Quote - Trouble is I've been working 50-hour weeks since then.  Oh, and every time I get back to that set I realize something new I want to add to it -- or find something old I want to do better.

HA! Tell me about it.  That's how I ended up wit 10 or so textures for the robe... and there are things that I would want to add now that could cause me to start the whole thing almost from scratch.It's the worst when testers ask... could you add this..... and it's something that you thought of too, but it's too late to incorporate...  Then I think, ick, people are going to hate it because it doesn't have that one, two or three things (never mind the ton of things that are in there already, those are always taken for granted.)  

I can do you one better, though -- I finished an outfit for the PT girl, sold several dozen copies.....THEN decided I wasn't happy with some elements and pulled it from my store.   :)

Have re-done the mesh, completely remapped of course, but of course now all my hand-painted textures are defunct and have to be re-done, too.

And I'm experiencing horrible feature bloat as well.  (AltGeom's?  Dynamic versions?  Even more texture variations?)

*'Even with a name and recognition, you can release something that's a total waste of time to produce. Every person I know creating content has at least one total bomb.'

That ends up being especially true for anything created for the male characters including Apollo. It takes at least as much time and effort to make stuff for the male characters as it does to make 'sexy'  outfits for V4 but the sales on those items usually don't even come close.

This only mirrors the female-centric content in the Poser galleries where it seems that only women are regarded as the fit subjects of 'art' :)

• Rick

Quote - I can do you one better, though -- I finished an outfit for the PT girl, sold several dozen copies.....THEN decided I wasn't happy with some elements and pulled it from my store.   :)

Have re-done the mesh, completely remapped of course, but of course now all my hand-painted textures are defunct and have to be re-done, too.

And I'm experiencing horrible feature bloat as well.  (AltGeom's?  Dynamic versions?  Even more texture variations?)

OMG, that's just I'm afraid of... I'll be like a software house, start releasing service packs... (Somebody shoot me)

Ramwolff can tell you, after the first round of tests, few months back, I decided to rework the whole thing - I called it alpha test stage.

There is that!

But then, outside of being good, lucky, or (probably) both, you aren't going to make much of a living with doing this.  You could justifiably say that everything you do is for yourself, so you might as well make something that interests you.

But that isn't entirely true.  For one thing, there's a particular disappointment when the creation you've slaved over vanishes into the flood without remark.  It doesn't help even knowing that the "fifty more eyeliner colors for V 4.1" that pushed it off the front page also has a lifespan measured in hours.

(Actually...if done properly, I bet a proper eyeliner kit would be useful enough to stick around.  Such are the drawbacks of trying to come up with generic examples to illustrate a point!)

The subtler factor is that doing this can be expensive.  The first time you struggle through painting with The Gimp is when you really start saving for that copy of PhotoShop.  You upgrade your modeling engine.  You keep abreast (!!) of new versions of Poser.  You keep buying new figures with all their associated morph packs so you can build clothing that fits them properly.  And you start thinking hard about Bodypaint and Maya and other expensive options....(oh, yes, and that 16" waccom tablet, and that new flat-screen monitor, and a faster CPU...)

The few bucks you get from a store product may not offset much of these costs.  But every little bit makes a difference.

Pengy's absolutely right about the originality aspect and it also applies to texture sets.  It's one of the reasons why I make my robot sets.  I try to incorporate at least one new thing that nobody's tried before.  It's never gonna make me a millionaire but they do sell reasonably well.

Quote - *'Even with a name and recognition, you can release something that's a total waste of time to produce. Every person I know creating content has at least one total bomb.'

That ends up being especially true for anything created for the male characters including Apollo. It takes at least as much time and effort to make stuff for the male characters as it does to make 'sexy'  outfits for V4 but the sales on those items usually don't even come close.

This only mirrors the female-centric content in the Poser galleries where it seems that only women are regarded as the fit subjects of 'art' :)

• Rick

That's just what I'm bracing myself for, releasing a product that will bomb, because I'm afraid that noone but my few beta testing Apollo enthusiasts will be interested in it.

On the other hand, I'm working on a male nude series... in my gallery.... (GO LOOK !)  there, I said it :lol:

*'That's just what I'm bracing myself for, releasing a product that will bomb, because I'm afraid that noone but my few beta testing Apollo enthusiasts will be interested in it.'

Well hopefully that won't be the case and you'll be very successful with your sales. Although to be on the safe side, you'd better sacrifice a chicken and dance naked around an open fire shortly after it's release :)

*'On the other hand, I'm working on a male nude series... in my gallery.... (GO LOOK !)  there, I said it '

I'm glad someone is! I mean, I'm a red-blooded heterosexual male and have made more than my fair share of female pinups but it would be nice to see that something else could interest viewers enough that they would actually take a few seconds of their time to look at it :)

• Rick

*I'm glad someone is! I mean, I'm a red-blooded heterosexual male and have made more than my fair share of female pinups but it would be nice to see that something else could interest viewers enough that they would actually take a few seconds of their time to look at it :)

I hear ya! I'm at loss as to how. The best way to get something seen is to spend a lot of time commenting on other people's work. Lot of times even the best looking pieces get buried... and I'm far from making best looking pieces.

What baffles me is how many females are catering to the nude girl look as well.  The whole thing seems to revolve around male sexuality.... I gues it wouldn't be the only thing that does that.  Oh well...

*'What baffles me is how many females are catering to the nude girl look as well.'

Yes and this has always been the case for as long as I can remember too. I think it has less to do with 'catering to male sexuality' and more to do with 'adult dress-up Barbie'.

At least I hope this is the case because I wouldn't want to be seen as being opposed to 'catering to male sexuality'. We really can't have too much of that can we? :)

• Rick

Quote - *'What baffles me is how many females are catering to the nude girl look as well.'

Yes and this has always been the case for as long as I can remember too. I think it has less to do with 'catering to male sexuality' and more to do with 'adult dress-up Barbie'.

• Rick

I guess. I'd rather play fantasy dress-up with a well formed male, then a female. But I guess 'good girls' aren't supposed to admit that... We're supposed to be preoccupied with making ourselves more desirable...

Not that I mind men enjoying what they like. It's more the case of what's good for the gander...  I guess my 'Euro liberal sexuality' roots are showing :lol:

*'I guess. I'd rather play fantasy dress-up with a well formed male, then a female. But I guess 'good girls' aren't supposed to admit that... We're supposed to be preoccupied with making ourselves more desirable...'

I never of thought of it in that way but after reading your response I'm convinced that this comes closer to the truth than anything else. Most of the women who post their images here (with some notable exceptions) are probably just too embarrassed (timid?) to make the kind of renders you are now making. Making 'desirable' Vickys seems to better keep within the preoccupation you mentioned.

In any event, the upshot to this disdain of the male characters in Poser will continue to result in a darth of male oriented products in the MP. Any merchant who is really doing this for the money will always have to consider that the time spent on making male clothing will come as a loss of revenues compared to having that same time being spent on female clothing.

I don't know which merchant is better prepared to make the sacrifice and make male clothing anyway - the long time established merchant or the novice. I know that with the stuff I've made for M3 making a profit wasn't really the motivation - I just wanted to do it no matter what. I'm sure that will always be the only reason I make male clothing in the future too :)

• Rick

I have purchased a few merchant packs.. I don't use them to make products to sell, but I like having the options of trying to put together skins and make ups myself. Its fun for artist wanna-be's like me.  So are there too many.. not for me. What I would love to see  along the line of clothing.. is mix and match stuff you could buy just a piece or two.. or ten. Your choice. Not sure if that's feasible, but I know I'd buy more clothes if I could pick and choose what pieces I'd get. Instead of a big package I would only use one piece of..

just a thought,
myst

Quote - That's just what I'm bracing myself for, releasing a product that will bomb, because I'm afraid that noone but my few beta testing Apollo enthusiasts will be interested in it.

On the other hand, I'm working on a male nude series... in my gallery.... (GO LOOK !)  there, I said it :lol:

Well, you have to look at this way hon.  You originally wanted to make the robe for free, then it got more complicated and we all said sell it, you kept on adding more morphs and goodies and then it was a no brainer... SELL IT.  You may not make a fortune but look at all you learned during the creation process.  That in and of itself is worth it's weight in gold because your next set for whom ever you decide to support will be that much easier in knowing ahead of time what NOT to do!   Your quite a talented lady hon, you can build a mesh, rig it, add morphs and your textures are very nice as well.  Don't freak out too much.  You done good and it will be fine.  Remember that email I sent you.  Think positive.  You will get what you put out there.  If you think negative thoughts and put allot of fear into it then you may not sell much and think to yourself "see, I told you" but if you think positive thoughts and really put the intention into it that it will be fine regardless then you will be a winner, even if you only sell a few or 100's.  I know I preach but beating yourself up with worry is not the way to go about this. 

*I know I preach but beating yourself up with worry is not the way to go about this. 

Yea, but... I'm a professional worrier :lol:
Logical side chiming in:, yea, I know it'll be fine!

Connie, I'm a brand new merchant. And I focus on the male market. I am a worrier too, and let me tell you the results so far are very exciting to me. I've seen your promos and WIP. You are very good -- even if you overdid it on the addons (I'm prone to do the same, but fortunately I have someone who keeps putting on the brakes so to speak), you have learned a lot. It will be easier next time and you are that much further ahead. And I'd like to say that though some of this might be considered grunt work ... I love it. This represents a chance to share my vision in new ways and it is very exciting. Best of luck to you.

Connie,

"What baffles me is how many females are catering to the nude girl look as well.  The whole thing seems to revolve around male sexuality.... I gues it wouldn't be the only thing that does that.  Oh well..."

Obviously that is a major factor, and I have discussed this with quite a few ladies who post work of that nature. What came out of the discussion was a concensus that on average the female form seems more visually attractive than the male.....and curiously that was not me volunteering that opinion either!

Klutz.

Everything you'll put some time and effort in will be large better than something quickly done to make quick bucks.
Merchant ressources could be something to start from, but not to use as it is. I don't see the goal there.

As nomuse said just above, clothing is relatively simple. Clothing that fits fine and works in all normal poses and use is harder. Clothing that fits and works fine and sells a lot is VERY hard.
And you have not to forgot the HUGE amount of vendors at Rendo. It doesn't help.

actually I've always separated poserdom into these main categories in order of size:

Men who render the women they want to ahem achieve intimacy with

Women who render the women they want to be

People who make renders of RPG and game characters

People who make stuff with and for kids (the cute market)

Professional illustrators and historical image makers

I love your classifications Lyrra. I wonder if we couldn't get the PTB to rename the genres of the Poser gallery with these? It would certainly be more accurate then it is now :)

Heh heh - really, I'd love to drop down the list box and see those categories exactly as you have specified them :) lol :)

• Rick

A question that arises from that list is how many renders in each category actually make it off the user's computer.

I also think there's a large "Magpie Effect" in Poser product.  So many of us buy something that we never use in a render; buy because it just looked "really cool," or because the girl in the promo render is teh sexy, or because one day, One Day, we're going to render that Battle of Gettysburg we've been promising ourselves and when that day comes we're going to need this pair of period mustaches...

(Oh, and let's not forget, you buy because Aiko 3.0 became available for free, and you of course downloaded her, but now she has nothing to wear.....)

Quote -
Obviously that is a major factor, and I have discussed this with quite a few ladies who post work of that nature. What came out of the discussion was a concensus that on average the female form seems more visually attractive than the male.....and curiously that was not me volunteering that opinion either!

Interesting. I don't find it to be the case for me personally.  Then again, I'm often not very mainstream in my tastes and interests.

Very interesting thread.

I've been making freebies for a couple of years now, and I always strive for quality. That's just my pride - whatever I release into the freebie section is as good as I can make it with my current skill set.

In a way, nomuse is right, you can "get away", sort of, with freebies that don't have all the morphs, or don't have a good UV map, or don't bend perfectly.

In another way I disagree.
Releasing freebies is the best way to build a reputation. If you're known for consistently releasing top quality freebies, your entry into the marketplace will be much smoother.
Aery_Soul has been mentioned. Not only does Aery_Soul release top quality marketplace items - that sell pretty well despite being fairly expensive, Aery_Soul also releases top quality freebies. Same goes for Danie and Marforno.

Freestuff is promo material. If you release good quality freestuff, customers will have faith in the quality of your commercial items.

Thanks a bunch guys and gals for your encouraging words :)

Lyrra, that's a pretty common sense classification. :)
I think I'll be making a series of male-centric images for a while, if it kills me.

Nomuse, that's a very good point too. There's a lot of that stuff happening. I too am guilty of buying a lot more stuff then I ever used. .... for that Gettysburg render :lol:

Buying and not using it...

Could you figure the other day i was pretty near to buy a V3 outfit... i already bought some time ago!! Oo lol
I have so much stuff in my runtimes i never use, and when i'm doing a render, nothing could fit the scene! ^^

Could you figure the other day i was pretty near to buy a V3 outfit... i already bought some time ago!! Oo lol*

*Luckily both Rendo and Daz will tell us if you bought something already. If they don't I'd have multiple copies of several items! 

TBH I am a 'Collector' rather than a 'User.' :blushing:

..................but I can handle that! :crying:

Klutz  :rolleyes: :woot:

Hey Conniekat8

I just dropped by to say hi,  and echo what RAMWolff said.  You have a great talent in clothes making,  that's why I asked you to model clothes for Plain Jane.

Cheers

Pat

Awww, Thank you for the vote of confidence Patorak!  
I still plan on doing clothes for her... when I unbury myself from current stuff...  Especially the Wizard Robe.

You're welcome!  Now,  the Wizard Robe is not a mouse,  quit battin' it around and get it to market!

As for Plain Jane,  I'll send the new version when you're ready.  Make it soon though,  DAZ has given me the green light for all three versions.

HAH, that was funny Pat!!  Kat battin the robe around like a mousie....   Uh, ok, I'll shut up now and go away.  I think I've inhailed too many salon odors again!! 

Pass them odors around and I'll put on some Pink Floyd!  LOL! 

Yaaaay, finally my silly brain relented and is having ideas/putting together a scene for promo's.

Cool!  Was it the odors...Pink Floyd...or have you been into the catnip!

I think all of the above :lol:
Plus the sight of Ramwolff suffering from my creative block :tt2:

Man, my power goes out for the day and I come back to find this thread turned into a Kissy thingy. LOL.

Quote - I think all of the above :lol:
Plus the sight of Ramwolff suffering from my creative block :tt2:

ARF ARF ARF 

Quote - Man, my power goes out for the day and I come back to find this thread turned into a Kissy thingy. LOL.

You may want to choose your words more carefully.  I do NOT kiss just any thingy!!

Remember, don't sweat the petty things.....

....and don't pet the sweaty things!

Me neither :m_tongue2:

Sweat... pet... ahem  :blushing:

I don't pet sweaty pets.  It gets a bit ripe in the room and sticky too! 

Quote - I don't pet sweaty pets.  It gets a bit ripe in the room and sticky too! 

Like when I give my kitty a bath

Uh, kitty + bath = blood bath from what I remember!! LOL

The quality factor is why there is little new. It takes more know how and time and equipment plus there is more programs now to please.

I actually look for new artists stuff and buy it because it's usually cheaper and sometimes I get lucky too. I feed on the fact that they have to sell for cheap because they don't have the sales volume and are not noticed among the community yet.

I've foound some excellent products that way and hopefully buying their stuff and leaving them good feed back keeps them making more. Eventually after they have payed their dues, they too will get a premium for what they build and their name will be in the "Poser 3D Hall Of Fame". 

I don't buy anymore. All I see is nothing but fantasy sex stuff for clothes.

Not my cup of tea.

I just dl the freebies.

Freebies are more orginal than the stuff you buy in my opinion.

Quote - The quality factor is why there is little new. It takes more know how and time and equipment plus there is more programs now to please.

I disagree with one aspect of it. If it works in Poser and doesn't have Poser-specific aspects (dynamics mostly, and the poser-specific compression in some cases), then it works in D|S. What other programs does one need to satisfy besides those two? It's a lot like saying that application makers are having an impossible time because nowadays they write programs to satisfy Windows, OSX, and in many cases Linux too... this isn't necessarily true either, and here's why: In applications programming, like making Poser stuff, the trick is to think ahead. If I avoid having an item rely on specific features of one 'platform' (be it DirectX in Windows or Dynamic Cloth in Poser), then 'porting' it is drop easy (for example, the DAZ|Studio app uses Qt for its user interface, which means it only has to write the UI once - Qt is cross-platform capable. App makers code for OpenGL and avoid DirectX for the same reason). You can do the same by avoiding 'proprietary traps' when you build your stuff. Seriously - UV Mapping is the same, Joints behave the same way, etc. So, I guess I'm not seeing the obstacles that you do. As for why quality overall kinda sucks, with gems of goodness buried within? The answer is simple. There are a lot of people who slam out items using helper tools and pre-made resources without regard to what's actually going on. They just don't think ahead. It's easier to replicate body curves, loft them, and NURB your way to a mesh (or just use one of a couple pre-made clothes maker app helpers and slice on it), than it is to build a mesh with regard to polygon efficiency, joints, seams, morphs, and other consderations. These have always existed, just that the mistakes are easier to see now. Some folks take the time and do it right, and others do not. /P

Considering quality,  I think we should look at the other side too.  I mean what is Poser?  At the core of the program what is it and what is it intended for.  Let's also consider Poser dogma as well.  Is Poser dogma compatible with Poser ?

Quote - I don't buy anymore. All I see is nothing but fantasy sex stuff for clothes.

What kinds of things do you like?

Quote - Considering quality,  I think we should look at the other side too.  I mean what is Poser?  At the core of the program what is it and what is it intended for.  Let's also consider Poser dogma as well.  Is Poser dogma compatible with Poser ?

IMO, Poser catma is better than Poser dogma but that's just me. :biggrin: