I don't normally answer these sorts of questions but being a long time mac user in a mixed mac/pc environment, I would say: 1) a superlative workflow with systemwide color management (useful in graphics), 2) a consistent interface (I once had to help someone save a document in a swedish program even though I didn't speak the language), 3) excellent albeit expensive hardware (notice how often they appear in ads or movies of how the editor of PC World runs vista on a macbook pro), 4) a virtually virus-free environment (even when Macs were 50 or 60% of the market), and 5) people forget that most of the major programs such as Photoshop, Illustrator, Microsoft Word, Microsoft Excel, and Metacreation’s Poser started out as mac only programs. I personally hate it when people treat the choice like a religion whether to use a mac or pc since it is a complicated equation of what you want to spend, what you want your computer for, how much you want back if you sell it, how much hassle you will put up with etc... Just as I like that there are options such as Poser and Daz Studio, or the plethora of 3d rendering programs, it is good to have a diversity of platforms for computer users. The limitations are annoying partly because it is the pressure of the market and what I think are short sited business decisions that create these limitations but those are becoming less and less as users can fire up Boot Camp, Parallels, or other methods to use pc programs without having to stay in the environment. Of course, 99% of figures, models, textures etc... already work on a Mac.

First office computer was a MacPlus for desktop publishing. Back then the other side was still in dos command line. To flip the question around, some people are comfortable with Daz Studio and others Poser. Some of each side of the DAZ-Poser divide would fight to the death not to switch to the other camp. I have known the interface and been comfortable with the system for 20 years. Don't own Nortons, Zone Alarm, or what ever the virus stuff of the Day is people on the other side have to use. Don't struggle with registry issues. I do work on-have to fix winTel boxes from time to time here at work. I happen to think the Mac is way easier to use. Trust me, Mac's have OS issues just like Windows has OS issues. That said, somebody who started on Win95, would probably have the same comfort level with Windows and say exactly the reverse. With the Intel Macs I can have my ease of use and when required either use Fusion, Parralles or crossfire to run windows apps. I might be wrong, but I seem to remember when Pagemaker first came out it only ran on a Mac. I think maybe the first version of PhotoShop was the same way, only on a Mac. There were other Desktop publishing packages way back then that only worked on Macs also. I like where I am at. It's where I started and I have no desire to switch and can run any windows program when I have too.

Gary

"Those who lose themselves in a passion lose less than those who lose their passion"

A quick answer is: Macs are not "limited"; they are just different.
Another quick answer is: anything you can do on a PC, you can do on a Mac - and that includes running Windows (XP or Vista) and any PC programs.

A longer answer is:
I am an IT professional, I look after PCs and Windows networks and users at work, but at home I switched from PC to Mac two years ago, and I would never contemplate going back. My iMac is much more reliable than any PC I have used or supported - not a single crash or bug in two years; it's much easier to install and uninstall software and hardware devices; I have never used any anti-virus or anti-spyware software (which slows things down); software updates are never a problem; I could go on, but you get the idea. I have never had any problems installing any DAZ Studio or Poser content on my Mac, although I know there are some things available for PC only.

For the few occasions I really have to use a Windows program at home (e.g. MS Access, for the database systems I write) I just fire up my Windows XP virtual machine under Mac OS X and have it running in a window alongside whatever else I am doing.

I'm not an evangelical, I appreciate that many people prefer what they are used to; but I would certainly say to anyone give Macs a try if you get an opportunity - you won't regret it, and I believe you will be pleasantly suprised.

Sorry for the ramble...

"If I were a shadow, I know I wouldn't like to be half of what I should be."
Mr Otsuka, the old black tomcat in Kafka on the Shore (Haruki Murakami)

Quote - Can I ask what the appeal of a MAC computer is?

There are so many things that are made for PC users that MAC users can't use. Lots of poser related items from installers to scripts to who knows what else.

that's funny... I was thinking the same about Windows-based PC's. For instance, goodies like NFS for instant disk space expansion, a handy terminal session with familiar commands, spare CPU cycles I can use for rendering (and not for running an AntiVirus package)... stuff like that - no joy on a Windows box for 'em. Of course, I do realize that most folks have little-to-no use for such things, but I find tehm to be helpful.

The few Windows-based utilities I do want to run are sitting comfortably on a Win2k-based VirtualPC instance (I have an older G5 box - newer ones can use Parallels to get the same thing).

So, in effect, you can get both Windows and Mac apps running on a Mac.

Quote - When I was looking for a new computer early last year I saw a nice looking MAC at the computer store. And while I gave it some thought, I passed on it because of all the problems I've seen where people can no longer make use of certain things because they are PC compatible, not MAC compatible.

Such as ...?

I made the jump in 2003 - at first it was a PITA, until I began looking around a bit. For instance, there is a free UVMapper (UVX) for Macs. RTE works just fine on OSX. I even run GIMP just fine on a Mac, and at first I never thought that would be possible.

At first I fired up Windows 2000 in a virtual instance at least once every couple of days... I think it's been sitting dormant for the past 8 months now (and the last one was to open an old Rhino file I couldn't find the .obj export of).

I basically re-thought my workflows, and sat down to figure out what I really needed and could easily live without. I found that with very, very few exceptions, I really didn't need Windows for much of anything.

I think the last graphics professionally-imposed Windows requirement I had was in 2005, because the D|S manual (and many of its graphics components) was half-built in Adobe Framemaker, which had no OSX version (Mssr. Hernandez is still on my sh!t list for doing that :) I mean, it's not like you can't build a PDF with Acrobat, or even OpenOffice at the time).

Most folks I know that have made the switch have gone through the same process to some extent - at first you think there's no way you can do without this or that little app... then you realize/discover that there are already equivalents out there, or that you really didn't need to use the thing in the first place, because you no longer have the limitations that Windows placed on your previous workflow.

Pepsi or Coca-Cola?

Some things are a matter of taste, simple as that.

Quote - Pepsi or Coca-Cola?

Some things are a matter of taste, simple as that.

Pretty much, yep.

I didn't read the above replies, but the main reason is approx. 1.2 million viruses, rootkits,
trojans, spywares and worms affecting windows vs. approx. 25 (4 orders of magnitude less )
affecting OS X (all patched). how does one put a price on the damage done by windows
malware? perhaps a few dollars more is worth the security and stability.

there were approx. 5 dozen malwares affecting the now-extinct pre-OS X versions of mac OS,
for any historians here.

regarding the various softwares not ported to OS X, the clever user always finds a way,
hence it's no handicap.

p.s. for the literate here, MAC is an acronym for media access control.

When it was time for my next computer, I knew I didn't want Vista. I wanted something more than Windows 2000 but less than XP. I was dabbling with Linux but (I thought) there weren't enough cool apps. I also found that I was carrying around alot of apps that I didn't really need. The only one I miss is the Universal Texture Converter, which as mentioned can be run with the assistance of Parallel, Bootcamp or Smith/Micro VWware Fusion.

I though Mac was for "MacIntosh" as in "Apple". ;P

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

-- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

I stick to PCs since I can build them to my own specifications. I LIKE tinkering.
Mac hardware has it advantages - Mac components are of high quality, and Macs tend to be put together quite well. But as a customer you don't have much choice.
For ages, Macs have been too expensive. That is no longer the case, Mac hardware is on the same price level as high quality PC hardware.

As for the OS, until Mac OSX I never took it seriously. Often compared it to Alfa Romeo cars - sleek looking design, but you couldn't drive from NY to Philadelphia and back without losing some components. Mac OS 9 stable? I've heard too many stories of 4-5 crashes a day.
Again, OSX changed that. Now the Mac has a good preemptive multitasking OS.
Funny side note: the first OSX version was developed on a PC, since there were no development tools on Mac OS 9 that were up to the job. One of the reasons you don't need Mac hardware to run OSX.

From time to time I have considered buying a Mac. Every time I didn't do it. Reason: when I buy new hardware, I buy FAST new hardware. I bought my first Q6600 system over a year ago, for about € 2000. A Mac with similar specs didn't exist, the one with the closest performance specs was a dual Xeon Mac Pro of € 5000.
This hasn't changed. If you want a mainstream performer, hardware costs for Macs or PCs are about the same. If you want a top of the line performer, you can have PC hardware at half the price of comparable Mac hardware (or less).

Viruses? Most of them are targeted at WinXP 32 bit, and recently at Vista 32 bit. I run XP 64 bit, which is immune to almost all of those viruses. Second, I know what I'm doing when I'm surfing the Net. I don't run resident virus scanners, I use a hardware firewall, every month I do an online virus check, and I haven't had a virus in YEARS.

I'll stick to PCs.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

I miss building custom systems. I also miss the idiosyncracies of mixing components from different vendors affecting interoperability.

It was weird when I first began using the Mac because I didn't need to devote so much time for system maintenance. I could actually spend that time developing. That blew my mind.

OSX is a more solid performer than its predecessor because UNIX runs underneath the GUI. 30+ years of debugging and refinements.

I thought mac stood for Man, Are we Cool? ;)

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I always get asked this question a lot:

Short answer:

I got a bluetooth wireless adapter for an older MAC. It came with a CD & 3 1/2 pages of instructions on how to install the drivers so that it would work under windows.

MAC instructions:

Plug device into a USB port.

That was it.

Long Answer:

I guess it depends on how much time you want to waste on getting your computer to work. I work under the belief that the computer works for me, I do not work for the computer. I use the right tool for the right job. I have much more in the way of options with OS X than I do with whatever crap Microsoft foists upon the computing world.

My time is valuable, so I don't like to waste it with all of the housekeeping chores that are necessary for keeping a Windows PC operational. I have a Windows Partition that I use with Parallels (virtualization software). I just opened up my copy of XP for the first time in 30 days. I had to install 7 security updates & reboot the the virtual machine. I have to do this EVERY TIME I crank that copy of XP up.

I do not have to deal with Registries. I do not have to deal with reinstalling my operating system every few months because of bit-rot, etc.

Viruses:
There are no OS X viruses in the wild. Viruses can be built for OS X, but it is much, much more difficult because of OS X is built on a version on Unix. Unix doesn't allow direct access to Ring 0 for anything but the operating system. Any script kiddie can "build" a windows virus. It takes much much more computer skill to attempt a Unix virus.

I do not have to deal with Active X exploits, VB exploits and all of the other windows vulnerablities.

Fit & Finish:
I like having a bulletproof Operating System that doesn't get in my way. When I went wireless, it took me less than 5 minutes to get all of my Macs connected. Have you ever attempted to build a home wireless network under Windows? The only thing I had to do when I added a network printer was to plug it into the router. All of my macs picked it up, but the PC box I have takes up most of my computer admin. time.

A Microsoft operating system is nothing but spagetti code. The programmers at Microsoft write clever code, not clean code. Clever code breaks much easier than clean code & it is hell to fix.

Did Microsoft ever deliver a journaling filesystem? That was first promised for Windows NT back in 1992, then for Windows 2000, then Windows XP. It is my understanding that it still hasn't arrived in 2007 with Vista but is promised for Windows 7 (in 2010 -2011 timeframe).

I reached the conclusion that all Microsoft Operating Systems were junk when I tried to upgrade from Windows 3 to Windows 3.1. None of my Windows 3.0 programs would run under Windows 3.1 & I was expected to replace all of my programs. This was back in the day when Word perfect cost 495, 1-2-3 cost 495, dBase IV cost 495.

I got to replace "640K is enough for anybody "with "32K GDI is enough for anybody".

I replaced Windows with OS/2 and never looked back. When Apple came out with OS X, I slid over from OS/2.

With each version of OSX, my computers work FASTER, not slower.

APPLECARE:
One of the biggest reasons I own a mac. If the computer breaks, I send it back & they either fix it or I get another computer. A couple of weeks ago, one of my USB ports on my 1st generation MacBook Pro died. When I send it to back to Apple (they overnight EVERYTHING), I will probably get a 3rd generation Macbook Pro (I doubt there are any 1st or 2nd gen logic boards still around). This means that my 2.0 Intel Core Duo with 2 gigs of RAM will be replaced with a 2.2 Intel Core Duo 2 that can take 4 gigs of ram. I suspect that Poser will like 4 gigs of ram better than 2 gigs.

Return on Investment:
I like that I do not have to buy a new computer and new programs every time Microsoft releases an operating system.

How many versions of Vista are there? How much do the cost? The cost of OS X (home edition) is $129; OS X (business edition) is $129. OS X media edition is, you guessed it, $129.

Currently, I am running a 9 year old G3, a 6 year old G4 & a 1 year old MacBook Pro with the latest version of OS X. Try running Vista on a 9 year old computer. Vista will never install on my 3 year old Travelmate 4000.

Limitations:
All computer systems have limitations. For me, it is very, very easy to hit them in Windows. OS X not so much. I can run OS X programs, that just work, I have Unix crunchy goodness with both X11 & the command line if needed & I can run any windows app via parallels if one is needed.

Right now, the only limitations I have for my machine are the #$%^$ing OS9 installers that DAZ uses. DAZ are both too lazy & too arrogant to address the issue. Apple told EVERYONE 6 years ago to move away from OS9, it would no longer be supported, but DAZ pretty much ignored that.

The only reason I have a PC laptop is for some very, very old DOS & windows programs that will not run under vista and are so old that they cannot recognize any file system other than FAT. (Eastern Sun, a varient of Diablo II & Gal 2.4).

Note on Steve Job's Reality Distortion Field:
I use OS X to get my work done. If someone develops a better product, I'll dump OS X like 5th period French. I have 0 loyalty to Apple. I have changed platforms before & have no qualms about doing it again. The computer works for me, I do not work for it.

I just switched from Windows to Mac because I couldn't deal with Vista. I watched my laptop slowly self destruct before my eyes and I couldn't do a thing to fix it. I'd spend most of my time beating Vista in order to get it to do something. With my Mac I just turned it on, it set itself up and I don't need to do anything.

There's not much I need to do in Windows that I can't do on a Mac. I gave up PC gaming long ago. :)

Sometimes you get tired of working on computers and want to work with them, you know?

Acadia, I read the HORRORS you went through with your new Dell. My heart ached for the tears you shed and I thought, "Why doesn't she make the jump?" "Do it! Do it! Do it!", I cheered from the sidelines. What is the appeal of a Mac?, you ask. This reminds of a story written by a reporter who went to interview both Steve Jobs and Bill Gates. He was most struck by the two companies very different approaches. While in Mr. Jobs office, Steve was describing the new Mac line-up. There was a long shelf behind Mr. Jobs with all the models lined up on it. He spun around in his chair and began, almost reverently, speaking about each one, his hands passing over them. To Mr. Jobs, each Macintosh had to be, first-most, a thing of beauty. Sleek, elegant, silent, and powerful. He stopped talking and was silent for quite some time as he brushed his hands over the new form factors. The reporter knew that to Mr. Jobs a Mac, above all else, had to be clean and elegant. A sympony when powered up. When he visited Microsoft's headquarters, the impression he had was quite different. Neither Gates or Balmer were interested in esthetics. They constantly talked of destroying their 'percieved' enemies. Their obsession was completely and utterly crushing companies and then pulverising the ruins. And schemes were bantered about on taking total control of markets. All markets, any market that they could muscle into. Microsoft left no doubt that they want to own everything, right down to the wires. That is their only objective. Now, who would you want to give your hard earned money to?

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things! ; )

My mac is just over a year old, so I'm a new convert.

I didn't do it because they are cool. I'm about as geeky as they come. I have built machines, administered various linux and unix systems and I write C++ code professionally. I started off as a windows fan back before windows 95. I went with the mac because of OS X. It's an amazing improvement on windows. It's as simple as that. It seems goofy, but the OS makes a huge difference in how frustrated you get with your time on the computer (or not). That is why I switched.

It's not flawless, but for me, it's simply a platform with which I can actually do stuff without having to fiddle with fixing something else first.

As for what you can't do with a mac, like folks have said, you can install windows on it and switch back and forth (or even install windows as a virtual machine). I didn't do that. The only thing I lost was xfrog, which kinda sucks. But, one of my goals is to write my own plant building software, so that is probably just more incentive to start that, lol.

With a PC, I get to decide what goes in and what doesn't. With a Mac, Apple decides.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

Quote - With a PC, I get to decide what goes in and what doesn't. With a Mac, Apple decides.

Not quite true, in the Mac line you can get a build to order with many, many different options than just the stock offerings listed in the store. The few shown in the store are just the tip of the iceberg. So to speak.

Ron

I bought a Mac and gave it try, but when my nose started touching my forehead I gave it to a friend.

Quote -
Right now, the only limitations I have for my machine are the #$%^$ing OS9 installers that DAZ uses. DAZ are both too lazy & too arrogant to address the issue. Apple told EVERYONE 6 years ago to move away from OS9, it would no longer be supported, but DAZ pretty much ignored that.

Heh - OSX is (eventually) moving away from Carbon too... it's gonna be FUN watching both Poser and D|S get around that little bugaboo.

PS: IIRC, Apple told 'em 8 years ago, not 6 ;)

Quote - I didn't do it because they are cool. I'm about as geeky as they come. I have built machines, administered various linux and unix systems and I write C++ code professionally.

Hell, I use Ubuntu 8 on my desk at work (and used Fedora Core before that), and even got Evolution to play nice with the byzantine mess that my employer likes to call an Exchange deployment.

Unless/Until DAZ or SM coughs up a product version for Linux, I'll use a Mac for my 3D/CG needs, thanks much. :)

Quote - With a PC, I get to decide what goes in and what doesn't. With a Mac, Apple decides.

For the vast majority of folks, it's no different choosing bits to go into a Dell or HP than it is to choose bits to go into a Mac. If you really like to tinker and think you're man (woman?) enough, park OSX into your homebrew box. Google for "OSX x86" if you want to know how to do it. You'll laugh, you'll cry, but most of all you'll dance and whoop hysterically once you get it to boot. It's a tinkerer's dream... and once it gets built, it runs rock-solid (if you picked yer parts right). :)

Quote - With a PC, I get to decide what goes in and what doesn't. With a Mac, Apple decides.

This is why Windows suffers so many problems. Anybody can grab random junk parts from a garage sale and slap it together and call it a PC. This will be interesting when Windows 7 comes out, as it won't be binary compatible with the previous versions of Windows. I'd like to see them lock out crappy hardware as well.

So you see, the only reason NOT to own a mac is if you want to build your machine or not be a snob! Woohoo! :P

Honestly, I don't get the whole "superior than though" thing. I don't think I'm any better than anyone else. But, I know for a fact my OS is better than someone who still uses windows!:P Maybe those dumb commercials are having some backlash:(

OS X is based on a very mature OS (BSD). One that has had vast amounts of time under the microscope of lots of highly trained computer scientists. Vista and NT might have had 10 years or so to mature, but we are talking something like 30 years for BSD. And, the amount of tweaking and improving that has gone on to make the OS as solid is something that MS can't replicate with any sort of budget.

As for linux, I use it at work-and have for several years. In general it's OK. My only complaint is 64bit linux has real issues with video drivers and I'm regretting switching over from 32bit:( Will be undoing that as soon as I can lose a day to reinstall.

When it's time for a replacement for my machine at work, though, I will probably ask for a mac. I spend almost as much time using my macbook as I do my linux box.

Why a Mac ?
well, all of the good sensible reasons above ....
And yes , actually also because they are a very nice bit of kit . I do enjoy them.

I use a new iMac at work for the graphics/design work I do and have an assortment of iBooks, a Powerbook and a MacBook at home that I and my family use . For 1 month my teenage son borrowed a pc laptop off a friend as he thought it might be easier as all his in-school work was done on a PC . I ended up doing all the maintenance on it for that month ... complete with two bad virus attacks, multiple crashes and having to do full system re-installs... a total nightmare timewaster . Never again !
I spent more time messing with that one piece of equipment in a month than I do on all of my other Mac computers put together in a year .

" Try and be nice to people, avoid eating fat, read a good book every now and then, get some walking in, and try and live together in peace and harmony with people of all creeds and nations."
-Monty Python

Quote - So given the limitations of MAC, why do so many people switch to them?

That's part of the problem right there. Many of the limitations are perceived limitations, not actual ones. I see quite a few things posted here on Renderosity that say "PC only" that I know will work fine on my Mac. It's reasonable for you to see those and assume that the creator knew what they were talking about when they said it wouldn't work, but oftentimes they're just saying "PC only" because they don't know and don't have the ability/concern to find out.

In some other cases the limitations are real, but IMO caused by a myopic view toward the market. I bought --or tried to buy-- a digital photo frame as a gift last year, but had to return it because the onboard software couldn't handle images processed by those little-known image-editing programs called Photoshop and iPhoto. In that case, the manufacturer made the mistake of confusing a small percentage of market penetration with small actual numbers, when they should be recognizing that there are still millions of Mac users. It makes some sense, if you're a software designer working in your basement with limited resources, to concentrate on the bigger market, but by my informal calculations (I did some real math, but won't waste your time with it here) that photo frame designer was thumbing its nose at a hundred milliondollars of potential annual sales because they didn't want to spend relatively few man-hours on making it work with a market that, while certainly smaller, has already demonstrated its willingness to spend money on cool gadgets.

First off, as noted, better virus control. While not unheard of, Macs are pretty much virus-free, and when one does plonk into the system, it's pretty easy to find it and eliminate it.

My ex does IT work, mostly on PCs, and it seems like every day he's dealing with yet another bunch of virii out there on the Internet. Sorry, I prefer not to deal with that.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Why?

Hmmm.......18+ years Mac user. Have owned (6) different models starting with the Classic II and with only 2 exceptions in 18 yrs, never had a problem with any of them. Both times the problems occurred, Apple Care took care of everything quickly with no questions asked.

Recently I was cleaning out my garage and came across my powerbooks 540c and Lombard. I still remember the sales pitch about the 540c's ethernet capabilities. I had no clue what the bejabbers that meant & went "HUH?!". Although both are now ancient by today's standards, they both still work. Hung on to them because at one time, Japanese collectors were quite hot for these items.

Stability & lack of viruses. Or is it virii? Always wondered, lol. You can't discount a stable OS that's reliable and I always cringe when reading what PC users often go through re: OS crashes and virus attacks.

Business reasons: in my area of the film industry, Macs are the computer of choice. Without mine, I would have a tough time finding work. ;)

Overall reasons: Stability (dontcha wonder why that keeps coming up as a reason? ;), reliability and overall they are just plain fun to use. Can't wait for the rumored overhall of the macbook pros - I'll be drooling like an idiot savant until I get mine.

I've always said whatever floats your boat, go with it. I have nothing against PC users - if it woofles your tooters than stay with it! However for me, you couldn't pry my Macs from me. And now with the options the intel based Macs have opened up for us to use software-wise, I like the available options for me to choose from. IMO, options are always good.

I dare you, while there is still time, to have a magnificent obsession. --William Danforth

Another reason to buy a Mac is that you want a fast Windows computer:

Quote - "The fastest Windows Vista notebook we've tested this year (through 10/25/07) is a Mac. Try that again: The fastest Windows Vista notebook we've tested this year--or for that matter, ever--is a Mac. Not a Dell, not a Toshiba, not even an Alienware. The $2419 (plus the price of a copy of Windows Vista, of course) MacBook Pro's PC WorldBench 6 Beta 2 score of 88 beats Gateway's E-265M by a single point, but the MacBook's score is far more impressive simply because Apple couldn't care less whether you run Windows."

source: http://www.pcworld.com/article/id,136649-page,3-c,notebooks/article.html

i often see threads of PC users asking why they should get a Mac but i cant recall ever seeing a Mac user asking why they should get a PC

":.....The $2419....."

is probably why I'll never be able to afford to own a Mac. I'm quite happy with my $899 quad core Gateway. I'd have to be able to get four times as much done with the Mac, to be able to justify it.

Of course, if I had money for luxuries, I'd probably buy a Mac, and a mercedes and a lavish house. Untill then, I have to settle for a working stiff's PC, towhnome, Ford or a Chevrolet.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Same here, Connie.. if I could get the same horsepower and value in a mac system as a PC system, I might consider them, but I just can't justify spending 3 times the cash to do the exact same job.

And when I look at my home network of 4 systems, while I probably have $4000 in them, I'd have had to spend $10,000 on them if they were all Macs... and the nearest product support center for Mac product is 2 hours highway away from me. So everything Id want to buy would have to be internet order only, and some thing I prefer to buy on local sales, and prefer local support on.

And with gas prices and general prices spiralling upward out of control, and the dollar devaluing daily, I'm counting every single nickle and dime.

When I ever get rich, I'll buy a Mac laptop as a toy.. but odds are that'll be 10 years from now, if ever.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Also, If I had three grand to splurge on computers, I'd probably buy three or four PC's and build a render farm.

And with gas prices and general prices spiralling upward out of control, and the dollar devaluing daily, I'm counting every single nickle and dime.

Yeah, tell me about it! Due to the housing industry in recession, I was laid off a month ago. 30+ firms I know around here, noone is hiring or givingout any part time work. Government around here has a hiring freeze too. In 20 years I've been in this business, I've never seen it this dead! I never had troubl findining work in the past. Between little bit of savings and unemployment insurance and occasional contract, I hope we survive till things start moving again.

Anyway, sorry about the digression....

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Least is I create poser content from home, I'm not driving using up gas...LOL!

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Come up here to Canada, the construction industry is booming and cant get enough tradesmen if you are in trades you can earn 100,000-150,000 a year no problem.

Always room for more skilled people.

Ron

Quote - Come up here to Canada, the construction industry is booming and cant get enough tradesmen if you are in trades you can earn 100,000-150,000 a year no problem.

Always room for more skilled people.

Ron

Civil Engineering, Land Surveying, GIS and Architectural Visualizations here.
That's how it was over here for last 20 years. At the moment, with the mortgage crisis, every major developer I know of has halted progress of new construction. Some developers till 2009, some till 2010. They figure that's how long it'll take them to sell off curent inventory.
At least during the last recession, in the early 90's, the government was still building stuff. Right now, most of them are over budget or in hiring freezes (State budget crisis - california)

I have a proposal out for a small arch viz project, about two months worth of fees. I hope I hear back on it by the end of the week. I'm on pins and needles about it. Initial feedback was good. Now I'm waithing for a signed contract and a kickoff. - it's a nail biter when you don't have any other work going.

Next couple of years will be one month at the time! Also trying to crank out some poser content in the meantime. Hoping to resurrect my little company. Like Garee said, at lest I'm not using much gas right now!

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Yeah i hear you, it probably would have helped the housing industry ride through this recession if the US government wouldn't have slapped a 35% tarrif on Canadian lumber imports, new homes would have stayed cheaper and people could still afford to buy.

Got to love the big business lobby groups, hurt everyone else so that they can profit.

Ron

Quote - Also trying to crank out some poser content in the meantime. Hoping to resurrect my little company. Like Garee said, at lest I'm not using much gas right now!

And anxiously awaiting :)

Best part is it... will work on a MAC too!

What was the question?

Oh yeah, I'll just throw this out there... Being a life long (well computer using anyway) Apple/Mac user, I personally have not spent much time on a Windows based machine, I think the majority from each camp, come from having their first experience on that platform and just staying with it.

I like my Macs because they are comfortable to me. Whereas a Windows machine "Seems" very cumbersome, although I am sure that would change if I where to use one for some time.

I have had several friends that made the jump to a Mac, simply because they came over to may place and used mine for awhile and found it very intuitive.

On the lines of expense, you are all absolutely correct Macs are not cheap seat in the house, but Mac users are not Cult members, a bunch of Rich kids, though some are, or anything other than people that are comfortable in the platform.

I do not believe for a single second that My Mac is Better than any PC, but my application and use it suits me just fine... all 3 of them.... G3, G4, iMac, all purchased as demos BTW ;p

my .02

-Syn

Oh and you can always do this with it when your done:

Click Me :)

*On the lines of expense, you are all absolutely correct Macs are not cheap seat in the house, but Mac users are not Cult members, a bunch of Rich kids, though some are, or anything other than people that are comfortable in the platform.

*Oh, I hear ya! I just wish I can talk myself into spending the money. That's the number one rea$on why I don't use a Mac.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - ":.....The $2419....."

is probably why I'll never be able to afford to own a Mac. I'm quite happy with my $899 quad core Gateway. I'd have to be able to get four times as much done with the Mac, to be able to justify it.

Actually, amortization already does that for you.

I bought my main CG box (a Mac dual G5) in 2004... four years ago. I could very conceivably continue to stretch it out until 2009 if I desired. I have yet to see any OEM-built PC last past three years of hard use... either the parts die off, the OS demands an upgrade that the box isn't capable of supporting, etc...

So I could either continue using the dual G5 until 2009, and have the $2100 originally spent on it amortize down to $350/yr for reasonable high-end performance throughout the majority of its lifespan. Stretch it out to 2010, and it drops to $300/yr.

Or... I could buy a $900 box every three years, plus OS/Antivirus/etc upgrades as they come out, which comes to just a little over the same amount - just that you have to deal with such things as bitrot and obsolescence in the meanwhile.

Weeeeeeell... its been an interesting thread so far, but we have yet to hear from Acadia who started this thread with a question to us (mostly) Mac users on why we stick with the platform. Acadia... (tap tap) come in, Acadia. Are you there?

Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things! ; )

Quote - I always get asked this question a lot:

Short answer:

I got a bluetooth wireless adapter for an older MAC. It came with a CD & 3 1/2 pages of instructions on how to install the drivers so that it would work under windows.

MAC instructions:

Plug device into a USB port.

That was it.

Everything ssgbryan said I agree with pretty much completely. > Quote - is probably why I'll never be able to afford to own a Mac. I'm quite happy with my $899 quad core Gateway. I'd have to be able to get four times as much done with the Mac, to be able to justify it.

You will..guaranteed. Peng..."Actually, amortization already does that for you. " Exactly. My current mac is 5 years old. It wasn't until just this year I even decided to add ram, taking it from 2.5G to 6.5G. If something DOES happen, my G4 that's about 9 years old will fire up immediately, running the same software I have on this one and I may be a bit slower, but still completely functional. I shop online anyway so ordering things online is no hassle. If I need to go to an actual store..there's Apple stores all over now. Or Fry's. Or CompUSA. A lot of software comes bundled as PC and Mac as well. Times I've reinstalled the OS: 0 Times I've reinstalled ANY software at all: 0 Times I've had to call Apple for service: 0 Times my computer has been down for ANY reason: 0 Number of viruses I've had with NO firewall ever: 0 It runs 24 hours a day, under fairly heavy load about 16 hours a day. My version of normal use is having 2 broswers, FTP, 2-3 200MB+Photoshop files open plus assorted smaller ones, Illustrator, Quark, Email, plus I may be watching a movie as well. That's 5 YEARS folks. Imagine how much downtime a normal PC has in that time. I get annoyed when my computer even THINKS about hesitating for a command, so for me to still be happy with it with no reason to buy another 5 years in is pretty much a testament to the quality. And its not because I can't afford it. I don't NEED it. I get on a PC and I feel like I'm suddenly locked into cube. It's painful. Watching my PC friends have a system meltdown or a virus panic on a regular basis is painful as well. I just have to shake my head. Why would anyone put UP with that nonsense? If your car had a melt down and the engine had to be rebuilt every 3-6 months you'd think it was a lemon. If you had to update 6 things before you could use it every few days/weeks it would make you insane. Why would you accept that from something you use all day long? It's not about being a snob, although I admittedly AM an Apple snob. It's about whether or not YOU are using the computer, or the COMPUTER is using you. How much is your time worth to you?

Rendo Store | Freebies | RDNA Store

Quote - > Quote - ":.....The $2419....."

is probably why I'll never be able to afford to own a Mac. I'm quite happy with my $899 quad core Gateway. I'd have to be able to get four times as much done with the Mac, to be able to justify it.

Actually, amortization already does that for you.

I bought my main CG box (a Mac dual G5) in 2004... four years ago. I could very conceivably continue to stretch it out until 2009 if I desired. I have yet to see any OEM-built PC last past three years of hard use... either the parts die off, the OS demands an upgrade that the box isn't capable of supporting, etc...

So I could either continue using the dual G5 until 2009, and have the $2100 originally spent on it amortize down to $350/yr for reasonable high-end performance throughout the majority of its lifespan. Stretch it out to 2010, and it drops to $300/yr.

Or... I could buy a $900 box every three years, plus OS/Antivirus/etc upgrades as they come out, which comes to just a little over the same amount - just that you have to deal with such things as bitrot and obsolescence in the meanwhile.

/P

Computer before the one I use right now was a $699 E-machine, bought in early 2005, That amortizes to $200 a year by now, and still going strong. So does my 2001 Sony Vaio which was around $1100. That one amortizes to about $150 a year. Early 2008 I bought quad core Gateway for $899, and a year and a half ago I got my honey an easy to use mid to low end HP, for $399 (He doesn't do graphics or any high end use, just email and word.) Since 2001, I have four computers here for just over $3000.

I don't chase OS and software upgrades as they come out, saves you a lot of money, and they're definately something one can live without. What OS comes with the computer pretty much stays on it till the computer dies, with the exception of service packs. If you use AVG antivirus, it's free.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - How much is your time worth to you?

I was just about to add that.

Also, I was discussing computers with an acquaintance some weeks ago, and he was detailing his adventures with Dell customer service. He asked me how long I had to wait when I called Apple for service, and I told him I'd never had to call. He asked how long I've owned Apples. When I said twenty years, he grew quiet and thoughtful.

LOL...try buying mac software through Dell. We have a Dell account because my hubby and son are on PCs. I can't navigate their website much less their customer service. I do particularly like how they structure thier warranties though. You cannot purchase a warranty on their Dell business credit. You must pay cash to extend. Wonder why THAT is? In fact, my sys admin hubby whose hobby is writing operating systems for Linux has finally had enough of his PC and is moving to Mac this year. No more lost email, system meltdowns, and endless updates. I can't wait to see a switch live before my eyes and see how he adapts. zai

Rendo Store | Freebies | RDNA Store

I use both (and occasionally some of my old Amigas as well), and I can say for certanty, my next big computer will be a Mac..... Currently my big computer is a Lenovo, with all the bells and whistles...
PC... stress, strain, pain, reboot, reload, de-virus, de-bug, de-zombie, change from Internet Exploder to Firefox rebuild.... scream, yell, resist urge to toss into the river, because that would be environmentally unsound....
Mac.... graphics, animation, edit video, sound design.... but try and find gaming software for it...
Macs aren't for snobs.... snobs only think they are.
buying another used Mac this week... a G4.... if you can't afford new, go used... dealers always have trade ins that they have to get rid of.

Well...I finally stopped playing WOW, but it does do one of the mainstream ones quite fine, headset, macros & all. There's other games, but WOW's the biggest I think for Mac.

Rendo Store | Freebies | RDNA Store

"but try and find gaming software for it" a friend of mine once said "i dont burn my computer's time with games, thats what consoles are for..."

Quote - "but try and find gaming software for it" a friend of mine once said "i dont burn my computer's time with games, thats what consoles are for..."

PC gaming is so much more expensive than console gaming. Factor $300+ OS/firewall/av plus $1000+ computer plus $50 games.

I've got a lot of DOS and Windows 98 games that are completely useless right now. I can still however play my PS1 games on my PS3. :biggrin:

LOL...I used to say that. Until WOW sucked me into its clutches for 2 years. It took becoming a Rendo merchant to tear me away. I never even WAS a gamer until WOW. Somehow I ended up running a large raiding guild before I knew it and actually understood all the slang my kid was using. Family fun for all was had, but scary at my age! You're not living til you kill monsters with your whole family every Friday night!

Rendo Store | Freebies | RDNA Store

you can see from my avatar im a FFXI fan ^ ^

Quote - Yeah i hear you, it probably would have helped the housing industry ride through this recession if the US government wouldn't have slapped a 35% tarrif on Canadian lumber imports, new homes would have stayed cheaper and people could still afford to buy.

Got to love the big business lobby groups, hurt everyone else so that they can profit.

Ron

err, as someone who lives in Oregon, I don't see how dropping the tarriff on imported lumber would've helped any. Logging jobs are not in demand in my region due to decreased demand for new home construction - how would a flood of (only slightly) less expensive un-tarriffed lumber from up North help when there's no demand for the stuff? The mortgage crunch came from financial mismanagement at the corporate level (interest-only loans? WTF!?) and a crash of the wild property speculation that swept a lot of the US... not due to material costs. Trust me - most of the cost increase of a new home came from the dirt it sat on, not the building that got lashed together on top of it. I saw the asking price of even old homes in certain parts of Salt Lake City (e.g. Sugarhouse) rocket up from $140k to $350k (and often more) in the space of three years. Even free lumber wouldn't have stopped that one.

Quote - LOL...I used to say that. Until WOW sucked me into its clutches for 2 years. It took becoming a Rendo merchant to tear me away. I never even WAS a gamer until WOW. Somehow I ended up running a large raiding guild before I knew it and actually understood all the slang my kid was using. Family fun for all was had, but scary at my age! You're not living til you kill monsters with your whole family every Friday night!

Heh - I used to be the biggest, baddest, ugliest mofo that Quake 1,2,and 3 ever saw. Then Unreal Tournament snatched me in. I finally shook the First-Person-Shooter habit once and for all in 2002. I blew something like 9 years of spare moments (mostly when the ex wife was working nights) in front of a computer, not a console.

Now, I do 3d artwork with the thing once in awhile. :)

Apple has made this Mac VS PC debate MOOT!!

My intel duo core macbook is a PC!! and a very nice one at that
and it came with a clearly superior OS pre installed called OSX
NO offense but only poser /DAZ content users are afraid if OSX anymore.
"God Forbid my lace garters & Panties set for "Aiko" not insta lproperly on some mac I might be using"

we can debate about hardware cost all day but in the end it the
OS itself that counts
and the modern MACs run Both... Potential Virtual Lace panty problem ....SOLVED!!!

My website

YouTube Channel

In general, if you factor in the cost of similar hardware, a windows box isn't much cheaper-sometimes it's actually more expensive. The real problem with pricing is that the lower priced macs use laptop components in order to remain so tiny. These components are simply more expensive. So, there is no budget mac.

However, those imacs come with a VERY nice monitor, and really are well designed. So, while you could pay 699 for a junky PC machine whose fans will burn out within the first year and a half, you could plunk down 1000 for a Mac that probably performs similarly and get a much nicer monitor (assuming that the discount PC even comes with a monitor).

As for percentage of users, those numbers you hear are the numbers of computers sold in a given year. When you factor in the fact that businesses are counted in that number, those numbers are completely irrelevant when it comes to home machines. Many of the machines that are sold as windows machines end up in some closet serving filesystems or running a webserver or something. Certainly not potential candidates for entertainment software regardless if windows remains on the machine or not (and the same is true if it actually sits on an employee's desk)

It would be interesting to know the percentage of Poser sales for Mac/Windows.

Quote - The mortgage crunch came from financial mismanagement at the corporate level (interest-only loans? WTF!?) and a crash of the wild property speculation that swept a lot of the US... not due to material costs.

Yeppers. Not only that but giving loans to people whom can't possibly afford to pay them back. The loans with NO and EZ qualifiers based on house equity, and insufficient income to make the payment, in order to inflate the loan sales and home sales.

And now people like me whom had a decent job and don't over extend themselves and didn't make a load of bucks in loan speculations are in jeopardy of being foreclosed on as well....

As much as I HATE government interefrence, someone ought to regulate home building industry more, so the peaks and valleys aren't as severe. Few yers you barely have any life for yourself, cause you;re pushed into working crasy hours (on salary, and frequently no bonuses or overtime), then when things slow down... nice knowing you. Few people make good money, but majority of the employees don't get much in a way of opportunity to save for a rainy day.

BAH!

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

The worst part of this sub-prime thing, is that the people who really are responsible will probably be the ones who get bailed out as a desperate move by the government to avoid the potential disasters should they be allowed to collapse through evolution (you make egregious business decisions, you lose your business). IMHO, the top folk at all affected banks need never see another pay check. They clearly weren't using good financial sense allowing such things to happen below on their watch.

Quote - The worst part of this sub-prime thing, is that the people who really are responsible will probably be the ones who get bailed out as a desperate move by the government to avoid the potential disasters should they be allowed to collapse through evolution (you make egregious business decisions, you lose your business). IMHO, the top folk at all affected banks need never see another pay check. They clearly weren't using good financial sense allowing such things to happen below on their watch.

Exactly!!!!
I think instead of bailing them out, out government should invest the money in capital projects and improvements. That'll allow honest people to keep working, public good will be served with improved infrastructure, and those whom caused the debacle, let those whom screwed it up fry, instead of people like me.
They make a bed business decision, I get to lose my house. Good grief!

I don't even know where else to look for another job. There's about 300 engineering companies in southern california, and I pretty much know all of them. Over the last moth I contacted every single one I could think of, and everyone is in the same boat, instead of hiting they're layong off people.
Most of the collagues I keep in touch with, and whom could always tell me whom is doing what have either been laid off themselves, or are shaking in their chair worrying if they are next.

The company where I worked went from 160 to 20 employees in the last year! We closed the department I was running, cause for the rest of the year they don't forsee needing the service.

I know, I hijacked th thread and I'm grumbling, I'm in a grumbly kind of a mood. Just paid bills for this month. Two to go before things start going unpaid. I hope I find something by then. Sorry... it's eating me up because I'm at the end of my witts where else to look.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Dunno... I just saw a huge wave of layoffs happen at work (the corp is doing fine, but the IT dep't was a bit over-bloated now that we're shifting gears from All-Windows to a mix of Windows and Linux, and don't need so many folks to run things. So... a lot of Windows-only folks got the pink slips). OTOH, not only did the area absorb 'em, but companies and local employers in the area are still looking for more.

I think the jobs situation is more hit-or-miss than anything else. California got it hard (both in private sectors because of the harder mortgage crashes, and in public sectors because a whole lot of big expenses are coming due). Oregon escaped pretty well (most of the really large local employers - Intel, Nike, etc - recently reported record quarters. Also, the area is still vibrant and alive, since it never really saw the massive speculations that other areas have).

The trouble with my area right now is that every shingle home builder that I know of, people like Lennar, Shea, Standard Pacific home and about couple of a dozen others, whom give about 80% of the work to local Civil Engineers have stopped building till things sort themselves out. Most of them untill late 2009 or 2010 or so. Many companies have contracts (including myself) have signed contracts whose kickoff date got pushed back by a year or two.
Almost noone is buying new homes when the market is flooded with near-new foreclosures. Home builders have dropped their prices by 40% to try and attract customers.
This is first hand information, from the building industry association meetings, which I'm a member of.

There's a major freeway that is supposed to get built, but at the moment the tree huggers are trying to put the stop to it because it'll be too close to couple of the beaches, so they're freaking out it'll ruin them. They voted down a larger commercially capable airport in this county, in favor of more housing developments.

California department of transportation, where I could always get a job, right now has a freeze on hirings anmd spending on projects, because California is amid state budget crisis.

Military isn't doing any local building either.

Many local municipalities and districts seem to be afraid to spend money on major improvements without a developer and a housing block coming in to foor the bill.

During the last recession, Cell phone companies were installing a lot of new cell towers, this was just before they were launching digital networks, so some of us stayed afloat doing building plans for that. There was also a lot of earthquake retrofitting by the state, after the northridge earthquake, and couple new freeways were built, and local flood control channels were brought up to current recommendations.

The only place I hear of doing something right now is Edison. I'm researching what's going on over there in hopes they may need some of my services.

Anyway, I and many other engineers and companies are hoping something starts moving along soon. I was looking through various websites about what kind of work is out there. Software engineers, IT people, pipeline engineers, mechanical engineers and administrative assistants.
Civil Engineers, Structural Engineers, Land Surveyors, Architects, or any related technicall staff, almost nothing in California. I see a few still needed up in the bay area, nothing around here.

Last year this time when things were starting to slow down, I was still being hit up by others looking for people to see if I'd be interested, or if I know anyone, or getting calls from headhunters. Right now you call a headhunter, and they tell you sorry, we can't place you, and some of the headhunters I know changed their services offering 'assistance top job seekers', like resume writing services and meyers briggs personality tests etc. It's kind of funny to try and offer that to professionals, most of us did that junk in college.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

There's a major freeway that is supposed to get built, but at the moment the tree huggers are trying to put the stop to it because it'll be too close to couple of the beaches, so they're freaking out it'll ruin them.

... which it probably will, and frankly I'm getting tired of us trashing the entire planet just for the sake of jobs. Right now, Bush wants to drill all over Northern Alaska, in federally set-aside protective areas. Sorry, but no. We had a gas crisis back in the 1970s. That's almost forty years ago, plenty of time, IMHO, to get our freaking act together and get off oil. But we chose not to because we were too lazy and no one wanted to invest in the technologies, and now we're so desperate for the stuff that we'll drill anywhere and send our troops everywhere else to get it. That doesnt sound like anything but addiction, pure and simple. The fisheries stock in the Northern Atlantic is almost completely depleted, but God forbid you tell the fishermen of Nova Scotia to think about doing something else for a few years while the fish have a chance to multiply a bit.

So pardon me if I seem a little unfeeling towards so-called progress, but another freeway just so people can get from A to B a little faster isnt going to solve anything long-term. It's a band-aid, nothing more. Once it's done, folks'll need something else, not because it's really necessary, but because they need work -- and that's not much of an excuse in my books. And when I look at all the things that have been ruined in the name of such stop-gap projects... well, sorry, but there's a tree outside that looks like it needs a nice hug.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - >> There's a major freeway that is supposed to get built, but at the moment the tree huggers are trying to put the stop to it because it'll be too close to couple of the beaches, so they're freaking out it'll ruin them.

... which it probably will, and frankly I'm getting tired of us trashing the entire planet just for the sake of jobs.

It's easy to have an attitude of 'suck it up, chump!' when you still have an income and only yourself to worry about. It's not so easy when there's no money coming in, you have kids to keep fed/clothed/warm, the bill collectors keep calling, etc. Oh, and your state government's broke, so the whole 'safety net' concept is kinda shaky as well.

Yeah, sure - California dug themselves into this hole - between a state legislature that spent itself silly, to residents who did the same just to buy a $750k house that wouldn't be worth $50k in most other parts of the nation. OTOH, that doesn't mean you simply let out a big 'harrumph!' and start preaching at 'em.

The whole oil thing? Yeah, we know. OPEC (finally) decided to get jiggy with the profit-taking, and it really shows. Personally, it's the impetus we sorely needed to get going with alternate energies. I'm glad as hell that I bought a fuel-efficient car last year, and that I live near light rail.

OTOH, before you start proclaiming Oil to be The Devil Drug, do realize that alternate energies are gonna eat some serious resources as well, and they will have their own impacts. Wind and solar farms are going to require a LOT of land. Nuclear reactors still have that problematic waste thing to deal with. More agriculture for biofuel means less agriculture to feed people, or more land getting plowed under to grow it all. Hybrid/electric cars contain batteries, which in turn are built from some really noxious chemicals.

Unless we find a cheap way of getting the population off of this planet, this planet is going to have to suffer under the weight of that population. The only other alternative is to start killing, or to jump onto a mass sterilization program... good luck with the latter one.

So just using the entire freaking planet is the answer? Sorry, dont think so. Stuff is here for a reason, as we all found out when the Old Growth forest in the Pacific Northwest and the Amazon rain forest started disappearing at a more than frightful rate. And at the rate we're killing off wildlife species, chances are real good that those children you talk about wont even know what somethng as simple as a bear looks like outside the stuffed ones in the museums or the heads on the country club walls.

Yeah, we've done a great job of screwing the pooch when it comes to this mudball, and I honestly dont understand how, given that clear and obvious fact, we can even think of justifying doing it some more just so people can get somewhere faster. There are other ways to take those skills and make a living that dont beat the crap even more out of the environment than it's already had to take in the name of "progress". My own field is doing some serious work in the line of "green" sourcing, since so much of what we use is temporary at best: our shop at Godfrey is running at about 85% recycling and recyclable, and the displays we send out are close to 90% recyclable materials... which I would posit is a helluva lot better than most fields. Yeah, it aint been easy, but given the alternatives it's about the only real solution left us.

before you start proclaiming Oil to be The Devil Drug,*

Too late, bubba. It is, and we all know it. Wind may take a lot of land, but at least it's renewable. Solar? We havent even scratched the surface of what's possible there. Nuclear? The French went almost completely nuclear for their power needs, and they seem to have figured out how to make it work. But amazing how, in four decades, we can have wonders like cel phones and the internet and superfast computers and really great microwave popcorn... and still use automobile technology from a century ago with no real change in sight.

Meanwhile, in the middle of the Pacific, there's something about the size of a small island floating around. Care to guess what it is? Eh, what the heck, I'll tell you: it's plastic. Tons and tons of plastic: bottles, boxes, all other manner of "disposables" that have now coagulated into their own little mini-nation. Too much for us to even think about doing anything with, BTW.

But hey, it's out there in the Pacific. Not our problem, right?

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Quote - >> There's a major freeway that is supposed to get built, but at the moment the tree huggers are trying to put the stop to it because it'll be too close to couple of the beaches, so they're freaking out it'll ruin them.

... which it probably will, and frankly I'm getting tired of us trashing the entire planet just for the sake of jobs. Right now, Bush wants to drill all over Northern Alaska, in federally set-aside protective areas. Sorry, but no. We had a gas crisis back in the 1970s. That's almost forty years ago, plenty of time, IMHO, to get our freaking act together and get off oil. But we chose not to because we were too lazy and no one wanted to invest in the technologies, and now we're so desperate for the stuff that we'll drill anywhere and send our troops everywhere else to get it. That doesnt sound like anything but addiction, pure and simple. The fisheries stock in the Northern Atlantic is almost completely depleted, but God forbid you tell the fishermen of Nova Scotia to think about doing something else for a few years while the fish have a chance to multiply a bit.

So pardon me if I seem a little unfeeling towards so-called progress, but another freeway just so people can get from A to B a little faster isnt going to solve anything long-term. It's a band-aid, nothing more. Once it's done, folks'll need something else, not because it's really necessary, but because they need work -- and that's not much of an excuse in my books. And when I look at all the things that have been ruined in the name of such stop-gap projects... well, sorry, but there's a tree outside that looks like it needs a nice hug.

Actually, I do environmental work too, see that falls under the umbrella of the Engineering and Sciences that I mentioned earlier, and would love to do it. Engineering and Architecture is not all about destroying things. We are quite capable of creating many eco-friendly solutions. But, that kind of work is more expensive and in almost zero demand. Things like solar powered houses, alternative fuels, low polutants and low waste products and packaging, downtown housing that allows people to walk to work and live without cars, mass transportation etc. People like me have the know-how, and are willing to make it happen, but there's no buyers.

Heck, just last decade our local engineering association has been fighting tooth and nail to keep an educational campaign about 'no dumping to ocean' alive, trying to educate general public that whatever you dump into your back yard or a local gutter - thing like plastic bags, cigarette butts, car and lawn chemicals all end up in the ocean (where your kids surf, or where dolphins get tangled in damn plastic bags) etc.

Till people like you are willing to pay the double or triple the price for eco-friendly solutions, there won't be demand for them. You can whine about it all you want, but the reality is that most of the ME oriented population is not ready to give up their comforts and pay the price.

This is just the problem with ignorant tree huggers, you're utterly clueless about how things work, and in most cases bark up the wrong tree, and cast their voice in some nebulous emotional reactions that have nothing to do with reality. Unfortunately, they get a vote too. So ignorant as a matter of fact that you don't have a slightest clue that you're preaching to the choir here.

Sean, hon, Engineers and Architects aren't the bad guys. We'renot the decision makers. Our hands are tied to building and creating things (usually of pretty archaic technology) that general public is willing to pay for and that local governments are 'comfortable with - which is the same ole technology of 30 years ago. Newer and better and eco friendlier things, noone wants because they cost a lot more to make. We can build you, actually would love to build you no garbage self sustaining house. You and 90% of the population can't afford it, and isn't willing to give up their conveniences.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - Meanwhile, in the middle of the Pacific, there's something about the size of a small island floating around. Care to guess what it is? Eh, what the heck, I'll tell you: it's plastic. Tons and tons of plastic: bottles, boxes, all other manner of "disposables" that have now coagulated into their own little mini-nation. Too much for us to even think about doing anything with, BTW.

But hey, it's out there in the Pacific. Not our problem, right?

And you're so briliantly knowledgeable that you're attacking people like me whom are actually active in 'DOING THINGS' trying to stop it.
Invloved in things like this public campaign: http://www.ocwatersheds.com/PublicEducation/pe_magnet_drains2ocean.asp
And local surfrider foundation.

So, sean, do you bring your own bags to the grocery store, for example? Because Eco friendly solution is Not Plastic or Paper, buy reusable resources!
Do you stigmatize shoplifters? So we can get rid of all the oversized and multi-layer packaging in the stores?
Do you choose to walk when you don't have to drive? Do you ride a bike or choose to take public transportation? Do you conserve water? Do you prepare your food from scratc, or buy over-processed prepackaged items where you get more packaging then actual food? Do drink bottled water and discard the bottles, or did you install water purifying system in your house to minimize packaging and cost of distribution? Did you install solar panels on your house, so we dont have to burn even more oil and coal to provide you with electricity and other utilities? Do you live, work and drive in non-air conditioned places? What comforts of modern life have you given up in order to live more eco friendly? Do you ever put your money and actions where your mouth is? :rolleyes:

I doubt that you do much, because you don't appear very knowledgeable about it. Not past your silly platitudes about the rainforest and the island of plastic.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - So just using the entire freaking planet is the answer?

Nope - just basic human nature.

Quote - There are other ways to take those skills and make a living that dont beat the crap even more out of the environment than it's already had to take in the name of "progress".

So who said anything about doing that? What I am saying is that there is a vast difference between preaching from a position of comfort, and being forced to live that sermon from a position of deprivation.

You and I can adapt easily enough - my power bill is 2x the average because the missus and I chose to get all our juice from renewable sources only (PGE, Oregon's local power corp, gives you that option). My old 15 MPG Jeep hasn't moved six nanometers in six months, while I instead commute to work via light rail, and drive otherwise in a used but serviceable 35 MPG Pontiac Sunfire.

Great, awesome, cool, whatever... Now how do you propose that the impoverished deal with rising food prices? How do you tell a poor family with a straight face that they just have to suck it up because we think that if we don't do things strictly by the manifestos of every alarmist alive, we're all gonna go under? How do you tell an old woman that no, she doesn't need to run an air conditioner just because the thermometer hovers at around 105 degrees Fahrenheit.

In other words, how do you tell the starving and deprived in this and other nations that they're just going to have to deal with The Green New World Order?

It ain't just deprivation, either. How do you propose to reconcile against the tree-hugging crowd that will scream bloody murder if a nuclear waste disposal plant is proposed anywhere within 1,000 miles of their town? How do you ameliorate the complaints and demands of the hoi-polloi (even of the liberal political stripe) demanding that no new wind farms be built anywhere near eye-shot of their beach-front homes and etc? Natural Gas is cleaner and more plentiful (and cheaper!) than crude oil, yet propose to build a dock or extraction field anywhere, and everyone nearby goes apeshit with protest.

...and don't get me started with water. While folks in the East don't really give it much thought, here Out West you'll find near-murder at the arguments and debates over water rights.

Quote - My own field is doing some serious work in the line of "green" sourcing, since so much of what we use is temporary at best: our shop at Godfrey is running at about 85% recycling and recyclable, and the displays we send out are close to 90% recyclable materials... which I would posit is a helluva lot better than most fields. Yeah, it aint been easy, but given the alternatives it's about the only real solution left us.

well that's great! Now assuming that the effort wasn't just the result of paper-shuffling, PR, and creative accounting, what's it gonna cost the masses to partake of the products made there?

*> Quote - Wind may take a lot of land, but at least it's renewable.

Not really... generators and impeller blades don't build themselves. We can't simply crap out more land. Same with Solar... efficiencies are crap under this atmospheric blanket, and again, the land thing... where do you propose we get some of that without spending a mint?

Quote - But amazing how, in four decades, we can have wonders like cel phones and the internet and superfast computers and really great microwave popcorn... and still use automobile technology from a century ago with no real change in sight.

That seems to be changing - too bad it costs a fortune to buy the new ones. I just can't quite see a blue-collar family running out to grab a Prius... not because of not wanting one, but because they cost an arm and a leg (and we haven't even touched on what it's gonna cost to replace those batteries when they eventually fail).

Quote - Meanwhile, in the middle of the Pacific, there's something about the size of a small island floating around.

...and? What does that have to do with solving the socioeconomic problems that will come with shifting to more sustainable lifestyles and methods? A family in India that can barely afford to buy enough rice to live off of isn't going to really give a damn about what's happening halfway across the planet, you know? In other words, forget the hand-waving and finger-pointing, and start working on solutions that, you know... work.

Most of us can see the need for environment-friendly construction.
Most of us don't want to pay the price, however.

On the other hand, not all environment-friendly construction methods HAVE to be extremely expensive. You just have to be creative.

For example, wind generators. Who said they had to be built on land? Coastal waters, just over the horizon, will work just as well. Just be careful not to plant them right in the middle of a shipping lane.

Another example: bio fuels. They've caused corn prices to rise, which means basic food prices are higher than ever. This affects everyone.
A better solution would be bio fuels based on non-food materials. And there's progress in this field too, in the Netherlands we have an experimental algae farm that produces an awesome amount of fermentable biomass per square meter. Another experimental setup is generating methane from cow manure - there's a couple of farms in the Netherlands that produce all the methane they need, even driving their tractors on it, and still have some excess to sell. There's a few quality control issues to solve yet, but the national energy company expects that methane from cow manure can be used nationwide within a couple of years.
The byproduct of cow manure methane is good quality fertilizer. No waste!

Replacing plastic packaging of goods by recyclable/recycled paper - why not? I've already seen it at work: some companies use crumpled paper for shock absorbers in their packaging instead of styrofoam.
It isn't that hard to do. It might be a little bit more expensive than plastic, but with the current oil prices I expect that plastic will be getting more expensive too.

Biggest problem of them all is that any solution to these questions - work, money, environment, energy - requires intelligent decision makers with a broad view. And as far as I know, decision makers compensate their almost universal lack of intelligence with greed and hunger for power.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

Down here, we have a pretty large area, in Palm Springs, where the whole related urban area is powered by wind energy. Unfortunately, it's much more expensive and not as reliable as your usual run of the mill electricity. So, what happens is prices go up, there's land and housing shortage because development can't proceed untill they are guaranteed utilities. Again, that drive up the prices.

*Biggest problem of them all is that any solution to these questions - work, money, environment, energy - requires intelligent decision makers with a broad view. And as far as I know, decision makers compensate their almost universal lack of intelligence with greed and hunger for power.

*I can't begin to speculate how to pull it off, but some sort of better regulation seems to be needed. For one, to stabilize the constuction highs an lows. Average 'job longevity' in construction, in this are is around 2 years. The builders tend to rush rush rush, build build build as quickly as they can while there's money to be made. Then when they flood the market with their product, it all goes in a hiatus for a few years till it all levels off. It's business 101, consequences of aggressive growth.
I doubt they will ever learn, the ways of running business this way has been the acheele'sheel of housing constructions since world war 2. Every 10 years, they trip over themselves and things go into a recession.

I remember about three years ago, in one of the local building industry meetings, there was this bigwig from one of the local universities (like UCLA or sumpthin) offering MBA's, giving us a dinner speech about how the home builders and land developers have gotten wiser and learned to read and plan their markets better, and will aboid the recession of early 90's. Guess what, this time around it's worse!!!!! Dim shits chasing the buck like dogs after a slobered up tennis ball.

And since the business isn't self regulating, and there's no big brother regulating, it becomes a cutthroat situation. If one or two home builders try to act responsibly, there's still going to be another 30 making a mess of things. They take their profits and pull up the anchor when things slow down, and leave the carnige behind them. This time teaming up with lenders. And the american public, well, they're chasing that proverbial american dream about as badly as the home builders are chasing profits.
The dream of owning a house... WTF? You don't own it, and can't possibly own it for 30 years. The damn bank owns it. It's harder to walk away from it and relocate if and when you need it. Most people don't own things free and clear, and most likely never will. With all the associations and regulations, there isn't that much more comfort then renting. It's the great american illusion.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

>> Till people like you are willing to pay the double or triple the price for eco-friendly solutions, there won't be demand for them.

And I do. So, yeah, I'm doing my part to keep it all to as much of a dull roar as possible. And yeah, it's sticking a pinky finger in a leaky dam... but at least it's goddam something.

But if you think I'm attacking you personally, move on, because there's nothing to see here. Yes, I realize it's going to take a major shift in our priorities to actually get something done, but folks like Tom are the ones you oughta be preaching at, not me. Those are the people who will look for any excuse not to change -- "it's too expensive! I need a job! It's all a bunch of tree-huggers anyway!"

Sorry, but that's bullshit. If we havent learned anything about climate change and our own impact on it in the last few years, then what the heck, let's collectively throw in the towel and be done with it, because we're gonna conitnue to turn a blind eye to a problem that's only get worse and worse the more we screw around.

And if you consider that whining, that's your issue, not mine. They murdered Cassandra, remember. Didnt change anything there either.

So yeah, suck it up. Life's tough. A lot of people dont have jobs. My own company may fall within the next year, but I'm making my own plans just in case that does happen. It doesnt take a degree in either Linux programming or rocket science to see the obvious when it's there.

And if that sounds cold, deal with it. Go make your own solution, because I'm fresh out.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Always... always, have a back up plan incase the shit hits the fan!

steve, it's a logical conclusion that diversion of corn to ethanol production in the states has caused
corn prices to rise world-wide, but it doesn't explain it well enough when everything else is
considered. as to whether apple computers are more eco-friendly than windows, AFAIK they're
all made in the same forced-labour factory camps in PRC, surrounded by the most vile
pollution and filth imaginable. however, i didn't actually read any of the above messages,
hence this may be off-topic. but the main reason for switching to OS X is the freedom
from viruses, trojans, spywares, worms, rootkits et al.

OS X isn't nearly as good as Jarvis

Nevermind, Tony was running the Jarvis platform on a MAC!

Quote - I didn't read the above replies, but the main reason is approx. 1.2 million viruses, rootkits,
trojans, spywares and worms affecting windows vs. approx. 25 (4 orders of magnitude less )
affecting OS X (all patched). how does one put a price on the damage done by windows
malware? perhaps a few dollars more is worth the security and stability.

The reason, as far as I understand Windows has so many Virus attacks is simple..There are more windows based OS. If your going to find a whole, writa an app to cause damage and risk the jail time involved in doing such, might as well get the biggest bang. why write an app thats only going to hit 20% of the population when you can attack the other 80% with the same effort.

I have considered going to MAC, but where my concerns are is the proprietary systems. With a PC I ahve more choice in which hardware I use. This choice though comes with the burden of an OS that is written to allow me that choice, and in turn may or may not function as well.

just my 2cents

aka MCDLabs
also known as Daniel Merrill a grumpy old disabled Jarhead.
checkout my freebies at
https://www.sharecg.com/pf/full_uploads.php?pf_user_name=mcdlabs

Quote - Most of us can see the need for environment-friendly construction.
Most of us don't want to pay the price, however.

Some don't... most can't.

Quote - For example, wind generators. Who said they had to be built on land? Coastal waters, just over the horizon, will work just as well. Just be careful not to plant them right in the middle of a shipping lane.

True - until you factor in the increased construction and maintenance costs due to storms, surf, salt water, whiny beachfront property owners slinging fistfuls of subpeonas...

But yeah - I agree that it doesn't necessarily have to be on land, or even wind-generated. We've done hydro for well over a century now. The point was though that it ain't cheap, ain't easy, and can be just as much of a pain-in-the-ass to build as a coal-fired plant. :)

Quote - Another example: bio fuels. They've caused corn prices to rise, which means basic food prices are higher than ever. This affects everyone. A better solution would be bio fuels based on non-food materials. And there's progress in this field too, in the Netherlands we have an experimental algae farm that produces an awesome amount of fermentable biomass per square meter.

Yep - and waste food materials are an awesome source if we can corral enough of it in one spot. Same with cow dung, waste wood, etc.

Quote - Biggest problem of them all is that any solution to these questions - work, money, environment, energy - requires intelligent decision makers with a broad view. And as far as I know, decision makers compensate their almost universal lack of intelligence with greed and hunger for power

You forgot one other factor - short-sightedness. Most only plan/look ahead to the next election, and don't think much about what their decisions will do 50 years from now. It's never easy to do that, but then leadership isn't supposed to be an easy job :)

Quote -

The reason, as far as I understand Windows has so many Virus attacks is simple..There are more windows based OS. If your going to find a whole, writa an app to cause damage and risk the jail time involved in doing such, might as well get the biggest bang. why write an app thats only going to hit 20% of the population when you can attack the other 80% with the same effort.

Question - since Macs account for nearly 10% of all consumer computers, how come the virus/malware percentage is statistically 0%, and not proportional?

(as someone who does this thing for a living, I already know why --call it a situation of easy marks vs. hardened targets.)

Quote - snipped diatribe before bothering to read

And if that sounds cold, deal with it. Go make your own solution, because I'm fresh out.

:lol: I never asked you for solution or symphaty. You inserted yourself in here errorneously thinking someone actually cares about what you have to say.

:rolleyes: Too bad Renderosity doesn't have ignore user feature. :rolleyes:

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote -

Quote - Biggest problem of them all is that any solution to these questions - work, money, environment, energy - requires intelligent decision makers with a broad view. And as far as I know, decision makers compensate their almost universal lack of intelligence with greed and hunger for power

You forgot one other factor - short-sightedness. Most only plan/look ahead to the next election, and don't think much about what their decisions will do 50 years from now. It's never easy to do that, but then leadership isn't supposed to be an easy job :)/P

You'd be surprized how much of that decision making is in the hands of local govermnets (city governments) whom are frequently in emotional knee jerk decision making mode to appease those whom scream the loudest.

Here's a crackup: There's a big trend across the coutnry, and especially in California for green and ECO measures. Yeah, right, wait till we get a week of heat in the summer, and they gobble up every kilowatt of electricity available (and fuels that make electricity) running air conditioning, and if the whole system gets overloaded and there's a brownout... they screeam bloody murder. Just think about how many fuels are burned to keep air conditioners running. Enough to make a minor ozone hole.

Like hell are people like that going to lift a finger to do something that requires a little bit of effort to 'save the environment'. All they do is talk about both sides of their mouth. When they're warm and cozy and comfy, they whine and bemoan about the global warming and rainforests. The minute their comfort is threathened, they turn into whiny children.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - > Quote -

The reason, as far as I understand Windows has so many Virus attacks is simple..There are more windows based OS. If your going to find a whole, writa an app to cause damage and risk the jail time involved in doing such, might as well get the biggest bang. why write an app thats only going to hit 20% of the population when you can attack the other 80% with the same effort.

Question - since Macs account for nearly 10% of all consumer computers, how come the virus/malware percentage is statistically 0%, and not proportional?

(as someone who does this thing for a living, I already know why --call it a situation of easy marks vs. hardened targets.)

Isn't Mac OS much less voulnerable because of how it was written? Doesn't have all theese security holes and voulnerabilities that MS-Cheapware has?

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Agreed. It's one thing to 'raise awareness', but once it's all raised, then what?

There is no pat answer, no easy solution, no silver bullet. "Tough Shit" isn't likely to win over many converts to whatever solutions do exist, and is likely to raise more hostility than sympathy.

This whole energy thing can easily lead to famine, disease, and outright wars. Think that China wouldn't invade oil-rich Siberia if the only other alternative is collapse and famine? Think that Europe wouldn't get a new-found sense of imperialistic ambition if they find themselves short on energy to the point of crisis? Think that ANWR in Alaska wouldn't have the shit drilled out of it once gas prices comprise more than 30% of the family budget? Heh... think again.

I am heartened that we're seeking solutions now, before it gets REALLY ugly.

Strangely enough, it wasn't governments that caused this impetus, it was the markets. Once gasoline shot up past $3 per gallon (average), folks realized that the artificially low prices of oil from the '90s (caused by Saudi Arabia flooding the market to pay off debts incurred during Desert Storm) weren't coming back, and that some hard choices will have to be made.

Hopefully, things like trains, commuter rails, carpooling, and a move back into urban areas will help out until economical means can be found to produce energy without drilling for it. On a personal note, I'm hoping it gives folks a reason to leave Earth entirely (think about it - in a space colony, all of your energy and consumption is pretty much produced in a local, sustainable manner... and there are literally endless piles of resources out there if you know where to find it and how to get it).

Quote -

Isn't Mac OS much less voulnerable because of how it was written? Doesn't have all theese security holes and voulnerabilities that MS-Cheapware has?

Exactly. A UNIX core is, by nature, untrusting of anything. There is a distinct and very tough to penetrate wall of separation between user memory and kernel memory. There are hard separations between user-launched apps and root-level apps. Files have always had hard permissions (to be fair, Windows added this when the NTFS file system came about, but not until Vista was there a hard default enforcement of them).

It isn't impossible to break into a Mac or Linux box and control it, but if you're a hacker, you'd better bring your 'A' game to do it. Script Kiddies need not apply.

*Strangely enough, it wasn't governments that caused this impetus, it was the markets. Once gasoline shot up past $3 per gallon (average), folks realized that the artificially low prices of oil from the '90s (caused by Saudi Arabia flooding the market to pay off debts incurred during Desert Storm) weren't coming back, and that some hard choices will have to be made.

Yeah, Maybe our Government was hoping that Iraq would turn into another saudi arabia, and pay us for ahem liberating them with another few years or a decade of cheap oil. This whole Iraq thing too is sort of to protect the standard of living of the masses in th US. The masses don't want the war, but they also don't want their comforts messed with. Beats me if I know of a solution.

I remember when I was in college, I wrote an essay about how I'd love to live on a small island living with animals and pets. The whole social, societal and government thing is too complicated for my math oriented brain. If I have to depend on others for a solution... I don't want to play that game.

Of course, much like everyone else, I'm not exactly volunteering to give up too many of my or my family's comforts. Normal human nature. I'm no exception.

*Hopefully, things like trains, commuter rails, carpooling, and a move back into urban areas will help out until economical means can be found to produce energy without drilling for it. On a personal note, I'm hoping it gives folks a reason to leave Earth entirely (think about it - in a space colony, all of your energy and consumption is pretty much produced in a local, sustainable manner... and there are literally endless piles of resources out there if you know where to find it and how to get it).

*Here in southern California Many planned communities are starting to realize there is more and more interest in 'downtown' style living, instead of widely spread out subdivisions where one has to drive 20-30 miles to work. They're building pretty nice apartments across the street from commercial buildings, and shopping, so you really no longer need to own a car for your daily living. Much like it is in Europe where I grew up.

With the exception of a lot of people in this area having to get used to apartment style living and the adjustment may cause some whining, I think it's a move in a positive direction. Hey, I grew up in a euro-style apartment, and have never lived in a typical american style house till I was 33. It's not the end of the world. This downtown apartment living will also cause a lot of people to have to walk and excercise more (another good thing).

Where I grew up, you don't see very many morbidly obese people (with the exception of those whom truly have serious medical problems). It takes a lot more physical effort to get through the day over there, much more walking, even for people with minor physical problems. Almost no opportunities to sit in a car and got to a 4000 calorie drive-through for dinner.

You have to walk couple of blocks to get groceries, carry them home, and then cook your own dinner - you get half an hour to an hour of aerobic and a little bit of weight training just getting dinner :lol:

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - This whole energy thing can easily lead to famine, disease, and outright wars. Think that China wouldn't invade oil-rich Siberia if the only other alternative is collapse and famine? Think that Europe wouldn't get a new-found sense of imperialistic ambition if they find themselves short on energy to the point of crisis? Think that ANWR in Alaska wouldn't have the shit drilled out of it once gas prices comprise more than 30% of the family budget? Heh... think again.

Of course they would. Same reason why there was a war when my old country decided to split into several different countries (Croatia). The one with military strength, and not a lot more then just agriculture) tried to usurp the regions with a lot of other natural resources. (Energy, minig, tourism) People think it's 'ethnic' or 'religious' causes. They're not, it's just modernized territorial tribal warfare. Each tribe wants the best piece of land, so they can thrive. If that means killing off the neighbors, well... that's what's got 'humans' to the top of a food chain. Us 'humans' are nowhere near as 'humane' as we would like to think we are.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Question for MAC Computer Users