Given the sluggish performance of some of the latest computer graphics software on my system, I think it's probably time to upgrade. If you were to go into a computer shop and request them to build your dream machine, what would be the ingredients? I know I'd like a quad core, 64 bit system, but I haven't been following the latest advances in computer hardware. What sort of video card would be best? How much is the maximum memory that a 64 bit computer can handle? Is it advisable to max out?

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If I were to upgrade: http://www.apple.com , and go for the high-end (ab't $2500-$3000 or so, not counting the monitor). I'd do it because 1) I'm lazy, 2) OSX kicks arse in the 64-bit department, and 3) I don't have to futz around w/ anti-virus, spyware, or any other resource-sucking apps. PC-only stuff? Prolly the following: * a motherboard that can support everything below... * dual Core2Duo - a single quad core will mean four cores fighting for the same front-side bus, IIRC. Only problem is, Windows kinda sucks hind teat in the 64-bit department for now. They'll get the problems ironed out eventually, though, so 64-bit ain't a bad idea. * DDR2 RAM - the faster, the better. And tons of it, preferably 2-4GB. * Dual SATA2 hard drives, hardware RAID-0 striped. 500MB each will do, but you may want to shoot for a pair of 750's. The big thing is spindle speeds... the faster, the better. Same with hard drive Cache. Skip the 8MB, and go for 16 or 32MB if you can swing it. * video cards - a later-model NVIDIA GeForce works well enough... you won't reap much benefit from SLI or anything just yet - give it a couple of years through and it'll prolly become standard. Other than that, you should be set. HTH, /P

Quote - Only problem is, Windows kinda sucks hind teat in the 64-bit department for now.

How's that?  I have 64-bit versions of Windows XP Pro, Cinema 4D R10, Vue 6 Infinite, 3ds Max 9, and Maya 8.5 Unlimited and all of them work well.  Incidentally there is no point in even considering 64-bit platform and apps if you're sticking under 4GB, that's the main advantage of 64-bit processing (huge memory address space).

Note that Poser can only render in 4 threads, so if you're really keen on Poser then there's no point in considering more than 4 cores, although other apps can make use of more cores.

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Note that Poser can only render in 4 threads, so if you're really keen on Poser then there's no point in considering more than 4 cores, although other apps can make use of more cores. I thought 4 cores was the current limit. Did you mean to say 2 cores? What would be the specs for your dream system, pjz99? (which I suspect you already own.)

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How bout' a computer that is available now with 4 CPUs (each with duel cores) for a total of eight CPUs to crunch all your apps now and well into the future?

 Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things!  ; )

Holy cow! Can current software make use of all those CPUs?

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

I would go (and did go for) the 8 core Mac Pro if your running Windows or OS X. I have Windows running on a Mac Pro via Boot Camp and have no problems at all.
You can run in a RAID 5 config and all in all it is competitive in the value for money stakes, considering you have in theory, 24 Ghz of processing power ;0)

The only problem I am aware of is that EFI is used to boot a Mac instead of BIOS, so you have to make sure that your software is compatible (I've heard that some people have had problems with 3DS Max).

 

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--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

I just upgraded mine to this, I went for 64 bit because Vue6Inf is a 64 bit app. and the new Poser Pro soon to be released is going to be 64 bit also.

Intel Quad Q6600 processor
Asus P5K-E Mobo
Nvidia 8600GT Graphics
8 Gig 800MHz RAM
2 x 250 Gig HD's in Raid 1 array [mirrored]
Windows Vista Ultimate 64

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

The dual processor quad-core macs are pretty impossible to beat right now, if you have an app that can make use of more than 4 cores (any of the "big boy" apps).  My personal preference is an Intel running Microsoft, but it's pretty hard to find a dual socket 775 motherboard (I'm unable to find ANY), so if your apps support that much hardware, the top shelf Macs are the penultimate.

What I have currently, and imo pretty close to optimal for the Intel world:
Intel QX6700 (the more recent QX6800 marginally beats it, but both are very overpriced next to the Q6700 at around half the cost)
Asus P5WDH Deluxe motherboard
8GB memory
4x 500GB SATA hard drives, with 3x in a RAID0 array (striping, no parity) and 1x off to the side for backups and miscellaneous stuff
NVidia 8800GTX, 768MB video memory
20" NEC LCD monitor
A too-damn-big Wacom Intuos3 (I think 6x9) with airbrush thingy
A Genuine Clickety IBM Keyboard (the best part of all)
Windows XP Pro 64-bit edition (extremely bulletproof and well-behaved)

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ps: it's a cool thing to see this when you render. pps: although 8 of em would be even better.

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fixer and pjz, are you saying the dual quad Macs are the ultimate....to boot windows and run your 3D software?  Or to run Mac versions of that software?

:: og ::

operaguy: I'm not on a MAC, never had one and likely never will, not because I have anything against them, just that I've used windows from day 1 

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

If you aren't quite ready to upgrade just yet, you might want to keep an eye on the AMD sites; the chip wars are about to get hot once again. The Phenom processors are about to hit the channel (the official end of the Athlon series cores), with 2,3, and 4 core variations (the triple core is a quad that didn't pass on one core, so they plan on burning the fuse to the bad one, and having the triple core as a value slated offering to get the most out of their yields.). There is supposed to be a list of existing AM2 mobo's out there that -will- support the Phenom.....and frankly, the underlying tech is still much better than Intel's. One group unaffiliated with either side has already come out with numbers that show the AMD chips have a better power consumption curve when idling than the Intel duals and dual duals (which is what their quad cores actually are; another tidbit that points to the differences in base tech is that Intel is busy trying to adapt AMD's memory controller on the chip to their product, and copying the HyperTransport scheme and naming something else so they can claim they have this great new idea....not playing catchup with the littler fellow). Now the power consumption is more relevant for the server market....or people who leave the system on all the time. For rendering appliances, it will make a bit of difference in cost to run (as in your power bill, and the ambient heat the thing generates). As for memory; do some research before you choose a memory speed. Bigger numbers do not a cool speed up mean. It's been a rule of thumb (there might have been a change with the very last revision) since DDR2 came out that the actual performance difference between the DDR2-667 and DDR2-800 has been less than 5%....with the prices not exactly reflecting this truth. Most of the testers have found a benchmarking difference, but could notice no actual performance difference. So you get into the 'Do I get the geekiest fastest, or the slower, cheaper memory and get more of it for the same cost?' question. If you are rendering, the latter is the answer, natch. Video is almost totally up in the air at the moment. With uber cards affordable by the masses (not the pro cards, just uber cards), SLI and Crossfire pretty much -not- being supported by anyone save the game companies, M$ dinking around with OpenGL support yet again, it's a coin toss. But if you have the desk space, dual monitors can be soooo helpful. If you go with RAID, then I'd recommend a 0+1 array; that way you get the speed of data striping, and a backup in case your main array go boom. Ideally you'd want a not so large 0+1 for OS and apps, then a second, much larger 0+1 for content and workfiles. But whether you go for RAID or not, plan from the beginning to keep your content and work files on separate physical drives from the applications and OS. That way if one either of them tanks, you don't lose your work. And you might want to invest in one of the networked drives, or put together a 500 gig USB2 safety drive to backup all your perishables onto. And a battery backup. Don't forget the backup. Even if it lasts just long enough for the OS to save the work and shut down, it will save you no end of grief....

f*ixer and pjz, are you saying the dual quad Macs are the ultimate....to boot windows and run your 3D software?  Or to run Mac versions of that software?

:: og ::

take your pick......... either........... or

What they are saying is Apple Has Made the MAC vs PC argument somewhat **moot.
**for those with the $$Means$$

the New Mac Pro hardware can run a true installation of windows or OSX
on separate partitions/drive so if you already have alot a Mac software
you can now buy and run PC only apps like XSI etc on the same hardware
at full (not emulated!!) speed.

but as far as the original posters question
for me personally when I decide I want to re render my own version of
the**" Defense of Helms Deep from "(LOTR**) that is when i will have a legitimate need to justify the $$$Cost$$ of all this uber hardware

Cheers

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sorry fixer, i meant to ask pjz and cheers

No worries! [LOL].

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

I have a different philosophy than Dale about hard drives.

I don't believe in mirroring for artistic work, given a limited budget. Nor do I believe in huge RAID-0 arrays for the working directory.

Instead, I believe in steady, methodical, frequent backup.

I purchase the highest quality, fast HD for my working array, very reliable; but I assume it will crash and burn at any second!

I use the smaller Raptors. When I built my last system I bought two 35-Gig, so with RAID-0 that made 70Gig working directory. On this I put Poser, Runtime Folder and current work files (.pz3).

I have another small drive on which I have only the operating system and the page file.

In my opinion, this creates the fastest access while posing and rendering. 

Since the working volume is 'small' and can crash at any second, I constantly backup my Runtime&Work folders to several large external HDs, and again to DVD-data disks for storage offsite. My most precisous pz3 I upload to my webserver for another layer of backup.

I suppose now a "small" array would be two 74-gig Raptors, yielding a working directory of 148Gig. I don't think you can even obtain the 35GIG anymore!

http://www.techbargains.com/news_displayItem.cfm/100373?rss=1
NOTE: $129 for a 74 Gig drive might seem expensive to some, but these raptors are very reliable, very fast and very good.

NOTE: The danger of a large working directory is that one gets lulled into thinking this is a "storage" directory, since it is so "big." That is dangerous thinking.

::::: Opera :::::

P.S. My 35x2 Raptor RAID-0 array has never failed, never faulted in two years of steady, heavy use.

operaguy: I went for a Raid1 array [mirrored] on my new set up for one reason and one reason only.
I regularly back up to XHD and DVD and last year I had 2 internal HD's fry on me, the second time, when using the back ups from the XHD it became corrupted and so I had to back up from the DVD's which took a lot longer.
With the Raid1 array I have now, I see it as additional back up and if one fails, it's straight down to the shop for a new drive, hopefully this covers me for most events!  [LOL].
And yes I'm still backing up to XHD and DVD [just in case, LOL].

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

yes mirroring can pull your bass outta the grass in a crisis. I am not against it, but you have these expensive drives performing nothing but constant current backup that are only used if a certain kind of crash occurs.

I will say one more word about it: we all should beware becoming lulled by a mirrored array on this score: if it causes us to put off REAL backup for a week, two weeks, whatever....if the entire rig is stollen or melted down or something....all is lost back to the last REAL backup.

Quote - > Quote - Only problem is, Windows kinda sucks hind teat in the 64-bit department for now.

How's that?  I have 64-bit versions of Windows XP Pro, Cinema 4D R10, Vue 6 Infinite, 3ds Max 9, and Maya 8.5 Unlimited and all of them work well.

d'oh! I kept thinking "Vista" when I typed that.

Quote - Incidentally there is no point in even considering 64-bit platform and apps if you're sticking under 4GB, that's the main advantage of 64-bit processing (huge memory address space).

True, but things get pricey after 4GB...

Quote - Note that Poser can only render in 4 threads, so if you're really keen on Poser then there's no point in considering more than 4 cores, although other apps can make use of more cores.

Actually, with more than 4 cores, you can do the Poser thang, the Cinema4D thang, and watch a movie all w/o bogging down a computer.

Quote -
I will say one more word about it: we all should beware becoming lulled by a mirrored array on this score: if it causes us to put off REAL backup for a week, two weeks, whatever....if the entire rig is stollen or melted down or something....all is lost back to the last REAL backup.

That's what NFS + cron + an old beat-em-up Linux box in a closet (w/ a couple really big HDD's in it) does for me - provides a nightly backup of all my goodies :)

/P

Quote - True, but things get pricey after 4GB...

Nah.  I've squeeged through this thread to get to my computer specs:

Asus P5N32-E SLI
Intel Q6600 Quad-Core
8GB
2x 500GB SATA-II
320GB SATA-II
DVD+/-RW/RAM/CD 20x
NVidia GeForce 8800GTX
*WiFi
*Windows XP Pro SP2 and Windows XP Pro x64 (dual boot)

All for about $2500. *I already had these.

On the other hand, even the stock 8-core MacPro starts at $2499 - and that is with the less than useful essentials (1GB ram - don't make me laugh).  A similarly specced MacPro 2xDual-Core is $4656 (yike!).  I like the Apple computers, but their prices never made me love them.  $1700 from 1-8 GB of memory is highway robbery.  You can get four 2GB Dimms for $150 each (that's $600).  Why does Apple continue to inflate memory prices when you can get the best out there for half the price (or less)?

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Ok...on my Mac Pro I'm running Vue 6 Infinite, Poser 6, C4D XL, Adobe Creative Suite CS3 and Modo...all on windows. On the Mac side I'm running Maya (which I use to verify my shader programming).
As I mentioned, you have to make sure that your windows program supports the EFI boot up sequence of a MAC, as there is no BIOS. As I said, I've only heard of problems with 3DS Max, but not confirmed it myself.

For a consumer accessible peice of hardware (and when money is a second consideration to speed), then the 8 core Mac Pro can't be beat IMHO. In fact I will defy anybody to get a windows box of the same spec at a vastly better price...you will be talking change in peanuts if you can even source the hardware in the first place.

kuroyume0161 - I take your points, but only a mug buys extra RAM from Apple...always go the 3rd party route ;0) As I said, if you want 24Ghz of processing power NOW...then an 8 core Mac Pro is the only way to go.

 

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The 2x Quad Macs (that's 8 cores!) are the top of the food chain when it comes to desktop hardware - so long as you have apps that really take advantage of more than 4 cores, which is prett much all of the high-end 3d suites.  Price and performance usually go hand in hand though; if you want maximum performance, you can usually expect to pay maximum price.

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Quote - but as far as the original posters question
for me personally when I decide I want to re render my own version of
the**" Defense of Helms Deep from "(LOTR**) that is when i will have a legitimate need to justify the $$$Cost$$ of all this uber hardware

 

My attitude towards hardware has evolved over time.  I now regard it as being what it is: a disposable commodity, with temporary utility at best.

I recall a "middle-class poverty-stricken" co-worker of mine taking out a $12,000 bank loan so that he could buy a 386/33 ("486 ready" -- HOT STUFF!!!!!!) machine.  He set the loan up like a car payment.  Perhaps he paid the loan off a couple of years ago..........we lost touch after we went our separate ways.

Basically, the approach to hardware is one of balancing personal resources, need, and practicality -- or at least it should be.  Even if you were to invest -- say $25,000 -- on whatever the latest 'n greatest is right now - your shining new system would be the hot ticket for about a year (maybe).

I've decided to stick to the $1500-$2000 price range for PC upgrades.  I'll use it for approx. 3 years -- and then I'll get another one.  Whatever price the intermediate-level 1000-core processor machines happen to be going for 3 years from now.  And I'll check the local Neighborhood Advertiser tabloid paper for any good, used 8-core machines that might be going for $50 at the time.

I have a Core 2 Duo machine with 4G's of RAM.  It was the hot ticket very, very recently.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

*I'll use it for approx. 3 years -- and then I'll get another one.

*Pretty much what I do too, I buy one with a view to having it for 3 years, 4 at a push but that doesn't happen often, it's usually at 3 years it's changed!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

My sentiments exactly, Xeonphonz!  My partner did basically the same thing back in the mid-90's - spending something like $8000 for the top of the line, hot off the silicon chip dual Intel Pentium III system.  Two or three years later, you'd be lucky to sell it for $1000.

For instance, look at the two computers being replaced by the one specced above.  A full tower 550W 2.66GHz Dual Xeon w/4GB and all sorts of bells and whistles.  A midtower AMD64 x2 4800+ w/4GB and some nice bells and whistles (a Linksys WMP54G specifically for Windows 64 bit and a Sony DRU-830A DVD+/-R/RW/RAM/DL/CD 18x drive).  Now the Dual Xeon system is about four years old and a bit dirty but works very well.  The other system is only two years old and I invested about $1000 to upgrade the processor, add 2GB, the WiFi, the DVD, 200GB drive).  At the time, these cost $3500 and $2400 total ($5900!).  Now, the Xeon sold for $400 and the other maybe for $600.

The moral of the story, children, is that hardware devalues so fast that it is better to get mid-range systems and update often - or very rarely.

ETA: It is true that these two systems could sell for more to the right people (on eBay or something) or more as components.  But I just want to sell them locally through my computer guy, so you gets what you gets.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - The moral of the story, children, is that hardware devalues so fast that it is better to get mid-range systems and update often - or very rarely.

 

Amen. :thumbupboth:

We can all break for lunch now (depending on your time zone). :biggrin:

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - Holy cow! Can current software make use of all those CPUs?

 

Most of high end software can...  Programs like Max etc...
I ran Max and Autocad on dual processor machines in late 90's.

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Quote - I ran Max and Autocad on dual processor machines in late 90's.

 

Machines which you could now probably pay the recycle place $15 to take them off of your hands for you.

We just threw a gigantic (and very heavy) circa-early 1990's digitizer away at my office.  It was all metal and glass -- well over 48"x36" -- and probably cost over $10,000 back in the day.  The thing was so heavy that it took about 3 men to throw it into the dumpster.  Along with a boxed-up original square Mac ($3500 new?), and a laser printer for the old Mac ($7000 new?).

Too bad that PC's aren't more like refrigerators.  You can buy one and still be using it just as well 20 years later.

If I invest $2000 on a new Cannondale Prophet (a type of mountain bike), the bike will still be useful to me 10 years from now.  The same cannot be said for my $2200 PC + costly peripherals -- which taken togehter cost about as much as the PC itself did.

What a waste, in sheer economic terms.  But I need / want it -- so I spend the resources to have it.  At least it won't be as much of a waste, from an investment standpoint, as it would have been for me to spend $10,000 on a system that I won't be able to give away 5 years from now.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Hey I have those stories too...like screaming with joy the day I paid $800 for an 80-Megabyte (sic) external hard drive to hook up to my "Fat Mac", which had cost $500 to upgrade from the original 128K RAM Macintosh purchased in May 1984, which at the time cost $3500 for a 9" non-color screen and had 128K RAM, no hard drive, one floppy and a dot-matrix Imagewriter.

But..........................................................

We should have gratitude. The urge to repurchase and free market competition are driving a stupendous increase in power on the desktop. It is worth it.

::::: Opera :::::

Save your old systems! I am. PoserPro network render is coming and may work across old Macs and PCs

OTOH, if  you're a guitarist, you pay top dollar for 1950's technology.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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Try buying a circa-1680's violin by a certain manufacturer 

I doubt that 1983-era Mac's will sell for the equivalent of millions of dollars 300 years from now, though.  But you never can tell -- stranger things have happened.

I wish that I still had my old GI Joe stuff from the 60's.......and the comic books.........not to mention my sister's Barbie stuff.

The moral?  Never throw ANYTHING away.  Keep all of your trash!

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I wonder if I could get anything for my Acorn Electron on ebay??

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

well there is some good news for some, but not if you had saved him all your life waiting for the day he'd be worth squillions (someone musta done it ) 

the original Evel keneval toy is available again!!! (with revin' thingy and fire hoop jump )

i think i was the only kid in the world that didn't have Evel Keneval, so damn you scalectrix and you "eagle eyes" action man, neither of you were as good as Evel Keneval,

i would of been good at putting him back together aswell with all my "operation" experience.

(that must be the first time i've made a post and stayed on topic)

The reason for that turnaround disparity is technological advancement.

Bikes don't really advance on any fast scale.  They may add nice shocks, better spoked rims, easier gear shifting, more advanced materials for weight and strength - but this is a mechanical device and innovations there are more on the order of decades.

Computers, alternatively, are at the bleeding edge of technology (they are literally working on so-called 'Quantum computers' and a just-received IEEE email talks about a means to read/write storage data without magnetic fields that would allow for 600 times the storage capacity per surface area).

Another difference here is that, unlike a refrigerator or bike, computers don't serve just a single function.  A refrigerator uses a well-known, efficient heat exchange technology to cool or freeze things.  A bike is a simple form of transport.  A computer (depending upon how far this is stretched) is used in everything.  You car has a computer, your household appliances have computers, jets fly and are guided by computers, satellites are big computers gathering and transmitting data.  They are used as real-time monitors, for communications, for entertainment, for business, for economics, for scientific study/modeling/prediction, for mathematical calculations, for automation, for robotics, and so on and so on ...  It is very hard to compare any other form of technology to this - it has changed the entire planet in just 50 years since the first vacuum tube, room fillers were doing artillery trajectories and bomb target calculations.  And one can say it has changed the solar system as our little probes with their computers whirl through its vastness or explore the surfaces of other system planets, moons, and assorted bodies.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

That's all true -- but it's still a bit of a downer that today's $3000 investment is worth half that amount next year -- and then worth zero (0) approx. 4 years later.

Pretty much any other "investment" of such a nature would be regarded as evidence of fiscal insanity on the part of the investor.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I love computers.  But I also recall having once heard a list of 'unintended consequences' for the modern world.

One item on the list:

**Computers have now made it possble to work 100% faster!
**
Unintended consequence:

Computers have generated 300% more work.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

The biggest ring-binder I have ever seen held the instruction manual for a piece of software called (I think) "Paperless Office".

*And one can say it has changed the solar system as our little probes with their computers whirl through its vastness or explore the surfaces of other system planets, moons, and assorted bodies.

*And then land on Mars at 20000 mph.   That one must have made a dent in the Solar System.

i think you are all missing the point here!!

that being that Evel Keneval is back in the shops!!!!

sheesh!!

talk about thread drift.

Quote - The biggest ring-binder I have ever seen held the instruction manual for a piece of software called (I think) "Paperless Office".

*And one can say it has changed the solar system as our little probes with their computers whirl through its vastness or explore the surfaces of other system planets, moons, and assorted bodies.

*And then land on Mars at 20000 mph.   That one must have made a dent in the Solar System.

 

Yes -- someday, it'll be possible for a magnificent $50,000,000,000 space station to be brought down into the atmosphere by the failure of a 50 cent capacitor.

sigh  The wonders of technology..........

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - That's all true -- but it's still a bit of a downer that today's $3000 investment is worth half that amount next year -- and then worth zero (0) approx. 4 years later.

Pretty much any other "investment" of such a nature would be regarded as evidence of fiscal insanity on the part of the investor.

What's needed is a form of trade-in policy - akin to cars.  Get a reasonable valued estimate for your computer towards a new one.  The company could then refurbish and resell for those who don't need the latest-greatest or donate them to schools and so on.  Blue-book for desktop/laptop computers, anyone? :)

And, yep, it is fiscal insanity.  If it weren't that computers are a business model, justification of such insanity (for games, for instance) would be, well, insane!

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

It wasn't technology that brought down the Mars orbitter at 'ramming speed'.  It was, eh hem, human error.  Someone didn't get the memo on the correct units to be used and calculations were done in one unit system when they should have been in another.  the wonders of humans... ;P

I pretty much run a real paperless office.  I don't print much and I don't store scores of binders full of notes - everything is done on the computer.  I do use 3x5 cards to list items to be done - which could realistically be done in the computer.  Books on the other hand, I have several hundred.  When they finally and faithfully put books on computers, I'll move to that and spare the trees.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Next time I switch out my signature, I was going to throw this helpful link in -- I'll do it now --

www.memoware.com 

All of the free ebooks that you can download.  I'm reading more and more often on my Palm.

I've got a gazillion scifi and fantasy paperbacks that I'll never read again.  The paper / pulp industry plants groves of fast-growing pines specifically for the purpose of creating them -- so that angle doesn't worry me.  But tons of ($3.50 for the old ones -- $7.95+ more recently) them collecting dust in boxes isn't my idea of an efficient use of storage space.

Carrying an entire library around in your pocket -- now that's a Wonder of Modern Technology.  For avid readers -- it can't be beat.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Unfortunately, I no longer own a PDA.  But most of my library consists of 'illustrative' textbooks and technical books.  That and about 100 of my books are strictly Japanese - many with kanji/kana.  I do have a nice extensive 'Japanese Martial Arts Dictionary' on CD though.  Although only one remains, I even had the original Japanese version of the 'How to draw Manga' series, right-to-left, kanji and everything. :)

One day, but for now the e-book medium is only good for purely text books.  PDF versions would be great so that you could read on a computer or laptop, illustrations, figures, and all.  IEEE has just shifted their magazines over to this format and are currently in an evaluation timeframe after which members must decide whether to stay with hardcopy or switch over to electronic (I'll go the latter).

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

how 'bout *this?*..;)  lovingly modeled and uvmapped in Wings..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

What is it?  Looks like an orange swirly thing to me.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

M-5. Render me Nurse Chapel in a Bikini with a Sword in a Temple.
....WORKING.....Nurse chapel is not needed. inserting Generic Kirk Love Interest of the Week....

Quote - What is it?  Looks like an orange swirly thing to me.

 

I think that's the pre-Hal super-computer from the episode of Classic Trek where Capt. Kirk is threatened with being replaced by the Infernal Machine.  It's the episode where the computer runs amok -- for which behavior the Star Fleet officials naturally blame Kirk (after they insisted on allowing the Big Computer to run the ship).  The computer's inventor goes crazy, too.  It's all standard scifi fare -- and the plot uses standard scifi reasoning.

After typing that, I took the time to google it -- the computer was called the M-5 (as hinted by Khai).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ultimate_Computer_(TOS_episode)

Any computer which is given independent decision-making capabilities will inevitably run amok & go on a rampage.  This is a standard and fully accepted principle which is taught to us by scifi movies & television shows.  And the corollary is taught to us, too: that you can defeat such a computerized menace only through acting like an unpredictable human & being illogical in your actions.  Such tactics will invariably confuse the computer & blow its circuits out.

Standard scifi reasoning -- all the way around.

So.....there's a serious danger in upgrading your computer to the Ultimate System, beyond the merely monetary.  Just when you least suspect it: the machine might take over your brain while you are asleep.  Anyone who's a scifi aficiondo will know this: and they will take steps to prepare a guard against it.  They might even yell at their PC -- threaten it a little.  That'll help to keep the machine in line & on its best behavior.

I've got the Palm OS version of Adobe Acrobat Reader.  It works -- although they haven't updated it in a few years.  I was able to successfully convert at least one of my Lightwave .pdf manuals (the one for Modeler) onto my Palm.  I'll likely convert the other manuals, too.  The results aren't perfect -- but it is most definitely usable.

I have a Palm T|X - which offers a nice, rotatable widescreen.  The technology is about 2-3 years old -- the device has 128MB internal memory.  But it's also got an SD memory expansion slot, WiFi connectivity and bluetooth.  I've used it for WiFi in restaurants, motels, etc..  It does a good job.  Even with displaying images.  The one thing that doesn't work so well is DivX video, as no one has developed this for the Palm OS.  There is a workaround, but I haven't needed it enough to try it yet.

So, yes -- you can get images for your books onto the Palm.  You can expand the images for better viewing by tapping on them, and panning around.  It's not ideal -- but it works.  Ideal image display would require a laptop or a notebook computer.  But that's not as easy to carry around in your pocket as a PDA.

I don't really care for smart phones.  It's like talking into a calculator.  IMO, smart phones are too big to be a good cell phone: and the screens on smart phones are too small to be a good PDA.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

If you put a lot of time into right brain tasks like art, textures or 3d point pushing, your eyes will be required and books are out of the question even though the verbal center of your brain is available for input. At these times, rather than a palm pilot, one might make use of a product such as 'Speak Aloud' that can convert any of the thousands of Project Gutenberg e-books into mp3s. My favorite text to speech voice is 'LH Michelle.' Though the timing is sometimes robotic and there is an accent, this synthesized voice does a good job of pacing a narrative, rising appropriately at question marks and pausing at the comas. The best volumes of the last century are freely available with no copyright restrictions and you can create your own audio books on very little disc space. Most mp3 players have a bookmark feature that is handy as you make your way through a 13-hour volume. In my opinion, these home made audio books are vastly preferable to the drone of a tv set during the endless hours of CG creation.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

All this talk of computers being an expensive throw away item...well the throw away, I can agree with...but the expensive, I'm afraid not. What has changed over the last 10 years, is that the consumer has access to cutting edge computer technology quite quickly, when compared to 10 years ago.  When was quad core technology developed? Well, you can get it already and only a couple of years after it was developed.
Price is on relative to how much you earn and how much your living depends on it.
I think £3000 on an 8 core Mac is a bargain when I can get 6 x faster processing speed than I could with my previous machine.

If you want real out there cutting edge stuff, imagine the CPU bing the whole computer itself....using the atoms that make up the computer to do the processing. That is beyond Sci-Fi and being researched and developed right now.

 

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--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Quote - Price is on relative to how much you earn and how much your living depends on it.

Sure -- so long as the boss is paying for it: money is no object!

It used to be that my PC equipment at home was nothing more than an expensive toy -- and the PC served no other purpose than for games & for off-hours Poser 4.  Well -- my home PC equipment has now evolved into a different animal altogether -- it's used for pure business purposes around 80% or more of the time.

And, yeah -- with business purposes: all of the equipment, software, etc. becomes a legitimate tax write off.  So from a fiscal point of view: it's all a balancing act.

I'm still not going to invest $15,000 in a truly cutting-edge system that won't be worth a plug nickel in 36months.

I almost never play PC games anymore.  Although I will play solitaire or other games on my Palm during those rare times when I have nothing better to do.

And yes -- I have a couple of co-workers who walk around all day with .mp3 players dangling around their necks & headphones semi-permanently clamped to their heads -- bumping into walls, etc..  They listen to audio books all of the time.  Personally, I tend to listen to talk radio during the day.  Rush Limbaugh -- who'd have thunk it...............?

You Brits just don't know what you are missing with American conservative talk radio.  You ought to listen over the internet.  Get educated. :sneaky:

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1. My original 128K Mac system cost $3500. Bang for buck continues to accellerate.
2. cars cost $25,000. They depreciate nearly as fast as PCs. But they don't get better.

:: og ::

Oh, I dunno -- a 1963 Corvette in good condition is worth a decent amount of money.  Pretty much any 1963 model car in good condition would be worth something.

But come to think of it: a 1963-era computer might be worth something as a museum piece.  So maybe you should hang onto that old Amiga for the next 50 years or so -- you might be able to sell it for a few hundred then.

I certainly agree that today's computers provide you with more value for the money than PC's ten years ago did.  That's one thing that seems to be rapidly improving.  Kind of like the original VCR's cost $1200 -- you can now pick up a decent DVD player/recorder for less than $100.  I don't see fair-to-good PC's ever selling for that cheap, though.

And I still don't see buying at the top end of whatever's current as being a good investment........unless if you are someone to whom $20,000 is mere lunch money.  Then it might not matter.

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i don't buy at the top, either.

ok specs for the ultimate CG Workstation..

Dec (10)  FTL Optical Cores running at 60 teraFLOPS per Core
200 Terrabytes of Holographic RAM
Direct Neural Interface
Desktop FABBER with Molecular Resolution for Output of 3D Models.

all of which would be obselete soon as you take it out of the shipping containers....

Cray XMT.  I win.  The end. :biggrin:

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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The only reason why I say the things that I've said is because I've known people to entangle themselves in debt so that they could buy something that wasn't worth anything 3 or 4 years later.  Or even faster than that, in some cases.

Sure -- if someone is heavy on the personal resource end of the equation: then there might not be any issue at all involved in purchasing the current Ferrari of computers.  But for the vast majority of the poplulation -- an expenditure of many 1000's of dollars needs to be considered carefully.  Or at least it should be.  If I can get what I need for $2000, then $10,000 is additional money spent for nothin' but (temporary) braggin' rights.  Better to hang onto the money, and then buy another $2000 machine in 3 years.

But to each their own -- everyone can do as they like.  Even if doing it is fiscally foolish behavior in some cases.

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Quote - You Brits just don't know what you are missing with American conservative talk radio.  You ought to listen over the internet.  Get educated. :sneaky:

I hope that was meant tongue in cheek...if you going to talk about being educated, let me just remind you that as a nation you voted Bush in for a second term ;0)
Meanwhile I think I will just continue to buy off DAZ (or any online company that allows me to purchase in $'s) and thank the lord that the US economy is crap. I can get even more bang for my buck, than you can lol!

 

Website: The 3D Scene - Returning Soon!

Twitter: Follow @the3dscene

YouTube Channel

--------------- A life?! Cool!! Where do I download one of those?---------------

Ain't that the truth.  I didn't vote for 'Yee-harh' Bush in either election.  I didn't vote for a single Republican in the Congressional elections.  I didn't fall for the 'Saddam is Bin Laden's best mate' scam and warned of the impending scenario that now exists in Iraq even before Powell went to the U.N..  Some fools will never learn.  And the funniest part is that the 'people' who keep supporting this idiocy are the exact people from whom the worst toll is being extracted: taxes, armed force servitude, the worst debt in the history of the planet (not even Rome could take so much surplus and squander it so quickly).

But I digress...

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Quote - I hope that was meant tongue in cheek...

Of course it was. 

Quote - if you going to talk about being educated, let me just remind you that as a nation you voted Bush in for a second term ;0)
Meanwhile I think I will just continue to buy off DAZ (or any online company that allows me to purchase in $'s) and thank the lord that the US economy is crap. I can get even more bang for my buck, than you can lol!

 

Much as I'd love to debate politics and the state of the US economy (which is actually very good -- outside of media-generated Chicken Little syndromes -- the sky is always falling.  Even when it isn't.) -- they don't allow political debate here.  And I've more-or-less given up debating politics online as a bad job -- it doesn't pay anything.  But I'm not above the occasional jab to the ribs.  It's a rude habit of mine.

You really ought to be listening to Rush.......:biggrin:

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oh Rush... I love LOVE Rush!

you heard their latest Album Snakes & Arrows? best they've done since Presto

Those guys are still in business....?

I'll betcha that they aren't as rich as that other Rush.........  He can even afford to buy 60 iPhones, and then give them away to his employees and friends!

He's even got several of the latest, highest-end Macs at his various haunts!  And I imagine that he can afford them, too.

How well the economy is doing largely depends upon where you stand.  For example: John Kerry's economy is doing great: marry it, and then you've got it.  Maybe.

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Rush = Ayn Rand and more power to them.

 

Quote - Those guys are still in business....?

and still going strong....

I once heard Barry Goldwater mention the fact that Lyndon Johnson was virtually penniless when Johnson first came to Washington & went into the Congress.  But by the time that Johnson left the Congress for the White House a few years later -- he was a multi-millionaire.

It's always fascinated me how it's possible to do that on a Congressman's salary.

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LBJ sold his UNIVAC system for 2.4 Million while in office, that's how.

::::: attempting to stay remotly OnTopic :::::

UNIVAC, eh?  I just knew that computers were a good investment........

Maybe I can find somebody who'll buy mine for 2.4 million.

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I also have a Kaypro circa 1983, but it only has 64K RAM

My first experience with a PC was on an Apple IIe.  Although I worked on a $35,000,000 IBM 370 mainframe before that -- a machine which didn't have the capabilities that the average Wal-Mart purchased PC does now.

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"or donate them to schools" Noooo, don't give our children the junk of the past. Computers in schools should be the very best, especially for the youngest students. And renewed regularly, they need the very best tools, both for learning and to develop high order thinking skills, aging PCs don't deliver those. Our schools are the most important places on earth, the hope of the future is in our children and we must give them every advantage we can.

Another perspective:  Children are an alternate food source!  Don't spend money on public computers for schools, spend it on athletics programs to beef them up!

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"Noooo, don't give our children the junk of the past. Computers in schools should be the very best, especially for the youngest students. And renewed regularly, they need the very best tools, both for learning and to develop high order thinking skills, aging PCs don't deliver those."

So a 1.8 GHZ Mac G5 or equivalent Dell workstation that has been declared "Obsolete" by the  righteous Pontificators of the "bleeding edge" is going to impede my 12 year Old son's ability to develop his "thinking skills"???

Faster & multicore  UBER CPU's have NOTHING to do with critical thinking
and learning. and never have

Is anyone really getting "smarter" or even more creative because of faster computers ???

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I am.  I have more time to read. ;P

Donate them to schools only because our educational system is in ruins and can't even afford teachers and adequate classroom size.  Don't talk to me about it - talk to the bunglers running this country (into the ground).

And I'm sorry, the economy is really great if you have stocks and bonds, are a CEO or athlete.  The rest of us are in debt five miles over our eyeballs, work 80/week, and still pay more taxes than the aforementioned.  Oh, and we're paying twice as much for gasoline and diesel and much higher prices for necessities (food, clothes, utilities) than we did a few years ago to compound the issue.

Just because the stock market is at 13000+ doesn't reflect a sound economy.  Someone is mentioning a possible recession not unlike the great depression within a few years.  The recent lowering of interest rates may (may) help to stem this.  I foresee a Bush-Rep induced economical crash.  Remember, if the US (the largest consumer on the planet) goes, they all go.  50000000 eu for a loaf of bread, anybody? ;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

shrug

That's the thing about prophets of doom.  Sooner or later they are bound to be right.  Just keep predicting disaster long enough -- and when it happens eventually -- then it can be blamed on whoever the bogeyman happens to be at the time.

I've been hearing such doom-saying speculation for a very long time now.  I suppose that whenever the next worldwide economic upheaval occurs (which it inevitably will) -- then the people who are around at that time can blame Bush for it.  After all: he steered a hurricane to New Orleans -- so he's clearly capable of destroying the worldwide economy, too.  Even many years after the fact.

Don't worry: we might get our taxes raised drastically a couple of years from now -- which will do wonders for the economy.  High taxes always do.

.........there's much more to say -- but this is getting dangerously close to politcal debate.  And I have V4's that need to be rendered.

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Quote - I am.  I have more time to read. ;P

 

Actually -- I used to have a lot more time to read back in the days when regens in AutoCAD took a long time to do.  And when renders went on for many minutes -- or hours.  Keep a novel next to your computer.

Most of the time: you can't do that now.

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I used to read more when I wasn't using computers as much. :) But with a faster computer, I can actually get things done faster.  Renders that took two hours a few years ago now take minutes which means that a book and I can go elsewhere when done.  Builds are so fast that I can't get up before they are done - even with sixty source files and five builds.  CodeWarrior on the other hand, with four builds, allows me time to stretch, make coffee, read 'War and Peace'.  It is aggretiously slow.  Xcode is much faster, but it stubbornly recompiles the API lib when switching projects (218 sources) which allows for coffee and stretch on ocassion.

I just try not to make that an excuse to do more on the computer - always difficult as we know.  Other than technical references, I like to read away from the computer.  If at the computer, usually with the monitor off for no distractions.  For instance, and not exactly difficult reading other than the UK slang, it was a quick day and a half to read Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows.  With that, computer, what computer? :D

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Rush has a deal that gives him approximately a quarter-billion dollars a  year (not making this up). With all that money, who needs Oxycontin?...;) I dunno..I alternate with him, Steph Miller, Ed  "I know nothing" Schulz, and Randy Rhoads (sp? and not the dead guitar player..;) , I just think that a Conservative with a sense of humor is rare enough to observe...;) j/k..

All this political talk is making me nostalgic for the C&D, and OT forums..;)

The ultimate computer for rendering  would be the Holodeck, with teraquads of info..;) Vulcan Love slave indeed...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

There was a time a couple of decades ago when I was able to spend an entire Saturday doing nothing but reading for hours upon hours -- and not even realize that the time was gone.  But I was single, my office hours ended at 5:00 in the afternoon, and I had few outside interests.

Nowadays -- reading usually consists of snatching the time between the demands on my time from this source and the demands on my time from that source and the demands on my time from the other source.  I might get the chance to read for a few minutes just before bed, or at other times.  And I look forward to those moments.  I wish that sleeping wasn't a necessity.  Ebooks on the Palm helps enormously with this situation.

Most days, I am able to spend time in the forums.  But that's because I'm chained to a computer for approx. 10-12 hours / day.

Quote - I just think that a Conservative with a sense of humor is rare enough to observe...;)

Actually, in my experience it's been the other way around.

((I started to type in more details, and then stopped myself.  This isn't C&D.  ))

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That's why I attempt to keep the number of distractions down.  No games.  It was fun when there was time and more energy on my part.  No wasting time at seven hundred forums and websites and IMing and texting and MySpacingOut.  You could spend your entire life on the internet - and twice people have died doing it for like three days straight.  It is not a good thing, just a good thing for when it is needed.  There are a bunch of forums that are visited every day because they are crucial to what I do and my business.  And that's about it.  It is rare for me just to plonk around on the net aimlessly - not worth it.

Some people may be like, "Well you sure spend a lotta time typing in these forums." Yup.  I can type at about 60-80 wpm so it's not a big consumption. :)  I do hate 30 page topics though when you are new to it - it could take hours to read through them and I usually just skim or give up.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

Yeah -- you are right about that.  I'm not big on 30-page+ threads anymore.  I do virtually the same as you -- if the topic of the thread holds any interest for me.

I get the chance to wander aimlessly on the internet mostly around this time of night -- just before sleep (it's after 2AM here).  Occasionally there's an interesting video on Youtube.......or an interesting news article linked on Drudge.  Or an interesting column at www.townhall.com.  

Fortunately, my work allows me to cruise the forums here on a regular basis.  Plus -- like you -- there are a number of websites that I visit nearly every day.  The more heavily that I'm getting into 3D, the more I'm getting real work out of it -- above and beyond my day job.  3D allows me to work from home.  And that's worth a lot.

Yes -- the computer has made it possible to increase the workload well beyond what would once have been considered to be "normal hours".  I haven't done 'normal' in years.  In fact: I don't believe that I ever was normal (whatever that means). 

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Sometimes I copy and paste the really long threads into 'Speak Aloud' and listen while I get on with my work. If only I could figure out how to give each participant his or her own unique droid voice...

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Quote - oh Rush... I love LOVE Rush!

you heard their latest Album Snakes & Arrows? best they've done since Presto

Anything but the album before it... blecch.

Presto I still treasure a lot (esp. [i]Available Light[/i] and [i]Scars[/i]).

Quote - So a 1.8 GHZ Mac G5 or equivalent Dell workstation that has been declared "Obsolete" by the  righteous Pontificators of the "bleeding edge" is going to impede my 12 year Old son's ability to develop his "thinking skills"???

Heh - I still happily use a dual 1.8 GHz PowerMac, thanks much. It happily runs any app that Poserdom can throw at it without trouble as well.

Okay - as a guy who used to have to receive school donations, let me clue y'all in:

• If it's only a couple of years old, can run the apps in the curricula, and isn't some cheap-arsed pile of eMachines crap, cool. I'd happily take it. Macs can stretch back to roughly 4-5 years old w/o too much hassle, while PC's can go back about 3 years or so.

• If it's really old, broken, incomplete, or otherwise unusable in the class, don't bother. I once had a bank donate an old IBM RS-6000 to us... they neglected to mention that it was an ancient first-gen model at the time, was the size of a typical US refrigerator (i.e. HUGE), weighed 850lbs, required 220VAC to power up, was lucky to get 10Mb/sec on the network, and had the approximate 'oomph of a Pentium I @ 90MHz (the classroom was full of P4m's and the servers bore 3GHz P4 Xeons). It was utterly useless (its scrap value was ab't $75), but the bank was able to write off their original purchase price on taxes (approx. $60k) as a charitable donation.

Quote - Donate them to schools only because our educational system is in ruins and can't even afford teachers and adequate classroom size.  Don't talk to me about it - talk to the bunglers running this country (into the ground).

Schools are controlled by localities, not national governments. They get (on average) shedloads of cash in most areas - from local, state, and federal funding. However, that money evaporates rather quickly in the morass of poor management decisions, top-heavy and bloated bureaucracies, junkets, and boondoggles that would stagger your mind. Every contractor knows the district has a blank check at the start of each fiscal year, and sets (read: inflates the hell out of) their bids to match it. I (and the state of Utah in a case a couple of years back) seen textbook budgets evaporate in deliberate and outright fraud, then watch as district management quickly plays a roundabout game of 'cover your buddy's arse' when time comes to assign blame. I have seen entire schools scrambling and fighting to grab as many students as they can due to a shortage of head-count (as a teacher, if you don't have the head-count, you don't have a job).

I have seen teachers' unions demand incerases and raises that would make you blush with envy. I have seen district administrators give themselves (and their underlings) raises that would make Congress look fiscally responsible by comparison. Then they go trotting out the "but.. but... it's for the chilluns!" argument when the legislature asks WTF happened to all the money they got at the beginning of the fiscal year.

Compare and contrast this with privately owned charter or "voucher" schools - efficient, cost-concious, higher academic standards [i]and performance[/i], and parents literally fight tooth and nail to get their kids into one whenever an opening is available.

--

whew - sorry, had to let that one out. Felt good, actually.

Anyway, don't donate 'em unless they're actually worth a damn. Thx.

/P

Hmmmm......interesting.  Don't know many details yet -- but I'm hearing that there's a run on the banks going on in Britain right now.  This story is not being widely reported in this country (US).

http://www.guardian.co.uk/frontpage/story/0,,2171546,00.html

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/tol/business/industry_sectors/banking_and_finance/article2457009.ece

((This is a sidenote concerning posts earlier in this thread.))

BTW - the sub-prime loan thing is a perfect example of just how two-faced government policy can be.  For 20 years or more, the government's official line has been to jump on the banks for being socially prejudiced & not providing housing loans to low-income people in the inner cities, etc..  And now.........it's those very loans that are being defaulted on -- so the government is (of course) jumping on the banks over the issue of how DARE they have made such risky loans in the first place?

It's all GWB's fault.  He underwrote them all.  Personally.

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*Hmmmm......interesting.  Don't know many details yet -- but I'm hearing that there's a run on the banks going on in Britain right now.  This story is not being widely reported in this country (US).

*erm thats 3 days old (your first link) and 6 days old (your second one) they are a little out of date...  and its bank (singular) just Northern Rock has been affected... no other banks have had runs on them....

Quote - *Hmmmm......interesting.  Don't know many details yet -- but I'm hearing that there's a run on the banks going on in Britain right now.  This story is not being widely reported in this country (US).

*erm thats 3 days old (your first link) and 6 days old (your second one) they are a little out of date...  and its bank (singular) just Northern Rock has been affected... no other banks have had runs on them....

 

shrug

Like I said -- I don't know all of the details.  It's just an interesting story to note.

The point being that bad things happen.  Anywhere and at any time.  Often: no one can forsee such events, or stop them from occuring.  But it's still human nature to look for a scapegoat to blame whenever bad stuff (such as natural disasters) appears on the horizon.

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