To that site staff member who makes the final decision on forum posting policies,

For a long time a certain inconsistency in the forum policies has seemed, well "inconsistent". I'm not angry or upset; just struck dumb as to why certain policies exist for some and not for all. This is the crux of what I don't understand...

*Why should the forum rules be different for creators and non-creators?

A creator of a freebie has to post in the free stuff forum first, yet....
....those griping about freebies can post or announce them as often as they like.

A creator of a commercial item can't post an announcement in the forum, yet...
...anyone else can or those wanting to tear it apart can rip at it for pages as often as they like.

A promotion can't be posted for commercial sites by those affiliated, yet....
...anyone else can start the notorious "New at XYZ store!!" threads as often as they like.

***If the Poser forum is for the discussion Poser and is non commercial why is the discussion of sale content allowed at all?

     ...why are commercial price bashing threads allowed?
     ...why are threads allowed that bash merchants and stores?
     ...why are commercial themed lecture threads allowed telling merchants how to run their businesses?
     ....and then why are those merchants, who are also members, allowed to be insulted, flamed, seemingly exempt from protections of the forum TOS?

***If the Poser forum is for the discussion of Poser, and merchants are not to post about sale items, why is anyone but the creator allowed to?

***Any if freebie creator have to post announcements in the Freebie Forum, why are non-creators exempt?

Why is there a separate member rule set for content creators? Is there really any difference who the topic comes from?***

free stuff,non-commercial only.just bloody well say so up front.
OT: Quad core Dell computer for $559
FREE Daz3D - 2 Freebies (until April 25 and 30, 2008)
Anyone know what happened to Lisbeth's store?
Spend 1000's of $$$ and get NO Support!?
I looking for..a lost product
Vittorio 4.2 has been released
Any comments on this new V4 character...?
Alice 2.0
FREE Daz3D - Mediterranean Patio (until April 15, 2008)
New must have from Stonemason is OUT!

*I have no issue with the authors of these above threads or their content specifically; simply using them as recent examples of what content creators can't do, yet anyone else can; seemingly a biased ruleset.

Been meaning to ask for an explanation for some time now. If it is an issue of people being annoyed by commercial posts? Are these annopying to those same people? If people say content creators spam, that Alice thread isn't spam? It was posted all over poserdom.

I just don't undertsand the difference. If some don't want commercial threads, why do we have commercial lecture threads, I won't buy from this xyz threads, now on sale threads, new at xyz threads, my new commercial WIP threads?

Kinda curious why the same reasons you restricted creators from posting such topics doesn't apply to others?

Let me know if you don't mind or whaen you have a moment.

Thanks and regards,
Anton

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

I dunno...I'm guilty of the sin of announcing a freebie myself, but sometimes I don't check my email. I will say in my defense that I've got all your freebies I can get my hands on...;)

Considering the large amount of content needed to even make a Poser render, you'd think it was inevitable the subject would come up. I actually tried making a Poser pic with only 'native' Poser content once (try it sometime, folks..;), and no one really looked at it (but then, it could be it was me...;)

ya got me...maybe the mods will have an answer...

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Geez! There are enough rules here already and you're pushing for more?! Be thankful that we can still post about things at all.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I think what Anton is trying to draw attention to, is that there appears to be different "degrees of freedom" for posting and discussion, between creators and non-creators of content.

Eternal Hobbyist

Well, just to add my opinion. The new rules about posting were supposed to help Renderosity, right?

Well, since those rules have been put in place, I know of seven merchants, who, because they could no longer advertise their products, that have decided to close up their shops and become DAZ merchants, or more specifically, join Artzone and make their stuff exclusive there.

I suppose that helps Renderosity in some way. But I am not clever enough to figure out in what way, lol.

Your specialist military, sci-fi, historical and real world site.

Quote - I think what Anton is trying to draw attention to, is that there appears to be different "degrees of freedom" for posting and discussion, between creators and non-creators of content.

Exactly. But I really would like it explained.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Thank you, Anton. Don't look for answers that make any sense, but thanks for asking anyway.

John

Anton, dude... I can sum it all up in one symbol: $

Same reason why the RMP sells all kinds of things that require you to visit an adult store to purchase a real-life facsimile of, while the galleries would easily make a PG rating by the MPAA.

Kind Reg'ds,

Eh, I doubt that there will be an official explanation.

I think the rules as they stand now and what is and isn't allowed is a result of idiosychracies of the rules. As soon as one rule is established someone finds a loophole or a way to push the envelope. Sometimes people scream about it enough for rendo staff to plug up the resulting loophole, sometimes they don't.

Merchant can't post where people come and hang out, but their fans (or those whom criticize) can. Not letting people rip into products or freebies and offer negative opinions would be... what was it we were arguing about just the other day - censorship.

I've been reading DAZ commons little more often since the artzone/Poser Pro's merger, and I actually like commercial product announcements. They have them labeled as commercial, so if someone doesn't want to look, the can skip them. It seems to be a good way for vendors to get feedback from customers. Around here, people seldom go to other forums... there's just waaay too many of them to keep track of.

I suppose at some point in time people were worriaed about the poser forum turning into a commercial. I dunno. Commercial posts don;t bother me, and I think they may be self levling, where merchants will be somewhat careful about ticking off their customers by being too annoying or overbearing.

Wasn't it the other thread, the one that just got locked, that someone was mentioning, if only the rules were perfect.... Ha!

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - Commercial posts don;t bother me, and I think they may be self levling, where merchants will be somewhat careful about ticking off their customers by being too annoying or overbearing.

Perhaps I misunderstand you. I don't think that is the intended role of the forums, unless otherwise labeled. If it is, that is disturbing on many levels. Least of all it means it is a vehical for abuse masked as "feedback".

"Site policy" for creators is not "censorship" for non creators when in regards to the same types of topic threads. It is either one or the other for all. Members are members IMO.

"Consumer Feedback" in our forums is commercial and is a customer/user initiative. The Poser forum isn't a customer "feedback/service" forum. Is it? At least I hope I am not mistaken.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - > Quote - Commercial posts don;t bother me, and I think they may be self levling, where merchants will be somewhat careful about ticking off their customers by being too annoying or overbearing.

Perhaps I misunderstand you. I don't think that is the intended role of the forums, unless otherwise labeled. If it is, that is disturbing on many levels. Least of all it means it is a vehical for abuse masked as "feedback".

I was thinking in context of commercial posts being allowed in DAZ commons, and should they be allowed on Rendo. They wouldn't bother me one bit if they were allowed here. I'm thinking about that in context of wondering of the rule of no commercial posts in this forum didn't start because of arguments or a group of people being bothered with them way back, before my time on the forums. If it is to be judged by the volume of posts that are edging in more commercial (not a huge amount, but a few), there seems to be interest.

Right now, I'm not sure what exactly the rules are when it comes to the items you brought up.

Quote - "Site policy" for creators is not "censorship" for non creators when in regards to the same types of topic threads. It is either one or the other for all. Members are members IMO.

Yea, I wouldn't think so either, but I can just see a group of members getting up in arms screaming censorship if you didn't let them complain about a product or a freebie.

Quote - "Consumer Feedback" in our forums is commercial and is a customer/user initiative. The Poser forum isn't a customer "feedback/service" forum. Is it? At least I hope I am not mistaken.

I'm not sure what the original intent of poser forum here is, or was. With Poser being so content oriented, it's hard to discuss a whole lot of things poser without introducing the commercial element. Again, comparing to DAZ Commons forum, I kind of like the presence of vendors talking about their products there on occasion. Wouldn't bother me if the rules were changed so customer/vendor product specific interaction was more accepted here.

You are talking about how things are, I was talking about how things could be.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Cool. Thanks.

Hopefully someone will explain the reason for the differing policies.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Good questions Anton. I'm sure there are many of us that wonder the same thing. But, do you really think your going to get an honest answer? The Mods only do what they are told to do and say and follow the guidelines of the PTB and you know the PTB are not going to answer you. ( Not meant as a dig at any Mod, some people like working with thier hands tied behind their back. LOL)

I don't mind the odd freebie alert, though that last one was a bit lame with the need to jump through hoops to get. Now if it had contained a warning about the hassle ,it would have been a far more informative post and benifit the forum. (Don't take that the wrong way Acadia) The moving / censorship of freebie posts by the creator in this forum was a bad move.

The commercial threads is a fine line.

I don't find anything wrong with users discussing commercial products, good or bad. How else can the community know if the products or merchants are any good or problematic. But we don't need the spam. A fine line. With the new merchant rules that line got wider and easier to moderate but at a big loss to the community. So the only way to know what's going on with these other merchants is by user posts. Hmmm, back to that fine line now. LOL.

Conniekat8, your a merchant now so I can see why you would think that tagged commercial threads would be a good thing. But as you stated, you were not around when it was allowed. It was a nightmare to get any poser related questions answered. You use the Daz commons as an example and so will I.

The Daz common forum is a commercial spam and glorifed popularity posting. That and the flame war floor room for DS vs Poser and Daz forum vs Art Zone. Don't bother posting a real question there unless your one of the popular and that's not a guarentee, because it gets burried so fast from the other 3 types of post mentioned.

This forum was getting so bad from all this spam that even when asking for help with something, merchants would jump in and spam you with how you wouldn't be having these problems if you bought thier products. It was a nighmare. Any question posts were getting burried and lost so fast that it was a friggin lottery trying to get help.

Merchants were going as far as starting infomercials. Getting some friend to start a thread and then do that stupid infomercial routine.

No, that, "no commercial post," rule change was one of the best things that happened for this forum and we don't need it back. Yes I think the PTB went overboard with the last bit of rules, so we need a few loopholes to balance the scales a bit. Over all, I think the forum is fine.

Le't not prod that sleeping dog to much because you know ,from past experience, that it goes way overboard when wakened..

This is not an official answer, but it is an answer from my point of view. I will point the Admin to this thread, though.

There is a difference between a content creator (regardless if it's a free item or a for pay item) posting in the forum and a member stating anything (whether it's a simple post, a question, a complaint, or a "hey, look at this cool thing") about a product. The simple fact of the matter is, people are going to ask questions about products and freebies. People are going to complain about products and freebies. People are going to marvel at them. If we did away with all commercial posting, technically we wouldn't even be able to discuss Poser, because it's a for-pay item sold by a different company (regardless of whether or not we have it in our MP).

I remember, years ago, when the Developer's forum was more populated. You could go in there and see really good discussions on modelling, rigging, and sometimes even animation if you timed yourself right. It's rare that anyone discusses the creation of a product (for sale or not) here anymore, and I'm sure there are several different reasons, one being that if it's going to be for sale, ya can't post about it here. It's not fair for one vendor to have a 20 page sneaky advert while others can't even post "Hey, look, I have this here!!"

In essence, it just wouldn't make logical sense to penalize members for asking questions, ragging on product (within reason. Not a fan of the whole Name 'n Shame idea...if it doesn't work, that's one thing, but if you just want to rag on a merchant, take it elsewhere.) or even announcing that they think something is cool.

sigh However, I'll point Admin to this thread.

Jeni

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

I understand your reasoning, Jen, but I can also see Anton's point. It is a bit of a double standard, and it certainly wouldnt stop the more unscrupulous merchant from saying to one of his friends, "Hey, do me a favour -- post something about my new product available at X!" and so friend does, under the guise of "Wow, check this out!" -- and before long you still have a sneaky advert that came, circuitously, from the creator.

I dont like the commercial threads either, but to stop them like this seems more arbitrary than anything else.

Just my 0.02 -- which is available now for $19.95 at... oh wait. Sorry about that.

:-)

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - Cool. Thanks.

Hopefully someone will explain the reason for the differing policies.

Don't hold your breath Anton!

Quote - I understand your reasoning, Jen, but I can also see Anton's point. It is a bit of a double standard, and it certainly wouldnt stop the more unscrupulous merchant from saying to one of his friends, "Hey, do me a favour -- post something about my new product available at X!" and so friend does, under the guise of "Wow, check this out!" -- and before long you still have a sneaky advert that came, circuitously, from the creator.

I dont like the commercial threads either, but to stop them like this seems more arbitrary than anything else.

Just my 0.02 -- which is available now for $19.95 at... oh wait. Sorry about that.

:-)

No, it doesn't keep unscrupulous merchants from getting their buddies to ask questions and or make "this is cool!!" posts about their products. We keep our eyes out for those posts, and they tend to follow a pattern. I'm pretty sure that some folk think we're complete morons and that they're getting away with it. Heck, that goes for any TOS compliance/violation.

However, again, I'm going to ask, where do we draw the line? If a member comes in and asks "Hey, where can I get a cool-looking pirate ship for Poser?", should we not allow members to post links to locate said item? Or, if a merchant has a python script and/or other tool in the MP, and has questions, sure, the most logical place to ask would be to email the merchant...but, logic tells me that if the product has been there a while, there are a few people that may have it and may actually have a few hints and tips that the merchant themselves may not even have thought of. Heck, there are regular models that some people have a hard time with.

For example, Aery Soul doesn't support DAZ|Studio...their prerogative. There are people in the community that can fix broken models and their morphs. However, a new user might not know this. So, noticing that their Litsure hair (for instance) is used in a render by someone using D|S, they ask in the D|S forum how it works. After a few people hem and haw at how they really should know how to rig for D|S (really? Every merchant should know every possible program an end-user might use the figure in??), someone answers with the fix, which, btw, is:

"Open the .pz2 files found in the "Liltsure-Mrphs" folder. Do a search for the phrase "valueParm" and change all instances of it to "targetGeom." "

Now, if the original questioner wouldn't have been able to mention and/or link to the product in question, they'd still be confused as hell, and probably disenchanted with the whole thing.

Anyway, like I said, I've brought it to Admin attention, but I'm not going to promise that there will be stricter changes. I for one hope not. I personally don't like the latest change, however, I understand the need for it. There's a difference between being open and hospitable and being taken advantage of.

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Slightly longer answer... policies get patched onto policies which in turn are latched onto other policies, in the vain hope that most folks are pleased, yet previous stuff isn't disturbed.

In programming, we call it Cruft - basically crap that you can't get rid of lest people complain (or something breaks), yet people are complaining about it now (and there's breakage).

The only real cure is to run through and re-work 'em all... but I don't think that'll happen until it starts affecting the bottom line. It also tends to disrupt.

Folks will complain regardless. We could hand out $20 in cash to everyone here (In their nation's denomination), and we'd get complaints that the US dollar isn't worth what it used to be, and could we give them what $20 was worth when they joined?

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - Folks will complain regardless. We could hand out $20 in cash to everyone here (In their nation's denomination), and we'd get complaints that the US dollar isn't worth what it used to be, and could we give them what $20 was worth when they joined?

LOL. So true.

I want mine in Euros

Jeff

Renderosity Senior Moderator

Hablo español

Ich spreche Deutsch

Je parle français

Mi parolas Esperanton. Ĉu vi?

Quote - Every merchant should know every possible program an end-user might use the figure in??)

Err, there's only two apps to deal with, not forty jillion.

To answer your question? They should if they care ab't maximizing their sales, but they're under no actual obligation to. I would personally answer someone asking with "well, if the seller doesn't support your environment, that's his/her fault... next time buy from someone who does". Do that often enough, and market pressure takes over.

Quote - Anyway, like I said, I've brought it to Admin attention, but I'm not going to promise that there will be stricter changes. I for one hope not.

Me Neither - again, like in programming, you only get more Cruft.

Management isn't exactly known for saying "okay - let's spend a lot of time on this so we do it right" unless it becomes glaringly obvious that there's no other choice.

*Quote - "I think what Anton is trying to draw attention to, is that there appears to be different "degrees of freedom" for posting and discussion, between creators and non-creators of content."

*I think a big part of the inconsistencies is a result of the variableness over the last years when the mods and admins cracked down hard, then lightened up a bit, back and forth.

If you hold a handfull of sand to tightly you end up with a empty hand.

Untill the forum/site rules are in benifit of members and not designed as forum/site/MP behavior controls this oscollation will continue. Spike started this pattern of conservative leanings that years latter wont be stabalized untill a new cycle of admins (not drawen from the existing stock) takes over the site. This is NOT an attact of the existing admins and mods. It's just that THEY were selected under the 'Spike' doctrine.

(geo shrugs shoulders)

g Pengy, welcome to the Poser market. It's driven more by ADD-style "ooh, Shiney!" than actual need or use. ;) Just ask around at how many people have tried to buy something they already have ;)

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - g Pengy, welcome to the Poser market. It's driven more by ADD-style "ooh, Shiney!" than actual need or use. ;) Just ask around at how many people have tried to buy something they already have ;)

Trust me - if I could capture some of that spirit and release it into the markets I work in? Holy shit - I'd be able to BUY Bill Gates as my personal bitch/slave.

IMHO, there's only so many suckers about. As the market expands (it is), the merchies are going to be in for a bit of a shock when the majority of new buyers actually start acting like real customers, and not just forum buddies... it'll be an interesting show, to say the least.

Hmmm I rarely comment on these type of threads but this one
so far seems very civil

I am a merchant and tend to agree with jenk About the impracticality
of a broad based restriction on mentioning commercial product by every one
Praising or disparaging.

if i promote My product in the general Forum there is no doubt
personally I have a potential financial gain from doing so.

but it is a tough grey area when one's product is mentioned by others
in whatever context.

My website

YouTube Channel

Quote - Slightly longer answer... policies get patched onto policies which in turn are latched onto other policies, in the vain hope that most folks are pleased, yet previous stuff isn't disturbed.

In programming, we call it Cruft - basically crap that you can't get rid of lest people complain (or something breaks), yet people are complaining about it now (and there's breakage).

The only real cure is to run through and re-work 'em all... but I don't think that'll happen until it starts affecting the bottom line. It also tends to disrupt.

That's what I was thinking, the idiosynchratic rules as they stand now are very likely the result of their creation process.

Comparing DAZ Commons and Rendo's Poser forum... They're little different from one another, and I like them both.

I really do wish there were fewer foums here on Rendo. I tend to neglect the less busy ones, even if I have interest in the topics.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - Folks will complain regardless. We could hand out $20 in cash to everyone here (In their nation's denomination), and we'd get complaints that the US dollar isn't worth what it used to be, and could we give them what $20 was worth when they joined?

Only 20 Dollars... so little, you big bad money making commercial entity ........

[ducking and running------------------>] j/k

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - g Pengy, welcome to the Poser market. It's driven more by ADD-style "ooh, Shiney!" than actual need or use. ;) Just ask around at how many people have tried to buy something they already have ;)

Who, me? That doesn't happen to me!

well, not today....

......yet... :blink:

[proud owner of 5 copies of Poser 6 just because it was on sale for 2.99 - just in case..... case of what?]

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - Hmmm I rarely comment on these type of threads but this one
so far seems very civil.

To be quite honest, most of the threads lately that would have, in recent years, been big hot-button threads have been delightfully civil. Personally, I appreciate it. Especially now that I have to actually walk away from the computer and go into the Big Scary Outside World™ :lol: Also known as W*rk :lol:

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

I'm not sure this would necessarily be a "hotbutton" issue, except to the merchants. I know the restricting of postings in the "Marketplace Showcase" to rendo-only products miffed a few people, but I can't say I didn't expect it.

Perhaps a review and consolidation of the current rules would benefit everyone, not just merchants or consumers.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day

Quote - Hmmm I rarely comment on these type of threads but this one
so far seems very civil

I am a merchant and tend to agree with jenk About the impracticality
of a broad based restriction on mentioning commercial product by every one
Praising or disparaging.

if i promote My product in the general Forum there is no doubt
personally I have a potential financial gain from doing so.

but it is a tough grey area when one's product is mentioned by others
in whatever context.

We agree. Personally, I wouldn't like the idea of forbidding anyone from talking about Poser-related commercial products in the forum. IMO, that goes to the very core of what this forum is for, at least in part. After all, you see the occasional total-newbie who asks where they can get V4.

I'm not speaking officially, either -- this is just my personal opinion. But I believe that the mods/admins here have achieved a near-balance now........a near-balance between an "infomercial forum": and a total ban on discussing anything that's sold anywhere. At least the admins have come about as close as is humanly possible when walking the tightrope stretched between the conflicting demands which come from different camps of users & members -- different camps who don't agree among themselves about what should or what shouldn't be allowed under forum posting policy.

BTW - Poser itself is a commercial product. It would be a tough sell to tell people that Poser couldn't be discussed in the Poser forum for that reason. And Poser-related products.......such as -- say -- Wardrobe Wizard.........should be freely open for discussion in here, too. IMO.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Did you notice that work is also a four letter word????

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - Did you notice that work is also a four letter word????

Except I never hear "work". I always hear "Work-Work-Work!!!!!" So I've come to the conclusion that it's a 12-letter word.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

***If the Poser forum is for the discussion of Poser, and merchants are not to post about sale items, why is anyone but the creator allowed to?

***To add to it, why in the world are all these off topic threads allowed? At times there are more ot threads here then poser related ones. If were going to add all kinds of rules, can we also get a rule that stops ot threads as well?

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Why don't we institute a rule to stop all left-handed people from posting in here? Short people, too. Or people over age 65 or under age 25.

In fact, why don't I run the forum and make all of the decisions about how everything should be done? At least in that way we would all know that everything in here would be 100% fair & above board -- the way that it should be. When everyone does what I say..........and doesn't irritate me in the process -- now that's the proper definition of "fair". Always has been, always will be.

I like a certain amount of OT. It can, of course, be overdone. But it's sort of nice to be able to discuss the weather as well as shadow cam settings and texture resolutions. If that's all, then there's another forum called "Poser Technical". Perfect for such: and with no "community-building" type conversations about cats or earthquakes.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

BTW - IMO (don't you just love internet shorthand?) -- it's the OT stuff that draws a lot of the interest in a forum. Not all -- but a lot. Without it, a certain semi-real-life feel goes away.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - ...At least in that way we would all know that everything in here would be 100% fair & above board -- the way that it should be...

But you would have to change your screen name to Pericles ('The Incorruptible'). :)

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

My own opinion (probably worth about 1/4 of a cent) is that it all comes down to the forums structure. Having a forum simply called Poser is far to general and should be treated or designed as a Poser runtime. An example could be having the main heading Poser then all of the subheadings General Poser Q & A(for all Poser questions from lighting to Posers nodes) then maybe Merchants Place(where all merchants free or pay can profile all new stuff) then Products Q & A( where questions on free or pay items are taken care of and could also handle the complaints of products or praise or even suggestions for future releases) again as I said this is just my extremely limited opinion and I maybe missing the target completely.

Agree with Conniekat. After reading the DAZ commons for a while, their
method seems the simplest for both sides. Throw it all together but require a
[COMMERCIAL] notation on posts by creators.

My python page
My ShareCG freebies

Quote - But you would have to change your screen name to Pericles ('The Incorruptible'). :)

"The Incorruptible".........I like it...........

BTW -- didn't they publicly denounce/condemn Pericles, or something like that? :biggrin:

Something To Do At 3:00AM

maybee we could have commercial,freebie and OT flag like the nudity flag on posts and people could choose on their settings which post to be invisible
This way we could have all posts in just one forum...

My FreeStuff

Quote - BTW -- didn't they publicly denounce/condemn Pericles, or something like that? :biggrin:

Yeah. He was labelled as "the squill headed God Almighty" by Cratinus. Apparently there were some questions about the man's actual state of incorruptibility...

Friends don't let friends use booleans.

Quote - "BTW -- didn't they publicly denounce/condemn Pericles, or something like that? "

Yeah. He was labelled as "the squill headed God Almighty" by Cratinus. Apparently there were some questions about the man's actual state of incorruptibility...

Pericles! That's right! I thought it was Testicles. My bad.

Jen-X said, "I'm pretty sure that some folk think we're complete morons and that they're getting away with it. "

You mean you AREN'T????? ROFLMAO!!!!

as long as they're getting rid of off-site merchant posts, IMVHO they should also get rid of
all the OT posts that get dumped here that have absolutely nothing to do with poser.

open an OT forum instead. if it's just for the harmless OT topix we see here now, and no
politics/religion/kiddie porn, it shouldn't be an enforcement problem like it was in the old days.

Quote -
open an OT forum instead.

Why, they could even call it something like "Complaint and Debate"... snork.

(Sorry, man - I simply had to.)

R'sity has had OT forums and R'sity has toasted them. What makes you think it will work this time?

Quote - R'sity has had OT forums and R'sity has toasted them.

Heh - yeah, we know. :)

Heh... But Complaint and Debate could be fun...

Or maybe a Virtual Tavern?

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day

What good are all theese separate forums when most people end up congregating in one or two of them????
I like busy bustling forums, even if there are OT posts and commercial posts and people arguing in one thread and people being helpful in a thread next door and whatever else happens around forums.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Virtual Taverns have been here and axed a couple of times that I remember also.

Quote - Virtual Taverns have been here and axed a couple of times that I remember also.

:lol: too many brawls?

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Here I was, thinking that virtual libations might help some of the folks around here get the apparently very real sticks out.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day

Hope that was not meant at me for pointing out what has been done and for reasons that only the PTB have got rid of it.

Just my two cents from years of being a member here. Let's see... "Joined 23 Mar 2000" should be worth something, right?

Anyway, the "new" rules seem to be an extension of the existing rules, which are:

You CAN NOT create a new thread talking about your own product, in any forum other than the Product Showcase Forum. This is called a "commercial posting".
The new rules state you can't post a message about your own products in outside stores.

1a) Talking about your own product, even answering someone's question is considered bad form and some of the mods will delete the posting as being "commercial".
As an example, if someone asks "Where can I get a cool X?" and you reply, "Well, I have a X in my store!", a mod may delete it and give you a warning. (This happened to me a few times, even when my answer was to go to my marketplace here at Renderosity. As an aside, I wonder if my "verbal warnings" ever expire or if they're part of my permanent record!)

The forums have ALWAYS allowed people to say "Check out this cool X made by someone else". This is not a commercial posting, but a "informing the greater community of a new item that's available" posting.

So, while Stonemason can't announce his new product here at Renderosity (using him as a recent example), it is perfectly within the rules for other people to announce it and even post links to it over at DAZ.

Personally, I think this goes against the spirit of both the "no advertising" rule and the "no links to outside stores" rules, but that's just me. If the rule is "no advertising", then people shouldn't be allowed to post links to product. Although the creator of the product isn't promoting his own item, he's certainly getting attention and advertising... and probably a bunch of new sales.

And if the rule is "no links to outside stores", then ALL links, no matter who posts them should be removed... including links to DAZ and Smith Micro.

The same is true for free items: you can make a freebie and announce your creation in the Freebie Forum. If you post your message in the Poser Forum, someone may complain about the "spam" message you posted.
Yet people are free to post a "look at this cool freebie made by artist X" message without it being considered "spam". Like product announcements, isn't this still advertising?

I've wondered why self-promotion is "bad" advertising, but getting other people to promote your items is acceptable. Again, no matter who creates the message thread, the link to your item is still getting posted in the forums.

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

No, just in general... Lots of people in all the Forums are way too uptight.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day

Had to make sure, my tounge was getting sore from bitting it untill I knew for sure. LOL.

I was surprised the Stonemason thread was allowed.. It read as a commercial more than a heads up. I have seen that a little more around here, the little I've be around lately. I guess it's not what is promoted but how or who post it?

Now I don't mind free Items posted here. It's part of giving back to the community. I don't like having to post in just the freebie forum and have everyone DL it just because they DL everything. My last freebie was my Dynamic Jersey dress,( long before the MP one and different, think hockey jersey) I posted it here so only the ones that really wanted it and could use it in Poser could IM me for it. Can't do that now so I don't bother anymore with freebies, no great loss, just special requests when I have time.

Things may change, some want another Daz forum here to advertise, some of us are here because it's not that way, I've been around for many years now and have seen it change as often as the tides. I won't be surprised to see another one or two or three or.........LOL.

Edited for typing errors, No feeling in half of one hand and learning how to type all over again. LOL.

I don't get why it's such a bad thing for a creator of an item to post a link to it here within the forums of a site that engages in sales of poser content??????
Also, I find it rather unrealistic to have a hobby that heavily depends on content from other commercial sources, use a forum from one of the commercial sites, and then resent that products are being advertised.

It's a bit like walking into a department store during christmas time, walking by a cosmetics counter and getting a whiff of fragrance, and then getting all upset that they're advertising fragrance where it's being sold.

Is that like some sort of a lack of common sense?

I'm not sure what the exact rule reads. no advertizing or no external links, or no product promotions or what not. I agree about what BlackSpartan is saying about uptightness.

One thing that I did notice is that many people whom are most vocal in the forums and want to drive the diorection of the site don't seem to be the ones whom are spending money here. At least they are not the majority. So I suppose many forumites don't participate in or even resent the commercial aspect of it... but yet choose to come to a commercial site to talk about their hobby. A site and forum which is provided to them at the cost of those whom do buy stuff. If there wasn't a commercial component to it, they wouldn't have a place to come to!!! But yet somehow the commercial aspect of it gets villified. Sheesh!
My brain is going to get a divide by zero (common sense) error here!

Don't advertize your commercial product, Don't restrict commercial use of your freebies, don't advertize someone else's commercial work, talking about your upcoming marketplace piece or god forbid a thread turining into a marketplace product WIP is bad form; don't get excited about a commercial release and post a link to it....

Why don't people whom hate commercial aspect of it get themselves a private commercial free bulletin board. Maybe the cost, time and efforts of keeping one up will be a rude awakening. But then again, I see some of the same people whom complain about the commercial aspect of it saying they want to be able to use freebies around here to make a few bucks for themselves, and resent the effort of having to keep track of copyrights. What is that? Jealousy? Envy? Case give it to memememe because if someone else got it I should have it tooo, and screw whomever I take advantage of in the process?

Sure, the rules get all mangled in a bass ackwards manner and end up contradicting one another when we hap-hazardly try to accomodate whomever is screaming the loudest at the moment... and when we try to accomodate people's nonsensical emotional reactions.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - I was surprised the Stonemason thread was allowed.. It read as a commercial more than a heads up. I have seen that a little more around here, the little I've be around lately. I guess it's not what is promoted but how or who post it?

So, of you love particular creators work and are excited about a product that just came out, you can't post about it?
You can only post about a product when you want to have a negative rant about it?
Or, you can post about programs and utilities (Wardrobe Wizard, crossdresser, Faceshop Pro etc etc...) but not about content?

So, next time I see a piece I really love and want to strike up a conversation about it, I better post 'gosh, did you see such and such product' it's a big pile of crap! Because, hey, saying something positive about a piece of content is this terrible commercial advertizing plug. Criticizing, biatching and moaning about everything, that's just business as usual.

sigh some major cases of commerce-phobia around here. I mean look around your screens people, this is a commercial site. If you want to be in a commerce/commercial free environment, this or any other place engaged in sales of content is not a kind of a place that is likely to fulfill your desire for commercial free environment, and it's pretty unrealistic to have that expectation. Like walking into a mall, and like OMG, getting mad that there are product advertizing kiosks in the food court. I wanna eat without a commercial in my face... Well, then don't go to a mall food court to have lunch!!!!! sigh

LOL, I better go to sleep.... I don't think this kind of an attitude is ever going to make a lot of sense to me.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

I know!!!!! :m_laugh:

Next time when I really like a product, I'll make a banner for it, and put a link to it in my sig..... cuz, if I talk about it outright, I may get in trouble. If I put it in the sig, with my post count, it'll get a lot more exposure anyway.
Cuz, that magic line that separates the sig from the actual post is the MAJOR commercials allowed vs. Commercials definately not allowed barrier.

**Between sig lines, top bar and sidebar ads, forums here are full of advertizing!
**But god forbid we actually have a thread talking about a product or giving an occasional instruction about it, or talks about the creation process and shows a few pics... now, that's baaaaad! [insert wagging finger emoticon here] Baaad baaaaad commercial if a vendor talks about their own product in the space between a post header and a sig line. :m_confused2:

I think banging my head against the wall will be much more productive activity then trying to make sense out of commerce-phobia around here. If it's to the right of my screen, it's okay, if it's at the top, it;s okay, if it's below a dotted line, it's okay, if it's above the dashed line and below the dotted line to the right of the little picture, then it's not fine, and if you write it in a small print on a postage stamp....

Is it me or has the whole world gone crazy? - Don't answer that!
:m_lecture:
:m_hide:

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

I am serious about this.

My questions are not about OT threads, asking questions, tutorials, etc.

Everyone here knows exactly the type of threads I am referring to, which are being allowed. And I provided links to such examples initially. Many of the threads, that are being allowed, are not discussion. They are advert announcements. And many seem to be slipping through the cracks.

Many people don't mind biased rules that don't apply to them, even if they apply to someone else.

We are all members. Content creators are't sub-members. There is no difference between a promotion post by a creator versus a fan. A thread is a thread. A post is a post.

Here was the initial question rephrased:

***Why are there separate forum rules for members that are content creators, when the exact same types of posts, that the rules are wanting to prevent, are allowed by anyone else?

JenX, which staff member is that person who makes these final decisions?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

I think someone needs a Midol.

I was agreeing with the valid points that JHoagland was saying, but since you quoted me I'll take it that your attack is at me.

First, I doubt you have spent what I have here in the MP. Sorry to burst your bubble but It takes a rare talen for me to be jealous about anything and it is so rare that I DL any freebie that I don't give a flying ( insert any 4letter word here or rod).

Second a post that list everything in a product in the original post seems more an advert than a heads up. I'm sure most like me like the heads up posts. Sometimes the News letters are late or not at all. Same as the freebie post like what Acadia posts. They are quick, short and to the point.

Third, I don't go around and complain about others creations. I did show what that Daz Dragon loked like in Poser so other Poser users could see what it really looked like and not the BS that Daz marketing was giving, BTW they change the promo wording after that, but, I also showed what it looked like in an app that could take advantage of it. That part was ignored by many including Daz head honchos, OH well. Still outside of that one instance, I don't rip anyones stuff.

Fourth. "Why don't people whom hate commercial aspect of it get themselves a private commercial free bulletin board."

I could say the same thing, " why don't people whom want commercial aspect of it get themselves a bulletin board."
Oh wait , they do have one, the Merchants Product forum. Yes I know rules have been changed but it's a good place to start with.

Lastly, "Sure, the rules get all mangled in a bass ackwards manner and end up contradicting one another when we hap-hazardly try to accomodate whomever is screaming the loudest at the moment... "

Aaah, wouldn't that be you? Assumptions, accusations, insults and major rant?

I had thought I was being quite civil with my posts without malice to anyone and was rewarded with insults. I'll try not to make that mistake again.

That brings up a good point. The issue is about posting, not reading. People can skip over anything they want, of course. But does it matter who the author is when deciding who can post and who can't?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Attached Link: Scroll to the bottom to see the admin.

> Quote - > > JenX, which staff member is that person who makes these final decisions?

There is no one staff member. All policy changes are discussed and decided by our Admin. Who would be Stacey, Jenifer, Debbie, Karen, and Jani.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Note: This is not me being facetious, this is me before coffee....

A looooooooooong time ago (long ago enough that I remember being so frustrated with Poser that I'd uninstall it on at least a weekly basis), when I was but a newb, the forum was rampant with advertisement. We members (since you're not born a moderator, you volunteer for this job after you let go of your last shred of sanity) complained, and the rule was set...No advertising in the Poser forum or gallery. (And the masses cried "w00t!!" j/k) In my tenure as a moderator, I've moved over 100 posts...whether to the Marketplace forum, the Contest Announcement forum, Marketplace Customer Service, or even the Copyright forum. Some do it by accident, some do it on purpose.
As for OT posts....geez, guys, lighten up. Sure, there's a point in time when we need to curb the OTness, but, if you look at the forum, 95% of the posts here are 100% poser related AND haven't been hijacked yet. We all NEED a little OT in our life once in a while to get out of our rut, loosen up a bit, and maybe, I don't know, get to know one another!

And, now, I go get my coffee. From Dunkin Donuts, because my carafe is broken sniffle tear

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

>> Second a post that list everything in a product in the original post seems more an advert than a heads up. I'm sure most like me like the heads up posts.

But that's not the point. The point is who gets to write the heads up post. If all I'm saying in a post is "Hey, I have a new product out available at ___________. Check it out!", how would that be so very different from Anton writing, "Hey, Sean has a new product available at ____________. Check it out!"? That's the issue here.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

There's also a difference between "Hey, X has a new product available at ____" and "HOMG, did you SEE that new (insert vendor name here) character/prop/texture/light/etc???? How does he/she/they do that????"

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

OK, I'm another trying to get enough Coffee into me before I have to dig myself out of a big snow drift just to get to the snow blower. Beware of bad mood and or typing errors. LOL.

SwanMartin, I'm going to guess that most people here are smart enough to know the difference between a quick heads up post about something from a marketing attempt. Many are about updates that that is the only way we find out about them. Others are about something that the community has been waiting for like Poser SR's, V4's, the winning lottery numbers that I will let you have, for a price.

Now the way you present your last point. There is no difference. That sounds like friends promoting friends just as a loophole because they can. There's that gray area raising it's head again. I'm glad I'm not a Mod, There is a feel to how things are writen.

I understand what Anton was asking. I also understand why those that have not been here as long as many of us have and never saw what it was like. Then there are those that just want another way to promote themselves.

I noticed in the Vue forum they have a stickied product promotion thread. I never had a chance to look into it but that might be a solution here. ust a thought.

Well, that snow drift isn't going away by itself so I will catch you all later if it doesn't kill me.

I don't mean to get off on a rant here....

No, wait, yes I do.

I'm looking at the thread, and I'm a bit confused.

If we, the Merchants place an obviously commercial thread for a new product, then we should put it in a place that no one in their right minds would go(the same layer of Heck as TV commercials), but if my little friend Destiny(not a real person) posts the same thread anywhere else, that's fine.

Do I have this right?

What's to stop people from hiring the Mongol Hordes of Advertising to drop in and go nuts?

But, if I post something not available at the RMP, I get deleted for that, too.

The idea therefore becomes that there must not be a world outside Renderosity, or that commercialism doesn't exist beyond the Marketplace forum/gallery.

I don't exist in a vaccuum, and neither do the rest of you. Everything we do is credited, so our galleries become an advertisement for the things we use.

Our entire lives in western society are commercials, from the cologne Anton wears, to the jeans Conniekat's wearing, the restaraunt Jen eats at, to the car I drive. If we all are using something, someone else will too, because of it.

Shall we remove all those things from the face of Renderosity as well?

So what happens if I post an image in my gallery that consists of nothing but things I've made myself, and put on-sale at... Say 3DArena?

Shall I not credit it?

For the record, I do have items onsale, but not at 3DA. Shawn was convienient, and most of the Poserverse has heard of 3DA, at the very least. Safe for an example.

Most of those items await onsale dates here, as well.

I won't mention which ones, nor where they might be found. A dilligent search would turn them up easily.

However, it seems to me that a [commercial] tag would make more sense than banishing us to Heck(and obscurity) for being a vendor.

I'm gonna get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day.

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day

Now that was a commercial hidden in a rant that is trying to blow things out of proportion.

Quote -
sigh some major cases of commerce-phobia around here.

I wouldn't say that exactly... I mean, when someone asks about finding this or that item or prop, the barrage of replies usually don't include freebies, but a horde of merchies and friends of merchies pointing to for-sale items. More like commerciophilia at times...

Now, this is not to say that I agree or disagree with what the PTB are trying to do. I just wish it were a little less complex.

In all fairness, the original rule was around because you couldn't ask a question or post a tip without it being drowned out of the forum with commercial posts. That's why we made the MP forum in the first place. Well, that was before I came on staff, but still.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - There's also a difference between "Hey, X has a new product available at ____" and "HOMG, did you SEE that new (insert vendor name here) character/prop/texture/light/etc???? How does he/she/they do that????"

Heh - only about as different as someone declaring that forty angels can dance on the head of a pin he built, and someone else declaring that he just saw forty-two do it on his buddy's product, but wants to know how. ;)

Well, we can always assume that every poster has ulterior motives and try to stifle everyone's posting abilities, or we can REMAIN somewhat free with the posting.
Sorry, but like I said before, if we get rid of any and all potentially commercial posts, soon we wont' be able to even link to Poser, because it's a for-purchase item. So, why don't we use some common sense here, folks? Or is it that time of the year that we have to be offended at every little thing someone else does, simply for the sake of argument? If it is, you're gonna have to let me mark it on my calendar next year...and I'll take a vacation, LOL.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - In all fairness, the original rule was around because you couldn't ask a question or post a tip without it being drowned out of the forum with commercial posts. That's why we made the MP forum in the first place. Well, that was before I came on staff, but still.

Oh, I know - I saw it contort itself into its current mess a long-arsed time ago. Road To Hell Pavement and all that.

Personally, there is no easy solution - we all know that.

The DAZ Commons forum was named "The Commons" for a reason. Just like The Commons in any college, one could hang out, discuss anything, post handbills, protest whatever... and, well, whatever comes to mind. Just don't expect anything serious out of anything you do in there. Tech questions had their own home. WIP discussion had its own home. And etc.

Problem is, when you omit a forum topic that handles common bits and bobs, the chit-chat, and the "hey - I built this! go take a peek and maybe spend a little on it!" posts? Well, you get what we have here - folks settling in to discuss anything but Poser in the Poser forum. Sucks but true. And, it ends up spawning complex and convoluted rules, or rules that make no sense (like the one Anton rails against right now).

All that said, Renderosity has a conundrum on its hands - they're a commercial site, first and foremost. They have their bottom line to protect. But... they also want to be a community, so that have to present that facade as well. Normally, it's pretty easy to do both, but the PTB wanted to do it with one hand tied behind its collective back by omitting a common gathering area. So... you get what we have now.

I know why they did it. They wanted to avoid having to do the dirty work of keeping the blood and muck out of an area that can get boisterous at times... after all, on one hand they can have a semi-common area to chit-chat, but on the other they can point to the lack of one as justification to lock any thread that gets out-of-hand.

I like the Renderotica (and the near-comatose PoserPros) fora rules better: If it gets out of hand, move it to the flame bucket forum and be done with it. This means you only have to lock and/or delete the really nasty/libelous/illegal stuff, letting the membership take on some responsibility to police themselves. Of course, neither one are nearly as obsessed with a shiny corporate image, no?

Quote - So, why don't we use some common sense here, folks? Or is it that time of the year that we have to be offended at every little thing someone else does, simply for the sake of argument?

Heh - I think you're missing what I'm getting at. I'm not really arguing for or against - I'm just sounding out thoughts on why it came to pass. I know the how, who, and what, and where... it's the 'why' that niggles me.

Whatever you say, Tom. I understand where you AND Anton are coming from. I do. However, it's from a place that twisted the rules into what it's not. Apparently, from what I'm reading, you guys don't think that we seem to care about merchants getting around the no commercial thing by getting buddies or even hiring people to do it....trust me, we do. We watch for patterns, not just here but other sites as well, on people posting commercial-style posts. People get reprimanded, threads get deleted.
However, we have to walk a fine line. Do we go whole-hog and not let anyone post anything that might remotely be considered commercial, just to placate a handful of people, or do we do our job and monitor what IS posted?
I'm gonna be honest. I'd rather be playing Guild Wars right now than answering questions in the forum. This is not a full-time job for me. However, I do see this as something that needs to be addressed and not ignored. I know that I'm not the only staff member reading this, and it would be redundant for everyone on the team to hop in and give their 2cents, because then this would be all "Oh, this is us vs. them!!!111!!!!!" But, I truly think that you guys are making this WAY more complicated than it needs to be.
Life's never going to be fair. Sometimes, something's going to be in your favor. Sometimes, things aren't. Like I tell the kids on my basketball team, build a bridge, and get over it ;)

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Also, I know that, after my last post, someone's going to say "But you're not doing your job, there are x number of posts with commercial references!!!!"

It's ridiculously easy to sitemail me and send me a link. I can't guarantee that it will be taken care of to your satisfaction, but any and all concerns will be looked at and given thought, and even staff discussion.

edit

We can't POSSIBLY read every single post in the forum, nor see every SINGLE image AND image comment in the gallery. It is completely impossible, and Rendo would need MUCH more manpower.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - Now that was a commercial hidden in a rant that is trying to blow things out of proportion.

I was again dragging the thing to it's most exaggerated extreme.

It does seem like a little streamlining in the rules department might be in order though, Jen&co. A little clarity and thought, and this entire thread could have been avoided, methinks.

Most of us do appreciate your efforts. /bow

I'm going to get off my soapbox now, and let you get back to your day

>> Now the way you present your last point. There is no difference. That sounds like friends promoting friends just as a loophole because they can.

... which I believe was Anton's original point.

Or is it that time of the year that we have to be offended at every little thing someone else does, simply for the sake of argument? *

I believe that's in October. :-)

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

"But you're not doing your job, there are x number of posts with commercial references!!!!"

Happy now?

I thought it was September that was the bad month or did that change too. Well I for one, and you know this is going to hurt me to say, think the mods have been pretty good at keeping it at an even flow.

You tell anyone I agreed with what a mod has said and I will deny everything.

Quote - "But you're not doing your job, there are x number of posts with commercial references!!!!"

Happy now?

I thought it was September that was the bad month or did that change too. Well I for one, and you know this is going to hurt me to say, think the mods have been pretty good at keeping it at an even flow.

You tell anyone I agreed with what a mod has said and I will deny everything.

I'm absolutely happy now. Oh, and no worries, I won't bring it up, as long as the proper offering of Bawls and Mac and Cheese is left on my doorstep :lol: j/k

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote -

Or is it that time of the year that we have to be offended at every little thing someone else does, simply for the sake of argument? *

I believe that's in October. :-)

Well, son of a crap. I'll just have to build a bunker and hide in October, because I'm using up all of my vacay days in May/June, LOL.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote -

Most of us do appreciate your efforts. /bow

I'm going to be quite honest, I'm making very little effort, because it's not my decision ;) Admin has been notified, there's a discussion going on, I'm simply attempting to give you guys a sense that you're being listened to, because you are. It may not seem like it when we or the Admin go off and discuss things, because it's not instantaneous, but listen we do. The discussions here of late, as much as people seem irate, are refreshingly calm and cool.

So, that makes me wonder....did we all kinda grow up, or are you guys just trying to keep me from posting Fall Out Boy lyrics in retaliation? (totally kidding.)

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - > Quote -

sigh some major cases of commerce-phobia around here.

I wouldn't say that exactly... I mean, when someone asks about finding this or that item or prop, the barrage of replies usually don't include freebies, but a horde of merchies and friends of merchies pointing to for-sale items. More like commerciophilia at times...

Now, this is not to say that I agree or disagree with what the PTB are trying to do. I just wish it were a little less complex.

Oh, I hear ya. I can give you my reasons, and opinion about it.
First I wanna preface this that when i search for desired content I use one of the search engines, whatever3d.com that lists freebies and commetcial pieces.

I think commercial pieces come to the front for several reasons:

One, they're often more visible and better organized.
Two, they are very often of better quality then freebies. (Not all of them, but there's a significant percentage) There is a fair amount of crappy product even in commercial pieces. In freebies, it's magnified.
Three, trying to find, unzip, clean up directories and actually manage freebies - I personally find overly time consuming and nightmareish. By the time I get done finding, unzipping and making sure any freebies actualy work, most of my free time for the task is gone. Merchant packs are usually more organized and concisely packed.

Personally, I don't use a whole lot of freebies, mostly for the above reasons, so when someone asks about a piece, I'm more likely to be familiar with a commercial product then with freestuff, and offer my answers accordingly.

Now, if Stonemason and few other of my favorite vendors offered their stuff as freebies, I'd be a lot more excited about more freebies. Much like I get super excited about Apollo, and Apollo is FREE! I'm excited about Apollo because it's a great quality product/piece... whatever you wanna call it. Not because he's free or not free.

As a hobby aspect of 3D, it's much like any other hobby I ever had... most of the things you need for the hobby, you end up buying them. Sports, crafts, sewing, dioramas, jewelry, scrapbooking, beads, whatever the hobby is, there's always something for it that you have to buy to engage in it. And sometimes you get to share things with other people, and don't have to buy stuff. A nice bonus.

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BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

*Now the way you present your last point. There is no difference. That sounds like friends promoting friends just as a loophole because they can.

*Jut as a matter of setting the record straight, when I made a post about stonemason's latest product, it's not the case of buddies promoting each other. As much as I'd love to be so fortunate to be his buddy, I'm no more then just a big fan of his work. The guy makes most amazing architectural pieces, and I'm a fan of architectural props... from Stonemason to Faveral to DarkAnvil to medievalworlds and many others. Plus, he made a piece that very much illustrates the areas where I grew up, something very near and dear to me.

If there's anything I'd be guilty of by making that post it would be of kissing up to stonemason, and pushing the envelope because I didn't like the latest no outside links in product forum rule, and partially thought, well, that's not allowed, but I'm allowed to post about it dead smack in the middle of poser forum as a fan. Go figure. A subverted attempt at raising the issue.

Definately not the case of someone putting me up to it. Guess what, I act independently, don't need to be put up to things by my friends and mega merchants.

Also, Anton didn't put me up to adding his banner ad to my sig so that every time I post, there's an advertisement to Apollo. I did that one all of my own and in admiration for his work.

Also, Blackhearted didn't put me up to talking about GND, I've been a fan of that figure for a while, and AerySoul didn't put me up to talking about Alice.. (I'm trying to remember what other commercial products I may have mentioned lately... oh, yeah, Dimension 3D tools, Wardrobe Wizard, Hexagon etc.)

If I was promoting my 'buddies' I'd be promoting OKC Design group.
This place: http://www.okcrandy.com/

What's next? Accusations of a secret cabal?
Yes, there's a secret cabal, I'm in and you're out, and you can't have the decoder ring....
It's mineeee, allll mineeeee.... muaaaaahahahahahaaaaa................. my precioussss.........

:rolleyes:
[Kitty - the lone gunma... ahem poster]

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Quote - Now that was a commercial hidden in a rant ....

And even if it is, what's so bad about it? Seriously? Is he supposed to be feeling guilty and humble for participating in this commercially too? Why should he? Is commerce a bad thing?

I think what's very uncool is your attempting to villify the commercial aspect of poserdom.
It's a big bad commercial... ssssoooo shhhhamefull!

BlackSpartan, I think you should stand in the corner, kneel on dried corn grains and contemplate your bad behavior. A commercial... why how dare you! :rolleyes:

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

You have definitely misconstrued everything said by anyone who has not whole heartedly agreed with your views. Even with those that have seen what happened and thus the rule to stop it.

Oh well. Good luck with your Holy Grail quest of total dominance of forum advertising. Just remember to read the instructions first before you pull the pin. You may get what you want and not like it.

I now understand older people when they talk about how younger people think they know better than those who lived though it. LOL.

Ok, in order to interrupt what looks like might become a fight/argument, I'd like to let you know that I've heard from Admin on this, and, well, here goes:

We appreciate your feedback. We do listen, we promise. At this time, we feel that our (staff) dilligence is needed to monitor threads for commercial posting, but a blanket ban on posting anything regarding commercial products is not only not necessary, it would be very heavy-handed. We will be, as a team, reviewing every potentially commercial thread (obviously blatant commercial threads will be immediately removed and/or deleted, in accordance to the recently changed advertising policies).
We will also be keeping a close watch on those who may be attempting to circumvent our rules. Please bear in mind that we draw a line, ad hoc, between outright advertising and informational posts. You may not agree with where we draw that line, but it is drawn because we do NOT believe that either a blanket ban or an advertising free-for-all is in the best interest of this forum's users.

In short, things will be staying the same, only we will be working harder on OUR end to ensure advertising does not happen in our forum.

And, as always, if you have any further questions, you can always reach admin directly (and faster) by emailing them at Admin@Renderosity.com

Jeni

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - You have definitely misconstrued everything said by anyone who has not whole heartedly agreed with your views. Even with those that have seen what happened and thus the rule to stop it.

Oh well. Good luck with your Holy Grail quest of total dominance of forum advertising. Just remember to read the instructions first before you pull the pin. You may get what you want and not like it.

I now understand older people when they talk about how younger people think they know better than those who lived though it. LOL.

Quote - Good luck with your Holy Grail quest of total dominance of forum advertising.

:lol: Now look at whom is exaggerating and misconstruing things. :rolleyes:

If you want to shame or judge me for doing something unwise or inappropriate, you need to at least try and not do the very same thing in the sentence that follows. Otherwise you come across as the very thing you accuse me of being.

Young? I'm few months shy of 40, but thanks, I like to be called young. Been around the block in business and in life a lot more then you apparently think I have. Contrary to what you're implying here, not agreeing with your point of view doesn't mean I'm stupid, inexperienced or immature.

Your euphemized patronizing however makes you look like someone whom, in spite of the life experience they boast of, still hasn't learned to not lash out or put down someone they don't agree with.

I on the other hand am ignorant and inexperienced, so I can't possibly carry that much of a blame for temperamental lashing out. Young unruly inexperienced people like us tend to do that. Maybe by the time I get to be your age I'll learn.

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Kitty to self - shooting fish in a barrel - not nice]

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Right and your rants are what?

Doesn't really mater now, it stays the same. wisdom prevaild.

Hey, guys, can we keep this thread civil, please? :)

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

JenX I appreciate the loosening of the rules and the job you've been doing, thank you.

I admit, I liked it a whole lot better when it was open and a bit of the wild west. Ya never knew what was going to be in the forums each day. The shear number of freebees was an extraordinary event as a draw.
And sales WERE much better then now because we interacted directly with the Poser community.
Even on dialup I was able to sort through te threads easily.

Consider if you will, the bitching wheel gets the grease, But the vast majority of us back then that WERN'T bitching liked it the way it was. Open, and interesting.

Night :)

Quote - I am serious about this.

My questions are not about OT threads, asking questions, tutorials, etc.

Everyone here knows exactly the type of threads I am referring to, which are being allowed. And I provided links to such examples initially. Many of the threads, that are being allowed, are not discussion. They are advert announcements. And many seem to be slipping through the cracks.

Well I'm going to have to take exception to your choice of words here as you have included/lumped me into this mix. To be honest I wanted input and that was all I was asking for, and I recieved input. It was rather interesting for me to hear what the dislikes were...and I thank those that shared. I did not mention if it would be a freebie or a sale, I did not mention were to get her. You assumed that it was a marketing move, but really I was interested in what peps thought, and that's why I asked. That's why I gave her (for free) to some folks to get their opinions. I hopefully will gain some insight from them.

So is having a banner riding in every one of your posts advertisment?
I could see how some would say, "yes" and how others would say, "no".
Since your banner is here at Rendy, are you offering Apollo through Rendy now? Why not?

If I really wanted input from my morph, where else am I supposed to go and get it? I guess I could go and ask folks at CP (as that's where I sell) but there isn't the amount of traffic there as there is here. I could have asked at DAZ but I kind of consider Rendy my home...maybe time to move, eh?
I am not saying that I am above crossing the subtle line drawn here (by Rendy), okay? I personally think that this decision by Rendy is ultimately going to hurt them more then help them.
But I really just wanted input. And a whole 4 peps actually shared, not the input I was hoping for, but you work with what you got.

I can understand your point of view on this thread. If you wish to respond please do, but don't feel that you need to. If you want to IM then please do as well. You can always just email me at darkedge@sbcglobal.net I think I understand where you are coming from. I am not interested in a war of words, that is not my thing, nor do I mean to imply that is your choice either.

I wanted input that was all, it was not meant as a marketing move. Could I have achieved the same results with a different method? No doubt.

Anyways that's where I am coming from.
Regards.

Comitted to excellence through art.

Quote - Well, we can always assume that every poster has ulterior motives and try to stifle everyone's posting abilities, or we can REMAIN somewhat free with the posting.
Sorry, but like I said before, if we get rid of any and all potentially commercial posts, soon we wont' be able to even link to Poser, because it's a for-purchase item. So, why don't we use some common sense here, folks? Or is it that time of the year that we have to be offended at every little thing someone else does, simply for the sake of argument? If it is, you're gonna have to let me mark it on my calendar next year...and I'll take a vacation, LOL.

Go ahead amd mark every Spring and Fall on your Calendar Jen. People with SADD (Seasonal Affectation Depresive Disorder) do this every spring and fall. I thought everyone knew that by now. Also, I'd just like to gloat that I've been keeping my own SADD in check for over a year now. :tt2:

Hey, I'm not saaadddd, I'm just terminally grumpy! :tt2:

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Quote - We appreciate your feedback. We do listen, we promise. At this time, we feel that our (staff) dilligence is needed to monitor threads for commercial posting,

Nice to hear.

Quote - but a blanket ban on posting anything regarding commercial products is not only not necessary, it would be very heavy-handed.

You misunderstoof what I was asking. Noone said "Blanket ban"

Quote - We will be, as a team, reviewing every potentially commercial thread (obviously blatant commercial threads will be immediately removed and/or deleted, in accordance to the recently changed advertising policies).

Nice to hear.

Quote - We will also be keeping a close watch on those who may be attempting to circumvent our rules.

okay sounds good if it is sincere and not biased.

Quote - ...we do NOT believe that either a blanket ban or an advertising free-for-all is in the best interest of this forum's users.

I am annoyed you keep saying blanket ban. You are insinuating a request that was not made.

Quote - In short, things will be staying the same, only we will be working harder on OUR end to ensure advertising does not happen in our forum.

Does this include non-discussion announcements?

Quote - And, as always, if you have any further questions, you can always reach admin directly (and faster) by emailing them at Admin@Renderosity.com

Jeni

Noone answered any of my questions. ***

***and not targeting Phantom3d, or anyone else, but are commercial figure WIP posts allowed in the Poser forum again?

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

More forum rules? No freebies, no advertising? Next thing you know we won't be allowed to have advertising banners in our signatures.

...... Kendra

Not any more rules. Not sure if you read the whole thread. The point is the rules aren't the same for everyone.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - Not any more rules. Not sure if you read the whole thread. The point is the rules aren't the same for everyone.

I thought Jen just said that they're trying to be a bit more relaxed about the rules as of late. The threads you enumerated in the initial post seem to support this.
Where is the inequality?
Should they go and find previous threads that they moved or warned about and make apologies or something to that effect to make things more even?
Who exactly is not getting treated equally?

Are you talking about the fact that merchants can't blow their own horn, but someone else can? Well, if you inspect any social rule close enough, placement of it's dividing line will appear somewhat arbitrary. That's just the nature of rules in general. It's not an indication of favoritisam or unequal treatment.

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Quote - JenX- In all fairness, the original rule was around because you couldn't ask a question or post a tip without it being drowned out of the forum with commercial posts. That's why we made the MP forum in the first place. Well, that was before I came on staff, but still.

That isn't accurate. So overy exxagerated. It was not so bad. Noone was drowned. I was here during that period and before as an active member; not someone who posted elsewhere and occassionally came here. It was a problem, then too, because the rules were never consistant.

Two periods in time are being confused.

The Product Showcase birth, many years ago, resulted from an earlier wave of complaints and a desire to have a place to show off products since the forums were a very popular site feature. At the time, commrcial themed threads were very popular with all the discussion you are saying is so good to have. But back then, that popularity lead to resentment, which lead to a lot of complaints.

So to fix the issue they created the Product SHowcase Forum.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=606232

The issue of people avoiding Product Showcase continued into 2003. The problem was similar. Some threads advert, promo, wip threads, usually about Daz figures, weren't being moved to Product showcase. More resentment ensued.
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=1374482&page=1

In 2004 there was a surge of forum rules. Brokering was at it's height. There were many sour grapes in the forums who frequently/actively griped about brokers talking about their items. Several rules and changes happened during a short period of time and were very severe. Nothing unrelated to the use of Poser was allowed.

Complaint and debate, much liek PP Chix Coop, took most of the OT thread stress. So to get around the issuein the Poser forum, people would post a pic of a poser figure and then say "Btw.....".
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=1680787

The suggestion of a toggle feature to simply hide commercial posts has been suggested for over 7 years. They say they listen?

The best suggestions from the past have been

A visibility toggle for topic flags like nudity, commercial, etc. (ignored)
A content discussion forum.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

You complain (among other things but I'm only addressing this one):

Quote - Any if freebie creator have to post announcements in the Freebie Forum, why are non-creators exempt?

Ironically, your freebie banner is all over this thread (and forums) including your own signature. How can you claim that, in this part of your complaint, you feel that as a content provider you feel you are exempt from this "separate member rule" when you are free to use the banner along with anyone else who chooses to advertise for you? Are you complaining about those who advertise your freebie in their signatures? Because the way I see it, your Apollo freebie is not being relegated to the freebie forum only. Or are you referring to thread titles and not post content?

...... Kendra

Sweetie, start from page one. Read each blue block one by one and wait for the light bulb. be patient. It will come. But wait for it.

Seriously, this issue doesn;t affect me at all. But it is an important issue to me, because I see where it isn't fair.

But in regards to my banner and Apollo, I did have to announce him in the Freebie forum and was one of the first to use it. I follow the rules, even if I don;t like them.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - Connie wrote:
I thought Jen just said that they're trying to be a bit more relaxed about the rules as of late. The threads you enumerated in the initial post seem to support this.
Where is the inequality?

Connie, the thread (which wasn't addressed to Jen repectfully) went in another direction from some, but I am not sure how I could have put my questions more plain. I was asking:
***Why are there separate rules for content creators(not necessarily merchants) when similar threads are allowed by anyone but the creator.

***Really all I am looking for.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Quote - > Quote - Connie wrote:

I thought Jen just said that they're trying to be a bit more relaxed about the rules as of late. The threads you enumerated in the initial post seem to support this.
Where is the inequality?

Connie, the thread (which wasn't addressed to Jen repectfully) went in another direction from some, but I am not sure how I could have put my questions more plain. I was asking:
***Why are there separate rules for content creators(not necessarily merchants) when similar threads are allowed by anyone but the creator.

***Really all I am looking for.

You and I both know that as an admin, they can't or aren't going to come and say that the current rules are result of somewhat hap hazard appeasing of whomever seems to scream the most. Much the way most rules come to being Just look at politics and governments, they're supposed to be experts at rule making - like our beloved legislative branch... and hap hazard rule and policy making is everywhere. We seem to call it the democratic process.

I mean, even if they privately may think this to themselves, being in a position of an admin, it's very likely they aren't allowed to say something to that effect (I've admined sites with thousands of members before - you get little pep talks about what kinds of things you should and shouldn't say. in order to uphold an image.) Wen you become an admin, you agree to this, and you no longer get to speak for yourself, everything you say can be construed as the site official stance. It's not some sort of a secret or a bad thing, it's how these things work.

If I look at this in the light of you not being satisfied with this answer, which I think is closest to reality, and I know you're no dummy, your question ends up looking rhetorical... but with no clear indication of what you're getting at. I've been looking at your questions and thinking to myself, what exactly is your beef? I find it hard to believe that your beef is merely with the rule making process being hap hazard. Just about every rule making process I've ever seen is rather hap hazard. If I see one that isn't, I'll get worried.

The rules are a bit goofy. If they get adjusted, someone else whom is more affected will think they're a bit goofy. Rendo Staff doesn't appear to think they're goofy enough to warrant considering changes... so we're kind of stuck.

Personally I'd like it if they got changed so content creators are allowed to talk about their stuff in here more. To me seeing how things are done is very educational. For example, I got to CG society and 3D total and Zbrush Central to see various 'making of.... threads all the time'.
I'd absolutely LOVE it if there were more 'making of' threads around here, and if they weren't relegated to dead forums.

I don't think that pressing admins is going to bring this change about - if it's possible to facilitate the change. Perhaps polling members or a petition or something to that effect would be more effective. But then again, Vendors and content makers are held to a higher standard of behavior and have much more to lose by participating in a conflict, so guess whom will end up screaming the most to get their way? It won't be the vendors. So, it's very likely we'll end up right where we started.

You wanna show the people running rendo the error of their ways, and do it publicly on their own forum???? ahem yeah, good luck with that. Publically pointing to figures of authority the errors of their ways is never a goo idea - unless one is looking for a fight that is. Not that I mind occasional fights, but I don't think a fight is what you are after here.

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Quote -
***Why are there separate rules for content creators(not necessarily merchants) when similar threads are allowed by anyone but the creator.

It's not so much that there are separate rules for content creators and non-content creators. It's simply that one cannot post advertisements about their product, for free or for profit, in the forum. For example, let's say you purchased an item that you'd bought here, and were having problems with it...and the creator is on vacation (also, for this scenario's sake, let's pretend that you DON'T know how to fix the problem, but someone on the forum might). It would be faster for you to ask the question on the forum, to see if anyone has a fix.

That, itself, is just one example. But, seriously, there aren't separate rules for content creators and non-content creators. Just rules about what sort of posts we allow in our forums.

In all actuality, I'd honestly prefer it if all WIP threads went back to the Developer's forum. However, sometimes, tutorial and/or request threads can take on a life of their own, and become WIP threads.

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Trust me -- if any rule changes were to be made -- or were the enforcement policies of the current rules adjusted in any direction ("looser" or "more restricted"), then somebody wouldn't be happy about it. Please one group = displease another group. That's how these things work.

Members don't agree among themselves over policy matters -- or over the proper methods for the enforcement of policy matters. Picking away at the issue won't change that fact. One member sees things one way; another member sees the same issue from an entirely different perspective. So by default: both members can't have everything that they want -- their way. Not and keep the other member happy at the same time.

Given that set of circumstances: admins are left with the often thankless job of balancing matters in a manner that (hopefully) works out to the better for as many people as possible.

But......some won't be happy no matter what. And that's another aspect of the way that things work.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

heh...and THAT is why I have a half-empty bottle of Tequila in my kitchen (just kidding)

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

In my opinion, a freebie isn't a "product." It is an organic manifestation of the Poser user base. The difference between a creator posting about a freebie and a merchant advertising a product is the difference between a gift and junkmail. That this distinction is ignored reveals how much influence the merchants wield around here.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote - heh...and THAT is why I have a half-empty bottle of Tequila in my kitchen (just kidding)

If it's only half-empty after this thread, you're doing good!

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BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Attached Link: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/product

prod·uct ![](http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png) /ˈprɒd![](http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png)əkt, -ʌkt/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[**prod**-*uh*![](http://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/graphics/luna/thinsp.png)kt, -uhkt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. a thing produced by labor: products of farm and factory; the product of his thought. 2. a person or thing produced by or resulting from a process, as a natural, social, or historical one; result: He is a product of his time. 3. the totality of goods or services that a company makes available; output: a decrease in product during the past year. 4. Chemistry. a substance obtained from another substance through chemical change. 5. Mathematics. a. the result obtained by multiplying two or more quantities together. b. [intersection](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=intersection) (def. 3a).

Use whichever definition you want. I'm using the first.
Product - A thing produced by labor.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote - > Quote - heh...and THAT is why I have a half-empty bottle of Tequila in my kitchen (just kidding)

If it's only half-empty after this thread, you're doing good!

hee hee...it's actually as of about 2 weeks ago. My roommate and I had a margarita night ;)

Sitemail | Freestuff | Craftythings | Youtube|

Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

A definition that doesn't distinguish is too generalized to be useful, and that goes for policy as well. If Renderosity had taken the stand that merchants would be better served by making something of quality then by a change in forum rules, freebie creators would still be able to announce their gifts in the general forum.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote - In my opinion, a freebie isn't a "product." It is an organic manifestation of the Poser user base. The difference between a creator posting about a freebie and a merchant advertising a product is the difference between a gift and junkmail. That this distinction is ignored reveals how much influence the merchants wield around here.

Many freebies aren't gifts to the community, they are also promotional and advertizing items for various merchants.
If you ever decide to become a merchant, one of the basic pieces of advice you'll get is to make freebies to get yourself and your work known before you jump into merchanthood.

So, what you see in the freebies section is a mixed bag of motivations for making freebies.
You'd quickly find ourself with a dilemma of how to categorize what the freebies were intended for. You'll find a few that are meant and only work as an add-on to a marketplace item.

But, your post illustrates what I was getting at a few posts ago. If you move the line - there's always going to be someone impacted and unhappy with it's position. It's never going to be in a perfect spot.

Much like that itch that seems to move to a different spot right when you thought you reached it.

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BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - If Renderosity had taken the stand that merchants would be better served by making something of quality then by a change in forum rules, freebie creators would still be able to announce their gifts in the general forum.

Eh?

And if the wind blew in warm from the West, then the price of gasoline would be 50 cents a gallon.

And other non sequiturs like that.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - In all actuality, I'd honestly prefer it if all WIP threads went back to the Developer's forum.

:woot: gasp :crying: sniffle

Actually, I was never all that sure what the developers forum was for... other then sitting there playng possum* with a few other forums.

*for those whom may not know it, phrase playing possum means 'playing dead'

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Quote - And if the wind blew in warm from the West, then the price of gasoline would be 50 cents a gallon.

Non sequitur or not, I'm going to say a little prayer for those warm winds from the west... just in case they help with gas prices :lol:

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - A definition that doesn't distinguish is too generalized to be useful, and that goes for policy as well. If Renderosity had taken the stand that merchants would be better served by making something of quality then by a change in forum rules, freebie creators would still be able to announce their gifts in the general forum.

We can't tell anyone what to make and what not to make. Us forum staff do none of that. If you have a gripe about the MP, Debbie or Karen would be glad to help you with that.

That said...Even if we say "hey, that's too much like what we've got/it won't sell/that's not what we're looking for", etc., people can sell it elsewhere. Us saying it's not right for here doesn't mean the seller hasn't already packaged it up to sell somewhere else. sniff Smell that? That's commerce in the air.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Everyone wants to post in the Poser forum: because that's "where the action is": and therefore that's where you're more likely to have an audience.

People are drawn in here for many reasons.........but I suspect that a lot of it is for the entertainment value. Although a fair number of participants really do want to know about shaders. But many others simply want to read what others have to say to (or about) each other while they are arguing about shaders.

I believe that the Photography forum is busy, too. Another good place to get noticed.

If you want to be strictly (shudder) serious......then there's the Poser Technical forum, as I suggested earlier.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - > Quote - And if the wind blew in warm from the West, then the price of gasoline would be 50 cents a gallon.

Non sequitur or not, I'm going to say a little prayer for those warm winds from the west... just in case :lol:

Heh -- you and me both.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Ah yes, the poser circus. So true.

It was as bad as jenX and I have said back when the first set of rules was implemented. I remember it well because I was just learning. If it wasn't for members like Geep, philC, Little Dragon and even you Anton, BTW I still have your V2 Promo Girl in my runtime. LOL It really was hard to not get spammed when asking questions.

As Penguisto has mentioned, it is all the rule changing on top of the original that has lead to all this. Is it fair to everyone? Not in thier minds. Nor do I like many of them. I'm not much of a rule person. The first was needed, The added ones not so much.

This is a new generation of users now. Maybe a poll would be a good thing to see where we are at. Many of the older members have left for one reason or another, some of us old farts are still around because we are comfortable here, no matter how hard newer members try to screw that up.

All these splinterd forums are a bit of a pain but as Zenophonz has pointed out there are forums set up for these things if and that is a big if memebers would use them. Nah, Better to rant in the Poser forum.

And yes I was one of the one that wanted Commercial tags back then too. But with the new rules It wouldn't make any difference, if I understand the new rule changing unless you are a R'sity merchant.

Wasn't it the voice of merchant's that caused the freebies having to go? If we're not allowd why are they, kind of thing?

Quote - You may not agree with where we draw that line, but it is drawn because we do NOT believe that either a blanket ban or an advertising free-for-all is in the best interest of this forum's users.

In short, things will be staying the same, only we will be working harder on OUR end to ensure advertising does not happen in our forum.

Goes a little bit towards explaining why, but damn - it seems like unnecessary work.

I mean, you got nudie flags for posts, why not put in a "commercial/advert" flag or somesuch? That way those who don't want to see it don't have to, and it's a lot easier than seeking patterns and moving threads... I mean, I eyeball server logs as part of my morning routine, but thanks to scripts and regex, I only have to skim the parts I'm interested in, and not dredge my eyeballs through the whole pile of them, you know?

FWIW, Anton (the OP) never mentioned a blanket ban (or a blanket loosening, either). He just wanted to know why things are they way they are now ;)

Yup, and I answered that on page 4 ;)

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Quote - Sweetie, start from page one. Read each blue block one by one and wait for the light bulb. be patient. It will come. But wait for it.

Seriously, this issue doesn;t affect me at all. But it is an important issue to me, because I see where it isn't fair.

But in regards to my banner and Apollo, I did have to announce him in the Freebie forum and was one of the first to use it. I follow the rules, even if I don;t like them.

Listen Doll, we've both been around the barbeque more than once and have seen what bitching in the forums gets us all. Bitch loud enough and we're told no more of whatever it is we're bitching about. First we lost commercial postings in the poser forum, for a time we lost off topic posts due to a member bitching loud enough, then free stuff was relegated to it's obscure corner and now we have no off site postings allowed in product showcase.

In case you haven't been noticing history repeating itself do attempt to notice that you are greatly benefiting from something that could be ripped away.... others posting your wares for you.
But by all means, continue. When we can no longer link to our own freebies in our signatures we'll know who to thank.

...... Kendra

Quote - In case you haven't been noticing history repeating itself do attempt to notice that you are greatly benefiting from something that could be ripped away.... others posting your wares for you.
But by all means, continue. When we can no longer link to our own freebies in our signatures we'll know who to thank.

Kendra, I think you jumped the gun here... Anton is not advocating tightening the rules.

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BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

And if the wind blew in warm from the West, then the price of gasoline would be 50 cents a gallon." I'd suggest there's a more causative link between forum administrators and forum policy than there is between warm wind and the price of gas.

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Quote - I'd suggest there's a more causative link between forum administrators and forum policy than there is between warm wind and the price of gas.

True, if forum administrators and forum policy were the balancing/contrasting points of the original statement. However, the tie-in had something to do with Rendo telling its vendors to make quality products rather than alter forum policy vs. freebie postings in the forum.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

It is my suspicion that complaints by jealous renderosity merchants led to a change in policy concerning freebie announcements in the main Poser forum. Certainly, the average Poser users weren't clamoring for change, nor were the freebie creators. I suspect the change of policy didn't help sells or improve the lives of merchants in any way. The best thing a merchant can do to better his or her sells is to create something that people actually want. I guess I can still post work in progress type posts in the main Poser forum, as long as I don't give my figures away or sell them when I finish.

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shrug Please see my post several posts above this one -- on the previous page (I think). You can't please everyone. It simply isn't possible. Whether or not merchants had problems with freebie postings in the Poser forum.......frankly, I don't personally know. But I do know that no matter what the admins do, someone isn't going to like it. Even if somebody else does like it.

BTW - vendors, as a group, don't always agree among themselves as to what policy should be, either. No more than others do. And so......the admins shape policy -- at least in part -- based upon attempting to please the greatest number of members (all of them with differing & often conflicting opinions) that they can.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

the admins shape policy -- at least in part -- based upon attempting to please the greatest number of members (all of them with differing & often conflicting opinions) that they can. It's just that some of the members are more equal than others.

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Quote - It's just that some of the members are more equal than others.

The 'more equal' ones being defined as those who are more-or-less happy with current policy, I suppose -- and who are therefore more-or-less in agreement with it.

Underneath, I'd say that 'more equal' is a matter of perception, rather than of fact. Oftentimes, some people feel that because they don't run the show: this means that they've been cheated or perhaps overlooked somehow. No, it doesn't mean that. It just means that they don't own the business or determine the internal business policies themselves.......and that therefore there's no absolute guarantee that they'll end up getting their way. Some people are realists about that fact, while others insist that life is unfair to them.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

"Underneath, I'd say that 'more equal' is a matter of perception, rather than of fact. Oftentimes, some people feel that because they don't run the show: this means that they've been cheated or perhaps overlooked somehow. No, it doesn't mean that. It just means that they don't own the business or determine the internal business policies themselves.......and that therefore there's no absolute guarantee that they'll end up getting their way. Some people are realists about that fact, while others insist that life is unfair to them."

So true. There are rules that I think are just to Pzz me off and the odd rule to butter me up. In reality, it has nothing to do with what I think or want. It is the owners reasons for rule changes. All we can do is deal with them with hope of an even balance while others want it only thier way and will try to prove the squeeky wheel get's the grease.

After around 7 years of watching rule changes the only constant rule is someone is not going to like it. LOL.

Quote -

After around 7 years of watching rule changes the only constant rule is someone is not going to like it. LOL.

It took you 7? :lol: j/k

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

In my observation, the "squeaky wheel principle" is a risky one to live by. It's a gamble. Sometimes squeaky wheels get grease.......and sometimes squeaky wheels end up burning in a tire fire at the local junkyard, replaced by a wheel that doesn't squeak.

Typically, the ultimate fate of the squeaking wheel depends upon the frequency and the volume of the squeaking, coupled with the temperament of the vehicle's driver.

Of course, like so many other man-made pearls of wisdom, "The squeaky wheel gets the grease" has its antonym: "The nail that sticks up gets hammered down."

Over the years, I've seen examples of both principles in action -- both in my own life and in the lives of others. Although I believe that I've seen a whole lot more resultant nail hammerin' going on than I have wheel greasin'.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

LOL. No it didn't take me 7 years, It has been a constant rule FOR that 7 years. Give me a break, I not that slow though hanging around here for 7 years does give long term brain damage.

Yep, have seen a lot of hammering.

Getting hammered is not all that bad :biggrin:
The morning after headache, now that is a different story.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

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I'm totally teasing, Tashar ;)

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Quote -
Kendra, I think you jumped the gun here... Anton is not advocating tightening the rules.

I know that. But they aren't likely to change things back to where individuals can advertise their own works in this forum. If people continue to complain about the fact that "friends" can do it for the individual where else do you see this potentially going?

For what it's worth, he's right. The playing field is not level. But it never was and it's very true that the squeaky wheel gets attention. Sometimes it's not the attention we want and since the change Anton wants is not going to happen, the alternate very well could.

...... Kendra

I knew that Jen, I was joking too.

Some people are realists about that fact, while others insist that life is unfair to them. If you think that the merchants didn't hold more sway over policy than the vast majority of forum users who were satisfied with the Freebie announcements in the general Poser Forum, I'd consider that opinion as unrealistic as the suggestion that Renderosity seeks the greatest good for the greatest number.

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Quote - > Quote -

Kendra, I think you jumped the gun here... Anton is not advocating tightening the rules.

I know that. But they aren't likely to change things back to where individuals can advertise their own works in this forum. If people continue to complain about the fact that "friends" can do it for the individual where else do you see this potentially going?

For what it's worth, he's right. The playing field is not level. But it never was and it's very true that the squeaky wheel gets attention. Sometimes it's not the attention we want and since the change Anton wants is not going to happen, the alternate very well could.

Yeah, what we have now may very well be the case of 'leave good enough alone'

on the other hand, please feel free to voice your opinion over in the poll thread - it's related this topic. Perhaps the admins are reading.

I'm actually surprized by how many people are saying they wouldn't be bothered with allowing commercial posts in here, as long as they can be tagged. Much like they are in DAZ commons. It appeard to be 3-4 people in favor of this to one opposing it.

So as much as I fear there may be people screaming about things being uneven and rules tightening even more, which I would hate... after reading answers to the poll, I'm not sure if my fear is not a bit overblown.

I don't know how flexible bondware is with little database related changes like adding more tags and checkboxes to forums etc. I gather that Renderosity is in part a demo site for bondware, so if a database change of that nature is a PITA to do in bondware, that's not a plus for bondware. Flexibility to do changes like that is pretty much a necessity in theese kinds of storefront/community type online platforms. I know a little bit about databases, and online databases. Having it programmatically difficult to add a few checkboxes and categories is not a good thing.

The way Anton brought it all up, I couldn't tell for the longest time if he was for or against allowing commercial posts in here. Sounded like he was against, and complaining that as of late some have drifted into commercial territory and hadn't been stopped and moved. I was thinking, oh, great, just what we need is tighter rules and someone pointing out that few threads are pushing the envelope and stirring malcontent. Looked like he was accusing admins of playing favoritisam towards a few threads that Anton pointed out.

Like he was trying to point to the admins some sort of an error of their ways - well, those kinds of things never go well. When I point to someone errors of their ways, it's usually when I hope to anger or frustrate them (in forum arguments), and can run off before there's a lot of backlash.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

One more thing to add... if rules are changed/relaxed even more towards commercial postings, and it turns out to be too messy, well, they can always be changed back. We're not writing a constitution here, just forum rules.

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BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

We're not writing a constitution here, just forum rules. Actually, we're not writing anything here except posts.

Download my free stuff here: http://www.renderosity.com/homepage.php?page=2&userid=323368

Quote - We're not writing a constitution here, just forum rules. Actually, we're not writing anything here except posts.

Pardon me, poor phrasing on my part. I should have said: We're not talking about writing a constitution, just forum rules.

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BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote -
I'm actually surprized by how many people are saying they wouldn't be bothered with allowing commercial posts in here, as long as they can be tagged. Much like they are in DAZ commons. It appeard to be 3-4 people in favor of this to one opposing it.
.

if it were like the daz forums and open to all then I'd be all for it,but in keeping with rositys latest bout of new rules I cant see that happening, even if you could have commercialy tagged threads here they'd still be restricted to renderosity only products ...so why bother? :

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Quote - If you think that the merchants didn't hold more sway over policy than the vast majority of forum users who were satisfied with the Freebie announcements in the general Poser Forum, I'd consider that opinion as unrealistic as the suggestion that Renderosity seeks the greatest good for the greatest number.

But once again: there's always the caveat (which some have a tremendously hard time grasping) that individual opinions -- no matter how sincere, or how passionately held -- do not a majority opinion make. When you are dealing with a gigantic membership: then by necessity you have to take & judge things in the aggregate. One, two, or even a half-a-dozen forum posters do not necessarily represent prevailing opinion for the rest of the membership. They represent themselves only (Which is what I likewise represent in this instance.).

Claiming to speak for "the people" is always a handy semantic device -- used in an effort to portray one's own opinions as somehow being the opinions of a vast throng of protesters: and thereby giving those personal opinions greater weight. But that's about as realistic as saying that one member is a "vast majority".

But some will only be convinced that everything is "fair" when it's all done their way.......as I've already mentioned. Not calculating on the fact that quite a few other members (be they vendors or occasional forum posters) don't agree with them.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Ok, where is the poll? ;)

If you want to talk consistency where is it in the market place. Too many large images on the main page. Waisting client bandwidth and waiting to load.

Just a comment, not to change any subject.

Consistency in the rules should apply to all whether it be merchants or clients.

***And today's special is .... ;) Oops

***Cheers
Randy

If you think that Renderosity doesn't want to make itself attractive to as large of an audience as possible: and that it therefore tailors its forum rules & other policies with that goal in mind (pleasing a greater number) -- then I'd consider that as unrealistic as the suggestion that legitimate input (regardless of the source) isn't listened to. I think Renderosity wants the greatest good for the greatest number, within the context of the greatest profit and the least flack. But once again: there's always the caveat (which some have a tremendously hard time grasping) that individual opinions -- no matter how sincere, or how passionately held -- do not a majority opinion make. Are you contenting that the vast majority of Renderosity users were sick and tired of being told about free gifts in the main Poser forum? It's just commonsense to assume that the vast majority of the people didn't mind free stuff announcements in the main forum since people tend to like gifts. The only conceivable objections would be raised by merchants who coveted the permission to advertise in the main forum. The fact that the few were heeded enough that existing policy was changed should tell you that merchants have more influence around here than the average forum user, though the influence isn't yet absolute. If it was, we'd have creators starting advertisement threads in the main forum. Do I care enough about forum policy to not regret the time I took to write this response? umm…no

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The other day, I was at my local bookstore, picking up the rounds of the usual magazines -- GQ, Martha Stewart Living, Sports Illustrated, American West (my bookseller doesnt know what to make of my choices sometimes). The most recent issue of GQ has, literally, non-stop advertising until page 115, save for the table of contents and the publishing block and a page of bios of the current issue's contributors. But to really get to the reason you buy the magazine in the first place, you have to get past those first 115 pages.

Sometimes I skip over them in a heartbeat. Sometimes I actually flip through and wonder if maybe I can actually afford a $300 shirt or a $7,000 suit (and no, I cant). But they're usually fun to look at and sometimes even helpful in aiding me in figuring out what I want to wear when I cant afford a $300 shirt or a $7,000 suit. And I'm happy to tolerate them as I move on to the cover articles about interviews with the latest flavour of the hour actor and how to have the best sex ever.

Commercial posts? :: shrug :: Tag 'em, and be done with it... whether they sell here or DAZ or wherever. Face it: we're a highly integrated community. There are things in this store that depend on purchases from some place else -- most things, actually, when you really look at it. And to simply pretend those other places dont exist is... well, silly, to be coldly blunt about it. Will we drown in adverts? I doubt it. They dont at DAZ, so I doubt they will here. And folks will come to Rsity anyway: putting in the adverts would spark a little more site traffic, no doubt.

Frankly, this whole thing is such a non-issue; I'm surprised it's lasted six pages. But since it has, two final observations --

(1) Would it kill the admins to make an appearance and explain their position rather than relying on forum moderators to do their dirty work? I'm sure Jen et al have better things to do than be your messenger boys.

(2) Jen: love the new avatar. My boss is looking at me and wondering why I'm giggling...

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Quote -
(1) Would it kill the admins to make an appearance and explain their position rather than relying on forum moderators to do their dirty work? I'm sure Jen et al have better things to do than be your messenger boys.

I have wondered the same, since Clint left, things have not been nearly as friendly and interactive.

Quote - Are you contenting that the vast majority of Renderosity users were sick and tired of being told about free gifts in the main Poser forum? It's just commonsense to assume that the vast majority of the people didn't mind free stuff announcements in the main forum since people tend to like gifts. The only conceivable objections would be raised by merchants who coveted the permission to advertise in the main forum. The fact that the few were heeded enough that existing policy was changed should tell you that merchants have more influence around here than the average forum user, though the influence isn't yet absolute. If it was, we'd have creators starting advertisement threads in the main forum.

I am not contending that the "vast majority" desire this, or that. I wasn't the one who contended that the "vast majority" held to any particular attitude or opinion. In fact, my post was to point out that claiming to speak for the "vast majority" is a mistake in logic at its base. And as for it being a matter of "common sense" that the "vast majority" of users think this way, or that way -- like all such assumptions: it carries with it a built-in danger of being wrong.

Quote - I think Renderosity wants the greatest good for the greatest number, within the context of the greatest profit and the least flack.

Sounds like standard business practice to me; albeit worded in such a way as to imply that standard business practice is a negative thing. Please the largest number of people = have a more successful business. Such an arrangement can always be portrayed in a negative light, of course. But it remains as the way that a successful business operates.

BTW - there still appears to be the underlying assumption being made here that "the vendors" represent some sort of a monolith -- and that all of "the vendors" are a homogeneous group whose interests all run in only one direction -- and who therefore all see eye-to-eye with each other. As I mentioned earlier, and I'll repeat it again here for emphasis: "the vendors" are most definitely not a monolithic group, any more than the general members & forum participants are. "The vendors" don't all agree among themselves as to what should be done, or as to how it should be implemented. So the contention that "the vendors" -- as a monolithic group -- are behind a given decision is about like saying that everyone in the Poser forum agrees with one another over what should and what should not be posted in the Poser forum. Hint: they don't.

Quote - Do I care enough about forum policy to not regret the time I took to write this response? umm…no

That's good. And it's also good that no one suggested that you should regret it.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote -

(1) Would it kill the admins to make an appearance and explain their position rather than relying on forum moderators to do their dirty work? I'm sure Jen et al have better things to do than be your messenger boys.

(2) Jen: love the new avatar. My boss is looking at me and wondering why I'm giggling...

1) I literally have nothing better to do until 4pm, which is when I go to my w*rk ;) Plus, since we're in the forum more than the admin are, and y'all see us more, it's easier to hear from us. shrug Seriously, the easiest way to reach admin is at Admin@Renderosity.com

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Quote - Frankly, this whole thing is such a non-issue; I'm surprised it's lasted six pages.

Good point. In fact, it's one of the best points that's been made in this entire thread.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

In fact, my post was to point out that claiming to speak for the "vast majority" is a mistake in logic at its base. It's a good thing I wasn't claiming to speak for the majority. I was just stating what should be obvious. like all such assumptions: it carries with it a built-in danger of being wrong. The vast majority of Renderosity's users perfer to breathe another breath. Of course, I could be wrong. It's just that some things like preferring to breathe and people liking gifts are fairly safe assumptions. Sounds like standard business practice to me; albeit worded in such a way as to imply that standard business practice is a negative thing. No. It's just an honest assessment, though might seem negative to those accustomed to hearing status quo tongue baths. The crux of my point was that pleasing the vast majority isn't the top priority here and that not all participants here are equal. I'm not complaining. Like so many other places and things, this isn't a democracy so we might as well stop pretending that our chat board opinions count equally along with those who might walk away, taking 50% of their potential profits elsewhere. BTW - there still appears to be the underlying assumption being made here that "the vendors" represent some sort of a monolith The only vendors I'm referring to are those who agitated for the change in forum rules. Of course, maybe none of them wanted the change. Maybe the law of gravity will be repealed next week as well.

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sigh Now you're contradicting yourself within the body of your own response. You're saying that you aren't claiming to speak for the "vast majority", and then you go on to represent your personally held opinions as being equivalent to the necessity of breathing. And, oh yeah -- you bring up the law of gravity, too. Thereby informing us that your opinions are as set-in-stone for the majority as are both breathing and gravity.

Very good -- you go on speaking for the vast majority. In the meantime: they'll continue to breath their own air, and to make their own decisions about what does and what does not please them.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Heh -- I have to admit that appeals to the law of gravity give this matter a lot of additional weight.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

In the meantime: they'll continue to breath their own air, and to make their own decisions about what does and what does not please them. Who are you to serve as a public spokesman for the majority by asserting that they'll continue to breathe air? That's just your opinion and you might be very wrong! lol

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You are correct, of course. They always have the option to stop breathing air, if they so choose.

Too bad that the choice over whether or not to continue breathing air has nothing whatsoever to do with forum posting policies.

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Too bad that the choice over whether or not to continue breathing air has nothing whatsoever to do with forum posting policies. In a roundabout way it actually does, but tracing the thread would be too tedious. A radical anti-assumption stance cripples common sense and obscures the obvious.

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Quote - Too bad that the choice over whether or not to continue breathing air has nothing whatsoever to do with forum posting policies. In a roundabout way it actually does, but tracing the thread would be too tedious.

In a roundabout way, it actually doesn't. And that's what's made this thread so tedious.

Quote - A radical anti-assumption stance cripples common sense and obscures the obvious.

.......let's see........"a radical anti-assumption stance"..........is that a new way to.......? But I have to admit: 'obscuring the obvious' requires talent. ahem Or perhaps it doesn't........

Something To Do At 3:00AM

.... cant....breathe.....................

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - Ok, where is the poll? ;)

Link to the unofficial poll thread related to this:
http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?thread_id=2737680

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Quote - .... cant....breathe.....................

It's a choice! Just remember that it's a choice ! :lol:

Something To Do At 3:00AM

Quote - > Quote -

I'm actually surprized by how many people are saying they wouldn't be bothered with allowing commercial posts in here, as long as they can be tagged. Much like they are in DAZ commons. It appeard to be 3-4 people in favor of this to one opposing it.
.

if it were like the daz forums and open to all then I'd be all for it,but in keeping with rositys latest bout of new rules I cant see that happening, even if you could have commercialy tagged threads here they'd still be restricted to renderosity only products ...so why bother? :

I gather that no outside links rule was put in place in order to ahem motivate a group of vendors to become exclusive with rendo.
I'm not sure if the negative backlash from this latest rule may not be greater then it's benefit, and the measure ends up being short lived. I hope I hope I hope.

Okay, so call me polyanna, I haven't lost hope - yet.... maybe it won't happen. In that case, why bother is right.

There are other ways to motivate vendors to be exclusive and motivate people to buy from rendo. Usually one attracts more bees with honey....

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Quote - .... cant....breathe.....................

Kitty gives Sean a good whack upsi..... on the back!

Here, does that help? Are you choking... Do you need a heimlich

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - > Quote - .... cant....breathe.....................

Kitty gives Sean a good whack upsi..... on the back!

Here, does that help? Are you choking... Do you need a heimlich

Calling Doctor Moe, Doctor Larry, Doctor Curly, Doctor Heimlich. Manuever's needed in the Poser Ward!

Quote - Kendra wrote:
Sometimes it's not the attention we want and since the change Anton wants is not going to happen, the alternate very well could.

I wasn't asking for any changes. I just was asking why there are two differing policies for the exact same types of posts.

You keep saying I benefit currently in some way. I am not a merchant and have no commercial inventory anywhere in Poserdom. Apollo is free and his use, by others, benefits me in no way. Whether 100000 or 10 people use him is the same to me.

Quote - JenX wrote:
It's not so much that there are separate rules for content creators and non-content creators. It's simply that one cannot post advertisements about their product, for free or for profit, in the forum.

And yet the other can.

Jen,
That does mean there are separate rules for content creators and non-content creators..

-Joe Creator cannot make a post saying "My new Hair at Daz"
-Suzy User can post saying "Joe's new Hair at Daz!"

As I said in my initial post, I don't see how there is any difference in the end result. A commercial post is made. As I said, this issue has zeo effect on me, I have always been very pro-content creator, free or otherwise.

If the policies were designed to prevent commercial spam, and yet commercial spam by users is allowed, then the policy is bogus and discriminatory.

I asked my questions to better understand the rational of the admins in having a policy that is partially broken and selectively enforced. The decision does seem biased and reflective of personal preferences. And why I asked the admins instead.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Jen,

You keep mentioning question/discussion threads, etc. This is not what I am refering to.

Explain to me specifically the need for "New at Daz" threads or better yet, the "Alice 2.0" thread.

Not trying to single anyone out. Those types of threads are nothing more than annoucement threads you do not allow creators to make. Wht then would you want anyone else to make them.

Just explain that, without bringing up help threads, discussion threads, vendors on vacation, etc.

-Anton, creator of Apollo Maximus
"Conviction without truth is denial; Denial in the face of truth is concealment."

Over 100,000 Downloads....

Distinction without a difference### From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

A distinction without a difference is a type of argument where one word or phrase is preferred to another, but results in no difference to the final outcome. It is particularly used when a word or phrase has connotations associated with it that one party to an argument prefers to avoid.

"In legal terminology it means a change in definition which does not change the set which is defined. For example changing 'unseparated married men' to 'males who have a non-separated spouse' is a distinction without a difference.

Quote - You misunderstoof what I was asking. Noone said "Blanket ban"

Actually, I think I was the one who mentioned (or implied) that a blanket ban should be put into place. To me, a commercial posting is a commercial posting, whether it comes from a merchant posting a message about his own product or someone else posting the same message. So, "no commercial postings" should mean no more "Hey, check out the latest from Merchant X, over at DAZ".

Even now, at the 6th page of this thread, the admins really haven't explained the difference between the two. Like Anton said, it doesn't matter who the author of the thread is- it's still a thread announcing a for-sale product... sometimes for sale on another site.

VanishingPoint... Advanced 3D Modeling Solutions

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: To whomever makes the final decisions on forum policies, I have some questions..

I know!!!!! :m_laugh: