly composited backgrounds..... (http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/browse.php?user_id=523378)

*Now I gotta speak up.  Out of curosity I went to link and looked at the art of  the most favorited shown above.  It is proof that of where the brains of the largest number of the viewers here are centered.  "And the winner.... (drum roll)  is the one who can post  a morph of the biggest boobs."  This is not Renderosity's fault.  They are only reporting the statistics.  I do fault Renderosity only that they have not recognized that the attempt to replace the "Top Twenty" only resulted in replacing placements from who had the most comments (read popularity contest) to another avenue that has nothing to do with skill or talent. 

I'm not jealous my name is not in any list.  I admit I am a hobbyist; but, I would like to see some sort of panel judged selection of the best in each gallery genre.  Maybe the powers at large need to read their own banner "Renderosity Art Community"

I will now step off the soap box.

Breasts as art?
Could be.
The human form can easily be argued to be the ultimate creation of an infinitely advanced being. The embodiment, so to speak, of an artistic expression that is beyond anything that mere humanity can ever hope to achieve.

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Since the very beginnings of human history, the human form has been an integral, possibly essential, component of human expression. The earliest cave scratchings have pictures of human beings. It is not just one culture either, it is a universal human trait.

Nudity is nothing new in art either; neither is the idea of an absolute perfection of form. In fact, many cultures viewed such as gods, or a way to represent divinity. A perfectly fashioned, ideal, female body, often represented fertility or motherhood or seasonal cycles.
Would anyone here care to make the claim that Michelangelo or Da Vinci weren't making 'real' art, because they often depicted nudity?
Should Renderosity hire guys to paint clothes on the nudes?
How about the great greek artisans? Lysippus, Pheidias, and so on.
Was Praxiletes a no good hack, because he sculpted Aphrodite naked?
Could someone make me an Athene Parthenos? I could actually use a fifty foot tall gold plated ivory statue, believe it or not.

Roman wall frescoes, Greek statuary & painting, Cretan tile mosaics, Egyptian engravings, Mesopotamian clay imprints, Neanderthal cave paintings, back as far as we know.

There are many books written regarding this topic. To casually dismiss what has been a major pre-occupation of humanity in general, and of art in specific, for at least 7,000 years as somehow inherently unartistic seems a bit absurd to me.

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I don't have a problem with nudity or boobs as art, especially when they're well done. A good sample would be RGUS who I reckon does some pretty good work, FB101 or mjr before he left :(

the point I was trying to make was that this artist was Favourited the most - so that's beyond someone saying -'Well Done'  or even 'Well done maybe next time you could try and get the babe and background to the same scale' - it's someone saying this guy is so good I want to go back and see more of his work. To me it implies that this isn't an art community  it's a badly rendered boob community (except the bryce, photgraphty and blender forums of course :) )

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The answer is go to real art community site then: find one that fits your (no one in particular) ideas about art and visit that site.
There is a big 3D world on the internet, Renderosity is just one little tiny part of the whole picture.

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Yes, what Gog said. 

It is not the nudity-as-art question at all.  It is more in line with what started this thread--an exceptional render by Max- gets overlooked and no recognition for pushing the status quo envelop.  It is about what does get the recognition and the applause.  If the badly morphed monster boobs get to be on top of a published list then Renderosity (this community at large) needs to recognize talent and skill also no matter the subject, nude human form included.  I stand by my comment that what showed up on the top of the list is a reflection of the viewers mind set of what is good.

In a way talent and skill are being recognized when somebody posts a badly rendered DAZ mil. figure. The talent and skill of the development team that spent thousands of hours making the figure.
No matter how little time somebody spends setting up a render w/ one of them in it, there is still a combined amount of time spent on the picture that dwarfs anything a single person is likely to ever put into any image, unless they plan on building a photoreal human from the ground up. Even something like one of my favorite images ever; Flak's "Siege" ( http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=322332 ). But if you ask Flak how many hours spent on it, it would not come close to equalling the amount of time DAZ spent to make V3 figure.
Does that mean that Flak's work is lessened or not recognized?
No, It is ranked 3rd on the all time highest rated list.
It means that people's eyes are smarter than you think they are. The eyes recognize the detail of the Mil. figure and the amount of time and effort it took to make it.

Now I'm unsubscribing from this thread, because it has degenerated to 'dead horse' status, IMO. I.e. "What is art?", "What is 'good' art?", and "Is using a labor division approach to CG valid art?"

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