the large hadron collider opens tomorrow, finding it amusing all the people who fear it will create a black hole and swallow us all up.

then again, i read somewhere when the u.s. detonated the first atom bomb, theory held that it could produce a much less limited chain reaction that could kill us all.  they did it anyway :

go that way really fast.
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I'll tape it and watch it on Friday :) If there is a friday :)  

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Quote -
then again, i read somewhere when the u.s. detonated the first atom bomb, theory held that it could produce a much less limited chain reaction that could kill us all.  they did it anyway :

i remember reading something about that. I think it was something like there was an incredibly remote possibility that the atom bomb could ignite the entire atmosphere or something like that. That was a few years ago so my memory is pretty hazy on that.

According to some details in New Scientist magazine, CERN will be
running through a gradual set of tests for the next few months.  The
accelerator won't reach the kind of high energies that could cause
these "singularities" until maybe January. 

Isn't that grand?  At least we have a few months of grace.

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Yes, there was a fear that detonating an atom bomb could vaporize the atmosphere through a chain reaction of the accelerated particles.  Of course, this never happened.

Well, think of it this way.  If the CERN Hadron collider experiment creates a black hole (i.e.: tears a hole in space-time), you won't be any the wiser as you and the rest of Earth will be shredded into subatomic particles before you know it.

True, the gravitational destruction will propagate at the speed of light (at best) but for the size of the planet that would only be a few seconds.  And most likely, after it gobbles the Earth and Moon, the small amount of matter injested won't be enough for it to effect the rest of the solar system in the short-term (only in the long term since there wouldn't be an Earth orbit and gravitational system anymore).  Just as proposed for galactic black holes, once the matter within a distance is devoured, other matter further out will be relatively safe (until the black hole starts moving).

Nice knowing you all. ;)

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Don't worry...I'm powering up the positron framistat.  It'll negate any blackholes should they develope.

some egghead was worried that the h-bomb would ignite the terrestrial atmosphere, due
to his lack of understanding of thermodynamics and molecular nitrogen gas.
some other areas of confusion for many:

1. humans don't have the ability to create super-massive objects
2. no extra-terrestrial interstellar vehicle has visited this planet
3. time travel from the future is impossible
   anybody who's concerned about these things should always wear his aluminium hat. :lol:

Darn you, Miss Nancy!  Darn you to hell!!!! ;)

Actually, I agree wholeheartedly (if not with a bit of resilience).  It would be great if time travel were possible (thus allowing both 2 and 3) but it appears to be anon.

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

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*Yes, there was a fear that detonating an atom bomb could vaporize the atmosphere through a chain reaction of the accelerated particles.  Of course, this never happened.

WRONG

It happened. The atmosphere exploded. We all went to hell. But the devil found it a bit boring to have us all around. Found it more funny to make us believe there is a real live.
So he sent us all back.

And gave us Poser.

Yes, I still take my medication.

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;)

C makes it easy to shoot yourself in the foot. C++ makes it harder, but when you do, you blow your whole leg off.

 -- Bjarne Stroustrup

Contact Me | Kuroyume's DevelopmentZone

The matrix has you.

Passion is anger and love combined. So if it looks angry, give it some love!

I have returned from the future to let you all know that the experiment went according to plan & the Earth survived.

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*I have returned from the future to let you all know that the experiment went according to plan & the Earth survived.

Well - maybe next time! Or this afternoon, when they repeat their experiment, but this time with the power plugged in ...

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The singularities created, if they happen, would have such tiny event horizons that they wouldn't suck a thing in before they collapsed on themselves.

If you listen to Art Bell (Coast to Coast) two things happened a few years ago.  One is that a remote viewer claimed an asteroid was headed for the Earth.  It was going to be the kill shot that destroys all life on the planet.  The second thing was other guests claimed a mysterious object was approaching from the direction of the sun, so that nobody could get a clear look at it through a telescope.

Was this mysterious object the kill shot rock?

After the date the kill shot date passed the answer was reported.  The mysterious object was an alien craft.  It came to save Earth, moving the entire planet into a new solar system with a very similar sun and with a star pattern that would look identical from the planet.  The asteroid did pass through where Earth would have been, but the Earth had been moved.

"The sun does look a little more yellow" Art Bell constantly says.

Maybe a black hole will result from this new collider, but aliens or people from the future will save us without us ever knowing about it.

:lol: "Maybe a black hole will result from this new collider, but aliens or people from the future will save us without us ever knowing about it."

If people from the future saved us, would we know it? If they didn't stick around and claim credit?

Black hole without mass? Hehehehehehehehehehe:laugh:  Next talking without gas! Fashion without Bill Blass! Mowing without Grass! Drinking without glass! (Alrighty--got me on that one!. without plastic,too --doesn't rhyme.):lol:

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
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Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

Attached Link: On the Effectiveness of Aluminium Foil Helmets: An Empirical Study

> Quote - anybody who's concerned about these things should always wear his aluminium hat.

Ah, no, that's what they want you to do. It's been scientifically proven that wearing an aluminium foil hat actually intensifies the government mind control rays.

I have seen the (fake) home page of  "Repubblica", the most important Italian online newspaper.

It reads:

"It's the world end! CERN confirms it!"
"Switzerland already sucked into the black hole."
"The Pope: ok, let's pray, but I cannot guarantee anything"
"Berlusconi: at least the Alitalia problem is solved"

giorgio_2004 here, ksabers on XBox Live, PSN  and everywhere else.

 I thought the concern was, that several tiny black holes would be created, but that some scientists feared that after about 4 years, all these blackholes would coelesce to form a big one that could cause problems.  So It hink you have another 4 years to worry about it.  At least until poser 8 is released.
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....and all they do today is shoot it in ONE direction... to test if it goes around..
So NO collision is done..so how are we gonna get a balck hole without a collision..

they wont tell us when the system actualy goes make them smash into eachother...

So for a simple one way test there is a lot of buzzzz for nothing.....

 

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well, actually it was. This is Earth Mark 2....;) The search for the Ultimate Question goes on...;)

They had a piece on it on NPR this morning. The Black holes wouldn't last long enough to do anything. Strangely, one disappeared into the past, and was found in Calcutta in the 18th Century...;) j/k...;)

I went to the future and saw Poser 8 (just to get us more on track), but I couldn't afford it even then...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

We were actually talking about this last night at home before (with great necessity) went to bed, LOL.....Joe asked me what I thought if the world ended with the supercollider....I replied "At least they finally released Spore...."

It was at that point when I  realized I needed sleep.

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Knowledge is knowing a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is not putting it into a fruit salad.

Well, guess I'll add me two cents in.  What will happen is that a packet of protons will collide with each other from different ends at sufficient energy levels that will  break both proton packets up into the particles of matter ( quarks, and leptons) and the particles of force (bosons).  They want to study the strong and weak nuclear forces, and electromagnetic energy as well as the elusive Higgs field.  

They want to know why a neutron decays into a proton and electron instead of a proton decaying into a neutron.

         want to study the different colors of quarks, their spins, symmetry
                                 how glueons work, what make up glueons
                                 and what the heck is the Higgs field or force that keeps matter the way it is.

 
Now, our star, the Sun has been plowing protons together for around 4.5 billion year and we are still here.  We have also done it for the last 50 years, combining protons together and releasing ity bettie packets of photons in all ranges of the electromagetic spectrum.
-we call it a hydrogen bomb detonation.  Jan 

So are we dead yet ? :)

Pinky - you left the lens cap of your mind on again.

Oh yes, just wait until the Internation Linear Collider  (ILC) is built.  That beast takes a laser that blast Electrons from gallium arsenide, converts half of those puppies into positrons, then smashing the electron and positron packets into each other and viewing the results in the resulting annilation.

The difference between the LHC and the ILC, the former is a sledge hammer in cracking the atom, the latter is a scapel diving deeper into the soup.  Jan

Where did I get that information-could say I discovered it all by myself-YEAH RIGHT!  I grabbed a hold of Scientific American magazine Feb 2008 issue.  It has a superb series of articles on the stuff that I had to read about 30 times to partially understand.

First approach:  The article had English words, proper sentence and paragraph formation.  I understood each word and what it suppose to mean, when I got to the end of the sentence, that's when I had to go back and re read it around 30 times.  Then the paragraph, yep another 30 times, then the complete articles, yep another round of re reads--sort of like studying advanced University math courses and dropping the classes shortly after.  Jan

You guys take all the fun out of hysteria.

As one of my old bosses used to say, "Don't confuse me with the facts". :-) 

Quote - As one of my old bosses used to say, "Don't confuse me with the facts". :-) 

Thought that was a quote from a president?

Any how back to the "matter" at hand... could not pass that up :)

Some Egghead from the local College here stated that even if we where to create a black hole it would burn itself out in less than a nano second. He thinks that we would need a Super Collider the circumference the size of the Earth to create a black hole large enough to do any damage.

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Attached Link: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/main.jhtml?xml=/earth/2008/09/10/scicern410.xml

Wow! How exciting!

Theoretically they could end up producing not only matter, but also antimatter. And if they could find a way to harness and store  the antimatter, they could produce the ultimate weapon of mass destruction. Or at the very least a source of energy that could power the world a million times over!
 

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This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
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Like Hydrogen fusion, it takes a lot more energy to produce anti-matter to produce energy than the anti-matter releases. LOL :lol:  You can't take over the world with solar and wind power. LOL

I cannot save the world. Only my little piece of it. If we all act together, we can save the world.--Nelson Mandela
An  inconsistent hobgoblin is the fool of little minds
Taking "Just do it" to a whole new level!   

You can't take over the world with solar and wind power. LOL

actually.... you can with Solar, just not down here on the ground.

now if you have a space tether, some satellites at the LaGrange Points......

Quote -   You can't take over the world with solar and wind power.

If I had the time I might be able to. Lets see I would need 5 yards of red yard, a bottle of Vodaka, 3 pairs of  socks and a Llama, oh never mind wrong list

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As I understand it, the controversy surrounds theory. It is theoretical that a quantum-scale black hole might form at the enormous energies of the LHC. It is also theoretical that black holes can 'evaporate' (Stephen Hawking). If a quantum-sized black hole forms and evaporates, the scientists will know it as it releases energy. However, if it does not evaporate, no one will see it as it will just pass through all the target material meant to stop most of the high-energy particles created in the collisions and speed its way through everything else. One scientist calculated that it would take a minimum of four years before it could grow large enough to swallow the Earth. And that, folks, would be the year 2012, the same year the Mian calendar ends. But... what's that pin-point bright shiny thing coming up through the floor?!? Oh no! It's a.... AAAAAaaaaaarrrrggggg!! .....*

 Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things!  ; )

No, no, no, you've all gotten it completely wrong.  The atmosphere isn't going to catch fire, and there won't be any black holes.  Everybody knows that.

What's actually happened is that the official government types have succeeded in tearing open a hole into another dimension: and numerous hellish creatures of various descriptions -- but all of them with a taste for human flesh -- have come pouring out of that hole and have completely infested the facility.  But not to worry: a tough, lone Marine PFC who was on temporary leave has gone in......and now there are reports of loud gunfire, explosions, and hideous roars heard echoing back from within the facility.  So, no doubt, that heroic lone Marine will take care of this minor issue for us.  We can all relax.

Oh, yeah -- I forgot to mention that the researchers who were responsible for building that facility did everybody a huge favor by leaving a gazillion caches of ammunition, advanced military-grade weapons, grenades of every description, body armor, and instant-healing potions scattered all over the facility.  Thus: it shouldn't be any big deal.  Mr. Lone Marine can handle the monsters for us......our only duty should be to begin polishing up that Congressional Medal of Honor for him, whenever he comes back out.

I just hope that he doesn't have too much trouble with the Boss on Level 3..........

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**XENOPHONZ
now that's a scenario i can live with
**

go that way really fast.
if something gets in your way
turn

Quote - 1. humans don't have the ability to create super-massive objects

Oh, yeah?  Well, what about government bureaucracy and regulations?  Not to mention taxes -- which if you think about it: function in precisely the same manner that a black hole does.

Quote - 2. no extra-terrestrial interstellar vehicle has visited this planet

Aliens built the pyramids......including the pyramids in South America.

Quote - 3. time travel from the future is impossible

Now that sets up a paradox: if we can extrapolate that time travel into the future is possible.

Given that time travel from the future is impossible: then how would a time traveler coming up from the past return back to the temporal plane of his own origin......so that he could have the children that history indicated that he'd produced in his lifetime?

If a time traveler came from the past: then would all of his descendants instantly disappear, because of the fact that their great-great grandfather traveled into the future: and then found that he couldn't return back to the past again?  These are deep matters to contemplate.......

Quote - anybody who's concerned about these things should always wear his aluminium hat. :lol:

I understand that aluminum-hat wearing is all the fashion rage among the avid fans of grocery store tabloids.  But such a complete lack of fashion sense just goes to show you how dumb they all are.  People who are smart and in-the-know are logically-minded enough to realize that wearing aluminum hats won't do them any good at all.  The correct material to use is gold-anodized pot metal.  Anything else stems from nothing but foolish paranoia.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

actually time travel is possible; you detach yourself from the 3-dimensional framework of the Universe, then travel along the 4th dimension. However, *the Universe is in motion....

*arriving at your destination, you are instantly dropped into the interstellar void, to join the millions of mad scientists of countless millinos of species, to a point where your planet was x amount of time ago...;) Anoixia is the chief killer of time travelers, followed by radiation burns and boiling/freezing...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Quote - People who are smart and in-the-know are logically-minded enough to realize that wearing aluminum hats won't do them any good at all.  The correct material to use is gold-anodized pot metal.  Anything else stems from nothing but foolish paranoia.

I had hoped that underlined passage was a link, which I could follow to buy some gold-anodized pot metal headgear, or maybe make my own. How disappointing.

Sorry about that -- but of course: you'll appreciate the fact that those of us who understand these things must keep our secrets.  We can't have the Illuminati finding out that we are on to their little schemes.  Plus there's the fact that providing that link in a public forum like this might tip off the NSA, too.  And if that were to happen, then who knows what the reaction of the Federal Reserve would be?  So.......listing that link openly would simply comprise too much of a risk.  I'd consider forwarding the link to you via IM, but how do I know that you don't work for the CIA?

sigh  Stuff like this has been so uncertain ever since Atlantis sank into the sea off the coast of Brazil.  You just can't tell who you can trust anymore.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

OK -- now I get it -- you're a member of the Knights Templar, aren't you?

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Buckaroo Bonza comes to mind.

*People who are smart and in-the-know are logically-minded enough to realize that wearing aluminum hats won't do them any good at all.  The correct material to use is gold-anodized pot metal.  Anything else stems from nothing but foolish paranoia.

The only problem with gold-anodized pot metal is that the strong, weak, and electromagnetic forces are not balanced. The anodizing process creates an imbalance of the electromagnetic forces,  thus over shadowing the strong and weak forces.  If one applies oscillation via the framistat then i'm afraid the outtake manifolds will fuse and the firing sequence of the positron will abort.  Reynold's wrap is much better.

The world ended when Tom Brady was hit in the knee ending the football season! Hehehehe!

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Didn't Steven Wright build a time machine in his garage, except it only went forward at regular speed?

*Didn't Steven Wright build a time machine in his garage, except it only went forward at regular speed?

Yep.   His latest model has the Allison turbo 800 transmission installed.  He can now go forward and reverse.  Also has a passing gear.

Black holes belong to science fiction. Singularities only exist in mathematics and not in real world and time is not imaginary!

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote - how do I know that you don't work for the CIA?

Since the brainwashing, not even I know whether I work for the CIA. That's probably for the best.

As far as I can tell (and remember after reading these posts), no one has actually answered the question yet. So I will.

Yeah. All things considered, I think I'm about ready for the black hole.

Thanks for asking, and nice knowing, er, not really knowing you.

Don't worry about the black hole, Russians are making the white hole and Chinese sells the yellow hole 100 for 1.00 $

Stupidity also evolves!

that's because if we knew the answer, we wouldn't have built the collider...;) watch this planet...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

ok. it's up, it's running.

when do they load the Cheddar Cheese into the impact chamber?

Attached Link: http://notnews.today.com/2008/09/09/large-hardon-collider-could-corrupt-civilisation/

We should be worried....

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bob, just to clarify - yer workng for MI5/NSA.  keywords: echelon, carnivore.
the main idea behind the hadron colider is to provide jobs for geeks who couldn't
make a living otherwise AFAIK.  just try reading their gibberish about quarks and
"the big bang" if ye have any doubts.

Once you've been through one black hole, the next one is a piece of cake.

I don't know what all the fuss is about.

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'I'm paying for this movie. I want guns'

Professor Stephen Hawking, author of A Brief History of Time, said of the CERN Collider:

"Collisions at these and greater energies occur millions of times a day in the Earth's atmosphere, and nothing terrible happens."

Thats easy for him to say..!

"You don't have to be mad to use Poser... but it helps"

Quote - Professor Stephen Hawking, author of A Brief History of Time, said of the CERN Collider:

"Collisions at these and greater energies occur millions of times a day in the Earth's atmosphere, and nothing terrible happens."

Thats easy for him to say..!

LOL, yep.  However, he is pretty darn good at this stuff--proton smashing and combining as been going on for the last 14 or so billion years.  We wouldn't be here without it----Jan

 Fact: the particle collider near Chicago (Fermilab) has been running an antimatter beam for the last 10 years.  Millions of times a second it crashes into a matter beam going in the opposite direction and exotic forms of matter are produced.

Fact: high energy collisions like this (and even much much more energetic ones--much higher in energy than what will happen at the LHC) occur all the time when cosmic rays from outer space hit dust particles in our upper atmosphere.  Again, particles are created, and the ones that don't decay in flight are going through us every second.

I thought Quark was still tending bar at DS9...;) top, bottom (see holosuite for details), strange or charmed, you gotta wonder...;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Which quark was tending bar--I hope it wasn't Strange?  Jan

Quote - I have seen the (fake) home page of  "Repubblica", the most important Italian online newspaper.

It reads:

"It's the world end! CERN confirms it!"
"Switzerland already sucked into the black hole."
"The Pope: ok, let's pray, but I cannot guarantee anything"
"Berlusconi: at least the Alitalia problem is solved"

another positive thing is that Naples will have rid itself of the trash pileup problem

There was a small rip in the atmosphere today. Well, truth be told it...was actually quite large.

And a wee but pungent too. :lol:

Comitted to excellence through art.

Quote - According to some details in New Scientist magazine, CERN will be
running through a gradual set of tests for the next few months.  The
accelerator won't reach the kind of high energies that could cause
these "singularities" until maybe January. 

Isn't that grand?  At least we have a few months of grace.

Yeah well, I wouldn't worry too much unless the thing can be everywhere at once and move backwards through time.

BTW, there are a couple of theories which reject the idea of black holes... and they work perfectly within the postulate of the universe as we understand it.  So, yer never know....

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The black hole theory of infinite mass and zero volume per black hole isn't very logical IMHO.

Rationale:  How can the universe have billions plus black holes each with INFINITE mass?  There can be only one---hmmm heard that phrase somewhere---Jan 

physics is full of seemingly illogical things, though.  after all, check out quantum entanglement.  measuring one half of a quantum pair instantaneously will change the outcome of measuring the other half no matter how far apart.  since particles and waves can't travel faster than the speed of light it behaves as if the particles are not actually separate, even if on opposite sides of the universe.
some day our phones and power transmissions will probably work this way. 

go that way really fast.
if something gets in your way
turn

*"1. humans don't have the ability to create super-massive objects

2. no extra-terrestrial interstellar vehicle has visited this planet
3. time travel from the future is impossible
   anybody who's concerned about these things should always wear his aluminium hat"*

Yep and 500 years ago the world was flat. Not saying that those 3 will happen but who know what theories will be changed in 500 years from now.

"There's a hole in my bucket, dear margret, dear margret."
 

In the moment the protons walk the dog only. No collisons with them till now. So we still have the chance of the black hole ;-)

Quote - physics is full of seemingly illogical things, though.  after all, check out quantum entanglement.  measuring one half of a quantum pair instantaneously will change the outcome of measuring the other half no matter how far apart.  since particles and waves can't travel faster than the speed of light it behaves as if the particles are not actually separate, even if on opposite sides of the universe.
some day our phones and power transmissions will probably work this way. 

God plays dice. Quantics are not compatible with Einstein.
The Einstein's light speed limit is not compatible with instantaneous action (infinite speed) of spin coupling.
Imagine the Big Bang theory made of things that don't match at all!

Quote - Yep and 500 years ago the world was flat.

500 years ago the Earth was round and a sphere. Around 1300 AD was measured in France the size of the Earth giving a value almost the same as we have today. Don't forget the Greeks that have done it too two mileniums before, even with less precission.

Stupidity also evolves!

You missed the point I was making to correcting numbers.

Attached Link: Hackers break into Large Hadron Collider computer

Hey guys, I knew it was just a matter of time before something like this happens... Read the story and get ready to feel a little bit more paranoid...

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Smiles are contagious... Pass it on!

Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday

 

The large hadron collider has exsisted for years in secret. It was needed to make black holes
for every clothes dryer on the planet, along  with airports. It's where our lost luggage, and at least one sock gets sucked into. Never to be found again.

:b_grin: @ albertdelfosse I never really thought of that... :laugh:

===========================================================

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Poser: Poser 11.3 ...... Units: inches or meters depends on mood
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Image Editing: Corel Paintshop Pro
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9/11/2001: Never forget...

Smiles are contagious... Pass it on!

Today is the tomorrow you worried about yesterday

 

just to reassure y'all, they still won't be creating any black holes several months from now,
and time travel from the future will still be impossible in the year 3008 as well.  :lol:

those 2600 rascals

miss nancy here's a response about time travel

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Tachyon.html

sure some scientists don't see it as possible but plenty of mainstream scientists are ok with that.  they had a great show on one of the science channels about the evolution of this particular universe and the behavior of time, (and a possible ultimate fate of this particular universe) and they were really treating time like just another ordinary physical thing that can be and in fact (theoretically) is regularly slapped around.

so no real proof of tachyons yet, but the math is there, and that usually precedes tangible things.  and lets not forget that we really still don't know crap compared to how much there is to know.

kurzweil likes to say that technology sufficiently advanced appears to the viewer like magic.

go that way really fast.
if something gets in your way
turn

Quote - The black hole theory of infinite mass and zero volume per black hole isn't very logical IMHO.

Rationale:  How can the universe have billions plus black holes each with INFINITE mass?  There can be only one---hmmm heard that phrase somewhere---Jan 

Actually black holes don't have infinite mass. They have the mass of what-ever object
got mashed down to create them.  For example if a black hole was created by the
explosion of a large star in a super nova, the black hole would have what ever mass
of the star that wasn't blown out into space in the explosion.  In the centers of
some galaxies there are super massive black holes, but there the mass of those
black holes in just the mass of all the stars that clumped together to form it.
A micro-black hole would have a very tiny mass. 

But you are right about a black hole having zero volume, it is a singularity,
a single point in space with no width, height, or length.  You could think of it
as taking a Poser figure and setting the x,y, and z scale dimensions to zero.
It would still have all the vertices, but they would all be mashed down into a
single point that you wouldn't even see in a render.

The singularity is not at the center, it is located at a distance GM/c^2 from the center. Inside the black hole is no singularity.
Well this is what happens in mathematics, in real world when asingurality happens in a point it only means that the mathematical equations used are not able or fail to describe what is happening, so find a better mathematical model!

Stupidity also evolves!

lol i agree it's like saying "god did it, so we're off the hook" for finding an explanation

go that way really fast.
if something gets in your way
turn

Nobody was able to prove that light speed is the maximun speed possible to achieve, only a theory tells this.
The speeds we can achieve are insignificant compared to the speed of light, how much? 40,000 km/h???, what is 40,000 km/h compared tp 300,000 /second?!
The only things we can accelerate near the speed og light are charged particles, in other words, electrons and protons. The only thing that experience tell us is that an electron becomes more difficult to accelerate as its speed is increased.
How do we accelerate a charged particle? The only way we know to do it is by means of an electromagnetic field and here the stoey gets complicated.
When we accelerate an electron by mean of an electric field the electron moves, as an electron is a charge and a moving charge is a current and a current creates a magnetic field that at its time will create an electric field. To simplify, we accelerate an electron by means of an electric field and so the moving electron will generate an electric field that oppose our accelerating electriv field.
Bigger the speed stronger the opossing field, it will be a moment when the reaction field will cancel our accelerating field, the resultant force on the electron will be zero and the electron will not be able to accelerate further, no matter how strong will be our field or how many miles long is our hadron collider. This moment is when the electron is traveling at the speed of light and this has nothing to do with Einstein's Relativity theory, that is not an electromagnetic theory, ignores electromagnetism and light is a particle and not a wave.
An electron can travel faster than light, but we have no means to do it because it doesn't respond anymore to our electric fields that are the only way that we know to make him move.
As an analogy, a tomate that is not a charged object, doesn't respond to electric fields.
We can put a tomate in a super maximum hyper hadron collider and the tomato will not move.
The conclussion will be that the maximum speed that a tomato can achieve is zero and it has an infinite mass. Nothing can travel faster than a tomato that doesn't move at all.

Stupidity also evolves!

As an update, the collider has broken down.  Shame.

Quote - As an update, the collider has broken down.  Shame.

It was just a bad transformer.  They've replaced it, but it will take a while to chill
the whole thing back down again before they can restart it.  After that it should
be good to go, unless something else breaks down. 

Quote -
An electron can travel faster than light, but we have no means to do it because it doesn't respond anymore to our electric fields that are the only way that we know to make him move.
As an analogy, a tomate that is not a charged object, doesn't respond to electric fields.
We can put a tomate in a super maximum hyper hadron collider and the tomato will not move.
The conclussion will be that the maximum speed that a tomato can achieve is zero and it has an infinite mass. Nothing can travel faster than a tomato that doesn't move at all.

The speed of light is critical in three equations, the Lorentz transformations.  They're the ones that show that, as you go faster time seems to slow, mass increases, and length decreases.

These have all been experimentally demonstrated.  In fact, GPS satellites have to take this into account because their clocks tick at a slightly different than does a clock on the surface of the planet: it's not enough for a human to notice in the everyday world (just as the slight increase in mass when you run compared to standing still isn't big enough to matter given the forces involved), but if you need to calibrate highly accurate timepieces, it does.  The increase in mass, and time slowing down, has also been observed in particle accelerators.  A particle that decays in a certain amount of time takes longer to decay if it's moving faster, and one moving faster hits with more mass than one would expect if you didn't take relativistic mass increase into effect.

Common in all three equations is the Lorentz factor, 1/sqrt(1-[v^2/c^2]), where v is your velocity and c is the speed of light.  The way it works in the mass equation is:

Mass of moving object = mass of object when "unmoving"  times Lorentz factor

Let's say that you are travelling at the speed of light, v=c.  Then v^2/c^2 is 1/1, or 1.  So now you have to find the square root of 1-1, or 0.  The square root of zero is zero.  But now the factor is 1/0, or infinity.

So at light speed, the mass of the moving object is its rest mass...time infinity.  So if the object has any mass, any at all, it would have infinite mass at light speed.  That's why we know that photons that move at light speed can't have any mass to start with, and why you can't accelerate anything with mass to light speed: it would achieve infinite mass (that is, it would outweight the universe).

Here's the other thing: in order to accelerate something, you need energy.  The energy to accelerate something is directly proportional to the mass of the something.  The more mass, the more energy needed.  Well, to accelerate an object of infinite mass, you therefore need infinite energy. 

Incidentally, the reason why your tomato example in the particle accelerator makes no sense is because there isn't enough energy in the particle acccelerator to move a tomato.  There's a lot of energy in there relative to the particles and some individual atoms that are being moved, but no where near enough to significantly effect the huge number of atoms and particles in a tomato.  Your example is about as silly as arguing that because I can't push the space shuttle into orbit, therefore there's no amount of energy that can push the space shuttle into orbit, which is obviously a dumb thing to say.  All it's saying is that a single person doesn't have the energy, not that the energy isn't available.

Ah, but if that space shuttle, or that tomato, is moving really, really fast, then we run into the energy problem.  At 99.9% of lightspeed, the tomato masses 22.366 times as much.  At 99.99%, 70 times as much; at 99.999%, 223 times as much; at 99.9999%, 707 times as much, and so on until it reaches infinity at 100%.

So, in order to accelerate something with mass to equal lightspeed, we need more energy than exists in the entire universe, while moving something that weighs more than the entire universe.  Since that obviously makes no sense, you can't accelerate a tomato to exactly lightspeed.  And if you can't get it to lightspeed, you can't accelerate it it faster.

Just for giggles, when you get down to speeds we deal with, here's what happens.  The current aircraft speed record is held by the SR-71, and is about 3600 km/h, which conveniently enough is 1 km/s.  Rounding off light to be 300,000 km/s, the jet is travelling at 0.00033% of the speed of light.  Plunking that into the Lorentz factor means that the 77 metric tonne Blackbird would, at top speed, have an increased mass of 0.4 milligrams.  What, a flakes of paint, maybe?  That's why we don't notice the effects at the speeds we normally deal with, unless we are being (as in the GPS example) very, very precise.

and the Colliders down again.. a Quench has put it out for a week... there was a magnet heat up and a helium leak...

Quote - he speed of light is critical in three equations, the Lorentz transformations.  They're the ones that show that, as you go faster time seems to slow, mass increases, and length decreases.

That's the Lorenyz theory that later Eistein put as his Relativity theory. This is a theory and if you apply it is impossible to achieve light speed or higher, but first we must understand aether1s Lorentz theory.
Lorentz theory is based on Maxwell electromagnetic theory. Maxwell summed in a brilliant theory the worjs of Ampere and Faraday, the problem of Maxwell's theory is was that it was made only for stationary bodies, bodies that don't move and of course no force on a moving charge was defineded.
Yje consequence is that when we try to apply Maxwell's equation to a moving body we find that the form of the equations is not preserved (covariance). In other words the Maxwell's equations in Earth and Mars are not the same, something not good.
To overcome this problem Lorentz found a tranformation of coordinates that preserve the form of Maxwell's eauations in any system. In these tranformatins time is not more absolute and must transform too.
But this is only Lorentz approach to solve mMaxwell's equation problem. There were other solutions for the same problem that most of people doesn't know that exist.

• Hertz solved the problem replacing the partial time derivates in Maxwell's equations by total time derivates.
• Weber created other different electromagnetic theory that was based on the Ampere's force (not the force found in school books that is Biot-Savart force and not Ampere, Ampere's force is not in school books!!!!).
  If we apply anyone of these theories we have the same practical results and equations, but there is a big conceptual difference.
  On Çprentz theory we cannot achieve speed of light or overcome becaise time becomes infinite or imaginary.
  In Hertz or Weber's theory the force acting on a charged moving body becomes zero and it doesn't respond anymore to our electromagnetic fields. If the body is traveling faster than light the direction of the force is reversed slowing the object. Anyway there is nothing impossible for something move at light speed or above.
  In anyway these three theories can only be applied to charged bodies and never to neutral body.

Quote - These have all been experimentally demonstrated.  In fact, GPS satellites have to take this into account because their clocks tick at a slightly different than does a clock on the surface of the planet:....

He, he, he. .... GPS doesn't use Relativity and if use the results must be corrected by the Sagnac effect
What is the Sagnac effect? First at all what is an effect?
An effect is something that is observed, has empiric equations, but cannot be explained by any theory. Many 'effects" today have theorical explanation, but still are called  "effects''.
To understand all we must begin with the failed Michelson=Morley experiment (the failed one!).
Michelson-Morley tried to measure the absolute speed of Earth using light. They tried and failed.
They were not able to measure the absolute speed of Earth. To explain the fracass Einstein postulated that the speed of light is always the same in any direction and in consequence that is impossible to know the absolute speed of something. Yhis was the fundamental stone of the theory of Relativity.
This is the story that people know, but waht people don't know is that the story has not ended here.
Einstein's theory was not accepted, ignored or people didn't knew that Einstein existed, so Michelson-Morley continued with their experiments and tentatives and twenty years later had sucess measuring the absolite speed of Earth. Not only Michelson-Morley contined, other people did with different experiments and had success too. Among these people was Sagnac that in the 1920 decade has success. Nobody knows the existenece of those succesful experiments, it wre buried because contradicts Relativity that become a Holly dogma.
Sagnac survived by some very particular reasons even was burries for more than 50 years.
Sagnac's experiment was very simple and reliable. If we replace the light sources used by lasers, use solid state lasers we can have a very small, cheap and without moving parts that is able to measure the absolute speed of something, something that technology and industry cannot resist and so, devices based on Sagnac's effect are a common part in planes, satellites and missiles, they contradict Einstein, but they work and create money.

Quote - Incidentally, the reason why your tomato example in the particle accelerator makes no sense is because there isn't enough energy in the particle acccelerator to move a tomato.

You need very little energy to throw a tomato, any kis can do it and the particle accelerator has mega watts of energy, of course hundreds of thousands much more energy that the hands of a kid.
Is very simple, no matter how much energy you put in the particle accelerator the tomato doesn't respond to that energy, but it respond pretty well to the enrgy of your hand.
On the other side, try to move a beam of electrons with your hand....

Stupidity also evolves!

Quote - and the Colliders down again.. a Quench has put it out for a week... there was a magnet heat up and a helium leak...

That's the problem with China made things, are nice and cheap, but works only for a short time....

Stupidity also evolves!

/ignore kawecki = on

okies it's down for a coupla months now.. the damage was worse than they thought.

Khai can you pm me a link to the news story on it?

Thanks,

Daidalos

"The Blood is the life!"

 

Attached Link: http://press.web.cern.ch/press/PressReleases/Releases2008/PR09.08E.html

Straight from the horse's mouth Link to press release.

What I read from the report is that the gas removed the vaccuum from the tunnel and that means that the protons aren't going anywhere fast--an analogy would be planting part of the Rocky Mountains (helium gas) right smack in the middle of the Daytona race track--cars (protons) aren't going anywhere.  Jan

lawrencian/einsteinian physics is only a phase in human evolutionary development.
like all the previous systems (animistic/aristotelian/newtonian) it will become obsolete
soon enuff IMVHO.  unfortunately, the hadron collider may only serve to further confuse
the issue, with their typical divagations that rival those of the alchemists in their desperate
search for funds to prove something that only exists in their own minds.

Alchemy???, they are trying to make the ekta-plumbum that transmute into gold$$$, much better than the defunct stock$$$$----, .......

Stupidity also evolves!

oh if you want an interesting thing to show how damned smart our ancestors were, go check up the: ANTIKYTHERA DEVICE
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antikythera_mechanism

advanced analog computation device made aorund the time of Julius Ceasar.
For ages, the scientific world ignored it, deliberately, as it would blow the arse out of their arrogance, lol. Plenty were intrigued by it, but, to voice that opinion...they'd be ridiculed,

By this I mean, that alas, the Scientific HUMAN world of the day, was so bloody hide-bound and stupid :/
Think I'm kidding, see "Continental Drift Theory", and how that was ridiculed etc at the time :(

Scientific Method = great.
People = often bloody stupid, regardless of what area ;)
We're getting better, slowly.

LHC = fantastic work, and vital for our progression, however, there is a risk...

Why are we building the LHC?
Because we have never had such a powerful device before, to test our theories and learn from entirely new  events.

Since we do NOT know the results, we cannot be certain of the safety, to say it's 100% safe is NOT science, tha'ts belief!
To say the risk is "probably very small based on current knowledge and previosu tests", is correct: we've had no catastrophies with such devices before.

Well...not as far as we KNOW...as it's theoreticlal possible there has been many catastrophies that have collapsed/wiped out Universes, and we are in the "one" that has survived.
I'm not kidding.

Zen or  Astrophysics/quantum physics...you takes your Universe and plays with yer probabilities and points of view ... ;)

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Actually, the Antikythera find was subject of much discussion.  What it actually turned out to be (an advanced astronomical calculator) was what it was believed to be early on.  Scientists didn't dismiss it, what they did dismiss were the "theories" that it was proof of Atlantis, or ancient astronauts, or whatever.

As for continental drift, as a geologist I have to speak up.  Wegener made his proposal based on evidence everyone agreed with.  It wasn't dismissed at the time because scientists were hidebound, but because his proposed mechanism was quickly shown to be highly unlikely.  What people who use this example either don't know or overlook was that there was a host of competing theories to try and explain the same data, and Wegener's theory simply didn't have any more evidence, at the time, than they did.

Fast forward a few decades, with more data collected and, most importantly, discovery of the mid ocean ridges, the various trenches, the ability to map the magnetic field of the sea floor, and now Wegener's idea now had a mechanism.  With the evidence and, most importantly, an explanation as to how it could happen, pretty much the entire geological community accepted it overnight.

As to the LHC, as has been pointed out, repeatedly, the energy involved int he particle collisions is many times smaller than that created in the atmosphere by high energy cosmic rays all the time.  In other words, nothing that's going to be done at the LHC doesn't already happen routinely in nature.  The only difference is that doing it at the LHC means doing it where the results can be observed and measured

Another big question about the Antikythera computer: For what the Hell Greeks do need an astrolab, a navigation instrument?! To go from one Greek island to another?, you needen't any instrument for that, even Egypt is so near you do not need that.
Even if you want to use an astrolab it would be useless for the distance involved, so small to see any difference in the measurements between one locations and other.
Or perhaps they used the astrolab to navigate to the Hesperides to bring tomatoes for their salad and tin for their bronze shields.....

About Wegener:
Wegener's theory continue to be ignored. Today theory is the tectonic plate theory that is not Wegener's theory even in both theories continents move. Wegener's theory is rock floating over more dense rock and not a plate of rock that moves.
Beside Australians, who give any importance to Gonfawana today?

Stupidity also evolves!