Okay... I never had this issue until I upgraded from Poser5 to Poser6. One of the characters that I tend to do a lot of renderings for uses the cyber arm from Daz. Those are procedural textures, and Poser5 never had a problem rendering them. Rendered beautifully.

However... as soon as I went from 5 to 6, and now even in 7, I find that when rendering the arm, no matter what I seem to do, it usually comes out over-exposed and cartoonish in appearance. Sometimes it's just little parts of it, other times it's like the image I'm working on at the moment and almost the entire arm is doing it.

I know it's lighting-related somehow, as i've run into the same problem with a lot of procedurals and it seems to be somewhat related to the alternate specular from what i can tell. Usually if I disconnect the alternate specular nodes the problem stops and goes away.

However.... that doesn't seem to work with this arm. -_-; Does anyone have any ideas what causes this or how to fix it? Image is on the link for an example of what I'm talking about. You can't possibly miss it. LOL!!

http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs20/f/2007/295/5/3/GRRRRRRRR_by_BlueDragoness.jpg

~ Seliah

What are your render settings and your light setup?  I have these and I haven't had a problem with the render quality in Poser 6.

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change ambient and alternate_diffuse to 0.

Not sure what you mean. Light settings change from one image to another - I've had other items do the same thing under totally different lighting settings and conditions as well. I'm using 3 standard spotlights. I'm not using AO or IBL or anything fancy.

Render settings - doesn't seem to matter, either. At the moment I'm rendering via the Poser4 render engine (my pc HATES firefly - it blows up on me frequently). Anti-Alias, Use Bump Maps, Use Texture Maps and Cast Shadows are all checked. Ignore Shader Trees is NOT checked.

This has happened to me with the Firefly engine as well, so I know it's not a P4 engine-only thing. I'm currently using Poser7. I've got other examples, and it only seems to ocurr with prcedural textures that are from Poser5 or Poser6 natively...

~ Seliah

Quote - change ambient and alternate_diffuse to 0.

Thanks - will try that...

~ Seliah

Quote - change ambient and alternate_diffuse to 0.

Tried it - no difference.   -_-;

could you post a screenshot of your material room setup?

disconnect any nodes from the specular and alternate specular channels and set 'em both to 0?

Aye.. here you go...

http://www.childeoffyre.com/matsetup_cyberarmp7.jpg

~ seliah

Quote - disconnect any nodes from the specular and alternate specular channels and set 'em both to 0?

Already did that - see the screenshot posted in previous message... -_-

~ seliah

uncheck reflection_lite_mult? p.s. sum of diffuse + specular + trans + reflection should = 1.0 IMVHO but YMMV.

Quote - uncheck reflection_lite_mult? p.s. sum of diffuse + specular + trans + reflection should = 1.0 IMVHO but YMMV.

Nope - no good - no difference.

~ seliah

ya mean it's still glowing with diffuse = 0? (diffuse + spec + trans + refl > 0 means it will appear to glow)

Quote - ya mean it's still glowing with diffuse = 0? (diffuse + spec + trans + refl > 0 means it will appear to glow)

 

Yes, that's exactly what I mean. It's still glowing.

Your shader looks ok. You said this started happening after P5. That's a clue, but not a certainty, that it might have something to do with looking at the "wrong" or "back" side of a polygon. P6 and P7 handle them differently than P5 and the issue comes up about once every ten days in this forum, mostly to do with hair. 

Perhaps the item has reversed normals?

Try enabling Normals_Forward on all the materials of the item.

Failing that, disconnect your Sphere_Map on the reflection and render again to see if it has something to do with that. I can't imagine how the simple bump setup or the diffuse color could produce bright RED like that. But if the normals are somehow goofy, this will have a huge impact on the "reflection" lookup via the Sphere_Map.

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yeah, maybe P7 screws things up if bump is negative. OP could also switch to displacement or gradient bump.

Re reversing the normals -- where do I find that to change it? Sorry, I used Poser4 almost until the point at which 6 came out, and used 5 until well after 7 came out, lol. I'm still not too sure about some of the more advanced features and stuff.

~ Seliah

normals_forward at bottom of channels list.

Seliah,

You used different words in your last question - "reversing the normals" - that is something you can do with Poser but that's not what I was suggesting.

We're talking about the "Normals_Forward" checkbox in the root node of a shader (advanced material room). When you enable that option, it makes Poser believe that polygons always "face" the camera. In other words, it will automatically reverse just the ones that need reversing. This is a lot easier than actually using another tool to pick and choose individual polygons and reverse the normals on them.

However, we don't even know yet if that is the problem. It's just a guess, which you need to confirm for us. Go into the materials of the offending item and make sure that the Normals_Forward option is checked for every material zone. Then render. 

You only need to do this for the busted stuff. The other props and figures that are not showing an issue can be ignored for the moment.

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Also, rather than spend a lot of time waiting for renders of the whole scene, you should hide everything else so the render can go faster while you try different things.

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Hello,

Thanks for the clarification. I've tried it, with no difference. This is really weird. LOL i've run into a lot of render issues in my five years playing with this stuff, but this one is really an odd one! LOL

~ Seliah

Okay - latest render finished - didn't do anything material-wise. I swear it's lighting related... switched to one of the IBL settings and rendered and it's rendering fine now. o.O But as soon as I go to using standard infinite or spot lights it renders exposed like that. Weird....

I'm making a total guess here (I don't have the product, and have P6, not P7), but...

Are you sure you need a Texture_Strength of 1.5 for your reflection map?
Increasing the texture strength above 1.0 can produce weird colour effects. I'm not sure if that's true for a grey-scale image, but its worth trying a quick render with T_S set to 1.0.

Using IBL will tend to wash out/flatten the colours, so that maybe why it looked better.

Or, of course (and more likely), it has nothing to do with anything.

Cheers,
Diolma

Quote - I'm making a total guess here (I don't have the product, and have P6, not P7), but...

Are you sure you need a Texture_Strength of 1.5 for your reflection map?
Increasing the texture strength above 1.0 can produce weird colour effects. I'm not sure if that's true for a grey-scale image, but its worth trying a quick render with T_S set to 1.0.

Using IBL will tend to wash out/flatten the colours, so that maybe why it looked better.

Or, of course (and more likely), it has nothing to do with anything.

Cheers,
Diolma

 

It's worth a try!! LOL I'll give it a try and see what happens! ^_^

Alright.. nope, nada.

Funny thing is.. the texture strength for the reflection map; this works in the Firefly renderer, lowering the strength of the reflection map, though it does not work in the Poser4 renderer. This would be fine except that my machine REALLY doesn't like the Firefly render engine (it chokes a LOT on it for just simple scenes). 

Also I actually DONT like the quality of renders it puts out. It destroys bump mapping and displacement mapping every time I use it. Everything comes out flat and blah-looking, as if it's all baby-smoothe. (yes I've gone and set all the textures to 'none' instead of 'quality' and turned off texture filtering, lowered the min shading rate, etc... doesn't make a darn bit of difference)

Sooo.. I'd say your solution, Diolma, is a partial success. It DOES work for the Firefly engine, but not the Poser4 render engine. LOL Oh well. I guess I can render a version in each and layer for all but the arm to get my bump/discplacement working... LOL. Better than nothing, I guess! LOL!!

~ Seliah

Well, I settled on the mix - I wound up rendering in Firefly to avoid the over-exposure of the arm and just kind of layering a P4 render engine version over it to get some of the other details the way I wanted them to look.

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1547067&member

That's what it finally looks like - I just wish I didn't have to render the thing twice in two different render engines to get what I want. Seems kind of redundant, and overall I'm just NOT very impressed with the Firefly render engine at all.

~ Seliah

> Quote - Also I actually DONT like the quality of renders it puts out. It destroys bump mapping and displacement mapping every time I use it. Everything comes out flat and blah-looking, as if it's all baby-smoothe.

ok, maybe now you want to post your render settings.  because displacement didn't exist in P4, so it certainly renders just fine in Firefly in general.  as do bump maps. 

oh, and that's tiny bump no displacement, strong bump, strong bump and strong displacement.

True, displacement didn't exist in P4, yet Firefly seems to smooth every texture it renders, at least on my machine. Including textures that have bump map (not displacement) applied. Example of this... :

Firefly Render (poser 7) :
http://fc03.deviantart.com/fs20/f/2007/229/5/3/meh2_by_BlueDragoness.jpg

P4 Engine Render (poser 7) :
http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs20/f/2007/229/5/a/meh_by_BlueDragoness.jpg

(Look at the yello crest, and the metal up between the pauldrons and breastplate - it's most obvious there.)

Render Settings.......

Firefly :
Use Displacement Maps : Yes
All Else Default on the 'Automatic' settings.

My 'manual' settings for Firely are :
Cast Shadows : Yes
Ray Tracing : Yes
Min Shading Rate : 0.2
Raytrace Bounces : 2 (Default setting)
Irradiance Cacheing : 50 (no clue what this does - haven't changed it - that's default)
Pixel Samples : 3
Max Bucket Size : 64
Use Displacement Maps : Yes

My Poser4 Render Settings (also in Poser7) :
Anti-Alias : Yes
Use Bump Maps : Yes
Cast Shadows : Yes
Use Texture Maps : Yes
Ignore Shader Trees : No

Other examples of the 'glowing' problem with procedural textures ...

Awful Soul's Skorpio Rising :
http://fc02.deviantart.com/fs17/f/2007/189/3/a/blegh__don__t_ask__by_BlueDragoness.jpg

RDNA's procedurals (the floor/background) :
http://fc01.deviantart.com/fs16/f/2007/176/2/e/Nishikihebi_by_BlueDragoness.jpg

Soooo.... it's not just the arm.. annnnd... this didn't happen with these textures until Poser7. Poser5/6 render them fine. LOL Should be noted that I did not change any of the material settings on the above two links (the glowing textures) - those are how the vendors made them and how they render in Poser7. -_-

Aanyway. I'ma hush up as there just doesn't seem to be a solution or explanation to this. -_-;

~seliah

oh, no, i'm sure there's a solution and explanation.  we just haven't found them yet.  though you might want to actually post a screen grab, just to be certain all the relevant info is there.  tips: you can actually just attach an image to a forum post, as long as it's small enough kB wise.  it'll be much easier to see everything at once that way.  also, the earth and chain icon is for making active links.

just out of curiousity, when you say fine in p5/p6, do you mean in Firefly?

Well.. what do you need screen shots of? The render settings, I assume?

And noted on the links - LOL - sorry. I'm used to forums that automatically insert the hyperlink code when a link is typed into the post. ^_^

I'm sure there's a solution somewhere. But... I haven't seen anyone else report this problem with the exposure vs. procedurals, so I'm wondering if maybe I'm the only one running into it...

~ Seliah

Quote - just out of curiousity, when you say fine in p5/p6, do you mean in Firefly?

Nein - they rendered fine in P5/P6 using BOTH Firefly AND the P4 render engines.

~ Seliah

oh, no, don't apologize.  i figured i'd say because it wasn't the most obvious thing. 

there's got to be a reason for the problem, though, so don't give up hope!

I'm there is, somewhere... I just have no clue what it is, and thus far no one's been able to figure it out, either! LOL It wouldn't be a big deal normally, buuuuuuut... the one item (the arm) I use a LOT as I do a LOT of renders of that one character of mine... chuckles So it's kind of a headache as I have to rather consistently fight with this particular problem. ^_^

~ seliah

A bit more on this..

This screenshot was rendered with the P4 engine, light intensity 100%. IBL light. (those same settings in Firefly do render the arm fine)

And this one was rendered in P4 engine, having set the light intensity down to 25%.

--With IBL setup in FIREFLY, it renders fine.

--With point lights, it renders just like this - using Firefly or the P4 render engine.

--Spotlights - renders like this using either Firefly or P4 render engine.

--Infinite lights - same thing, renders just like this whether in Firefly or the P4 render engine.

--The only way I've found to control the arm being overexposed IS to use an IBL light and render it in Firefly.

• seliah

Clue - "only way I've found to control the arm being overexposed is to use an IBL"

OK so what's different about IBL? It does not produce any "specular" effect. All the specular nodes produce black - nada - zero - from an IBL.

Could you show us a screen shot of the material setting for the part that is wonky?

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Bagginsbill,

The entire arm is 'wonky' when rendered except in the IBL. However, if it was the specular, then why would it render FINE in Firefly with IBL, but NOT render fine in P4 with IBL? Does the P4 engine negate aspects of the IBL lighting style?

As far as screenshots... I've got a screenshot posted earlier int his thread with the material settings. It would still apply with the only changes to it being that I reduced the texture strength of the reflection map from 1.5 down to 1.0 and I checked the boxes for all the materials on that arm for 'Normals Forward'.

Repost of link to screenshot is here :
www.childeoffyre.com/matsetup_cyberarmp7.jpg

Sorry - i scanned back again looking for a picture, and forgot that you linked it instead of including it. You really should avail yourself of the forum's ability to include stuff like this:

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Disconnect the Reflection stuff - show me what you get.

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I notice you have Reflection_Lite_Mult turned on. This is the default setting and everybody leaves it and it is MONUMENTALLY USELESS and troublesome.

I can't tell you how many times this has been an issue.

This multiplies reflections with the amount of light hitting your object. There is no basis in reality for this effect. If I shine a flashlight on your face, does the sky reflected in your eyes get brighter? No it does not. Anyway....

I'm worried that your intensely bright light, multiplied with the reflection image in the sphere_map, is resulting in blowout.

I really don't like this Sphere_Map business either. It's 2007. We should always use real environments and use real reflection.

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You know, I've been wondering for a long time what the Reflection Lite Mult was -- I've never messed with it either. guilty lol But I had no clue what it did. There's still a LOT in P7 that I've NO clue what it does yet. I cut my poser baby teeth on Poser4... and the Generation 2's. laughs

I'll do a render with the Lite Mult turned off and another with the reflection map stuff disconnected and let you know....

As far as the sphere mapping -- these are the textures the arm came with when I bought the product. Making procedural textures is still way over my head, about my extent of procedural altering is simple stuff like base colour changes... LOL...

I'll post up the needed renders - give me a couple minutes. :)

~ seliah

Okay - this is rendered as following :

Reflection Lite Multi : Off
Poser 4 Render Engine (using Poser 7)
IBL Light, 100% intensity (posted screen up above of 25% intensity result)

Doing the one now with disconnecting the reflection map nodes from the root.

Ya know, those images look hugely like toon or sketch renders to me.

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Yep, I know it... but I'm NOT using the toon or sketch render options! LOL

• seliah

okay...here's the next one.

P4 Engine (Poser7)
Reflection Lite Multi : Off
Reflection Maps : Disconnected Nodes

[Edit : Disconnected Reflection Maps from the main arm base, but NOT the various little details.]

procedural shaders and IBL dont work with the P4 engine the P4 engine can only handle very basic shader settings.

Thanks. Explains that, then. ^_^

Quote - True, displacement didn't exist in P4, yet Firefly seems to smooth every texture it renders, at least on my machine. Including textures that have bump map (not displacement) applied. Example of this... :

That is because texture filtering in on by default in 7, a very irritating feature, whatever moron thought of this should be slapped.

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Quote - That is because texture filtering in on by default in 7, a very irritating feature, whatever moron thought of this should be slapped.

 

Er... even after manually setting each material's texture filtering to 'none', Firefly still smoothes it all out... -_-;

I do agree with the sentiment, though! It's one of the most idiotic things I've seen done... LOL.

~ Seliah

could you post a screenshot of your render settings?  and also show how this looks rendered in Firefly, with another screenshot of settings?  the P4 render engine was very old, and i think it hasn't been quite what's actually  used in "Poser 4" renders since Poser 6.  i say that based on what could be a faulty memory of some posts, not so much my own experience, but i'm pretty sure others have witnessed discrepancies that show it doesn't actually duplicate P4/PPP rendering exactly.

Aye... I THINK I found the problem, actually...

The default procedurals connect a reflection map (the sphere) to the reflection map node. They also set the Reflection Value to 1.000. However, the Reflection map is not connected to the Reflection Value node at all. So we have a map connected to map node, a value of 1.000 set to the value node, with no reflection map connected to it.

I have to test this yet - but the initial render after connecting the silly reflection map up to the Reflection Value node thus far shows none of that over-exposure of the procedurals. Give me a minute here and I'll double check. But I think this is the cause... o.O

~ Seliah

Ja. Confirmed. Leaving all default settings to the product's procedurals 'as is', the only thing I changed this time around was connecting the silly reflection map to the Reflection Value node, and it's rendering the way it should, now. o.O Weird. Very, very weird. 

~ Seliah

Umm - not disputing the results, but it not generally necessary to connect the reflection to both the color and the value. The value is simply multiplied with the color. When you connect both, you are multiplying the reflection color with a gray-scale copy of itself. This effectively darkens anything that is below 1 and brightens anything that is above 1. (You could only get above 1 if you were using an HDR image.)

Anyway, it seems that the sum of the reflections and the other lighting was way more than 1, resulting in color clamping. You could also simply type .5 or .3 or something in the Reflection_Value to decrease the reflection brightness.

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Quote - Umm - not disputing the results, but it not generally necessary to connect the reflection to both the color and the value. The value is simply multiplied with the color. When you connect both, you are multiplying the reflection color with a gray-scale copy of itself. This effectively darkens anything that is below 1 and brightens anything that is above 1. (You could only get above 1 if you were using an HDR image.)

Anyway, it seems that the sum of the reflections and the other lighting was way more than 1, resulting in color clamping. You could also simply type .5 or .3 or something in the Reflection_Value to decrease the reflection brightness.

 

You know, that much I did know already... that's why I found it so blasted WEIRD. o.O But I've opened brand new scenes, tested it under spotlight, infinite, point, etc... I don't get it! I don't know why it would be the solution, but... O.o It seems to be... very, very, very ODD. LOL