I have several high-end 3D applications but keep returning to Poser because it has very good features for character rendering and animation.
I'm just wondering what people would be prepared to pay for a version of Poser that is stable, with good lighting (global illumination, true radiosity, better render engine, etc.)
People seem to want a low price program, then go out and spend hundreds, if not  thousands on content for it, then complain about how Poser has so many problems.
Personally, I'd be prepared to spend $500 for a better Poser, fully tested, without the glitches, and with some better features.
If others agree, we better let the programmers know before we get the potentially buggy, albeit cheap, Poser 8.

 i'd pay that much. if i could make a product without poser fighting me every step of the way, it'd pay for poser within a week or two.

Isn't that what the soon to be release Poser PRO is for?

Or, as many seem to do, they get Vue (in one of it's incarnations) for the better lighting and rendering capabilities.

Right now, folks are just left in the dark as to Smith-Micro's plans.

I picked up C6 for better options, but can't make heads or tails out of it. I'm so used to Poser after 2 years, some might say "comfortable," that C6 looks like rocket science with it's alien interface and too many things to control. (I once thought this of Poser's Material Room).

But I'll stick with P6 and P7; Poser PRO or 8 would really have to abandon Firefly for me to even bite at it. If they got a better Render engine, I'd be willing to pay more. Another hundred, maybe.

-- Jeff

I pass.  With my skill level and the fact that using Poser is a hobby / art therapy for me, I do not need any further complications, complexity, nor expenditure. 

Eternal Hobbyist

 

I second that.

A Poser that can actually let you render scenes (and not just one figure renders) without all the nonsense (memory usuage warnings, rendering shut-downs, the endless crashes), one that can give you true lighting, a render engine that anyone can live with, oh I can go on and on and on... 

Heck yeah, I'd be so for it.

JB

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

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I dont think it matters what anyone is prepared to pay. Some of the problems of poser are just not fixable, cause fixing them would mean that they would have to make poser incompatible with most if not all of the existing content. Like eg if they moved from the crappy joints they use now to a better weight-map based system, most figures and conforming clothes would need to be retooled for it. You can guess how attractive that would be to merchants that barely even make a profit right now.

Personally what i would want is for them to make '8' have a variety of options for exporting to other apps. And none of that hosted scene crap like they are doing with 'pro,' Poser 8 should support COLLADA and FBX at the very least. That way we can use apps for rendering and animating that are years ahead of anything they could add in poser.

infinity10 and I agree.
For those who are happy with the current 4 versions, there's always the option to stay with them.
They're cheap, and can do a great job.

Personally, I'll be buggered if I'll spend more time importing characters and scenes into other applications to get nice lighting. No offence to Interposer and other plug-in makers as they've done a great job.
When I do import, I've lost my skin shaders and have to virtually re-do the scene over anyway.
I love Poser, know it very well, and would love to stay with it.
But 3 hours attempting to render a 2 figure scene last night has busted by balls for the last time (well almost).
I don't know what Pro has to offer but my suspicions are that it will be another open beta release.

2/18/08

Sadly, the Poser programming team follows the beat of their own drummer. Over the years many users have simply given up on making suggestions, or even complaining about features that don't work right.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

The problem is that making the figures work requires many packages to be sold. This means a low price is essential. Then you could add on for the real heavy users. The big problem is finding the right sweet spot between giving it away (Daz Studio) and charging too much (Max).
You want to sell many packages (even if most people won't actually use the software).
You hope for good reviews (so the heavy users actually consider it).
Then you can sell add-ons (and actually begin making a profit).
So all you can hope for is a relatively cheap but reasonably good working package that maybe supports extensions. That way you can spend your money on buying extensions you may need now or in the future.

In reality Firefly is not a bad renderer, it's the limitations build into the implementation that causes the problems. Most of those limitations are due to compatibility problems with older versions. To really improve Poser at lot of backward compatibility will have to be dropped (in many cases converters are possible but the result will not always be pleasing). Many modern 3D features must be added (most are already supported in Firefly but can't be used because Poser has no way of supporting them in memory or its external files).

So am I willing to pay more? The answer isn't simple. No, the basic package should actually be even lower than it is at the moment. Yes, for a package offering all the features I need. Should there ever be a version of Poser with a choice between a base package and an all bells and whistles included full blown version, my choice would be the full version and I would be willing to pay up to $1200 for it (but for that price it must actually all work properly and I must be able to actually understand it all).
Personally I think the current version of Poser should cost about $200 to create the best sales. Any future version shouldn't cost much more but some plug-ins and extensions could cost more than the base package (selling a few at high profit may make more then selling many at minimal profit but you first need a large base to be able to sell the high price items). Poser shouldn't try to compete with the higher priced packages (base from $1000 and upwards) nor should it try to enter the Daz Studio market. It has its own niche, serve it well and you can make a profit, ignore it and you're bound to fail. Poser is a package with a great potential but nobody has actually succeeded in fulfilling the potential (as is proven by the continued shifting of the package from one company to the next). I have little hope that the current owners understand the market and possibilities enough to properly develop and market it.

$50 for the update. I'm serious, very serious. As far as I'm concerned Poser had it's best days, P7 is a complete joke compared to P6 and they still ask money for it. Hardly anything new in it and still they ask full price. If the Poser team keeps on releasing these mediocre new version which only really contain minor updates, I'll never buy a Poser version again. Except for the content, Poser 7 should have been a free Poser 6 Service Pack release.

Why do I only want to pay $50...... well, compared to D/S that's what the extra's that Poser is offering compared to D/S is worth. Those extra's aren't worth the $129 upgrade price they ask at the moment for sure.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

I think those problem of a new riggign system are fixable, when they also made a kind of conversion program next to the new update: they could introduce a more modern kind of rigging system with weight maps like other apps do, and improve their joint-sytem and introduce a whole new range of models. In the mean time the conversion program should be able to upgrade the old models and their clothes (like a kind of wardrobewizzard) If they also add better animation control and soft body dynamics it would make the party complete.

One the other side I see a tendency to make things less complicated and esoteric: The material room is a great tool for making shaders, as well is the python scripting tool but a lot of artists don't have the background for using them. For some things you need to have a reasonable knowledge of mathematics, and know something about computerlanguages.
For the common artist I would be nice if there were a lot of prebaked settings for lighting and rendering like a menu with settings like: fast draft render, reasonable good render, production render, manic perfectionist render (caution: may take days to finish)  romantic indoor lighting, cool indoor lighting, sunny day, rainy day, moonlight night etc., etc.
Settings that everyone can understand without having to tweak every cryptic node in the material room. I don't think the materialroom should disappear because there also a lot of people who like to work under the hood, so a whole bunch of new nodes who also be pretty.

I should like a poser like this and of course you can add a whole lot of more features, but that would take too long here. Perhaps it's an idea to make a sticky thread here with a Poser 8 wishlist.
For such an upgrade I think a pricetag of $800,- is not too much, you can compair that with Modo, Cinema4D, Rhino and other medium range applications. I should pay that but I'm sure there are a lot of poser-users that will hook off.

Regards,

Bopperthijs

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

Better renderering, lighting and stability wouldn't involve much backward compatibility, though I may well be wrong.
What gets me is that I can go on C4D for 6 hours and hammer nails with it without a problem. With Poser, a cat farts down the street and I'm rebooting, defragging, removing characters and hair, trying to figure out what's the problem.
I don't want all the "bells and whistles" and pay $1000+ for it, just $500 buck for a stable program with a few modern features.

Stability is a must, otherwise, everybody will hook off.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

To put things into perspective, I spent $250 at the supermarket last night for the week's groceries.
In a week they'll be gone.
There is a great potential to capture the mid-market in 3D for Poser, which can never compete with Daz Studio for free, and shouldn't try to.
Between Max and C4D, and Daz Studo is the $500 mid range. There's the market.

I started as a Poser user some years ago but I've now moved to Vue because of it's far superior lighting and render capabilities so Poser is only now used for scene set up, so from a personal perspective I don't need anyhting more from it!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

Quote - To put things into perspective, I spent $250 at the supermarket last night for the week's groceries.  In a week they'll be gone.

Okay, now try the All Software Diet for a week.

On another note, Poser has shitty features for character animation and rendering.  What brings you in particular back is CONTENT, in that there's tons and tons of it.  The next version of Poser isn't including any real improvements to render quality, most specifically NO GI, so it will remain a low end, low quality rendering app.  Look at how very, very few actual features are going to be included in the new version:
http://graphics.smithmicro.com/filemanager/startdownload/1916/PoserPro_Comparison_Chart.pdf

Before you start suggesting they jack up their price, consider what you're buying - a very minimal update.

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These are all very good reasons for a code re-write.
I don't want to dis Poser, it is actually a very powerful program, just certain aspects let it down.
I'd hate to see an end to Poser but it's pretty much in the programmers' hands
Surly we could get rid of the shittiness for a few hundred bucks per copy.

The weakest part of Poser is the render quality imo, and they're not improving that.  I might be suckered into buying a copy if they built GI into it, but they're not going to.

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I'd sell my little sister for a GI capable version of Poser. One that didn't crash that is.
They're "not going to" is because people keep buying the shite on offer.
Do the users actually have a dialogue with the programmers, and if not, why not!

Why bother, Vue does lighting including GI and GR already, it imports complete Poser scenes, renders better and supports 64 bit systems completely so I can use all my RAM on a scene, Poser has none of these and the 64 bit support coming [allegedly] is only  a half baked version anyway!

Injustice will be avenged.
Cofiwch Dryweryn.

 id pay 200 thats it

the vue vs poser thing for me is that. sometimes you can get the scene you want put together in poser and it'll render, other times you know you have put in a lot less stuff and it will not render,

but you just don't get that with vue, vue is pretty much always reliable, you can get billions of polygons into a scene, have GR lighting, set the renderer to maximum quality with the lighting to max quality, and it will render.

another bonus with vue is, if it isn't gonna render something, it will say so at the beginning!!! if it starts to render it tends to finish the render, poser is almost exactly the opposite of this.

i'm someone who likes to render in poser every now and then BTW, but there is a problem with the software, when you have a top end machine, but the software stops you from making any use of it!!

In the comparison pjz99 linked us too, they write that the renderer (even the P7 one) supports Subdivision Surfaces. Do they mean smoothing with that, or is there any way to switch to Catmull-Clark?

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

If they're talking about how it's done in P7, they're talking about Reyes-type polygon smoothing, where a form of subdivision is used (and it might even be Catmull-Clark, I dunno) but it's not exactly the same animal.  I don't expect it would be any different in the new version of Poser coming up.

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Quote -  id pay 200 thats it

Is that the upgrade price or full price :)

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Quote - These are all very good reasons for a code re-write.

well, i guess it is a good thing that they have re-written most of the base code then.

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Quote - Before you start suggesting they jack up their price, consider what you're buying - a very minimal update.

But Poser 7 Pro is not an "update", it is Poser 7 with some added features.

expecting better this or that in Poser 7 Pro is unrealistic.

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Two of Poser's most radical and welcome changes IMHO are the joint editor and the material room + Firefly. Otherwise Poser has remained fundamentally the same for nearly 20 years. There is no reason to expect that (eventually) Poser 8 will be much different that what we use now.

Regarding subdivision surface rendering of polygons: according to the comparison chart at Smith Micro, it's already supported in P7 so it's probably not the Catmull-Clark type, possibly closer to polygon smoothing which is nothing like a subD.

Regarding GI: It's difficult enough rendering more than a couple of figures. Throwing GI into the mix will only showcase an entirely new class of system hangs and expressive verbal poetry.

Regarding rigging: I'm not so eager to see weight maps in Poser, specifically with DAZ characters. If you want a sure way to induce a headache, that's one. I'd love to see some utility to convert falloff zones to weight maps, but since there isn't one I could assume that the conversion is not practical so it's back to doing it by hand.

Well, Ashely, yo upretty much got your answer. Poser is an entry level 3d application, and the majority of it's users are entry evel consumers. Yes, they wand the moon and stars, but no, they don't want to pay for it at all, and the poser developement team probably realized that years ago.

Their target market demographics wouldn;t pay the needed amount for a developement upgrade that advanced, and costly, and as Fixer stated, the the cost of vue 6 infinite, you already have advanced lighting and rendering solutions, PLUS all the wonderful ecosystem, land and sky possibilities. however people view it also as FAR too expensive to be worthwhile.

Personally, I'd want to integrate my poser content with organics, so Poser working with Vue was one of the smartest moves EF and Eon did.

Something else consumers would hate, would be the VERY slow rendertimes.. many poser users have systems quite old, and in many cases system starved. We see posts all the time about trying to run poser 7 on win 98, or why it's crashing with only 512 ram.

That's no to say that there aren;'t "power users" with advanced 64 bit suystems, and 4 gigs plus available, but they are the minority when it comes to poser users, and you really NEED that current tech if you want advanced 3d rendering options.

You actually hear a lot of people complain about Vue6I's "issues", when in fact, most of those complaints again are from people with ram starved older systems. Put a fast current system with a ton or ram available, and Vue6I is quite a stable happy camper.

Most Poser users want cheap, easy 3d options.. heck many of them don't even want to use things liek the advanced material room, hair, or dynamic clothing, and are afraid to even look at features we've already had available for a number of years.

Look at some of the things advanced users like BagginsBill, and Tiny have done with the material room, and dynamic hair, and you quickly see poser DOES have some great advanced features, rivalling some other high end apps (lightwave just added it's own materail node setup similar tio poser's this year, and poser has had it for MANY years now) but the majority of the user base most likely wouldn't use them anyway.

And that's who you develope for.. the majority of your customers. Hence the developement now of Poser Pro.. a version of poser for higher end users.

And we've actually seen cries of outrage about that.. a Poser for people with other high priced utilites, however poser pro isn't free or dirt cheap to the masses.

They complain abotu Poser pro costing $400, however the programs it works with are anywhere from $1000 to $4000! makes no sense at all, really.

The smartest (and right) solution IMHO, is what's already available and what's being developed.. Poser as a plug in of sorts for higher end applications with mor efeature rich render engines that are already being used for pro animation and hi end rendering.

I would pay $400 for a "Poser Pro" that can be used with my existing higher end apps... I wouldn't pay $800 for yet another higher end 3d platform to contend with that might (or might not) be compatible with my other needed high end applications.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Gareee is correct -- Poser Pro is not intended to be just another low-end hobbyist upgrade.  To be able to drive the program & to take full advantage of its features will require the end user to have a 64 bit system equipped with sufficient RAM + other, more expensive, high-end applications installed.  Like it or not, that sort of setup simply doesn't come in on the lower end of the price scale.......it's certainly not free, nor is it near-free: which is what some seem to actually want, without coming right out and saying it.

Now, having said that -- whether or not Poser Pro will ultimately prove to be worth the $500 for the full version -- or whatever amount it'll cost in scale for an upgrade from Poser 7 -- remains to be seen.  I, for one, am willing to wait to find out -- without condemning it in advance of its release.

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Quote - But Poser 7 Pro is not an "update", it is Poser 7 with some added features.

expecting better this or that in Poser 7 Pro is unrealistic.

How do you figure?  I can certainly expect better features, why would it be unrealistic to expect better features? 

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Quote - > Quote - But Poser 7 Pro is not an "update", it is Poser 7 with some added features.

expecting better this or that in Poser 7 Pro is unrealistic.

How do you figure?  I can certainly expect better features, why would it be unrealistic to expect better features? 

what i ment was you can't really expect them to fix or improve existing features. they may add features to make it "pro" but it is still Poser 7.

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Quote - I have several high-end 3D applications but keep returning to Poser because it has very good features for character rendering and animation.
I'm just wondering what people would be prepared to pay for a version of Poser that is stable, with good lighting (global illumination, true radiosity, better render engine, etc.)
People seem to want a low price program, then go out and spend hundreds, if not  thousands on content for it, then complain about how Poser has so many problems.
Personally, I'd be prepared to spend $500 for a better Poser, fully tested, without the glitches, and with some better features.
If others agree, we better let the programmers know before we get the potentially buggy, albeit cheap, Poser 8.

I'm using DAZ studio and Cararra and Vue more and more. Poser is more of a buzzword for content for me, rather then preference towards the program.
Having invested in Cararra and Vue and some other high end things, I would only acquire higher end Poser if I had to get it in order to produce compatible content. (Sort of only if it was a good business decision)

As far as a program with no glitches... that ideal is about as realistic and world peace and end to poverty. Ain't gonna happen.

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Quote - what i ment was you can't really expect them to fix or improve existing features. they may add features to make it "pro" but it is still Poser 7.

Again how do you figure?  First, they are indeed 'fixing and improving' existing features:

• 64-bit rendering
• network rendering
• background rendering
• 'gamma correction for linear rendering'
  (and incidentally that's about one third of the advertised differences!)

The remainder is pretty much Reiss Bodystudio (the hosting plugins), which imo is a reason not to buy. 

Garree you're willing to pay $400 for Reiss Bodystudio? and you realize you'll have to buy the base + hosting plugin?  Xeno you have that $500 ready to pay up? 

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I suspect for the high end users it's targetted towards, $500 will be a drop in the bucket. One commercial job will pay for it 5 times over at least.

Heck look at the Worley plug-ins fo rlightwave.. just some plugins cost well over $500!

(And keep in mind, that lightwave  is now priced at the lower end of the commercial application spectrum... Max, XSI and Maya users are paying FAR more for plugins and applications.)

Everything is relative.. when you are making upward of $300,000 doing commercial work, a $500 application that facilitates that is not only dirt cheap, but it's tax deductable as well.

If yer running a $500 PC at home, then that's suddenly a huge amount of money.

I've seen people who won't shell out $50 to quadruple their ram, or hard drive storage because it's "too much".

I'm always amazed those same people though will regularly spend quite a bit a year on poser content.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

*I suspect for the high end users it's targetted towards, $500 will be a drop in the bucket. One commercial job will pay for it 5 times over at least.

*As a potential 'high end commercial user' I'm wondering why I would want to get Poser Pro... when I already have Max and Cararra and Cinema and Vue and few other apps.  What will it bring me that I don't already have?
Especially with Collada in existence, taking Poser content into high end applications is really easy. Last place that I want to use to assemble scenes is Poser. It's interface doesn't really allow for a very efficient 'production', which is rather important in commercial applications.

Even DAZ studio allows for much more efficient scene navigation and production. Unless I have to turn out a 'poser render' I prefer to assemble my scenes in D|S - when it comes to Lower end stuff.

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If I needed to use it for a job, hell yes! Commercial jobs pay FAR more then that cost, so it'd be a drop in the bucket.

The worley plugin for instant updated previews in lightwave costs 50% MORE then Poser Pro!

As i said, it's all relative. if you are working in 3d commercially, then utilites are your bread n butter, and if you can work faster, then they help you generate even more work, and that increases your income.

Was lightwave expensive when I bought it? YES. Have I made over 50 TIMES my money back using it? YES! In that light, lightwave was vastly underpriced, and I owe my livlihood to newtek.

If I was just a consumer tinkering around with this stuff? I'd probably be playing around with hexagon2, Daz studio, and gimp.

It all depends on how seriously you play with this stuff. I play with lightwave, zbrush, vue6I and such.. and it's far cheaper then a drug or gambling habit.. LOL!

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - Xeno you have that $500 ready to pay up? 

I don't think that it'll end up costing $500.  That's the previously announced full price for the full version -- I am assuming that there will  be an upgrade offer (of some sort) available to Poser 7 users -- even for the full version of Poser Pro.  I could be wrong about that, but it's what I'm expecting to see.  shrug  It's possible that they might even decide to lower the prices overall from their previously announced levels -- which (IIRC) were announced before Smith Micro was running the show.

Frankly, I'm not worried about it.  I have Vue & Carrara, too.  But Poser has a gigantic userbase, plus tons of 3rd-party support.

I'm of the opinion that the reports of Poser's demise have been greatly exaggerated.  It's got a long ways to go before that becomes a serious possibility.

People have been predicting DOOM!!!!! :scared: for DAZ, for Rendo, and for the Poser hobby in general for years now.  It ain't happened yet.  In fact, it's all just gotten bigger & more active. 

Based upon their track record so far, I'm not inclined to give the doomsayers very much credit.

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Connie: Not everyone has all those utilities you mentioned. And poser pro would be MUCH chear then say a Max license.

Poser Pro isn't targetted at the higher 3d end of things.. it's targetted towards the lower commercial end I think, with inroads towards the higher end.

From a video standpoint, just having the network and 64 bit rendering might make compositing poser content more viable for many businesses. (many 3d lower end uses don't even have fully rendered scenes.. just characters that are superimposed over pre rendered or live video footage.

I came originall more from a video editing end of things that grew into 3d, and I can see many commercial applications for poser pro with just it's rendering enhancements.

(If you were around back then, think of the old Newtek Video Toaster stuff.)

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - > Quote - what i ment was you can't really expect them to fix or improve existing features. they may add features to make it "pro" but it is still Poser 7.

Again how do you figure?  First, they are indeed 'fixing and improving' existing features:

• 64-bit rendering
• network rendering
• background rendering
• 'gamma correction for linear rendering'
  (and incidentally that's about one third of the advertised differences!)

Ok, since we really don't know what poser is going to do in the future let me put it this way. if these new features appear in Poser 8 then Poser Pro is not Poser 7 Pro, it is Poser 7.5 Pro.

If these features do not appear in Poser 8 (and currently there is no reason to belive they will) then this is a parallell development of Poser like Vue 6 Esprit vs Vue 6 Infinate.

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Xeno you went from being willing to pay $500 to talking about "Poser is doomed".  You were actually the one to name $500 as a figure.

Gareee I think you're in the [edit]vanishing minority for being willing to pay $400 for Poser scene hosting (already available for far less money, between Reiss and interPoser), given that you won't be using the renderer anyway.  Can I have your excess $250 in exchange for links to other available scene hosting utilities?  Tell you what, I'll give you a good deal and let them go for $200.

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Quote -
It all depends on how seriously you play with this stuff. I play with lightwave, zbrush, vue6I and such.. and it's far cheaper then a drug or gambling habit.. LOL!

Well, for work, I'm a director of Data Visualizations. We do architectural and terrain visualizations...  from technical presentations to builder commercials and infomercials on housing developments.  I have so many different applications in my arsenal that I don't even remember the list off the top of my head. Max, Cinema, Lightwave, Rhino, Vue, Cararra, Zbrush, Silo, Modo, Autocad... it's about a two page list. I also have my own personal copy of Poser installed hire... and have not once had the need to use poser for the actual work. If I did, I'd buy a copy of it in a second, as I approve and make final decisions on our software upgrades and purchases, which run in tens of thousands of dollars a year.

In most visualizations, Poser figures are too high res. There's abundance of low rez content out there for visualizations, and for a professional place with a professional budget, buying couple thousand dollars in content that works with our high end applications is a no brainer.

When it comes to using Poser, I can't justify using it, because whatever I do in it takes two to three times longer to do then in many 'high end apps', and this is where it costs me the most money. purchase price of few hundred dollars is not the issue.
The issue is that if it takes me $30,000 worth of man hours to produce a piece that has a budget of $10,000, and would take $10,000 man hours to produce in Max (which would be one of our lower cost pieces), I just lost $20,000 bucks.  That's where the real cost lays, and something most hobbyists don't take into the account when defending their favorite application.

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Quote - Ok, since we really don't know what poser is going to do in the future let me put it this way. if these new features appear in Poser 8 then Poser Pro is not Poser 7 Pro, it is Poser 7.5 Pro.
If these features do not appear in Poser 8 (and currently there is no reason to belive they will) then this is a parallell development of Poser like Vue 6 Esprit vs Vue 6 Infinate.

Helloooooo, the feature list for upcoming Poser Pro has already been published!  We know exactly what it's going to do in the future.
http://graphics.smithmicro.com/filemanager/startdownload/1916/PoserPro_Comparison_Chart.pdf

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Quote - Connie: Not everyone has all those utilities you mentioned. And poser pro would be MUCH chear then say a Max license.

Poser Pro isn't targetted at the higher 3d end of things.. it's targetted towards the lower commercial end I think, with inroads towards the higher end.

I thought that just few posts ago I saw you say that it was targeted towards a high end users - which is why I posted from the 'high end' point of view in the first place.

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Quote - Xeno you went from being willing to pay $500 to talking about "Poser is doomed".  You were actually the one to name $500 as a figure.

I......fear that the point here somewhat escapes me.  Yes, I did use the $500 figure in my first post, because that's what we've been told that it will be (for the full version).  And then, in my second post, I went on to speculate that it likely won't cost me (or other Poser 7 users) $500, as I am anticipating some sort of sliding-scale upgrade offer, as is normal under these conditions.  However -- I likewise acknowledged that things might not work out that way in the end.  Because just like with so much else: we won't know the information for a dead-on certainty until such time as Poser Pro actually hits the street.  I don't run Smith Micro -- so technically they could end up doing whatever they've decided to do -- and not whatever we forumites have told them that they have to do.

Until Poser Pro goes up for sale -- my guess is as good as yours.    My own caveat being that I'll admit to the fact that what I'm doing is guessing.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - > Quote - Ok, since we really don't know what poser is going to do in the future let me put it this way. if these new features appear in Poser 8 then Poser Pro is not Poser 7 Pro, it is Poser 7.5 Pro.

If these features do not appear in Poser 8 (and currently there is no reason to belive they will) then this is a parallell development of Poser like Vue 6 Esprit vs Vue 6 Infinate.

Helloooooo, the feature list for upcoming Poser Pro has already been published!  We know exactly what it's going to do in the future.
http://graphics.smithmicro.com/filemanager/startdownload/1916/PoserPro_Comparison_Chart.pdf

That's what we know as of this particular moment in time.  But I wouldn't take that pdf chart as being carved in stone.  To do so is.......risky.

The released version of Poser Pro could end up being better......or worse......than what that chart says.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Ok, Connie, for clarification, it's targetted towards "higher then consumer- lower end commercial use". I did even state earlier that IMHO it was targetted at lower end commercial use.. and that's still quite a far cry higher then "joe consumer" wants to pay for a new playtoy.

There are a lot of levels of commercial use, and I can see a use for poser pro at some levels... maybe not at YOUR level, but at other commercial application user's levels.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - I......fear that the point here somewhat escapes me. 

Read the subject line.

My Freebies

Poser is great for quickie local furniture mart commercials.  It might not fly for advanced archviz renders: but it'll do for selling $295 living room sets from Joe's Discount Furniture Warehouse, and advertising on the local UHF channel.

Although I think that the ambitions of the SM folks are actually aimed a little higher than that.......we'll see whether or not they can achieve them.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Well, I already HAVE a good Poser 7... so that would be my price then.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - > Quote - I......fear that the point here somewhat escapes me. 

Read the subject line.

I wasn't referring to the OP's point -- I was referring to your point.....whatever it was.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

It seems I'm destined to just be shouted down by the cheerleading team, common sense be damned.  I guess you can just refuse to follow the thread if you really want to, I can't make you ^_^

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Quote - Ok, Connie, for clarification, it's targetted towards "higher then consumer- lower end commercial use". I did even state earlier that IMHO it was targetted at lower end commercial use.. and that's still quite a far cry higher then "joe consumer" wants to pay for a new playtoy.

There are a lot of levels of commercial use, and I can see a use for poser pro at some levels... maybe not at YOUR level, but at other commercial application user's levels.

Gotcha!   When you first mentioned high end.. I went for high end point of view... LOL.  I'm sort of the bottom of the pile on the high end 3D side too.

For mid-range production, which I do out of the house as a side work for my little company, Poser Pro may have some merits. So far, not enough to get me really interested in it. For production tools I tend not to jump onthe newest thing out there, because any new software release needs a bug ironing out period, and when you;re using it for production, a small business outfit can be especially voulnerable to halts in production.

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?

OK -- we'll all agree to 'follow the thread' -- whatever green fields the thread happens to wander off into.

And who's cheerleading?  It ain't me.  Unless if admitting to at least the bare possibility that Poser Pro might (might) turn out to be better than some are expecting constitutes "cheerleading".

shrug  There's always the chance that Poser Pro could turn out to be a disappointment -- even a big disappointment.  But I'm not among those who regard disaster for Poser just around the corner as an absolute certainty.

I prefer to look forward to the possibility that I might even like it (Poser Pro).  Until it's actively demonstrated to be otherwise: I'll go with that possibility.  I'll deal with the negatives when they actually occur.

Admittedly, it's easy to select the negatives in advance.  It's a favorite hobby for many.  Perhaps it's a form of "negative cheerleading", or "anti-cheerleading".

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I won't decide how much I think Poser Pro is worth until after it is released.
I will believe a pre release feature list when hell freezes over.
If it seems like a good expenditure, then I'll buy it. If not, not.

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

Quote - I won't decide how much I think Poser Pro is worth until after it is released.
I will believe a pre release feature list when hell freezes over.
If it seems like a good expenditure, then I'll buy it. If not, not.

BRAVO!

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I'm not really cheerleading either.. if poser pro can render faster and speed up my workflow doing ad renders, that alone might easly be worth the extra cash to me. if it doesn't well, then since I really don't have a burning desire to integrate with the high end apps listed, then there isn't much benefit to me personally.

My workflow is creation in lightwave, and then rendering in either poser or vue6I if I need organic background or skys.. and what I have already does that for me, and for what I choose to create.

I've spent DAYS sometimes doing promo renders for my products, and if I can cut that rendering time in half, poser pro would definitly be worthwhile as a time saver.

Since I can also include animated popups in my products at daz, using the network rendering might even become a useful frequently used feature.

Those really are my "high interest" features in poser pro.. I'd have to look at the rest of them to see what really would be useful to me personally.

And if I could save 3 or 4 days a month, that would give me more playtime, and more product developement time, so Poser pro would definitely be a fwelcome addition.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - > Quote - Ok, since we really don't know what poser is going to do in the future let me put it this way. if these new features appear in Poser 8 then Poser Pro is not Poser 7 Pro, it is Poser 7.5 Pro.

If these features do not appear in Poser 8 (and currently there is no reason to belive they will) then this is a parallell development of Poser like Vue 6 Esprit vs Vue 6 Infinate.

Helloooooo, the feature list for upcoming Poser Pro has already been published!  We know exactly what it's going to do in the future.
http://graphics.smithmicro.com/filemanager/startdownload/1916/PoserPro_Comparison_Chart.pdf

But we dont know what will be in Poser 8 I don't think i'm clearly communicating my point, let me try again.

I stand by my point. Poser 7 Pro is not an "update", it is Poser 7 with some added features.

I agree with your point "[you] can certainly expect better features" in the sence that Having these features will be better than not having them. However, we have no reason to believe that any of these features will be included in Poser 8 so Poser 7 Pro is not and "update" of Poser 7 (non-pro) even if it is an improvement in capabilities over Poser 7 (non-pro).

 

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I think Tyger Purr has hit it on the head very clearly.

Poser Pro is 7 Plus additional features for advanced users.

Poser 8... well we have no idea at ALL when or even IF there will be a poser 8, so that would be pure speculation.

I'd think Poser 8 would a have enhancements to Poser 7, and a "Poser 8 Pro" would include it's enhancements, and the additional ones in "Poser Pro" (7)

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - I won't decide how much I think Poser Pro is worth until after it is released.

That's pretty much what I do with any software... even upgrades.

Take Hexagon for example, Release 2.2 and it's randomly reordering of vertices was no problem for me, since I waited to upgrade. Once I saw what was at hand, I was able to decide I'm better off skipping that particular upgrade.  (Unlike for most people, my hexagon 2.1 runs very stable)

No Vista, No Autocad 2008, no 3D Studio 2008, no Poser 7...
Every now and then I do upgrade sooner, when there's a good reason to do so - like when Daz 1.8 made Collada work, and didn't break anything else in the process - it was worth upgrading.

So, I'll wait and see.

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for those of you considering buying poser pro: consider the following

Poser pro will use a collada exporter and have a "special version" of quidam to get external meshes rigged and into poser.

Collada is not as well supported export as FBX

I NEVER use poser to render if I can help it.
FBX is available as a plugin for Daz Studio (which is better than poser for the core activity of actually posing) This will transfer Morph targets, animation paths, Bones and weight maps from DS into the application of choice. It costs $100 but it can  save hours of work. I import the poser mesh with rig, and re-jig the rig (sorry for the onomatopoeia) to add controls in max.
I can then pose with a superior posing set
Daz studio is a lot faster than poser in everthing (xpt saving a file) and the obj export actually has absolute referencing for the texture maps....

So why would you EVER get poser pro?
Raj

Visit the Daz Studio forum and look at all the posts on plug ins including exporters that have issues and no solution in sight.

And if I were a business I sure as well wouldn't rely delivering product based on freeware with buggy exporters. Collada looks to be the up and coming transportable format, and the collada plugin is busted in DS.. has been for many months now, and not a peep on when/if it'll ever be fixed.

Ask people about the hexagon 2.2 update, and issues with it. You can;t base your business on IF someone MIGHT fix a pligin for software.. freeware or not.

Where's 64 bit rendering? Where's network rendering support? better yet, Where's the fix for scaling issues in DS that have existed unfixed for 2.5 YEARS now?

DS is a great way to enter the 3d world, but it's NOT yet yet ready for professional use.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

> Quote - It seems I'm destined to just be shouted down by the cheerleading team,

who you calling a cheerleader :-P

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

Quote - Visit the Daz Studio forum and look at all the posts on plug ins including exporters that have issues and no solution in sight.

Where's 64 bit rendering? Where's network rendering support? better yet, Where's the fix for scaling issues in DS that have existed unfixed for 2.5 YEARS now?

DS I only use only as a plugin for max. I dont render on it, and people with high end software wont want to render on it. so the "64 bit" rendering isn't an issue all. I havent noticed a scale problem as I have worked out the scale differential pretty accuratley.
Sure DS has its problems, what free program doesnt. Poser has its problems and I own it, just don't use it much.  The interface is really the worst part of the program. I have customized DS to have the same keyboard shortcuts as max and maya the layout is prettty well the same. you cant do that with poser, and I doubt you could with poser pro.
Poser fusion was a completely lame program (which I also now have) because it was based on the body studio plugin which was the peak of all lameness. What a waste of money...

I'm not sure where you are getting you information from but the Big 3 Maya, XSI, Max have invested more time and money in FBX. Sure collada is a nice open source exporting format and has a lot of potential, but its not there yet.

Raj

Quote -
I'm not sure where you are getting you information from but the Big 3 Maya, XSI, Max have invested more time and money in FBX. Sure collada is a nice open source exporting format and has a lot of potential, but its not there yet.

not knowing much about either i went and looked them up

I found FBX is an open format made by Autodesk (makers of Maya and Max) and Collada is an open format (based on XML) originally started by Sony.

What i found particularly interesting is that in the list of supporting programs in both formats appear "the big three" and DAZ.

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Quote - And if I were a business I sure as well wouldn't rely delivering product based on freeware with buggy exporters. Collada looks to be the up and coming transportable format, and the collada plugin is busted in DS.. has been for many months now, and not a peep on when/if it'll ever be fixed.

I think D|S 1.8, the latest version, has collada fixed.... cuz, I've been using it for a week now, with no issues.

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 If poser had

-a way to do motion capture with a special USB or whatever Motion capture suit
-Full renders at big size frame took seconds. Full animation in full render mode, say 1000 frames took less than a minute. 

If that cost 400 or even 450 i would definitely buy it

forget the $30,000 for the mocap studio

Yes waiting would seem to be a good idea.
Thanks all for your thoughts

2/19/08

***"Subject: How much would you pay for a good Poser?"

---

I already paid for a good, fast, stable, featureful Poser 7. It just hasn't arrived yet. Not that the Poser team didn't make a good stab at the project, but there is a huge amount of work to accomplish, a long list of features requested over the last several versions, and a number of bugs to fix. I await what I paid for.

On another point, isn't this a Poser Forum? I ask because sometimes it is hard to tell. I thought there were forums for Vue, Maya, Daz Studio, and others. Why does every topic turn into a "get rid of Poser and use [insert favorite sofware here]" discussion? Can't software package evangelists rave about their favorite software in the forums dedicated to that software? Does every one who doesn't use Poser feel obligated to haunt forums that obviously do not offer information about the software that they do use? Are these software cultists flirting with conversion back to Poserism?

Smith Micro has the resources to invest in Poser to advance the package along the lines that many of the users want. Seeing that the purchase of E-F America was in the works for a while, Poser Pro may be SM's idea anyway. It remains to be seen if SM will feel that the Poser line is worth the investment. Getting a service release to address known bugs and issues would do a lot to convince me and everyone that SM is serious about developing Poser further.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Quote -  If poser had
-Full renders at big size frame took seconds. Full animation in full render mode, say 1000 frames took less than a minute. 

I don't think even high end apps are capable of stuff like that. Maybe on a supercomputer.

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Quote - On another point, isn't this a Poser Forum? I ask because sometimes it is hard to tell. I thought there were forums for Vue, Maya, Daz Studio, and others.

 

Because we started talking about a Poser version which is supposedly going to be aimed at mid to higher end audience, and competing with some of those applications.

Quote - Why does every topic turn into a "get rid of Poser and use [insert favorite sofware here]" discussion?

Because a number of people moan and complain about how Poser isn't working well enough, and wishing for features found in higher end applications?
It's pretty simple, If an application doesn't fit someone's bill, use something else that fits better. Trying to get Poser to change in a direction some people wish is a lot like a tail trying to wag the dog. 

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2/19/08

*"Because we started talking about a Poser version which is supposedly going to be aimed at mid to higher end audience, and competing with some of those applications."

Hmm, If some one NEEDS the power of Maya, 3DS Max, or another high-end and expensive program, I don't think Poser CAN compete (maybe the Poser team should not even try to compete directly). These high-end programs are in a constant state of development. As Poser or other low -end applications add new features, the higher-end apps add features also. It is a moving target.

What Poser can do is add compatability and data transportablility so that Poser can be part of the work flow for people who are going to use the latest and most expensive software packages.

*"Trying to get Poser to change in a direction some people wish is a lot like a tail trying to wag the dog."

I agree. This is a point I have made myself. Also, I don't mind knowing what other programs can do, in case I become rich, and have all the time in the world, but the constant Poser bashing by folks who don't have or use Poser, don't want it, and are never going to buy it, contributes very little to the Poser Forum community. I may moan and complain about Poser from time to time, but I own and use it, and I will probably buy the next version if and when it becomes available (when?).

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

take it from me, poser pro wont be much different from the poser you have right now. I've been swapping messages about poser pro for a while now. Poser pro with be a stop gap (bandaid) measure to get some revenue for the next big push for. Sure they plan to improve poser and perhaps even a radical shift. But I think poser pro is dead in the water as far as feature set goes. There are better things out there already that are considerably cheaper - just have less marketing clout and are supposedly more buggy - though I can make poser crash every time using the library system (and I have reported the bug). The ONLY thing poser has going for it (if you have a high end app already) above Daz studio is Python support - I just wish they had implemented it better.
Raj

I haven't read all this, and I'm sure it's been pointed out already, but....
Poser 7 is 250  US dollars. Poser "Pro" is going to be, what - $399?
I think that about sums up the argument regarding "is it worth it?"

But everybody always figures they should get more than they do...

On a slightly related note, do any of you have any idea how many threads I've read from people throwing fits regarding Blender's interface? Blender is completely free, BTW, and highly capable. Just weird.

IMO, the question of "how much would you pay for..." is a moot point. I'd be willing to pay as much as they wanted, provided it actually delivered, and I felt I needed the features. If they wanted 3 grand for it, I'd pay it, but it better do everything they say it will, short of serve me breakfast in bed for that kind of money.

Don't know about the rest of you, but I feel I got what I expected with Poser 7. You can fee free to interpret that however you like...

Quote - take it from me, poser pro wont be much different from the poser you have right now. I've been swapping messages about poser pro for a while now. Poser pro with be a stop gap (bandaid) measure to get some revenue for the next big push for. Sure they plan to improve poser and perhaps even a radical shift. But I think poser pro is dead in the water as far as feature set goes.

You seem to be claiming to be privy to some hot inside corporate information.  I'm always highly suspicious of such (unattributed / undocumented) forum-posted claims.  I'm not saying that it's not true -- just that I won't accept it as being true if & until I see such things for myself......or unless if we are offered solid, substantiated proof that SM is only interested in putting out a "bandaid" in an effort to haul in some quick cash.  Until the time when such solid, substantial PROOF of these claims is offered to us (and not just a "trust me"-- because I really know the inside scoop!") -- all such assertions in regards to SM's internal corporate planning & motivations amount to nothing more than mere forum rumor-mongering.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - You seem to be claiming to be privy to some hot inside corporate information.

Or maybe he looked at the published feature list.

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Quote - > Quote - You seem to be claiming to be privy to some hot inside corporate information.

Or maybe he looked at the published feature list.

He goes quite a bit beyond the particulars of the published feature list.  When anyone asserts that the "plan" is to put out a "bandaid" in order to garner some "quick cash"......that's not talking about feature lists.  It's making claims about internal corporate motivations.  And no one can know of such "facts" without having a line on the inside workings of SM.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Is it just me or does it seem kind of odd that Smith Micro would be buying Poser? Considering they seem to specialize in wireless communications technology and all.

I bet they unload Poser by the third quarter of 2010 at the latest. Just a feeling. They don't seem like Poser People.
Hell, they mentioned  the 30,000+ prefab models available from Content Paradise in their little promo, but failed to mention DAZ and the enormous success of the Mil People. Obviously they're in competition, and maybe they're not legally allowed to mention, say Vicki, but it doesn't seem to be smart advertising to use the CP stuff as your sole credentials. I'd venture to say if Poser suddenly couldn't import DAZ models, or went to a proprietary format (.pz8?, anyone?) , more than half the user base would disappear overnight, never to look back.

Why is E-frontier unloading Poser anyway? Why did this seemingly un-poserlike company give them six million for it?
Things might get interesting in the Poserverse again. 

from:
C G SM Poser technical Support:

"but this iteration of Poser Pro will stick pretty closely to the Poser 7 look and feel (flaws and all.) It's good to hear from people who are actually using Poser 'out in the field' though, so we'll know what areas to concentrate on!"

there is more to conversation but that remains private.
So Mr Xenophonz, next time you feel the need to blatantly accuse me of being a rumour monger or a liar just keep your trap shut.
Now you can choose not believe me: and I can choose not to listen to you.

I don't speak ill of SM, its just they got handed a bit of a lemon from EF and they are making the best of things. They knew that the bodystudio plugin (poser fusion) was very much a lemon product, and have abandoned that line of development (which shows how smart they are). I think poser is in better hands now, and I don't want to see it die. But SM have a tough battle ahead of them convincing people to buy.

And sure: if I could make my money back from the additional value of poser pro and it made my life easier - I would spend $20,$200,$2000,$20000. I managed to do it with both Poser and 3ds Max. Its still a hobby, but one that pays its way.
Raj

 

I'm still trying to learn Poser 7 and need to buy one of the vickis... I don't even want to think about paying anything extra for something that should have been done in the first place.

BTW, I've gotten poser to be a little more stable when I run msconfing, do a selective start up and uncheck the startup items, then click services and hide all the microsoft services before hitting the disable all button.  It works for me in the sense that at least I'm not crashing all the time trying to work with (and learn how to use) dynamic hair.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - dynamic hair.

there in lies the problem.
I've never gotten that to work...
starting with p4 and a japanese plugin till today.
I've worked with it, it just don't collide accuratley or grow properly. So it works as well as it should according to the manual - its just that the benchmark was set so low.
Raj

Yeah, I've found it to be a pain in the rear.  It took me roughly two days (12 hours or so) to do the hair style in my second render and at that point, I was at the point where saying I can live with this seemed reasonable.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

I'm ready for a professional level poser application.  I'd pay $499.00 easily.

Quote - from:
C G SM Poser technical Support:
"but this iteration of Poser Pro will stick pretty closely to the Poser 7 look and feel (flaws and all.) It's good to hear from people who are actually using Poser 'out in the field' though, so we'll know what areas to concentrate on!"

there is more to conversation but that remains private.
So Mr Xenophonz, next time you feel the need to blatantly accuse me of being a rumour monger or a liar just keep your trap shut.
Now you can choose not believe me: and I can choose not to listen to you.

Show me where I accused you of "being a liar", and I'll buy into what you are saying here.  I most definitely did not make such an accusation -- I asked for proof from you to back up your assertion that the intent was to throw something out there to grab some quick cash.  You still haven't established that as being a fact.  The quote that you've given sounds like a snippet from a standard customer support e-mail message.  It certainly doesn't speak to a corporate intent, devious or otherwise.  Frankly, I'd be surprised if Poser Pro did not stick fairly closely to P7's current interface (flaws and all).  As much as some people holler about it's drawbacks -- just wait for the hollering that would follow if the interface were to be radically changed into something unfamiliar to the user base overnight.

When you choose to offer actual, solid, proof that it's SM's corporate intent to essentially just slap something together & shove it out the door for the purpose of obtaining some quick cash, then I'll choose to listen to you.  Until then: it remains nothing more than a rumor.

Quote - I don't speak ill of SM, its just they got handed a bit of a lemon from EF and they are making the best of things. They knew that the bodystudio plugin (poser fusion) was very much a lemon product, and have abandoned that line of development (which shows how smart they are). I think poser is in better hands now, and I don't want to see it die. But SM have a tough battle ahead of them convincing people to buy.

As for the Body Studio issues -- that part we have no argument over.  If SM is as smart as you say that they are -- then we can expect to look forward to good things, eh?

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Since people will gripe either way, why not change the Poser interface in the interest of functionality? Answer: It would take time and money. The question of whether the "pros" will put up with a dated toy interface remains unanswered.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Perhaps a way to keep the price down would be to have a modular approach to any new version of Poser, like C4D does.
A base program, and modules for Hair, Face Room, etc.
Add on only what you need. A Material Room is essential IMO, but
I never use the Hair Room, or SetUp Room or Face Room, but love the Cloth Room.
Seem I'm paying for things I never use or want to.

I can imagine what the sales for the Poser Face module would be like. Why waste the cardboard for the product box?

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote - Since people will gripe either way, why not change the Poser interface in the interest of functionality? Answer: It would take time and money. The question of whether the "pros" will put up with a dated toy interface remains unanswered.

While I certainly agree that Poser's interface needs changing -- I believe that it's best if that change is evolutionary, rather than revolutionary.

It's not a good idea for a company to radically alter a product -- any product -- essentially overnight.  Doing so tends to upset the existing user base greatly, and without winning over new converts in the process.  Admittedly, this isn't always true -- but it is true often enough to be a risky gamble to try it.

Remember New Coke?

((OT - But I've heard from people who've been around long enough that Coke tasted better back in the 1950's -- although one man (an engineering professor of mine) was even-handed enough to say that he wasn't sure if the better taste back then might not have had more to do with his own younger tasting capabilities than it did with an actual change in the flavor of the soft drink.))

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

The "New Coke" wasn't a functional improvement. It was a new taste replacing the most popular soft drink in human history. Poser's interface is clunky to the point of madness when you delve into advanced features, such as rigging. One selling point for Poser Pro would be if the 64 bit version didn't have that annoying lag every time you attempt to turn a dial or move an element of the configuration.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

New Coke or Poser -- a company is running a big risk if they change their product too radically, too quickly.  The principle is all one for any type of product -- from shoes to automobiles.  Doing so might pay off (and occasionally does) -- but it's still a huge gamble.

With the inherent volatility of the Poser user base -- at least the user base that typically inhabits the forums -- IMO it would be very unwise to change the interface, top-to-bottom, in one version of the software.

Quote - Poser's interface is clunky to the point of madness when you delve into advanced features, such as rigging.

I agree with you there.  Unfortunately, I could say the same about a number of programs that I use.  Not all of them 3D programs.

But Poser makes certain advanced tasks much more difficult than those tasks have to be.  While other tasks aren't handled well, and rarely get used.  Such as the Face Room.

Quote - One selling point for Poser Pro would be if the 64 bit version didn't have that annoying lag every time you attempt to turn a dial or move an element of the configuration.

We agree.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I kind of like the face room after working with it for a while (since it is part of the program) and getting a better understanding of it's quirks. i practice making faces of any good image, getting a side view is tough somtimes, i can. They are not always mirror image of the photo but it makes a different character that many cannot pick out the base figure i used

You might as well PAY attention, because you can't afford FREE speech

2/20/08

XENOPHONZ:

New Coke was a marketing ploy. When the Coca-Cola company returned to "Classic Coke" they did not actually return to the old formula. The new "Classic Coke" used corn syrup instead of sugar, and tasted different. The public was distracted from noticing this by the amount of time they couldn't get a "Classic Coke" (until it was "reintroduced") and by the fact that they seemed to get what they demanded (instead of what they actually wanted). Cokes imported from Mexico (in glass bottles) still use sugar. Try one out sometime and taste the difference.

Incidentally, SM at CP has just put Passport Memeberships on sale a penny under $50 (USA), and Poser 6 on sale for under $3 (use with the passport). For under $53 (USA) one can get Poser 6, and upgrade to Poser 7 for a reduced amount. This is a little different, but not unlike the deals that EF gave just before announcing Poser 7. Could this be the kick-off for Poser Pro? DAZ has lately introduced new figures and new D|S versions at about the time that Poser brings out a new version.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Quote - 2/20/08

XENOPHONZ:

New Coke was a marketing ploy. When the Coca-Cola company returned to "Classic Coke" they did not actually return to the old formula. The new "Classic Coke" used corn syrup instead of sugar, and tasted different. The public was distracted from noticing this by the amount of time they couldn't get a "Classic Coke" (until it was "reintroduced") and by the fact that they seemed to get what they demanded (instead of what they actually wanted). Cokes imported from Mexico (in glass bottles) still use sugar. Try one out sometime and taste the difference.

I rarely drink carbonated drinks anymore, so it's unlikely that I'll be trying one out any time soon - from Mexico or elsewhere.  I used to live off of soft drinks back in my younger days.  Heh -- I'd jog for 10 miles and then wrap it up by drinking a Mountain Dew. 

As far as the history of the (old) New Coke goes -- I've heard similar stories put forth, with variations.  Right from the beginning, there were some who claimed that the entire "New Coke" fiasco was simply a marketing ploy in and of itself.  Some said that the real reason was merely to attract attention and thus increase sales of the "Classic Coke" product.  While others said that the real intent was to shore up falling market sales against Pepsi  --

But on the other side, there were also industry insiders who claimed that the higher-ups among the Coca-Cola execs were genuinely taken aback by the adverse reaction to the roll out of their "New Coke" -- which they thought would be a sure-fire winner.  I read business articles at the time which cited various Wall Street types and others in the industry who said that, no -- there weren't any ulterior motives behind New Coke.  The underlying factor was that the executives and marketing types at Coca-Cola stumbled -- and somewhat badly, too.

Frankly, I don't know who to believe with that one.  But I do know that the public overwhelmingly rejected New Coke -- regardless of what factors actually motivated the Coca-Cola company to change their core product that way.  My point was that the same potential danger would likewise obtain if the Poser interface were to be suddenly and drastically changed from its current form.  End users might taste the new sure-fire winner, and say "Bleaaaah!"

Quote - Incidentally, SM at CP has just put Passport Memeberships on sale a penny under $50 (USA), and Poser 6 on sale for under $3 (use with the passport). For under $53 (USA) one can get Poser 6, and upgrade to Poser 7 for a reduced amount. This is a little different, but not unlike the deals that EF gave just before announcing Poser 7. Could this be the kick-off for Poser Pro? DAZ has lately introduced new figures and new D|S versions at about the time that Poser brings out a new version.

LMK

Here we agree.  I've also been noticing subtle hints which seem to indicate that the roll out of Poser Pro isn't far off.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

2/20/08

XENOPHONZ:

When Coke made its big change, I was drinking diet drinks, when "Clasic Coke" came "back" I treated myself to a can and was horrified with the taste that others thought was so good. I asked a friend at the local bottler who showed me the ingrediant list printed on the bottles of the original Coke, and the "Clasic Coke" (which did not claim to be original). I didn't need Wall Street articles to see and taste the difference.

I agree, however, with the point about evolutionary change as opposed to revolutionary change. I think it must be quite difficult to manage the "change everything now" and the "change nothing but give me better" crowds with the same product. I can live with the same GI, but I would like better memory management, and a more stable program. I would love to see some new nodes so that BagginsBill can do new things to amaze me.

What else have you noticed from SM/CP?

LMK

 

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Quote - I agree, however, with the point about evolutionary change as opposed to revolutionary change. I think it must be quite difficult to manage the "change everything now" and the "change nothing but give me better" crowds with the same product. I can live with the same GI, but I would like better memory management, and a more stable program. I would love to see some new nodes so that BagginsBill can do new things to amaze me.

IMO, better memory management, a more stable program, and an improved render engine are the #1 priorities for Poser.  I'd like to see other things happen, too -- but those are at the top of my personal list.

Quote - What else have you noticed from SM/CP?

I've mentioned this in another thread -- but I've also noticed that it's been announced that the bundled software deals which feature P7 will be "ending soon".  I've also noted that SM has pretty much absorbed EF's website -- while announcing that they were doing so in a prior e-mail newsletter.  All subtle hints, IMO.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Oh, yeah -- as for the New Coke thing, that's not a dog that I have a fight in ;-) -- beyond using it as an example of the buying publics rejection of a radically changed product......regardless of which marketing motives were behind the change.

The Coke folks were either geniuses or fools -- perhaps both. 

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - Ok, since we really don't know what poser is going to do in the future let me put it this way. if these new features appear in Poser 8 then Poser Pro is not Poser 7 Pro, it is Poser 7.5 Pro.

If these features do not appear in Poser 8 (and currently there is no reason to belive they will) then this is a parallell development of Poser like Vue 6 Esprit vs Vue 6 Infinate.

That's what we know as of this particular moment in time.  But I wouldn't take that pdf chart as being carved in stone.  To do so is.......risky.

The released version of Poser Pro could end up being better......or worse......than what that chart says.

IM really curious
Why  do you have this belief that SM is
hiding some secret features from it user base and purposefully publishing
an incomplete/misleading feature list?
what do you believe they have to gain from such a ploy???

My website

YouTube Channel

good luck with that line of reasoning...

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Quote - IM really curious
Why  do you have this belief that SM is
hiding some secret features from it user base and purposefully publishing
an incomplete/misleading feature list?
what do you believe they have to gain from such a ploy???

Show me where I said that SM is "purposefully" publishing an incomplete/misleading feature list, and then I'll buy into what you are saying.  I never said that -- you did.

Unlike some others, I don't assign sinister motives to the corporate types if and until such a time as it's actually proven to me that they harbor such motives.  Frankly, that kind of forum talk generally stems from an eager willingness to buy into the worst possible assumptions -- assumptions -- about what a given company is doing.  There's a whole lotta pronouncements made in forum postings that comprise nothing other than just so much guessing or commentary-style interpretation of events -- but which are frequently presented as set-in-stone facts.  So I make no judgments whatsoever as to SM's feature list being "purposefully" wrong.......as in deliberately created by them in a dishonest way.

There are legitimate reasons for the features of a final release to differ in some ways from a published feature pre-list.  And especially so in this case.

1.  I do not know that SM was running the show at the time that the feature list was published.  SM might decide to make some changes, now that they are running the show.

2.  ANY company might find things that they feel need to be changed/deleted/corrected/whatever between a previous announcement and an actual software release.  This isn't "dishonesty" on a given company's part -- it's merely recognizing reality.

BTW - as I mentioned earlier, the final released version of Poser Pro could turn out to be either better or worse than what the feature list now shows.  I'll also add that the final release could turn out to be precisely as the feature list indicates.  But based upon prior experiences with software releases -- it'd be an interesting anomaly to watch if that is true.  Until the release happens: I won't be making any assumptions -- in any direction.

3.  I wish that people would get over the need to assign negative motives to companies and / or individuals with whom they disagree.  It's just possible that they are what they appear to be.  Perhaps some company does harbor bad motives for doing what they do -- but such companies usually don't last.  They usually get caught.

So, no -- I harbor no "belief" that SM is in any way, shape, or form being "dishonest" or "misleading".  I am merely standing on prior experience and a solid recognition of reality.

Next charge, please.............

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Human beings base every aspect of reason on assumptions.  If as you say, you refuse to make any assumptions (itself an assumtion!), you cannot reason (duh).

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Quote - Human beings base every aspect of reason on assumptions.  If as you say, you refuse to make any assumptions (itself an assumtion!), you cannot reason (duh).

Let me think about that one for awhile -- I'll need to consider the implications of the idea that assumptions are the basis of reason.

And how refusing to make assumptions comprises an assumption.........?  I am going to have to assume that these are deep waters......very deep.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

some info that may help you consider (if you assume that the linked info is accurate; if you assume you need outside info; if you assume you will not become distracted halfway through considering and begin to consider some other thing; or any number of assumptions that you may refuse to take on):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reasoning

oops, ps:

Quote - And how refusing to make assumptions comprises an assumption.........? 

How can you predict that you will refuse to make assumptions?  It is possible that you will make one or many assumptions, you can't assume that you will refuse - unless you do assume such, then everything's okay.

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:lol:

I assume that the assumptions that I made back when I assumed them, will be accurately reflected in my future assumptions concerning the matter at hand: whenever I make such an assumption.  Assuming, of course, that our assumptions are worth assuming.

My own assumption is that we are getting just a little bit off of the track here. 

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote -
Next charge, please.............

Xenophonz, you don't ever have any spelling errors or typos. You need to loosen up some. ;-)

Quote - > Quote -

Next charge, please.............

Xenophonz, you don't ever have any spelling errors or typos. You need to loosen up some. ;-)

What!  I have tons of embarrassing spelling errors and typos.........and after fifteen minutes, I can't edit them out.  G-r-r-r-r-r-r-r.........! 

One assumption that you can't go wrong with: we are all as perfect as any other human being ever born.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I was just thinking, how much of Poser's current woes is do in part to the fact it's always being bought out, but never by anyone major so it never has a chance to have a stable management?

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Quote - I was just thinking, how much of Poser's current woes is do in part to the fact it's always being bought out, but never by anyone major so it never has a chance to have a stable management?

That's probably a good point.
But, it wouldn't necessarily be a good idea either. Autodesk recently bought Mudbox and is intending on integrating it into either Maya or 3dsmax, or both, as a module in the program.
I think there will still be a standalone version available, but if they didn't want to do that, they wouldn't have to.
Can you imagine the outcry here if Autodesk were to buy Poser and simply absorb it into max? And if people had to buy max for $3,500 to be able to get at Poser?
Could do wonders for D|S "sales" though. ;-)

Some Posts ago someone mentioned Autodesk as the maker of Maya and 3DStudio. Well, you can better change that in "buyer". I don't think there's much  of a change that Autodesk will buy Poser, because I think they are only interested in "Big Fish", allthough Mudbox  makes me wonder. Mudbox was a very new application, I think  only a year old, when it was bought by autodesk. Poser is on the market for  more then 10 years now, if autodesk ever wanted it , they bought it already, considering the many times it changed owner, so I don't see any reason why they will buy it now.

Bopper.

-How can you improve things when you don't make mistakes?

I think you are right, if Autodesk wanted Poser, they would have bought it some time ago. They could have outbid any of the previous buyers when it was for sale. Or maybe they just felt it wasn't a good investment. Obviously, for whatever reasons, they are not interested in it.

Incidentally, Autodesk is the 'buyer' of Studio Maya.
They are the sole developer of 3ds max for 18 years, since version 2 (that's the 2nd DOS release; not 'R2', which is actually the 6th 3ds Max release). They were just the publisher of the first release.
I used AutoCAD 1.4 (mid 1980s) and that was Autodesk product back then. I think AutoCAD has always been an AutoDesk product, since it's beginning.

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

I did not say that Autodesk was going to buy Poser.

I very seriously doubt they would do that. They already have Biped, which is far more powerful and versatile than anything Poser has.

It was simply a hypothetical example to show that it's not necessarily a bad thing that Poser remains in the hands of small-time companies - an answer to the post from Wintercalw, i.e.,"I was just thinking, how much of Poser's current woes is do in part to the fact it's always being bought out, but never by anyone major so it never has a chance to have a stable management?"

I still think it seems like a strange career move for Smith-Micro though.

*"to take full advantage of its features will require the end user to have a 64 bit system equipped with sufficient RAM + other, more expensive, high-end applications installed. "
Yes that's the minimun Poser 8 or Pro have to be.
Right now I'm rendering in Poser 7 (32bits :( ) a scee quite big the pz3 ile has around 100MB in a powerfull QuadCore engine using 8GB ram and Poser takes advantage of only 29% of the processors while it takes 3.70Gb of RAM this is what 32bits can understand ..even so..it's taking about 30 min. to finished the full final render (size of the picture is 987X 667 pixels)
Look that's a Quad with SLI GTS 8800 of 512MB each one...but the P..does not care for it..while rendering in VUE 6 Infinite a scene smaller than that (800X600) takes 3 min. Vue uses 100% the Quad processors and about HALF GB of RAM!!! A 64 bits application I must say. So Poser could ONLY BE BETTER if they make it a 64 bits application with that all the bugs will disapear...I bet.
I'll not spend a cent more than today's price for a 64 bits Poser. Since WILL be for sure something we'll get mad about..it's like that since Poser 2 I guess!

"'you shut up!  or I'll bring democracy to your country! "
Cris Galvão aka Softcris  - www.crisgalvao.com
(or softcris, SoftCris)
Rendering since 1997 and
at Renderosity since 1999.
OS Win 8.1     64 bit

Quote - Right now I'm rendering in Poser 7 ... in a powerfull QuadCore... and Poser takes advantage of only 29% of the processors...it's taking about 30 min. to finished the full final render

Do you have your Render processes set us use multiple threads? (general preferences: render tab)  That is supposed to spread the load out to the other processors.

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

Quote - > Quote -

Show me where I said that SM is "purposefully" publishing an incomplete/misleading feature list, and then I'll buy into what you are saying.  I never said that -- you did.

Next charge, please.............

Self referencing paradoxical  exercises aside
I had Noticed a trend in these "poser pro" threads
where someone reads the OFFICIAL feature list
published by SM and offers a subjective,sometimes emotional, opinion about
weather its a worthwhile expense for them personally
based on what has been reported by SM on their website.
And then you unfailingly say***"shrug*** " and admonish this is a "Risky" endeavour or premature judgement because what they just read on SM's official web site May be "incomplete" at best.

So I shall ill be blunt about it:
I,as a person who has used poser since fractal design poser2
and a person who has investigated nearly EVERY method for getting poser
content into other programs over the years( bryce, LW 7.5,carrara pro4. Shade7, even 3DS Max4 at one brief point and finally settleing on Maxon Cinema4D+IPP and Vue easel)
as a person who $$Bought$$ the old  poser4 propack"hosting"
plugin that was promptly adandoned by CL and recycled as the PEE CEE only "riess" studio plugins. and re-branded yet again as the new"poser fusion' plugins all of which (except IPP)
only "HOSTS" for rendering only and ignores your host  apps native collision dynamics,cloth,and hair systems.

So My I ask you ,Just this once, for some "Wild unfounded speculation"
on your part  as to what amazing new unnanounced features you Suspect SM might still be hiding and planning to "sneak in" in addition to the Published specs
that would prove the cynical "Baahh not impressed for $399" crowd to have
engaged is a "risky" prejudgment??? .

humor me ;-)
 

My website

YouTube Channel

Quote - > Quote - Right now I'm rendering in Poser 7 ... in a powerfull QuadCore... and Poser takes advantage of only 29% of the processors...it's taking about 30 min. to finished the full final render

Do you have your Render processes set us use multiple threads? (general preferences: render tab)  That is supposed to spread the load out to the other processors.

Poser 7 only divides the work of rendering once, at the start of the render; so if your scene has a bunch of complicated stuff in the top right corner (e.g.) then it will behave like this.  Three cores will drop to idle and 3/4 of your uber quad core processor will sit there and do nothing, while the remainder gimps along on one core until it finishes (which might be hours).  I talked to EF about this shortly after Poser 7 was released and they acknowledged it, and told me no change is planned there until "the next version of Poser", but I expect that will not include the upcoming "Pro" version - certainly it isn't enough to get me to buy it, even if it does make it in.

edit: and comparing to other renderers out there, none of the "big dogs" has such a stupid implementation of multiprocessing; if you are rendering in 4 threads/4 cores, and one finishes earlier, the work is re-divided immediately to keep all 4 cores busy, as much as is practical.

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Quote - Poser 7 only divides the work of rendering once, at the start of the render; so if your scene has a bunch of complicated stuff in the top right corner (e.g.) then it will behave like this.  Three cores will drop to idle and 3/4 of your uber quad core processor will sit there and do nothing, while the remainder gimps along on one core until it finishes (which might be hours).  I talked to EF about this shortly after Poser 7 was released and they acknowledged it, and told me no change is planned there until "the next version of Poser", but I expect that will not include the upcoming "Pro" version - certainly it isn't enough to get me to buy it, even if it does make it in.

edit: and comparing to other renderers out there, none of the "big dogs" has such a stupid implementation of multiprocessing; if you are rendering in 4 threads/4 cores, and one finishes earlier, the work is re-divided immediately to keep all 4 cores busy, as much as is practical.

well, i appreciate their incramental progress Poser is making, even if it isn't "fast enough" for some. I also understand they are not keeping up with the "big dogs" who have had a much more stable ownership.

I also note that the fact that Poser can divide the threads at all and the upcomming pro being able to network render, are clear signs that they have been rewriting the code necessary to get Poser where you want it to be.

My Homepage - Free stuff and Galleries

Quote - Self referencing paradoxical  exercises aside
I had Noticed a trend in these "poser pro" threads
where someone reads the OFFICIAL feature list
published by SM and offers a subjective,sometimes emotional, opinion about
weather its a worthwhile expense for them personally
based on what has been reported by SM on their website.
And then you unfailingly say***"shrug*** " and admonish this is a "Risky" endeavour or premature judgement because what they just read on SM's official web site May be "incomplete" at best.

shrug 

I refer back to my earlier post which was in answer to your original challenge -- but I'll add to it that such "judgments" generally are premature.  Especially when the judgments are wrapped up in emotion and personal biases.

You appear to be misreading & obsessing on my use of the word "risky" earlier on in this thread (please see point on this below).  It's been my observation that new software releases nearly always offer surprises.  Sometimes good surprises, sometimes bad surprises.  I personally hold out hope that the latest round of surprises will be good ones -- but we'll see.

As I've already indicated -- it's perfectly legitimate for people to say that this package doesn't hold any interest for them -- for whatever their personal reasons might be.  Cost too high, posted features not sufficient (or lousy): or they just don't happen to like SM's website color scheme.  Whatever their reasons are -- it doesn't matter.

The problem comes in when the "emotional, subjective" part gets in the way of the "reasoned, logically-thought-out" part.  And that's when people start saying things like: "SM is going to milk this program for everything that they can, and then trash it"; or similar motivational assumptions / accusations against a corporation of which we actually know little -- because they haven't held Poser long enough for us to know them well yet.

Quote - So I shall ill be blunt about it:

Please do.

Quote - I,as a person who has used poser since fractal design poser2
and a person who has investigated nearly EVERY method for getting poser
content into other programs over the years( bryce, LW 7.5,carrara pro4. Shade7, even 3DS Max4 at one brief point and finally settleing on Maxon Cinema4D+IPP and Vue easel)
as a person who $$Bought$$ the old  poser4 propack"hosting"
plugin that was promptly adandoned by CL and recycled as the PEE CEE only "riess" studio plugins. and re-branded yet again as the new"poser fusion' plugins all of which (except IPP)
only "HOSTS" for rendering only and ignores your host  apps native collision dynamics,cloth,and hair systems.

I don't have any problems with what you've said here.  Here it just sounds to me like you've thought it over, and that you've reached a decision on what's best for your own needs / wants concerning this software.  I won't be critical of that.  That's yours to do -- and I wish you well.

But on the other hand, if you'd insisted that SM was planning on trashing Poser because they:

A.  Are greed-heads.
B.  Have personal contempt for their customers.
C.  Are a bunch of corporate sharks out to rule the Poser world & destroy it at the same time.
D.  Are motivated by other (fill in the blank:________) evil / amoral /  Machiavellian motives.

Then I'd have a problem with what you were saying.  But you haven't said that here --

BTW - there's also this: people sometimes assume (that word again!) that a given posting is directed at them, personally -- when it isn't.  Perhaps it's possible to hold an opposing point of view without personal animus being at the root of the disagreement.

Quote - So My I ask you ,Just this once, for some "Wild unfounded speculation"
on your part  as to what amazing new unnanounced features you Suspect SM might still be hiding and planning to "sneak in" in addition to the Published specs
that would prove the cynical "Baahh not impressed for $399" crowd to have
engaged is a "risky" prejudgment??? .

To put the matter politely: I fear that you've missed my earlier points entirely.

The problem with this question is that it's based upon several faulty premises -- one premise being the underlying assumption that I am condemning people over their private interpretation of a pre-listed feature set.  When what i actually said was that to rely upon a pre-published feature list for a new software as being set in stone is risky -- which it most definitely is. 

For the reasons as to why that's risky: please re-read my earlier posts.  I have no desire to go back over territory that we've already covered in some detail.

But I will mention that you appear to be seeing only 1/2 to 1/3 of what I've said -- I clearly stated that the final results of any potential ((as in: not 100% certain that it'll happen that way)) last-minute changes above and beyond the current feature list -- changes which SM might or might not make -- could work out to be either for the better -- or for the worse.  I even stated that the final version of Poser Pro could also (surprise, surprise!) -- match the currently published feature list exactly.  However, the thrust of your question implies that I said that all potential changes to the software would be only positive changes.....which I clearly did not say.  Read my posts.

My point in regards to this all along has been that we won't know which of the three possibilities will come to pass until the event happens -- i.e. until after the software is actually released.

Quote - humor me ;-)

Oh.......I see quite a lot of humor here.  But it's all in good fun. 

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - When what actually I said was that to rely upon a pre-published feature list for a new software as being set in stone is risky -- which it most definitely is. 

That's frankly nonsense.  It is extremely, extremely unlikely they're going to "slip in" Global Illumination or some other very desirable feature and not advertise it beforehand.  I mean, unless you're saying SM/EF are a bunch of morons?  They Would Be Very Very Stupid To Not Mention Such A Feature Well In Advance Of The Release For Sale.  It's complicated enough of a programming task that it would take a very significant investment of man hours, and thus it would need to be planned, it's not something a guy accidentally figures out on his lunch break.  It's also a highly valued feature in a renderer, and they would be nuts and/or highly stupid not to advertise it.* *** Ergo, it is not planned.  Where the list of advertised features might be inaccurate is in things that are not included at release time.

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I'm so glad I'm not software developer!
No matter what they do, there are always enough unsatisfied people to bitch.
It's a can't win scenario. Hope the guys are getting paid a lot of money. 

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

Quote - That's frankly nonsense.  It is extremely, extremely unlikely they're going to "slip in" Global Illumination or some other very desirable feature and not advertise it beforehand.  I mean, unless you're saying SM/EF are a bunch of morons?  They Would Be Very Very Stupid To Not Mention Such A Feature Well In Advance Of The Release For Sale.  It's complicated enough of a programming task that it would take a very significant investment of man hours, and thus it would need to be planned, it's not something a guy accidentally figures out on his lunch break.  It's also a highly valued feature in a renderer, and they would be nuts and/or highly stupid not to advertise it.* *** Ergo, it is not planned.  Where the list of advertised features might be inaccurate is in things that are not included at release time.

Uh......who said anything about "slipping in" GI?  I certainly didn't.  Please see my final few paragraphs in the post above.  Perhaps communication is possible -- or at least there's always hope.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Quote - I'm so glad I'm not software developer!
No matter what they do, there are always enough unsatisfied people to bitch.
It's a can't win scenario. Hope the guys are getting paid a lot of money. 

Me, too.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

So we agree that it is very, very unlikely that highly valued features that are not on the published feature list will be included then?  Thanks, I thought so.

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Quote - So we agree that it is very, very unlikely that highly valued features that are not on the published feature list will be included then?  Thanks, I thought so.

snort :lol:

What I recommend is that you write them a very nasty letter.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

What for?

My Freebies

Merely on general principles. 

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I ask again, what for?  Are you just following up with random non sequiturs to get the last word or something?

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Quote - I ask again, what for?  Are you just following up with random non sequiturs to get the last word or something?

:lol: :lol:  :lol:  :lol: :lol:

Now that's funny!  Thanks!  :biggrin:

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I guess you are. 

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I know you are, but what am I?  :lol: (again)

Quote - So we agree that it is very, very unlikely that highly valued features that are not on the published feature list will be included then?  Thanks, I thought so."

Quote - I ask again, what for?  Are you just following up with random non sequiturs to get the last word or something?

To clarify for the sake of the literally-minded: you've asked the questions, and you've answered them yourself -- and while it's true that this process involves talking to yourself.......fortunately, it also obviates any need for me to join in the discussion in a serious way.  I fear that I'd be impolitely interrupting the conversation.

There comes a point at which a "discussion" can degrade and become pointless.  Usually because the central point has been missed entirely -- or ignored entirely.  IMO, this line arrived there some time ago.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

So, is there a more verbose and snotty way to say "I don't have any response that pertains to this thread"? 

My Freebies

Man I havnt seen these comments before!
And I havnt tryed a 3d app that wasnt bugged and I'm talking all the way from the freeware to the top comercial ones.
The question is something I've often thought of, but isnt going to happen in my lifetime.
ALL 3d apps fail just when you despretly want them not to, in short be prepared to be disapointed folks.
On the up side its cheap enough now for the home user to at least give it a try and hope to be lucky, some are.
BUT back to the origional question, if such a app did exist I'd buy it no matter the co$t, but sadly it doesnt.

It sounds like to me Poser Pro is geared towards the studio. I'm not going to condemn it after arrives and suppose it does stink. I don't care anymore. I'm through with Poser. I bought Poser 7 and I"m not satisfied with it's performance. They sell the company too much. There are other alternatives now and also being developed. I have at least three or four ways to use "poser" content right now. I don't think I'm going to be willing to pay anything at all. Just save my money and buy content when I feel like it. However I will be looking forward to reading all the posts in the forums when it finally arrives just to see if people really like it or not and how useful it is. Quietly because I left the game. Now, I've got to go learn how to use some of the other options available right now and see what kind of potential they have. Later,

Industry standard rigging for better joints.  Poser's joint handling drives me nutso.  I would pay for better joints.  I'm not sure what else I'd be willing to pay for.  A less crash-prone clothroom and hair simulations that work properly, perhaps.  And hair design tools that use dials so you don't have to fight with the interface.  And Python access to the mouse interaction in the 3D preview.  And a morph tool that's less like Amorphium and more like the Wings Tweak tool.  And some kind of built-in .cr2 editor, since so many Poser features require manual tweaks of the files.  Oh, heck.  I want Poser to stop being Poser, don't I?  Hmm.

But anyway, better joints.  That's the big thing.

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Cage can be an opinionated jerk who posts without thinking.  He apologizes for this.  He's honestly not trying to be a turkeyhead.

Cage had some freebies, compatible with Poser 11 and below.  His Python scripts were saved at archive.org, along with the rest of the Morphography site, where they were hosted.

Yep -- we'll see what Poser Pro will do when it does it.  Until then -- we're sort of confined to.......uh......educated.......guessing.

Quote - ALL 3d apps fail just when you despretly want them not to, in short be prepared to be disapointed folks.

Well.....while I understand what you are saying, I haven't found that to be the case with Modo.  Modo does what it says it will do.......one of the few cases where the hype seems to match the reality.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Modo does what it says it will do.......one of the few cases where the hype seems to match the reality. Just be sure to save before using the Element Move tool on a UV map.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote - Just be sure to save before using the Element Move tool on a UV map.

Heh -- there's always a fly in the ointment, eh? 

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I would like to have better joints, and I really would like to feed Firefly high order surfaces, NURBS as well as Subdivision Surfaces. GI/Radiosity would be great too.

Poser 7 is not a bad application. I did not ran in a lot of bugs, most features work as designed. But then, I usually don't render scenes close to the memory limit. It's surely nice to have a 64-bit version, especially for big scenes, but I don't see me buying this - because I rarely do big scenes.

Firefly is the render engine I am most familiar with. It has it quirks, some more annoying than others, but it's not THAT slow, the pictures are not THAT bad. IBL isn't radiosity, but it works for me in many, many cases - and it's much faster to render too.

Let's not forget that more advanced features tend to be complicated, and that's not always something the typical Poser user want. We still don't see that much dynamic cloth here, same with strand based hair. If it weren't for BagginsBill, Olivier, face_off and some others, the material room would still be wasted on us - but we can use it, tweak it, works with it. New features would still need other peoples who unlock these features for us.

Would I pay a lot for a new poser? Maybe, if I can use it. But it still needs to be an application made for normal people. They don't should try to catch Maya, at least not before they can make the powerfull features work for people like us. So, no, I don't want a professional Poser. Real Pros will not come down from Maya, Max, XSI and the other full feature products. Firefly cannot really compete with Renderman and Mental Ray. - not in render speed, not in quality - but not in complexity either.

A ship in port is safe; but that is not what ships are built for.
Sail out to sea and do new things.
-"Amazing Grace" Hopper

Avatar image of me done by Chidori. 

A Poser Pro , that is worth calling "Pro" should be like a polygon version of Animation Master.No need for modelling but mesh editing is a must.Of course not the AM crash attitudes but the animation features like rigging, subdivision surface(as a replacement for Hash patches),UV mapping and much more.Poser should finally get an adult interface , not that sucking "Kai Krause Meta Creation Baby-Toy" Interface . Carrara did it right here.C6 Interface is still Carrara.For a Poser Pro like that ,I am ready to pay up to 500 dollars for an Upgrade.The anounced PoserPro by SM seem to be  just  a fake.PoserPro is nothing more than Poser 7-1/2.

Quote - Yep -- we'll see what Poser Pro will do when it does it.  Until then -- we're sort of confined to.......uh......educated.......guessing.

Or we could just read the officially published
specs bluntly posted by the actual OWNERS of poser themselves and  trust that SM is Not lying ,even by omition,
(I personally believe that PDF is quite honest and what will be featured in the release poser pro is  ALL listed there).

But hey poser is .. what Poser ...is
im just thankfull I dont actually need yet another release since I only use its Structured runtime as a gateway to to send content to Cinema/Vue anyway.

cheers.

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