I need help ! I was about to get Poser 7 ( i am using 4 at mo ) when i got a copy of DAZ Studio on a magazine. It seems to be a good bit of software and allows me to use post-Poser 4 figures like Miki. I find some of the menus take a bit of getting used to and much prefer the Poser menu for selecting figures , pose .

I need that extra push -tell me what i will get with poser 7 that i'm not getting with DAZ Studio . I'm not an animator BTW so im not worried about animated features.

Thanks in anticipation

 

Hmmm. DAZ Studio is still an ongoing project, and each new version brings more features.
Current version 1.8 can do many of the things Poser 7 can do, but a few things I still need
Poser 7 for. First, the Face Room. DS has no version of this, and it is no loss to me as I don't
use E-F figures. DS has good shaders, and you can buy excellent shader packages, but DS
doesn't currently have anything like Poser 7 Material Room. There is a third party JAVA program
called Eilir that provides something similar to the Poser MAT Room for DS. It is in the DAZ
Studio Freeposiory Forum on the DAZ site. No Setup Room or joint editing yet, so if you are
of a mind to create new figures or clothes, you will need Poser for that. Dynamic Hair and
cloth have not yet been implimented, but I don't use dynamic hair, and find dynamic cloth to
be a PITA most of the time. Recommendation? If you don't need to create clothing or new
figures, DS will do. It's more stable than Poser and it's render engine is better and faster
than Poser 7's firefly renderer, which crashes, on average, about 2 to 3 times per session,
for me anyway. Maybe Poser just hates me. :)

Greywolf

Dynamic Cloth
Face Room
Material Room
Dynamic Hair.
Set up room so you can work with your Poser models rather than just view them.
Various render options.

DAZ Studio is a great program to view Poser files and has a good render engine but you get what you pay for. If all you want to do is pose (but not adjust) Poser models and have no interest in the realism of dynamic cloth or hair then stay with the freebie. However if you want to develop your 3D to the next level then I would recommend Poser 7 as a very cost effective way of moving forward.

I agree with Greywolf, most of the features that Poser has that D|S does not involve rigging and other things to help in the creation of posable figures. I've never really seen dynamic cloth look that great except for flowing dresses, and I've never seen Poser dynamic hair look...well, good at all.  ;)  Poser's Face Room really isn't a must-have feature either. Poser is definitely superior when it comes to animation and I believe it's currently better for attempts at photorealistic lighting (you can get extra light sets for D|S to do this, but Poser users seem to get better results). If you do stick with Studio, consider getting pwSurface (which adds important features to DAZ Studio's materials) and Mask Creator (which makes masks of individual items in your scene, making postwork much easier), both at DAZ.

In short, I'd use Studio for now and if you find yourself wanting more, try the latest Poser demo and see if you like it's added features.

Thanks,

SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Something else to consider.. once you start buying plugins for DS, that free prcetag vaporizes pretty fast.

Also utilities like Shader Spider, Particles, Philc's poser toolbox and wardrobe wizard2 poser plugin can't be used if you have DS, and the plugin version appears to have features that Ds does not.

Take a look at some of the amazing shaders that baggins bill has created in the poser material room, and you'll be amazed.

While some people will tell you DS's renderer is better, others will tell you poser's is. I think that's a subjective thing, and ask people who use dynamics if they would live without it, and you'll hear a resounding NO!

Maybe a year from now I'd consider replacing poser with DS, but not now. And for what it's worth, I've never had poser 7 crash on me yet, and I've never really had any issues with it at all.

Some people just HATE poser, and would replace it with anything given the chance.

Another possibility is the new carrera available from Daz. Again, it's missing come critical poser 7 features, however it does add additional features of it's own to the mix.

Something else to consider.. most products work 100% in poser.. and less so in DS or carrerra or the like. Also, dazupdates DS sometime it seems on a weekly basis.. while that might initially sound great, there are issues in some builds, with features that are broken, and then restored in a later build. It's been liek that for over 2 years now, so I don;t see that changing anytime soon.

Personally? I couldn't live without P7.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I can only agree, without Poser 7 my Posettes would have no more clothes, no dynamic hair and hairbrows, no improved skin with the material room, no smooth polygons, no morphing tool...
I use almost only dynamic clothes and with some other things like the crossdresser and blender my little beloved can live happily for a long time... DS has a different strategy, it has no initial cost but if you want to do something you've to pay for the addons... I really don't like that... I had P7 for what I thought was a good price and I'm happy with it...

Posette, and no else ! Posetteforever

Both can be used in different fashions. The only reason I don't use Poser unless I have to,
is the intability. I know not all people have this problem, but P7 is the only 3d program I have
that crashes so inconsistantly. I can't pinpoint any reason because there doesn't seem to be
any common denominator. Until E-F corrects that, I use Poser only for what I can't do in DS.
Since I don't use dynamics, Poser is for character creation or adjustments only. Pity. I've used
Poser since 1998, and that is MUCH longer than most people here. With a few exceptions, of
course! :)

Greywolf

(Big fat disclosure that I'll spit up before I say another word - I used to work for DAZ, and on DAZ|Studio). D|S and Poser each have their strengths and weaknesses. Poser's strength is its longevity, and the fact that it does have some nice tools built-in (AOL/IBL lighting, Joint and Material editing, etc). It can also pretty much read any Poser-formatted file out there without conversion. Poser's weaknesses? Dynamic Hair/Clothing is nice, but will eat a lot of extra CPU cycles and takes a lot of work to get working and looking right. This is not to say that they're useless, but be sure to budget the extra time. It takes longer to load, longer to render, and is a bit heavier on system resources. A lot of this can be mitigated however by having lots of external runtimes (while keeping the built-in one as small as possible), and throttling back some of the render and other settings. D|S Strengths? I'll have to list 'em: * It costs very little. Sure, if you want more than just basic functionality, you need to purchase plug-ins, but this allows you to get only what you want/need from it, instead of having to buy an entire suite loaded with things that you mostly won't use. Many former plugins (e.g. D-Form, which is an advanced magnet/morph-maker) are now free. * It goes easier on the computer's resources. I can happily run the latest version of DAZ|Studio with very little slow-down at all on an old Dell Inspiron Pentium III 866 MHz laptop with only 512 MB of RAM. This includes building scenes with, say, Vicky 4 in it. Only Poser 4 could keep up speed-wise on such puny computer specifications. * It has a better codebase. With its modular foundation, it can be built upon and remain flexible for a long time to come. It was written from the ground up to be compatible with Windows and OSX (and even Linux should they decide to port it), becuase it uses straight-up C++ and Qt, both of which are universal across platform types. This means that it behaves more consistently whether you're on a Mac or in Windows. Because of the discipline that the coding team put into place, it is almost completely free of the cruft and kludges that come back to haunt most programmers as time goes by. (while this paragraph is of little use to users, it does translate to better performance and more stability over time). D|S does have a few weaknesses, however: It lacks some of the tools that Poser comes with (most notably dynamics), though this is changing. It also has to translate files written for Poser. While it does so very well, there are likely to be a few Poser files that will give it trouble from time to time (e.g. *.obz, *.pzz, and the like). I use Poser for compatibility testing, and little else nowadays. Even though my Mac can run either without slowing down much, D|S has a much better response for me, and I already know it inside and out (I know Poser almost as well, but chalk it up to my biases :) ). Cheers! /P

Curious to know why the ability to adjust joint parameters has never been made available even after this length of time. DS must be able to read them since it can manipulate the models. Was it because it was felt that it would be too difficult for users to comprehend?

Not really sure, myself... I was thinking because (earlier on in development) they thought they would simply convert it all to weightmapped skeleton rigs anyway. It wouldn't take too awful much to rig up some sort of interface to manipulate the parameters, but in all honesty, how many users (as a percentage) would even use it? Something to play with idea-wise, though... /P

Dynamic cloth is THE ONLY way to have natural looking cloth. Anything "conforming" looks like comic-garment for "Poser-puppies". Ballons on the shoulderparts, distortions everywhere, the need for additional morphs and magnets most time, bad results with critical poses, whetever more.

If a mesh is made to be used as dynamic cloth it isn't hard to use. Don't compare good dynamic cloth with meshes designed to be used as conformer and just converted to work with the clothroom.

---

I create my own Poser stuff as well as modify existing meshes from the ground up.

For me D|S is just a device to hook new Poser "consumers" to DAZ stuff.
Practically everything that allows you to create and express yourself as an individual Poser artist is locked away from you because DAZ thinks there is no money in it.

What made Poser great is it's accessibility.
All you need is a text editor and you can go exploring.
From a programmers point of view D|S might be more "elegant", but practically everybody can read and understand a cr2 because it's a simple text file as opposed to some esoteric "ds" file.

That's how all the great Poser innovations were made we enjoy now : Lots of "normal" people tinkering around with Poser stuff just to see what happens.

With D|S, innovation is reserved to a handfull of DAZ programmers whose goal it is of course to maximize DAZ revenue, not to maximize the individuals artists ability to express himself.

I'm completely opposed against the idea that stands behind D|S as well as Victoria 4.1:
To infantilize the average Poser user, take away options from him, and turn him into a well trained good little consumer who just laps up the latest "new and exiting" offers DAZ throws in his way.

But we're now here where we are because Poser has given 3D to the masses.
Because it at least in the beginning was a true grassroots DIY movement.
And D|S and V4.1 which are both created with the consumer in mind instead of the creative artist are diametrical opposed to that "3D for EVERYBODY" ideology.

With D|S you have no other option than to BUY stuff because you simply can't do the things you can do for yourself in Poser.
With V4.1 you also have no option as to BUY stuff because she's become so complicated that you need high-end tools to really "make her your own".

V4.1 is "de facto" closed source now, that's why we will see a lot less really new stuff in the future as opposed fto  what people were able to do with V3 or the other Unimeshes.

Let's see what the future brings:
Crippled "Pose" programs like D|S and meshes like V4.1 that hardly can walk under their own weight because they were designed especially for those crippled programs and treat you like a child by adding tons of training wheels to make them "easy to work with for everybody including your four year old niece".
Or programs that respect you by giving you all the options for a very fair price and the ability to create meshes that actually look and bend like a human being using the latest Poser tech yet keeping their easy acessibility for everyone by not pandering to the lowest common denominator.

There WILL be a rift in the Poserverse, that's for sure, so you should choose which side you want to be with very carefully.

Just yesterday I made a new expression morph for V2LO with the Poser 7 morphbrush because none of the premade morphs could give me the result I needed.
It took just a few minutes and it was so heartbreakingly EASY after all those years fiddling around with magnets or exporting to a modeller only to work with a static object.

I pity D|S users who have to buy an "Expression" plugin or a "Deformer" plugin and still won't get close to the results I so easily could get directly inside Poser.

If you ever create your very first OWN item, be it a pose, a morph, a new prop or even a completely new figure, something NOONE else has because YOU did it, there's no way going back.

Quote -

If you ever create your very first OWN item, be it a pose, a morph, a new prop or even a completely new figure, something NOONE else has because YOU did it, there's no way going back.

 

Bravo, well said.  I am a classic artist, so the whole make button art thing bothers me, he lack of true creation tools at this juncture feels like an agenda.  Why think a solution to a poser issue, or make your own thing?  Buy something new at out 99 cent sale....

In most traditional circles poser art is treated with disdain for its "pose dolls" theory, they dont see the hard work going into it.  DS seems to make it even moreso int hat direction.  

mind you its great for tyhose wanting to play or use it for game characters and I have seen some lovely stuff.. (and I really, really hate posers waste of spce GUI)  but you really have to support the freedom to create and modify, at least I do because I don't want a modeller telling me what is possible in my own imagination.

just my thoughts, 

Quote - What made Poser great is it's accessibility.
All you need is a text editor and you can go exploring.
From a programmers point of view D|S might be more "elegant", but practically everybody can read and understand a cr2 because it's a simple text file as opposed to some esoteric "ds" file.

Fair enough - to a point. OTOH, some things you may not have known offhand: * the scripting SDK is free for D|S, and goes in-depth as to not only how to create your own plugins w/ script, but explains the inner workings of each file type, and the inner workings of the program itself. This alone mitigates the accessibility problem that you mentioned. * *.ds files are plain-text scripts. You're thinking fo the .daz scene file, methinks. * for ~$100.00, anyone can get the full programming SDK if desired, which pretty much gives anyone who can do programming full internal access to D|S. With Poser, you either cough up a massive five-to-six-figure check, or get told to go learn Python. * With the Poser Format Exporter plugin, I can export a scene to .cr2 (or any other Poser-style text file), hack it, then re-load it to taste. The plugin is free for download. * Poser itself has non-ASCII file types now (most notably .obz, .pzz, .crz, etc). This all means that the following is statement certainly not true: "With D|S, innovation is reserved to a handfull of DAZ programmers whose goal it is of course to maximize DAZ revenue, not to maximize the individuals artists ability to express himself." Again, that's not true. I can even go one step further - D|S offers encryption for files and scripts that you build, which lets you (as an option) protect your assets from being ripped-off. The reason for the different file formats isn't to lock-in anything - they're there for increase efficiency and organization within the file. > Quote - To infantilize the average Poser user, take away options from him, and turn him into a well trained good little consumer who just laps up the latest "new and exiting" offers DAZ throws in his way.

Eh? Both companies exist to maximize profit... even Poser's (whomever owns it this year, anyway). > Quote - With D|S you have no other option than to BUY stuff because you simply can't do the things you can do for yourself in Poser.

...as opposed to buying Poser for a far higher price, then buying Python-based scripts for things you cannot otherwise do in it (e.g. Wardrobe Wizard)? > Quote - With V4.1 you also have no option as to BUY stuff because she's become so complicated that you need high-end tools to really "make her your own".

Example, please. Just one. > Quote - There WILL be a rift in the Poserverse, that's for sure, so you should choose which side you want to be with very carefully.

Nah - D|S can still import nearly all of Poser's stuff, and with a little work and $100, Poser's coding team can make code that will import D|S native files. Question is, will Poser do so? > Quote - Just yesterday I made a new expression morph for V2LO with the Poser 7 morphbrush because none of the premade morphs could give me the result I needed.

It took just a few minutes and it was so heartbreakingly EASY after all those years fiddling around with magnets or exporting to a modeller only to work with a static object.

To duplicate the same action in D|S, I merely use the (free) D-Form plugin (which is flexible enough to do so with a little more work), then export the morph with the Morph Exporter plugin. Poser built the Morph Brush because D-Form existed. It's a minor arms race of sorts - first there was Poser Magnets. Then D-Form. Now Morph Brush. I suspect there will be an equivalent soon for D|S... and so it goes. If it wasn't for the competition, Morph Brush would never have existed. > Quote - I pity D|S users who have to buy an "Expression" plugin or a "Deformer" plugin and still won't get close to the results I so easily could get directly inside Poser.

Let's see the results... A long time ago, someone tried to make a certain reflection map pattern in GIMP that was made in Photoshop, but failed and proclaimed that GIMP was inferior and useless because of it. I duplicated the pattern and colors exactly in about 45 mintues... with GIMP. It took that long becuase I wanted to get as close as humanly possible and cast off many candidates, until I got it just right. Thing is, being used to one set of tools does not automatically mean that any other tool is inferior to the one you use. It is simply a matter of grokking how the new tool works. For instance, If I've been used to using a jigsaw and a drill to cut wood and drywall, then of course I'm going to look at a rotary cutter and think "hah! that's only one (unfamiliar-looking) tool, and it's inferior" - until I see it being used by someone who took the time to learn how to use the thing... and realize that he can get the job done in half the time, with better results, and greater flexibility. Same story here, really... lots of folks who spent a LOT of time learning how Poser works, and suddenly here comes this unfamiliar thing that can do a lot, with a lot less time and effort, and with incredible results if the artist took the time to get in deep with figuring it out. It makes one defensive, and start pointing to esoteric bits and bobs to extrapoalte them into larger claims. We have a similar phenomenon in the computer world - we call it fanboyism. After all, we as individuals have an urge to justify the time and money spent on something. Perfect example: A Windows-certified MCSE spent a whole lot of time and money learning his trade, and doesn't want to have to cast it all aside and start over when the server room starts switching over to Linux. So, he has two choices - either learn the new way early enough to keep his skill (and monetary) value high, or get angry and start bad-mouthing the new thing, pushing it out wherever and whenever he can... even if it makes no sense to do so. Me, I find at least some use in both, and previous work w/ DAZ aside, present my arguments for and against each. Poser is established. It has more features... for now. But it has a higher price and eats system resources like a glutton at an all-you-can-eat buffet. D|S is cheaper, lighter, faster, more internally sound... but it lacks a few features still, and some may not like the a-la-carte plugin pricing. You picks your favorite and sticks with it, or you can embrace both (with D|S, it's increadibly easy to get and use both if you already have Poser... D|S' base app is free). /P

"Poser itself has non-ASCII file types now (most notably .obz, .pzz, .crz, etc)."

These are simply the ASCII files compressed using GZip.

It's the D|S users that you can accuse of fanboyism, not the Poser users, because they are the ones who try to rationalize a crippled and incomplete program as being an actual "option" comparable to Poser.

I couldn't care less about EF or SM or whoever currently owns Poser.
If someone brings out a program tomorrow that could do everything Poser can but a lot better, I would switch in a heartbeat.
But I'm only willing to switch if the new program would give me more options, not less.
And create more realistic looking characters, not "Aiko realistic" wannabees.

The beauty of Poser is that YOU DON'T NEED TO BE A PROGRAMMER to open and hack a cr2 file. All you need to do is know how to read.

And yes, Poser uses python to execute scripts. Have you checked lately how many FREE python scripts for Poser are out there ?

So that DAZ gives away the D|S SDK for free while you have to pay for Poser's is completely irrelevant, because "normal people", i.e those without a programming background wouldn't know what to do with it anyway.
BTW, ".obz, .pzz, .crz, etc" are just zipped obj, pz2 and cr2 files. Just disable file compression and they're gone.

And comparing the P7 Morphbrush with D|S "D-Formers" ?
Well, I guess then you better DO stick with D|S if you can't recognize the difference and what breakthrough the morphbrush is for Poser users who want more realism.

Yes, maybe one day D|S will be able to read morphs BEFORE it reads joint parameters so they can provide the same functionality as the morphbrush, but then they'll still be stuck with magnet infested V4.1 and their derivates.

Speaking of V4.1, I could give you dozends of examples where she is inferior over V3, but here are two very obvious ones:
There were a lot of V3 hybrids out there: V3's head on Posette's body, V3's head on V2's body, V3's head on Judy's body.
Why ? Because all those figure's heads, mouths and tounges were a single part so that they are easy to swap among them.
No extra rigging or complicated cr2 editing involved.

Now with V4.1, you get a head, upper teeth, lower teeth, and SEVEN tounge parts, all individually rigged.
Try to put V4.1s head on another body and you suddenly find yourself confronted with a a lot of extra rigging and cr2 editing necessary without any measurable benefit over more "simple" figures like V3.

Another example:
A lot of people made free textures for V3. A V3 texture is fairly easy to make in Photoshop because all major body parts are scaled similar so it's easy to paint over seams.
Now with V4.1 the bodyparts are scaled all over the place. Result: Without buying a full fledged 3d painting program it is impossible to create a proper V4.1 texture without noticeable seams.

I predict there will be A LOT less (If any) V4.1 hybrids out there, and a lot less free V4.1 textures.

And the ironic thing is that neither "modern" D|S nor "modern" V4.1 can deliver one iota more realism over "ancient" Poser and V3.

Nope, DAZ started a race for the bottom line, because that's where they think the money is.

The Poserverse is so big not because of DAZ or Renderosity or any other marketplace.
It's big because Poser made it possible for each and everyone to participate because it gives you all tools necessary to truly CREATE.

And only a program that gives you all options and doesn't lock the "non-professionals" out will keep it that way.

As for morphbrush examples, let's try to create a morph like this in D|S with "D-Forms"

BTW, it's not V4.1, it's V4RR, a reduced resolution version of V4 I created myself and then used a FREE Poser python script (All praise Cage and Spanki !) to transfer the expression morphs over from V4.1 to V4RR.

I gave up on the project because even though I usually know how to hack a cr2, I couldn't find a way to edit the plethora of joint smoothing magnets to create a matching body.

Aw, and here I was thinking that we'd all nicely suggest that Jetstream try both programs and choose whichever one he prefers? Guess it's time to be really honest then...

    "they are the ones who try to rationalize a crippled and incomplete program as being an actual "option" comparable to Poser."

Give me a break, at least it doesn't have a ludicrous interface, a trial-and-error light positioning system, limited cameras, and a material room so overly complex that only a fraction of it's users know even half of what it can do. Not to mention it's a resource hog and it took years to finally implement multiple undos.

    "Speaking of V4.1, I could give you dozends of examples where she is inferior over V3"

Oh? V4's expression morphs are vastly superior to V3's, she is no longer built like a linebacker, and (argueably) she bends and poses better.

    "And the ironic thing is that neither "modern" D|S nor "modern" V4.1 can deliver one iota more realism over "ancient" Poser and V3."

This is completely dependent on the user, not the program. The bottom line is what any particular user is able to do with the program they choose. I used Poser since the first version, and I am better with DAZ Studio than I ever was with Poser. Stick to the facts; yes Poser has rigging tools and other features that DAZ Studio does not, but saying DAZ Studio is 'crippled' or cannot produce art as well as Poser can is simply not true.

SnowS

my DeviantArt page: http://snowsultan.deviantart.com/

 

I do not speak as a representative of DAZ, I speak only as a long-time member here. Be nice (and quit lying about DAZ) and I'll be nice too.

Quote - "Poser itself has non-ASCII file types now (most notably .obz, .pzz, .crz, etc)."

These are simply the ASCII files compressed using GZip.

True, though not all of them work as easily. Similar IMHO to the whole .rsr thing... take a common format and modify the headers (e.g..rsr files are just PICT files with changed headers). -- > Quote - It's the D|S users that you can accuse of fanboyism, not the Poser users, because they are the ones who try to rationalize a crippled and incomplete program as being an actual "option" comparable to Poser.

I'm not going into any arguments as to one side vs. the other, because both sides have the same problem. > Quote - The beauty of Poser is that YOU DON'T NEED TO BE A PROGRAMMER to open and hack a cr2 file. All you need to do is know how to read.

Err, I don't in either program - export the .cr2 file in either program, open and mess around with it, then load it back in either program. What part of this do you not grok? As for being simple? Err, no. Not unless you instinctively know what deltas are, how joint parameters work, how to calculate Quaternian Rotation... things like that. In a (typically) tens of MB large ASCII file that requires something other than notepad to operate in w/o errors. At best, about 0.01% of Poser and D|S combined userbase would want to dig into the mess and fogure it down. In both cases, they can, but it's not pretty, nor is it the artists' panacea that you're proclaiming it as. > Quote - And yes, Poser uses python to execute scripts. Have you checked lately how many FREE python scripts for Poser are out there ?

Sure - for something that's been around since the mid-1990s, one would expect this. Interestingly enough, both programs have that in common - a lot of free scripts to do useful stuff. > Quote - So that DAZ gives away the D|S SDK for free while you have to pay for Poser's is completely irrelevant, because "normal people", i.e those without a programming background wouldn't know what to do with it anyway.

Indeed - it's the same with being able to hack a .cr2 file... those who don't know what a normal or delta is, or how UV maps or materials work... meh. It's a wash. Now for those who really want to make it go? Look at it this way - imagine how much faster, say, Wardrobe Wizard would run if it were ported for either program as a native-speed plugin, and not just a script? > Quote - Well, I guess then you better DO stick with D|S if you can't recognize the difference and what breakthrough the morphbrush is for Poser users who want more realism.

Now you're just descending into fanboyism, because that's not what I wrote at all. I said that one can emulate the other, and that there is an 'arms race' of sorts concerning that feature. "and so it goes"... > Quote - Speaking of V4.1, I could give you dozends of examples where she is inferior over V3, but here are two very obvious ones:

Okay, let's see: > Quote - There were a lot of V3 hybrids out there: V3's head on Posette's body, V3's head on V2's body, V3's head on Judy's body.

No new news here. Go look at Nanana for V4: http://ken1171.deviantart.com/art/Nanana-Pinup-55868377?offset=30 http://blog.zgock-lab.net/poser/nanana-kai/ (scroll down a bit) You get a custom-built body part lashed onto another body altogether. The only complaint I see you having is that there's more parts involved. That lends towards flexibility as well as complexity, so it's a wash overall. If you want to continue using V3's head on something else, no one is stopping you from doing so. Also, I thought your complaint was (earlier) that things are too 'dumbed-down'? Now you complain about complexity? I don't get it... > Quote - A lot of people made free textures for V3. A V3 texture is fairly easy to make in Photoshop because all major body parts are scaled similar so it's easy to paint over seams. Now with V4.1 the bodyparts are scaled all over the place. Result: Without buying a full fledged 3d painting program it is impossible to create a proper V4.1 texture without noticeable seams.

Err, again... you're complaining about complexity? Okay, forget I said that. IMHO, all it would take is to figure down the scaling diffs (not hard to do at all, and I can use GIMP's measuring tool and a calculator for that), publish them, and you're all set. Build once and run many. Ever seen a professional high-end texmap? You'd cringe in utter horror at the wild variety of scaling and layouts on just one figure. One of the project leads @ work just got done paying $4k for a fully textured head... a head. The head skin, the eyes, the irises, the tongue, the teeth... all had wildly different scaling (but the rendered results? Hooly sh!t it was good...) I can gratefully defer to SnowSultan for the rest of it :) Bottom line - any new user should try both programs (Poser still has a demo mode, yes?) and choose which one he or she prefers. /P

Yes, I DO complain about complexity.

And the reason for all that complexity is that DAZ tries to dumb Poserverse down to make more $$$.
No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials.
No need to learn how to scale, just use one of V4.1's "morphforms"
No need to learn how to compose an expression, just use one of V4.1's built in expression presets.

It's all so utterly "convenient".

It's like fitting every car with an automatic transmission because SOME people can't be bothered to learn how to shift.
Or turning every ISP into AOL because SOME people are scared of the WWW.

The result of all this "dumbing down" and giving you a "better Poser expierience"?
A mesh that is way more complicated internally and much more prone to breakage.
V4.1 is Murphy's Law in action, but people only see the new shoulders and the sexy default bodyshape.

And no, more parts does not mean more flexibility.
Seperate buttocks, good. Seperate waist, good also.
Double jointed shoulders ? Not really usefull any more.
Seperate teeth and fully articulated tounge ?
Absolutely not worth the hassle.

BTW, NaNaNa is a custom head or a morphed A3 head on a V4 body, so there is no need to re-rig anything.
But try putting V4.1's head on A3's body and keep all her erc controlled head morphs as well as the teeth and tounge rigging, that's when the "fun" starts.

I couldn't care less about what program or what meshes anyone uses, but the Poserverse DOES spin around DAZ and the latest V-Chick.
So if DAZ makes it too hard to create free textures for V4.1, then there will be a lot less free textures, period.
And if all the newbies get suckered into joining the D|S bandwagen, a lot of hidden talents will never have a chance to develop.

You seem to share DAZ cynical stance that just because only a few people actually use the options that Poser gives them, they should be taken away from everybody.
But people can stick to using nothing but premade content  just fine in Poser.
But IF one bright day they wake up and say to themselves:
"Hmm, all those face morphs really start to look the same to me. Let's see what this morphbrush thingy can do..."
Then they have all the tools readily at hand to become creative themselves.

In D|S, as it is now, this simply won't happen.
You either make do with what DAZ thinks is good for you, or constantly plead in the forums for some of the "professionals" to do it for you.

A cage is a cage, even if it comes with golden bars or a fancy "modern" GUI.

And for my creativity, D|S IS a cage, because it doesn't allow me to do the things I want.

Quote - No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials.

At this point I think I'll stop... you're simply not making sense anymore. There are no "integrated pose dials". You still have to know how a human body reacts to its environment before you can compose it. Man... you need to lose your hate. /P

Maybe I'm old fashioned but the way I see it, if you don't like something, you don't buy and/or use it.  Simple, really. :biggrin:

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V4 body actor with integrated pose dials

"At this point I think I'll stop... you're simply not making sense anymore. There are no "integrated pose dials". You still have to know how a human body reacts to its environment before you can compose it."

Yes, I completely agree. We should better stop before things get too embarrassing for one of us. ;-)

I think JoePublic eloquently expresses a point of view, passionately expresses that point of view. Hatefully expresses that point of view? Not so much.

When we were putting together Wardrobe Wizard we were faced with what to do about adjusting joint parameters. I knew there was no one size fits all. I knew it would be an issue that may "scare" off potential customers, however my gut feeling was that Poser folks are not babies. Much of the joy of working in 3D is that it is not easy so the sense of accomplishment when learning a new skill is all the more sweet. I put out tutorials, videos. I answer email questions and forum posts. Provided people are clearly taught it is clear to me that they enjoy to learn. Judging by the sales figures I feel I was right. I get emails like, "Thanks for explaining it to me, was not that difficult after all."

I get similar questions from DAZ Studio folks. Unfortunately all I can say to them is either wait until you can purchase that plugin for your free Poser file viewer or buy Poser.

To answer the original question of which application jetstream should go with, best to decide what you want the application to be used for. If you just want to view and pose your Poser files and enjoy a good render engine then stick with your freebie. If on the other hand you want to take your 3D creativity into avenues that DAZ Studio does not cater for then consider purchasing Poser.

I hope both programs continue to develop and progress for years to come, and both enjoy a sizeable userbase that will keep the companies that own them making a tidy profit.

Why?  Simple - competition is a good thing, a very good thing, for both programs.  Daz Studio does not yet have some of the features that poser does, but then again daz studio is a pretty young program in comparision.

Poser has more features overall, but in some instances the user interface can be clunky and some of the features (most notably the "face room") are so poorly implemented that they are nearly useless.   

As Daz Studio improves Poser must also improve to stay current and competitive, and vice versa.  Each time a new feature or a better interface is developed the opposing side must take notice, and do what they can to improve their own program to prevent it from becoming obsolete.

As to which is "better" at this point in time, it depends entirely on your application and experience.  For me, I've been working with Poser for a while now so I'm pretty familiar with it and as such it's fairly easy for me to do about 90% of what I want in poser relatively quickly.

If DS improves to the point where they have all the features that I want I might consider giving them a look - but for now it really isn't in the cards for me.  However your application and experience are probably much different than my own, so DS might be a better option for you personally.

Case in point, I have access to a full version of 3ds max, however I don't really use it all that often. Why?  Because I don't do much modelling and usually when I am working with a mesh it's normally only to make minor corrections.  As such I generally use a freebie program called wings 3d far more often than I do 3ds max.

Now 3ds max has features that Wings 3d couldn't even begin to duplicate, and it's a far more powerful program.  Comparing the two is like comparing a cap pistol to a nuclear weapon, they are just on two totally different scales as far as power and flexibility are concerned.

However for the most part all I need for most of what I do with meshes is a "cap pistol".  A simple edit here or there is generally all that I require, and as such Wings 3d does the job quite well.  I can accomplish things quickly because less features also mean a lot less menu options to be sifting through to find the one I need.

If I were modeling something complex, like a car or an airplane, I'd probably haul out 3ds max and use it instead - it has features that make such modelling far easier.  However for a quick edit here or there Wings 3d is more practical for my purposes.  

You might find such is the case as well with yourself and Daz Studio.  If what your doing is mostly rendering and you don't really need most of the features Poser has that DS does not, then DS might be a good option for you.  But really this is entirely in the eye of the beholder.  It will depend on your needs, your experience and your workflow.  

Just my 2 cents worth.

I think the "combatants" frightened away the original post starter IMHO anyone who immediately mentions editing joint parameters in one of these discussions is in the slight minority of poser users i consider "advanced". let alone "hacking a CR2" I still firmly believe more than 51 % of poser users are : BUY-LOAD-RENDER using the canned hair,clothes,poses and most time canned lights perhaps with some slight variation of the canned poses. so to be frank D/S is the Ideal free solution for the majority especially someone who has only now exjted the crumbling cave of P4!! (Disclosure) I use Maxon Cinema4D +interposer pro linked to 2 poser runtimes and Vue will like NEVER buy another version of poser beyond P6 and D/S is just a free toy for me to fiddle with occasionally.

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Quote - ...I still firmly believe more than 50 % of poser users are : BUY-LOAD-RENDER using the canned hair,clothes,poses and most time canned lights perhaps with some slight variation of the canned poses...

 

Yup.

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Quote -
There WILL be a rift in the Poserverse, that's for sure, so you should choose which side you want to be with very carefully.

pppttthhhttthhhttt!
Yeah, there's something to lay awake at night worrying about. (Sadly there are probably those here who do...)
Seriously, thanks for the laugh, that's definitely the funniest thing I read or heard today.

Quote - > Quote - No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials.

At this point I think I'll stop... you're simply not making sense anymore. There are no "integrated pose dials". You still have to know how a human body reacts to its environment before you can compose it. Man... you need to lose your hate. /P

Hey Pengy, be careful man, you're kinda sounding like one of those D|S people shudder
I've always respected your insight and opinions greatly from Poser to Politics and everything in between, but don't make me choose... you're walking the edge of that rift, man.
I'm just trying to help. Don't find yourself on the Wrong Side.
;)

and of course those "Pose" dials negate you from being able to do it manually? :rolleyes: and you can pose the whole figure using them? sorry this seems like a huge rationalization for not liking a figure. just like your assumtion that just becouse their are unified expression morphs people can't use the components of those expressions individually. take a look, not only does this not limit expressions, there are actually more choices for fine tuning expressions than in V3. Yes DAZ offers ease of use dials, but they aren't forcing you to use them, nor are they huge space hogs becouse all they are are erc code which adds very little to the size of the cr2. and No offense but you calling DAZ Studio users fanboys is like the Pot calling the Kettle black.

Quote -
Yes, I DO complain about complexity.

And the reason for all that complexity is that DAZ tries to dumb Poserverse down to make more $$$.
No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials.
No need to learn how to scale, just use one of V4.1's "morphforms"
No need to learn how to compose an expression, just use one of V4.1's built in expression presets.

It's all so utterly "convenient".

It's like fitting every car with an automatic transmission because SOME people can't be bothered to learn how to shift.
Or turning every ISP into AOL because SOME people are scared of the WWW.

The result of all this "dumbing down" and giving you a "better Poser expierience"?
A mesh that is way more complicated internally and much more prone to breakage.
V4.1 is Murphy's Law in action, but people only see the new shoulders and the sexy default bodyshape.

Oh that's hilarious too.
This is like some kind of twilight Zone thread here. DAZ is bad because they limit creativity...
You really ought to see some of the very interesting Poser discussions that go on at CG Talk. ;)

Man I really regret avoiding this forum for so long, it's so much fun!

See MikeJ's post above for the quote I would have put here but didn't want to waste the bandwidth.

Yeah, that amused me when I read that the first time as well.... as visions of numerous threads at other websites and the flow on effects those threads create here spring to mind.

Dreams are just nightmares on prozac...
Digital WasteLanD

Tormentor wrote;
*"DS has a different strategy, it has no initial cost but if you want to do something you've to pay for the addons... I really don't like that..."
*So you'd rather pay for things you don't need or want? Not me.

JoePublic wrote;
"I pity D|S users who have to buy an "Expression" plugin"
You don't need to buy an Expression plugin.

"or a "Deformer" plugin "
You don't need to buy a Deformer plugin, it's built into DAZ Studio. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? :)

*"There WILL be a rift in the Poserverse, that's for sure"
*Only because of people with attitudes like yours.

*"The Poserverse is so big not because of DAZ or Renderosity or any other marketplace."
*You're absolutely wrong there.

*"No need to learn how to scale, just use one of V4.1's "morphforms"
*So you don't use dials to scale in Poser? I always did.

*"No need to learn how to pose correctly, just flip one of V4.1 integrated pose dials."
*So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pose sets for sale in the Marketplace?

*"No need to learn how to compose an expression, just use one of V4.1's built in expression presets."
*So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds of expression sets for sale in the Marketplace?

C'mon, now you're just making yourself look ridiculous.

"Seperate teeth and fully articulated tounge ?"
Maybe not to you, but they are to a lot of people. You're just being nitpicky.

*"I couldn't care less about what program or what meshes anyone uses"
*Really? You sure fooled me by your posts.

*"So if DAZ makes it too hard to create free textures for V4.1, then there will be a lot less free textures, period."
*It's not too hard, it's just more work, plus, you can get more detail in the maps, which was the idea behind the map layout. I remember people complaining when Vicky came out with a head map that was seperate from the body. That's progress.

"*But IF one bright day they wake up and say to themselves:
"Hmm, all those face morphs really start to look the same to me. Let's see what this morphbrush thingy can do..."
*Or they could just use the D-Formers built into DAZ Studio.

*"V4.1 is Murphy's Law in action"
*Actually, I'd say your posts were.......

*"V4 body actor with integrated pose dials"
*Yeah, moving two parts at the same time will destroy all creativity and learning! OMG!!! Somebody send word to my Aunt Jenny who lives under the stairs!

Hmmm, let's see here, adds JoePublic to list of official Poser fanboys.......

Coldrake

 

 

 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - I've always respected your insight and opinions greatly from Poser to Politics and everything in between, but don't make me choose... you're walking the edge of that rift, man.

I'm just trying to help. Don't find yourself on the Wrong Side.
;)

Are you guys being serious??? "Poserverse"................"wrongside"??? This thread is hilarious!!!

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"You don't need to buy an Expression plugin."
I'm pretty sure there are D|S users out there who even find V4.1's expression dials too inconvenient too use.
Ok, maybe a few Poser users, too.

"You don't need to buy a Deformer plugin, it's built into DAZ Studio. Ignorance is bliss, isn't it? :)"
So DAZ turned D-Forms into a freebie then ?
I hope they gave those folks who bought it when it was first issued their money back, then.*

*"Only because of people with attitudes like yours."
What attitude ? Oh you mean the "I don't believe every salesman's pitch" attitude.

*"You're absolutely wrong there."
Actually I'm not. Some things do develop without the "help" of capitalism. The Poser community is actually a wee bit older than the marketplaces.

*"So you don't use dials to scale in Poser? I always did."
Scale dials ? What scale dials ? Oh, you mean  V4.1's invisible "We had to lock them away for your own good" scaledials.

*"So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pose sets for sale in the Marketplace?"
They do. But just because a lot of OTHER people do it, doesn't make it right, does it ?

*"So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds of expression sets for sale in the Marketplace?"
See above.

"C'mon, now you're just making yourself look ridiculous."
Only to those who prefer convenience over creative freedom.

"Maybe not to you, but they are to a lot of people. You're just being nitpicky."
Give me a single benefit that a jointed tounge has over a morphed one. Just a single one.

*"Really? You sure fooled me by your posts."
You seem to be easily fooled, aren't you ? Wait, you seem to be a D|S user...well, nevermind...

*"It's not too hard, it's just more work, plus, you can get more detail in the maps, which was the idea behind the map layout. I remember people complaining when Vicky came out with a head map that was seperate from the body. That's progress."
No, that's not progress. That's just "Let's create a completely uncompatible new mapping so that we can sell lots of new textures and then convince people that they actually would need it"

*"Or they could just use the D-Formers built into DAZ Studio."
Please pay attention to what I write when you quote me. The Morphbrush and D-Forms aren't even in the same league.

*"Actually, I'd say your posts were......."
If you tried to be witty, better luck next time.

*"Yeah, moving two parts at the same time will destroy all creativity and learning! OMG!!! Somebody send word to my Aunt Jenny who live under the stairs!"
I hope they don't, although a lot of Poser and D|S users already feel entitled to have everything served to them on a silver plate.
It's nice to have training wheels, but one usually discards them if they aren't needed anymore.

"Hmmm, let's see here, adds JoePublic to list of official Poser fanboys......."
Hmmm. let's see here, adds Coldrake to list of official D|S fanboys......."

JoePublic  :-)

 

 

Quote -
Are you guys being serious???

"Poserverse"................"wrongside"???

This thread is hilarious!!!

Of course I wasn't being serious! 

Quote -
Some things do develop without the "help" of capitalism. The Poser community is actually a wee bit older than the marketplaces.

Yes, it is, but Poser wouldn't have maintained its momentum without the marketplaces, I don't think.
In the beginning, there were loads of freebies, some of which are still here, but might have dead links. People like PhilC and nerd and Traveler and others were making all kinds of free stuff and also making all kinds of discoveries and sharing all that, but the popularity of it and the fact that your average Poser user at the time didn't have access to good modeling programs, never mind the knowledge to use one, led to a strong need for more stuff.
And more, and more, and more and more and more...

Eventually, Poser's success itself created the various marketplaces, because capitalism doesn't "help" things along, it feeds off of a need. In this case that need was more and more stuff to plop into Poser.
It's symbiotic now. Poser and the Poser marketplaces exist because each of the other does.

""Only because of people with attitudes like yours."
*What attitude ? Oh you mean the "I don't believe every salesman's pitch" attitude."

No, I mean this kind of attitude.
***"For me D|S is just a device to hook new Poser "consumers" to DAZ stuff.

I'm completely opposed against the idea that stands behind D|S as well as Victoria 4.1:
To infantilize the average Poser user, take away options from him, and turn him into a well trained good little consumer who just laps up the latest "new and exiting" offers DAZ throws in his way.

Crippled "Pose" programs like D|S and meshes like V4.1 that hardly can walk under their own weight because they were designed especially for those crippled programs and treat you like a child by adding tons of training wheels to make them "easy to work with for everybody including your four year old niece".***

It's the D|S users that you can accuse of fanboyism, not the Poser users, because they are the ones who try to rationalize a crippled and incomplete program as being an actual "option" comparable to Poser.

***A cage is a cage, even if it comes with golden bars or a fancy "modern" GUI.

---

You seem to be easily fooled, aren't you ? Wait, you seem to be a D|S user...well, nevermind...""*

 ""You're absolutely wrong there."
*Actually I'm not. Some things do develop without the "help" of capitalism. The Poser community is actually a wee bit older than the marketplaces."

Yes, Some things do develop without the "help" of capitalism, but Poser wouldn't have grown to what it is today without the stores, like it or not, content is what drives the "Poserverse".

"So you don't use dials to scale in Poser? I always did."
*Scale dials ? What scale dials ? Oh, you mean  V4.1's invisible "We had to lock them away for your own good" scaledials.

V4.1's scale are dials hardly hidden, in the image you posted showing the "V4 body actor with integrated pose dials" the hand scale dial is right at the top of the image. You're telling me you can't find it? Lol!

"""So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of pose sets for sale in the Marketplace?"
They do. But just because a lot of OTHER people do it, doesn't make it right, does it ?"

Doesn't make it wrong either. I rarely use premade poses, but obviously a lot of people do.

""So Poser users don't buy any of the hundreds and hundreds of expression sets for sale in the Marketplace?"
See above."

You too.

""C'mon, now you're just making yourself look ridiculous."
Only to those who prefer convenience over creative freedom.

So you're saying posing 2 parts with one dial impinges on peoples creative freedom? Lol! You're hilarious!

""Maybe not to you, but they are to a lot of people. You're just being nitpicky."
*Give me a single benefit that a jointed tounge has over a morphed one. Just a single one."

I never said I was one of them.

""Really? You sure fooled me by your posts."
*You seem to be easily fooled, aren't you ? Wait, you seem to be a D|S user...well, nevermind...

No, I'm not easily fooled. If you couldn't care less about what program or what meshes anyone uses, why are you rambling on about about how bad DAZ Studio and V4 are?

""It's not too hard, it's just more work, plus, you can get more detail in the maps, which was the idea behind the map layout. I remember people complaining when Vicky came out with a head map that was seperate from the body. That's progress."
*No, that's not progress. That's just "Let's create a completely uncompatible new mapping so that we can sell lots of new textures and then convince people that they actually would need it""

So you think we should go back to the old way of mapping like the Poser 3 figures with everything on a single map? Yeah, THAT'S a good idea....... Oh, and I didn't realize all the figures that EF sells use the same maps as the figures that come with Poser. I stand corrected. Since you seem to have missed it the first time, I'll repeat it in bold for you.
You can get more detail in the maps, which was the idea behind the map layout.

""Or they could just use the D-Formers built into DAZ Studio."
Please pay attention to what I write when you quote me."

I did.

""Actually, I'd say your posts were......."
If you tried to be witty, better luck next time."

Hey, I was witty, it's not my fault you have no sense of humor.

""Yeah, moving two parts at the same time will destroy all creativity and learning! OMG!!! Somebody send word to my Aunt Jenny who live under the stairs!"
I hope they don't, although a lot of Poser and D|S users already feel entitled to have everything served to them on a silver plate.
*It's nice to have training wheels, but one usually discards them if they aren't needed anymore."

So now you're equating moving two parts with one dial to using training wheels? I equate it with better workflow and ease of use.

""Hmmm, let's see here, adds JoePublic to list of official Poser fanboys......."
Hmmm. let's see here, adds Coldrake to list of official D|S fanboys......."

Nope, I'm not a D|S fanboy, you haven't seen me once disparage Poser in any way, I never even said DAZ Studio was better. I like Poser, it's a great program. Each have their respective strengths and weaknesses. Some things Poser does better, some things DAZ Studio does better.

Coldrake

Quote - "Maybe not to you, but they are to a lot of people. You're just being nitpicky."
Give me a single benefit that a jointed tounge has over a morphed one. Just a single one.

With the morphed tongue, you are limited to exactly what the tongue can do by the combination of the stretching of the mesh and twisting of the mesh (and the texture applied). With the joints, you can do things like lift and extend the tongue by moving the origin -before- you start twisting and shaping it....giving you much better control over things. It's the same with articulated feet; most don't bother using it. Those who animate, and want or need a barefoot or sandal-shod character can find those extra few bones worth gold....and more importantly in my book, it gets rid of 'shovel foot', one of the key giveaways that a mesh is classic Poser. The tongue is another one, as most of the articulated ones have so much deformation from the morphs that by the time the tip does more than just touch the lips, there is so much texture distortion it looks like a slug trying to crawl down his/her throat. As mass physics and softbody dynamics are probably several versions away, if ever, they need to do things like bone the breasts, and use the morphs to shift the 'mass' around, not provide actual controlled movement....

Sorry DaleB, but a morphed tounge can do everything an articulated can. At least for the normal range of motions a human can do.
The problem you have is just that the default DAZ tounge morphs aren't very good.
You can easily control V3's tounge origin right in Poser.
Make the tounge a new group, add a magnet, let the magnet zone influence the tongue group only, and you can easily lift, scale, move, do whatever you want with the tounge.
Then save what you need as morphs.

Same with toes. The existing toe morphs are just not good, and 20 additional bodyparts give Poser a LOT more stuff to calculate while rendering.

Yes, you can theoretically "bone" anything and then double- joint every joint on top of that to get smoother transitions but then posing and scaling and morphing and cloth creation becomes very, very hard.

If you need a fully articulated  "super tounge" for a fetish or fantasy render, why not make a conforming tounge figure?
Something you can add to V4 when you need it, but that won't use your system's RAM or get in the way of morphing when you don't need it ?
You think V4.1's tounge is the bees knees ?
Regroup it into 20 or 30 sections, then add easypose controls.
THEN you'd have something special.

But make it an add-on and don't pollute the main cr2 with extra bones and bodyparts.
Keep the main cr2 as simple and rugged as possible.

Same with articulated toes. Easy to make a second set of toes that can be added with Poser's built in geometry switching. Then add the additional joints with a joint pose and you can let Vicky flip-flop along the beach to your hearts content.
But leave the default figure as simple as possible, because most of the time fully articulated toes are just not needed and just drain your system resources.

That would be SMART TECH.

DAZ threw every gadget they could think of at V4 and hoped it would stick.
And then they were surprised that she constantly crashes and burns at the slightest instance.

V3RR. Her tounge was scaled and moved around with a single magnet.

Quote - I think the "combatants" frightened away the original post starter IMHO anyone who immediately mentions editing joint parameters in one of these discussions is in the slight minority of poser users i consider "advanced". let alone "hacking a CR2" I still firmly believe more than 51 % of poser users are : BUY-LOAD-RENDER using the canned hair,clothes,poses and most time canned lights perhaps with some slight variation of the canned poses. so to be frank D/S is the Ideal free solution for the majority especially someone who has only now exjted the crumbling cave of P4!! (Disclosure) I use Maxon Cinema4D +interposer pro linked to 2 poser runtimes and Vue will like NEVER buy another version of poser beyond P6 and D/S is just a free toy for me to fiddle with occasionally.

 

I think that all Poser users start out that way, I certainly did.  But eventually you run into a situation where the canned buy load render doesn't quite fit the bill, and for some of us that means starting to branch out a bit and learning a bit more about meshes, textures, etc.. to get the desired effect.

Pretty soon you’re looking at modeling a few things on your own, and before you know it your starting to read up on CR2 files and how they work.  I must admit I've never tried Maxon's Cinema 4D - sadly my budget just can't keep up with all these great 3d rendering programs so I stick with poser for now.

I'll probably look at going to something a bit higher end eventually, but for now Poser does what I need it to do with a minimum of fuss and aggravation. As to the combative nature of some of the responses, whenever you ask a question on an internet forum about which software package is better you must expect at least 50% of the responses to be along these lines, it’s just the nature of the beast.

 

People have a tendency to get rather entrenched in the software they use. I remember not to long ago some folks got there knickers in a twist when I wrote a review of some image editing software called “The Gimp”. I had some nice things to say about the program and it didn’t sit well with some of the folks that read my article and were long time photoshop users.

 

Now I’m a long time photoshop user (in fact I’ve been using it for so long my first commercial copy was purchased under it’s original name of photostyler) and I’m certainly not going to be switching over to the Gimp anytime in the near future. Not that the Gimp isn’t a good program, but I’ve got a lot of time invested in photoshop, I know where the menu options are that I need and what the shortcut keys are that I use on a daily basis. But for someone that doesn’t currently own photoshop it’s a viable option, it’s a powerful program with a lot of desirable features at an unbeatable price – free. 

 

But while I can see the value of a program like the Gimp for others, a lot of people grow rather attached to their particular software and feel the need to defend their choice wholeheartedly. For me a software choice has never been that much of an emotional investment, but for others it often can be strangely enough.

 

@ JoePublic: Dear Lord, man... It's Monday morning, and you're still going out of your way to bad-mouth a program? Please, stop. It's beginning to embarrass the rest of us. Give it a rest... you've sunk to the point of inventing "problems" now just so you can claim superiority of the proggie you've chosen to stick with. What you're pointing at so excitedly are nitpicks, not deal-breakers. Perfect anagram: Vista bogs down computers that otherwise run faster with OSX on the same equivalent hardware... that's a deal-breaker for some. While Apple has competitively-priced hardware spec-for-spec, it's always higher-end spec... that's a deal-breaker for some. But... the average user doesn't know about or give a damn about the differences between UAC and graphical sudo (Apple's equivalent), and so spending hours upon hours arguing about them to convince some newbie to buy either a Mac or a new Windows box w/ Vista is not only silly... it's pointless fanboyism. Arguing over the overall direction you think (rightly or wrongly) each OS maker wants to take is silly, because unless you're Microsoft or Apple (or worked for either one of them directly), you simply have no clue what their visions are. Arguing over them to the extreme that you have is even dumber. It's real simple: If you don't like a program, then simply do not use it. The poor bastard who started this thread has prolly ran off into the night, screaming in terror that he's going to have to learn all of this or else never be able to use the thing. If you think the V4 file is too big and complex, then don't use it. Build your own figure, use one of Poser's default figures (RDNA supports them, as do a few others)... but really, you're arguing against logic now. I mean, when you write things like this:

Quote - If you need a fully articulated "super tounge" for a fetish or fantasy render, why not make a conforming tounge figure?

WTF? You think everyone should modify their workflow and have extra parts lying around the Runtime directory just so you can claim some sense of uber-l33t h4x0r type of improvisational superiority? EasyPose was a hack (albeit a good hack), and not The Way Forward (tm, pat. pending, etc). (Animating speech in a portrait figure requires some hella flexible tongue control so that it doesn't make the thing look like some cheap extension of Jabba The Hutt's arms... So what if it's a bigger .cr2 file? Deal.) 'k, morning ciggie is done. I'm off to work. Feel free to blow a couple of hours in replying if you wish... I'm done in this mess for awhile. /P

And here is V3RR with a little morphbrush work.

;-)

Penguinisto, this discussion would be so much better if you'd actually know what you're talking about.

I WANTED V4 to be good.
I WANTED to delete all my homemade custom work and instead use the best possible, ultra photorealistic, state of the art latest greatest DAZ mesh instead.

All technical points I brought against V4.1 are perfectly valid.
You think it's ok to sell inferior goods just because the average consumer won't notice anyway ?
How nice.

You think it's futile discussing better solutions in public because not everybody might understand ?

What you call "fanboyism" is the only way to change things in Poserdom. There are no consumer watchdog organisations that could test a product and give an unbiased view here.

Personally I'm perfectly happy with Poser 7 and my modified Unimesh figures. Of course I hope that Poser 8 will bring even better tools and that I'm able to improve my skills even more to create more realistic morphs.

But why should I lean back and just laugh at all those who fall for the DAZ hype ?
Who have to re-buy the same textures again just because DAZ decided that 2000 x 2000 textures aren't big enough.
Who have to postwork bad joints in Photoshop because DAZ decided that V4.1's rigging was "good enough".
Who have to wait hours for renders to finish because V4.1's gazillion mags uses up all their ram ?

If I truly would hate the "buy, load, render" crowd I would just snicker at them, do my own thing, and don't waste my time with such stupid discussions.

All I'm saying is that there are better ways to do things.
And I can back up each and any of my claims with a render.

DAZ has a defacto monopoly in Poserland, so the solution is not to "create my own mesh" (For the record I can model somewhat and know how to rig but I hate mapping.), or don't use D|S, but to make people aware what they are missing and make them ask for more quality.

And by the way, I say the same about EF-meshes.
Sydney is just a rehashed MIKI morph, and while MIKI-2 bends considerably better than MIKI-1, she still has a long way to go to be called "acceptable"
And in general the G2 series meshes are way below what could have been possible.

Check out JimFarris gallery and his modified Posette:
http://xaa.proboards44.com/index.cgi?board=posergallery

If he was able to create a Posette that bends better than any "professional" Poser mesh just by himself ,a how much better job DAZ and their professionial modellers using high-end equipment should have done ?

To be honest, I don't think that DAZ will change it's course anytime soon, unless there would be a mass exodus towards another mesh.
M4 will be rigged exactly like V4, and so will be A4 and any future derivate.

So unless someone appears who can match their advertising power, V4 will be the status quo in Poserdom for years to come.

As I said, personally I have everything I need, so I couldn't care less about what DAZ does or doesn't, or what anybody else uses to fill their renders.

But why shouldn't I try and find a few more disciples for the mysterious ways of the MORPHBRUSH once in a while?

At least it provides for some nice Monday morning (Actually evening) DRAMA.

;-)

BTW, what is wrong with a conforming hi-rez tounge ?
The unimesh folks all feature detacheable penises so that their manly bits won't get in the way when it's not needed.

Nothing l33t here, just finding a new usage for a tried and tested solution.

Quote - Maybe I'm old fashioned but the way I see it, if you don't like something, you don't buy and/or use it.  Simple, really. :biggrin:

 

We can't do things thataway.  It would just be.......too easy.

Ranting Crusades (with a capital "C") are more fun.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

BTW - I have Poser 7, D|S (base), and Carrara 6 Pro on my PC.  And I'll have Poser Pro once it comes out.

The programs all work for me in their own ways.  I......fail to see any of it as being a moral issue, to be charged into under flags of battle: cannons roaring and machine guns blazing.  It simply doesn't reach to that degree of importance.

Hey -- I even like V4.  :scared:  But I don't see choosing to use Sydney ((or Jessi, Miki, whoever)) instead as representing some sort of Great Evil that needs to be railed against on a public streetcorner.

[Edit] -- I have a greater interest in Carrara than I do in D|S.  I tend to see Carrara and Poser Pro as representing the future for what I might call the 'intermediate' 3D market, while D|S and possible future lower-tier versions of Poser will be aimed at the hobbyist market.  But that's all just IMO -- and is nothing but idle speculation on my part.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I always wonder about the modified possette ... Does anyone know if they are just render and go or if each of the bends involves going into the joint parameters for something specific to the render? Just wondering.

Also, everyone hated the idea of detatchable parts. Well, a lot of people.

Personally I like some of the things that DAZ Studio does but I don't like the program overall (part of that is the GUI and part of it was long documented issues I had with it and other things as well. But it does a good job in a lot of ways.

"I always wonder about the modified possette ... Does anyone know if they are just render and go or if each of the bends involves going into the joint parameters for something specific to the render? Just wondering."

AFAIK all the joint modifications Jim Farris made to his Posette are permanent and ERC controlled, just like those of V3 or V4.
That means the renders show exactly how she bends by herself when you pose her without any additional work.

But by using joint poses it wouldn't be actually hard to even switch joint parameters inbetween poses.
(And do the same for clothing)
Professional studios usally create several different rigs per figure because weightmapping isn't actually that flexible and perfect as some people seem to think.

I prefer to apply my morphbrush fix morphs either  manually or via a pose file because I don't trust an automated system and try to keep the base cr2 as simple as possible, but they could be easily ERC rigged just as well.

Quote - Penguinisto, this discussion would be so much better if you'd actually know what you're talking about.

Umm, yeeeah...  (in my best Office Space tone...)

Quote - I WANTED to delete all my homemade custom work and instead use the best possible, ultra photorealistic, state of the art latest greatest DAZ mesh instead.

Why? IF it works for you, great... but what works for you most likely doesn't work for 90% of the user population, let alone a newbie who is asking where to start (you remember, the original topic of this thread)?  You got so wrapped up in the hate that you lost sight of why this thread was posted in the first place.

Quote - All technical points I brought against V4.1 are perfectly valid.

...according to you, and based on subjective opinion to boot (which others seem to disagree with in here).

Quote - What you call "fanboyism" is the only way to change things in Poserdom. There are no consumer watchdog organisations that could test a product and give an unbiased view here.

I prefer the Free Market Approach, myself. If it works, I buy it. If it sucks, I don't. If it's in-between, then I think about it.

Certainly beats whining about a figure in a thread about apps, doesn't it? ;)

Quote - But why should I lean back and just laugh at all those who fall for the DAZ hype ?
Who have to re-buy the same textures again just because DAZ decided that 2000 x 2000 textures aren't big enough.

Eh? The typical texture image size -- no matter who made it-- is 4096x4096. On the professional CG side, I've seen mere head textures get that big (and bigger yet).

Quote - Who have to wait hours for renders to finish because V4.1's gazillion mags uses up all their ram ?

Err, in which program? Because (like I pointed out earlier), I have zero problems with rendering any mesh on a cranky old Pentium III w/ 512MB of RAM and a 16MB GeForce2Go. It may take a bit longer than it would on my Mac, but for obvious reasons.

Quote - DAZ has a defacto monopoly in Poserland, so the solution is not to "create my own mesh" (For the record I can model somewhat and know how to rig but I hate mapping.), or don't use D|S, but to make people aware what they are missing and make them ask for more quality.

Ah, so you want followers.

I always find it interesting that someone with a grudge has to "make" people aware of something they are "missing", when they seem otherwise happy with the fact that they don't miss it at all - considering the wide variety of items out there, it's not exactly a monopoly, either.

Quote - As I said, personally I have everything I need, so I couldn't care less about what DAZ does or doesn't, or what anybody else uses to fill their renders.

And yet here you are...

/P

Quote -
And the ironic thing is that neither "modern" D|S nor "modern" V4.1 can deliver one iota more realism over "ancient" Poser and V3.

What does any of that matter? You want realism, go hire a model and take some pictures.

I'm not going to argue about D|S vs. Poser because frankly, I have only a marginal interest in either, at best, and if they both went belly up, I'd not likely miss either of them.
But V4 is a much more versatile mesh than V3. It's more dense, and the points are arranged better for morphing. Maybe that's not so evident with Poser's crap morphing tools, but take it into LightWave Modeler, modo, or ZBrush (or any quality polygon modeler) and have a look at what's possible.
Not just that, but the density of that mesh creates more points, allowing for more detail in the maps, considering the textures are interpolated between UV points. More density equals more detail, and allows for more even morphing with less texture stretching.
Yes, it's more complicated, but so what? Really, why does it matter to you? You said you'd like to like V4... ("I WANTED V4 to be good.")... but the argument is it's too much to deal with. And yet you go on about how thoroughly you understand all this rigging and joints and so on. Look at it as a challenge. If you're such an expert, it shouldn't be a problem. If you want to like V4, by all means find the things about it which allow experts such as yourself to go to town on it.

Quote -
Now with V4.1 the bodyparts are scaled all over the place. Result: Without buying a full fledged 3d painting program it is impossible to create a proper V4.1 texture without noticeable seams.

You say this as if it were a bad thing....
Well, I bought two full fledged 3D painting programs - Deep Paint 3D a few years ago, and more recently, Body Paint 3D, standalone version.
3D painting on a mesh is a hugely more productive thing, for me at least, and many in the professional CG animation world, for that matter, than painting in 2D, and I can tell you 3D painting on a V4 mesh is far, far easier and less frustrating than painting V3.
Of course, both those programs allow you to switch back and forth between 3D, 2D and projection modes.
It's a large part of where texturing for 3D characters is headed in the future, and V4 is more than ready for it. In 3D painting the density of the mesh is even more important, as the interpolation of the "paint" between vertex points  is more apparent. That's why you switch back and forth between modes and projections.
So Joe AverageTextureguy can't easily paint a good texture for V4 in Photoshop. My heart bleeds for him and the loss that means for the community, really it does.

Quote -
I predict there will be A LOT less (If any) V4.1 hybrids out there, and a lot less free V4.1 textures.

Nope, DAZ started a race for the bottom line, because that's where they think the money is.

Oooh, the big Evil DAZ trying to make a profit while sticking it to the little guy. It almost brings a tear to my eye. Lord, I love this country. :)

No reason for Remapping V4 other than selling new textures? I have heard that one before from naysayers, but the evidence doesn't really indicate that was the motivation. take a look at this comparison. V4's arm on the top, V3's arm on the bottom, which map is going to offer less distortion? and better ability to provide detail on smaller maps? Im not saying that the V3 maps aren't easier to use, they are. pelt mapping provides the least possible seams, which makes hiding seams much easier, but with that benifit comes drawbacks, the primarily drawback is major distortion in some areas that is impossible to minimize. the secondary drawback is that there is a lot of wasted area on the maps, requiring much larger maps to get the same amount of detail. so we are dealing with ease of use VS quality, if I want ease of use I will go with V3. for quality mapping I will go for V4 mapping, its definately more work but the benifits are definately there. try putting a tattoo on Both figure's arms and tell me V4's mapping isn't better.

Thank you, wdupre, for showing that.

Those "UV Checkers" and things similar show far more in an instant than any amount of simply looking at a UV map can do.

Shrugs.
I see that I'm wasting my time here.

@Penguinisto: The "Free Market aproach" gives us Walmart and sweatshops as well as lead poisoned toys.

You call it DAZ hating, I call it a public service so that consumers can make a truly informed decision.

MikeJ: Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3.
So I recommend that you first get your facts straight before you try to give other people advice.

@wdupre: I never said V3's mapping was perfect. But what you all love to forget is that it were the hobbyists that made Poser big.

So the average hobbyist who just wants to make a few textures now has to buy an expensive 3d painting program just so DAZ can save a few inches of real estate on their jpg's?

Or buy a high end modeller because V4 refuses to properly work with Posers native morphing tools ?

I don't think so.

And what Poser hobbyist in the world needs 4000x4000 texture maps anyway ? I reduce all my textures to 1000x1000 or less because I'm not in the habit of rendering wall sized portrays of my Poser people, and so are 99,99% of the Poser users I know of.
Why have so many people such a stupid high tech fetish ?
MORE; MORE; MORE, NO, THATS NOT ENOUGH, WE DESERVE MORE....
It's not "old vs new", it's what works for MANY people and what doesn't.

People were more than happy with V3's mapping. There's tons of free stuff out there to proof it.
What good is a super perfect "professional" mapping when nobody can use it ?

Jeez, you should really listen to yourself.

Any grassroots movement can only take so much commodification before it is destroyed, and V4.1 is the tipping point.
But all that stupid ahtist types be damned, 'cause there's no munney in it, right ?

To you Vicky is just a virtual dress-up doll people play with to pass the time or maybe jerk off to.
It's all shitz and giggles, right, so who cares if she can't bend like a human or if she bogs down an older machine.

But SOME people take Poser a wee bit more seriously, and if they work real hard and put a lot of emotions into their renders, don't they deserve better than having to make do with a freakin' Barbie doll without kneecaps ?

I'm lucky enough to have the talent to fix most of the problems the existing meshes have.
But a lot of people haven't.
And even IF they have, why should they have to waste their time ?

V4.1 is defective by design.
She is neither photorealistic, nor is she easily accessible any more.

Vicky used to be an artists tool everyone could use in any way he liked, regardless of skill and income.

Now Vicky is an effin' BRAND only those are allowed to work with who can afford to spend the time to aquire the necessary skills and buy the professional tools to handle her.

I definitely won't waste my time to fix all of V4.1's shortcomings.
I made several attempts but to me she just isn't salveable because there is not a single piece of her that is actually useable.

As she is now, one has to stick to the DAZ approved morphs and "morphforms", and that's it.

And that's not good enough for me.
And it shouldn't have to be good enough for anybody else.

Quote -
MikeJ: Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3.
So I recommend that you first get your facts straight before you try to give other people advice.

Yes you're right. I am aware of this. I meant the desnsity of the UV coordinates in the map(s).
Actually, if you search the posts I made somewhere in the time frame of when V4 was released, you'll find I posted the comparitive polygon counts in some thread, somewhere. I don't expect you to do that, but take my word for it, it's there.

As for you "wasting my time here", yeah, that happens. 
It really sucks when you're the only one who just KNOWS something to be true and yet so many fail to achieve your higher understanding, doesn't it?

Quote -
And what Poser hobbyist in the world needs 4000x4000 texture maps anyway ? I reduce all my textures to 1000x1000 or less because I'm not in the habit of rendering wall sized portrays of my Poser people, and so are 99,99% of the Poser users I know of.
Why have so many people such a stupid high tech fetish ?

Probably because DAZ is hoping to raise the bar a little and offer something professionals can get into. You want to make professional CG animation with a 1024 texture for all uses and all shots, by all means go for it. let us know how an upclose face shot on a movie screen works out for you.

It's funny, with so many anti-Poser threads out there, and so much belief running rampant that it's never going to be more than a hobbiest app, and so much opposition to that belief, that we can find people opposed to it moving forward.
Like it or not, agree with it or not, V4 is a step forward in the Poser figure world.
Two years from now, when V5 is released, there will be much crying, breast -beating and moaning about how it's not v4.

Thus is 'Fanboyism'. Strangely enough, that was the first time I've heard it being employed
as an instrument of change. :) Seriously though, I use Poser when I need it, DAZ Studio for
rendering, Modo or trueSpace for modeling. Modo might replace DS for renders once I've
learned that aspect. I don't and won't condemn DAZ for marketing strategy. If I dislike the
practice, I won't deal with them. I have no agendas to persue. I am a hobbyist and will
use whichever tool does the job best. I have both Vickys also, and prefer V4, though 
Aiko is still the figure I use the most. 

Greywolf

Dunno if you have Dreamlights products to use with D|S, that will do way better than poser with it comes to image making only, and for realism. In poser you get the walk Cycle (other animation making goodies), and the material room in Poser 5, 6, 7 that does way better than D|S. Poser though is a memory (resource) hog, which could bog down your computer, when trying to make a scene. D|S can handle a nice scene a computer functions just fine, even huge ones (City, plus landscape and more). Poser can handle 9 camera settings or you have to save in library if you want more. D|S can have more than 9 cameras in a scene. D|S costs nothing, and well P7 you can pay for it. So, I can see the pros and cons between the two, which is difficult to divide the two, but your choice when it comes to a project. I have P5, P6, but not P7, which is no different although has some extra features. If D|S has a good material room just like Poser 5,6, 7 does, and a good walk cycle, then D|S would be my choice all the way, and it at no cost. The thing is I first started all this 3D stuff (8 years ago), I wanted to animate, entertain. I haven't even started yet. So, their goes the flaws between the two. Need another computer to do the job aside while doing other things.

Quote - Modo might replace DS for renders once I've
learned that aspect.

Yeah, just wait until modo gets some CA tools into its workflow - bones, rigging, and so on. They've got an excellent team at Lux and know full well  that rigging is going to be a big thing for them. I'm guessing they'll create a system which rivals even XSI. Rigging a mesh for posing and/or animating is not difficult, with good tools, and I believe that in a few years Lux will be at or near the top of the heap in that respect.
Assuming they can do it without it being too buggy. ;)

Quote -
I don't and won't condemn DAZ for marketing strategy. If I dislike the
practice, I won't deal with them. I have no agendas to persue. I am a hobbyist and will
use whichever tool does the job best. I have both Vickys also, and prefer V4, though 
Aiko is still the figure I use the most. 

Greywolf

Yeah, there you go now, ruining this whole thing. Nothing like a little reality to screw up a perfectly good going-nowhere debate, huh? ;)

I find this whole thread fascinating. If I didn't know any better and were it not for all the technical mumbo-jumbo, I'd swear I was listening to a friend rant about how he hates the chick who just broke up with him. ;)

On a 32 bit system, even with two gigs of memory, I've found that Modo has less capacity for handling dense Poser meshes than Poser, Daz Studio and Carrara. This is unfortunate because Modo's renderer is pretty awesome. I'm going to attempt to use Modo's layers to expand the capability. Things may grind to a stop when two figures are loaded in one layer, but how many figures can it handle pre-render if they are loaded in separate layers and hidden until needed? But to the question that instigated this thread, I have to say that I like different things about Poser and Daz Studio. It’s easier to control the lights in Daz Studio. It’s easier to navigate a scene and set things up and the content brower is about ten times quicker than Poser's. Poser’s material system is superior. Scripts exist for Poser that will bring greater realism. You can rig a figure in Poser (barely, but still…). Is there any reason why anyone can’t have both Poser and Daz Studio? To those who think that Daz is trying to stifle creativity, how do you explain Carrara, a program geared toward those who want to model, rig and animate original content? I think it’s obvious that Daz is trying to stay in business and cover all of the bases. It’s just that the instant gratification prefab sex doll market is more busy.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Modo's still in its early stages, give it some time. Although they've begun on the road towards animation and being a full-featured rendering package, it's core use is still modeling.

Its OpenGL is actually behind Poser's in terms of speed. I have a G-Force 8600 GTS video card, and a 64 bit system with Vista 64 bit, 6 gigs of RAM, and an AMD dual core CPU, and modo seems to strain even with that.
Hopefully they'll work that out. They'll have to.

Quote - I find this whole thread fascinating. If I didn't know any better and were it not for all the technical mumbo-jumbo, I'd swear I was listening to a friend rant about how he hates the chick who just broke up with him. ;)

 

snort

:lol:

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

PS -- all hail Modo!!!!!!!  :thumbupboth:

((How's that for fanboyism........?)) 

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

JoePublic, since you didn't reply to my last post, I can only assume that you agree with all my points or that you simply couldn't think of any answers. Well, now that that's out of the way, let's move on.

"Shrugs.
I see that I'm wasting my time here."
Yup.

"@Penguinisto: The "Free Market aproach" gives us Walmart and sweatshops as well as lead poisoned toys."
It also gave you your car, TV, computer, plentiful food and that nice lifestyle you live. Or perhaps, comrad, you prefer old Soviet Russia! Da!

"You call it DAZ hating, I call it a public service so that consumers can make a truly informed decision."
No one will get an informed decision from you,  because you seem to have forgotten that you have to be informed first. Yeah, hate is always a good public service.......

"MikeJ: Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3.
So I recommend that you first get your facts straight before you try to give other people advice."
As MikeJ said, he meant the density of the UV coordinates in the map. I recommend that you pay more attention so that you don't look so foolish.

"@wdupre: I never said V3's mapping was perfect. But what you all love to forget is that it were the hobbyists that made Poser big."
What does hobbyists making Poser big have to do with mapping?

"So the average hobbyist who just wants to make a few textures now has to buy an expensive 3d painting program just so DAZ can save a few inches of real estate on their jpg's?"
You don't need an expensive 3d painting program, any image editing program will do. If you were truly informed, you'd know that.

"Or buy a high end modeller because V4 refuses to properly work with Posers native morphing tools ? I don't think so."
You don't need a high end modeller to create morphs for V4, you can even use free modeling programs. If you were truly informed, you'd know that too.

"And what Poser hobbyist in the world needs 4000x4000 texture maps anyway ?*
One that wants to make a large print? Here's a newsflash for you, not all Poser/DAZ Studio users are hobbiests, and I'll bet there are a lot of hobbiests who like to make large prints. Me for one. Besides, you can't really upsize an image without losing a lot of quality, but you can always downsize.

I reduce all my textures to 1000x1000 or less because I'm not in the habit of rendering wall sized portrays of my Poser people, and so are 99,99% of the Poser users I know of."
Then you don't know a lot of Poser users.

Why have so many people such a stupid high tech fetish ?"
You consider large texture sizes to be high tech? Rotfl!!! What neck of the woods are you from?

It's not "old vs new", it's what works for MANY people and what doesn't."
Yup. Poser, DAZ Studio and V4 all work for MANY people.

"People were more than happy with V3's mapping. There's tons of fre stuff out there to proof it.
What good is a super perfect "professional" mapping when nobody can use it ?"
There's lots of proof in the stores and freestuff that plenty of other people can use it. You've got to realise that just because you can't do something or you can't figure something out doesn't mean that others can't.

"Jeez, you should really listen to yourself."
If you were really listening to yourself, you'd laughing yourself silly.

"Any grassroots movement can only take so much commodification before it is destroyed, and V4.1 is the tipping point.
But all that stupid ahtist types be damned, 'cause there's no munney in it, right ?"
So V4 is destroying what exactly?

"To you Vicky is just a virtual dress-up doll people play with to pass the time or maybe jerk off to."
(Pssst, your adolescence is showing.)

It's all shitz and giggles, right, so who cares if she can't bend like a human"
V4 isn't perfect, but she can bend better than any other female figure on the market.

"or if she bogs down an older machine."
Why would V4 bog down your machine more than V3? You said yourself and I quote, "Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3".  Please explain to everyone here, (we're all dying to know,) how V4 would bog down your machine more than V3 if she has has fewer polygons?

"But SOME people take Poser a wee bit more seriously, and if they work real hard and put a lot of emotions into their renders, don't they deserve better than having to make do with a freakin' Barbie doll without kneecaps ?"
So which "freakin' Barbie doll" with kneecaps do you use? Just curious.

"I'm lucky enough to have the talent to fix most of the problems the existing meshes have.
But a lot of people haven't.
And even IF they have, why should they have to waste their time ?"
Please give us a list of all the faults of V4 and the ones that you've fixed, it should make some very interesting reading.

"V4.1 is defective by design.
She is neither photorealistic, nor is she easily accessible any more."
It takes a combination of mesh, lighting, textures, render settings etc to make a fairly realistic image. V4 can make as realistic image as any other mesh.  V4 is perfectly accessible to me an most other people, why are you having problems? Oh, and please give a list of all of V4's design defects.

"Vicky used to be an artists tool everyone could use in any way he liked, regardless of skill and income."
Vicky still is. Again, just because you can't do it doesn't mean most others can't.

"Now Vicky is an effin' BRAND only those are allowed to work with who can afford to spend the time to aquire the necessary skills and buy the professional tools to handle her."
You don't need any more special skills to use V4 than you do V3, anymore than you need more special skills to use Poser 7 than Poser 6.  You may need to learn new things to use Poser 7 and V4, but you don't need any new skills. You don't need any professional tools to use her either.

"I definitely won't waste my time to fix all of V4.1's shortcomings.
I made several attempts but to me she just isn't salveable because there is not a single piece of her that is actually useable."
But wait, you just said a couple paragraphs up that, "I'm lucky enough to have the talent to fix most of the problems the existing meshes have." Do you have the skills or don't you? Thousands of other people aren't having problems using her, why are you?

"As she is now, one has to stick to the DAZ approved morphs and "morphforms", and that's it."
Actually there are V4 morphs available at other stores.  And yet once again, if you were truly informed, you'd know that.

"And that's not good enough for me.
And it shouldn't have to be good enough for anybody else."
It's nice to know that you set your standards so much higher than most other people. Most other people don't seem to be having all the problems you're having with her. Maybe you got a corrupted file. Try downloading again.

Coldrake

For me the choice was - and is - Poser 7. I do exclusively toonish stills (several renders with different shader trees) that are usually layered in postwork for a "drawn" like effect. I tried D|S twice at different times, but didn't find it suitable for my needs at the time. Material Room's awesome power has been a key deciding factor in my choice. Also Poser 7 is very stable on my system so that also counts big time. I've only had a couple of Poser 7 crashes ever. One doesn't need to rig or animate to prefer Poser over D|S. It's all about the needs. There are just so many ways to use these programs.

DS is ok but as all my renders are done in Vue, I have to use Poser.  I'm not too bothered by the interface or how hard it is to set lights in Poser because I don't :)

Use whatever works for you

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............See Signature tagline.

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This topic comes up every week. Studio is lame. Without animation features, walk cycles, it goes no where. They like keeping it a certain way. They'll clutter it with Poser features like they did with stupid mini cams but that's it. I gave up on it a while ago and have no intensions of ever installing that annoying piece of software again on my system.

You can't even make or save a '.cr2 file in it, so what good is it?

It's a useless free toy. In the end, you still need Poser to make Poser files.

These threads are a waste of space because you ALL have Poser anyway.

If you have Poser, you don't Studio.

V4 bah. V3 for me always. A much better figure.

Lol.
So DAZ is aiming at the "professional" market with V4.1 then ?
Splendid.

Yeah, right. Let's use that DAZ Vicky chick for some professional work 'cause she's got that 4000x4000 maps.
Never mind her proportions are completely off so she looks like a Marvel toon rather than a real human.
Never mind that she lacks each and any body detail like proper kneecaps or shoulderblades.
Nevermind that her thighs get all lumpy when you try to bend her.
But hey, she's HAWT so away with the stupid custom build photorealistic meshes professional Studios pay real CG artists to make and let's all use that DAZ chick that comes with a license as big as New Yorks telephone book.

Yeah right, I reeeeeaaaaallly see that happen.

In the professional world it's all about originality.
YOU DON'T USE SOMEONE ELSE'S STUFF, PERIOD.
Especialy not if it comes with a license plastered all over.

Seems too few people here are able to understand what I'm talking about, so let's try it this way:
The HotRod movement started in the 30's and came to a high in the 50's because of what ?
The Ford Flathead V8 and the Chevy smallblock V8 engine.
Two simple. powerfull engines everyone and his brother could modify and tinker with with a few simple hand tools.
It was completely DIY, it was a grassroots movement, it was for the common man and many talented people turned cars into rolling pieces of art.
A few people became professionals and sold speed equipment and opened shops, but they still were part of the community.

Nowadays ? Look under a modern car's hood and you can't even spot the engine because it's buried under a ton of gadget and gizmos and stuff that breaks for you and shifts for you and thinks for you and all the crap people are told they can't live without anymore.
Cars became fat and sluggish, and then they needed MORE power just to move as fast as the older cars could.

But hey, instead of HotRods and Customs we today have "Pimp my Ride".

Progress is nice, I'm all for progress in science.
But unabashed consumerism is not progress. Discarding old stuff that works perfectly just so you can sell new stuff is wrong.

And that's exactly what will happen here.
V3 was simple enough so everybody could be part of that new idea called Poser.
If you call that communism, so be it.
I happily admit that I put the "COMMunity" over the egoistical needs of some individuals.

And what the Poser community needs is at least one (1) PHOTOrealistic model that actually LOOKS like a human, BENDS like a human yet is simple and lightweight enough that EVERYBODY has the same chance at getting creative with her.

JUST ONE.

Once we have that, DAZ can churn out as many stylized cartoon chicks as they want.
I'm all for stylized cartoon chicks. But I call them AIKO or GIRL, not VICKY, because VICKY is supposed to be realistic.

MIKI 1 was a success despite her bending worse than RENDA because she was REALISTIC.
No wannabe "artist" smoothed and stretched her body to make it more "stylish" but the modeller just transferred A REAL WOMAN as good as he could into 3D-space.
THAT is good craftmanship.
Let the end user do the "art" part. All the modeller has to do is to provide a "blank canvas".

MIKI 1 had MANY faults, and MIKI 2 has still A LOT, but noone can say anymore that PHOTOREALISM won't sell.
That a PHOTOREALISTIC woman couldn't be sexy.
That a PHOTOREALISTIC woman is not what people want.

You can still stylize or toonify her as much as you want later, but FIRST give the people an ACCURATE model of a human being.
Don't force your "artistic vision" on everybody else and tell people that they could fix things themselves if they really wanted.
That's hogwash.

Had MIKI 1 bended like Apollo I seriously doubt DAZ would have that defacto monopol it has now.

DAZ thinks they know what people want just because they have good sales.
I say people buy their stuff because there is no real choice.

But as I said, it's wasted time.
I'm not that stupid to believe that someone at DAZ would really listen.

And it's not just DAZ, it's the whole culture they and others brought and which so many people were so eager to adopt
BUY MORE, CONSUME, BE HAPPY, OBEY !

Be gratefull to all those wonderfull merchants who bring you all that exiting wonderfull products for exitingly low, low prices.

Sigh.
There used to be so much talent in this community. Everybody was happy to share and to find out new things.

And now it's all a freakin'..I don't know what.
With winners and loosers and fanboys and consumers and gloating and whining and fractions and instead of combining all that talent to make a better Poser everybody's at everybody else's throats to make another buck.

Sad, just sad.

Poser took the elitism out of 3D-art, and DAZ is eager to put it back in.

Quote - Lol.

And that's exactly what will happen here.
V3 was simple enough so everybody could be part of that new idea called Poser.
If you call that communism, so be it.
I happily admit that I put the "COMMunity" over the egoistical needs of some individuals.

And what the Poser community needs is at least one (1) PHOTOrealistic model that actually LOOKS like a human, BENDS like a human yet is simple and lightweight enough that EVERYBODY has the same chance at getting creative with her.

JUST ONE.
.
I'm not that stupid to believe that someone at DAZ would really listen.

And it's not just DAZ, it's the whole culture they and others brought and which so many people were so eager to adopt
BUY MORE, CONSUME, BE HAPPY, OBEY !

Poser took the elitism out of 3D-art, and DAZ is eager to put it back in.

Her??? isnt that sort of assuming that every user of poser has your desire for some idealized realistic fantasy FEMALE in the first place??? to be Frank V2/M2 were "simple enough" as they only required an OBJ/CR2/PNG and whatever textures you wanted after that. I would have like to have seen a M2 /V2 Hires version released . But due to successful marketing people accepted that ONEfigure (V3 or Steph3 et al) that required over 800 "support" files (INJ/REM/CHAN/VIS/DELTAS), to be fully functional was an "Advance in figure technology" Apollo Max(OBJ/CR2/PNG) has proven that to be ridiculous My ENTIRE installation of Cinema4D Studio with the bodypaint,advanced render,dynamics,sketch&toon and Cloth sim& Mocca module does NOT require 800 support files to function And now I read about people setting up an entire separate runtimes just for the bloatware abombination Known as "V4" But alas SIr you waste your time with this Crusade against DAZ/V4 as it should be apparent by now that you will find no angry mob of villagers here to rally to your cause and storm castle draper in Utah with torches and pitchforks in hand. Ubiquitous "V" Chick is an Iconic Idol and her worshippers Dont care about the technical details good or bad. -Wolf-

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@wolf359: Your perfectly right. But it still is fun to yank a few chains sometimes.

Btw, I think V2 and M2 are still great figures and I use M2 a lot as well as M2LO.
I just made a version that can wear M3 clothing natively but is all M2 geometry.
But the unimeshes are the most supported, so those are my "main" meshes.
But I use V3RR and M3RR because there are no separate injection morph folders needed and I made some highrez body, lorez head hybrids for special uses.
V3RR is basically a V2 that can use V3 textures and wear V3 clothes.
Laura and Luke have much better joints than V3 and M3, and they make great adults with a little morph work.
I also make my own bodymorphs with the morphbrush so I have no real need for the DAZ morphs anyway.

"Ubiquitous "V" Chick is an Iconic Idol
and her worshippers Dont care about the technical details good or bad."

Yep, that pretty much sums up why I started to post in this thread. :-)

@coldrake: Just so you don't think I'd ignore you:

"JoePublic, since you didn't reply to my last post, I can only assume that you agree with all my points or that you simply couldn't think of any answers. Well, now that that's out of the way, let's move on."
I think you assume a wee bit too much here. ;-)

"It also gave you your car, TV, computer, plentiful food and that nice lifestyle you live. Or perhaps, comrad, you prefer old Soviet Russia! Da!"
I actually prefer a so called "social market economy" where companies are regulated for the common good.

"No one will get an informed decision from you,  because you seem to have forgotten that you have to be informed first. Yeah, hate is always a good public service......."
After trying for seven years to turn Posette, Judy, V2 and V3 as well as others into passable human beings, I think I know a thing or two, actually.

"As MikeJ said, he meant the density of the UV coordinates in the map. I recommend that you pay more attention so that you don't look so foolish."
Last time I opened a Vicky object in UV-mapper the number of UV coordinates was identical to the number of vertices in the mesh. But I guess V4.1 is so sophisticated that she even has invisible UV-coordinates. But as I said, I hate mapping, so if V4.1 truly has MORE UV-coordinates despite of being lower resolution, I stand corrected.

"What does hobbyists making Poser big have to do with mapping?
You don't need an expensive 3d painting program, any image editing program will do. If you were truly informed, you'd know that."
Please re-read carefully what I wrote about differently scaled bodyparts. Maybe also wdupre's answer.

"You don't need a high end modeller to create morphs for V4, you can even use free modeling programs. If you were truly informed, you'd know that too."
No, not to make a few minor headmorphs. But if you morph the body too much, you have to re-adjust her 91 JSM-mags.
See that's exactly what I'm talking about. V4.1 is so complicated, not even a reasonable intelligent person like you is able to understand exactly how she works.

"One that wants to make a large print? Here's a newsflash for you, not all Poser/DAZ Studio users are hobbiests, and I'll bet there are a lot of hobbiests who like to make large prints. Me for one. Besides, you can't really upsize an image without losing a lot of quality, but you can always downsize."
You are absolutely right, That's why I keep a backup with the original textures in case I need them.
But sorry, the MOST COMMON use for Vicky is to post an 2000X2000 render of to a web gallery.

"Then you don't know a lot of Poser users."
Maybe I just know the "wrong" ones ?

"You consider large texture sizes to be high tech? Rotfl!!! What neck of the woods are you from?"
A place where usability trumps bleeding edge, perhaps ?
Remember the Allies won WW2 with ancient tech Sherman tanks while the Germans had all the latest high tech panzers.

"Yup. Poser, DAZ Studio and V4 all work for MANY people."
The problem is not THAT they work, but HOW they work.

"There's lots of proof in the stores and freestuff that plenty of other people can use it. You've got to realise that just because you can't do something or you can't figure something out doesn't mean that others can't."
Again, the problem is not wether or not "I" can do something or not, but that A LOT LESS people will be able to make V4.1 textures compared to how many people could make V3 textures.

"If you were really listening to yourself, you'd laughing yourself silly."
Please at least try to be more witty, next time.

"So V4 is destroying what exactly?"
V4 destroys the DIY attitude or whatever what's left of it because it nurtures the attitude that buying is better than creating.

"(Pssst, your adolescence is showing.)"
I have no problem with that. Porn is art !

"V4 isn't perfect, but she can bend better than any other female figure on the market."
And it takes me ten minutes with the morphbrush to make ANY female figure bend better than V4.1.
Pretty sad, isn't it ?

"Why would V4 bog down your machine more than V3? You said yourself and I quote, "Actually, V4.1 has LESS polygons than V3".  Please explain to everyone here, (we're all dying to know,) how V4 would bog down your machine more than V3 if she has has fewer polygons?"
Sorry to again being forced to correct you, but while V4.1 has a few polygons less than V3 she stores all her morphs permanently in her cr2, and her body uses 91 (ninetyone!) Joint Smoothing Magnets. And each of those 91 JSM's consists of three separate parts, so that is 273 additional actors that Poser has to calculate everytime you pose her or move a camera.

"So which "freakin' Barbie doll" with kneecaps do you use? Just curious."
I mostly use modified V3RR and M3RR, as well as modified Luke and Laura because they have the best joints out of the box, can use all Unimesh stuff, and are easily turned into adults because they have more average (adult !) proportions.

"Please give us a list of all the faults of V4 and the ones that you've fixed, it should make some very interesting reading."
I could and maybe I even will, but it would be a lot of work as I intend to back up all my claims with a comparison render.
But in the meantime just search through my older posts here on Rendo.

"It takes a combination of mesh, lighting, textures, render settings etc to make a fairly realistic image. V4 can make as realistic image as any other mesh.  V4 is perfectly accessible to me an most other people, why are you having problems? Oh, and please give a list of all of V4's design defects."
Please see above.
And Please keep in mind that my goals is 100% PHOTOrealism, not "quasi-realistic" as in "It's neither a Toon nor anime so it must be realistic"
If you take a virtual Barbiedoll and throw photorealistic lights at her you get a best a render that looks like a photo of an actual Barbiedoll.
But never something that looks like a photo of a real human being.

"Vicky still is. Again, just because you can't do it doesn't mean most others can't."
I'm sure folks with the talent and knowledge like Anton Kisiel or maybe Blackhearted could make V4.1 their bitch, but the average Poserite will be stuck with just spinning some face dials.

"You don't need any more special skills to use V4 than you do V3, anymore than you need more special skills to use Poser 7 than Poser 6.  You may need to learn new things to use Poser 7 and V4, but you don't need any new skills. You don't need any professional tools to use her either."
You need a a profound knowledge of cr2's to make truly new bodymorphs because of the embedded JSM's, and a full fledged 3D-painter to create seamless textures.
And a high end computer to use her without too much lag.

"But wait, you just said a couple paragraphs up that, "I'm lucky enough to have the talent to fix most of the problems the existing meshes have." Do you have the skills or don't you? Thousands of other people aren't having problems using her, why are you?"
You constantly mix up "using" her with really being able to "making her your own"
Just spinning a few dials or applying a custom character someone else made is not equal to being able to being truly creative with a mesh.

"Actually there are V4 morphs available at other stores.  And yet once again, if you were truly informed, you'd know that."
See above. I don't want to use someone else's morphs. I want to be able to do my own. It's easy with V3, but next to impossible with V4.1.

"It's nice to know that you set your standards so much higher than most other people. Most other people don't seem to be having all the problems you're having with her. Maybe you got a corrupted file. Try downloading again."
That actually WAS funny. Bravo !
But the point is that a lot of those people who claim to have no "problems" with V4.1 aren't even able to recognize problems as such because they have been trained by DAZ to accept them as inevitable.

And even if we assume that some people truly have no problems with V4.1 because they never want to do more than "buy, load, render" , why should they have a problem with a lighter, better optimized mesh that bends better and looks more realistic right out of the box ?

"Coldrake"

JoePublic

Quote - Lol.
In the professional world it's all about originality.
YOU DON'T USE SOMEONE ELSE'S STUFF, PERIOD.
Especialy not if it comes with a license plastered all over.

Well, that very well may be true.. but then again I wouldn't know.   I'm not a professional artist, nor is it likely that I ever will be.  My application is far different than that, as are a lot of other peoples application.  Not everyone that uses a 3d rendering program does so with the intention of selling their finished render as a standalone work.

Quote -
Seems too few people here are able to understand what I'm talking about, so let's try it this way:
The HotRod movement started in the 30's and came to a high in the 50's because of what ?
The Ford Flathead V8 and the Chevy smallblock V8 engine.
Two simple. powerfull engines everyone and his brother could modify and tinker with with a few simple hand tools.
It was completely DIY, it was a grassroots movement, it was for the common man and many talented people turned cars into rolling pieces of art.
A few people became professionals and sold speed equipment and opened shops, but they still were part of the community.

Actually I understand what your getting at, but I hope you'll forgive me when I point out that perhaps you might have missed a point or two yourself in this discussion.  Take your example of the hot rodders of old, who began working on their own engines and souping up their cars.  That's all well and good for them, but what happens if you want a fast car but you're one of the people who doesn't know how to work on engines?  You were either stuck driving your mom's station wagon or paying a boatload of money to have someone who could work on engines do the work for you, there was no in between.  

Quote -
Nowadays ? Look under a modern car's hood and you can't even spot the engine because it's buried under a ton of gadget and gizmos and stuff that breaks for you and shifts for you and thinks for you and all the crap people are told they can't live without anymore.
Cars became fat and sluggish, and then they needed MORE power just to move as fast as the older cars could.

The automated systems on modern cars do a lot of things the old hobbiests could even dream of, and it wasn't that people were told they "couldn't live without it" or that it's a bad thing that it exists.  Take my daughters neon for example, it's a lightweight car with a small 2.0 litre engine in it but it's still a blast to drive.  It's got plenty of pickup and handles like a dream.  Back in the hotrodding glory days you couldn't get that kind of power and performance unless you had a fairly good sized engine that was properly built and tuned.

And having done a fair amount of hotrodding myself, believe me once you take that hotrod down the track a few times guess what?  Your going to be tuning the engine some more.  Not so with the little 4 cylinder power plant in my daughters neon.  Computers sense the amount of oxygen in the exhaust gases and automatically adjust the fuel flow to the engine real time to decrease wasted fuel.  Computers also monitor various other aspects of the engine and constantly adjust things like airflow and fuel intake so that the car is runnning efficiently at all tempratures and speeds.

The old 72 ford pinto I used to run 1/4 sprint track in was an awesome machine and a sight to behold, but it didn't have any of those kind of features.  Tuning the engine required a mechanic, and the engine had to be constantly monitored and maintained because it was built for performance, not drivability.  It's entire design concept was different, it was designed for maximum horespower and speed in a short sprint.  We even had to take the engine entirely out of the car to change the oil filter, which is what happens when you shoehorn a V8 into a car that was originally designed for a V4.  But our design concept was simple.. light weight and massive horsepower equals speed.

It wasn't designed to be easy to use for the novice driver.  But hey, if nobody had ever built a car that was designed to be easily maintained and built for long trips the only people who would be driving today would be mechanics and their families.  The rest of us would all be taking the bus.

So really what your comparing here is apples and oranges.  Granted, you won't see many professional artists using Daz Studio - but then again not everyone is a professional artist.  You won't see too many people driving dodge neons at the Indy either, but then again not everyone is a professional race car driver.

So while my daughters Dodge neon certainly won't be winning at Indy next year, it's still nice for her to have to get back and forth to work in.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Quote - @wolf359: Your perfectly right. But it still is fun to yank a few chains sometimes.

Is that what you're doing.......?  OK -- no doubt, you've successfully yanked the chain on the safety shower, and dumped 100 gallons of icy cold water all over yourself in the process.  So: we all owe you an enormous debt of thanks for doing that.  Laughter is a good medicine, and you've provided it to us in great abundance with the comedy in this thread.

Be careful, though: even the very best jokes can become stale when they're dragged out too long, or repeated too often. 

Carry on, my friend, carry on........you might convert the neighbor's cat to your way of thinking.  Then again: cats don't like loud noises.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Regarding Modo, (and ignoring the debate for a moment) I tested to see just how many Poser figures I could load and render in Modo 203, provided that the figures were loaded in separate layers. I loaded 40 un-textured Daz people before quitting of my own accord. Modo performed about as well as Vue 5 Infinite when one Poser figure is imported in that program. That is to say, there was some sluggishness, but as long as I remained in the "Items" selection mode things remained workable. It will be interesting to see how Modo handles figures with textures. I'm thinking it might be practical to build and render large scenes in Modo, even if they're loaded with Poser content.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote - Last time I opened a Vicky object in UV-mapper the number of UV coordinates was identical to the number of vertices in the mesh. But I guess V4.1 is so sophisticated that she even has invisible UV-coordinates. But as I said, I hate mapping, so if V4.1 truly has MORE UV-coordinates despite of being lower resolution, I stand corrected.

It's not the number of coordinates. You are right about that.
Density means how much of the UV space each coordinate set (polygon) occupies. V4's UVs are more compact (less space wasted on the map). That means that a 2D texture of the same pixel resolution on V4 will retain more detail (and not pixellate as quickly) in 3d space than it would on V3.
V4's UVs have a lot less distortion (UV stretch) also.
It's much better mapping for hi-res needs.

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

Mod Post:

Chill out, folks. We all have opinions, and we're all entitled to them.

Trying to convert others to your opinions by using the ol' flaming-sword-of-self-righteousness-and-trusty-shield-of-insults technique, is probably a complete waste of time. You'll catch more flies with honey than with vinegar, as a wise man once said.

Seriously, don't make me break out the cat pics, here. Because my cats are all, like, "OMG no pikshurs, I are havin bad furr day. kthxbai."

---

"you are terrifying
and strange and beautiful
something not everyone knows how to love." - Warsan Shire

I think part of the problem with V4 is that people don't understand why she was created the way she was (at least as far as some things). Her face is sort of a blended face (you called it stylized) but it was intended as a more neutral base to get rid of the "she always looks like Vicky with that huge nordic jaw" thing etc. It was softer to be a more generic starting point. An averaged form. Same thing for the body (for the most part, I have some issues with her there too) but it requres the user to turn more dials and a lot of people just don't do that. I think DAZ was also hoping for more after market support to fill in some of the areas. That was, at least how I understand it, the reasoning behind her look. more generic as a starting point, clay to be moulded and all that.

Quote - I think part of the problem with V4 is that people don't understand why she was created the way she was (at least as far as some things). Her face is sort of a blended face (you called it stylized) but it was intended as a more neutral base to get rid of the "she always looks like Vicky with that huge nordic jaw" thing etc. It was softer to be a more generic starting point. An averaged form. Same thing for the body (for the most part, I have some issues with her there too) but it requres the user to turn more dials and a lot of people just don't do that. I think DAZ was also hoping for more after market support to fill in some of the areas. That was, at least how I understand it, the reasoning behind her look. more generic as a starting point, clay to be moulded and all that.

Out of all the Daz figures I find V4 to be the best, due to the way she looks. V4 is IMHO more real looking than the other Vickis before. I still use my other Vickis still. Since I have started using poser (almost 6 years now) and the more Female and Male characters that come out there is not true realistic looking figure that is straight "out of the box" with out some texturing involved or some morphs added. Even the  G2 female figures look unreal till you get a good texture and lighting on them. 

Poserverse The New Home for NYGUY's Freebies

This is the kind of realism I expected from V4.1.

Miki has it all: The shape, the proportions, the bodydetail.
Because she was modelled after a real girl AND THEN LEFT ALONE.

No toning down, no smoothing, no stretching to "improve" her looks.
This is the kind of realistic I expect from a 2007 Poser mesh.

Here is one of my own attempts using V3RR. Completely different girl, completely different bodytype.

But still correct proportions, correct bodydetail, correct shape.
THEN you can add photorealistic lights and a photorealistic skin.

But you first need to have an accurately shaped mesh.
And so far none of the meshes out there except MIKI deliver that.
It wouldn't even be such a problem if not each and any clothing item out there wasn't tailored for her default bodyshape.
And the "morphforms" simply don't cut it, so you need a custom morph.

So even IF you make an accurate morph for V4.1, no clothing will fit anymore.
Not to mention that it is extremely hard to do a really radical remorph with her because of the JSM mags.

Put V4.1 next to a photograph of a real woman.
Supermodel, average woman, old, young, whatever.
You will quickly notice how much is wrong with her.

Here is a quick mesh comparison I rendered in Lightwave. The ball on the right clearly has the problem of not being as convincing of a ball as the one on the left. Edges, sharp angles, overall lack of ballicity. You will quickly notice how much is wrong with it.

You know what I'm wondering MikeJ ?

I'm wondering why I can't remember ever reading a single one of your posts despite you having an enormous post count of 12813 ?
Could it be that all your posts are as stupid and meaningless as those you made in this thread so far, hmm?

Yeah, that could explain that.
Thanks heaven, for a moment I was afraid my bullshit detector had stopped working.
Whew.

:-)

Actually I was the mod of the Vue forum for about a year and a half, until I quit. if you find and read any of that you'll notice I'm equally talented at being decent and respectful as I am at being stupid and meaningless.
Life is nothing without variety. :)

You just can't stand it, can you? It really eats you up inside that your "point" isn't going over as well as it should. Isn't it?
Good luck with that.

Tell you what. You want some REAL practice? Take your Miki over to CG Talk and get into a discussion in the maya or XSI forum about realism, rigging and mapping.... then you can come back here and tell us all about all they learned.

Ok,  apparently some have missed Karens post to stop the bickering, and since we are moving right along into personal insult land, Im locking this down.

~Jani

Renderosity Community Admin
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