Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

I've been testing C6P all weekend. It's 60% hype, and the rest is mostly wishful thinking.

Wait for 6.1. Shouldn't be more than a few years....

Quote - I've been testing C6P all weekend. It's 60% hype, and the rest is mostly wishful thinking.

In what ways? Seriously - I haven't gone near it (I still have v. 1.1 here), but was thinking ab't getting C6 (not the "Pro" version, because I can always stump for the upgrade later if it's all that). All I see is offhand opinion... anyone got specifics? Thx in advance, /P

Attached Link: http://www.newportnet.com/

> Quote - LOL! > > There were a lot of people abandoning Poser for Ds/ bryce a few years ago, and many of them are still using poser today. > > Same old same old.

shrug Perhaps, perhaps not. I still have P6 installed on the HDD from a long while back, but can only recall using it for one project @ Faeriewylde in the past 18-24 months or so. Looking at it nowadays, I've found no real desire to plonk down for P7. That said, notice that forum folk only account for less than (at most) ~1% of those who use Poser (don't believe me? peek at the list of member sessions on Rendo sometime - the vast majority inevitably belong to "Visitor" - and that's not counting the sheer number of folks who never even bother with Rendo, or CP, or...? ). N.B. Sorry if I'd been missed for the past week - honeymoons (esp. those located at the above link) tend to make a guy forgeful of such things as computers. ;) Anyrate - point is, while a forum (Poserforum to be specific) saved Poser from oblivion, it certainly isn't the end-all be-all of Poser's userbase (or D|S' userbase, or Bryce's userbase, or Carrara's userbase, or ...? ) /P

peng, we gonna hafta finish beta-testing it before we can say much. so far, one big problem (with regard to poser files) is importing pz3 files. between the alpha testers and the code monkeys, they obviously did alotta work, but they missed quite a bit as well. I'll say one thing - the morph sliders in carrara are easier to use than the poser dials IMVHO.

I have C6 Pro. It's pretty nice. There are some glitchy things about it but I like it just fine. I'm not a Poser user, I'm a Studio user and as I get more and more used to things in Carrara, since it's rendering engine is just like on drugs it's so fast, I may be able to switch eventually. I don't like that you can't select more than one texture surface or body part at a time so that reminds me a bit too much of why I don't care for the Poser interface all the much but I'm sure there is something I'm overlooking.

---Wolff On The Prowl---

My Store is HERE

My Freebies are HERE

RamWolf, what happened? You said you were going to wait. LOL.

I think they got what they wanted. Something released before it was ready so they can complain that Daz should have waited and fixed some of the obvious bugs. Par for the coarse, ain't it.

It was not only Poser. They keep saying Vue too. There are some on the forum that insisted that C6 was Gods/Daz gift to CG and there was no need for Poser or Vue anymore and some beleived all thier hype, even if it was all guess work. Funny how some were telling poser users that are having problems with the two apps as was promised, to quite using poser.

It's just another tool to help get the results you want and your the fool to believe it's the end all be all app. But the dynamic hair looks nice the way it can be interacted with motion.

Hey, just to chime in here. I think most of the people that say with C6Pro you don;t need Poser anymore haven;t really tried the program. I LIKE Carrara, have done all of my major modeling in it since version 3.0, but it won;t replace Poser on it own! However it's a great partner program with poser, and the new features have bumped that inter-usability up (IMHO) more than a little.

Like most major 3D packages, Carrara has it's own internal rigging system and morphing system. Now it has it's own dynamic hair. I hope to see dynamic cloth in the near future (someone will make a plug-in then in the next version it will come standard). As with other software these functions ARE NOT the same as Posers functions, however DAZ has gotten them to be fairly interchangable, much more than you find with software like Lightwave, or Studio Max, can;t speak for C4D as that seems to have a fairly reasonable ADD ON plug in to use Poser stuff.

If your an artist, you may or maynot find Carrara to be of use for you. You can directly import about 75-80% of Poser content directly into Carrara and operate it as you would in Poser (maybe not as easily, but then again Carrara ISN'T Poser). Carrara has a very hefty render engine, that is fast and produces some VERY good renders, but again it's not Poser so you';ll need to learn some of it's specific functions inorder to get the best out of it.

For content creators well, you can't rig poser figures directly in Carrara, but you can bring in a figure, model cloting for that figure, pose the figure and check the fits, and even "dial" in morphs for th figure and adjust the clothing to fit the morphed figure, all of this makes it a really nice package to create content in. I can;t think of any other package out there that lets you do all of thie to POSER content.

So the bottom line is if you're looking for a Poser REPLACEMENT that will use Poser content, than Carrara isn;t it, I doubt you'll find a 100% replacement. BUT if you're looking for a tool to work WITH Poser content then I can highly recommend Carrara 6. And who know, you may find that the system in Carrara itself can be used to make some really nice 100% Carrara content renders..

mike

How does Carrara 6 handle large scenes, I wonder..? I don't need the 'Ray Dream Supreme' modeler. I'm up to my eyebrows in modelers. (By the way, Modo 203 is about the best I've seen for intuitive tools that are easy to use.) The quick renderer sounds great; landscape creation would be useful--as long as it doesn't look like something from Bryce.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote - RamWolf, what happened? You said you were going to wait. LOL.

I think they got what they wanted. Something released before it was ready so they can complain that Daz should have waited and fixed some of the obvious bugs. Par for the coarse, ain't it.

It was not only Poser. They keep saying Vue too. There are some on the forum that insisted that C6 was Gods/Daz gift to CG and there was no need for Poser or Vue anymore and some beleived all thier hype, even if it was all guess work. Funny how some were telling poser users that are having problems with the two apps as was promised, to quite using poser.

It's just another tool to help get the results you want and your the fool to believe it's the end all be all app. But the dynamic hair looks nice the way it can be interacted with motion.

YA, I gave in... sorta.... I really was waiting for the comparison chart to see what I needed to see to decide. I figured that DAZ would come through with an update pretty quick for the stuff that was not working as expected for everyone so why pass up a great opportunity to get a med high end app that has all this extra stuff that WILL come in handy eventually. So here I am!!!

I think the only thing I'm really disapointed in so far is that the ADS dials for Apollo don't show up and so no scaling or anything like that for him. Too bad really but it's DAZ so..... it's fine!! Wouldn't expect them to all of a sudden bend over backwards to add support for a figure they wanted to buy at one point off of Anton.

Ho hum........

---Wolff On The Prowl---

My Store is HERE

My Freebies are HERE

Hey Ram, have you tried saving an ADS Posed Apollo figure to the runtime as a CR2 and loading the figure via C6's content tab? Just wondering if it loads them that way.

I'm into Lightwave, AutoCAD, and now starting with Modo. I've 'applied for' C6Pro, too.....

I have no plans to leave Poser.

Daz was a bit slow on the uptake with the comparison chart.

I'm waiting till the last couple of day of the sale before I upgrade. I liked my C5pro, had it from the start. But, I love my Vue6.5I. Find Poser the easiest to set my scenes up in first. Each have thier strong points.

I can't stand modeling in Carrara. I liked hex but 2.2 was a bust for me. That's why I went for the Modo deal, I have not regretted a single minute, Can't wait to get my hand on 301. Looks to be quite a few of us went the Modo way. LOL

BTW I am not knocking DAZ or Carrara6 Pro
that "situation" will workout or become old and forgotten.

Im just *"poking fun"*you might say, at those rebellious poser users
who claim they want to "leave poser" but take all or most of poser with them
to their savior app.
sort of like the teenager who hates living under his parents "restrictions"
but when he "moves out" he is horrified to learn that he will not only have to cook his own pancakes but will have to stir his own batter as well.

Ive observed this phenomenon for years and frankly have concluded
that anyone who truly wants to leave poser for another 3D Character app has done so.
the problem arises when on attaches ones heart to certain Functions features and attributes
of certain specific "character figures"

Such as The Ubiquitous "V"Chick
There is a person (whom's name I wont mention)
who has spent the last three years or so franticly seeking advice on
which high end application he should jump to to rid himself of the
oh so slow "firefly" renderer in poser.
but despite all the well documented testimony of users of those high end apps
despite the fact that these apps are largely responsible for some of the more extraordinary
CG seen in hollywood movies etc.

for this individual it always gets reduced to ***"can it (MAYA.Max ,XSI,LW et al )
bring over my beloved "V" chick with her dynamic
hair, morph dials and firefly/python based skin shaders for rendering her Nakkid closeups".

Then there are the dial turners who become shocked and mortified at the sight of any
character app that does not have "Dials" identical to poser .

"will my poser canned light sets transfer over
to (fill in the blank app_________ )"

This "concern" amazes me the most.
the primary reason IMHO that poser renderer is so weak/slow
is that its still tied to a very primitive lighting system.
but again instead of learning the superior lighting of the new application
some prefer to force it to use the ones from poser.

***"My certain sexy outfit for Bel Bel ( Yack!!) wont work in this other app due to its magnets
or pose handle etc." or Apollo's proprietary poser based "ADS scalers" wont function in
(fill in the blank app_________ )

Again one who is truly serious about "moving beyond" poser needs to accept that all these
"features" that are so hard wired to poser will NEVER completely export over to another application despite the gratuitous claims of those promoting this fantasy.

Well you can't blame people for wanting to try to move Poser figures into other apps, because frankly your options are terrible otherwise. If you're not trying to move Poser assets to your other app (whatever it is), you must immediately master - not just learn, ***master:
***- Modeling

Rigging
Texturing
Designing face morph targets

And then you must:

model a figure
rig it
texture it
design face morph targets

... before you can achieve what a typical Poser/D|S user can do within the first hour of using their app. That's a few thousand hours of study, practice and work.

For me, the problem is not "master this" or "keep this functionality." It's that I have thousands of dollars invested in useful objects, and thousands of hours invested in creating my own stuff, and thousands of shortcuts (such as all of Schlabber's free poses and piles of DM poses I purchased) that allow me to do my work -- which is not reinventing wheels -- efficiently. The reason I'm fed up with Poser is that it wastes my time. It doesn't work any more.

I won't give it up until I find a way to continue to do what I use it for, but I will give it up the instant I find that alternative. That's the kind of customer loyalty companies like Microsoft, e-Frontier, and DAZ deserve, by the way. The kind they've given us for years.

M

The way I look at, a hammer can't do a job that a screwdriver is designed for. As much as I dislike Poser's limitations it's still useful from time to time. I needed just a humanoid shadow for a recent project and whiz bang I got the results I was looking for quickly. Would I try to do animation production in Poser? Prolly not. I agree that Poser's lights are primitive, though I'm not sure that's what makes it so slow. Though mileage varies, I get relatively speedy renders out of Firefly.

Quote - I hear they are taking pre-orders for the latest "poser killer"

get them credit cards ready

Does it run on Linux? Hehehehe... :biggrin:

My brain is just a toy box filled with weird things

One of the major reasons why I don't intend to leave Poser:

My highend interest is in inorganic or hard surface modeling. Not in soft-body character creation. I am far more interested in arch viz, modeling machinery, and vehicles. But should I need to populate a scene with a human or two -- then Poser is just the ticket for accomplishing that task quickly & easily. Without spending copious hours designing my own humans. Or spending copious amounts of money buying pre-modeled human figures at TS or elsewhere.

The software itself is expensive enough already. Pre-made highend content is way too costly: especially for items which might be single-use. Spend $350 on a figure that I'm only going to use in one scene -- ever? I don't think so.......................

It's possible that I'll pick up organic modeling more-or-less by osmosis as I get into the higher end stuff. But organic will probably never be my primary focus.

Quote - Well you can't blame people for wanting to try to move Poser figures into other apps, because frankly your options are terrible otherwise.

...don't forget the money. A typical user has invested hundreds, if not thousands of bucks, into their digital Barbie Doll sets - me included. Now me, I have managed to shift my investment into use with D|S and such (mostly by avoiding Poser-only features, such as dynamic stuff). I see the same arguments in the whole Linux vs. Windows arguments... folks have a ton of apps that they have accumulated data and money in, that only work in Windows. Thanks to WINE, Crossover Office, etc etc, most of that has been resolved. Apple has managed to somewhat overcome the same obstacles with Parallels. OTOH, Things get obsolete. Posette ain't the main gig anymore. Neither is V1 or V2. Over time, things will change. (as for transferring lighting? LOL! man... even my ancient copy of Carrara 1.1 has lighting --not counting IBL-- that kicks the sh!t out of Poser's... /P

Even starting from scratch, imo there's no good commercial alternative to the typical Poser figure when working with one of the bigger apps. The stuff on TurboSquid, even discounting the heavy price premium, is all one-of-a-kind and in most cases is not rigged. I think the best case is Masha, and even that figure only has 10 face morph targets for expression. If someone knows of any alternative to building a figure from scratch I'm interested to hear it (although I'm pretty happy now with interPoser Pro + Cinema 4D).

If we could get Poser's basic functionality combined with C6Pro's renderer together in one program -- I'd be pleased with that. As well as with the built-in ability to 'talk' to highend apps, of course.

Poser Pro? (question mark).

Some might claim that's impossible. But I discarded that word awhile back.

Quote - Even starting from scratch, imo there's no good commercial alternative to the typical Poser figure when working with one of the bigger apps.

Agreed - even most professionals (at least the ones around the CG slave pits I know of) will squitch in a Poser figure here and there for quick but high-end-looking installations. (but then, most have already pre-rigged 'em themselves into 3DS Max, Maya, etc - clothing/morphing a figure in Poser or D|S, then exporting the whole shebang and adding the pre-built skeleton to it). > Quote - Does it run on Linux?

The first competent version to do it will get my money and even help/efforts towards improvements... and I don't particularly care if EF, DAZ, or whomever is the one to do it. You see, I've already got AC3D for modeling on my install of Fedora Core 7, Blender for the really heavy stuff, and a whole wad of programming toys and tools to customize whatever else I need to tack on. My Mac is still running strong. That said, I'm slowly feeling the itch to upgrade and I decided not to shell out $2500+ on a new one (esp. if I can shell out only 1/3 of that on a homebuild box and plonk in Ubuntu or Fedora Core instead). I know there's OSX x86 out there, and folks have easily gotten OSX to run on non-apple hardware, but IMHO that involves more effort and time than I'm willing to push out nowadays - time/work that can be spent on things like artwork. And no... we ain't doing Windows if we can avoid it. The various treadmills there (A/V, DLL Hell, bloat, anti-spyware, etc) are too much of a drain to a guy who is more comfortable at a bash or ksh prompt than in some resource-sucking "Aero" GUI. /P

I am barely a Poser user. I don't like it very much but if it does the job then I will not discard it from my harddrive.... On the otherhand I feel the Poser-verse has outgrown Poser, if there is an alternative, vive la alternative!

This test render is all done in Carrara6 after 1 day figuring out the dynamic hair and "poser-content" functionality. Rumors of its failed launch are greatly exagerated.

wetcircuit.com
credits: Vicki3, GND2, Vali's Fyrhe(?sp), 2035Girl, More for 2035, 3Dream's painted skullcaps, Carrara6, Dosch HDRI (background, not lighting), HowartH poses, free Rogue goggles, etc etc etc

Poser wasn't used at any stage to create this image -- other than the vast legacy of Poser content that makes us so happy. All hail Poser!

good to hear! I'll be sniffing about for a few days, then I'll prolly plonk for it if the reviews I see are good (esp. when visible results are posted :) ). BTW: Are you using Mac or Windows?

Quote -

Like most major 3D packages, Carrara has it's own internal rigging system and morphing system. Now it has it's own dynamic hair. I hope to see dynamic cloth in the near future (someone will make a plug-in then in the next version it will come standard). As with other software these functions ARE NOT the same as Posers functions, however DAZ has gotten them to be fairly interchangable, much more than you find with software like Lightwave, or Studio Max, can;t speak for C4D as that seems to have a fairly reasonable ADD ON plug in to use Poser stuff.

Dynamic cloth was planned to be in version 6 but was delayed. It will be made available as a set of plug-ins for Carrara and Studio. There will be a free verson which will allow you to load and use premade cloth objects. There will be a fairly cheap version of the plug-in which will alow limited modification of existing cloth objects, and finally a higher priced developer plug-in to allow full cloth object creation. I think coordinating the plug-in development between Carrara and Studio, to keep the content compatible between them, was a factor in the delay, but I may be wrong.

"If we could get Poser's basic functionality combined with C6Pro's renderer together in one program -- I'd be pleased with that. As well as with the built-in ability to 'talk' to highend apps, of course."

That exists already C4D +interposer pro and this month V-ray

***Poser Pro? (question mark).
Some might claim that's impossible. But I discarded that word awhile back.

No sir not "impossible" Just " undesirable" from a workflow stand point
when one is "hosting" a scene
for rendering only
as will be the case with "Poser Pro" according the EF reps a SIggraph

Quote - If we could get Poser's basic functionality combined with C6Pro's renderer together in one program -- I'd be pleased with that. As well as with the built-in ability to 'talk' to highend apps, of course.

Poser Pro? (question mark).

I think you should give C6 a look. I've been seeing good C6 renders in the forums over there already. Some people just aren't having the problems others are making the huge fuss over. Yes, certain figures do not work yet with C6. These figures are being reported in hopes that the cause can be found. Yes, Poser 7 scenes can cause problems. This has been tracked to a change in lights between P6 and P7, and some users have managed to get their scenes in after running a delete light script in Poser and resaving. Other problems have had to do with broken texture references, unusually long, strangely named or nested runtimes, which shouldn't be too shocking given the problems Poser has had itself with these things.

The most encouraging words came from a beta tester who basically said that most of the problems people are having getting Poser content into Carrara will be forgotten once they start actually using Carrara. People are getting their content in and there are renders to prove this. The tricks and workarounds will become common practise in time, but it's not surprising that so much is being made of Carrara's shortcomings when so many people are initially using it at the same time and most all of them are trying to attempt the same problematic things.

I'll be installing it soon, so let's hope I'm not being overly optimistic.

The only problem with work arounds are that companies don't feel they need to fix something if they can get enough users to except it and defend the initial problem with said work around.

Quote - I think you should give C6 a look.

I am supposed to be getting a link to download C6Pro sometime in the next several days. It's already paid for -- but some of us are having to wait on it.

I'm certain that just like with most things, the reality of C6Pro will be discovered somewhere in the middle. C6Pro won't "kill" Poser, but neither will it be the bust that some who are currently having trouble with the app are claiming. No doubt, in some cases it's a simple matter of user issues being misinterpreted as software bugs -- while others are running into the type of oddball problems that will inevitably crop up whenever a brand new piece of software gets installed onto many, many different PC's with many, many different types of hardware configurations. It would be impossible for DAZ or for anybody to account for them all -- and that's a legitimate use of the word 'impossible'.

But that won't stop people from being upset when the new software crashes on their PC, while others are sailing on placid, silver waters & creating beautiful pictures.

It's a metaphor for life.

I think that C6Pro will work out to be a fine mid-range program. I'm thinking that Poser Pro will be, too.

Quote - BTW: Are you using Mac or Windows?

MacBook Intel 2G dual core.

...and the only thought that went through the bowl of Petunias was 'oh no, not again'"...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Quote - > Quote - BTW: Are you using Mac or Windows?

MacBook Intel 2G dual core.

The word "Mac" is good enough for me (dual G5 here) - I don't think the Intel v. PPC thing will make that much diff. It's kind of a very nice benefit from owning a Mac... if it works on one, it's liable to work on 99.999% of the rest of 'em. :) -- > Quote - The only problem with work arounds are that companies don't feel they need to fix something if they can get enough users to except it and defend the initial problem with said work around.

Dunno... a lot of resistance that I find in the professional world (at least computers and networking-wise) has to do with defending all that initial investment in the now-inefficient way of doing something. Either the previous solution was overpriced, too unique and proprietary to have any alternatives, or simply was purchased/implemented in ignorance... or the environment has changed enough to make the existing process/solution cumbersome. It's always a bit costly at first to change solutions, mostly spent in time and effort at figuring out the new way of doing it. OTOH, once you're there, and your workflow and prduction is geared towards the newer methods, then the old is seen for what it is. As per Carrara v. Poser, I dunno yet - I'd have to use C6 first to tell for certain. OTOH, I already know the deficiencies within Poser, D|S (by itself) and other apps. If C6 solves a large chunk of those without too much of a learning curve, and while using most of my existing files, then cool - I'll flip right to it without ever looking back (I'm practically there now; I use Vue more often than I use Poser nowadays). /P

I was refering to work arounds for known bugs. Not for user error. We all know that different apps do the same thing as others, just differently and the user need to learn how to do it the proper way for said app. That is not a work around though, is it.

An example would be Hex 2.2 changing the order of verts and having to use a work around to fix the problem in order to use it. There are quite a few users that like to shout you down and tell you that there is no need to fix it because of the workaround. Companies can use that as an excuse to not fix the bug. Or they will but charge you for it. Hex 3.

I'm not saying that Daz won't fix it, I used it as an example to get the proper meaning of my last post.

I'm real glad I'm waiting for the last day of the sale before I buy. Some of the issues should be addressed as to what is going on by then, plus I may not have to wait days after buying to DL.

I dont use anything else for rendering but Poser. No other program makes Poser file extensions except Poser. There's no way to get rid of Poser, those other programs dont rig & save Poser files.

Lets see C6Pro...hmm.
Will not import anything you make in XDresser. You need a work around
Will not import anything if the word runtime is anywhere in you directory path other then the real runtime as in "myruntimes/People/V4/runtime"
Lack of support and or countless problems inporting pz3's created in poser 7
Expectation that Transposer 2 would come with p6, because transposer came with C5.
If you choose a large scene items come in different scales.
Dual monitors was broke in C5 Mac, still broke in C6Pro Mac (no work around)
You can't pose eyes for V3 (not sure about other characters) in C6Pro.
Many newer products-character sets use shaders. They are lost during import and you have to recreate them yourself. Some people bought certain items because they came with shaders and are disappointed that they might have wasted money on that purchase.
yadda, yadda, yadda...

Where Daz screwed up was they didn't test it correctly or didn't have enough beta testers. Plus there major mistake in my mind was they built this thing up in their pre-release publicity with their sneak peaks, uTube videos, etc to the point of mad frenzy....user expectations were higher then a kite. When the kite, fell and hit the ground, those same users are using the same mentality of a mad frenzy....Over expectations created by Daz, is coming back to bite them. In hindsight, they probably would have been better off with a soft launch. Sort things out, then make a bunch of noise.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Quote - I was refering to work arounds for known bugs. Not for user error.

The sad part is, in many cases so am I. Take for instance the Firefly rendering engine... most folks are stuck with using it, because (as quoted directly): "I dont use anything else for rendering but Poser. No other program makes Poser file extensions except Poser" ...which on the surface is true. For a simple workflow, most folks aren't going to want to sit there and export to .obj, or use another program's import functions (which can read .cr2 and other Poser-specific files), etc. Exporting/importing is in reality a workaround to avoid the limitations and yes, bugs in Firefly. It is also a workaround to avoid the limitations in Poser itself (atmospherics, terrains, lighting, etc). > Quote - An example would be Hex 2.2 changing the order of verts and having to use a work around to fix the problem in order to use it. There are quite a few users that like to shout you down and tell you that there is no need to fix it because of the workaround. Companies can use that as an excuse to not fix the bug. Or they will but charge you for it. Hex 3.

Exactly. > Quote - I'm real glad I'm waiting for the last day of the sale before I buy. Some of the issues should be addressed as to what is going on by then, plus I may not have to wait days after buying to DL.

I figure I'd hang out and see how it turns out. I learned the hard way about being an early adopter in 3D stuff by way of Poser 5. /P

Quote - Lets see C6Pro...hmm.
Will not import anything you make in XDresser. You need a work around
Will not import anything if the word runtime is anywhere in you directory path other then the real runtime as in "myruntimes/People/V4/runtime"
Lack of support and or countless problems inporting pz3's created in poser 7
Expectation that Transposer 2 would come with p6, because transposer came with C5.
If you choose a large scene items come in different scales.
Dual monitors was broke in C5 Mac, still broke in C6Pro Mac (no work around)
You can't pose eyes for V3 (not sure about other characters) in C6Pro.
Many newer products-character sets use shaders. They are lost during import and you have to recreate them yourself. Some people bought certain items because they came with shaders and are disappointed that they might have wasted money on that purchase.
yadda, yadda, yadda...

Hrm. All but one of those can be rectified on my part by using D|S to import previous Poser-only files. Then again, the vast majority of stuff that I use is D|S only nowadays. When you say you cannot pose eyes, in which way do you refer - specific dials, .pz2 files, ...? Dunno about the multiple monitors thing - then again, in what way is that broken? You cannot span the main window, or you cannot have the tools on one monitor and the main window in another? Transposer2 should come with C6Pro (but not C6) - same as C5/Pro, no? /P

About the eye posing problem.
In my case, I import v4.1 directly from the browser tray, and when I turn facial morph, say "eye width" morph for example, eye sockets would move but eyeballs won't follow the movement. They stay at the default position. Very sick looking.
Of course, there's workaround, but it should be fixed.
After all, v4.1 is DAZ's flagship model and the C6pro their flagship app.
There are many small problems like that in c6pro, but I like this app in general.

Hrm. All but one of those can be rectified on my part by using D|S to import previous Poser-only files. Then again, the vast majority of stuff that I use is D|S only nowadays. When you say you cannot pose eyes, in which way do you refer - specific dials, .pz2 files, ...? Dunno about the multiple monitors thing - then again, in what way is that broken? You cannot span the main window, or you cannot have the tools on one monitor and the main window in another? Transposer2 should come with C6Pro (but not C6) - same as C5/Pro, no? /P

have you gone to the daz store? it's c6 pro that's out. i don't even know if c6 standard is available yet. checking.... if it is, i don't see it.

Quote - Hrm. All but one of those can be rectified on my part by using D|S to import previous Poser-only files. Then again, the vast majority of stuff that I use is D|S only nowadays. When you say you cannot pose eyes, in which way do you refer - specific dials, .pz2 files, ...? Dunno about the multiple monitors thing - then again, in what way is that broken? You cannot span the main window, or you cannot have the tools on one monitor and the main window in another? Transposer2 should come with C6Pro (but not C6) - same as C5/Pro, no? /P

Well I use P7 mostly. Don't own anything earlier (P6, P5, etc.) Messed round with D/S for a bit and didn't care for the interface. The eyes issue is replied to by someone else and also mentioned in the Carrara forum here and confirmed by several users in that same forum. The dual monitor support for Mac's I find out after the fact never worked in C5, and it doesn't work in C6P. You put it in multi monitor mode or use several of the suggested methods of change a setting restart, change another setting restart...when in multi monitor mode none of the pallets function and most likey the program locks up. You can either use a pull down menu at the top and kill the multi monitor process or in several attempts I tried that failed, delete the preference file and start over from square 1 because it was locked up at the splash screen. You think if this was an issue in C5 that wasn't fixed or changed for C6, they would have made mention of it under the system requirements...but they didn't do that. One has to assume if this was a repeatedly reported problem in C5, Mac version they would have fixed it in C6...but they didn't do that. Plus they left the options in place that don't work in C6. Sloppy programming. No transposer is not included in any version of C6. There are comments on the Daz fourms about it costing an additional $100.00. Yet when you read the feature set for C6, on the Daz website it states full support for PZ3's, with no disclaimer that this only covers P6 files, not P7 files. Seems kind of odd to me, when you see content sold on the Daz site that is clearly marked only supports D/S or D/S and the following versions of Poser, or just these versions of Poser..why they didn't do the same and state clearly which versions of pz3's where supported and which were not. I seriously doubt anyone can dispute that DAZ didn't know full well in advance that P7 files were not supported and for reasons only known by Daz management chose to keep their mouths shut. The result causing them customer ill will.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

Quote - An example would be Hex 2.2 changing the order of verts and having to use a work around to fix the problem in order to use it. There are quite a few users that like to shout you down and tell you that there is no need to fix it because of the workaround. Companies can use that as an excuse to not fix the bug. Or they will but charge you for it. Hex 3.

I can tell you one thing, I'm in charge of evaluationg an acquiring production applications we use here at the office... From Autocad to 3D studio to dozens other smaller caliber ap's.
One thing that I definately don't do is buy upgrades the minute they come out. Usually wait 6 months or longer, or even skip a version if needed, to avoind major calamities of buggy releases that seem to be the latest fashion in yearly software releases.

In last 20 years, I haven't seen that much of an improvement from one release to the next to make it worth risk the bugs that can take your production down.

A bug in a software for an individual hobby user can be a major annoyance. For a company employing 20-30 people working on this software, a bug that takes you out of production for an hour or two a day gets to be extremely expensive. It's not investing in new software that costs a lot, it;s the loss of contracts that weren't happy with your product due to 'buggy new software' that can cost you 100's of times the cost of software.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

The only good thing about hex2.2 was, i didn't have to pay for it. I had to go back to 2.1, which works. All does not matter anymore as I have replaced it with Modo. I don't have as much faith with Daz products as I used to.

I can load Miki 2 from her personal Poser runtime (i.e. not from Poser 7 Central) into C6 and she appears. She renders nicely, too, I have to say, but I think that she possibly has the same eyeball problem as I have seen mentioned for V3. I think there are other dead areas, too. The "fist" morph for the hands seems to work, but "grasp" and "Spread" don't; nor do any of the finger-specific morphs, as far as I can see.

I can't claim to be mad about the modelling capabilities in Carrara. Is it any advance on the P7 Morph Brush? DAZ seems to be going overboard about modelling software, at present, what with selling ZBrush and Modo, alongside its own Hexagon . Carrara 6 doesn't remotely threaten any of those (unless I am missing something in a very big way - admittedly, that wouldn't be a first), but Modo clearly has Hexagon in its sights, even if ZBrush remains unique. Does that mean that DAZ has Luxology in its sights?

" but Modo clearly has Hexagon in its sights, even if ZBrush remains unique. Does that mean that DAZ has Luxology in its sights"

Not even close. Hex is nothing compared to Modo. I can't see a product like Modo dummy down to have Hex in it's sites. I really doubt that Daz is looking to Luxology. It was a good deal for both companies to make some extra money and for Lux to expand to more users. Would you say Daz has thier eyes on Zbrush because of the same deal or Right Hemisphere or even Lightwave? No. They have enough to worry about with what they have now.

ZBrush and Modo would be closer but as I have only tried a Zbrush demo, I can't give an honest opinion on which is the stronger software. I would say Modo for shear power and addaptive ui with what ever combined tools you want to create. But, I don't like how Zbrush was set up so it did not fit me like modo can. So My opinion would not be the same as someone that likes using ZBrush.

Yes, anything that has some modeling tools would be better than P7 brush. Who knows, Maybe Poser will get some added modeling tools in the future. Not to far fetched whenyou think about it.

Quote - Yes, anything that has some modeling tools would be better than P7 brush. Who knows, Maybe Poser will get some added modeling tools in the future. Not to far fetched whenyou think about it.

One has to assume the CP engineers, marketing and management are watching closely. It will be interesting to see how all these recent developments effect the upcoming poser pro announced about a month or so ago. The next 6 months to a year should be interesting to say the least. Who will be the winners and who will be the losers. IE gain and loose market share.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

confirming the miki2 functioning in c6pro. I was trying to get it to look more like a chimp in c6pro, and "grasp" did nothing. limb-scaling works better than it does in P7 IMVHO. tried to do the hair simulation on the chimp-girl, but it's gonna require RTFM. it worked o.k. for some straight wookie-style hair, but it crashed when I tried for some shorter, less stiff hair. other models, e.g. v4.1, allow eyeball rotation. saving model as object in object browser causes it to lose the pose AFAICT.

cobaltdream said: *have you gone to the daz store? it's c6 pro that's out. i don't even know if c6 standard is available yet. checking.... if it is, i don't see it.

*not ten minutes after i read through this entire thread..... what shows up in my inbox, but an anouncement from daz saying they just released C6 standard.

i'll wait.... unless someone wants to buy it for me for a birthday pressie on saturday? chuckles - thought not.

seriousely though, folks... no program is gonna be exactly the same as another. that's the beauty and heartache of it all. much as i'd LOVE application A to do this because Application B has that feature - it's not gonna show up. i'd LOVE say, bryce, to act more like poser - but it doesnt. it's bryce. i'd LOVE poser to render like bryce. alas, it doesn't. instead, i'm teaching myself how to import into bryce (don't get me started on THAT headache).

it does little good to whine & moan about buggy software that's just been released. while i agree they should wait until at least 90% of them are worked out, in this world where a hint becomes a rumor becomes a fact becomes an I WANT IT NOW - they speed things up, to the detriment of quality. In essence, if you buy software within the first year of its release - expect the bugs - you get to play guinea pig.

also, even the best beta testers can't find ALL the issues. and i imagine the programmers had a hard time keeping up with the comments from the beta tester peanut gallery.

sometimes, it takes someone with no experience at all (in a program or otherwise) to "break" something.

my .02 worth - and enjoy carrera, folks.... me, i'm sticking with poser - it was the first 3D program i managed to wrap my poor little mind around.

Rarer than a hairy egg and madder than a box of frogs....

< o > < o >    You've been VUED!    < o > < o >
         >                                                     >
         O                                                    O

A sidenote: I've gotten my C6Pro links. Downloading now. But I won't have the time to install it until sometime tomorrow night, at the earliest.

The Fab 5 apps.

C4D,Max,Maya,XSI,Lightwave

All can do every thing Poser does better, thay have for years.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

*melikia: it does little good to whine & moan about buggy software that's just been released. while i agree they should wait until at least 90% of them are worked out, in this world where a hint becomes a rumor becomes a fact becomes an I WANT IT NOW - they speed things up, to the detriment of quality. In essence, if you buy software within the first year of its release - expect the bugs - you get to play guinea pig.

*You're right, of course. The only trouble is that one year from now Carrara 7 will be hitting the streets, possibly with the C6 bugs addressed, but with a phalanx of new defects all its own, no doubt. And the "I WANT IT NOW" mentality is very largely engineered by the software's vendors (talking generally here, not just about DAZ).

beryld, ZBrush is nothing like either Modo or Hexagon (oh, well, they updated the ZBrush software without updating the product documentation, so ZBrush does have that in common with Hexagon).

I still think anyone using C6 for modelling will need to be pretty desperate. Poor old Miki 2 in the C6 Model page looks as if she has just escaped from a nightmare acupuncture session, jointly administered by Sweeney Todd and Jack the Ripper.

The Fab 5 apps.

C4D,Max,Maya,XSI,Lightwave

*All can do every thing Poser does better, thay have for years.

*And you can probably get Poser, Vue and a modelling application (even if it isn't Wings or Blender) for the price of any one of them.

Quote - The Fab 5 apps.

C4D,Max,Maya,XSI,Lightwave

*All can do every thing Poser does better, thay have for years.

*And you can probably get Poser, Vue and a modelling application (even if it isn't Wings or Blender) for the price of any one of them.

Just saying if a app has hair, cloth ,rigs, morphs then it will do what Poser does.
$$$, the more ya spend the better tools ya get.
The Fab 5's is worth the price you pay.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

If you value your time, even as a hobbyist, then it may be worth the price to go to a "big app" if you can get away from the enormous waste of time it can be to try to integrate Poser, a higher-quality renderer, dynamic cloth, hair, modeling, texturing in 3d, yadda yadda (it has been for me). It's pretty nice to have nearly-everything in one app instead of five different ones, for the single-person art department.

"beryld, ZBrush is nothing like either Modo or Hexagon (oh, well, they updated the ZBrush software without updating the product documentation, so ZBrush does have that in common with Hexagon)."

I don't know. I've read other merchant/users that have both Zbrush and Modo and say they are simular. More so when Modo 301 comes out. not in UI but as in many features. In UI, I thought Zbrush sucked the big one, right along with Truespace. LOL Guess we'll know in a few weeks or less.

I never said or even would have thought that Zbrush was anything like Hex. I may be crazy, but I'm not stupid.

Does lightwave have hair?

"If you value your time, even as a hobbyist, then it may be worth the price to go to a "big app" if you can get away from the enormous waste of time it can be to try to integrate Poser, a higher-quality renderer, dynamic cloth, hair, modeling, texturing in 3d, yadda yadda (it has been for me)."

Agreed which is essentially my point with the comic strip
there is NOTHING wrong with wanting to use poser figures in other apps.
the problem is that too many want their personal exotic program and character
"feature" of poser shoe horned into these other apps that were not designed
to implement POSER'S version of these "features"

and if those heartlocked features dont quite come over to the big app
the whole effort is considered a failure or a big lie on the part of the company
claiming to support poser content in their other app.

and if I may be even more Frank about it
the prevailing standard that many user seem to be using to determine
wether Such &such program truly support poser format is
undeniably the **DAZ bloatware abombination/bug that I refer to as
ubiquitous "V"CHICK!! 4.(whatever)
**
One can only wonder what percentage the posts complaining about the new Carrara 6 pro
are about: M3,The G2 Male Figs, P7 Sydney,Apollo Max V2,V3 etc Hiro David,M2
Stonemasons awesome sci fi Sets etc..

I would guess Not many.

But if "V "Chick Dont work right in this equation, work its a wash, a failure, a rip off.

***"V chick s butt is crumpled" "V"Chicks eyes wont move" "V" chicks skin shaders didnt come over"
***

I remember once someone complained to Kuryome (sp?),the maker of interposer pro,
that there was a "bug" in his plugin when using V4.

Kuryome replied rather frankly yes**" V4 IS the BUG".**

I remember my early days of exporting posette and dork as Obj files and
manually applying textures in bryce 2 to render in "another app"

today we have MANY reasonable options to get poser figs into other apps to render
(DAZ Coladda/fbx,interposer, carrara pro, VUE even the $90 low cost vue easel 6 imports complete poser animation now.)

with all these options its truly a shame that Some user are allowing themselves to be limited
and held hostage in poser by one over hyped idolized figure.

cheers

"VChick bug": Whatever. I haven't installed V4. My initial tests were with the MilDog, V3, Traveler's belly dance costume on Steph Petite, and the Heavy Horse. All of them had problems, some of which I've traced down, some of which (crumples in the HH mesh, caused by screwy assumptions about constraints I think) were total show stoppers.

My complaint is with the hype, not the functionality. And I'm truly tired of hearing the word "hype" used (even by me any more) as if it were a synonym for "lies." I suppose I'm one of the few not surprised by the lies. Welcome to the club, if you are just visiting.

Conceding the pretty special problems addressed here, such has having to give up eyesocket morphs that carry the eyeball along and hand morphs that control the dozen+ elements of the fingers (in Miki, not just the divine Ms V), I'm Ok with having to make some compromises to get the additional value in C5P. It was faster than P5, had vastly better lighting, offered better handling of cameras and shaders, and held its own when P6 came out. I could bring a finished PZ3 in and an hour later be zipping through refinement renders that took minutes rather than hours. Worth every penny, and if that's all you are looking for, and you don't need P7 support, find C5P on EBay.

I am not Ok with being misled about C6P handling PZ3 files transparently. Frankly, it doesn't handle them at all, as far as I'm concerned, and I'm not going to pay $100 for a plug-in that DAZ marketers claim with solve the problem (Fool me once, FU). Without TransPoser, importing PZ3 files means spending almost as long fixing them as it took to create them.

I am not Ok with being told that I was getting support for dynamic hair and cloth, only to learn that it's support for THEIR dynamic hair, and "Oh, heck's sake, did someone say 'cloth'? We didn't mean, you know, freakin' 'CLOTH'? But you just wait! We'll get you some and it will be just perfect!! That's a personal promise!"
I'm not Ok with failing to mention that the single thing that prevents me from using C5P with Poser, incompatibility with P7, would be retained in C6P in spite of breathless BS about full Poser support.

Back to my Blender tutorials.
M

Quote - "V chick s butt is crumpled" "V"Chicks eyes wont move" "V" chicks skin shaders didnt come over"

***Well, considering the common big problem is not so much Victoria 4 as proper handling of ERC channels, as it partly was in Kuroyume's case (now fixed pretty nicely btw) and as it is in Carrara's case as Mick points out, I think it's not too much to ask for DAZ to support their own flagship figure in their own flagship modeling/rendering app. There certainly have been some very poor bugs in the first releases of V4, but the current one really seems to be okay. All the embedded magnet junk doesn't have any use outside of Poser, but it's nearly all intended for conforming clothing anyway, and if you're going to one of the bigger apps then it's reasonable to try to work with their various implementations of dynamic cloth as an alternative to conforming clothing where necessary imo. Outside of that, the main thing that you seem to have to give up when you get rid of the magnets seems to be boobie movement morphs, not a big deal when going to a heavy modeling/rendering app.

Quote - it does little good to whine & moan about buggy software that's just been released. while i agree they should wait until at least 90% of them are worked out, in this world where a hint becomes a rumor becomes a fact becomes an I WANT IT NOW - they speed things up, to the detriment of quality. In essence, if you buy software within the first year of its release - expect the bugs - you get to play guinea pig.

DAZ|Studio was a working beta for roughly a year before it was released to the public. > Quote - also, even the best beta testers can't find ALL the issues. and i imagine the programmers had a hard time keeping up with the comments from the beta tester peanut gallery.

Agreed. Us Mac users have an easier time of it though... our boxes are relatively consistent. I just got done plonking a huge chunk of cash down for a family member's upcoming funeral, so it'll be a bit before I can get any new toys (and explains why I'm going to have to make my old dual G5 Mac stretch out a year or two longer). That said, it'll give me time to see what other folks can do with it for a month or two. OTOH, I like the potential I'm seeing here. (Now if someone coughs up a Linux version of either? Screw it; I can deal with minor bugs in that case). /P

Quote - If you value your time, even as a hobbyist, then it may be worth the price to go to a "big app" if you can get away from the enormous waste of time it can be to try to integrate Poser, a higher-quality renderer, dynamic cloth, hair, modeling, texturing in 3d, yadda yadda (it has been for me). It's pretty nice to have nearly-everything in one app instead of five different ones, for the single-person art department.

Exactly. Me, I'd be happy with four proggies: AC3D for modelling, export the .obj, integrate with the Poser stuff in Carrara, with D|S for light and occasional use otherwise. Maybe use GIMP for touch-ups and other stuff. It kinda simplifies things, and the whole wad would be dirt-cheap and nearly seamless when compared to the expense and array of what most folks use nowadays. /P

Quote - Does lightwave have hair?

The current LW solution for things like hair, fur, and grass is Sasquatch by Worley Labs.

http://www.worley.com/

I haven't used it, so I can't testify to it.

Quote - Now if someone coughs up a Linux version of either?

I've personally known maybe one or two people who have used Linux for anything other than for servers -- and I"ve known a LOT of PC users over the years. If e-frontier were to offer a Linux-based version of Poser Pro, they might sell 250 copies. Or DAZ with C6Pro tailored for Linux.

If I'm ever feeling adventurous: I might consider setting up Linux on a dual-boot.

This is coming from a guy who currently supports a couple of hundred Linux-using graphics developers, (not counting servers - just devs who have and use Linux professionally @ their workstations).

A couple of years ago, diffusion of distributions and low marketshare had kept DAZ out of the Linux biz (and for good reason... when you only have so many programmers, you keep 'em where they can best maintain the bottom line.)

Nowadays, things have changed.

If, for instance, DAZ ported D|S for use with Ubuntu, contacted Canonical (the company that distributes Ubuntu), and had them ship D|S and the free basic content packages with every Ubuntu download (with a few neat announcements and etc)?

You'd likely see a doubling of Poserdom's active user base inside of six months, with perhaps a nice percentage (not great, but nice) of those becoming regular customers.

No, I'm not kidding.

Ubuntu (and thus Desktop Linux) usage is growing almost exponentially, and the number of people who would be willing to play with and fall in love with 3D/CG artwork would likely grow along with that curve.

So why Ubuntu and not (fave distro)? Because Ubuntu is a clear leader in desktop Linux, and while I myself prefer Fedora Core, Fedora Core (RedHat) wouldn't ship it w/ D|S installed due to their own philosophies concerning proprietary code - based apps.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss an OS there...

/P

Quote - So, I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss an OS there...

Oh.....I wouldn't dream of dismissing Linux. It clearly has it's place in the current computing environment -- a place that's mostly reserved for pros and for corporations -- and for IT types.

But I'll also not hesitate to observe that desktop Linux is nowhere near Windows numbers, user-base wise. The numbers just aren't there. And your workaday 3D types aren't likely to all start switching, pell-mell, over to desktop Linux anytime soon. Plus there's the added consideration that Linux developers probably aren't even thinking about 3D users, for the most part. 3D is likely a very, very tiny portion of the overall Linux market.

I have no doubt that Linux is the stable, secure, wonderful OS that it's loyal aficionados (mostly IT types) claim that it is. I used to use Unix back in the day, and I've used Linux redhat on a server for data backups in the past, too. So I've touched it. But I haven't noticed a general run on Linux coming from anywhere except in the room with the raised floors & circulating air vents in the tiles. I don't doubt that there are graphics companies which are going that way -- but I seriously tend to doubt that the average freelancer is.

The problem with an OS like Linux is that it requires the user to know something. It isn't plug 'n play. Mac does that better -- and so does Windows (for the most part).

I've known Linux 'experts' who had to hire a Linux EXPERT to get something to work for them. Which is good for the EXPERT, I suppose. But it can be a problem for the 'expert'.

......but I'll acknowledge that I might have an easier time getting certain programs to work in Linux that I would in Vista 64bit. A co-worker of mine bought a new PC a few weeks ago, and decided to go with Vista 64bit. He's not having fun.

Attached Link: Check it.

Got one word for ye: Blender. (link above). /P

interesting that trueSpace is right after Max... and Flash is a modeling program???

Quote - interesting that trueSpace is right after Max... and Flash is a modeling program???

Those rankings are based on animation software.

I think that Peng's point was more along the lines of a free application beating out the more costly pro apps for distribution numbers. Not unusual, for something that's free. I'd be curious to know if the number of active Blender users is anything near the number of downloaders -- kind of like Poser freestuff downloads. I suspect that many people download, but never actually use.

In any case, Linux is an OS with a predominantly specialized user base at the moment. It's a chancy thing to attempt to get Windows apps to work under Linux. You might or you might not be able to do so successfully. That fact alone is probably enough to keep most people away from Linux for the time being. As for what the future holds........on this score: I don't know. Vista hasn't exactly taken the computing world by storm -- yet. But if Microsoft makes their new flagship OS more backwards-compatible, then they will have solved around 90% of their current problems.

BTW - that's also an issue to keep in mind for those who occasionally insist that e-frontier needs to create a whole new version of Poser with re-written, new technology from the ground up. The loss of the use of substantial reams of existing Poser content wouldn't be received gladly by many in the Poser community. Even if the sacrifice meant a fantastic new program.

http://www.blendernation.com/2007/06/04/blender-no1-animation-packaged-based-on-number-of-installed-copies/

Quote - > Quote - interesting that trueSpace is right after Max... and Flash is a modeling program???

Those rankings are based on animation software.

which is even more amazing. I use tS everyday... and not for it's animation. thats.... not it's best feature.

I'm not surprised. Truespace has been around for ages. People recognize the name, and download it to try it. Maybe they had it back in 1998 or so, and are curious about new features. The download rankings don't mean that people are actually using it more often than some others for that reason.

I'm really not surprised about Blender being 1st either. Free is free. They download it out of curiosity, load it, struggle with it's wacky interface for a while, then get some real animation work done in Maya, Max, or XSI.

Just kidding of course. Maybe.

That List 99.9% of any one that owns a 3D owns poser also.

Who don't own Poser,ya know.

So I am skeptical about that list

And I think the list would defer from Pro to Hobbyist as to who uses what app's.

And the Pros would defer also.

Charter animators would most use XSI,Maya

Sci-Fi LW huge work space.

How big is LW's work space ?

You can actually fit the solar system in it or 10,000,000,000 ^1,000,000,000 Poser work places in it.OK I might have gotten carried away with the 0's ;)

TrueSpace has / had free versions and cheep versions also.

Also I would think deferent languages speaking 3D Artist would rank differently.

So ya need 1000 deferent list Pro,CA,Games, Hobbits etc etc.
Now it's getting ridiculous

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - That List 99.9% of any one that owns a 3D owns poser also.

Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiight. Positive thinking is good for the soul, so they say. I work with at least 10 people who I know for a fact have never even seen the Poser interface (much less used it), and yet most of them have been doing '3D' for the better part of a decade. Hmmm. Besides, if that were even remotely close, the makers of Poser would be among the wealthiest 3D software manufacturers in the world, because it would mean virtually every single person who own any other 3D app, including those millions of Blender users, and the over 6 million seats of 3dsmax (legal or not), would also own Poser. Man, I'd venture to guess that means... pause to factor in the users of Maya, XSI, Houdini, Lightwave, C4D, Carrara, A:M, and all the dozens of other apps... Poser must have a user base in excess of 20 million people or so. Content creators must be rolling in it! I'm just kidding of course. But not really.

Quote - Who don't own Poser,ya know.

Sorry, I must raise my hand in shame. I was thinking about getting it, but all I ever see in the forum here are complaints, sprinkled with a few words of praise here and there. Makes for entertaining reading though, if yer bored.

Quote - I think that Peng's point was more along the lines of a free application beating out the more costly pro apps for distribution numbers. Not unusual, for something that's free. I'd be curious to know if the number of active Blender users is anything near the number of downloaders -- kind of like Poser freestuff downloads. I suspect that many people download, but never actually use.

To be honest, that would be about the same across-the-board. Incidentally, Blender is predominantly installed under Linux (the OS which it was primarily built for), which is why I used it as a reference. All of that said, the poll I referenced was based on the number of respondents by a general 3D mag, not by the folks at Blender. > Quote - In any case, Linux is an OS with a predominantly specialized user base at the moment. It's a chancy thing to attempt to get Windows apps to work under Linux. You might or you might not be able to do so successfully.

I repeat: Blender runs natively in Linux. As does AC3D (which I have). As does Shake, Maya, Wings3D(IIRC), POV-Ray, and a whole panopoly of other 3D proggies. This also explains why I use GIMP and not Photoshop - even on my Mac. The only thing really missing for my workflow IMHO is a cheap compositor (Poser or D|S - Shake is hella pricey). > Quote - BTW - that's also an issue to keep in mind for those who occasionally insist that e-frontier needs to create a whole new version of Poser with re-written, new technology from the ground up. The loss of the use of substantial reams of existing Poser content wouldn't be received gladly by many in the Poser community. Even if the sacrifice meant a fantastic new program.

Porting and re-writing a program are two vastly different things. I could most likely take the existing OSX/Intel codebase for Poser and port it to Linux with only moderate effort - most of that spent in porting the UI (both are BSD-flavored *nixes). D|S would be almost trivial to do (as it uses Qt for its UI library set). 2) on tangent, re-writing a program from scratch does not mean loss of compatibility: see also D|S and Poser 4 content (which is what they originally wrote it for). Just some thoughts. /P

If Poser were re-written from the ground up, I'd be extremely surprised if all existing content still worked with the program afterwards. But I have to admit that stranger things have happened. I just wouldn't bet that way.

I wonder how many (free) Blender downloaders are using Linux?

I downloaded a copy of Blender several years ago. I had an eye to using it at my job at the time. It got briefly looked over: I never installed it. Other distractions mattered more back then. And now.......? I've got enough to learn already, and not enough hours in the day to learn it + plus time to do everything else that I have to do. Blender isn't on my radar screen at the moment, free or not.

Quote - Sorry, I must raise my hand in shame. I was thinking about getting it, but all I ever see in the forum here are complaints, sprinkled with a few words of praise here and there. Makes for entertaining reading though, if yer bored.

Oh, I've duly noted flame wars on highend sites, too. I think that it's more of a human nature thing than it is of a software thing.

As for the shame of not having Poser on your hard drive -- admitting that the problem exists is the first step to fixing it. You haven't been addicted yet: so you'll need to follow the 12 steps of AA in reverse order -- so that you'll become as addicted as the rest of us.

I once heard a stat that Poser is THE most pirated software in the world. If that's true, then it's possible that Poser has more than 20,000,000 users. Too bad for e-frontier that they aren't getting paid for those extra seats. The president of e-frontier might be among the world's 100 richest men.

Quote -
Oh, I've duly noted flame wars on highend sites, too. I think that it's more of a human nature thing than it is of a software thing.

Flame wars? Sure. Outright bitching and complaining up and down about the software they (don't) know how to use? Not nearly as much as I see here.

Quote - I once heard a stat that Poser is THE most pirated software in the world. If that's true, then it's possible that Poser has more than 20,000,000 users.

Eh, I'd be surprised if Poser sells more than 60,000 licensed units on any given release. Maybe they do, but I don't care. So if they have a user base in the millions, that's really a hell of a lot of priated copies being used. 3dsmax is widely known as one of the most pirated 3D applications out there, but we know that has to do with it being so tightly connected to the gaming industry. You know, all those millions of young gamers who wanted to make mods for their 'levels' first turned to gMax, which was free, then quickly decided to get the 'better' version... which is 3dsmax. Ooops!... it's $3k, and they've already maxed-out mommy's credit card on porn this month! Time to pay a visit to the torrent underground.

Quote - Flame wars? Sure. Outright bitching and complaining up and down about the software they (don't) know how to use? Not nearly as much as I see here.

Viewed from that standpoint -- possibly true. Sad, but possibly true.

As for highender's seeming built-in prejudice against Poser: if so few of them have it, or have even tried it -- then how did they form their solid opinions against it? Very likely by osmosis from their peers..................

I see Poser figures and Poser animations being used at the supposedly "pro" level all of the time. I've seen national magazine print ads that were clearly done in Poser. I've also seen Poser animations used regularly in places like History Channel & Biography Channel documentary shows -- as well as many other places. I would term such use as "professional level".

It's quick & easy to slap together a 3D re-creation of a real-life crime in Poser -- and then use the animation for illustration purposes on an FBI Files type of show. I've seen this done often. I've also seen plenty of Poser animations put to similar use elsewhere on television.

Quote - Eh, I'd be surprised if Poser sells more than 60,000 licensed units on any given release. Maybe they do, but I don't care. So if they have a user base in the millions, that's really a hell of a lot of priated copies being used. 3dsmax is widely known as one of the most pirated 3D applications out there, but we know that has to do with it being so tightly connected to the gaming industry. You know, all those millions of young gamers who wanted to make mods for their 'levels' first turned to gMax, which was free, then quickly decided to get the 'better' version... which is 3dsmax. Ooops!... it's $3k, and they've already maxed-out mommy's credit card on porn this month! Time to pay a visit to the torrent underground.

Not surprising. 3DS Max's sister app, AutoCAD, is heavily pirated, too. That goes with the territory these days.

Rabid gamers? They are notorious on a number of levels. Hey -- stealing items is a major aspect of many RPG's. So why not extend such behavior to the real-world software needed to build the game in the first place? We've all heard reports about violent murders being commited in Southeast Asia over events that transpired in an RPG. But I won't get into that here.

Poser animations, or Poser content animated in something else? It's very common to bang out a morph/customization in Poser, export as a whole textured .obj, then import to {high-end-app}, rig, and fire away (if the rigs haven't already been pre-built for the base figure in the first place). Custom 3D humanoid meshes are expensive, and building one takes a lot of time.

--

Meanwhile, I didn't mean to distract around Blender, just that it shows a whole lotta Linux usage out there (the majority of Blender installs are in Linux). Point is, if DAZ could squeeze in D|S to a major distro, it could very easily build a much larger userbase than it has today.

Whether Poser does or not? Dunno; they don't have the freebie app option (though a port of Poser 4/5 as a freebie version would work well enough).

Meanwhile, yep... 3DS Max and etc. are pirated heavily (ironically, in spite of C-DILLA or whatever kind of dongle Discreet is using nowadays).

/P

I would say it was Photoshop. I'm one of the rare ones that does not have a copy of it. I don't have any theft ware. But I have not found a single person when I go out to a bar or store or where ever and ask, " Do you have Photshop?" the answer is always yes and 99.9% tell you they got it for free and believe that it is legal to have that copy. I have even asked cops and have been told that by them. So I would say Photoshop is the most pirated software.

Now, many of us that have something to say about poser are not newbies as devilsreject want's to believe. Poser users are very passionate about thier app. So emotion tends to take over sense. It has nothing to do with not knowing how to use the software. Don't forget that you need poser to rig if you model you own stuff. Poser rigging may not be the best but it is anuniversal rigging that many apps can read. Thus making Poser a needed tool, specially if your a merchant. It gives you a wider range of user sales.

Hmm I don't know how applicable this is to this thread still, but I love Carrara and can't wait to get c6p. Now that I have learned how to pose in it, I barely have any use for Poser at all anymore. I do still use it, for me the textures are easier to apply in Poser - then I transfer all to Carrara. I would rather dig my eyes out with spoons these days, than to render in Poser.

Maybe I'm so happy with it because I don't read the complaint boards : p

I am: aka Velocity3d

"Maybe I'm so happy with it because I don't read the complaint boards : p"

Or you have not bought C6 yet. LOL

I hate to say this, but I've known people to do things like purchase one of Adobe's Creative Suites packages at the student price -- using their son's college student status as the justification. And then they proceeded to use the software to run their own web business.

shrug At least they paid for approx. half of it. I suppose that beats stealing it outright.

Devil Reject you beleave what ever you want to.

Penguinisto, A exspearanced 3D Artist with a Fab 5 app could produce a V4 in 8 hours.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

Quote - Penguinisto, A exspearanced 3D Artist with a Fab 5 app could produce a V4 in 8 hours.

Nah, no way, regardless of how good the individual might be. Maybe the raw modeling - maybe - but not modeling, texturing, rigging, and all the damn morph targets, no. More like a thousand hours or more. If it were a simple 8 hour job, somebody would do it and make loads of money on Turbosquid. Look at Masha, imo a pretty good model, rigged and with a few morph targets - distantly behind any Poser figure in terms of flexibility.

Somehow, I don't think that DAZ has 8 hours of development time invested in V4.

That's kinda silly to say.

I mean we all know how software companies are. If they could feasibly spend less than 8 hours on a full model there would be hundreds of them out by daz right now - that had come out since V4 no less....

I am: aka Velocity3d

Quote - Somehow, I don't think that DAZ has 8 hours of development time invested in V4.

I'm just talking a girl that looks like V4 or any Poser or 3D female mesh.

We are not talking about any morphs.

I should have said that to start with,my bad.

They modeled V4 to morph alot of deferent ways so that took some planning.

And to make all those morphs took some time I am sure.

But if ya was using one of the Fab 5 app's ya would not use morphs to make her look deferent ya would just move the vertices.

Morphing to make ya mesh look like another girl is a Poser thing.

Modo is a wicked modeler and has a automatic Mapper that rocks.

I would buy Modo just for the Mapper alone.

Would be nothing to model, map a girl in Modo.

Throw the mesh in a app that has automatic rigs and the basic mesh is done.

Slap some dynamic hair and a dynamic dress on her bang it's done 8 hours easy, seriously.

Anyways if ya think I am insane on the fab 5 forms.

Ask Artist that has made charter meshes and can show you there meshes how long to make a 3D Mesh girl.

If thay can not show you a character mesh they made then there not qualified.

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

If it's so blinking easy to create a V4 quality chick (not counting the day or two it would cost to create the morphs) why aren't any of the pros spending a weekend or two to create some competition for Daz? Modo has cool mapping tools (when they don’t crash) but I doubt you’ll get by with the automatic maps if your model has any complexity.

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"But if ya was using one of the Fab 5 app's ya would not use morphs to make her look deferent ya would just move the vertices.

Morphing to make ya mesh look like another girl is a Poser thing."

Moving a vert is a morph. Does not matter if it is one of your "Fab 5" or not. They all use Weight maps, vert maps, displacment maps and so on. It does not matter what they are called. They all do pretty much the same thing. They save and or create vert movement, which as far as I know, is a morph. I would think so because they can be turned on or off, beside being called morphs by ther "Fab 5" creators.

Am I missing something here?

Well, displacement maps are totally different - they don't move geometry at all, they just create the appearance of it at render time. Vertex maps and weight maps seem to be a way of defining falloff for various things, including how joints deform in rigging a figure, but aren't quite the same thing as a morph target since they're never actually stored as such.

Quote - Would be nothing to model, map a girl in Modo.

After viewing many, many attempts on CGSociety and other places by experienced modelers, I don't think so. I'm thinking of a lot of WIP threads I've watched and I don't recall anybody with high quality results that took 8 hours to model and texture, more like months. I think you're giving too much credit to automatic mapping too.

Quote - Throw the mesh in a app that has automatic rigs and the basic mesh is done.

Uh, no, it doesn't work like that at all. Just face rigging (if you're too awesome to design expression morph targets) is horribly finicky and difficult. Rigging hands is also extremely difficult even with something fairly easy like Biped.

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_T_HyperNURBS.htm

I'm sometimes amazed by the plethora of misinformation circulating around here regarding highend software, especially coming from some ill-informed Poser users who clearly have, at the very least, only a foggy understanding of what they're talking about.

Quote: "Morphing to make ya mesh look like another girl is a Poser thing."

Whatever. Morphing in highend apps is extremely common. You move verts around to create a morph target, which is then activated for things like facial expression and articulation in animation. In 3dsmax we have a Morpher modifier, which allows you to load dozens of morph targets to a base figure. All the highend apps I know of have something similar. Just ask the folks over at Weta Digital about the 800+ facial expression morphs created for the Gollum character in LOTR.

Quote: "Ask Artist that has made charter meshes and can show you there meshes how long to make a 3D Mesh girl."*

I can probably model the subD form of a girl in less than an afternoon. However, that's not including texture mapping and rigging, and it's not including a lot of detail work. Unwrapping the UVs, and painting detailed texture maps for diffuse, specular, bump, epidermal, subdermal, and reflection can take a couple days. If I'm using photo textures, then not quite as long, but still not in 8 hours.

Quote: "If thay can not show you a character mesh they made then there not qualified."

Just take a look at my gallery. Everything except the girl in my Avatar was modelled, rigged, textured, and rendered by me. The girl I only did the rigging, texturing, and render.

Funny how the modo tutorials state that vertex maps are morphs, with the power of different types of fall-offs.. But my point, which you missed, was that anything that moves or given the apperance of change is a morph. Shade weight maps that I have used are called morphs too. I would classify displacment mapping as morphing also as it gives the illusion of change. Then again my post was about someone stating that morphs are a poser thing and I was pointing out that it was not just a Poser thing and used buy the so called "Fab 5" also.

One thing that can be done in Poser is the transfer of bones from one figure to another. Helps if they have the same type of grouping but not need if you know how to use the setup room.

Paloth

DAZ rules Poser.

But what made A,V,M 3's and V4

Is all the venders making stuff for them.

So if you want to compete with DAZ you need 100's of venders making stuff for your mesh.

If ya was going to be a vender.

You would probably make more $$$ if ya made cloths for DAZ,Poser charters.

then to make ya own mesh.

beryld

ah yes and no lol.

they make Poser morphs buy moving vertices.

how they get moved or what there called is not important.

what is important is.

can you remodel the mesh ?

Polycount ?

when ya make V4 morphs you can not remodel the mesh at all.

and you half to deal with a high polycount. its a pain.

His name is Chrome

if I want to change his looks if I need to I can remodel a part

his poly count is a lot lower in C4D cause of hyperNurbs.

deferent apps have deferent slang but

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/C4D9/RK_C4D9_Weights.htm

its a hyoernurb thing

http://www.atomic-3d.com/RK_Tutorial/RK_Sub_D_Quads.htm

There is also maps for rigs.

most the time a morph in a fab 5 app would be facial expression.

don't use morphs to make a new character like in poser with 1000 deferent V4 Versions with deferent names but same mesh.

Pjz99

a lot learn there 3D tools but modeling parts of charters or what ever and never get finished.

very few can model a character from head to toe.

a lot of cars thou lol.

XSI has a killer automatic rigger.some are better then others

Devilsreject

Kool meshes.

I'm amazed at how polite people are here at times.

If we had a mesh and wanted it to look like another mesh we don't make morphs to do so.

We don't confine are self to a unimesh do we.

Ya morphs for a smile but not a new character.

Anyways don't want to argue with anyone I am just trying to explain stuff to broden everyone's horizons

think that is the first responsibility of a Artist.

Anyways ya can import V4 or any Poser mesh in to a fab 5 app or any app that has the tools and animate her in it if ya want to.
might need new rigs

============================================================

The Artist that will fight for decades to conquer their media.
Even if you never know their name ,your know their Art.
Dark Sphere Mage Vengeance

LOL. That's OK, I just realized, some of us need to learn to spell "by" and not "Buy" Points at himself.

Not to over-argue the point, but vertex maps in themselves are maps - they can be used to define falloff for joint morphing in rigging, but they can be used for completely different things besides e.g. applying "dirt" shading at render time, or falloff for dynamic cloth constraints, or all sorts of things. Looking in the documentation for 3ds Max, May and Cinema 4D they all say the same thing, your Modo tutorialis notwirhstanding.

Again, missing the point.

Maybe Modo refers to Point Cache (vertex cache) as vertex mapping? What I mean is (and I've never laid eyes on Modo yet so I don't know for sure) baking vertex motion to a mesh can be considered animation morphing. I've never really heard it referred to that way, but if that's what they mean, then I understand it. That's quite different than weight mapping vertices on a rig though.

Quote - Again, missing the point.

You don't like being corrected, do you.

In Modo, vertex maps is a category that includes several subcategories, one of which is morphs. Modo is identical to Lightwave in this respect, except that Lightwave calls morphs “endomorphs.”

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Leave it to Lightwave to overcomplicate a workflow.

Leave it to Lightwave to overcomplicate a workflow. By categorizing morphs as vertex maps? Not terribly complicated in my book.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote - By categorizing morphs as vertex maps? Not terribly complicated in my book.

Not complicated, just unorthodox in my book.

I don't mind being corrected.

Paloth, not to surprising with Lightwave and Modo made by some of the same programers.

Paloth, not to surprising with Lightwave and Modo made by some of the same programmers. Yeah. I'm not sure whether Modo is the easiest to learn modeler ever created or if it's just the similarity to Lightwave that made it second nature.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

I'm finding it fairy easy to learn, a lot of it to learn, which seems to be the volume of what it does to be more the learning curve than how hard it is to understand. I can't remember having as much fun learning a new software as much as I have had with Modo.

Quote -

Modo is a wicked modeler and has a automatic Mapper that rocks.

I would buy Modo just for the Mapper alone.

Would be nothing to model, map a girl in Modo.

Throw the mesh in a app that has automatic rigs and the basic mesh is done.

Slap some dynamic hair and a dynamic dress on her bang it's done 8 hours easy, seriously.

....IIRC, um, the big deal made over at DAZ with Modo was...uh, wasn't V4 modelled in Modo? Because, I think that's what the hype was all about with Modo. Not to add to an argument that has me, again, rolling my eyes.

Every time this argument comes up, I'm reminded of art teams at the big studios. Modellers do their things, riggers do theirs, texture artists do theirs, lighting artists do theirs, animators do theirs and renderers do theirs.
Rarely, if ever, is ANYONE on the team more than one type of artist for the project. So, why is it SUCH a stigma for Poser users to not have modelled, textured, or lit what they're creating as artwork?
These "mine's bigger than yours" contests with software are absolutely ridiculous.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

....IIRC, um, the big deal made over at DAZ with Modo was...uh, wasn't V4 modeled in Modo? Because, I think that's what the hype was all about with Modo. Not to add to an argument that has me, again, rolling my eyes. I'm not sure what excited them over at Daz, but Pixar uses Modo for character modeling, which is more significant than V4's origin, in my opinion. Plus you can uv map, 3d paint, design buildings, interiors or just about anything. It's really good--when it doesn't crash. Hopefully the next version will be more stable.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote -
....IIRC, um, the big deal made over at DAZ with Modo was...uh, wasn't V4 modelled in Modo?

Modo is one of the tools used on V4; nowhere near all of them, though - not even the only Modeler - since more than one person worked w/ it. Some folks there love it (I know of at least two who would have sex with a rabid wolverine before they gave up Modo), while others have their own prefs.

Quote - Rarely, if ever, is ANYONE on the team more than one type of artist for the project. So, why is it SUCH a stigma for Poser users to not have modelled, textured, or lit what they're creating as artwork?

I think the big stink in some cases has to do with what's being passed off, skill-wise. Posting a Poser mesh render in CGTalk w/o specifying that you're only working on lights, animation, or etc. skills tends to lead people on.

/P

Modo is an app about which I've heard almost nothing but good things coming from its users -- including new users. The issue which Paloth has mentioned concerning crashes is the first negative that I've heard, anywhere.

I can count on less than one hand the apps that I've seen get talked about by 95%(?) of the users in such a positive way over the years. Modo gets high praise for its intuitive nature, and for its excellent UV capabilities. I've heard several Maya / Max users comment on the fact that they've come to use Modo as their "go-to" first modeler of choice. And in my book, that's saying something.

There might have been some "hype" going on with the recent DAZ deal for Modo (a deal which I took advantage of). But it's been one of the few "hype campaigns" where the end users -- after actually trying Modo -- have ended up agreeing with the hype.

JenX

I was just talking, not ragging Poser.

I'm a Poser user my self.

So why would I rag Poser artist.