Read all about it.

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Seems like this sword1 person is going over there intentionally stirring up much more shit than is really called for - a big minus against that person is they obviously registered on that forum specifically to stir up said shit.  A simple fact:  Poser is a bottom-feeder app.  It does many things, but always on the low end of quality - which is not a complaint really, based on the price compared to "big boy" apps.

And yes, frankly, producing artwork using 100% canned products that they had little or no creative input on - figure, morph, texture, pose, even canned lighting and postwork actions - deserves a lot less credit (if any credit at all, really) than someone who models, rigs, textures, etc. completely original work.

ps: be honest, the YT and Maddie "giant tongue" products mentioned are pretty gross.

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Wow those guys are so cool i bet they get loads of girls.......Steve

E-frontier has what  -  some 300.000 user for Poser alone?
I don't EXPECT all these people to be "artists".
I read through that whole thread but didn't find the only point that would have really mattered:
"Are the users having fun with Poser".
Those "participants" in this "discussion" don't seem to have too much fun with their work. The wouldn't need to start a flame anywhere, if they were busy doing things with their "art"-"software".
Especially this "jin choung" guy. I really LOVE guys like him. And what I love most about those guys is their faces when I refuse them to taking part in my art classes. (Non-virtual, face-to-face, sculpting classes).
But my question now is: do I have to make my own hammers and chisels to be an artist?
Do I have to make my own marble to be an artist?

www.skin2pix.com

dead horse, going cheap!

Quote - Especially this "jin choung" guy. I really LOVE guys like him. And what I love most about those guys is their faces when I refuse them to taking part in my art classes. (Non-virtual, face-to-face, sculpting classes).

And yet, and yet, and yet....  he makes some very valid points, just the same.  If someone is cranking out 100% canned image day after day, are they really on the same plane as Michelangelo?  Plainly, no.

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Yes, but jin misses the point completely by claiming that Poser users consider themselves as 3d modelers. His actual argument was something along the lines of 'using canned content as an animator doesnt' diminish your work - using canned content as a modeler does'. But Poser users don't really fall into either camp - much work is done as still images rather than annimation, but I have yet to meet anyone who claims that they 'modeled' the images they created (unless they actually DID model parts of it in another program).

Jin also has the somewhat murky position of having to be right. Ob several occasions, when someone offered what to me seemed a good rebuttal of one of his arguments, he responded with, effectively, 'yes, but that's not what I'm saying'... and then went off on another tangent... from 'all poser is sh*t', to ' it all looks the same', to 'it's not about poser, it's about using stock content', to 'what is art, anyway?'. If you're going to stand your ground and be an arrogant fathead, at least stick to your guns and maintain one constant arguemtn to do it on.

The other point I found interesting was that the single image ofered in rebuttal of 'all poser stuff looks the same, and looks sh*t' - Carodan's image, supplied by dgitalsculptor, or whatever his name was... was completely ignored by anyone there. I get the feeling they didn't even register that what was being shown was actually a Poser image.

In fairness, though, the only flamers I saw there were Neverko and Jin. Sword1 wasnt' really a flamer, and I don't think the account was set up just to stir trouble, contrary to pjz's thoughts... I think he just chose that moment to come out of the shadows and actually post n a forum he'd been follofor a while.now did I find his posts particularly inflammatory, as opposed to figures such as jin.

Anyway, a fun waste of a Sundayt morning... :P

JonTheCelt

Meh.  It was ever thus.  Leave 'em to it.

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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**"ps: be honest, the YT and Maddie "giant tongue" products mentioned are pretty gross."

**

Agreed!!
I will not even comment on what I see as the intent of those young child tongue morphs

Alot of that bashing over there was rather hate filled.
But it does expose the sordid underbelly of the various online poser communities
the Sexual Fetish wear the Idol worship of the "V" Chicks ,
the soft porn on the front page of this site etc.

But they are correct that poser is useful for previs and even illustration.
 

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Quote - And yet, and yet, and yet....  he makes some very valid points, just the same.  If someone is cranking out 100% canned image day after day, are they really on the same plane as Michelangelo?  Plainly, no.

Nobodys work is on the same plane as Michelangelo, nor on Rubens', Rembrandts', van Goghs', Picassos', Dalis', Fuchs', mine, or yours.
Not to talk about you or me - the other gentlemen mentioned above where masters in showing their excellent talents in COMMUNICATION USING MATTER.

If anybody produces something as a piece of art, there is a communicative target in it, no matter whether the artwork is a painting, a sculpture, a dance, a song or a digitally created image. It's good, if it communicates. 'cause only if it communicates, it can touch somebody. If it doesn't communicate, it's either  masturbation, or a fraud.

This does not mean at every piece of communication is "art" - needs some craftmanship, too, to handle the communicative tools. And of course by far not everything made with Poser is good. But it's also not part of the qualification that a virtual image has to be created by  the use of Lightwave, Vue, Maya or anything else.

If somebody can use Poser to communicate and touch, let him/her do this.

The way this Jin guy is argueing around simply shows, that he is completely unable to communicate, has not got the least amount of craftmanship in COMMUNICATION - which means, he is unable to touch (maybe except himself). That, of course, is his problem, not mine. But if somebody stands up and wants to make RULES for art, a MEASURE for it, he should have left the world the day the Nazis 3rd Reich was over.
As long as he doesn't show that he can handle even the most primitive tools and rules of communication, he must not be allowed to judge, because he is not an artist but something else that starts with an "a".

www.skin2pix.com

My favorite was

Quote - I think it's neat that vampires can now be photographed with digital cameras.

I think that's neat too.:biggrin:

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

Quote - ...which means, he is unable to touch (maybe except himself)...

 

Quote of the week.  :lol:

Coppula eam se non posit acceptera jocularum.

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I had the misfortune to stumble across this when I was looking for more info on LW integration with Poser Pro. The  discussion rapidly deteriorated into slagging Poser and other apps.

Please don't judge all Lightwavers by these guys. Some of us are areally quite nice and helpful. :)

I don't think we should read this crap, people talking there about something they do not use or even know how to use and judge book by the cover.. look over by CG Talk there are images by people rendered using the ::big:: prog that looks not better.. this is not about what you use but how you use..  what make poser so different from other apps ? b/c the other apps have the art button build in already and we just need to spend a little bit more time to get it lol cost us more time make us more creative and trust me poser is used more in professional production as you think, but well nobody talk about, they don't wanna be judge...by the lil fishes around..
ART is the child of your mind and soul something that can move others in good, funny or bad way and not a tool you use to create it..this will make from you not better Artist..
2 years ago when I posted on CG-Talk preview of a head with textures we use to do for our Poser models, I get 600 replies in couple of hour telling me crap about poser and how I should do that using only painting brush in photoshop etc..bla bla bla , today CG-Talk sell ideas like that and make good money.. and nobody say anything, with one word..

Poser community tested, Mother approved...

Cath

_________________________________________________________

"Surrender to what it is - Let go of what was - Have faith in what will be "

Quote - The way this Jin guy is argueing around simply shows, that he is completely unable to communicate, has not got the least amount of craftmanship in COMMUNICATION - which means, he is unable to touch (maybe except himself). That, of course, is his problem, not mine. But if somebody stands up and wants to make RULES for art, a MEASURE for it, he should have left the world the day the Nazis 3rd Reich was over.

Granted he says it in a harsh way, but - from your point of view, there is no point to even try to learn or improve, because there are no standards or rules or measurements.  If it's somehow wrong to look at something and say, "Holy shit that's ugly!", then it is also wrong to say, "Wow, that's sublimely beautiful!"

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They're just jealous that I can get fully clothed figures with more scenery than you can shake a kettle at & decent lighting set up in the time it takes them to model a cube.

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Regardless if you give a sh@#$ about his point, you have to agree it's good to know sh@#$ when you see it and know sh@#$ when you hear it elsewise, you'll be in a delusional world of sh@#$ in the end.  Just summarizin'

*Good read.. thanks for the link

Quote - E-frontier has what  -  some 300.000 user for Poser alone?
I don't EXPECT all these people to be "artists".
I read through that whole thread but didn't find the only point that would have really mattered:
"Are the users having fun with Poser".
Those "participants" in this "discussion" don't seem to have too much fun with their work. The wouldn't need to start a flame anywhere, if they were busy doing things with their "art"-"software".
Especially this "jin choung" guy. I really LOVE guys like him. And what I love most about those guys is their faces when I refuse them to taking part in my art classes. (Non-virtual, face-to-face, sculpting classes).
But my question now is: do I have to make my own hammers and chisels to be an artist?
Do I have to make my own marble to be an artist?

 Your eyesight is failing. Check post 166. And my position is the same here as it is there... who cares? And if you do, then why?? It shouldn't alter anyones life either way. Kai is right. Dead Horse ages ago. It's argument for arguments sake, and nobody's opinion ever gets altered in the end anyway, except for solidifying the position of the poster either for or against. And each and everytime any hope for rational discussion is lost when the "what is art" card is played. And Catherine.... I admire you and your work tremendously but I have to tell you that Lightwave does not have an "art button" built in. If it did then I would use it. I'm surprised that someone of your caliber would even say that.

PS: And Paloth... running over here to gather troops for reinforcements just makes a bad situation worse, and ultimately changes nothing except breed more contempt. Nothing positive gained, ever, period.

**krimpr, by an "Art Button" i mean here the all great plugin and ready to use shaders and all the stuff that poser don't have, what make the renders looking better wihtout to spend so much time for the artist as it have to do with poser sometimes, I do not mean here anything else by... I should be more clear with that before... sorry

Cath
**

_________________________________________________________

"Surrender to what it is - Let go of what was - Have faith in what will be "

one further "no" vote about recruiting lynch mobs here. leave the dirty work to the poser porno sites.

Quote - **krimpr, by an "Art Button" i mean here the all great plugin and ready to use shaders and all the stuff that poser don't have, what make the renders looking better wihtout to spend so much time for the artist as it have to do with poser sometimes, I do not mean here anything else by... I should be more clear with that before... sorry

Cath
**

 

No problem Catherine. Threads like this make me defensive on either side of the same fence. It bothers me when communities turn against one another becaue I simply don't understand the need for it. I probably shouldn't read them.

***"And Paloth... running over here to gather troops for reinforcements just makes a bad situation worse, and ultimately changes nothing except breed more contempt. Nothing positive gained, ever, period."

"one further "no" vote about recruiting lynch mobs here.
leave the dirty work to the poser porno sites."***

Good Advice both !!
and without fail many of the
troop "reinforcements" rush over to those
threads and proceed to Myopicly post links to the exact
Same Stereotypical mediocre poser Prefab renders
that the poser "bashers" seem to Despise most:
ie: poorly lit Semi nekkid&nekkid  Dead eyed DAZ "V" chicks
garbed in DAZ fetishwear.
and it goes on and on.
 IMHO Its best to just leave those URL's where you find them.

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Don't waste your time with threads like this in the LW-forum, people. It's just the usual "my red sand mold is much better than your blue one - and if you think something else I'll hit you with my sand shovel"-discussion, born out of pure boredom. Really, it's not even worth reading if it's not technical related like "What app do you use to render perfect water?" (Let me guess... it's not Poser!). And in fact you could blow the whole thing by writing: I use Poser to render Poser models I've altered in ZBrush (or any other modeler) and textured with Bodypaint (or Deep Paint or...) and PS/PSP/whateverelse... - because that's what many people do. But isn't your time too precious?!?!?!

If you search through all those 3D-communities and store forums you will find countless kids throwing with sand and fighting with shovels (while I have to confess that blue shovels do hurt a little bit more, really, believe me!!).

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

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PS: And Paloth... running over here to gather troops for reinforcements just makes a bad situation worse, and ultimately changes nothing except breed more contempt. Nothing positive gained, ever, period. I haven't even taken part in the discussion at NewTek, though I am a Lightwave user. It was certainly not my intention here to "raise reinforcements" or "lynch mobs." Having upset some people with my recent pronouncement that "80% of Poser renders are hideous beyond belief" I thought it might provide some perspective to show that there are others who assert that Poser can never, under any circumstance, produce anything of quality.

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I hope you did not get me wrong! You didn't upset me in any way - I just wanted to comfort you. Discusssions like this raise their head every once and again, meanwhile to me it's nothing more or less than adult people playing little childs games. It is really not worth to  ponder about or be worried. Of course you can make quality art with Poser as you can do with any other app and tool, may ot be high-end software or a simple piece of chalc used on a sidewalk

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

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The Home Of The Living Dolls

you can make quality art with Poser as you can do with any other app and tool, may ot be high-end software or a simple piece of chalk used on a sidewalk Sure, someone might make great art with a piece of chalk, but why would they choose to use chalk. What does that say about the person??? I thought the discussion at NewTek was worth a few laughs at least. From an anthropological standpoint, it's of interest to note the peculiar caste system in computer graphics, with Poser as the untouchable (a situation not helped, btw, by the Maddie tongue banners.)

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ah, the deadhorse have been resurrected for bashing yet again, huh? these types of flamers always makes me chuckle. to me, at the end of it all, if the client is happy with my work no matter what medium i used, then my work is done. poser and vue are two of my mediums and it keeps some of us busy.

let them get all high and mighty, it usually means they have so much free time on their hands and less commissions coming in ;) otherwise they'd be oh so busy thinking up concepts to even waste their time flaming other people's choice of medium. as an art  teacher told me once -  "an empty can makes the loudest noise". it almost always rings true.

Let me just state that this is not meant as an offense towards users of Poser **or** as a testament of hard working souls with some art and modeling skills.

Sure, there are some that use this program (Poser) with absoluetly no art skills involved whatsoever, but imo that was/is a worthy goal of e-frontier...to make art available to all.

But that isn't my point. 
I believe that there are users of Poser, in conjunction with other programs, that are starting to build something that is all-together making others a little nervous.
Did Michael Angleo cheat using models to draw/sculpt from instead of his memory? No. He used models to enforce his talent and his communication. 
It is my belief that Poser, used with other programs, is going to start to burn down some barriers. Who wouldn't want high poly, game style content to play with at their finger tips?

Often the dogs that bark the loudest are really just nervous and unsure of what's happening around them. The best is yet to come.
Regards

Comitted to excellence through art.

Ugh..now my head is spinning...Id let them argue amongst themselves. Many artists use many different tools..and if the artist is happy with what he/she creates, and how they got from point "A" to point "B" whats it matter what anyone else thinks?

And as for chalk art..Ive seen some pretty impressive chalk art {totally OT of course, but ya made me think of it} 

http://users.skynet.be/J.Beever/pave.htm

~Jani

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---------------------------------------

Great!  I use Lightwave to create figures for Poser!  Now both sides will probably look down on me.

BTW you'll notice in the upper left column the Lightwave make 3d art plugin button,  the only time it works though is,  with 2 pots of coffee and a box of dunkin' donuts,  at 2:00 am in the morning.

Quote - BTW you'll notice in the upper left column the Lightwave make 3d art plugin button,  the only time it works though is,  with 2 pots of coffee and a box of dunkin' donuts,  at 2:00 am in the morning.

 

:lol:

2:00 AM is the best time of the day - top hour!  It's 6:00 AM that's the problem.  Nothing works at 6:00 AM.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Actually, a lot of quotes in there make perfect sense:

"Poser's limited animation tools simply aren't up to the task of any kind of animation that has any degree of complexity or duration. As far as I know, it has no distributed rendering, which would make it nearly impossible to make a two hour movie.
Commercials, shorts, why not, but not much else."

100% true.

*" know someone who does use Poser in their pipeline. I wont say who, but I will say they are very much a respected person in the LW community.

Just because it has limited tools, doesn't mean that it can't be used in a real production pipeline. If it suits the your current needs, is cheaper, and faster. Then why not? (I don't animate much, so no, I don't use it personally)"*

Again, 100% true, and I've also seen it in use personally and professionally. You want something quick and dirty? Poser will get it done. You want Final Fantasy or Beowulf (the new one coming out)? You get solutions with a lot more 'oomph to them.

The rest? Mostly pompous assbaggery (on both sides, come to think of it) to which I reply... so?

I have no opinion of fanboys for any particular CG suite.

I mean, I could just as easily start taking trash about LW in comparison to 3DS Max. What're they gonna do, mention Babylon 5 a lot? Maybe start a really cool flamewar about how Modo rocks, and LW is just a crusty, dying suite whice stands to face the same tepid fate as Bryce. Again, nothing (really) they can reply with - LW has been ignored a lot, after all.

Point is not to knock on LW, but to point out that every suite has strengths and weaknesses. Poser is a quickie little program you can make stuff with. Big deal. LW can do a bit more, and has the pricetag to prove it. Big Deal.

I work with enough real gfx professionals to know that they honestly couldn't give two shits about any particular suite outside of its technical merits. If it fits in the pipeline, it goes in the pipeline. If it doesn't, it sits on the HDD until the need arises. In Poser's case, it's cheaper than a rigged humanoid on Turbosquid (sometimes by orders of mangitude), so it fits a need and fills it. 

Sorry, but I just can't get up enough "ZOMG they called us bad namez0rs!" to bother; esp. not when compared with the CG world I see in real life.

/P

First of all let me explain the piece-of-chalk thing: Jumpstartme got the point - a skilled person can do fantastic things without expensive, fashionable or whatelse equipment... What I meant is: It's not important what tools you use, it's important what you come up with.

with Poser as the untouchable (a situation not helped, btw, by the Maddie tongue banners.)

About the Maddie-tongue-poses: If you want you can see something bad in everything, even in a slice of bread. Although I have not much use for these poses to me the tongue thing is natural if I think on kids having an icecream or most of all being cheeky!
But you've got the point with the "untouchable". Poser (and I think more than it DAZ Studio) is in the same sitution we once had for airbrush. Today airbrush is established art - but I remember times when oil-painters and other artists using brushes looked down on it.
After airbrush was accepted as art there was a long time where cg was at most crafts, not art - and now where people begin to see that digital creations can be art they enjoy a kind of internal separatism. And Poser is in the role of the black sheep

Look around and you'll find the same situation in all groups with similar interests: Bikers with choppers against bikers with racers, chopper bikers with asian bikes against chopper bikers with european and american bikes... my amd against your intel...

*If it fits in the pipeline, it goes in the pipeline.
*Exactly! And more than once I found just one little intention behind these discussions: people not willing to learn handling another app and use it beside their favorite.

I'm not always right, but my mistakes are more interesting!

And I am not strange, I am Limited Edition!

Are you ready for Antonia? Get her textures here:



The Home Of The Living Dolls

LOL!  Yeah,  6:00 am is when everthing get's fuzzy spins around then crashes!

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - Sorry, but I just can't get up enough "ZOMG they called us bad namez0rs!" to bother; esp. not when compared with the CG world I see in real life.

I echo this, just dropping 'CG' out of it entirely. It does none of us (and I'm including whoever is/was posting over thereabouts) any good to stomp around like toddlers in the midst of a tantrum -- that tends to be ugly as can be no matter who is doing it. So why get offended by people acting that way? Pfft. Not worth the mental energy. Using my actual creativity is worth more time, IMHO, than slagging off on someone else's (or the perceived lack thereof).

-D
---
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye texture.

This evening, I wandered into Barnes and Noble and picked up a copy of The Art of BEOWOLF, a big ol collection of preparatory artworks for the new movie. Know what? It does look pretty amazing, but we have texture artists that run circles around what's in there. The architecture is pretty good, but we have modellers who can do the same stuff in their sleep. The lines have gotten more and more blurry, IMHO. Sure, right now, Poser isnt good for a two hour film, but look how much the program has changed in just the last five years and tell me that using it for a feature film sometime in the near future isnt just some wild fantasy. Like everything else, it depends on who's handling the controls.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

I agree on the texturing, even without having to look.

The reason why is simple... have you ever seen the specs for Blu-Ray, ATSC, or even the oh-so-balyhooed 1080p (let alone NTSC or PAL)? I mean, we're talking pretty lo-rez here - damned low-resolution. It then gets broken up into 24 frames per second (30 if you're lucky).  Now add to it a deadline... little wonder the textures are lower-resolution (at least on all but the close-up shots).

I'm also willing to bet that Sub-D and low-poly are the watchwords of the day... maximize the detail with a minimum of CPU cycles at render time :)

/P

ie; specualr, displacement and normal maps

By the way Beowolf looks very cool, that's the same guy from 300, isn't it?

Comitted to excellence through art.

I mean, I could just as easily start taking trash about LW in comparison to 3DS Max. What're they gonna do, mention Babylon 5 a lot? These days they'd probably mention the new version Battle Star Galactica a lot. I've noticed some professionals look down their noses at Lightwave because they associate that program with TV work, which has strict deadlines, high demands and lower pay. "Art" is funny that way. I'll leave it to the professionals.

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nobody mentions Babylon 5 anymore. :crying: it's totally forgotten, like "herman's hermits" and "the monkees". :lol: p.s. one "yes vote" from me on beowulf. he dove down into the ocean and killed a whale, but when he told the tale, everybody just laffed their fool heads off.

The bottom line is who cares if it is art or not? As long as it is fun. Poor Vincent Van Gogh did not sell much when he was alive and he died miserable and in poverty. Look what his paintings sell for now. Very sad. Millions for a painting don't do you much good if you are dead. Also, the merchants would be out of business if nobody bought their "canned scenes, clothes, etc." Poser is a hobby for me just like riding my horse and tinkering with computers. It would be nice if I could make some money at it, but I don't have the energy, LOL! I think they are talking about using different 3D apps for commercials and movies. Most of us here, unless you are a merchant, are using Poser for fun. I knew a man who repaired and sold antique clocks at shows. I asked him why he did not open an antique clock/repair shop. His answer was "If I did that it would be work, and it wouldn't be fun anymore".  The programs you use depend on what you are planning on doing with the output of that program.

Quote - The bottom line is who cares if it is art or not? As long as it is fun. Poor Vincent Van Gogh did not sell much when he was alive and he died miserable and in poverty. Look what his paintings sell for now. Very sad. Millions for a painting don't do you much good if you are dead. Also, the merchants would be out of business if nobody bought their "canned scenes, clothes, etc." Poser is a hobby for me just like riding my horse and tinkering with computers. It would be nice if I could make some money at it, but I don't have the energy, LOL! I think they are talking about using different 3D apps for commercials and movies. Most of us here, unless you are a merchant, are using Poser for fun. I knew a man who repaired and sold antique clocks at shows. I asked him why he did not open an antique clock/repair shop. His answer was "If I did that it would be work, and it wouldn't be fun anymore".  The programs you use depend on what you are planning on doing with the output of that program.

I second that!

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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1.  The "silence is golden" theory.  

It's a bit disingenuous to regularly engage in expressing one's opinions freely in one -- or in several -- online communities, and then to suggest that it's somehow illegitimate for others to do the same thing.  This is especially true when the same behavior -- and more -- has been SOP over a long period of time for some.

That's what public forums are for: speech, not silence.

Newtek invites its members to speak freely.  And that's what some of us have chosen to do.  If others don't want to say anything -- and if they wish to regard their silence as constituting a virtuous act -- then that's their privilege.  Others of us might choose to speak out, and also might regard our active speaking on the topic as a virtuous act.  That's our privilege -- especially as we are members in good standing of Newtek's community.  And we are both loyal customers and users of their software.

BTW - If any 'stomping around tantrums' were in evidence over there, I completely failed to notice them.  I saw a discussion which happened on another board: with the observation that it wasn't terribly different in tone from the 'discussions' which regularly occur over here (and elsewhere -- it sounded a lot like the internet to me).

If it's legitimate to disagree over here, then it's equally legitimate to disagree in another community -- where one also owns a house: and therefore has an abiding interest in the community affairs of that other "town".  It matters to some of us what happens in the places where we live and are active.  So if we see something that we think is wrong -- some of us will point the problem out.  Being a new member of a community who just moved in a little over a month ago doesn't preclude one from speaking at the local townhall meeting -- and it doesn't instantly call into question one's motives for speaking out when one does so.  I never cease to be fascinated by constant attempts to side-step factual issues by attempting to call a poster's motives into question.  Of course I fully understand the reasoning behind that tactic: because if the poster's motives can be asserted to be bad, then their opinions (with which I disagree) can be ignored and summarily dismissed; and one need not go to the trouble of answering them directly.......especially when there is no handy answer to be had.  Better to either call them a name, or else to say that they are motivated by jealousy / desire for personal glory / desire to draw attention to themselves / desire to stir up trouble / whatever.  You can then proceed to blithely overlook whatever they've actually said.

Participating in a community is an act of virtue: and not one of vice.

Odd how some seem to be of the opinion that others are allowed to speak in one and only one public square, but not in others.  While the reality is that if everyone were to choose silence: then not much would ever get done.

**2.  The "fanboy" theory.
**
There's more talk about "fanboys" to be found at the link below.  It's been my observation that once in awhile an individual who is critical of a given software package, and who is then challenged in turn for their criticism, frequently resorts to calling the critics of their criticism "fanboys".  In other words, it's totally OK, and perfectly legitimate for the critic to criticise something as much as they like -- but it isn't OK, nor is it legitimate for others to point out the virtues of the same thing.  Because doing so makes the supporters into "fanboys".  In other words (again): there's one set of speech rules which apply for the self-styled critics, and then there's another -- very different -- set of speech rules which apply for any supporters who might dare to take a hand in the discussion.

In other words (x3):  I'll call them a name ("fanboy") in a feeble attempt to de-legitimize their thoughts/opinions on the matter.

http://www.newtek.com/forums/showthread.php?t=75613&page=30

Quite an interesting read a few posts down at that link.  The 'interesting' part starts about 2/3 of the way down the page.  Somebody in that thread likes to use the term "fanboy".

**3.  A point of agreement.
**

*Quote - If it fits in the pipeline, it goes in the pipeline.
*Exactly!

Precisely.  IIRC, several of us argued that very same point over there.  So there's no disagreement on that score: as the point's already been made.  Or at least it's been made in that thread.  Which is a good thing to share at Newtek as well as here, IMO.

Hmmmm.  Many of our fellow community members over there even agreed with it.  So I suppose that Lightwave users really are smart, after all.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

My thought is more that it's usually not worth the energy to get upset over someone else's opinion and potentially react in anger than it is "no one should disagree with anyone or say potentially nasty things." I don't think it'd do us any good to respond that way, essentially. Then again... I use a Mac and have never used anything else. grin I'm used to the "your thing sucks eggs, my thing is made of concentrated excellence!" arguments (from both sides of that one, too).

-D
---
It's all fun and games until someone loses an eye texture.

snickers I just read your sig Surreality....cracked me up :lol:

Sorry, that was OT, but it was funny...carry on all

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
---------------------------------------

By the way Beowolf looks very cool, that's the same guy from 300, isn't it? Nope. It's from, of all people, Robert Zawekis, who gave us the god-awful Polar Express. He's clearly learned a few things in the interim. Further, Beowolf is all CG, which makes it all the more remarkable, while 300, as wonderful visually as it was, was actors in front a greenscreen. >> have you ever seen the specs for Blu-Ray, ATSC, or even the oh-so-balyhooed 1080p (let alone NTSC or PAL)? I mean, we're talking pretty lo-rez here - damned low-resolution To which I reply: so what? The eye can only take in so much information, so what's the point of a head map that's 15,000 pixels to a side when one that's 3,000 does the same job more efficiently and just as well? The whole resolution thing, when it comes to animation anyway, is a bit of a canard. And let's not forget that Beowolf was designed for theatrical wide screen -- I suspect that the resolution was a tad better than your easy dismissal. The images, after all, are being seen some twenty to thirty feet high, and every little pock and blemish will show.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - To which I reply: so what? The eye can only take in so much information, so what's the point of a head map that's 15,000 pixels to a side when one that's 3,000 does the same job more efficiently and just as well? The whole resolution thing, when it comes to animation anyway, is a bit of a canard.

That's my point. You're balancing processor time vs. requirements in making a movie, since it's a factor now - render farms be damned. > Quote - And let's not forget that Beowolf was designed for theatrical wide screen -- I suspect that the resolution was a tad better than your easy dismissal. The images, after all, are being seen some twenty to thirty feet high, and every little pock and blemish will show.

I doubt it, unless they were shooting it for IMAX. ;) /P

That's my point. You're balancing processor time vs. requirements in making a movie, since it's a factor now - render farms be damned. I'm not sure you have a point. The resolution makes no difference after a certain point; people who work in print have known this for years. Anything beyond about 450dpi is just gilding the lily because the eye simply cannot make the distinction between that and anything finer. The same would hold, IMHO, in texture maps: after a certain point, even for the best closeup, the amount of texture wrapped around a mesh becomes moot. There is no difference between a 3,000 pixel head map and a 12,000 in terms of the final result. So again, the resolution thing is just a canard: the amount of processing time is a non-factor if the base materials themselves make no difference.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

That is EXACTLY what PEnguinisto was saying, Sean... he was responding to someone else who was pointig at the low-res textures of the film as an indicator that Poser was capable of better, and saying that in film, there is no need to have such high textures - things move so quickly, and the screen resolution is of such (comparatively) low quality, that lower textures and lower-poly models can be gotten away with, in order to maximise render times per framce.

JonTheCelt

He was actually responding to my earlier post. But whatever.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

I like using Lightwave to make Poser modeles. In my world the applications get along just fine:)

patorak we set up Lightwaves workspace almost exactly the same. :D

I stopped reading the other forum after about, oh three pages.  Frankly, not even bothering with the kevlar anymore, and really don't care what the opinion is of me if i vent some of my truer feelings about this.

These elitists, for whatever purpose, because they can afford (or jack off someone else for free) outrageously expensive programs, perhaps to look down at poser users and heckle, are starting to mess with my livelyhood.     Word gets around, no matter how you try and stop it.  There is few places to go anymore to do any serious type poser art and be seen, unless you have a trillion friends going "Oh lovely!" in response in comments.   I cant find others who are really serious about it, without going through many sites and galleries laiden with private parts ex'ed out or content advisories.    I am not bashing the nude artform, nor am i bashing beginners.

However, there is nowhere out there where people who are NOT hobbiests can go for poser, and not be thrown in with new users and hundreds of default vickies.

I use poser, sure.  I use it for what it was originally intended for, back then that was respectable.  you used it as a model, then you painted.  It was a guide not an entire 3d render engine genie.   Now?  If i even hint i use poser, people even the casual every day person walking by my gallery wrinkles their nose and turns away.

And its not the poser users doing this, its the elitists, and thats why I have a problem with them.  They are bashing and killing in the real world a tool used to create art.    Those that use it with utmost passion, are frowned on?

What should i shell out about three thousand dollars to do exactly what i do now, to ease their egotistical pragmatic mindselts?

Hell no.

I make monkeys in poser...

It's fun...

:)~~~~~

I model them in Lightwave, thats fun too.....

I stopped giving a damn what people think about my tools or my methods long ago....

I do what I do and have FUN doing it... :)

I'm a Waver and a Poser.... Sweetness!!!!!

And its not the poser users doing this, its the elitists, and thats why I have a problem with them.  

Why worry about what a small set of extreme thinkers and crappy people has to say anyway?
The more they get ignored, the less of a voice they get to have. Except for mumbling and grumbling all to themselves.

(Someone ought to make a poser animation out of that visual)

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!"  Whaz yurs?
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bad news, by the way. there are already bad reviews of beowulf. :crying: the director apparently made the usual misteak that these UCLA Film schoolboys make - extended face shots and close-ups of the characters. it always registers on the test audience as creepy or even scary, due to the lack of real-world experience of the animators, combined with their inadequate attempts in animating expressions and skin-muscle interactions.

If it's done with the same level of professionalism as Hawk the Slayer, then I'll be interested.  However: if it's done with the same level of professionalism as the latest Star Wars films, then I won't be interested.

Bad reviews might even serve to attract my interest, if the bad reviews are bad for the right reasons.  The public usually hates what the critcs love, anyway.

LOTR's.....?  It's OK, but it's not true to the books.  They made major characters out of extremely mnor characters from the books, among other things.  They also jacked around with the story for the sake of being PC.  That's a big negative in my book.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Hi Tate

Greetings fellow Waver and Poserer!  Great monkey!  Did you rig it in lightwave too?  I like having the panels handy,  'specially the layers panel. 

Cheers

Pat

No, he was rigged in Poser. Although I have to admit (please dont flame me peeps) Rigging in Lightwave is way easer! I wish Poser had acual weight maps instead of groups. It would make my life so much easer! :)
 

Quote - No, he was rigged in Poser. Although I have to admit (please dont flame me peeps) Rigging in Lightwave is way easer! I wish Poser had acual weight maps instead of groups. It would make my life so much easer! :)
 

 

The chances of your getting flamed for making a statement as innocuous as that are virtially non-existent, I'd say.  That's not the type of remark that's guaranteed flame-bait.  Throw in a few suggestions about the doubtful ancestry of Poser users in general, and then tack on comments / implications about the phrase "Poser Art" being an oxymoron -- THAT would get you noticed. 

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I don't think anyone will flame you.  Everyone knows Poser needs weight mapping,  although it may kick up the price a bit.  I'd like to see support for Sub-D,  multiple uvmaps,  and normal maps,  too.

Quote - > Quote -

And yet, and yet, and yet....  he makes some very valid points, just the same.  If someone is cranking out 100% canned image day after day, **are they really on the same plane as Michelangelo? ** Plainly, no.

 

SAY WHAT??? And who the fuck at Newtek is Michelangelo???? I hate that BS comparison. We're all making 3d toys essentially. This whole "art vs non-art" debate is such pretentious nonsense!

Now your talking. Sub-D would be fantastic!

There's only one Michelangelo!

I know next to nothing about Lightwave specifics, and have a question.
Is it true that it's rigging translates into poser? Am I totally misinformed here?

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!"  Whaz yurs?
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Quote - I know next to nothing about Lightwave specifics, and have a question.
Is it true that it's rigging translates into poser? Am I totally misinformed here?

 

not that I'm aware of. If it did I think that nobody would be rigging in poser.

Handle every stressful situation like a dog.

If you can't eat it or play with it,

just pee on it and walk away. :-)

....................................................

I wouldnt have to manage my anger

if people would manage their stupidity......

 

I don't know...   I haven't tried it.  ...Actually,  I've been too scared too.  Firing up the Wave in that aspect may cause a rift in the space time continuim of the Poserverse.

There is no way to rig in Lightwave then bring it over to Poser. I wish there was! :)
I do however do all the grouping in Lightwave, I cant stand Posers grouping tools.
They hurt my brain.... :D~~~~~

Quote - > Quote -

And yet, and yet, and yet....  he makes some very valid points, just the same.  If someone is cranking out 100% canned image day after day, **are they really on the same plane as Michelangelo? ** Plainly, no.

 
SAY WHAT??? And who the fuck at Newtek is Michelangelo???? I hate that BS comparison. We're all making 3d toys essentially. This whole "art vs non-art" debate is such pretentious nonsense!

 

You missed the point - you don't have to BE Michelangelo to see his artwork and know that it's on a much higher level than pretty much anything displayed here (or in the Newtek gallery for that matter).  You also don't have to BE Michelangelo to recognize bad art.  This was in response to the sentiment that "the only thing that matters is whether you're having fun".  True enough, if all you're doing is showing the stuff to your mom (or pandering to the numbers game here in the gallery).  When you buy things though, things that you pay money for - is the price you're willing to pay weighted towards what great fun the seller had preparing the item (whatever that item is), or how you value the product?  

Oops, forget I asked that - nobody is allowed to put value on things, because there are no standards or rules or measurements.  I'm okay, you're okay!

My Freebies

I hear ya on the grouping and rigging in poser 
:lol:  I keep wondering what kind of masochistic streak got me into poser rigging :lol:

I tend to use UV mapper for grouping. The way it structured the obj filem you can group things without messing up the vertex order... (that's a whole new thread though...)

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Tate's Ranting Lightwave Model to Poser Figure Tutorial

First you create your model in Modeler. And instead of creating weight maps like you would to rig in Lightwave you need to create groups for Poser. To do this you need to select the polygons that you want grouped, like the left forearm for example. So, you selected the polygons you need to create the Left forearm group, now with those polys selected press the view tab in modeler. In your menu you will see the create part button. Click on it; now name your part lForeArm... or whatever you want to call it. Do this for all the different body parts, head, neck, chest, hip, ect....
Once you have all the body parts grouped in Lightwave you need to freeze your model. Now export you model as an object. Open up Poser, import you object. Now click the Setup tab to go into the set up room. Use Poser's bone tool to build your rig. Make sure when you name the bones in Poser, the names of the bones mach the names of the groups you created in Lightwave.
Once your rig is built you need to spend a bit of time tweaking the crap out of the rig, Work out the joint perameters. Now add your morphs and you've got a poser figure.
                    I know this is pointless ranting but hey, somene might find this useful.

Love the Wave, even if your a Poser. The Two together do great things:)))

Quote - I hear ya on the grouping and rigging in poser 
:lol:  I keep wondering what kind of masochistic streak got me into poser rigging :lol:

I tend to use UV mapper for grouping. The way it structured the obj filem you can group things without messing up the vertex order... (that's a whole new thread though...)

I find rigging in Poser to be as painful as Dental surgry in a third world country, with a rusty spoon...
I've broken many a mouse doing it but hey, I get to share my models with everyone afterwards so, thats cool!

Quote - There's only one Michelangelo!

Ahhh.... The coolest one!!!

Quote - I don't think anyone will flame you.  Everyone knows Poser needs weight mapping,  although it may kick up the price a bit.  I'd like to see support for Sub-D,  multiple uvmaps,  and normal maps,  too.

And we all intend to keep pestering until we get it, don't we? I know that weightmapping or some kind of sub-D has been requested every time a 'What new feature' poll is fielded by eF. And if they could do it without voiding the support for the current system it would be fantastic. Older stuff could be converted over time (and interest); for that matter, combining the two systems might yield even more power....

*Oops, forget I asked that - nobody is allowed to put value on things, because there are no standards or rules or measurements.  I'm okay, you're okay!

*Good thing you changed your mind!  I think I hear jackboots marching down the thread!

Hey Dale

Maybe EF could sideline the current Poser into Poser Classic and start anew with Posamation.

Cheers

Pat

Yeah, Patorak, I sorta agree. 
I think it's time for poser to grow up a little. I think most of it's user base is ready for new and improved rigging style... or sumphtin like that.

Tate, yes, that's one of the fun things with Poser (for me), sharing things with others :)

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!"  Whaz yurs?
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Poser 5,6,7 has run it's course.  EF now has a choice live and die on V3 content isolation or return to it's Metacreation days and make it compatible with the high end apps.  By compatible,  I mean both import and export,  not just the obj,  but the cr2 as well.   In this,  I believe Poser will regain it's former glory.

Quote - Yeah, Patorak, I sorta agree. 
I think it's time for poser to grow up a little.

I think that this is a part of what ef is attempting to do with Poser Pro.  Or at least they are trying to head in that direction.  If it doesn't actually 'grow up' just yet -- perhaps Poser will have gotten into its adolescence.  And as we all know: adolescence can be a difficult time.  But it's headed in the right direction, with no arrested development.

We'll see how they manage it.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I hope so!  Because,  I'm not going to upgrade to another bean counter version of Poser5,6,7 catering to mil figures and such,  with their primitve mesh,  textures, and rigging!

Xeno, I hope that's what they're doing... however... what I saw on that list of features was a downer. Interaction with big apps as the only major improvement at this point is a bit too little too late. Most people that had interest in this had found plugins that'll do the job.
I know for me, that alone isn't an incentive to upgrade.

A big selling point for me would be better rigging abilities and better rigging tools in addition to interaction with big apps.

Imagine the world where V5 bends without the major anatomically incorrect heels and albows due to simplistic poser rigging...  Imagine translation of falloff spheres into weght maps and working across multiple groups...  Imagine two children bones not needing a hack to work on a skirt bend...

I bet most of the poser customer base has computer sustems powerful enough to handle a bit of a rigging system upgrade....

anyway... I'm off the soap box...

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!"  Whaz yurs?
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Conniekat8, did you ever try the Greenbriar program that claims to make rigging for Poser easier? I’d like to know if it’s worth trying, but I’ve never seen a report on it one way or the other.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Alternatively, imagine if they improved the render engine to the point where there wasn't a pressing need to export to a foreign app just to take advantage of higher quality rendering technology?

My Freebies

PJZ, I agree about the rendering too...  dare I say that goes without saying :)

Paloth, I was getting ready to demo the greenbriar tools, when my rigging problem resolved itself (something sunk in), so I passed up on the demo for the moment - in the interest of moving forward on the project I'm doing. 
Perhaps when I'm done with it, I'll revisit the tools.

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As I plan to sidegrade, I can at least check out how their network rendering scheme works and co-exists with other systems of the like....and it would probably behoove the tinkerers who do sidegrade to poke about a bit; no telling what may be under the hood, waiting....

What amuses me in threads like these (and I haven't read the thing that was linked to, my mood is mediochre at best and I have no intentions of ruining that...) is how everybody seems to agree that Poser Porn is something akin to the Anti Christ.

If everybody hated porn, Poser generated or not, it wouldn't be such a huge market as it is. Even this site (as family friendly as it is) is a clear exapmle that Sex Sells. And why not? at least with Poser Porn, no REAL people are exploited or hurt.

And no, I'm not buying the "CGI causing people to act weird things out IRL" - if you're sick, you'll find fodder for your sick fantasies even without Poser around to facilitate that. And on the other side, Poser may be a valve for some people, to see things they can't do or see IRL - for instance someone having sex with an alien or a monster ect. In my opinion that's no worse than rendering tons of innocent (!) faeries. It's all make believe. Things that aren't real.

Poser isn't art. Poser is a computer program. Poser generated pictures MAY be art. As may something done with other tools. I've seen stuff exhibited in art museums I wouldn't even soil my garbage bin with. Art is in the eye of the beholder.

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You just can't put the words "Poserites" and "happy" in the same sentence - didn't you know that? LaurieA
  Using Poser since 2002. Currently at Version 11.1 - Win 10.

Quote - >> By the way Beowolf looks very cool, that's the same guy from 300, isn't it? Nope. It's from, of all people, Robert Zawekis, who gave us the god-awful Polar Express.

 

How dare you cast aspersions on the mega-hit agitprop masterpiece extolling the virtuals of the Elf Peoples Socialist Republic of the North Pole and its glorious (yet equal) leader Commisar Santa? Running dog lacky of capitalist imperialist scroogehood! We will bury you, ... in snow!

Seriously, that movie creeped me out. When they got to the North Pole, my wife said "A bit Stalinistic, isn't it."

the latest news is that zemeckis hired some nerd to direct beowulf, then took over as director when the nerd flopped. this was in a positive review of the film, IMVHO planted by the studio, but it might have been a review by somebody who actually saw the film, for all I know. the reviewer seems to have ignored all the prior films, television shows and novels that were adaptations of the original anglo-saxon myth, even to the point of erroneously referring to it as a "viking" story.

hehe, "a viking story." Thanks for the laugh.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Actually, the Vikings stole the story of Beowulf from ancient Egypt.  And it happened at about the same time that the Greeks stole Western Civilization from Egypt.

"Beowulf" is in reality an Egyptian name.  Tutankhamen's dog was named Beowulf.  His eldest son was named Beowulf, too.  The Vikings kidnapped both of them, and then got the story of Beowulf from Beowulf -- the Egyptian prince.

The Vikings also stole the idea of sailing to the Americas from the Egyptians, too.  Nothing in the history of the world has every happened or been accomplished without first stealing the idea from the Egyptians.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - ...Nothing in the history of the world has every happened or been accomplished without first stealing the idea from the Egyptians.

Who in turn stoled all of their ideas from the Mesopotamians...:rolleyes:

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

True, true........

Something To Do At 3:00AM