No MAT POSES! What were they THINKING???
 

;)

...and I will now cross cross!: 

While I used to scoff at the whole "MAT POSE" thing (real Poser Artists don't want no training wheels) I actually do now advocate an organized, user-friendly way of chosing various options in one control-board implementation. If you see the way MaskEdit does it,, or BaginsBill etc., you'll get how convenient and even important it is.

I just wish people would not call them "POSES" however. That is plain stupid, confusing and lame.

::::: Opera :::::

Wow...shot 3 times in a row. ouch :laugh:

**Okay, I admit it. I'm a former Studio user that is still trying to get used to Poser and the Material room. And I will admit I don't know all that much about applying the materials in the folder. I guess I must doing things the hard way because when I want to change the texture on a clothing item using a material, I click on each part of the clothing to change it. So I assumed one would have to do the same with these. I have used the free Elite eye light set and saw the textures were made for the eye surface only, so I choose that and then choose the eye light I wanted to use. I assumed, again, that if the textures for her were in the Material folder, then I would have to do the same with each part.

And darn it! I like MAT poses. LOL
**

Quote - > Quote - * 

*I agree.  I also believe that with a billion dollar industry there is room enough at the table for all.

/me blinks

Billion? If the ALL the poser marketplaces combined had half of that, I'd be amazed. Don't forget how cheap EF sold all of poser developement for just 6 months ago.

Yeah, LOL, it's more like hardly a milion when it comes to content. If that much.
If there's about 3000 active content buyers out there, and if they spend about $200 a year on content, the yearly money that changes hands would be about 600,000.
I hope they spend much more then that!!!

Elite Morph in GND4 Suit.

Not off topic: Apple sold 1 Million new iPhones yesterday, the first day of release. All Poser artists can aspire to have their animations on those phones. That makes them part of the PoserDaz world.

Let's see, One Million Times Two Hundred Dollars Each.......on one day........THAT'S 20% of a billion dollars in one day!!!

::::: Opera :::::

On GND vs Elite, Elite's boobs and Butt are bigger, and tummy is smaller, but the rest of her geometry, the angles of surfaces follow GND very well. Even the skin tight shoulder straps and upper part of the back fit Elite morph perfectly. Look at default V4, they are very different. If that was accidental, and not a morphs which started off as a GND, then the modeller whom made it needs to start playing lottery. Any modeler can tell you that the likelyhood of hitting that much of the morph shape accidentally is rather miniscule.

Quote - And darn it! I like MAT poses. LOL

Actually, so do I. And that's just because I hate the lag I get going to the material room. It's a bother having to go room to room for a quick texture swap. That's why I told you how to make pz2's from mc6's. ;)

Thanks fivecat. I appreciate it. I just might do that with those eyes. I really liked the effect they gave.

Quote - If that was accidental, and not a morphs which started off as a GND, then the modeller whom made it needs to start playing lottery. Any modeler can tell you that the likelyhood of hitting that much of the morph shape accidentally is rather miniscule.

Depends...if the modelers would be looking at a similar athletic body shape, I'd say the chances are pretty high when messing with the same mesh.......
What are the chances of having a totally unrelated "twin".....I can tell you I have one, never met her but I meet the people whom have known her for years, they insist I am that person & really argue with me when I tell them I'm not (and I'm not, that person went to college, I didn't...ever).
Maybe I should play the lottery.....

But I am pretty sure many here have made up their minds, even should Dan Farr post photos of the model that the scans were taken from.

Quote -

**You haven't heard where most men keep their brains? Or which head they really think with? Maybe it is just  a "inside joke with women" as Pat surmises.  grin

**/quote]

NOW I get it. must have needed some food and to step away for a moment. LOL

Depends...if the modelers would be looking at a similar athletic body shape, I'd say the chances are pretty high when messing with the same mesh.......

Not to the detail that I'm observing.

*What are the chances of having a totally unrelated "twin".....I can tell you I have one, never met her but I meet the people whom have known her for years, they insist I am that person & really argue with me when I tell them I'm not (and I'm not, that person went to college, I didn't...ever).
Maybe I should play the lottery.....

I have one, my ex boyfriend has one, my best friend has one, and my best friend in highscholl had one. That's just of the six or seven people I had conversations about the topic. Where I live there's 18 milion people in a 50 mile radius. Not that hard to have a twin.

If there were 18 milion V4 morphs, or if the morph we're discussing was closer to V4 default shape, It wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

Quote - If there were 18 milion V4 morphs, or if the morph we're discussing was closer to V4 default shape, It wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

But supposedly both morphs were created using real women as references. You just admitted that there are good odds that these women have twins. And we're not looking at faces here, only bodies (actually, only back/buttuck/hip outline).Ergo it is not that improbable that the two morphs look similar. And my eyes are seeing many differences that apparently you can not. Just how must different does a morph have to be (on an identical mesh) to not cross your magic "too close for comfort" line?

I'll have to agree  with fivecat on this one.

*Quote - "*Quote - " 
I agree.  I also believe that with a billion dollar industry there is room enough at the table for all."

/me blinks

Billion? If the ALL the poser marketplaces combined had half of that, I'd be amazed. Don't forget how cheap EF sold all of poser developement for just 6 months ago.
"*

Yeah, LOL, it's more like hardly a milion when it comes to content. If that much.
If there's about 3000 active content buyers out there, and if they spend about $200 a year on content, the yearly money that changes hands would be about 600,000.
I hope they spend much more then that!!!

I was talking about the video game market.  There is more than just the poser market in the cgworld.

BTW I like MAT poses.

Now care to take another shot?

Actually, who am i to complain.
Since the outfit is made for GND4, this level of similarity is going to make super quick and easy work for me to tweak the outfit and add a fit for Utopian Elite morph too. Unlike other body fits, like Alice and Pretty 3D and VanHelsing which took most of the day to make, this one will go in about quarter of the time.

*Just how must different does a morph have to be (on an identical mesh) to not cross your magic "too close for comfort" line?

My magic  too close for comfort line? Do I detect a dose of hostility here? When did I step on your toes?*

It should look different enough to where an experienced modeller doesn't look at it and thinks, wow, this is what you usually get when you load GND4 mesh in and tweak it, rather then loading V4 mesh and use that for a tweaking starting point.

Also, as I said earlier, it would be nice if it's different enough where you don't have to put them side by side and break out a magnifying glass and examine vertices to to pick out the differences.

But hey, if this level of similarity with some of the most popular morphs out there is aceptable, maybe I should make a derivative of a few and sell them at half price.  (not)

I still say the pelvic tilt and s-curve are the most glaring causes for question; they are very much the same. If you halt my animation and step thru during the side view, it is scary how much they line up.

This is compounded by the fact that most full body morphs do not attempt to put this curve in the spine/pelivs of the default, at least to this extreme.

Does Alice have that same curve?

::::: Opera :::::

Quote - *Just how must different does a morph have to be (on an identical mesh) to not cross your magic "too close for comfort" line?

Nice hostile dramatization, but let's get back to analisys.

Not hostile in the slightest, but an honest question. Where is this line and who gets to draw it? Why do you think you are better qualified than others to judge? I can make morphs in zbrush, and I would rather someone doesn't tell me what I can and can't create through my own effort.

*I can make morphs in zbrush, and I would rather someone doesn't tell me what I can and can't create through my own effort.

Tellin' someone what they can and can't do is a job for politicians and preachers.

Quote - I still say the pelvic tilt and s-curve are the most glaring causes for question; they are very much the same. If you halt my animation and step thru during the side view, it is scary how much they line up.
This is compounded by the fact that most full body morphs do not attempt to put this curve in the spine/pelivs of the default, at least to this extreme.

Because most morphs aren't custom copies of real women. To me this shape is not unusual. A lot of women stand this way. V4 base is NOT a typical shape. I would expect custom shapes to look more like each other than like V4.

Quote - I still say the pelvic tilt and s-curve are the most glaring causes for question; they are very much the same. If you halt my animation and step thru during the side view, it is scary how much they line up.

This is compounded by the fact that most full body morphs do not attempt to put this curve in the spine/pelivs of the default, at least to this extreme.

Does Alice have that same curve?

::::: Opera :::::

Alice has a similar curve, but different enough to where it doesn't look like it was copied and modified. Shoulders and back and really none of the geometry lines up.
I remember spending full 8 hours of tweaking to get from GND morph to Alice, even though the body shapes are similar.

Shoulder axis and spine axis are in a different spot, same with pelvis and it's angle, it's different, so is the position of the hips and the position of the boobs.
When making a clothing morph to fit that causes a lot of tweaking of large body areas to get them to the right angles and size, then displacement and smoothing brush work to get it all looking nice.

Same with many other morphs (the ones I mentioned earlier)

With Elite Utopian morph, all I had to do is a limited amount of brush and displacement work to get it to fit. Make the boobs and the butt bigger and a tummy smaller, and a few little touchups. The rest of the body axis are the same.   Using magnets in Poser, the fit from GND to Utopia morph can probably be made with 5-6 magnets instead of the usual dozen or so.
Theoretically, it may even be possible to use the same magnet set to make clothing fit from V4 to GND4 as V4 to Elite Utopia.

I bet if someone submitted this morph to rendo marketplace, there would be question if it's not too close to GND4. I'd be very surprized if that wouldn't be the case. I've seen product with less similarities to an existing product already in marketplace be questioned or rejected.

Sure, there are differences too. Not enough to make me believbe DAZ was working from the 'original photographic material' they claim they did. And if they really did ans I'm way wrong, that's a poor choice of body styles to go for. How about something different from what is out there already.

I expect the mobs with torches and pitchforks at any moment. Oh, wait, it's the 21st century.
Tar and feathers then. :)

Greywolf

Quote - I've seen product with less similarities to an existing product already in marketplace be questioned or rejected.

Apparently that doesn't apply to textures or dial spins. They all start looking the same. :P Also skimpy bikinis, hair etc. Lots of same-looking stuff. > Quote - How about something different from what is out there already.

Well, that's wide open for someone else. Hmm, time to open zbrush.

Quote - I expect the mobs with torches and pitchforks at any moment. Oh, wait, it's the 21st century.
Tar and feathers then. :)

Greywolf

There's always an unruly mob gathered at DAZ's door. Daz is the big evil of poserdom, apparently.

Quote - I have one, my ex boyfriend has one, my best friend has one, and my best friend in highscholl had one. That's just of the six or seven people I had conversations about the topic. Where I live there's 18 milion people in a 50 mile radius. Not that hard to have a twin.

I not only have a twin, I have a twin with the same name as me in the same city and I have friends who are constantly bringing up seeing me in places I've never been and having conversations with me I never had. 

Talk about scary! If I didn't have proof from others that I wasn't in those places at those times I'd start thinking I had a split personality and was living two lives!

Quote - > Quote - If there were 18 milion V4 morphs, or if the morph we're discussing was closer to V4 default shape, It wouldn't raise an eyebrow.

But supposedly both morphs were created using real women as references. You just admitted that there are good odds that these women have twins. And we're not looking at faces here, only bodies (actually, only back/buttuck/hip outline).Ergo it is not that improbable that the two morphs look similar. And my eyes are seeing many differences that apparently you can not. Just how must different does a morph have to be (on an identical mesh) to not cross your magic "too close for comfort" line?

I too saw many many differences in that side by side read view of GND and the new Elite V4. Her buttocks were similar but nowhere near exactly the same and her back muscles on the shoulders contained many diffferences in musculature that I could see.

Quote - I still say the pelvic tilt and s-curve are the most glaring causes for question; they are very much the same. If you halt my animation and step thru during the side view, it is scary how much they line up.

This is compounded by the fact that most full body morphs do not attempt to put this curve in the spine/pelivs of the default, at least to this extreme.

Does Alice have that same curve?

::::: Opera :::::

If Elite morphs were truely made by scanning a true human body, those curves would be there naturally I would assume.

Quote - I expect the mobs with torches and pitchforks at any moment. Oh, wait, it's the 21st century.
Tar and feathers then. :)

Greywolf

Tazers and Jello! :tt2:

Quote - > Quote - *Just how must different does a morph have to be (on an identical mesh) to not cross your magic "too close for comfort" line?

Not hostile in the slightest, but an honest question. Where is this line and who gets to draw it? Why do you think you are better qualified than others to judge? I can make morphs in zbrush, and I would rather someone doesn't tell me what I can and can't create through my own effort.

As for the honest question part of "Where is this line and who gets to draw it?".
I don't know. I'm expressing my personal opinons and showing my findings here.

You're the one that jumped from that to thinking I'm telling you what you can and can't do. You tell me why do you think that I think I am better qualified than others to judge?
 
I never said I thing I'm better others, nor does one have to be better then others to judge something. If that was the case, noone should be allowed to judge another person or thing. I'm also not telling you, especially not you personally, what you can create.

Quote - > Quote - I still say the pelvic tilt and s-curve are the most glaring causes for question; they are very much the same. If you halt my animation and step thru during the side view, it is scary how much they line up.

This is compounded by the fact that most full body morphs do not attempt to put this curve in the spine/pelivs of the default, at least to this extreme.

Because most morphs aren't custom copies of real women. To me this shape is not unusual. A lot of women stand this way. V4 base is NOT a typical shape. I would expect custom shapes to look more like each other than like V4.

With that argument we go back to what blackhearted says, with a number of other unique and beautiful female shapes out there, why go for one that is so similar to GND4?
There are so many other shapes that haven't been made yet, that I bet people would love to have.

And being that the theme of this thread is "Disappointed With the New V4 Elite Morphs..." I am very disappointed that there wasn't more uniqueness in such an 'elite' product. I expect better and more original woprk from DAZ. (I dunno why, but I do)

And I still stand by my opinion - I find it impossible to believe that this was purely accidental. You're not obligated to agree, but your arguments are not convincing me to change my opinion.

Quote - As for the honest question part of "Where is this line and who gets to draw it?".
I don't know. I'm expressing my personal opinons and showing my findings here.

We both have our opinions; that mine differs doesn't mean I feel hostile or am attacking you. We're all entitled to make up our own minds. > Quote - You're the one that jumped from that to thinking I'm telling you what you can and can't do. You tell me why do you think that I think I am better qualified than others to judge?

Well, you did express a strong opinion about what one should and shouldn't do as far as creating similar morphs. But I didn't mean to say you were telling me what to do, I meant that I don't want to be told, by anybody, what morphs I can create. > Quote - I never said I thing I'm better others, nor does one have to be better then others to judge something. If that was the case, noone should be allowed to judge another person or thing. I'm also not telling you, especially not you personally, what you can create.

It wasn't my intention to imply that you thought you were better than others. It was a rhetorical type question -- who gets to judge what is appropriate when it comes to body morphs, and why are they the ones to do it? That is all. Please don't take my words personally, as I said I am not trying to attack you or accuse you of anything. I respect your opinion and hope you respect mine.

If GND was getting a good market share then to me that makes it an ideal shape to go for with a competing product. Especially for Daz who COULD issue a FREE set of fit magnets , and make all V4 clothing available to it .

Quote - If Elite morphs were truely made by scanning a true human body, those curves would be there naturally I would assume.

Those curves, the angle between thighs, hips and a spine depend very much on how the person is standing, and are not something that is constant on a woman.
Just by adjusting how we stand, those angles change - almost every few seconds.
Just about every woman can stand in that position.

To have those angles and several key points on the body that close together. Pretty much in identical spots to the naked eye (withoug going in, averaging vertices and actually measuring the angles) this is very hard to do. Like I said, if it's merely a coincidence, it's a pretty freaky one.

I definately dont' see it happening during a body scan.
It would be slightly more believable if DAZ and Blackhearted ended up working off the same photo resource. It would still be tricky hitting the same shoulder height since photos are easily sized differently in a 3D app. 

The only way I can explain hitting that many similarities is if one had a GND mesh loaded in there to work around it or as a guide. While technically I don't believe this is a clear copyright violation, I expect better from DAZ... and for the price, I think most of their customers should too.

Quote - If GND was getting a good market share then to me that makes it an ideal shape to go for with a competing product. Especially for Daz who COULD issue a FREE set of fit magnets , and make all V4 clothing available to it .

hehe, yeah, that's crossed my mind too.

Quote - It wasn't my intention to imply that you thought you were better than others. It was a rhetorical type question -- who gets to judge what is appropriate when it comes to body morphs, and why are they the ones to do it? That is all. Please don't take my words personally, as I said I am not trying to attack you or accuse you of anything. I respect your opinion and hope you respect mine.

No problem :)  Sorry I reacted so strongly to what you said too.

Do we meow and make up now? ;)

Quote - And being that the theme of this thread is "Disappointed With the New V4 Elite Morphs..." I am very disappointed that there wasn't more uniqueness in such an 'elite' product. I expect better and more original woprk from DAZ. (I dunno why, but I do)

If they really did use a scan, then they would have had to find a 'unique' body who was willing to be scanned. Most likely not a model as they are less likely to be shaped differently than the base V4. And as fickle as the market is I wonder if a unique shape would have sold? A lot of people here have an extremely narrow opinion of what is pretty, and those people seem to only be interested in pretty. I've read a few comments about the Fantasia morph being a bit large. What young, slender body type would be 'different?' I'm not being snarky here, I am really curious.

You better or I'll send my bodyguard to rough you up a little. ;)

LOL.
Brrring it on, I got my own lil' bowdy guarrrd!

What I see is this folks, people dont like the elite for 1 reason or another, so what, its not the end of the poserworld as we know it, people are voicing their opinions about it, so what? thats not the end of it either... but, just because people are stating they dont like it doesnt mean that every one that does has to turn around and basically tell them that they are wrong wrong wrong!!!  I see it in this thread, and I've seen it in all the daz threads.. so opinions differ, big deal.  We should all agree to just disagree and be done with it.  :D

Quote - LOL.
Brrring it on, I got my own lil' bowdy guarrrd!

Ouch ouch ouch. You must have tough skin. My guy was strongly discouraged from climbing on me after he clawed his way up my back one day.:crying: And don't we both have remarkably handsome bodyguards. Heh.

Quote - What young, slender body type would be 'different?' I'm not being snarky here, I am really curious.

If I only fiuure out how to hack into my 20 yr old stepdaughter's myspace account and show you her and her friends in competition swimsuits, you'll see a few.

I feel like such a pervert wanting to photograph her and use her body shape as a V4 morph.

See if I can expplain...  Her butt is round, but less tear drop shaped. The creases go more straight across then down and out. Her quad muscles are a lot smaller, but still shapely (unlike V4 which show no muscle definition), and calves and ankles more pronounced.

Her shoulders are a bit wider and boobs a bit bigger then GND. Where her hips and shoulders form a bit more of a square then an A line that GND makes. But still not so square to not look very feminine.

Little bit like this:

While her best friend, whom is also a swimmer is about three four inches shorter, and little less angular:
Maybe closer to this one - which in the hips seems a bit closer to GND.

Actually, theese pics aren't as good as I'd like them to be.... I'll have to look for more/better examples.

Quote - > Quote - LOL.

Brrring it on, I got my own lil' bowdy guarrrd!
 

Ouch ouch ouch. You must have tough skin. My guy was strongly discouraged from climbing on me after he clawed his way up my back one day.:crying: And don't we both have remarkably handsome bodyguards. Heh.

I remember your black kitty avatar, I love it. Not that your current is no good, but I'm partial to kitties!!!

I have permanent little clawmark scars on my shoulders from tigger liking to sit on my shoulders for 11 years now.

I used to walk around the house doing housework, and she would camp on my shoulders. I think bt now I have no feeling on my shoulder skin any more. But how can I refuse the snuggly little thing like that!

I'd love to see Stephanie Seymour Morph with a super high quality texture!

See how her butt crease is more straight across then pointing downwards on the outsides the way GND does.  To me, both very cute and shapely, but different.
Narrower waist.

Quote - See if I can expplain...  Her butt is round, but less tear drop shaped. The creases go more straight across then down and out. Her quad muscles are a lot smaller, but still shapely (unlike V4 which show no muscle definition), and calves and ankles more pronounced.

Her shoulders are a bit wider and boobs a bit bigger then GND. Where her hips and shoulders form a bit more of a square then an A line that GND makes. But still not so square to not look very feminine.

Thanks for taking the time to elaborate. I have one set of pics from all angles that I got free off a 3dWorld disk, but the model is very square -- narrow hips and thick waist. She is pretty but not an hourglass. The shoulders -- wish I could improve those, and not just those stupid creases, but the nice shape you see in the photos. V4 has kind of shrugged up, narrow shoulders that can't really be broadened without changing the JCMs.

Quote - so opinions differ, big deal.  We should all agree to just disagree and be done with it.  :D

Yea, but then I'd have to find something else to do - like figure out the details of V4 rigging... :tt2:

Quote - The shoulders -- wish I could improve those, and not just those stupid creases, but the nice shape you see in the photos. V4 has kind of shrugged up, narrow shoulders that can't really be broadened without changing the JCMs.

There you go - Improving shoulders... purrfect thing for DAZ to do and make an 'elite' release.
Advanced stuff like that is what I would see fit for a release like that.

Now I'm tempted to make a character ... no time. Maybe in a few months.

I lost an expert  rigger on my current project (due to a family emergency) and now I'm scrambling with a crash course on V4 clothing rigging. Ick.

Quote - I definately dont' see it happening during a body scan.
It would be slightly more believable if DAZ and Blackhearted ended up working off the same photo resource. It would still be tricky hitting the same shoulder height since photos are easily sized differently in a 3D app. 

The only way I can explain hitting that many similarities is if one had a GND mesh loaded in there to work around it or as a guide. While technically I don't believe this is a clear copyright violation, I expect better from DAZ... and for the price, I think most of their customers should too.

I was only offering reasonable doubt for how that particular curve might have occurred. I still see musculature on the elite morphs that is not on the GND and visa versa.

As for me, I could care less as I haven't bought anything new for V4 since she first came out. She's not my cuppa tea. Now send me a kitteh to snuggle with or I'll taser you with my new Jello taser. :tt2:

Quote - Now send me a kitteh to snuggle with or I'll taser you with my new Jello taser. :tt2:

uh oh....

Did this post help change the page so we don't have to scroll R/L?

Nope, how about this one.