Just a tought on that...

Content paradise seem to be the only company offering base characters and i was really wondering why.

I am amazed that no one wants to tap into the base market and compete...

Daz seems to want to become it's whole one in all solution and move slowly away from poser which is a shame....

But besides that you have to wonder ..there is a ton of 3d artists out there basically starving but no one seems inclined to get on the bandwagon to create figures for poser....

If Daz decides to cut away completely from poser, i can see poser suffer an horrible death because most people use daz for their 3d assets.

Without discounting content paradise which offer good products, daz is the giant in this business and it is gonna end up like crap for the users because of that monopoly....

my 2 cents

Poser has more or less switched owners with every version. DAZ has had what, one change ? From Zygote to DAZ. Is it any wonder they have a better business plan ?

Some things are happening.

There's Apollo. Completely independent from DAZ, and generally regarded as the best male figure around.
There's Project Human. Poser figures as open source.
Sixus1 has human figures.
There's Plain Jane, under development.
Phantom3D here is working on human figures.

And when it comes to bending, Apollo, Plain Jane and the figure by Phantom3D are significantly better than the DAZ figures.

So if DAZ decides to leave Poser users out in the cold (unlikely, Poser users are a large source of DAZ income), there are other figures to work with.

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Jerr you sound like you have the right attitude to go start your own business! The major problem is convincing the buying customer base to try a different standard, and for many people that simply isn't going to happen, but there are always those who are willing to try something different in any new business.

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lol thanks pjz99 i guess i remember the days when kupo was running the Poser show and how he and that guy from DAZ used to hang out in this forum actually talking shop with us...

I think a lot of it comes from support. People make figures (and have for years) but there is no support for them and they sort of die.

The other thing most people tend to forget is, this is a highly specialized and relatively small market. Most people outside of here don't have the faintest clue what we do, how we do it or what we do it for. Even artists who don't use 3D are sometimes vague on the whole thing.

Bear in mind the closest Mr and Mrs Average get to doing anything even remotely artistic is making Christmas cards from those bloody awful kits on QVC.

Think about it, only a fraction of the populace have any artistic inclination and only a fraction of those are interested in 3D.

Taking all that into account, there ain't really much of a market to be competing for. DAZ had a very good start, springing fully formed from Zygote, in much the same way as Apollo (the original one) sprang from the brow of Zeus. Any company wanting to take them on would most likely have to either get some serious cash behind it first, or come into being as a hobbyist offshoot of a pro 3D outfit such as, erm, Zygote or Pixar.

Even then, why would anyone bother? Since we've all been squawking that Poser is old tech and we want new ways of rigging, detailing etc, who would risk heavy duty investment in competing for a market that seems about ready to change direction?

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If you're a wiz at making 3d content you're far better off (financially speaking) working for film, tv or game development. The Poserverse is a parsimonious place. It’s amazing that it has attracted the level of talent that it has.

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Quote - If you're a wiz at making 3d content you're far better off (financially speaking) working for film, tv or game development. The Poserverse is a parsimonious place. It’s amazing that it has attracted the level of talent that it has.

Pretty much this... Most people in the poserverse dont realize just how underpriced poser content is. I'm sure we'v all seen those threads where someone mocks a product on a site like TurboSquid or similar. Well guess what, those are standard industry prices (well except for the really crappy products) and are quite comparable to what a modeler or texturer makes in a proper studio. But the poser market isn't like this, here the merchants have to rely solely on volume sales to make up for selling their products at 1/10th of the actual value. The only people who can manage this are those who already have a fan base or have been doing this for years. Which means of course DAZ and a handful of others. The rest find it very hard to break into the market, take a huge risk with every new product and usally find way better outlets for their talents then poser content.

Of course this a great thing for us users, as we get to enjoy high quality products at very low prices. But it does lead to a small amount of variety in what you can get, limited mainly to the usual big boobie women, fantasy stuff 'inspired' from frazetta and vallejo and the occasional toon and/or fantasy creature.

Quote - If you're a wiz at making 3d content you're far better off (financially speaking) working for film, tv or game development.

YES SIR!!
I am a merchant here been so for five years now
But Right now i am self employed FULL TIME as a CG motion graphics artist
I just completed and animation logo lead-in for a film production company here is DC
and Im putting the final touches on the motion graphics for a two minute movie trailer for a funded independent film release. and I will likely, God Willing,
do the DVD authoring and Print ad Campaign as well.
I Love My "job"

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Dont forget the Koshini family over at RDNA :=

Merchant support... I have a runtime full of independent figures such as Rikishi and Satako but the only clothes or textures I have for them are the base sets and base textures and any mods for those I have done myself. I tend to buy any new realistic non-toon figure I can just to support the developer.

The problem is momentum. DAZ has the market presence and can loss lead and over price and do basically anything they want and still command market share. If a new innovation takes off they just assimilate.

The independent developers have to settle on volume sales at low prices like BATLAB to make money. I just am nostalgic for the time before the community got so commercial... imagine what kozoburo or Mr. Maya would have earned if they wanted to? Poser 7 realism is fun but I am not sure I am remotely as productive as I was in all the years I ran Poser 4 and had only one Poser purchase (Victoria 2 Reduced Resolution) in my runtime.

Quote - The problem is momentum. DAZ has the market presence and can loss lead and over price and do basically anything they want and still command market share. If a new innovation takes off they just assimilate.

In some cases new innovation is stifled because DAZ does not incorporate it.

example:
DAZ, from what I understand, as a policy does not sell items (clothing, hair, etc) that are not made for their figures. If a merchant makes an outfit for Apollo, they must find somewhere else to sell it.

DAZ does not, to the best of my knowledge, produce anything with Poser material collections (MC6 files).

DAZ (itself) has not prouduced any dynamic hair or clothing for use with Poser's dynamics.
DAZ has not prouduced figures with the external morph technolgy (pmd files) in Poser.

DAZ shows almost no intrest supporting or producing products for anything added to Poser since P4 and is even venturing into models that are D|S specific.

overall these things could be seen as good marketing and positioning, but there really isn't any opposition. so the way DAZ does it is how it is done... even if this is only a perception.

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Excluding materials collections is pretty poor business practice. People have become trained to expect MAT poses, and compared to materials collections that is a pretty bad idea - you are not warned when you try to load a MAT pose with invalid material zones, but you are when you load a bad materials collection in the Materails Room. Good way to introduce crap in your prop or figure and never be able to get it out again easily.

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Quote - > Quote - The problem is momentum. DAZ has the market presence and can loss lead and over price and do basically anything they want and still command market share. If a new innovation takes off they just assimilate.

In some cases new innovation is stifled because DAZ does not incorporate it.

example:
DAZ, from what I understand, as a policy does not sell items (clothing, hair, etc) that are not made for their figures. If a merchant makes an outfit for Apollo, they must find somewhere else to sell it.

They have just sold their first add-on to a clothing figure which is not sold at DAZ (but it is by an artist is brokered at DAZ). It may be that they will sell addons to non-DAZ figures via Artzone. They do have a few dynamic clothes products which have both a DAZ figure fit and a CP figure fit. (I have one for V4 and Sidney, and another for some DAZ figure and Miki).

Quote -
DAZ does not, to the best of my knowledge, produce anything with Poser material collections (MC6 files).
[quote]
About a third of their new clothing products (either base or texture) now come with Materials. I would say that a far higher percentage of DAZ products come with MC6 files than RDNA or RMP products.

Quote -
DAZ (itself) has not prouduced any dynamic hair or clothing for use with Poser's dynamics.
[quote]
Not true. If you look at their March Madness sale, several of the dresses come with both a dynamic and a conforming version. They still don't produce a lot of dynamic clothing, but they do have some. I would also say that the percentage of dynamic clothing available at the RMP is heavily skewed by one or two vendords, who produce a lot of dynamic clothing. You are correct about the dyanamic hair though.

Quote -
DAZ has not prouduced figures with the external morph technolgy (pmd files) in Poser.

DAZ shows almost no intrest supporting or producing products for anything added to Poser since P4 and is even venturing into models that are D|S specific.
[quote]
There are only a few DJS specific models. As a matter of fact, I can't think of more than a couple of lightsets. As to nothing past P4, you clearly haven't bought any of the V4 products. Almost all of the V4 character textures have shader trees, in some cases quite extensive ones. Most of the new hairs do as well.

I've conducted a spot check of Platinum Club products, and many of the new ones come with MC6s, and almost all have shader trees. (So it isn't just the brokered artists that are up-to-date.)

The situation at the Renderosity marketplace is not that much different from DAZ. Lots and lots of conforming clothes, most of them for V3 or V4. Almost no dynamic cloth. Hesitantly incorporating P6/P7 material collections. Dynamic hair - almost nothing (kirwyn being the notable exception).

If you want a marketplace that is more geared toward the current Poser technology, CP and RDNA are better choices. Far better support of the EF/CP figures too.

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Quote - Just a tought on that...

Content paradise seem to be the only company offering base characters and i was really wondering why.

I am amazed that no one wants to tap into the base market and compete...

I think there's plenty of people whom are trying, and finding it very hard (unprofitable) to compete with DAZ figures' popularity.
It would take a large initial marketing and operating investment to turn the tide and popularize non-daz figures more. One that may take few years before it shows some profit.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
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CP is off limits to me because any time I try to make a purchase they do something that shuts down my credit card accounts... their security measures some how activate the fraud detection on my cards no matter which one I use!

The reason people avoid dynamic clothes is that the dials are incomprehensible... why could they not have been made using the same scale as parameter dials... basically a -1.00 to +1.00 scale? Percentages I understand, arbitrary scales for parameters that have circular definitions in the manual I do not... unfortunately the only supplemental P7 guide I bought is just a natural language translation of the manual text :(

The real reason I dislike dynamics beyond the fact that my machine chokes on simulations and simulating several items at once is confusing, and that dynamic clothes don't permit real time preview in posing, is that the single layer mesh are high density but have except for one item I have encounter no mesh modeled seams or hems or detailing such as buttons. Trying to set decorative and other simulation features with grouping is a total bummer. I can't stand all the dynamic clothes that look like the edges are cut rather than hemmed.... Might as well download one freebie quicksuit and cut it how I want to myself.

I have only seen one artist who has figured out how to render dynamic hair so it doesn't look composited... it usually just doesn't match the mesh elements on a figure... I would chose hair painted on the texture map and a head morph over dynamic anytime... it looks better and I have a machine that can't manage dynamic hair anyway.

I have no idea what will happen when Daz doesn't support Poser any longer... I can't grasp the D/S interface myself. I guess it will be an opportunity for for a renewed Poser market.

The big thing I see in the market is that there used to be more support (esp. freebies) for people forced or choosing to work exclusively with the figures and clothing shipped with Poser. Even with Poser 5 there were still a lot of people who worked exclusively with the shipped content and freebies but it seems to me at least that people now have a much harder time working with Poser if they don't have money to purchase Daz and RMP or other store content.

The program and the community started as a kind of hobby DYI freebie-sharing scene and while it has not become a "professional" scene, it has become a very commercial "consumer hobbiest "community... the community used to have prominent members who had never made a single store purchase beyond the initial software package but I don't see that anymore.

I personally look at it this way:

Daz has a sizable library of resources to pull from with both in house creators and brokered artist, Smith-Micro (CP) has gone though so many owners in the last 8 years since I have been using Poser that the store is still around.
I don't rely on any one source for my content, I will buy from Daz, CP, Rosity, and even the other stores. Most of my content I have in my runtimes is free or self created (clothing and some props). As for Base figures, there are plenty of them to choose from, You have Apollo by Anton, Suzy Q from RNDA, Furrette, Anime Doll by Maya, Ball Joint Doll, Kururu. Some are free some aren't.

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The funny thing to me is that Apollo hasn't become the male standard given how people feel about M3. Is it simply that RMP and DAZ are the entry point for most end-users and they just can't make the jump to a FREE superior figure?

Then there is other curious stuff... when I have been flush from time to time I have offered to bank roll someone making a simple prop of "down around the knees or ankle jeans" and a "being pulled over the head T-shirt" with maybe also some decent quality clothes tossed on floor props to the toon of a couple hundred bucks since I suck at Cloth Room -- this would be what? Fifty? A hundred bucks an hour for the people who assure me it would be a few minutes simple work in the Cloth Room? I have said they could either send me morphs for standard P5 or 6 clothes or make a mesh to be freebied or merchandised however the maker wished -- not once has the offer been taken up. Why wouldn't anyone take the commission given the fact that there must be a huge market of "perves" wanting such a thing. I'm broke now but my renders are all "artist's models" who seem to have shown up for work after stashing their clothes in the broom closet or something... I would love to have them dressing and undressing and posing with clothes tossed on a chair nearby to emphasize they represent artist's models. All I can do now is drape a robe over a chair next to the possing platform.

Don't you think a lot of people would want a NVIATWASAHPAHA! Naked Vicky in a Temple With A Sword and Her Pants Around Her Ankles?

Anyway, I do wonder if people aside from me got more art done back in P3 when we had to paint all the hair and clothes in... I still work a fair bit with Millennium 3 content in PoserProPack... the only real hang up is the fact that I can't use subdirectories in my PPP libraries. Maybe I should see if the PX Poser eXplorer content loader script by Dimension3D works with PPP.

Any hypothetical new figures would also have to offer significant improvements / features over the current offerings in order to lure a portion of the Poser-buying base over to them. "Support this figure because DAZ didn't make it" is a lousy marketing strategy -- but it's a strategy that some fall into the trap of thinking is a good one. And so: they fail -- and they further compound it by also failing to learn or to admit to the realities of the Poser-related marketplace situation as found. The marketing ideas of some tend to be informed by their own ideologies about what the majority of Poser-content buyers should want, rather than admitting to harsh reality and bowing to the publics own tastes -- the marketplace-reality no-mercy dictatorship of what the buying public actually does want. The dictatorship of public taste skewers ideology every time that public taste is challenged on ideological grounds. People just won't buy stuff that they don't want........or that they don't even like in some cases.

Too many people have too much invested in the DAZ figures to be readily persuaded to look elsewhere. But if anybody can compete with them, CP (SM) can. Which might just work out to our (the Poser-buying publics) benefit as the two competitors seek to outdo each other. I don't have a problem with that.

Without solid corporate backing: a hypothetical lone 3rd-party figure creator will have a tough time of it. They might create a temporary splash, but it won't last. BTW - I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against 3rd-party figures -- I have a number of 3rd-party figures in my runtime. When it comes to available figures: the more the merrier, IMO. Just don't expect to displace Victoria from her position as Queen of the Figure Mountain. Or even to come close to doing so.......especially if the intended challenger is a male figure. If you do harbor such expectations: then you'll be sadly disappointed by the results every-single-time.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

BTW -- I'll add that as for thoughts about "more being done back in the day" -- the overall Poser-related marketplace is MUCH larger now than it was back in "the day".......which is a fact that carries its own particular set of realities along with it. It's not to everyone's liking: but it is what it is.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - Without solid corporate backing: a hypothetical lone 3rd-party figure creator will have a tough time of it. They might create a temporary splash, but it won't last. BTW - I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against 3rd-party figures -- I have a number of 3rd-party figures in my runtime. When it comes to available figures: the more the merrier, IMO. Just don't expect to displace Victoria from her position as Queen of the Figure Mountain. Or even to come close to doing so.......especially if the intended challenger is a male figure.

These semi-supportive attitudes crack me up.

anyway.. on another note.

okay, first, there is no reason to compete with Daz. Daz is it's own encapsulated entity, with it's own figures, market, customers, software etc.

There is a false assumption that people have to make a choice when using a figure. This creates competition, which often is less positive than people like to believe. Marketing cliches aside, in the Poser market, figure competition leads to the darker side of business practices.

I don't have an exact amount, but in the year Apollo was for sale, with his few Epic Clothing Packs, I took between $60-$70,000 at both RDNA and then CP. I think the larger half was at RDNA, because he was there longer. Figures do well when people like them. Period, regardless of if it is at Daz, CP, RDNA, etc.

New companies don't enter Poserdom because, frankly, they are not interested in nickle and dime-ing their way to profit. I say this all the time, and noone ever listens, but the amount of people for buy content on a regular monthly basis is under 7,000; though there are more, that is the constant. People say no, but they have never seen anything any hard data. I have. Over years.

Average brokerages this size float around $65,000 to $110,000 a month. So these average monthly customers spend around $50 for their monthly purchases. Are there those who brag they spend more? Yes. Are stores glad they do? Yes. But they could all likely attend the same cocktail party. Most people are trading products for promotion, using warez, rendering for free copies, beta testing for free copies, etc, etc etc. And largely forgotten, so many people make content now, they just make their own; utilities aside.

I agree with Ghost of MacBeth. Merchants do not generally support 3rd party figures; even ones they like. Daz is a hot brand in our community, like Pepsi, or a designer jean. And like kids to with fashion, people gravitate to what is perceived as hot or popular. This can include "3rd party" figure makes, though I would like to remind people that Daz is a "3rd -party" figure maker being they use the Poser file format. But labels aside....

Merchants/companies have to remember that they each have their own ladder to success. Toppling your competition doesn't mean you are good at what you do or a promise of success. But nor does being popular mean you do the best work or will make profit.

Reality is... Prices have dropped for valid reasons. Lack of sales. Despite what people like to believe, a thriving market does not lower it's prices more and more year after year after year.

Poser and Studio file formats going in separate directions is a good thing. Each company isn't particularly fond or interested in the other. Their merchants aren't particularly warm either. And the simple truth is, division is inevitable.

If one or both die off, well, I hate to say it but that would be great. If competition is the only thing making these companies thrive, and yet they are still not getting it right, enough all ready. Let something new evolve from the examples given.

The reality is a profitable anything will survive. Non-profitable commercial ventures will not. But this concept that somehow Poser and Studio are on the same ladder to success is false. Each has their own path.

But, and this is most important....... Neither company really even makes it's own content anymore. And yet now, merchants are tossed pennies to buy ready product that took weeks to make. Sad sad sad. The market has become a sweatshop for some, partly because they refuse to leave and party because they are haggled down to below minimum-wage rates.

Another larger issue, for merchants at least, is that many of the smaller store are run by people who, dare I say, might be described as insane. Store are regularly deleted without notice, inner strife, produce or be punished tactics, endless sign-ff threads, inappropriate agreements and restrictions, etc. Though I don't personally see how the behaviour of the larger brokerages differs from the smaller ones, people this at least they will make more money there, which is what it is all really about.

I am fortunate that I didn't need Poser brokering to survive, but many people use their brokering income to supplement income. I don't mean this as a disrespectful, but come on, many of us know that the current customer base profile has largely become people on disability, retirement, and other fixed incomes.

And finally to the point. I am sorry. lol. I never get this chatty.

If there was a point to competing with Daz, or Poser, someone would have by now. They, like many merchants, find it easier to stick with what is familiar. Sort of like when someone doesn't want to get out of the tub when the water get cold.

Cheers,
Anton, a hypothetical lone 3rd-party figure creator of a male figure. lol

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

That was one hell of an interesting read Anton.
Can I ask on a personal level what the future holds for you in the 3D content world? I understand your workings with Apollo 2008 but do you have any plans after that?

Hey there,

3D is really a hobby now. I think I had the most success in Poserdom someone can have. And for that I am very grateful and it was a fun ride.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - especially if the intended challenger is a male figure. If you do harbor such expectations: then you'll be sadly disappointed by the results every-single-time.

Just curious, does anyone know what percentage of sales M3 took compared to V3? If Daz made a spectacular M4 would he still not sell well, I guess what I'm asking is what's the main reason why male figures don't sell well? Surely it can''t be as simple as most people like doing pinups with the Vickies!

Quote - And finally to the point. I am sorry. lol. I never get this chatty.

It's the tequila.

Comitted to excellence through art.

I hope Daz does move away Poser.

I hate their high priced over bloated figures.

Quote - I guess what I'm asking is what's the main reason why male figures don't sell well? Surely it can''t be as simple as most people like doing pinups with the Vickies!

Why not? Our market is almost soley about fantasy. And let's admit, mostly erotic fantasy; both passive and blatant.

-Stright men render the women they want.... well you know the type.
-Stright women render the women they want to be.... princesses, soft/petite, enticing , youthful, thin.

with exceptions, of course.

Male figures compete mostly within the gay male Poser community, which is massive, but still a smaller part. Other than that, male figures are used mostly used for story telling purposes. I think males are more popular in the comic genre.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - These semi-supportive attitudes crack me up.

Eh? "Supportive" -- in any specific direction -- wasn't the intent. The intent was to point out a few realities.

Some items sell.......others sell........while still others SELL.

Also......the overall market gets bigger & more successful = the prices generally go down. That's what Wal Mart does. And Wal Mart is a MUCH larger company (and makes a lot more money) than Macy's does. Wal Mart defines "success" as a business: which is a part of the reason why some people hate it so much -- it doesn't adhere to the correct ideology.

BTW - in spite of what some people think -- prices going up-up-up is generally a symptom of an unhealthy economy. Not of a healthy one.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - male figures are used mostly used for story telling purposes. I think males are more popular in the comic genre.

That's what I use them for.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

When I first got into 3D a couple of years ago I just presumed the male figures would sell well with the female users & those doing sci-fi etc.
I guess I'm a typical male who primarily renders women, I just didn't think the gulf would be so big.

Quote - Also......the overall market gets bigger & more successful = the prices generally go down. That's what Wal Mart does. And Wal Mart is a MUCH larger company (and makes a lot more money) than Macy's does. Wal Mart defines "success" as a business: which is a part of the reason why some people hate it so much -- it doesn't adhere to the correct ideology.

BTW - in spite of what some people think -- prices going up-up-up is generally a symptom of an unhealthy economy. Not of a healthy one.

I am sorry. You are wrong; at least in this market. I understand though. I see how what you are saying seems to makes sense and should be true. But it isn't . So many people want this to be true in our market. But it isn't. It just adds to the problem.

-If CP was booming, ef wouldn't have sold it.
-If Poser Pros was successful, it wouldn't have been closed.
-If Rendo didn't have a propblem with items not selling one piece over months, there would be no warehouse.
-If the market was really growing, we wouldn't all be staring at all our own same faces in the forums everyday.
-If Daz items were so lucrative, they would go pack to paying thousands for "Daz Originals" oppose to a couple hundred.
-If The market was diverse, Renderosity and Daz wouldn't have the exact same charts on Alexa.(across years)
etc
etc.

The current problem is denial vs. what is real. One is encourage. The other concealed.

You talk about reality, accepting it, and having realistic expectations. Many do. I just don't see people taking their own advice.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

*Quote: If Daz made a spectacular M4 would he still not sell well,

Judging by what one regularly sees in the Poser gallery I would say it would be unlikely. Somehow the notion that only female-centric images are worth viewing took hold in the gallery a long while ago and nothing has changed much in that regards.

It's a pity though. As a vendor I would have liked to make more products for male characters and especially for a new (M4) male character but to do so is always at a loss.

I guess men have only themselves to blame for failing to be a fit subject for 'art' :)

Rick

Quote - -If CP was booming, ef wouldn;t have sold it.

Why not? Successful companies often get sold. It's called profit-taking.

Quote - -If Poser Pros was successful, it wouldn't have been closed.

I won't argue that one with you.

Quote - -If Rendo didn't have a propblem with not one pices selling over monthy, there would be no warehouse.

Clearing out old / non-selling stock is something that businesses -- successful businesses -- do on a regular basis.

Quote - -If the market was really growing, we wouldn't all be staring at all our own same faces in the forums everyday.

Whatever happens in the forums is only incidental to what actually sells in the MP. Many of the "loudest" items in the forums are actually small potatoes in the overall MP. That's not always true -- but it often is.

Quote - -If Daz items were so lucrative, they would go pack to paying thousands for "Daz Originals" oppose to a couple hundred.

That one I can't address directly, not having any personal access to DAZ's books -- but I will point out that DAZ seems to be in a buying mood recently. At least when it comes to software.

Quote - You talk about reality, accepting it, and having realistic expectations. Many do. I just don't see people taking their own advice.

True, true.

BTW - I'd say that when it comes to prices & their relationship to the overall health of a given market........as in so many other things: balance & stability is the key. In an open market, things tend to find their own natural level.

Those on disability can only afford to pay just so much. If that's your target demographic -- then you have to tailor your price structure accordingly. Otherwise, you'll need to find a new demographic.

We get all sorts in here. Not just one flavor, or one economic strata. Many are even institutions, organizations and companies -- not just individual users. So we have items that fit one type of budget, and items which fit another. It's all good, IMO. But that's just my opinion. :biggrin:

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I think it's a weird market all the way around. Frankly at times it pisses me off too. Why? Well, I spend a pile of money for some content and add-ons for it let's say a figure and later the same thing is half price or free a few months later. Now that encourages the heck out me to spend money. Same with the software. I buy it right out of the gate and upgrade and less than a year later they're running specials or giving it away with the purchase of something else. The only advantage I get is getting to play with it sooner than those who waited, but they get it for next to nothing compaired to what I payed for it. Then there is Poser 7 that needed updates or something dang it, but EF sold out and right before the release of a new version. Seriously, this market is killing itself. byAnton why do you give Apollo away for free? If it's all about making money?

You've probably answered that before, but I never heard it.

dogor,

That was interesting, Anton. :) I am always glad to hear what you have to say.

I am a perennial end-user but between being here a while (pre18 Apr 2000 - 3409 posts) and being nosey and one of those people who loves "beta testing for free copies" people do ask me about this or that regarding selling stuff. I have no idea of sales numbers other than my own old Y2K numbers and my numbers for sex themed stuff I was recruited to make under a pseudonym but I always tell people the same thing if they ask: *

Never make anything for the market no matter how innovative or wonderful you think it is... the grief and ego twisting just isn't worth it.

Make what you like for yourself and if you must sell it instead of giving it away choose a nice low price that will make people love you -- see BATLAB, BVH, Kobomax, 9MBI, etc. Treat any income as a welcome surprise you can squander on other content. The only people I actually encourage to sell stuff seriously are people who live in countries where the per capita income is below USD$4,500.00 per year.

I will admit I put some stuff in the market after maintaining my relatively large freebie site became too expensive. My intent was to keep the stuff available since I was giving up internet services altogether for a couple years. I made a few thousand bucks a year the first couple years for stuff priced low by the standard of the day but as soon as my income dropped below $500 or so a month I made the ideological decision to support other vendors by spending every last cent of store income on Poser content. 232 RMP orders and probably another hundred at stores like PoserPros, RDNA and Netherworks, QrafFX and other small or one-vendor stores and PayPal donations to Freebie providers... I sure as hell don't want to know what the total was but I am glad to have done my bit even though I am now among the retired and disabled crowd.

Non-artists don't ever realize that it is easier to sell a painting for $30K than $300 and a surprising number of people seem to expect to become well loved Poser vendors who clear $50 per hour of development time but in this market clearing a few hundred dollars for a project sold at under $10 a unit is doing pretty well as far as I can tell. I don't know how often people who do other sorts of crafts are able to quit their day jobs but it doesn't seem to me to be realistic to think you can earn from a Poser project what you would from a decent commercial art freelance gig, thousands, instead of what would be more reasonable, to expect from it what you would make selling art at a crafts bizzar (hundreds) and just figure you have used the market to distribute your stuff with no out of pocket overhead and with the bonus of maybe being able to clear your store wishlist.

It saddens me how many amazing Poser products (see I have to call them products now instead of say artworks) are buried because people can't accept they wont be "properly" compensated for them so instead of putting them in Freestuff they let them sit on the hard drive until they slip into obsolescence (man I wish I could afford to buy Traveler's Aurora!), and how many great products make no sales because they end up booted for low sales because of prices that don't acknowledge the market reality of the $9 glass ceiling (I tend to shop only clearance now).

Anton, I am impressed by the choice you made with Apollo. I wonder what you think of it? I imagine the karma and self-esteem have been worth something to you.

BTW, no joke, I would say that 90% of the Poser users that I have become intimate enough to discuss personal matters have disclosed to me they were either crippled or disabled by clinical depression :)

Quote - I think it's a weird market all the way around. Frankly at times it pisses me off too. Why? Well, I spend a pile of money for some content and add-ons for it let's say a figure and later the same thing is half price or free a few months later. Now that encourages the heck out me to spend money. Same with the software. I buy it right out of the gate and upgrade and less than a year later they're running specials or giving it away with the purchase of something else. The only advantage I get is getting to play with it sooner than those who waited, but they get it for next to nothing compaired to what I payed for it. Then there is Poser 7 that needed updates or something dang it, but EF sold out and right before the release of a new version. Seriously, this market is killing itself. byAnton why do you give Apollo away for free? If it's all about making money?

You've probably answered that before, but I never heard it.

I retired Apollo because stores kept trying to use him as a pawn/point of leverage to force me to make content, compromise my ethics, or as just a simple tool to control what I said or did. This is never going to happen. So I retired him after Renderosity recinded a half dozen invitations to move him to Renderosity.

They first approached me in 2005 and kept asking ever after. So first I took Apollo off of CP after an accounting dispute. During that transition, Rendo recinded it's offer after I filed a claim of copyright infringement against a supposed broker here.

At that point I was just fed up. I was more annoyed than angry, but sort of thought, "Their loss".

I made Apollo free, because I was always getting email asking for him to be made available. I thought it would be a nice gesture for merchants and people who like male figures. And I am happy to do it.

Originally I was just going to re-release the 2006 version, but I started playing around with old ideas, and it sort of snowballed.

I could have sold him again, but thought making him free would be more fun after such a good run.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Good for you!

That was dang generous to the community. Thanks for sharing.

dogor,

Quote - I could have sold him again, but thought making him free would be more fun after such a good run.

Hats off to you Anton. I don't know of many people who would have done the same thing knowing they could have made a small fortune selling him.
We are grateful for sure.

Hey thanks. I am happy to do it. I always beleived that sappy stuff like "One person can make a difference" and all that stuff. If it isn't fun, it isn't worth it.

momodot,

I love every word of your post. I was going to quote it, but just surfice to say I agree. I think this market is now great for those learning, enjoying or interested in part time fun for part time pay.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - I don't have an exact amount, but in the year Apollo was for sale, with his few Epic Clothing Packs, I took between $60-$70,000 at both RDNA and then CP. I think the larger half was at RDNA, because he was there longer.

All the more astounding is your generosity in giving him away free afterward. I have said this before, but you are a great man Anton.

My Freebies

Hi Everyone

Even when one sells a 3d figure at Poser market prices it can be considered " giving it away "
Check out the links http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/139153
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm/ID/248996

Jeez, who would pay that price when you can get better for less!

It's very refreshing to hear your views Anton, I appreciate your sharing some background too. Getting to know who you are, and am happy for it.

With all this said I would be interested in any views about something I read today in regards to DAZ studio, I bring this up because I think it is possibly a defining point between DAZ and Poser. I read that DAZ has joined forces with Mogware, bringing a connection interface between DAZ and the gaming world...which in my opinion is going to be the difference that will seperate these 2 companies. Personally, I see the gaming world loosening it's biased view of Poser/DAZ content and opening itself up to the thought of, "Why reinvent the wheel everyday?" (ie; why create a model from scratch when we have perfectly good figures here to use as a base and go from there). I'm certain the rigging will ultimately be the sticking point but somebody has to figure that out sooner or later, or improve...and it needs it!

I just thought that this area of the market has been ripe for the picking (as most of the content I create is game oriented) and I was surprised to see DAZ hit the mark first.
Thoughts?

Comitted to excellence through art.

Hey I lke this one.
http://www.turbosquid.com/FullPreview/Index.cfm?id=251252

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - It's very refreshing to hear your views Anton, I appreciate your sharing some background too. Getting to know who you are, and am happy for it.

With all this said I would be interested in any views about something I read today in regards to DAZ studio, I bring this up because I think it is possibly a defining point between DAZ and Poser. I read that DAZ has joined forces with Mogware, bringing a connection interface between DAZ and the gaming world...which in my opinion is going to be the difference that will seperate these 2 companies. Personally, I see the gaming world loosening it's biased view of Poser/DAZ content and opening itself up to the thought of, "Why reinvent the wheel everyday?" (ie; why create a model from scratch when we have perfectly good figures here to use as a base and go from there). I'm certain the rigging will ultimately be the sticking point but somebody has to figure that out sooner or later, or improve...and it needs it!

I just thought that this area of the market has been ripe for the picking (as most of the content I create is game oriented) and I was surprised to see DAZ hit the mark first.
Thoughts?

I know it sounds cool, but I really don't see that there are thousands and thousands of people interested. Most gamers make their own stuff or hire people. Many use Poser for previewing, but I can't imagine this would really go anywhere. But it would be interesting to see.

You have to keep in mind that Daz is all about "the latest project". All those people have to do something everyday. I don't want to sound unkind, but their past projects never really go anywhere. I can think of a few not commonly known, but some people may remember.

-You guys know about that DIck VanDyke book. It is a shame that is what it ended up as instead of a TV special.
-The Anna Marie Goddard thing and some associated TV press never panned out a industry phenomenon. I think she posted once or a coupel times and quiety backed away from the whole thing..
-Not sure how the Ligtwave networking ever panned out.
-They owned that clipart site that I can;t remeber the name of.
-Mimic and Bryce have sort of run their course, with the dev team not working out. Probably to divert salaries back into the company.

I love video games. L_O_V_E T_H_E_M!!!!! lol But the joy and fun and allure of video games is to create. People want to make stuff.

I just don't see anything coming of this; at least not at this time. I think this is just in a long line of cross-company marketing campaigns to create visibility. Was there a press release yet? I dunno, this one will be interesting. I just don't know how well they are currently respected or trusted in the industry. What is the next version isn;t compatible and it takes 6 months to fix it?

I would love to get some of my provate Poser figures into a sim-like or second life-type enviornment. That would be so much fun. I love the idea of Apolo figures into provate worlds oppose to video games.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Hi Anton

Thanks for the advice. When one considers the time and resources spent on creating a 3d figure for Poser, 70,000 is barely breaking even.

BTW everyone the figures you see in your video games, they're exclusives. Their price range is 3000 to 5000 plus royalties.

Quote - Hi Anton

Thanks for the advice. When one considers the time and resources spent on creating a 3d figure for Poser, 70,000 is barely breaking even.

Oh and that is before taxes, which people better be paying because all these stores are submitting these records to the IRS, Daz especially.

Yeah, I was happy but it isn't viable in 2008 with heating oil at $3.50 a gallon. My house oil bill is $950/month this winter. It is shocking.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

*Yeah, I was happy but it isn't viable in 2008 with heating oil at $3.50 a gallon. My house oil bill is $950/month this winter. It is shocking.

*I believe it. Mine was $700+. I'm glad you are sharing this information. For me it's a relief to hear the truth about the Poser market. Kind of puts things in perspective.

Quote - -Stright men render the women they want.... well you know the type.
-Stright women render the women they want to be.... princesses, soft/petite, enticing , youthful, thin.

with exceptions, of course.

Sheesh, I always knew I wuz a bit strange... Why should guys have all the fun.

But, yes, I think in an arena where a level of sexual expression is alowed, it is likely to be one of the main driving forces. It's only one of the most powerful drives in nature - so why not it have influence in one's artistic expression.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - The funny thing to me is that Apollo hasn't become the male standard given how people feel about M3. Is it simply that RMP and DAZ are the entry point for most end-users and they just can't make the jump to a FREE superior figure?

Apollo may be superior in rigging and most everything... but some of us simply don't like his face. I think his body is great, really great - but I totally and absolutely detest his pudgy face. He simply isn't to my taste and even free... I don't use him.
If M3 had the same pudgy face - I wouldn't use him either. It's simply a matter of taste.
(Please don't start with the 'if you get xyz's morphs/textures this that and the other - been there. Gone through it, I don't like the face. We can't all like the same thing. It's a personal choice. The End.)

However - I am really looking forward to Phantom3D's male figure (I don't do much with the females and I have enough of them) to the extent that I'm looking at learning Hexagon properly so I might be able to uh... create stuff for the figure. :)

Silke

My impossible fantasy... the UNIVERSAL NECK.

Why the heel couldn't there be a standard neck so people could head swap all they want?

I would settle for the UNIVERSAL NECK scarf for that matter ;^(

Silke, you do know your not suppose to just use the default face right?

I think the fact you don't use him is really the problem. His face is pudgy only if you dial him that way. The defualt is simply a blank. You also have the face room at your disposal.

You should try the 2007 release. It's like food. You have to taste it before you say your don;t like it. But really taste it. :) Once you do you'll relealize you can make more unique faces with Apollo than any other figure. You can even make Mike and David style faces if that is what you like; easily.

Either way. Use what you like. That's all that matters. :)

But if you want, show me a pic of a face you love and I'll mimic on Apollo for you.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Yes, Anton should be thanked for providing Apollo to the community for free. So should all of the myriad of other freestuff providers who are so kind in sharing their time and effort with us.

BTW - I know a fair number of people who make their full living off of Poser. And a good living, too. In addition -- as some have already so helpfully pointed out -- I also know a lot of others who view Poser as providing a nice supplemental income. Personally, I've never seen anything wrong with supplemental income. Even if it isn't, strictly speaking, necessary. The busy stay busy, I suppose..........

Designing real-world buildings / 3D fantasy -- the difference being that the fantasy side of the equation is fun as well as profitable.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Xeno,

Are you having a bad day or something?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Ah, yes -- and permit me to add: thanks go to the commercial websites, to the vendors, and to the companies without whose software, models, and hard work this hobby / semi-profession / profession (your choice) would not be possible for those of us who enjoy it.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - Xeno,

Are you having a bad day or something?

Whatever gave you that idea? But to answer: no, I'm not.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

3/24/08

"But, yes, I think in an arena where a level of sexual expression is alowed, it is likely to be one of the main driving forces. It's only one of the most powerful drives in nature - so why not it have influence in one's artistic expression."

Conniekat8:

I bought Poser to render bowls of fruit and dogs playing poker. Didn't everyone?

Incidentally, I looked through all the pages of V4 clothing at RMP to find a standard business suit. Guess how many I found?

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Hi Silke

I usually don't make it a habit of comparing Poser figures, but then again those of us at CG society don't view Apollo as a Poser figure. We view him as a 3d figure. Check it out http://forums.cgsociety.org/showthread.php?f=47&t=571544&highlight=apollo+maximus
Sites up and running again

Quote - V4 clothing at RMP to find a standard business suit. Guess how many I found?

Off the cuff, there are several suits here that might do, depending upon the style of business suit that you're looking for:

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=kobamax

Or here. Several of them might work; the "Hilliary Clinton" sets have a standard business suit included with the character package:

http://market.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=517634

There are no doubt others that will work as well, but I don't have the time to look for them right now.

Poserworld is an excellent source of such clothing, too.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

In reading this thread earlier it seems to be a popular point of veiw that people should simply give away their creations, or price them at nothing. I can understand the sentiment. Many people create in poser as a hobby and use other peoples work to make their renders ect. Do any of you paint or work some other arts and crafts? Do you expect to get your paints and brush's, canvas and supplies for free? Should the people who create those things simply give away their hard work and time so you can pursue your hobby? I think there would be no supplies if that were the case. I would love to be a modeler full time, explore sculpting in the 3D realm, I can't afford to. I have to live eat and pay my bills. I know what it's like to be a starving artist, living on the street, painting peoples portrait in the plaza and market to get enough to eat and continue, no one wanting to pay me for what my work was worth. I gave up, I quit,I got too old to live that way anymore.

People put their time effort and talent into the peices they create, so you don't have to. They deserve to get paid.

.

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Quote - People put their time effort and talent into the peices they create, so you don't have to. They deserve to get paid.

Yep.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Speaking of that .

Xenophonz, do you get paid a standard wage to beta test for the marketplace? I know most sites don't pay beta testers. Just curious. Beta testers invest a lot of time.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Yes, Anton, testing is a paid position at Renderosity. And yes, it's my understanding that most sites don't actually pay their testers, outside of "taking it out in trade".

And three times yes -- testing is time-consuming. But I enjoy it -- so it provides more than one type of compensation. Plus it keeps me off of the street.

I suppose that offering your hard work & talent for free to the community provides a different type of compensation of its own.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

3/25/08

The one thing in life that you can count on being abundantly free is advice. And it is generally worth every penny you pay for it.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Quote - 3/25/08

The one thing in life that you can count on being abundantly free is advice. And it is generally worth every penny you pay for it.

LMK

:laugh:

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - Yes, Anton, testing is a paid position at Renderosity. And yes, it's my understanding that most sites don't actually pay their testers, outside of "taking it out in trade".

And three times yes -- testing is time-consuming. But I enjoy it -- so it provides more than one type of compensation. Plus it keeps me off of the street.

I suppose that offering your hard work & talent for free to the community provides a different type of compensation of its own.

Cool. You guys deserve to get paid. Glad at least Rendeorsity pays beta testers.

I never thought about feeling comphensated for having Apollo be free. That's interesting. I am happy people enjoy him as much as they do. And I enjoy sharing/ helping people. I think it is probably best described as feeling good about contributing something positive, trying to make things better for all; despite some of the reactions and comments.

Making Apollo free did end most all of the forum trolling merchants are prone to. So that was a bonus.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

When people give their own works away for free, great, more power to them. But to complain about paying a paltry 10 bucks for something that someone put alot of effort into, and feel those people aught to just give it to them, its absurd. If you want it pay for it.

.

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Oh, I'd never react negatively to anyone who wishes to provide their talents, know-how, and their hard work to the community for free.

We might disagree over certain methodologies & technical business issues -- which we no doubt do. We probably strongly disagree on other matters, too. But as I've indicated elsewhere and at other times to other people -- such disagreements do not stem from any personally-based animus. shrug Online debates usually occur with people who -- in reality -- you don't know (at all) on that sort of level. So you can disagree without it meaning anything beyond the bare basis of the immediate debate. IMO, there isn't a place for personal insult in this type of format. But of course: I can only control my own behavior, and not that of others.

I have to give you credit: you did not go to that level at all here. Unfortunately, many do.

My earlier statement that you were to be thanked for providing your work for free was not intended as sarcasm. I will thank anyone who does that.

On the other hand, I also thank those who seek to be paid for their work. Each contributes in their own way -- and neither should be looked down upon for doing what they do. That's positive, IMO.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

3/25/08

phantom3D:

Were I to put my money where my mouth is, I wouldn't know how to agree with you more than to be among the first of your customers, which I hope will be soon. :) LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Hi Phantom 3d

I agree. For me, I'm ready to quit and head back over to CgSociety, build up my portfolio and make a few demo reels. Midway Games in Chicago is hiring. BTW Have you joined CGSociety yet?

Cheers

Pat

I hope they hire you at a fabulous salary, Pat.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - Hi Phantom 3d

I agree. For me, I'm ready to quit and head back over to CgSociety, build up my portfolio and make a few demo reels. Midway Games in Chicago is hiring. BTW Have you joined CGSociety yet?

Cheers

Pat

No I haven't I went and looked but was not sure what the site was exactly, I am all very new to this internet and 3D. Plus at this time I cannot really afford the price to join.

XENOPHONZ: I was not aware of it if I attacked anyone personally, but those are my feelings, and veiwpoint on the subject, one which all too often goes unsaid, and just as valid as any other. If so many people want to give from their heart then why not support some of these great artists who rely on selling their work to get by? The arts and artistic expression die without support, and yes that means money support as well. We have lost too much already.

lkendall: thanks, I hope it will be soon.

phantom3D

.

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Phantom3D:

Actually, my post wasn't directed to you at all......I was responding to Anton. I posted that before I'd even seen your post just above it. Sorry for any confusion.

In fact, I agree with the things that you've been saying.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Xenophonz,

Oh it's all good. Thanks. No worries.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - Xenophonz,

Oh it's all good. Thanks. No worries.

Very good.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

3/25/08

????

This is spooky. I could swear I smell a campfire, and I think I hear some one tuning a guitar to sing "Kum-ba-ya." I'm going to bed before the group hugs start.

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

Quote - 3/25/08

????

This is spooky. I could swear I smell a campfire, and I think I hear some one tuning a guitar to sing "Kum-ba-ya." I'm going to bed before the group hugs start.

LMK

:lol:

If you prefer it, I can bring up sure-fire topics that we'll really fight about.......and turn this thread into one of those 35,000+ viewings types of threads. Only problem is that they'd lock it -- the mods around here are like that. They prefer to keep things down to a dull roar most of the time.

Deliberately disengaging over what could have been an interesting & prolonged fight is so......boring, I know. No fun to read. A very unsatisfying conclusion. sigh

Forum free-for-alls can be fun. But in my experience: they can also be an utter waste of time. I'll fight when I believe there's a need to. I don't see that here.

People might still be snarling at each other over the campfire -- but at least the night is quiet out. And no one's tossed a burning stick in my general direction yet.

If you crave excitement, then you might want to try throwing some gasoline on the campfire before you go to bed......although at $3.20-to-$3.50 / gallon, doing that could get expensive...........especially if you set the woods on fire in the process. Blacken the marshmallows, and people could get very upset.........they might form up a lynch mob.......and then you never can tell what might happen.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

I heard what "Kum-by-ya" meant once, but I've forgotten. It's late, so I won't take the time to google it & then impress everyone with my encyclopedic grasp of meaningless trivia.

I'm signing out, too. :m_sleep:

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - Just a tought on that...

Content paradise seem to be the only company offering base characters and i was really wondering why.

I am amazed that no one wants to tap into the base market and compete...

Daz seems to want to become it's whole one in all solution and move slowly away from poser which is a shame....

But besides that you have to wonder ..there is a ton of 3d artists out there basically starving but no one seems inclined to get on the bandwagon to create figures for poser....

If Daz decides to cut away completely from poser, i can see poser suffer an horrible death because most people use daz for their 3d assets.

Without discounting content paradise which offer good products, daz is the giant in this business and it is gonna end up like crap for the users because of that monopoly....

my 2 cents

Hmmm... OK, I'll bite!

Base characters were always hard to make. Standards are higher and the market is fragmented between programs with different requirements. There are so many morphs and accessories for existing figures that simply offering a compelling new figure into a fragmented marketplace might not be as appealing as it once was.
Because you can't just tap into the base market. You have to have a figure that not only improves on previous figures but does so to the point of overcoming the lack of morphs, poses and accessories that other popular figures enjoy.
Well, Poser figures have always been difficult to make. That's why there are commercial figures and a market to begin with. Just as it briefly looked like there was an unofficial standard for Poser figures, Daz Studio appeared with its own requirements. Poser's owners completely failed to respond to this have done little to assure people just now getting into the marketplace that any long term commitment would be wise.
Daz aren't moving away from Poser, they are just moving while Poser is not. Perhaps they could have maintained greater compatibility with existing Poser content at one time, but why should they care now? They have their own free program which, if it has one thing going for it, is at least still actively developed by people who have some idea what it should become in the future.
Because, given that is it unnaturally difficult to do, there aren't many people looking to learn the arcane art of creating content for a program whose limitations become more apparent with each new version of competing apps. There are only so many swords and temples to make until Poser gains a level of functionality that renders, no pun intended, existing swords and temples obsolete.
Poser won't die because of Daz. If it does die we can blame for it. Don't blame Daz for taking a the inititative to make sure their eggs didn't stay in someone else's basket. Competition is good, remember?
Funny you should blame Daz for all of their hard work paying off. While Poser was changing hands again they were writing their own program practically from the ground up and then gave it away. I won't say they are the best company ever (Hexagon patch guys?) but they didn't get where they are by doing nothing. I'd like to see them face a good competitor in this market too, but I can't fault them for the absence of one. (Hey, there's always iClone!)

No competition is always bad for all but the one with the monopoly. Look at your gas bills and electrical, You have to pay them whatever they tell you to regardless of whether or not what they offer is crap or not, because they are the only source. Blame Daz? No, blame us all for not giving another a chance.

.

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Someone mentioned earlier something about it all becoming wallmartized. Think about that.............Do any of you remember what I call supermarket paintings? All those mass produced paintings on black velvet? That's what happens to art when you wallmartize it. To me that would be a disaster, but you get what you pay for I guess.

.

A HOMELAND FOR POSER FINALLY

Attached Link: 3D World Issue 103

*>>> With all this said I would be interested in any views about something I read today in regards to DAZ studio, I bring this up because I think it is possibly a defining point between DAZ and Poser. I read that DAZ has joined forces with Mogware, bringing a connection interface between DAZ and the gaming world...which in my opinion is going to be the difference that will seperate these 2 companies. Personally, I see the gaming world loosening it's biased view of Poser/DAZ content and opening itself up to the thought of, "Why reinvent the wheel everyday?" (ie; why create a model from scratch when we have perfectly good figures here to use as a base and go from there). I'm certain the rigging will ultimately be the sticking point but somebody has to figure that out sooner or later, or improve...and it needs it! <<<*

The latest issue of 3D World (just out to subscribers, probably soon in stores) talks about this very thing ... and Autodesk is getting into it as well. If Autodesk is heading in this direction as well it must have some merit.

See link, under the "GDC 08" heading.

>> If Poser Pros was successful, it wouldn't have been closed.

Not entirely true. PoserPros was very successful: the store had high quality standards, and the admins were among the best around.

But IMHO DAZ got tired of seeing how well PP was doing and how its own AZ was falling on its face, so it decided, in its best landlord fashion, to move everything it could from PP to AZ, in the hope that it can duplicate PP's success there. Look at the AZ marketplace: it's all formerly PP stuff, with support for figures that DAZ dropped a long time ago, like the K Family. Many of the PP moderators have been asked to move over to the Dark Side to attend to the new fora planned for there.

Dont fool yourself: DAZ saw a good thing in PP and then proceeded to remake it in its own image. Whether or not that'll be as successful is another question for another time.

Edited to clean up coding.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

This has been a very interesting read. I've forgotten what the initial thought was, but interesting none the less...thanks to all. :blink:

My idea of rebooting is kicking somebody in the butt twice!

byAnton, ha ha :)

BTW Apollo in Face Room is really nice, I appreciate that feature. I have seen Bishon Apollos or whatever those girly sharp featured anime figures are called. There is a "gender" dial on the figure! I have seen a female Apollo or two. Some people tried FaceShop Pro with Apollo? I was able to use that app to give the Poser 4 Dork the M3 face... and you can do some fair work on a figures face now in Poser 7 using the Morph Tool too. I got James 6 to look smooth and pudgy with that :)

Deecey,
I too think it has merit, but I've been feeling this way for about the last year or two. Again, it's the reason why I make the figures and products I do, I like that kind genre. I think it's underutilized and neglected. I for one am stoked that Autodesk is entering this field, it shows that one of the big boys is interested.

Comitted to excellence through art.

I'm stoked too! When I first got into 3D that was one of my primary fields of interest. I got sidetracked, but now it looks like it might come full circle! I see this as a very positive and exciting move forward!

I try to support developers with purchases whenever I can given my circumstances but I have seen amazing work die in the market with resulting hard feelings, that is why I most often recommend people not /sell/ stuff they care about and instead give it away. Not because I think people should necessarily get something for nothing, though I do miss the old days of the Poser DYI and freebie culture when people just put stuff out for the "props" of being a notable, but mainly because I feel that the market /is/ oriented to Black Velvet painting and people who make real strides in realism for instance end up hurt when aside from a few afficionados the bulk of the market seems very tittie based. I kind of feel that if people /need/ income they should give the market what it seems to demand, say a cheap dial spin, a big bust, and an MR texture tarted up with a "fantasy make-up", and they should give the work close to their heart away for the glory rather than have it spit on for costing more than $9.95... I think 90% of my income was from stuff I used not once outside of testing and promos... not once. Made it for the fun of making it but had nothing invested in the sales... just gravy to me. Really some superb stuff "fails" in this market and I have seen the bitterness that results. Not worth it IMHO unless you /really/ need the money or you really have the mousetrap that the hoi polloi is seeking. Several profound innovations have been shunted out of RMP "clearance" and some amazing stuff resides on only a half dozen hard drives because the maker didn't want to suffer the indignity of the market. There is great stuff that sells but there is great stuff that doesn't. Are there more than a couple dozen super star vendors? I always ranked in the top 25% which is a very scary thought. It takes a whole marketing and appeal orientation as well as talent and skill to be a Top Seller... there are also amazing artists/modelers doing great work who get passed by which is fine so long as they don't let it hurt their feelings. Then there are hacks and projects I have seen that were truly amazing but died in isolation because the maker couldn't bare to release them cheap to a limited market or didn't want to face the turmult or indifference of the market. I don't know if I am making sense but what do I know anyway?

Quote - byAnton, ha ha :)

BTW Apollo in Face Room is really nice, I appreciate that feature. I have seen Bishon Apollos or whatever those girly sharp featured anime figures are called. There is a "gender" dial on the figure! I have seen a female Apollo or two.

Some people tried FaceShop Pro with Apollo? I was able to use that app to give the Poser 4 Dork the M3 face... and you can do some fair work on a figures face now in Poser 7 using the Morph Tool too. I got James 6 to look smooth and pudgy with that :)

Yes Apollo works in FaceShop Pro. But I believe you hav to do something with the materials for the mapping. Perhaps get rid of the beard material. I can't remember.

Laslo, and I spoke about Apollo and he likes the way Apollo works in FaceSHopPro. We talked about some future stuff, but that was awhile ago.

Post a thread in the CP forums about Apollo and FaceShop Pro.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

I had a long reply written and decided to cut it down to this.

I feel that the market for Poser figures are geared more for the hobbyist than professionals. With people like Anton giving away such a good product in Apollo and Daz with it Studio for software people now who had an interest in 3d now can do so affordable.

Thank you!

Also thanks to all the people who do have products and freebies at all sites.

There will always be products out there that don't sell well,and products that do sell. I know, I have sold here in the past and on my website. I did not make allot but my products did sell.

Poserverse The New Home for NYGUY's Freebies

Err, before we begin, I'd like to add something here: Corporations of all kinds start many, many projects that never really go anywhere... it's definitely not a sign of failure. I get to see a few where I work (R&D), and I gotta tell you, not all of them will make it to any sort of longevity. Many don't even make it past the experimental stage. So no, it is not a sign of failure when some projects go sour, die quietly, or never really get where they were intended to go.

Quote - -You guys know about that DIck VanDyke book. It is a shame that is what it ended up as instead of a TV special.

Blame the market... you have to have a TV network willing to air (and at least partially fund/sponsor) it before you can conceivably commit to building it. Otherwise you're wasting a metric ton of cash. The book OTOH (I have two signed by Mr. Van Dyke - he's a pretty cool gent) was one Hell of a success for its own intended market. The printer IIRC had to do a couple of reprints just to keep up with demand. > Quote - -The Anna Marie Goddard thing and some associated TV press never panned out a industry phenomenon. I think she posted once or a coupel times and quiety backed away from the whole thing..

A one-off, I agree. If more folks purchased it, odds are there would've been more. > Quote - -Not sure how the Ligtwave networking ever panned out.

Ask Newtek. That's where things went quiet. > Quote - -They owned that clipart site that I can;t remeber the name of.

Dunno ab't that one. > Quote - -Mimic and Bryce have sort of run their course, with the dev team not working out. Probably to divert salaries back into the company.

Bryce is still somewhat alive, but the codebase is a nightmare/wreck/disaster by today's tech (to be charitable about it). There's no way to keep it going into the future without a massive investment and a rebuild from the ground-up (sorta like Poser IMHO, in spite of the improvements made since P5). > Quote - I would love to get some of my provate Poser figures into a sim-like or second life-type enviornment. That would be so much fun. I love the idea of Apolo figures into provate worlds oppose to video games.

As someone who has done games development, let me sum it in one word: Polycount. Even the latest GeForces with all the SLI you could conceivably jam into the box wouldn't get you the horsepower required to render a typical Poserdom figure in realtime. > Quote - Yeah, I was happy but it isn't viable in 2008 with heating oil at $3.50 a gallon. My house oil bill is $950/month this winter. It is shocking.

Bleah - I'll keep my heat pump and wood stove, thanks. (And I'm adding a shitload of insulation this year... just bought the house last June). -- > Quote - But, yes, I think in an arena where a level of sexual expression is alowed, it is likely to be one of the main driving forces. It's only one of the most powerful drives in nature - so why not it have influence in one's artistic expression.

Gotcha covered... but Rendo's TOS won't let me link to Renderotica. -- > Quote - 4) Daz aren't moving away from Poser, they are just moving while Poser is not. Perhaps they could have maintained greater compatibility with existing Poser content at one time, but why should they care now? They have their own free program which, if it has one thing going for it, is at least still actively developed by people who have some idea what it should become in the future.

Exactly. -- > Quote - No competition is always bad for all but the one with the monopoly. Look at your gas bills and electrical, You have to pay them whatever they tell you to regardless of whether or not what they offer is crap or not, because they are the only source. Blame Daz? No, blame us all for not giving another a chance.

Yes and no. DAZ has no monopoly, IMHO. Sure, they have the majority, but no monopoly. I can use Terai Yuki without using a single DAZ product, no sweat. I pretty much have to build everything for it, due to lack of support, but I can use it w/o a hitch. I can use Kururu without paying a single dime - thanks to some very, very generous folks (esp. Mato, who seriously rocks IMHO). So no - no monopoly (yet... but that depends on you folks, not me. I've always liked trying and using other figures). -- > Quote - But IMHO DAZ got tired of seeing how well PP was doing and how its own AZ was falling on its face, so it decided, in its best landlord fashion, to move everything it could from PP to AZ, in the hope that it can duplicate PP's success there.

For once, we agree. -- /P

*For once, we agree.

We have several times, thank you, Ditch the attitude, huh?

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - >> *For once, we agree.

*We have several times, thank you, Ditch the attitude, huh?

No! Never! NEVAR!

(jeez - lighten up already, old man...)

/P

Oh, I"m sorry. Was that supposed to be a joke?

Gosh. Silly me. Look, everyone: Tom told a funny! Everyone laugh!

Now, now that nonsense is out of the way, can we return to the actual point of the thread?

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

As it all stands right now, it's going to take nothing less than an earthquake to shove DAZ off its pedestal. As much as I love Apollo, his release was fortuitous in the sense that DAZ clearly had no clue what M4 was going to be and had almost no interest in developing it, let alone anything in support of M3. But there was no way they were going to allow that to happen to their flagship Barbie doll, so the revisions and the news came fast and furious, not to mention the third party support. Heck, look at the recent "March Madness", which was nothing but a Parade of Dresses and a single, four year old product for M3. We were told that there were "other things being developed, but they didnt get finished in time," which sounded then and sounds now fairly lame. DAZ just has no interest in the male stuff, which allows creators like Anton to ride high. But were anyone to dare to make a quality figure in competition with Vicky version X.0, you'd see some serious marketing and probably a ton of stuff being given away to woo those customers back.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

I think you have it about right, Sean.
And that "Oh oops male stuff... what have we got lying around..." afterthought was an insult considering people have been screaming for months about male stuff.
The only new one I saw lately was that bio armor which... err... yeah. I can see David go to the office in that.
There's a lot of rubbish out there, and every time we do end up with something -- well. It tends to be sub-par and an afterthought. Usually a costly afterthought, at that.

Silke

There are many non-DAZ human figures, many of them free, some require purchase. Personally, I like to get figures (which are not already bundled with Poser) that can be useful for my own art projects.

Again speaking for myself, I don't feel that I must use the DAZ figures all the time. I love MayaDoll and BJD, for example. I also like to use Apollo Maximus, Adam 2, H.I.M., and Behemoth. And there are many other free toon humanoids which are great fun to use, depending on the project.

Eternal Hobbyist

I havent used the MilFolk once in the past five years. They always struck me as akin to painting with thick oil: difficult to move around and still looking stiff when you're finished. The sorta/kinda exception would be Hiro, but even that mesh is so poly heavy that it's tough to load, let alone maneuver... and I'm working off a fairly serious machine.

But if you notice, all the non-MilFolk stuff is bought from outside from the PAs. The things generated within DAZ are very different animals, so to speak.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - Now, now that nonsense is out of the way...

...meeeeOW! Kitty want some milk? Oh - ahem - I meant... Why yes, Your Eminence... Please pardon us proletariat, eh 'guv? ;) -- > Quote - As it all stands right now, it's going to take nothing less than an earthquake to shove DAZ off its pedestal.

...or a better figure that has the same or better flexibility (in options, if not joints). > Quote - As much as I love Apollo, his release was fortuitous in the sense that DAZ clearly had no clue what M4 was going to be and had almost no interest in developing it, let alone anything in support of M3.

Err, there's a bit of backstory to the whole Apollo/Michael thing that, which, in the interests of keeping things from erupting into a shout-fest, I'll keep to myself. Suffice it to say that Apollo wasn't exactly a surprise. As for Male figures, take a peek at Vicky 4.2's morph dials sometime... lots of male names in there. They tried this with a Vicky 3 Male morph (which IMHO was pretty good, though not perfect), but never really went anywhere with it and opted for M3 instead. I think this time they're going to just have one mesh, two genders. Or maybe not. If they don't, no big... other folks make male figures. > Quote - But were anyone to dare to make a quality figure in competition with Vicky version X.0, you'd see some serious marketing and probably a ton of stuff being given away to woo those customers back.

...like how Microsoft came out with Internet Explorer 7 after Firefox began eating away at IE's market share. Or how Intel came out with the Core series of CPU's after they saw AMD dominating with Opteron. Or how DAZ built Aiko 3 after seeing Anime Doll (and similar models) swallow some serious attention back in the day. Companies do that sometimes - it's the nature of the beast, and IMHO what makes competition a good thing. If there's a big enough male market, DAZ (and anyone else) would've come out with a new male figure by now. As it is, let's face it - the male-figure market ain't really big enough to bother with new bits and bobs... No emotion in saying it, just stating what's known. Infinity10 hit it dead-on when s/he(?) wrote: > Quote - Personally, I like to get figures (which are not already bundled with Poser) that can be useful for my own art projects.

...and that's what it all boils down to. Loyalty stops cold when there's a project afoot, and it doesn't matter which company or individual supplies the mesh. As it should be. /P

One thing I can add.
Selling Poser content has made me develop my 3d modelling/uvmapping/texturing/etc skills exponentially. IMHO, it is not just a "sword and temple" thing. A product will not be successful in the long run if it is not done "right". For figures, you have to compete against Apollo (which is free!). For hair, against Kozaburo (which most are free!). On clothing, for example, against aery soul (some free, some not). Etc etc.
So while I do relish the supplemental income selling Poser thingies has given me, I value more the improvement on my skills it has given me.
Probably, if you want to get rich, as a merchant, make a very high quality product for a very popular figure. Market rules.
I like to support the figures I like. Maybe I won't get rich. But I can be proud of doing what I like. And getting paid for it. And if I feel like it, release something for free just because I'm in the mood.

still hooked to real life and enjoying the siesta!
Visit my blog! :D
Visit my portfolio! :D

Don't make me post cat pictures. You don't want that.

My Freebies

Maybe YOU can't....

I can! :P

Silke

dang I've been pre-emptive cat picture'd!!

My Freebies

Why yes, Your Eminence... Please pardon us proletariat, eh 'guv? ;)

Tom, when you have a moment, get over yourself, huh? I'm not interested in your silly "jokes", okay? They're lame and idiotic, and I sorta thought you might have outgrown them. Apparently not.

Moving on to people with actual things to say...

Probably, if you want to get rich, as a merchant, make a very high quality product for a very popular figure. Market rules.

I'm not so sure. There are some merchants out there, like LittleFox, who model strictly to please themselves and have still developed self-standing lines that have been very, very successful. That suggests that you can go in one of two directions: either follow a successful character's lead or build one on your own, but do it in such an original way that the market responds.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Careful. One Lolcat usually begets another!

Silke

Guys, if you want to feed the troll, be my guest.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - I'm not so sure. There are some merchants out there, like LittleFox, who model strictly to please themselves and have still developed self-standing lines that have been very, very successful. That suggests that you can go in one of two directions: either follow a successful character's lead or build one on your own, but do it in such an original way that the market responds.

Quite true on LittleFox . Sadly, I don't think this repeating too often. But let's hope it does. Subvariations of swords and temples can only go so far.

still hooked to real life and enjoying the siesta!
Visit my blog! :D
Visit my portfolio! :D

> Quote - ***Penuinsto wrote: Err, there's a bit of backstory to the whole Apollo/Michael thing that, which, in the interests of keeping things from erupting into a shout-fest, I'll keep to myself. Suffice it to say that Apollo wasn't exactly a surprise. ***

Tom,

First, most sentences you end with "I'll keep to myselff", which is always funny since you keep nothing to yourself if you can brag about it, usually means you are fishing for something; usually a reaction rather than information since you are seldom interested in anything as boring as information.

Second, I can't imagine what backstory there would be. I never worked on m3. That work was kept internally to the in-house dev team. Michael Lane and I both urged them to let us handle it for the, but Cris wanted it kept internally. We had no problems with that. And I started on Apollo after I left Daz and declined a new contract.

Third, only one person in all of Poserdom knew of Apollo, and that was Laurie Stanley (LaurieS), who yes is a long part of the Platinum Club, whom I brought on board. Laurie and I stayed in touch for some time afterwards.

Now whether or not you are insinuating that Laurie, the only person ever told of Apollo, shared this fact with Daz. Well, I would assume she did. I doesn't bother me if she showed renders, since that is all she ever had. It wou;dn't even suprise me, now that I think of it. I suppose I would have expected it.

But I think it sort of childish, all these years later, to still be trying to stir up intriques. I really don't even see how your reply is relevant to Sean's comment you quoted other than being a vehicle for you.

If you were truly going to keep it to yourself, whatever "it" was, then you wouldn't have said anything. But that wasn't the point was it? sigh Just sad, but again, not unexpected. lol

Why are you not as honest whith your intentions here at Rendo as you post elswhere?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Moving to the positive side of things...

Anton, you once spoke (IIRC) of doing a female counterpart for Apollo. Given the quality in that model, I can only imagine what the reaction would be were you to follow through with... Aphrodite? :-)

Have you given that any thought? You know the fan base would be salivating, and if anything were to give DAZ a run, it would be that.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

I want to reply to this. I'll pop right back in a minute.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - Moving to the positive side of things...

Anton, you once spoke (IIRC) of doing a female counterpart for Apollo. Given the quality in that model, I can only imagine what the reaction would be were you to follow through with... Aphrodite? :-)

Have you given that any thought? You know the fan base would be salivating, and if anything were to give DAZ a run, it would be that.

Sorry bout that. I had to run upstairs.

Sean, I agree there would be a reaction. Have I given it though? Yes. Of course. :)

The problem is people don't want me to give Daz a run. They want me to show Daz how to improve their females. I learned that lesson with Apollo. V4 is so similar to Apollo in many ways, it will be interesting to see how M4 is not similar to Apollo.

I am one person. They are a company with legions of merchants who can quickly recreate, immitate, and reproduce anything I do for a female figure.

Right now I have no plans on doing one. I created Apollo as a non-bias alternative to the community, a quailty male for the gay community, and something everyone had always asked for. And for it, I got trolled, my WIP threads moved (yet recent ones by others aren't), immitated, insulted, with little more than a "well that's just healthy competition". And mostly from the very people I made Apollo for.

Apollo, 3 years later, still stands strong because of the quality people speak of. But that quality took over 6 months of devoted effor. Many people have been ever supportive of Apollo publically and privately; but mostly only when he became free.

I just don't know why, after everything that happened with Apollo, I would do another figure.

I will say, the vicousness in the gay community from those who begged for a male figure equal to any female, was the only thing that hurt my feelings. It was then I realized most people want Daz to make their figures; or me to show them how.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Speaking of a thriving industry.

Anyone see that they are closing Product Showcase to anything outside Rendo.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2734970
I like the "But if you want to sell here at Rendo.." part. And of course the thread is locked.

Didn't product showcase start when they they forbid any commercial posts in the Poser forum. That was, of course, before the ban on freebie posts.

I wonder how long before that freebie forum is closed. Perhaps that will boost sales too.

Hey how about banning non-Rendo site ads in signatures next?

Sad. sad. sad.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

It's not surprising, given what's happened at CP vis-a-vis Rendo and RDNA. It's all segmenting, based (as usual) on the marketplaces. There really isnt much of a community anymore, just merchants and buyers.

God bless our merchant-driven websites, every one... ;)

The problem is people don't want me to give Daz a run.

I did have to laugh at that a bit, only because... well, face it, Anton: after all these years in the supposed community, do relative old Poser timers like you and me really give a rat's tuchus what "people" do or do not want? :-) My favourite mesh is five years old this month. I could care less about the latest incarnation of Vicky and her Magic Morphing Sisters.

I'd say, go for it. And then watch your back... a lot. IMHO, you could create one heckuva magnificent model for the ladies. And the crowd would go wild.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

my 12 oz. curls caught up with me: sorry, posted when I shouldn't have...
ignore the man leaving the room

Comitted to excellence through art.

Quote - It's not surprising, given what's happened at CP vis-a-vis Rendo and RDNA. It's all segmenting, based (as usual) on the marketplaces. There really isnt much of a community anymore, just merchants and buyers.

God bless our merchant-driven websites, every one... ;)

The problem is people don't want me to give Daz a run.

I did have to laugh at that a bit, only because... well, face it, Anton: after all these years in the supposed community, do relative old Poser timers like you and me really give a rat's tuchus what "people" do or do not want? :-) My favourite mesh is five years old this month. I could care less about the latest incarnation of Vicky and her Magic Morphing Sisters.

I'd say, go for it. And then watch your back... a lot. IMHO, you could create one heckuva magnificent model for the ladies. And the crowd would go wild.

Yup, I'd LOVE to see this too. Apollina or Apollonia or what-have-you. Near the final states get some decent merchants/freebie makers to beta for you.... Then they'll know how to effectively support the figure right from the start. From there you could extend it out a bit and have the female gain concerted support at release time (or shortly after) to deflect or match a "Crazy-Eddies" sale campaign by DAZ or anyone else, spurred by the release of her.

I'd be more than willing to assist in this an I could pull in at least one very decent texturer and modeler in addition to myself. I'm talking a campaign of freebies and products.

I'm very ready to use a new female figure with those perfect touches... without a zillion embedded deformers and thousands of external morph calls - It's just too much in my book.

I think that's why I've just been in limbo for a while. I get ready to design something for some of these magnet and dial monsters and think.. ugh. So I fall back on my toon work, heh. Which is not-quite-but-almost put me on the street. A few good sales have keep me off the curb thus far. It's the happiest sight I see when I get some stats back, from sales or whatnot, and see that folks are actually buying my toon figures :) I just want people to enjoy them and see what's there beyond the "box view".

Again I'm ready for some exciting changes and I think a lot of folks are. There was a lot of excitement with the pre-4 victorias and with Aiko 3 but ... eh... Doesn't seem to have the same feel of wonder or WOW! a figure release had. It's more of an ...oh. As in, oh... A new batch thingy to run after a merchant deciphers (or wants to deal with) the new injection "system", or oh... There's so many magnets baked into the figure, along with high density that it putters along the screen after you've loaded a few accessories. or... oh... Can't install out of the main Poser 7 runtime because there are so many external readscript calls that Poser goes bonkers.

To me, it just comes off pretty clunky. No offense to V4 lovers and I do "try" to use the figure and develop at least some things for her.

I've blabbed long enough.

.

Quote - Speaking of a thriving industry.

Anyone see that they are closing Product Showcase to anything outside Rendo.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2734970
I like the "But if you want to sell here at Rendo.." part. And of course the thread is locked.

Didn't product showcase start when they they forbid any commercial posts in the Poser forum. That was, of course, before the ban on freebie posts.

I wonder how long before that freebie forum is closed. Perhaps that will boost sales too.

Hey how about banning non-Rendo site ads in signatures next?

Sad. sad. sad.

I wholly agree. I saw that coming a long time ago. Be care of too much internalization, Renderosity, it's practically killed some sites. "Pulling it all in" might keep people out.

.

very interesting thread. Sean i love ya.. and i used to think very highly of you. But... There is alot of just Deadwrongness in your posts in this thread. Things they are 100% completly wrong and seeing you say them makes me sad to be honest.

Quote - Anyone see that they are closing Product Showcase to anything outside Rendo. http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2734970 I like the "But if you want to sell here at Rendo.." part. And of course the thread is locked. Didn't product showcase start when they they forbid any commercial posts in the Poser forum. That was, of course, before the ban on freebie posts.

This is merely part of a larger trend. The PTB can say what they will, but the CP and Rendo cutting ties, now this... see the pattern yet? -- > Quote - I'd say, go for it. And then watch your back... a lot. IMHO, you could create one heckuva magnificent model for the ladies. And the crowd would go wild.

Maybe, maybe not. Many have tried, many have failed. Brandenburg tried the hardest when he literally (as CEO of Zygote) 'open-sourced' the (albeit unrigged) Posette mesh. Of course, he specifically did that with the intent of bringing DAZ it's knees (accrding to one rumored quote). His failure was that he underestimated the willingness of the larger community to bother with refining and re-rigging an ancient (popular, but ancient) mesh. Even Daz has a hard time introducing new female figures that last very long. During the big fat 'toon craze a few years back, Girl was introduced... it had no real longevity. Neftis' Neftoon Gal was rock-solid for its time, but fell by the wayside quickly (a pity, too). Alexis made a splash @ 3DCommune, but waned long before the mesh ripoff scandal. As far as non 'toon figures? There have been a few. None have really took off. Anime figures? IMHO the best-of-breed for pure Anime appearances have been three: Yuki (a morph/mesh for Vicky1/2 that you had to pretty much assemble yourself), Kururu (in spite of her horrific bending troubles - one hell of a stand-alone anime figure), and Nanana (for V4 - same assembly required as for Yuki). Aiko 3 can do it with enough work (or the XinXin and BelBel packages), but can't touch the first three. In spite of their asthetic superiority in anime, I'm willing to wager that few-to-none reading this have heard of Yuki, Kururu, or Nanana, let alone know that they're free, letting alone still where to get them. More on that in a second... Now - would a female Apollo do well? Dunno... depends on how flexible the mesh was for morphing, and how well the hyper-ERC rigging that Apollo has does for bending in a female mesh. IMHO, if Poser/D|S used internal skeletal rigging instead of joints, most of this would all be moot point and the focus would be on morphing... but, one can only wish, eh? As far as [i]how[/i] to do it? Netherworks put it best: > Quote - Yup, I'd LOVE to see this too. Apollina or Apollonia or what-have-you. Near the final states get some decent merchants/freebie makers to beta for you.... Then they'll know how to effectively support the figure right from the start. From there you could extend it out a bit and have the female gain concerted support at release time (or shortly after) to deflect or match a "Crazy-Eddies" sale campaign by DAZ or anyone else, spurred by the release of her.

That would be Anton's best shot at getting it off the ground, assuming it had a chance (and if Apollo is any indication, it has one). Renderosity is about the only big store left that he could sell it at (I'm not saying why), but I'm sure they would accept it. The other thing to keep in mind is --be it for sale or for free-- to pay attention to marketing BEYOND the Poser forums. DAZ and Poser's names have a reach way the hell beyond this little incestuous world that we type the occasional line of prose to. I can go to any generic graphics house, say "Apollo", and nearly everyone there would reply with "???" Mention DAZ or Poser, and most would know right away what I'm talking about. No kick against Apollo the mesh, but that's just the way it is. The folks who post here represent only a microscopic fraction of the user base... if you want to overshadow DAZ or Poser's reach, you gotta reach the ones who don't read here, let alone post here. -- As for the rest... > Quote - First, most sentences you end with "I'll keep to myselff", which is always funny since you keep nothing to yourself if you can brag about it,

Whatever, dude - I intend to keep the peace; and two-year-old screenshots on unrelated subjects mean nada here. Suffice it to say that there was more that went on than what's being posted ( I'll kindly not comment on what's missing), and we'll leave it at that, 'kay? -- Sean - Neo10 says it all for me, both technically and otherwise. -- /P

Toon wise... here it is for me at least. I made some money doing commercial work with toons but I used Shazam (the bobble head V2) for both male and female characters. It had a sophisticated and adult look and was morphable enough to make very destinct characters in a single scene. Even Posette and Dork modified for big hands&feet and the bobble head worked. The problem with the specifically toon figures such as The GIRL and HER was that although the expression morphs were superior to those on standard figures the base mesh and they were certainly pretty/sexy, they were too "recognizable" and it was hard to make them my own. Also, I found I almost always needed the figures dressed in variantions of Real World as opposed to Fantasy costume. I was no longer doing that sort of work when AikoToon came out, that figure has great expressions and probably would have been excelent for the job. The other toons although fun are were just not suitable for commercial work where the figures had to not look like "other artist's work".

very interesting thread. Sean i love ya.. and i used to think very highly of you. But... There is alot of just Deadwrongness in your posts in this thread. Things they are 100% completly wrong and seeing you say them makes me sad to be honest.

Neo, that's all well and good, but tell me what they are. We're not a bunch of merchants and buyers? You'd have to be blind not to see that. Anton coldnt make a kick-ass female model? Of course he could. Vickie isnt poly heavy? The numbers are there. So where am I wrong> Just saying I'm 100% wrong isnt giving me any information.

Sean - Neo10 says it all for me, both technically and otherwise.

Your privilege, bud. But I'll say the same thing to you: show me where I'm wrong. Dont just sit there in judgment. And to be blunt, troll, your opening little "joke" just demonstrates that you dont reallty give a rat's ass about what I write. You just want the opportunity to take a cheap shot, like you always have. That's honesty. Deal with it.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - In spite of their asthetic superiority in anime, I'm willing to wager that few-to-none reading this have heard of Yuki, Kururu, or Nanana, let alone know that they're free, letting alone still where to get them. More on that in a second...

Yuki is great and Kururu is a very well put together simple figure that is starting to catch on. There are tons of stuff out there for her and I will be releasing a few freebies for her soon as soon as I get modeling software working again (Damn you microsucks for them updates!)
Another under mentioned figure is Maya Doll (free also). She has her quirks but works well.

Quote - The other thing to keep in mind is --be it for sale or for free-- to pay attention to marketing BEYOND the Poser forums. DAZ and Poser's names have a reach way the hell beyond this little incestuous world that we type the occasional line of prose to. I can go to any generic graphics house, say "Apollo", and nearly everyone there would reply with "???" Mention DAZ or Poser, and most would know right away what I'm talking about.

Beg to differ!

I work with several here in NY as a network consultant. You say Poser and you would get laughed at. Most of the guys/gals there don't take poser all too seriously because it lacks what most of them need, POWER. They could give a flying rats--- about which figure you use or how you use the program. See to them Poser is a child's toy that is played with not as a functional graphics program.

Poserverse The New Home for NYGUY's Freebies

You say Poser and you would get laughed at.

... by people who probably dont even know what it's capable of right now. They probably think we're still in version 4 and no doubt think what's in the "galleries" and marketplaces is the status quo -- which it might be, but, as with everything else, there are those who are pushing the limits and succeeding quite nicely.

But the only way they're ever gonna figure that out is by descending from their ivory towers and seeing for themselves, hands on, not judging it by the T&A fest it might usually be.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote -
But the only way they're ever gonna figure that out is by descending from their ivory towers and seeing for themselves, hands on, not judging it by the T&A fest it might usually be.

From that statement alone:

These render houses/graphics companies look at several things and the best way too do it. Which in truth is not Poser, cause it would take too long to render anything in Poser or Daz Studio, Poser is limited in what functions that actually work.

Most of the companies I have done business with will use Max or Lightwave or an in house software due to the abilities of the programs are not limited to posing a figure and rendering.

Face the facts Poser has very limited abilities and that there are much better pieces of software that can do what Poser does and can do it better and faster.

Poserverse The New Home for NYGUY's Freebies

Quote - >> You say Poser and you would get laughed at.

... by people who probably dont even know what it's capable of right now. They probably think we're still in version 4 and no doubt think what's in the "galleries" and marketplaces is the status quo -- which it might be, but, as with everything else, there are those who are pushing the limits and succeeding quite nicely.

But the only way they're ever gonna figure that out is by descending from their ivory towers and seeing for themselves, hands on, not judging it by the T&A fest it might usually be.

People whom work hard to suceed and bring their quality up to the high end seldom have the time to dig through a humongous pile of T&A, and see an occasional quality piece.

Has nothing to do about 'ivory towers' and everything to do with being smart and taking care of things that are within your responsibilities and sphere of influence.

With the exception of an occasional immature elitist with a little bot of talent and no social skills. (every community has them)

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - Most of the companies I have done business with will use Max or Lightwave or an in house software due to the abilities of the programs are not limited to posing a figure and rendering.

Poser isn't limited to posing and rendering. Last I looked you could animate, rig and morph in it too.
It has node support as well.

But I do agree that it has - compared to the "big guys" - limited capability.
However, it's also comparing apples and oranges when you put Max or Lightwave up against Poser. Not to mention it's grossly unfair.
For one thing, those packages are high end 3D modellingpackages. Poser is not. Nor is D|S. They are both entirely different software programs. If you wanted to compare Max and Lightwave to something similar, then I'd say you need to compare it to something like Hexagon.

And I've seen "Maya creations" that were very obviously V3 pulled into Maya, posed and rendered.
So how is that different from Poser? Just because it was rendered in Maya, doesn't mean it was created - from the ground up - in Maya. Just because someone can afford Maya/Max/Lightwave doesn't mean they are good at it. I could render something in Max (if I had it lol), no problem. Would that mean I'm better than someone using Poser?
And lets face it, about half the people out there who use them and often look down on Poser users, don't actually own legitimate copies of those - very expensive - programs.

It's time people faced a simple truth - any (ANY!) software package is only as good as the person using it. If I can't light a scene, then no amount of capability in Maya/Max is going to improve my image, while at the same time, someone in Poser who gets around the limitations, can produce some absolutely stunningly lit images.

Silke

People whom work hard to suceed and bring their quality up to the high end seldom have the time to dig through a humongous pile of T&A, and see an occasional quality piece.

True. That's why there are a few artists I look for -- many of whom dont even post around here anymore -- because they're the ones who're making this stuff sing like a Met soprano.

Does Poser have limits? Sure it does. Does that mean it's of limited use? Only if you see it that way. Just for myself, the whole "Poser vs real 3D" argument is a fool's engagement. If you're good in Poser, great. If you're good in Maya, wonderful. If you're good in both, huzzah and hurrah.

Moving on...

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

It's a program, not a god.
Same goes for any other program, as well as the people that use them.

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

Quote - It's a program, not a god.
Same goes for any other program, as well as the people that use them.

Hey naw... don't ya be dissing my most fave program! snort or, or.... I'm gonna pulverize yer facets!!!
....................................................[ducking and running]-------------------------------->

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - > Quote - It's a program, not a god.

Same goes for any other program, as well as the people that use them.

Hey naw... don't ya be dissing my most fave program! snort or, or.... I'm gonna pulverize yer facets!!!
....................................................[ducking and running]-------------------------------->

You going to detach my polys?
Send someone around to break my verts?:tt2:

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

Quote - > Quote - > Quote - It's a program, not a god.

Same goes for any other program, as well as the people that use them.

Hey naw... don't ya be dissing my most fave program! snort or, or.... I'm gonna pulverize yer facets!!!
....................................................[ducking and running]-------------------------------->

You going to detach my polys?
Send someone around to break my verts?:tt2:

Well, I dont' mean you personally...
We could tessalate someothing into pieces :lol:

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - ...Well, I dont' mean you personally...
We could tessalate someothing into pieces :lol:

Sounds painfull!!!

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

Quote -
I work with several here in NY as a network consultant. You say Poser and you would get laughed at. Most of the guys/gals there don't take poser all too seriously because it lacks what most of them need, POWER. They could give a flying rats--- about which figure you use or how you use the program. See to them Poser is a child's toy that is played with not as a functional graphics program.

Fair enough opinion-wise, but they have heard of it, yes? I'm willing to bet that many who happily scoff at Poser also have a copy of it lurking on a machine somewhere in their shop. I have yet to walk into a Graphics shop (including the one here) that doesn't ... but that's a tangent that's been wrestled with for a very long time now. :)

The point still stands... the names "Poser" (and to a slightly lesser extent, "DAZ") are out there. They are known. If Apollo's hypothetical female figure wants that kind of success, it has to do the same.

--

Quote - But I'll say the same thing to you: show me where I'm wrong.

He was referring to your analysis of DAZ, I believe.

--

/P

Quote -
But the only way they're ever gonna figure that out is by descending from their ivory towers and seeing for themselves, hands on, not judging it by the T&A fest it might usually be.

From what I've seen and heard, most real pros already have - my first day here @ Big Faceless Corp showed me a cubicle down the way from my office with a couple of Poser 7 magazine-style adverts stuck up to the wall. This is a place that will happily shell out $4k for a head... sure, a head that has a level of detail only slightly higher than Vicky 4's (and a UV Map, Normals Map, and a base texture), but just a head nonetheless. Poser comes in handy sometimes...

Incidentally, "T&A" my dear friend is what sells. I don't even have to look into 3D/CG to prove that one... I have only to point at the last television commercial break, or the nearest magazine rack at the supermarket checkout stand. Every industry is soaked to the gills is sex when it comes to the artwork (even electronics' booths at trade shows, which is kinda creepy, but...)

Nature of the beast, and all that.

Truth is, if the T&A is done well, what's the problem? (Not saying Rendo is the place to find that first-up, but...)

/P

>> "T&A" my dear friend is what sells

Of course it does, Tom. As usual, that's not the point, is it. The point being made is that Poser is pigeon holed because of our localized obsession with T&A, more so than any other 3D program out there, not because of the inherent quality of the program itself.

There is a difference.

>> He was referring to your analysis of DAZ, I believe.

Funny how nobody seemed to reference that -- instead "Sean's 100% wrong in this thread!!!", followed by "Yeah, what he said!!", which covers a lot of ground. Were that analysis the sole thing I'd written, you might have a point. But as it wasnt... well, hate to say it, but get over it, guys. If you're gonna slam me, at least be honest about it.

And I stand by that analysis, because history is my guide. If anyone wishes to dispute that, be my guest. Frankly, it doesnt matter, because DAZ will always have cheerleaders as well as detractors. Big whoop.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Don't make me reach in and separate you two!!!

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
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It's just Tom being a troll. Ignore him. Eventually he'll get bored and move on to something else where he can stir up problems.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - It's just Tom being a troll. Ignore him. Eventually he'll get bored and move on to something else where he can stir up problems.

Kitty peers at Sean, folds her arms and taps her foot.....

No pointing fingers at each other!
....or I'll have to make you kiss and make up!

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - >> "T&A" my dear friend is what sells

Of course it does, Tom. As usual, that's not the point, is it. The point being made is that Poser is pigeon holed because of our localized obsession with T&A, more so than any other 3D program out there, not because of the inherent quality of the program itself.

Err, no.

The reason most 3D apps have a dearth of T&A is because you have to build your own figures in them first - you don't get any pre-provided (you can buy them, or get hold of a free-but-lo-as-hell-poly one, but...)

Aaaaand, in spite of the time and skill required to build a complete figure in most 3d apps, CGTalk (ferinstance) has more than its ration of T&A when it comes to rendered human figures.

Also, consider that Poser is primarily for... humanoid figures. well, duh - it's gonna have a lot of T&A in it.

"our localized obsession" is nothing more "localized" than the rest of the Human Race.

/P

Quote - Penuinisto wrote: *Now - would a female Apollo do well? Dunno... depends on how flexible the mesh was for morphing, and how well the hyper-ERC rigging that Apollo has does for bending in a female mesh.

Tom , You are again mistaken. Apollo does not use any erc for posing. And certainly no "hyper ERC". You have said this before and this has been pointed out before.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Hey thanks Netherworks. I deeply appreciate that.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote -
Apollo does not use any erc for posing. And certainly no "hyper ERC". You have said this before and this has been pointed out before.

If You Say So.

/P

The reason most 3D apps have a dearth of T&A is because you have to build your own figures in them first

LOL -- and? C'mon, you're a bright boy. You can figure it out.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - >> The reason most 3D apps have a dearth of T&A is because you have to build your own figures in them first

LOL -- and? C'mon, you're a bright boy. You can figure it out.

No need to backpedal, Sean... it's not life or death, merely a difference of opinion. Fact still stands that feminine humanoid "T&A" is just as prevalent elsewhere as it is in Poser. It's a Human trait, not a "Poser User" trait. Some places specialize in it (not just R'otica - though this joint's TOS prevents me from posting some examples, or even their URL's), and makes no notice about which 3D app pulled it together. Other places (e.g. CGTalk) show it off (albeit minus the blatant sex) more often than not when it comes to humanoid female-looking figures. I know it's always been a peeve of yours to point at Poserdom and shout "you're obsessed with boobies!" (to paraphrase extremely heavily), and hey - as far as CG nudity in general (not just Poser), I agree with you - we're an industry dominated by straight guys... sorry about that. OTOH, unlike yourself (who understandably doesn't have any liking for it), I'm not bothered by it. I'm also not bothered by male beefcake, esp. if it's done right and executed well - good art is good art. Problem is, relatively few people actually bother with the male figure in that way - be it in Poserdom or elsewhere. That said, there are a few places and folks out there who do specialize in showing off the guys - you just have to know where to look (again, the stupid TOS... though I can speak at least for R'otica when I say that there are more than a handful of seriously powerful artists there who specialize in male-only erotica and pinups). Meanwhile, be it your perception or mine that prevails, we happen to inhabit a rather wonderful medium that gives us both the tools and opportunity to rectify whatever it is we perceive. If you think that nasty ol' Poser is just a tool for hetero male hormones, then erect a site where that kind of imagery doesn't shine through. If I think there's not enough of it about, then I can... oh, wait - I'm already doing something about that - for all genders (including some that can only be imagined). /P

SeanMartin, Penguinisto... cut it out you guys. Seriously. You can fuss with each other by site mail.

I think it is polite to address side comments directly to individuals in a thread only to a point... once it becomes a personal discussion you should switch to site mail... or who knows? Maybe chat would be even more fun :) Still, it is a reasonable expectation of people for them not to insult each other in the public forums. Innuendo is more offensive than direct comments I think BTW. Let's clean up our act before the parents have to get involved!

unlike yourself (who understandably doesn't have any liking for it)

My. How presumptuous.

I think it is polite to address side comments directly to individuals in a thread only to a point.

I happen to agree, but our little troll here needs to be reminded that time has indeed passed and, unlike him, people have indeed changed. And perhaps he needs to be reminded of that in a public way so he's not inflicting it on everyone else... as he did with Anton in another thread with innuendo about Apollo that was written strictly to make Anton look bad.

If Tom wishes to continue acting like a troll -- to anyone -- I have no problem whatsoever calling him on it. Frankly, the little twit seems to want to pick up with the same tedious and childish arguments from, now, two years ago, and it's silly and unnecessary. But I see no reason whatsoever to have myself slammed by someone as apparently clueless (not to mention homophobic) as he has clearly proven himself to be.

Bottom line: some of us have moved on. Pity that cant be said for him... and I say that as directly as need be.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - SeanMartin, Penguinisto... cut it out you guys. Seriously. You can fuss with each other by site mail.

Not fussing from here, promise.

I apologize, Sean, if your attitude towards the nude female figure has changed.

Also, I'm (at least on my end) keeping it away from the personal, and just remaining within the realm of spirited debate. I refuse to stoop to insult and childish name-calling (and have easily done so thus far...)

If Sean wishes to react as he does, that's his prerogative. I can continue to stick to the salient points and ignore the rest.

/P

>> I apologize, Sean, if your attitude towards the nude female figure has changed.

I'll consider it. It all depends on you, bud. Pull another one of your little cheap shot "jokes", and I'll know exactly the spirit in which this "apology" was given.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Dude - check yourself, please. You did have a demonstrable history of it.

That's as far as I'll give attention to the matter.

/P

Actually Tom, there are several male beefcake groups that are very very active on a daily basis. Also there are several sites dedicated to male erotic rendering aside from the email lists.

Quote - If Tom wishes to continue acting like a troll -- to anyone -- I have no problem whatsoever calling him on it.

I agree completely.

Many people don't realize Tom is famous for bragging on other forums about how he loves to come to Renderosity, work peole up into a froth, and then go laugh about it elsewhere. This is exactly what he is doing with Sean, both subtly and blatantly.

Quote - Penguisto wrote: I refuse to stoop to insult and childish name-calling

Tom isn't poking at people for sport equally childish? Not to mention bragging about it elsewhere. The fact that you derive enjoyment from it is a whole other issue.

You regularly post elsewhere about the morons and idots and renderosity. Now that seems like childish insulting to me. Why do you do that? Or even come here aside for the sport?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

>> You did have a demonstrable history of it.

"Did" being the operative word. Just pointing that out.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - Actually Tom, there are several male beefcake groups that are very very active on a daily basis. Also there are several sites dedicated to male erotic rendering aside from the email lists.

Now, that's really refreshing to see you write that (I've said as much before, in this very thread - much thanks for confirming it!).

Personally, I find a pretty good population-proportional balance between male and female nudity, when taken as a whole. We deal primarily in humanoid figures, we end up seeing them naked once in awhile... but for some strange reason, not any more than we would in any other endeavor where humanoid figures are concerned. Which, funny enough, was my entire point.

--

(as for the rest, I disagree w/ you both. It's simple, really... perhaps I'll explain it to you gents sometime, somewhere - perhaps in some forum where one cannot hide behind moderators' skirts and whimper "troll!" as if it were some sort of factual counter-argument ;) ).

I bid you two campers, and this thread, adieu.

/P

No explainations required or desired. Bye.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Comitted to excellence through art.

If Daz had anything to do with Apollo, why do its current figures bend so poorly?

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

>> whimper "troll!"

I knew the "apology" wasnt sincere.

You are a troll, Tom. You always have been, You always will be. As Anton wisely pointed out, you stomp around to the various fora, stir up trouble, make a few pontificating statements, then run away giggling like a six year old. You havent changed your method in years, and you somehow believe that no one has changed either. Then when we have, you settle back into some mocking little "jest", just to comfort yourself that you are indeed still the centre of the universe, that everyone actualy cares what you might have to say outside of the safe and warm confines of RFI or Rotica.

You are a joke, Tom. A sad, pathetic little joke whose avatar is more fitting than you can possibly imagine. Pity that no one but yourself is laughing.

As Anton said, no explanation needed nor desired. Take it to folks who might (somehow) really care what you have to say anymore. I'm sure there must be a few, someplace in the Poser universe. And who knows, they may laugh and giggle along with you. If they do, bully for you. It shows you're not really alone -- and that will be heartening news, wont it.

And I too am out of here. As strange as this may seem to you, O Troll, I actually have more important things to do than worry about whether or not you consider what I have to say as "whimpering". So have at it, you sad, pathetic little man. Be my guest. It;'s probably the only consolation you'll get.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Now that I'm clear headed I'll post what I didn't the night before...[

www.darkedgedesign.com/DownGoesFrasier.wav](http://www.darkedgedesign.com/DownGoesFrasier.wav)

Comitted to excellence through art.

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Wondering why no company is seriously competing with DAZ???

These semi-supportive attitudes crack me up.

Either way. Use what you like. That's all that matters. :)