Quote-"Personally I don't WANT a new "look" to have to learn.. I want changes under the hood, improvements, and new features."

That's coming from a self proclaimed Poser beta tester. Now see folks all the big shot insiders with Poser feel the same way it would seem; so don't ever expect any clever changes because they don't WANT a new interface to have to learn. Further I would guess that they don't WANT it to be that hard for their buddies to make add-ons for it either like WW. Or should we say leave the door open? Actually the add-ons for Poser show more imagination and creativity, but to get them you'll have to add more to the COST of the program itself kind of like they talk about D/S not being free if you want more bells and whistles. So keep adding to the cost of that program called Poser Pro or any version before it for more function. Things that should have eventually became included with Poser. If they don't want it to be considered "modular" that is. Maybe they do though.

Things that would have needed a place within/on the interface perhaps, but they don't WANT it to change. Things that would have made it SELL better. I bet poser's "friends" wouldn't make as much money selling 3rd party add ons for Poser then. There would be no need for them anymore.

So hey, GIVE us the base program and we'll buy the "niffty" add ons, but as it is now they even want us to pay for the better updates. I'm ready to give up on Poser because they don't upgrade it to it's potential because it crush their "friends" add on markets for Poser.

dogor,

Quote - Quote-"Personally I don't WANT a new "look" to have to learn.. I want changes under the hood, improvements, and new features."

That's coming from a self proclaimed Poser beta tester. Now see folks all the big shot insiders with Poser feel the same way it would seem; so don't ever expect any clever changes because they don't WANT a new interface to have to learn.

IF this part is indeed true, then it is a curiosity.

To be honest, the absolute worst thing in the world for any programming team is to be surrounded by 'yes' men. Challenge what's there, pick it apart... but for the love of all that is Holy, do NOT simply demand status quo.

My desires for a new interface or not have nothing at all to do with pose developement.. they do whatever they want to, and I just bust whatever I can, and send in bug reports, and bug them for new features or tweaks I'd like to see personally.

They don't ask testers if they would like things network rendering, collada support, ect. Testers are to take what they do, and see if it actually does what it's supposed to do, and to see if any legacy features become busted along the way.

And the interface works fine for my needs. I wasn't overly thrilled with the zbrush interface either, but again, now that I've learned it, it again works for my needs.

And I don't create poser plugin stuff... but I do want all the nifty plugin things out there to work, especially if they are in my workflow.

Quite a number of my feature requests have been built into poser over the years, and that's my main incentive to be a tster.. to get things not only fixed as best as possible, but also to streamline workflow, and make poser developement as fast as possible within the app itself.

Plus I'm also practical when it comes to developement. Budgets allow only so many man hours of developement work for any company, and you have to set realistic goals.

I've been a beta tester for quite a few companies, utilities, plugins and the like. And I also gave them hell when I saw the low res supplied figures, since they already have so much legacy content, there really wasn't a need for them at all.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - I've been a beta tester for quite a few companies, utilities, plugins and the like. And I also gave them hell when I saw the low res supplied figures, since they already have so much legacy content, there really wasn't a need for them at all.

So what was their official response to you when you told them those figures sucked?

Since internal communications from them are covered by the NDA, I can't really say anything about that.

But th jist of the conversation was that they just wanted some new redistributable base figures for free release developement, and for that purpose, they suffice.

I don;t think they really cased is they looks more realistic or not.. that wasn't the intent of them.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

thanks for everyone opinions. i like it, i just thought they would update the menu also is all i was annoyed with :) for those coming in with a smart mouth replies, it aint that serious LOL

Quote - It was just added a week or so ago.. lemme see if I can find it...

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=62059

judging by he replies to this product, i wasnt the only one annoyed at the library LOL :)

Quote - If you hate it that much get a refund.

[img]http://farm1.static.flickr.com/52/128459416_fe90f2cd22.jpg[/img]

Marque Joined: 31 Mar 2000 Posts: 10580 Last Post: 15 May 08 [homepage] Posted Thu, May 15, 2008 6:07 pm

Quote - If you hate it that much get a refund.

....

Quote - new Poser same crappy menu and library. oh im sooo disappointed. if it wasnt for the name at top i would of thought it was Poser 6/7 CLICK PIC TO ENLARGE

Well, I can sum up my impressions of the new poser pro easily enough. Massively overpriced minor upgrade pack.

Think that pretty much says it all - lol.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

Quote - My desires for a new interface or not have nothing at all to do with pose developement.. they do whatever they want to, and I just bust whatever I can, and send in bug reports, and bug them for new features or tweaks I'd like to see personally.

They don't ask testers if they would like things network rendering, collada support, ect. Testers are to take what they do, and see if it actually does what it's supposed to do, and to see if any legacy features become busted along the way.

And the interface works fine for my needs. I wasn't overly thrilled with the zbrush interface either, but again, now that I've learned it, it again works for my needs.

And I don't create poser plugin stuff... but I do want all the nifty plugin things out there to work, especially if they are in my workflow.

Quite a number of my feature requests have been built into poser over the years, and that's my main incentive to be a tster.. to get things not only fixed as best as possible, but also to streamline workflow, and make poser developement as fast as possible within the app itself.

Plus I'm also practical when it comes to developement. Budgets allow only so many man hours of developement work for any company, and you have to set realistic goals.

I've been a beta tester for quite a few companies, utilities, plugins and the like. And I also gave them hell when I saw the low res supplied figures, since they already have so much legacy content, there really wasn't a need for them at all.

Hey, if you get a chance - you know, if it comes up at all, try bending there ear about the lighting system.. That's always think I been one of the biggest horror stories in Poser. Granted, I find the directory interface annoying myself - If they are going to do a directory thing it could be done much better than that, but the biggest stumbling block to my work flow in poser is the lighting.

Even a pretty simple addition, like the ability to select a light and then move it to a location under the cursor by holding downt he shift key and clicking a mouse button would be a huge improvement. Trying to move lights with the parameter dials is a nightmare, and even looking crosseyed at that round ball that controls where the lights are positioned and rotated will cause it to change settings, the slightest mouse click in that area can send the light off 100 degrees in another direction.

Understand that your role as a beta tester limits the amount of input you have over the final product, but if you ever get that "what do you think" question about the interface, that would be a good place to start IMHO.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

It's safe to assume the high end market was targeted to pay for this release. The customer base I've seen is mostly hobbyists. They want new content. They like new features in Poser for the content in scenes. Quite a few of them can't afford the programs they built the plug-ins for in this version. A limited number of plugins at that.

It's funny you should bring up budget Gareee. I would imagine that building and maintaining plugins or bridges for these high end apps is complicated and expensive. It uses lots of man hours to develope and fine tune. As time goes by the high end apps will update also and of course Poser plugins will need to upgrade with them. Now here is the question I want to ask you Gareee. What kind of impact do you think that is going to have on development of Poser itself in the future if Poser Pro fails? We already see it literally wiped out the content in the package. With no new content the merchants will only have Daz content to build for and texture for income along with other independent builders stuff. If Daz builds a rigging plugin and catches up a little with Poser's bells and whistles while Poser pursues the complicated high end market with no new content of their own plus Daz becomes less Poser compatible over time, what's to keep hobbyists using Poser? With no new content features of their own to build for. What future improvements need to be made that revolve around the Poser communities income which centers around content? Without their own new content Poser is dead for lack of need to ever change or adapt. Really you exposed the problem. Budget. You have enough to do just so much. If you pursue the high end market trade then you might not have enough money left for content development which ends up employing the Poser community. Without the Poser community working, Poser won't sell. No new content. No new features to build content for texture or sell. They find a meal ticket elsewhere.

dogor,

Kepp in mind this is just speculation, but a poser release without new content actually invigorates the content creation market, doesn't hamper it.

The desire for content using the new features will be there, and merchants can take advantage of that, with new products, and robust sales.

Besides, there's already a HUGE amount of content that comes with poser already anyway. I KNOW I've never gone through all the provided content to even see what's there, and many times over, we've seen people hunting for a freebie, that they already had sitting there from a base install.

Probably a better business model for SM, might be to put provided content into their store, much like daz does, and make it free for registered poser xx users.

That way the base poser download is MUCH smaller, and customers get in the habit "shopping" in the CP store for the free items. (And odds are, pick up a few purchased items at the same time.)

AS far as DS adding new features, there are a HUGE number of complaints about the current build.. with everything from content location issues, JCMs being totally broken, Scaling being partially broken, you name it.

We've heard about rigging enhancements now for 2 years now.. yet nothing has surfaced, and we're seeing even more bugs, and even more incompatibility surface as well. And many DS users are becoming frustrated by DS developement, and are using older versions, rather then using the most recent version.. NOT a good sign at ALL.

Daz has even said that when/if they add thier dynamic cloth plugin, it might NOT allow customers to create thier own clothing content, that creation might end up a daz kept advantage for marketing.. surely a step backwards compared to the flexibility of the poser cloth room. Heck, many people use it for morph target creation, or even just general soft similated content creation, like a tablecloth.

And while many might see "high end 3d apps" as being the elite "expensive" market, priced have actually dropped over time, to the point where IMHO they are actually consumer priced.

Example: Lightwave USED to cost over $4000.. now it's $900! (And keep in mind the dollar has also devalued more hen 50% during that same timeframe, making that pricepoint even cheaper.)

And PC power has also constant;ly been on the increase.. the $1080 I spent on my Atari 800 25 years ago, now buys a powerful quad core pc!

It could be, that while Daz tries to entice and drive prices down, that SM is trying to get poser situated higher up the food chain, where content creators can actually survive with a living wage selling thier items.

Poser content has dropped in perceived value and price steadily, while it's creation has become more complex and feature rich over time. Some people think less then 10% of poser content creators can actually make a living wage doing it.. and that's a BIG head's up that something is wrong.

Prices on poser content are at mass market levels, however the mass market doesn't really exist to support that marketing strategy.

Good example: Eggs in the US used to cost 98 cents a dozen. Now they cost $2.50-$3.00 a dozen.. yet Daz's Platinum prices have remained at 1.99. IF poser content was keeping up with the economic changes, plat club content would now cost $5.99! (And that just one small example, in JUST the last year.)

While everyone (myself included) loves a great deal, the fact of the matter is that poser content creators are NOT making what they should creating content. So they have two choices: reduce thier prices, hoping a few extra sales might keep them in the game, or they move n up to the professional 3d world, and we loose our best n brightest stars.

Another great comparison that comes to mind, as craftmen (and women). I live in area where hand made crafts are very popular, and handicrafts make a LOT more money per hour on their sales then poser content does.

Surely someone who creates digital content should be able to make the same living as a basket weaver, or a quiltmaker?

I just don't see giving away more free stuff, and maintaining lower and lower prices as being any way to keep the poserverse thriving at all. At one point in time, it brought new customers to the marketplace, but not enough actual buying customers to support the market.

Positioning poser back up to respectable 3d application levels might be the only thing that actually saves the poserverse, from loosing it's best content creation talent, and having that replace by all the "quick n dirty" "anything for a fast buck" products that infest the marketplace now.

And as a close, I don't see the "high end market" as being applications under $1000 at all. Where people used to buy a big tv for $400, now they buy a flatscreen for almost $2000! Yeah, this possible shift in the poserverse might hurt all those people that joined running windows 98, and a 8 year old pc, but odds are, they are also not the ones buying enough content to keep the gears of the poser marketplace well oiled as well.

And I myself have been guilty just like many others, or undervaluing poser content, and I also need to make a mental change to support good qualiy creators.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I am not a beta tester for SM, but I also will chime in that I do not want the interface to change, I for one like it :)

♠Ω Poser eZine Ω♠
♠Ω Poser Free Stuff Ω♠
♠Ω My Homepage Ω♠

www.3rddimensiongraphics.net

Quote - That way the base poser download is MUCH smaller, and customers get in the habit "shopping" in the CP store for the free items. (And odds are, pick up a few purchased items at the same time.)

Unfortunately CP has driven away quite a few customers from that market.

Quote -
Another great comparison that comes to mind, as craftmen (and women). I live in area where hand made crafts are very popular, and handicrafts make a LOT more money per hour on their sales then poser content does.

Surely someone who creates digital content should be able to make the same living as a basket weaver, or a quiltmaker?

Unfortunately that particular comparison falls way short of the target. Physical merchandise is not licensed. It is sold! The recent flap cause by Poserworld threatening a customer if they didn't delete the content that they purchased has opened a tear in many people's trust when it comes to forking over their hard earned cash for digital media which may be revoked by the licensor at the drop of a hat.

Digital media also has a limited shelf life, as shown by the actual software itself when new and pricey updates come out making older versions undesireable at best, obsolete at worst. Take Virtual Fashion for instance. Since the crashing of the original machines I ordered and installed it on, it now no longer works for me. It won't install on my new machines because I'm using a version the creators no longer support. They want us to upgrade to the newest version when the version I have would suit me just fine if I could install it and get it working.

Newer is not always better as you've just pointed out regarding DS and it's current state.

I'm sure I'm also not alone in no longer rushing to buy the latest and greatest when I now have hard drives glutted with unused content and software, both purchased and free and stacks of CD's sitting on the shelves with more. Like it or not, the customer base is not an endless well of funds and many of us are discovering how to make things on our own or just make do with what we have. The tides are changing my friend and merchants are going to have to change with it. The customers already are.

Many quality merchants have already adapted.. they left for far greener pastures.

I'm sure if the profitability would have been more robust, we'd still see Neftis, Curio, Anton, and many others still creating poser content.

And of note, all of those named I mentioned put out outstanding products, and were very popular.

What we're seeing now though, is many long time content creators trying to decide if this is really worth continuing doing, and a plethora of new "merchants' flooding the marketplace with feature poor, and in some cases, just plain bad quality merchandise to replace the vaccum created by some of the legacy content creators leaving.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

*It was just added a week or so ago.. lemme see if I can find it...

*http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?ViewProduct=62059

Thanks Gareee! I missed the post completely, normally I do receive ebots, but for some reason I missed the one for this thread.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

My pleasure! I still haven't had the time to grab it and try it, but another Daz PA HIGHLY recommended it.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

I was actually looking forward to seeing G3 and maybe G4 figures come out with future Poser releases.

I see your point about content not making as much money on one hand, but then on the other it could be the way it's being marketed sometimes. Free stuff is a fact and some people love to make it and provide it. They do free because they just like too. That's not going away.

We'll see how this strategy works out for Smith's Poser in the long run. I see Poser users with free modelers all the time and can't afford even 8 or 900 bucks. The fact is there are some really good free modelers available for download now that a few years ago were not available or as developed; so yes the prices are coming down and getting more affordable. Some people just don't want to build their own stuff though. They like it already to use and would rather just create a scene and render. Let's hope they don't pirate it from a friend.

Eventually the content Poser has will grow old and out dated. Some of it already has and is. It seemed to me that as Poser grew so did the content. It's going to be interesting to see how Poser grows technically without it's own content packages. I never looked at the figures in Poser as free, but part of the purchase price and it was cheaper than buying them individually. Thanks Gareee.

dogor,

You kinda skipped over the whole comparison thing there. Do you honestly think creating digital content should be paid comperable to those hand crafted artesians who actually have to MAKE 10,000 copies of their hand crafts in order to make their money, when digital content artists make it once and just send out copies?

Example: Let us say a Digital artist spends 500 hours making one 3D model and sells 1000 copies of it. All he/she is out in expenses are time and a small percentage of what they paid for the software tools they used to create said item. A Handcrafted merchant spends 500 hours actually making 1000 copies of a wicker basket. If all 1000 copies of that basket don't sell. They're out not just time and tools expenses. They're out material costs for the unsold items along with transportation costs for sold items as well. A Digital merchant only has to run off CD copies of their merchandise as needed if they aren't downloaded to begin with.

Sure some of the great artists left for greener pastures. That's to be expected of any kind of carreer minded individual. We still have plenty of great merchants still around making great quality items. Stonemason, You, Steve Shanks at PoserWorld, the list still goes on. Not all the merchants who left, left for strictly financial reasons.

Don't tell people that LostinSpaceman. Everyone will be trying to make digital content and the price will just keep going down. Pretty soon you won't be able to get $40.00 for a soccer ball anymore. It's a niche trade. Poor people stay away your sucking the life out of Poser. lol

dogor,

Sorry, I forgot this is the ghetto. lol

dogor,

Whoops! :tt2: Wait! Don't tell them what? That they only have to make the item once?

Lostinspaceman, some poser content creators are lucky if the make 2/3rds of minimum wage on thier products. How long do you think you could feed your family on $6 a hour?

And I myself amlost quit doing poser cntent after an almost abysmal year. Even though I had more products available, I made less last year then the two previous years... and we aren't taking a little less, we're talking a LOT less.

I do this full time, and yet by September last year, my total sales for the year were less then $4000. (That comes out to about $440 a MONTH... barely over $100 a week for professional 3d work, or about $2.50 an hour.) And some content creators are "envious" of my success! LOL!

I was lucky though, a few outstanding selling products in october and november kept me in the game a little longer. if I was the single bread winner for our hosehold, I would have given this up 3 years ago, but since my wife makes the majority of our money, this gives me the freedom to take care of household stuff, as well as bringing "play money" into our household. My income makes extra payments on credit cards, and gives up extra cash to buy things we'd like, but couldn't afford on just a one income salary.

So don't tell my how craftsmen have it so much harder because they have to create multiple products, when they are making $15-$20 at their trade, and I'm lucky if I'm making minumum wage at mine.

There were estimates a year ago, that more then 70% of poser content creators that are full time, make $12,000 a year or LESS. That averages out to about $6.25 an hour, showing clearly that 3d content creation for poser is VERY undervalued. You'd think the skilled trade of quality 3d content creation would pay better then someone who weaves baskets.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - Lostinspaceman, some poser content creators are lucky if the make 2/3rds of minimum wage on thier products. How long do you think you could feed your family on $6 a hour?

And I myself amlost quit doing poser cntent after an almost abysmal year. Even though I had more products available, I made less last year then the two previous years... and we aren't taking a little less, we're talking a LOT less.

I do this full time, and yet by September last year, my total sales for the year were less then $4000. (That comes out to about $440 a MONTH... barely over $100 a week for professional 3d work, or about $2.50 an hour.) And some content creators are "envious" of my success! LOL!

I was lucky though, a few outstanding selling products in october and november kept me in the game a little longer. if I was the single bread winner for our hosehold, I would have given this up 3 years ago, but since my wife makes the majority of our money, this gives me the freedom to take care of household stuff, as well as bringing "play money" into our household. My income makes extra payments on credit cards, and gives up extra cash to buy things we'd like, but couldn't afford on just a one income salary.

So don't tell my how craftsmen have it so much harder because they have to create multiple products, when they are making $15-$20 at their trade, and I'm lucky if I'm making minumum wage at mine.

There were estimates a year ago, that more then 70% of poser content creators that are full time, make $12,000 a year or LESS. That averages out to about $6.25 an hour, showing clearly that 3d content creation for poser is VERY undervalued. You'd think the skilled trade of quality 3d content creation would pay better then someone who weaves baskets.

Just curious, but do you think Smith Micro charging more than twice what Poser used to cost is going to fix that? Not arguing with your figures here, just wondering about the overall logic. I don't see how Smith Micro's inflating of poser pricing is going to really do much in the way of helping out the content creators.

Right now Posers market is pretty much the hobbyist. That won't change, not unless Smith Micro decides to bring Poser on par with the myriad of other programs you can get in the $500 range that have features that Poser can only dream of at this point.

Don't get me wrong, I love Poser - it works great for what I use it for, and I don't need a $500 3d app for what I use Poser to do, which is why I bought it in the first place. But SM is entering an already established market with a program that is woefully behind the curve when compared with everything else in that price range and expecting to make inroads with a couple of add ons that allow you to integrate with higher end 3d apps that you need to plunk down a chunk of change on seperately.

I just don't see that happening for a variety of different reasons, and even if it did I don't see that it's going to really affect the prices of content or the profit margin of content creators. If anything I think it would depress it, rather than stimulate it. Your looking at fewer new users, and if they do manage to capture even a small market share of the "pro" market these are folks that for the most part are not going to spend much money on something they could model themselves with there own high end 3d app that they are using Poser to support.

So while I certainly sympathize with your plight, I don't see Smith Micro's ham handed bumbling marketing strategy to be anything remotely close to the answer to your prayers, in fact quite the opposite. They are going to probably depress the number of new Poser users because the app is now going to be out of the price range of most hobbyists, and thus the number of people looking for content will decrease dramatically.

Those of us who've been using poser for years will probably stick it out a bit longer at least, but like one of the previous folks mentioned most of us have oodles and oodles of stuff already, and we don't really buy things as frequently as a newbie with no content to his name would. We're looking for the best bang for our buck, so what we do buy is going to be the high quality stuff, which of course means the content creator has to spend a lot more time on it, which further depresses his/her profit margin.

So I'd have to disagree with you that Smith Micro's new and "improved" pricing structure is going to do content creators any good at all, I just don't see that happening.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

I don't see it affecting things either way.. sure some lower end consumer sales will suffer, but some prosumer customers will fill some of that void, and that have more disposable income, because they are doing commercial work.

And comparitively, poser pro costs really no more then poser 7 did.. look at how much staples like milk, eggs, or gas have gone up in price since poser 7's release. The us dollar has also devalued about 30% in that time frame, so to make the same amount of money they did before, poser pro has to cost more.

If people can afford $69 for videogames, $800 for video game consoles, $40 for blue ray movies, surely the value is there for poser pro.

Everythings spiralling up in cost... no one likes it, but it's a fact of life. here's another great example: Hulk toys for the first movie came out at $4.99. For the new movie, they are retailing at $14.99! Triple the cost.

Why do I mention that? Hulk came out about the same time as Poser 7. So if they both increased in cost the same percent, Poser pro should cost 2/3rd MORE then poser 7. (Yet it doesn't at all.)

or look at eggs... $69 cents a dozen back then, $3.20 a dozen now. or milk.. $1.29 a gallon then, $3.50 a gallon now.

We won't even mention how much gas has gone up in the same timeframe.

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

Quote - I don't see it affecting things either way.. sure some lower end consumer sales will suffer, but some prosumer customers will fill some of that void, and that have more disposable income, because they are doing commercial work.

And comparitively, poser pro costs really no more then poser 7 did.. look at how much staples like milk, eggs, or gas have gone up in price since poser 7's release. The us dollar has also devalued about 30% in that time frame, so to make the same amount of money they did before, poser pro has to cost more.

If people can afford $69 for videogames, $800 for video game consoles, $40 for blue ray movies, surely the value is there for poser pro.

Everythings spiralling up in cost... no one likes it, but it's a fact of life. here's another great example: Hulk toys for the first movie came out at $4.99. For the new movie, they are retailing at $14.99! Triple the cost.

Why do I mention that? Hulk came out about the same time as Poser 7. So if they both increased in cost the same percent, Poser pro should cost 2/3rd MORE then poser 7. (Yet it doesn't at all.)

or look at eggs... $69 cents a dozen back then, $3.20 a dozen now. or milk.. $1.29 a gallon then, $3.50 a gallon now.

We won't even mention how much gas has gone up in the same timeframe.

Sorry, no sale. Most of the other products you mention require suppliers and what not moving actual physical goods from one location to another. As there costs in fuel consumption and such go up, so do the cost of their end products. That just makes sense.

However I seriously doubt Smith Micro recently gave everyone that worked on poser a raise equivalent to 2/3 increase in there salary to compensate them for the gas they use to get to work, in fact I'd be willing to wager they haven't.

So Smith Micro's costs on a purely intellectual product haven't changed on iota. I also don't see all the other 3d app makers nearly tripling the costs of there products.. and thank goodness - or we'd all be in serious trouble.

Nope, Smith Micro's new pricing scheme is a bad one, plain and simple. Pros who can afford a $500 outlay probably won't buy Poser - too many other apps in that price range will do what poser can do and more.

Also I don't see a lot of pros using purchased content all that often - honestly most of them avoid it for a variety of reasons. Sure, a few do here and there, but as to the vast majority of them I'd say that's probably not the case. They do most of there own modeling and rigging, because, well, they are pros. That's what they get paid to do. Shops that can afford animators and graphic artists can also afford to have a modeller or two on staff, heck half the time most of the people in each of those categories have all three in there skill set.

So the "pro" market that might be interested in pre-done content is probably going to be mostly your small "ma and pop" type outfits, places that need to generate quickly and don't have the time, resources or inclination to do all there own modeling.

Personally if I were such a Pro and didn't already own a copy of Poser I wouldn't be buying a new copy of it anytime soon, and neither would anyone else with half a brain. Just way too many other 3d apps already in that price range that stomp Poser into the dirt in almost every category you can name. It would be a piss poor investment to say the least.

If I am such a "pro" and already have Poser, well, guess what, odds are good I already have more content for it than I know what to do with already. Personally I haven't bought much content, I enjoy doing my own modeling and rigging - that's really my area of interest with Poser to begin with so I make most of my own stuff or modify free stuff to suit my needs.

But even with that I have content coming out of my ears. And honestly, how many V3 or V4 miniskirts do I really need for goodness sake? Don't get me wrong, I've seen some really great quality content coming out in the community - wonderful stuff. But for a true pro you just don't have the kind of market you have with the amatuer who can't do that kind of modelling or rigging themselves. That's the market that keeps poser content creators working and making money, like it or not.

Sure, a pro will buy a few things now and again - but there purchases will be a lot less frequent and they are going to be a lot pickier about what they buy. That's all there is too it. So, you have a lot less market with pro's to begin with, and your not going to get a lot of pros buying the new Poser and needing content for it because the new Poser is ridiculously overpriced and under-featured when compared to programs in the same price range as it currently resides.

Add that to the fact that Poser already has a bad name in the pro community, and your looking at a serious lose lose all the way around.

Hey, I understand you create content and want to be paid a decent living wage for your work, I really do - in fact I'd really like to see that too. But as far as Poser jacking it's prices through the roof being the answer to that problem, not by any stretch of the imagination.

Best talk to your wife and see if she can pickup some OT at work, because mark my words, your sales this next year will be a lot worse than they were in previous years, regardless of how good your products are or how many you put out. The content market is going to suffer for Smith Micro's serious miscalculation in marketing strategy, just a matter of time.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

...and the sky is falling... ;)

Way too many people take way too many things way too seriously.

*Best talk to your wife and see if she can pickup some OT at work, because mark my words, your sales this next year will be a lot worse than they were in previous years, regardless of how good your products are or how many you put out. The content market is going to suffer for Smith Micro's serious miscalculation in marketing strategy, just a matter of time.

I agree with you. Just look at the arch-viz market or what used to be.

Quote - *Best talk to your wife and see if she can pickup some OT at work, because mark my words, your sales this next year will be a lot worse than they were in previous years, regardless of how good your products are or how many you put out. The content market is going to suffer for Smith Micro's serious miscalculation in marketing strategy, just a matter of time.

I agree with you. Just look at the arch-viz market or what used to be.

Exactly. It will be a slow process of attrition at first, not many new users coming into poser and a lot of us older folks who are in the hobbyist realm starting to look at other options provided Smith Micro doesn't wise up and and at the very least set there upgrade pricing to a reasonable level. I'm sure not paying $200 for an upgrade to a program who's full version only cost me $150, particularly when the upgrade itself could best be described as minor.

They have very little to offer the professional market at this stage, the firefly renderer can't even keep up with some rendering engines that are free and being developed under GNU licenses for goodness sake. I've seen at least one that gives higher quality renders at better speeds.

The "integration" thing will be short lived too - collada is pretty much going to gaurantee that. Won't be long before most of the better 3d applications can talk to each other, and why pay $500 for Poser when you can get another, much more feature rich app for the same price? Just doesn't make sense.

So really Smith Micro had better have somebody in the marketing department sober up and soon, realize what a huge, major league, uber bonehead manuever they've made and fix it, or the Poser market is going to get hit and get hit hard.

It will start slow at first. Not many new poser users will mean a decrease in over all sales for all artists out there. There still be a market for some time to come, don't get me wrong, but sales will start to decline.

Pretty soon if Smith Micro decides to continue on this fools errand, a lot of us older Poser users are going to start poking around for other applications that will allow give us better features at more reasonable prices, or if we are going to pay the $500 bend over and bark rate at least were going to get a real pro 3d app for our money. I'm not paying $500 for poser pro only to get nailed for another $200 a few months or a year from now when they put out there next minor upgrade. Pass. If I'm going to have to spend that kinda dough to stay in the 3d hobby then I'm buying a real pro package and getting reasonable upgrade rates for my troubles.

Eventually somebody will write an aftermarket utility to convert poser native formats to collada so they can be imported into most other 3d apps, and then Poser is going to start dying a slow, painful death as is it's market.

Poser does have a strong, entrenched market, so it will take time, but it will eventually happen. You just can't take a hyundai and try to sell it at the same price as a mercedes, no matter how many free CD's you give out for the hyndai's stereo system. It just doesn't work.

My guess is though that Smith Micro will do one of two things, either they will realize what a really dunderheaded idea that was and switch gears to save poser, or they will sell it off to another company who will hopefully have a marketing division that isn't doing crack, and realize that they can't run away from the only market they have and survive.

I think Poser's market will be strong enough that it will survive long enough for one of those two things to occur, probably most likely the later rather than the former. But either way it's going to hurt like hell in the meantime.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

I don't think SM is the only one to blame. DAZ has a part in it also. More and more people get tired of DAZ's aggressive sales tactics. People had enough of the back to back sales. There are more and more complains at DAZ's sites about the sales. I've stopped purchasing at DAZ completely, I'm getting sick of their sales and their constantly untrue sales slogans started to bother me lately. I do think I've developed a DAZ sales phobia and I know I'm not the only one. I got really tired of their various newsletters screaming at me and the constant begging for me to purchase more and more of the same old stuff I've been purchasing for years.

CP isn't much of an alternative these days anymore, since it gets flooded by 2 merchants or merchants groups, Qraffix & 3-D Arena giving paga after page of their new items and I hardly can tell one from the other anymore, they're all starting to look a-like a lot. After Rendo & RDNA left CP and these 2 merchants started flooding CP, I kind of lost interest.

If you really want my money you should offer your items at RDNA also...... nice and quiet site. Easy to navigate, doesn't scream at me all the time and doesn't get flooded by 100's of items that all look kind of similar to me.

BUT..... there's another reason I think the Poser market is suffering. It's a relative small market and way too many merchants operate on it. They all want a piece of the pie and the pieces are getting smaller and smaller with all the new merchants trying to operate on the market.

Part of the problem lies with some of the merchants not being totally honest about their income. I know some (like Garee, Stonemason & Faveral) have been very honest about their income, but others have pretended to make a lot of money from their content, more then enough to life an easy life. Such (untrue) statements have drawn new merchants like flies making it even harder to operate on this market.

I've considered many times to make content available (besides the games I do offer), but refrained from it. A lot of work involved, yet no guaranteed returns. I've operated quite succesfull creating games content for a while (not for Poser), but the work involved was tremendous. It's no different for creating Poser content and yet that market is way smaller then the one I operated on.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

Quote - ...and the sky is falling... ;)

Well, if you can't argue the facts, say something silly instead I guess.. lol..

No, the sky isn't falling, but everything I said is right on the money and my guess is you realize that or I would have gotten a more substantive reply. No biggie either way really, I'm not making any money of this proposition one way or the other.

But I do know enough about business and marketing to realize that SM has stepped in it, big time, and I think a lot of other people are beginning to realize it too.

Hey, I've played around a bit with Poser Pro 7 - it's not a bad program. Damn sure isn't worth the $200 upgrade price they want for it though. And yes, I'll probably still have Poser on my drive for some time to come, and occasionally I'll by a product or two from an artist/developer.

But like most of the folks that have been doing this for a while I don't buy much regularly, not because I think that the stuff in the marketplace isn't worth it, far from it - it just isn't all that useful to me because I've got more crap than I know what to do with now.

New users aren't going to plunk down $500 on Poser, not when they can get better apps at the same price, and I don't know about you but I sure don't spend $500 on computer software without doing some reading first to find out whats out there and whats going to be best for my needs. So other than a few clueless souls who have more money than sense, Poser isn't getting many new users at those prices.

And while they might get a few folks to pay $200 for the upgrade price, I don't see that being all that well recieved either. Personally I'm not upgrading to Pro and I damn sure won't be buying whatever version comes out after that unless it is both reasonably priced and offers a good value for my money.

So hey, applaud SM's moronic decision all you want, but trust me, it's going to bite you and every other Poser vendor in the butt, only question is, how hard and for how long.

Like I said, I do think that poser content makers are not getting compensated enough and they deserve better money for there efforts, but trust me, SM's retarded overpricing of Poser is not going to make that happen. Not by a long shot.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

Quote - I don't think SM is the only one to blame. DAZ has a part in it also. More and more people get tired of DAZ's aggressive sales tactics. People had enough of the back to back sales. There are more and more complains at DAZ's sites about the sales. I've stopped purchasing at DAZ completely, I'm getting sick of their sales and their constantly untrue sales slogans started to bother me lately. I do think I've developed a DAZ sales phobia and I know I'm not the only one. I got really tired of their various newsletters screaming at me and the constant begging for me to purchase more and more of the same old stuff I've been purchasing for years.
.

Nope, SM isn't the only culprit of course, but they certainly aren't helping matters much. But if the market sucked when the program cost $150, can't for the life of me figure out how putting a couple of minor extra features into the program and charging $500 for it is supposed to help the market.. lol..

As long as you got somebody selling stuff for $5 that is, at least on the very surface, somewhat like the same thing someone else is selling for $20 your going to have a problem. Sure, the $20 item is usually a lot higher quality and has a lot more options, but not everybody is that partiuclar about there purchasing decisions. They see $5 vrs $20 and figure the $5 item will do good enough, no need to really even look that close at the $20 one.

It's not fair, it's not right, but it is what it is as my grandpappy used to say. As to Daz, I haven't bought anything from them in so long I can't even remember what the last thing I bought from them was - I think probably V3 - prior to that you'd have to go a lot further back.

When I first got into Poser I got a couple of daz items, way way back when - and honestly the quality was nothing to write home about. Some of the stuff I've seen over there lately looks a lot better, but I guess I never really did get over the basic, gut reaction that with Daz it's caveat emptor to the max.

I've seen some nice stuff over at RDNA, but in truth never purchased anything from them - most of what I do with poser is creation and rigging so for me most store bought items don't really have much of an attraction. I do most of my own modeling and what I don't have time for I can usually find a free mesh that with some minor alterations and bit of extra rigging gets the job done just fine.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

*Exactly. It will be a slow process of attrition at first, not many new users coming into poser and a lot of us older folks who are in the hobbyist realm starting to look at other options provided Smith Micro doesn't wise up and and at the very least set there upgrade pricing to a reasonable level. I'm sure not paying $200 for an upgrade to a program who's full version only cost me $150, particularly when the upgrade itself could best be described as minor.

*Not to mention the arch-viz modelers coming to the poser market, desperate to sell their models, driving prices down further.

While poser vendors think to themselves, hmmm one month to create a functional poser model, it generates $200 in sales. That's $50 a week, $10 a day, $1.20 an hour. When wages at studios are $20 to $50 an hour. Think they will stay?

I hear a lot of boasting about the high end apps, but tell me what other program comes close to doing what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity? Let's match potatos for a minute.

dogor,

*I hear a lot of boasting about the high end apps, but tell me what other program comes close to doing what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity? Let's match potatos for a minute.

None, that's what makes it such a great pre-vis app for the high ends.

Quote - So don't tell me how craftsmen have it so much harder because they have to create multiple products, when they are making $15-$20 at their trade, and I'm lucky if I'm making minumum wage at mine.

I'm not trying to get on your badside. I just wanted you to see that the comparison you were making doesn't fit.

I only pointed out that your comparison was an apples and oranges comparison. You made the comparison, not me. Handcraftsmen also have an immensely larger audience than you do as a Poser/DS content provider so of course they're going to be selling more than you sell. Don't shoot the messenger.

Have you considered broadening your audience by making stuff for sale on TurboSquid? They're obviously still in business because the items there are making sales. I've seen your work. Your flying sub would sell on TurboSquid I'm sure. I know I'd buy it!

LMAO...i had no idea my little itty bitty comment would create this long adn serious conversation eyes glazing over hee hee hee :)

Quote - LMAO...i had no idea my little itty bitty comment would create this long adn serious conversation eyes glazing over hee hee hee :)

LOL! Doesn't take much around here sometimes. :tt2:

*LMAO...i had no idea my little itty bitty comment would create this long adn serious conversation eyes glazing over hee hee hee :)

Ahahahahaha!...snort!...AHAHAHAHAHA!...Did it curl your toes, too?

LOL... so is the new one worth the price or? :)

That all depends on which one you buy and what you're trying to do. The base package has no content and I suppose it's stripped of some of the fancy plugins however program wise it's probably a step up from version 7. The full Pro version has the plugins, but again it depends on what you're trying to do. Also are you upgrading or a first time buyer would be another question I would ask myself. If you already own Poser 7 and you're not interest in putting content into a high end app and your computer is a 32 bit machine why is it worth it?

I'm not the Joker so don't ask why so serious. When you have a community as large as the Poser community is and as many people who have their time and money invested into it why shouldn't they voice their opinions and even have their say? Even vent some steam if they want. Go ahead and laugh if you want, you can do that too.

dogor,

Quote - I hear a lot of boasting about the high end apps, but tell me what other program comes close to doing what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity? Let's match potatos for a minute.

Like, what exactly?
Rigging in Poser is a major PITA. If you spend the same amount of time rigging comething in Max, you end up with much better results.

Pre Made content in, made for Max and in Max isn't any harder to use then pre made Content for Poser, and in Poser.

If you take 40 hours to, pose pre made content in Poser, render and animate it, you won't end up with nearly as good results as if you take that much time to do it with pre-made content in Max.

Not to mention that in Poser you're stuck with what someone else made for you, so if you actually have a good dose of creativity in you and some semblance of anatomical correctness, you'll find it stifling.

The only thing that makes poser appealing is the huge volume of inexpensive content available for it. Considering however that most people whom make the content can't make a decent living off of it is going to keep it at pretty low quality and hobby levels.

So, let's not confuse fun and interesting for a hobby level with 'better' and comp[are it to a totally different class of applications. This is probably why certain pros get snotty and call rendo a 'ghetto'. They probably get annoyed with people grandiosly overestimating their application.

Now before people get their panties all bunched up, lets get thios straight: I'm not saying that Poser has no redeeming qualities. It's no 'high end 3D app' by any stretch of the immagination!

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Quote - "I hear a lot of boasting about the high end apps, but tell me what other program comes close to doing what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity? Let's match potatos for a minute." <<<<

Simplicity doesn't necessarily mean better. Most pros don't get into higher end 3D apps because they are simple, they get into the higher end apps because they are far more capable. But, Cinema 4D with InterPoser Pro allows you to use Poser content just as easily as Poser ... and you can also get hair and cloth plugins for it that do a far better job than Poser's can.

Just two observations
--Poser was created for posing (remember wood mannequin in art school) not for made art by itself
--using content ,pre made or created by yourself ,is like photographer locating some furnitures or searching a good place or use some photoflood for making the kind of photos is searching
:do you ask to phtographer to do the chair ,fabric the lights or sculpt the rock or create the person he photograph
the creation or recreation is inside you ,your art of seing,your imagination etc not in the tools you use ,even these tools is a camera,a pencil,a computer, Poser or Maya or Zbrush soft

Everybody can hold the same pencil as Picasso but see what Picasso can do with this pencil

Quote -
So, let's not confuse fun and interesting for a hobby level with 'better' and comp[are it to a totally different class of applications. This is probably why certain pros get snotty and call rendo a 'ghetto'. They probably get annoyed with people grandiosly overestimating their application.

Now before people get their panties all bunched up, lets get thios straight: I'm not saying that Poser has no redeeming qualities. It's no 'high end 3D app' by any stretch of the immagination!

Damn - now I'm sitting here with my panties all bunched and nowhere to go - lol. Actually wanted to thank you, I think you made my point much better than I have to this stage. Poser is a fine app, for what it does, but it is not a professional level app and most graphics pros readily acknowledge that fact.

In the $150 price range poser had a market. In the $500 price range, I just don't see it. If I'm paying $500 for Poser I have enough to buy lightwave instead. If I upgrade to the next version of poser when that comes out, that's another $200 right there - so if I skipped buying Poser and one upgrade for it I've got enough money for something like Modo instead. Skip a couple of more upgrades and bingo, I've got enough to buy Max or perhaps even Maya.

Considering Poser track record on upgrades, for the most part your not looking at a whole lot of bang for your buck. Often your spending a ton of money on upgrades to get bug fixes and minor feature improvements. The firefly renderer itself really hasn't drastically improved for quite some time, the render quality is still sub par when compared to most other applications.

So yes, I use Poser at home and I like the app, I really do. But I just don't see graphics pros flocking in droves to plunk down $500 on Poser for high end graphics work. I don't see Max users buying Poser to supplement Max, or the Cinema 4d crowd, or most of the other higher end applications you can name. Sure, their might be a few, but enough to make a market of? Doubtful. Especially not when your going to be losing your entrenched market rather quickly with the new nosebleed pricing schemes.

So no, I won't be upgrading to the new version of Poser anytime soon. Doesn't make much sense for me to spend $200 for a "upgrade" to a program that I bought the full version for just a year or so ago for $150, particularly when most of the "upgraded" features really won't give me much benefit at all.

I really think SM missed the boat here - big time. I just hope they realize it before they kill what is a great little app.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

Attached Link: Cloud Striffe

>>> the creation or recreation is inside you ,your art of seing,your imagination etc not in the tools you use ,even these tools is a camera,a pencil,a computer, Poser or Maya or Zbrush soft

I agree with that to a point ... Poser in the right hands can create some amazing art. However, most higher end applications have renderers that can render more quickly and at a higher quality than Poser's. Differences in materials, lighting, effects, and so on that REALLY make a difference in the final product ...

As an example. The linked Cinema 4D render blew me away ...

I don't think I've EVER seen a Poser render in which the materials approach that level of realism and detail ... and the render is incredibly sharp and rich. The lighting and shadows are perfect. Obviously, this image takes advantage of the features of Cinema 4D rather than just taking Poser content into it and pressing the Render button.

Now ... don't get me wrong ... there MIGHT be a very small number of Poser users that can get close to these results with Poser (after waiting eons for the render to finish), but most don't take the time to learn HOW to get these types of results. An image of that caliber is more than adding content to a scene, posing it, and rendering it ... it's tweaking settings for materials, lighting, shadows, and rendering until everything is perfect. And THAT is why simple isn't always better.

Word! I mean come on! The amount of time people spend in this POS program staggers me.
What's the hold up on actually creating a decent program. This program isn't rocket science so, Why can't it actually work as advertised. Enough is enough already. Get out of this played out fantasy niche and actually create a professional program.

Quote - > Quote - I hear a lot of boasting about the high end apps, but tell me what other program comes close to doing what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity? Let's match potatos for a minute.

Like, what exactly?
Rigging in Poser is a major PITA. If you spend the same amount of time rigging comething in Max, you end up with much better results.

Pre Made content in, made for Max and in Max isn't any harder to use then pre made Content for Poser, and in Poser.

If you take 40 hours to, pose pre made content in Poser, render and animate it, you won't end up with nearly as good results as if you take that much time to do it with pre-made content in Max.

Not to mention that in Poser you're stuck with what someone else made for you, so if you actually have a good dose of creativity in you and some semblance of anatomical correctness, you'll find it stifling.

The only thing that makes poser appealing is the huge volume of inexpensive content available for it. Considering however that most people whom make the content can't make a decent living off of it is going to keep it at pretty low quality and hobby levels.

So, let's not confuse fun and interesting for a hobby level with 'better' and comp[are it to a totally different class of applications. This is probably why certain pros get snotty and call rendo a 'ghetto'. They probably get annoyed with people grandiosly overestimating their application.

Now before people get their panties all bunched up, lets get thios straight: I'm not saying that Poser has no redeeming qualities. It's no 'high end 3D app' by any stretch of the immagination!

What deecey said!

In the last year, I've been putting in a concerted effort to get more familiar and friendly with Poser renderering and materials. It's a really nice setup for a pretty simple application, and does the trick for a lot of things.

Howeverrrr..... When I want to achieve top notch results, I keep bumping it's limitations and awkwardness in how it handles a number of things.
I have to go through five tutorials, dozens of posts and a lot of trial and error to get a pretty high end render out of it - with nice lighting and soft shadows and AO etc...

Last week I finally decided to get my hands on Max and Vray combo that's been sitting around here unused while I've been tinkering with Poser. Guess what, in a day of reading documentation and tutorials I had renders with much higher quality.... and I'm barely scratching the surface of what Max+vray or max+mental ray can do.

Trying to compare Poser to high end apps would be a little like comparing a Toyota to a Jet. Both can get you from point A to point B, but in a different way, different time frame, different cost, different purpose, different capacity... They both have their purpose.

But, when a car driver tries to convince, or even persistently insist to a jet pilot that their toyota can do the same thing as a jet, well, it is very likely to encounter a bit of an annoyed attitude.
Toyota driver would be equally annoyed if a bycicle rider had the same isnistant (and non understanding) attitude towards them.

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Last week I finally decided to get my hands on Max and Vray combo that's been sitting around here unused while I've been tinkering with Poser. Guess what, in a day of reading documentation and tutorials I had renders with much higher quality.... and I'm barely scratching the surface of what Max+vray or max+mental ray can do. <<<

That Cinema render that I posted a link to also used Cinema's version of VRay. Boy, am I tempted! That render engine alone is twice the full version of Poser Pro. But .... WOW

I think Cinema's native renderer can do a super job too (with what little I know about it)

I made a decision to go with Vray mostly because for architectural viz, it's the industry standard. Also, what I learned about it so far, setting up nice realistic global illumination is very quick. It has a rollout panel with settings for it.

I haven't used it much, but I hear that mental ray, which comes with Max is really good too.

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*Howeverrrr..... When I want to achieve top notch results, I keep bumping it's limitations and awkwardness in how it handles a number of things.
I have to go through five tutorials, dozens of posts and a lot of trial and error to get a pretty high end render out of it - with nice lighting and soft shadows and AO etc...

I agree. I'd like to know why Poser is like this. I mean Lightwave came with a 5 inch thick manual. Along with that, I can go to gnomon workshop, newtek and cgsociety and get the answers I need, right away. I don't have to spend days or weeks looking for arcane secrets.

It's almost as if Poser is meant for a select few that Hernandez shared the secrets with.

*Last week I finally decided to get my hands on Max and Vray combo that's been sitting around here unused while I've been tinkering with Poser. Guess what, in a day of reading documentation and tutorials I had renders with much higher quality.... and I'm barely scratching the surface of what Max+vray or max+mental ray can do.

*Good for you!! But unfortunally most of us cannot afford anything beyond Poser :-( Even if I add up all the content I've bought for Poser and added all the version purchased until now I still wouldn't be able to pay for 3D Studio Max. But then to be honest I don't want to either, I love Poser's simplicity and they way it handles the job, just perfect for me.

Artwork and 3DToons items, create the perfect place for you toon and other figures!

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/bcs/index.php?vendor=23722

Due to the childish TOS changes, I'm not allowed to link to my other products outside of Rendo anymore :(

Food for thought.....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYZw0dfLmLk

No one is discrediting Poser. We're just calling into question the Poser Pro nomenclature and pricing.

Quote - I agree. I'd like to know why Poser is like this. I mean Lightwave came with a 5 inch thick manual. Along with that, I can go to gnomon workshop, newtek and cgsociety and get the answers I need, right away. I don't have to spend days or weeks looking for arcane secrets.

It's almost as if Poser is meant for a select few that Hernandez shared the secrets with.

You forgot the virgin chicken didn't you ? Next time when you want something from the Poser manual, get the chicken first. A goat would be even better, but they're foul tempered things and may bite you so the chicken is probably safer.

LOL! Great! A sacrifice! I should have known. Here I've been tinkering with crystals and incense trying to conjure up the Poser 12. Can I say the Poser 12?

Quote - Good for you!! But unfortunally most of us cannot afford anything beyond Poser :-( Even if I add up all the content I've bought for Poser and added all the version purchased until now I still wouldn't be able to pay for 3D Studio Max. But then to be honest I don't want to either, I love Poser's simplicity and they way it handles the job, just perfect for me.

No one is saying that you, or anyone else should discard Poser and go with Max, or Cinema or maya or any other high end applications. That kind of wasn't the point of the conversation.
Poser is great for a hobby and amateur and learning and even semi-professional level 3D.

What I was addressing with my comments is a statement (I think dogor made it) that things which poser can do, it does just as well and the big name apps. The reality is, it doesn't.
I like to use poser for many fun and hobby level things.
When I need professional looking results and productivity, it's not Poser or Poser Pro that I reach for.

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5/20/08

"You forgot the virgin chicken didn't you ? Next time when you want something from the Poser manual, get the chicken first. A goat would be even better, but they're foul tempered things and may bite you so the chicken is probably safer."

Yes, but chickens have fowl tempers, especially if you call them "sweetie."

LMK

Probably edited for spelling, grammer, punctuation, or typos.

*Yes, but chickens have fowl tempers, especially if you call them "sweetie."

Whew! Thanks for the heads up! I've got the Poser manual on screen, but it won't let me in without the secret password.

Secret password is the answer to the question of which came first, Chicken or the egg. :tt2:

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
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*Secret password is the answer to the question of which came first, Chicken or the egg.

Poser Saints be praised! That's a start!

Let's see there is Poser,
Daz Studio,
Carrara,
InterPoser for C4D,
Bryce Import via D/S,
Green Briar Studios Lightwave Plugin,
Did I miss one or two?

All this for Poser content. I wasn't asking what renders better or produces better because it's more complicated or sophisticated and COSTS a lot more by the way. I know there are programs that produce better graphics I've seen some of their renders advertising Poser content before. I asked, what does what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity just to hear what I might have missed. I thought nothing did because nothing else has all the same features together in one easy to use program.

Can you load Poser content directly into Max same as Poser? I've never heard that you could(I don't have Max so you know). I think Conniekat8 was talking about content loading in general, correct me if I'm wrong though. I'd like to know.

If Poser Pro is not a high end app("by any stretch of the imagination") then why did they call it Poser Pro? If what's being said is true then it's a low end app being called Pro and that seems like more of a marketing strategy than actually being a Pro device. Finally what is it going to take for Poser to be considered everywhere as a high end app and join the club? I have a few ideas myself, but I'll let somebody more qualified tell us what needs to be done to reach that statues of "Poser High End". If that's an achievable goal at all sales volume and budget being considered before hand. In other words realistically speaking could it be done and make a profit and should it be done or should things stay the way they are? The contents not worth it, but then a high end app should be able to produce high end content too right?

dogor,

Quote - If Poser Pro is not a high end app("by any stretch of the imagination") then why did they call it Poser Pro? If what's being said is true then it's a low end app being called Pro and that seems like more of a marketing strategy than actually being a Pro device.

I think so, yes. Or perhaps it's as 'pro' as they could make it under their new masters. I wonder what all eF had planned for PPro and how much had to be cut away in the end...

Quote - Finally what is it going to take for Poser to be considered everywhere as a high end app and join the club? I have a few ideas myself, but I'll let somebody more qualified tell us what needs to be done to reach that statues of "Poser High End".

If you want a pro wishlist then this is some of mine:

Plugin SDK with access to most parts of the poser architecture.
Support for sl so we can write and use custom shaders.
Multithreading of the cloth and hair rooms.
Support for advanced OpenGL/DX features including Cg and HLSL so that people can actually make good use of their fancy GPUs.
Support for more then 4 threads.

Note that none of those are flashy, 'wow, that's so pro !' features but rather tools which would go towards fixing the basic problems of poser. If we have a plugin SDK, then people can make (and sell) plugins that fix poser's joint system, it's UI, add native particles or anything else they can think of. If we have support for sl, we can make firefly 100x better then what it is like now. Multithreading the cloth and hair is also something that needs to be done if we ever want dynamic content to become popular. Cg and realtime shader support would mean that hardware rendering of poser scenes would become a great alternative for people doing anims.

As far as price point goes, is there really all that much difference between what CL charged for Poser ProPack? IIRC, the price of the ProPack addon was somewhere in the $200 to $300 range. For that you got the setup room, some plugins, and python scripting. There might have been more that those seem to be the major ones.

Now we have Poser Pro. A $200 upgrade that can be likened to the old ProPack. Only with this release you get a 64bit app, network rendering, HDRI, gamma correction and some plugins.

If you compare the full cost of Poser Pro with the cost of buying Poser4 and ProPack, I don't think the price is all that different.

I've started on creating some content for Poser in my spare time, and I can say that if Smith Micro ever wants Poser to be considered a "pro" app they need to do something about the absurd camera and lighting interface that's in the software now. I can position a camera and create a lighting setup in 3DS Max in less than a minute, the same operations in Poser are a painful and protracted exercise in frustration.

Quote - What deecey said!

In the last year, I've been putting in a concerted effort to get more familiar and friendly with Poser renderering and materials. It's a really nice setup for a pretty simple application, and does the trick for a lot of things.

Howeverrrr..... When I want to achieve top notch results, I keep bumping it's limitations and awkwardness in how it handles a number of things.
I have to go through five tutorials, dozens of posts and a lot of trial and error to get a pretty high end render out of it - with nice lighting and soft shadows and AO etc...

Last week I finally decided to get my hands on Max and Vray combo that's been sitting around here unused while I've been tinkering with Poser. Guess what, in a day of reading documentation and tutorials I had renders with much higher quality.... and I'm barely scratching the surface of what Max+vray or max+mental ray can do.

Trying to compare Poser to high end apps would be a little like comparing a Toyota to a Jet. Both can get you from point A to point B, but in a different way, different time frame, different cost, different purpose, different capacity... They both have their purpose.

But, when a car driver tries to convince, or even persistently insist to a jet pilot that their toyota can do the same thing as a jet, well, it is very likely to encounter a bit of an annoyed attitude.
Toyota driver would be equally annoyed if a bycicle rider had the same isnistant (and non understanding) attitude towards them.

Well, the point many of us were trying to make was not that the Toyota is a bad way to get around, just that it seems silly for the makers of Toyota to start expecting you to pay "Jet" prices for it.

I really like Poser - get a lot of use out of it at home. But it's not a pro level application and needs a huge overall before it could even come close to being considered a pro application. A couple of extra features and some exporting importing utilities are not going to make most 3ds max users say "Hey, where can I go to give somebody my $500 for Poser?"

The point we were attempting to make wasn't that Poser is a bad program, merely that it is not now nor has it ever been a professional graphics app, and Smith Micro's strategy of going after the "pro" market is going to go over like a lead balloon. It's just a horrible idea. Most pro's have a very dim view of Poser to start with, and while the app does have it's advantages it's certainly no where near as feature rich as most of the stuff you can get in the $500 price range.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

Quote - As far as price point goes, is there really all that much difference between what CL charged for Poser ProPack? IIRC, the price of the ProPack addon was somewhere in the $200 to $300 range. For that you got the setup room, some plugins, and python scripting. There might have been more that those seem to be the major ones.

Now we have Poser Pro. A $200 upgrade that can be likened to the old ProPack. Only with this release you get a 64bit app, network rendering, HDRI, gamma correction and some plugins.

If you compare the full cost of Poser Pro with the cost of buying Poser4 and ProPack, I don't think the price is all that different.

Umm.. no, you don't get a 64 bit app - you get a 64 bit render engine. Poser Pro itself is still a 32 bit application. Only firefly was ported to 64 bit - so all in all the speed differential is miniscule. Network rendering is a coolio idea, but not really all that useful to most home users. Gamma correction is ok I suppose for those that render in Poser, but having seen the results I can tell you that it certainly isn't anything that will make you go "Woah".

The firefly renderer really hasn't improved in it's quality much at all, in fact other than a slight difference in lighting the top end settings still won't produce the sort of renders you can get from other 3d apps.

HDRI sounds cool - useless to me and probably to a lot of the other folks that use poser. As far as the plugins are concerned, they are all for interfacing with other, higher end graphics apps so there not of much use either unless you have 3ds Max, Maya or Cinema 4d and want to use them with Poser.

So all in all not a lot of value there for most, certainly not worth paying $200 for an upgrade version of a program that only cost $150 to buy the full version, and no way in hades is it worth $500 for those poor souls that don't already own a copy of 7.

But my concern and the concern of most people I think is more aobut the future of Poser. If Smith Micro thinks they can jack prices that hard with some minor bug fixes and upgrades, what will they do if they ever manage to start addressing some of Posers real troublesome areas and come up with say, a render engine that isn't out classed by virtually every other render engine out there, including ones you can get for free off of sourceforge?

Boggles the mind.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

Quote -
... Only firefly was ported to 64 bit - so all in all the speed differential is miniscule.....

But porting to 64 bit has nothing to do with speed. Usually a 64 bit version of an application is a little bit faster, but not that much.
The 64 bit is about memory. I already rendered scenes in P7Pro that were just plain impossible to render in P7, using 7 GB of address space.
I haven't tested yet what happens when FFRender needs more memory than is physically available, but if the programming is even halfway decent, it'll just requrest virtual memory - and should be able to use up to 128 GB of it.
Bugger the speed. It's the memory management! And that, for me, is the main feature of P7Pro. The PoserFusion plugins (Reiss BodyStudio unchanged, used to be $180 per - flaky and unstable - plugin), no, they're not even worth 2 cents. Collada export - haven't tested it yet, but could be useful. Normal mapping and gamma correction are minor improvements.

All in all, P7Pro is an upgrade to P7. At a stiff price, agreed, but not as extravagant as some posters seem to think it is.

Oh, and Pro? P7Pro is DEFINITELY NOT a professional application. It misses far to many essential professional features, like an SDK, a plugin architecture, full scriptability, and more. Integration into Max/Maya at the level of Poser integration with Vue/Cinema4D (via InterPoser Pro), well, that would be a nice start. But those Reiss BodyStudio plugins are total crap. Functionality is far too limited, and unstable to boot.

The pen is mightier than the sword. But if you literally want to have some impact, use a typewriter

My gallery My freestuff

Quote - Let's see there is Poser,
Daz Studio,
Carrara,
InterPoser for C4D,
Bryce Import via D/S,
Green Briar Studios Lightwave Plugin,
Did I miss one or two?

All this for Poser content. I wasn't asking what renders better or produces better because it's more complicated or sophisticated and COSTS a lot more by the way. I know there are programs that produce better graphics I've seen some of their renders advertising Poser content before. I asked, what does what Poser does with the same degree of simplicity just to hear what I might have missed. I thought nothing did because nothing else has all the same features together in one easy to use program.

Can you load Poser content directly into Max same as Poser? I've never heard that you could(I don't have Max so you know). I think Conniekat8 was talking about content loading in general, correct me if I'm wrong though. I'd like to know.

If Poser Pro is not a high end app("by any stretch of the imagination") then why did they call it Poser Pro? If what's being said is true then it's a low end app being called Pro and that seems like more of a marketing strategy than actually being a Pro device. Finally what is it going to take for Poser to be considered everywhere as a high end app and join the club? I have a few ideas myself, but I'll let somebody more qualified tell us what needs to be done to reach that statues of "Poser High End". If that's an achievable goal at all sales volume and budget being considered before hand. In other words realistically speaking could it be done and make a profit and should it be done or should things stay the way they are? The contents not worth it, but then a high end app should be able to produce high end content too right?

dogor,

You forgot Vue..... ;) And when you get down to it, nothing else has the features -in package- that Poser does. Do any of the Big Boys (tm) have dynamic cloth or strand based hair out of the box? Not unless you forked over more $$$ for the plugins (and keep Blender out of it; I specified the Big Boys...and the last thing Blender can claim is 'ease of use'...). Sure something like Saquatch can do hair far beyond what Poser is capable of.....the bloody pluging costs more than Poser Pro retail, last I checked (which may have changed since then). The 'Pro' appellation has no meaning anymore; Vue 'Pro' was nothing of the sort; it was a stepping stone to the version that proved itself capable of finding a home in a production pipeline, Vue Infinite (and if ILM uses it, it qualifies as 'professional'). Poser 'Pro' isn't near being used in a pipeline for more than previs or poor man's animation...and until they multithread & 64 bit Ubinary the core app, the cloth and hair, improve the collision detection system, expand the animation system to give better access to the key values of motion (they need to just make an animation 'room' and tailor the UI for that and that alone; those who don't animate can ignore the tab), and get some rigging improvements or expansions, it won't be even in the running. It'll never be useful for endstage rendering without major changes in the render engine, but if the animation capabilities get some spiffing up, then as a standalone animation app it could excel. Of course to some it will never be 'pro' unless it becomes a top end modelling app along with everything else....and winds up as expensive as a Max or Modo or XSI or Maya. But if you don't need the polygon tools or NURBs, why pay for them?

Quote - You forgot Vue..... ;) And when you get down to it, nothing else has the features -in package- that Poser does. Do any of the Big Boys (tm) have dynamic cloth or strand based hair out of the box? Not unless you forked over more $$$ for the plugins

Not true in all cases. 3dsmax has both dynamic cloth, and strand-based dynamic hair systems included "out of the box" so to speak. It also has a world-class production render engine (Mental Ray), a highly complex node-based particle system (Particle Flow), and two different rigging types for character animation (Biped and Bones).

Quote - The 'Pro' appellation has no meaning anymore; Vue 'Pro' was nothing of the sort; it was a stepping stone to the version that proved itself capable of finding a home in a production pipeline, Vue Infinite (and if ILM uses it, it qualifies as 'professional'). Poser 'Pro' isn't near being used in a pipeline for more than previs or poor man's animation...

Exactly! Poser Pro doesn't have 'PRO' type features, which is why I'm baffled that it's target audience seems to be professional level 3D.
Most people hoping for Poser 8 ended up buying Poser Pro. Now Poser 8's sales are going to suffer because of it... and they didn't bring very many new, little higher end, users in the fold.

Having Vue and Cararra in addition to Poser, I'm trying to figure out why on earth I would be interested in Poser Pro.

Hi, my namez: "NO, Bad Kitteh, NO!" Whaz yurs?
BadKittehCo Store BadKittehCo Freebies and product support

Quote - > Quote - The 'Pro' appellation has no meaning anymore; Vue 'Pro' was nothing of the sort; it was a stepping stone to the version that proved itself capable of finding a home in a production pipeline, Vue Infinite (and if ILM uses it, it qualifies as 'professional'). Poser 'Pro' isn't near being used in a pipeline for more than previs or poor man's animation...

Exactly! Poser Pro doesn't have 'PRO' type features, which is why I'm baffled that it's target audience seems to be professional level 3D.
Most people hoping for Poser 8 ended up buying Poser Pro. Now Poser 8's sales are going to suffer because of it... and they didn't bring very many new, little higher end, users in the fold.

Having Vue and Cararra in addition to Poser, I'm trying to figure out why on earth I would be interested in Poser Pro.

Which is really what its all about. Look, Poser Pro is a decent application, probably not worth the upgrade price for most but on the whole a good step up from Poser 7. However, it is not going to have professional graphics people flocking too it from other applications, and its certainly not going to be picking up a lot of the new hobbiests out there at $500 a shot. They have more or less conceded the entire hobbiest market by pricing themselves right out of the running.

So what happens now? Sure, some of us will doubtless pay for the upgrade to Pro, and they might get a couple of folks who buy copies to integrate with higher end apps like Maya, 3ds max or cinema 4d - but they are not going to magically create this vast market of 3d pro's clamouring for there product.

So then what? As a consequence of fewer new Poser users, the poser content community starts to suffer. Fewer dollars to go around spent on content, content getsa lot more competitive and prices drop there. Better artists start leaving to create content for other programs where they can make more money. Quality overall drops and content prices suffer even further. Vicious cycle.

As Poser content declines, so declines Poser - since lets be honest here, it's availability of reasonably priced content that is Posers strongest selling point. So either Smith Micro drops its prices out of the nosebleed section and tries to regain some market share in the hobbiest market, or they did what efrontier did and they try to sell the app to someone else and walk away.

Either way Poser suffers for SM's miscalculation of there market, only question is how bad. I'm hoping it won't be too bad, fortunately Poser does have the advantages of strong entrenched market and a lot of great users who make it such a strong market. But they won't wait around forever, if SM doesn't keep up on development and get it's pricing structure squared away, eventually they two will start seeking greener pastures.

I'd really hate to see that happen. I get a lot of use out of Poser and I'd really like for the app continue to be developed and improved, but sadly I see Smith Micro's latest marketing ploy being about as welcome as a coyote at a road runner convention. I just hope they don't do serious damage to the marketplace and to the application development cycle before this is all said and done. I've seen apps that were every bit as popular as Poser is now die over miscalculations like this one.

-Never fear, RenderDog is near! Oh wait, is that a chew toy? Yup. ok, nevermind.. go back to fearing...

Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: NEW POSER PRO