Forum: Poser - OFFICIAL

Subject: Poser7-How to create a real water?

zippomaker opened this issue on Aug 19, 2008 · 30 posts

zippomaker posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 12:30 PM

Hi all
I have a problem to create a realistic water environment...
I would like to a create a real surface of water to combine with a woman..
Is there a good tutorial?
I remember there was a good tut. by bagginsbill but now I can't find it..
I founded only this: http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2825201&ebot_calc_page#message_2825201
but this don't help me so much...

Thanks and excuse me for my low language

SoulTaker posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 3:48 PM

have you looked at "how to make water in poser"?
its in the tutorials

Miss Nancy posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 4:28 PM

good poser 7 water renders (with woman) seen in nerd's new animation (freestuff).


bagginsbill posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 4:42 PM

Have you seen this?[

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3152012&ebot_calc_page#message_3152012](http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=3152012&ebot_calc_page#message_3152012)

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

bagginsbill posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 4:44 PM

Or this?

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2635785

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

bagginsbill posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 4:48 PM

Or this?

http://www.renderosity.com/mod/forumpro/showthread.php?message_id=2974687&ebot_calc_page#message_2974687

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

bagginsbill posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 4:49 PM

Or this?

http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?forum_id=92&ShowMessage=285752

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

replicand posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 5:27 PM

 two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

vilters posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 5:54 PM

I just took,a plate with a clouds and turbulence displacement map The figures are the P4 Lo res females morphed in anim8or, and with a displacement map greetings Tony

Poser 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 7, P8 and PPro2010, P9 and PP2012, P10 and PP2014 Game Dev
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bagginsbill posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 6:17 PM

Tony, forgive me for saying so, but that's terrible.

Try the two-node material in my first link.

 

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

Conniekat8 posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 7:24 PM

Quote -  two parts hydrogen, one part oxygen. Sorry, couldn't help myself.

Maybe throw in a rain dance, just to cover all the basis? ;)

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jjroland posted Tue, 19 August 2008 at 8:06 PM

BBs 3rd link down was the best help I ever got for poser reflections.  That thread helped me alot


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ashley9803 posted Wed, 20 August 2008 at 3:33 AM

Two parts hydrogen and one part oxygen.
Shaken about the place but not spilt.
Sorry, I couldn't resist.
Seriously, Vue does the best water.
If you're restricted to Poser, there is a very good water prop available for free.
Give me a mo, and I'll look for it.
I think it's a muli-part layered prop.

zippomaker posted Wed, 20 August 2008 at 8:34 AM

Tanks to everybody... following the 3rd link (probably the best... yes jjroland) I obtained this results.. the first with IBL illumination and without skydome, the 2nd with the same settings but with skydome.. What you think about it? is it a satisfactory results or not?

probably it's still too similar to a glass...   no?

thanks a lot

zippomaker posted Wed, 20 August 2008 at 8:35 AM

2nd

bagginsbill posted Wed, 20 August 2008 at 9:17 AM

It looks very good - you did well. You definitely want the sky dome with it.

You might try increasing the bump amount, or perhaps decreasing the scale of the bump pattern generator, to make the water a bit less calm.

Also, if the reflection is too strong, try decreasing the Attenuation in the Edge_Blend node, or decreasing the Value_2 brightness in that node.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

SimonWM posted Wed, 20 August 2008 at 6:00 PM

Quote - Or this?

http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?forum_id=92&ShowMessage=285752

Could this setup be used to create animated running droplets of water down a character skin sort of like SkinVue products but with the ability to have water droplets form on the skin and run down like real sweat/moist?

bagginsbill posted Wed, 20 August 2008 at 6:52 PM

Probably not. I could do that for water on glass, no problem. But the technique I'm using is taking advantage of that peculiar circumstance - water on glass. I'm bending the glass using displacement to make the droplets, and relying on the fact that when you look through the water droplet, you see all the way through the glass.

Water on skin has been asked for many times, and it is extremely difficult to do convincingly. I have some preliminary results in another thread, but I wasn't entirely happy with it. Bending the skin to make droplets gives an appearance more like a disease of the skin than like water. My newer technique involves using some math to simulate the bending of light, without actually relying on a curved, displaced surface. But it's very tricky math, and the material room nodes don't quite give me all I need to fully accomplish the effect.

SkinVue basically relies on photographs of water (sort of) blended with the skin texture a specific way. This is fine and very convincing for a still image, but in an animation, you'd immediately recognize that the water droplets are "painted" on the figure. As the figure moves, and particularly as it turns, the effect falls apart.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

zippomaker posted Fri, 22 August 2008 at 5:01 AM

HI this is a new attempt for the project... The render is with IBL and Skydome, but near the cheeks the skin is more dark than normal... Why? ..and why the reflection have some kind of "scatch" or "pixeling"?

**bagginsbill **I tryed to increasing the bump amount and decreasing the Attenuation in the Edge_Blend node, but no wave yet....  It's still similar to a glass no?
what do you think about?

THanks again

bagginsbill posted Fri, 22 August 2008 at 9:59 AM

The darkening of the cheeks is cause by ambient occlusion. AO does not take into account that there is a reflective surface (water). In real life, the water would reflect sky light onto the lower cheek and keep it bright. If the water plane was actually a ground plane, it would and should darken the cheeks. That's what AO is doing here - treating the water plane like an ordinary object that blocks ambient light.

I suppose you could fix it by making the water plane invisible to raytracing. (Check box on the properties/parameters window - second tab.) This sounds like it would make the reflections go away, but it is ok. The water itself is not being seen in any reflections, so you lose nothing. This will make the water plane "invisible" to the AO calculation.

The scratchy look seems to be related to the hair. I suspect that the transparency mapping of the hair creates visible gaps. When viewed from a typical viewing angle, this is not a problem, but the reflections give us a perspective as though we are under her ear, looking almost straight up. From that angle, it reveals to us the reality that the hair is not 3-dimensional, with a definite thickness, but paper thin, with large gaps in it.

When you said you tried increasing the bump amount, I'm wondering what exactly you did. For example, starting from .001 millimeter, .002 is an "increase" (in fact, double) but not actually significant enough for you to see any real wave.

Before you tell me what value you used, you should check what your Poser Display Units are set to. The bump value depends on your chosen units. If I tell you to set it to .1, I mean .1 inches, because I always work in inches in Poser. If you are set to some other unit, you must convert, or you must first change your Poser Display Units preference to inches. Unless you and I agree on what units we use, my numbers and your numbers are different.

Having said that, I generally work with water bump height around .05 to .2 inches. Any more than that, and I go to displacement instead of bump.

The overall curvature created by the waves is a function of the height and the width of the wave. Increasing the height to .1 inch will produce nice curves, but only if the width of a wave is around an inch. Your wave tops look like they are about 3 feet or about a meter apart. A .1 inch high wave that is 1 meter wide will not produce much curve at all. It will look very flat.

Because you have little curve, the Edge_Blend has nothing to work with. There must be significant curvature in order to see variation in reflection amount based on angle.

That is why I suggested that you should decrease the scale of the wave generator. You have not shown me your material, so I don't know what you used. Whether it is Fractal_Sum, fBm, Turbulence, whatever, they all have scale parameters. Adjusting those scale parameters will alter the size (width) of those waves.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

kobaltkween posted Fri, 22 August 2008 at 10:34 AM

bagginsbill - i don't think that's transmapped hair.  that character is Milan by Danae, and she comes with that blonde hair texture.


tbird10 posted Fri, 22 August 2008 at 10:37 AM

I've got a basic Poser water tutorial at

http://www.stu-runham.co.uk/water.htm

Which describes how to create a water material in easy steps, not as comprehensive as Bagginsbill's shaders but can be used to get decent effects.

Paul Francis posted Wed, 03 September 2008 at 3:21 PM

I used Stu Runham's tutorial thus:

 http://www.renderosity.com/mod/gallery/index.php?image_id=1739943

The tutorial is here:

http://www.stu-runham.co.uk/water.htm

Seems to work fine.  The ultimate secret to rendering water in Poser (IMHO) is to have a sky reflected in the water, otherwise it just looks like a puddle of mercury in a studio!

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SimonWM posted Wed, 03 September 2008 at 3:43 PM

Quote - My newer technique involves using some math to simulate the bending of light, without actually relying on a curved, displaced surface. But it's very tricky math, and the material room nodes don't quite give me all I need to fully accomplish the effect.

I'm interested in seeing an example, could you post a picture? I've thought about mapping an animated displacement map that will create the water droplet formation and eventual downward movement thru the skin but I might be way over my head here.

I don't know how they did it but Beowulf was very succesful doing water runing down the skin.

bagginsbill posted Wed, 03 September 2008 at 7:33 PM

*I'm interested in seeing an example, could you post a picture?*

Here ya go. This is the best I did so far.
 (Click to enlarge)

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

tbird10 posted Thu, 04 September 2008 at 10:17 AM

bagginsbill - looks great, I must get back into using nodes from scratch - they are such a powerful tool !

Paul, great image, glad you were able to use the water tutorial - I have neglected my webpage for too long, I keep meaning to completely overhaul it and put up some more Poser and Vue tutorials and some free stuff but I simply don't seem able to find the time, must try harder :-)

SimonWM posted Thu, 04 September 2008 at 10:54 AM

Quote - I'm interested in seeing an example, could you post a picture?

Here ya go. This is the best I did so far.
 (Click to enlarge)

That looks very good. Is there a chance you could share your settings in the Poser material room?

cspear posted Thu, 04 September 2008 at 12:08 PM

 IMO water is a huge weakness in Poser. This result took me hours to achieve and still isn't quite right, but I am quite pleased with the patches of green weeds floating on the surface.

This shader (& its variations) is intended for large bodies of water such as the sea, lakes, rivers etc.

When I've finished twiddling with it I'll post the material files in freestuff. 

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bagginsbill posted Sun, 07 September 2008 at 10:18 PM

Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?forum_id=92&ShowMessage=389923

> Quote - > Quote - *I'm interested in seeing an example, could you post a picture?* > > > > Here ya go. This is the best I did so far. > >  (Click to enlarge) > > > > That looks very good. Is there a chance you could share your settings in the Poser material room?

Heheh. I did show it. Follow the link. I didn't show all of it - it's too big.

I have to find a way to package it for people. It's got to be part of my VSS system. If I show you all the nodes required, you'd just give up.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)

bagginsbill posted Sun, 07 September 2008 at 10:20 PM

Attached Link: http://www.runtimedna.com/mod/forum/messages.php?ShowMessage=226110

If you want to see serious ocean water in Poser, go here. At the time (two years ago) I was a noob. I can do it much more easily now.

Water is a mystery not because of Poser, but because of the Fresnel effect, which I have now under my control in Poser.

Renderosity forum reply notifications are wonky. If I read a follow-up in a thread, but I don't myself reply, then notifications no longer happen AT ALL on that thread. So if I seem to be ignoring a question, that's why. (Updated September 23, 2019)