I went grocery shopping after work today.  I was sitting outside the store at about 3:20pm waiting for a Taxi Cab.  The next thing I know I see some guy accosting a woman.  He was in a black T-Shirt and jeans with several earrings in his ear and a few tattoos.

He was pushing and shoving her around. Grabbing her clothing, and at one point it looked like he was behind her trying to push her to the ground. There was another girl there and she was pulling him and yelling "Get off of her!", but he reached behind and pushed her away.

Then he grabbed the girl he was all over by the back of the neck and literally threw her head first down into the concrete! I heard a loud crack, which could only have been made from her head hitting the pavement :(

I saw a bunch of people, including guys standing there just watching like it was some circus side show! :mad:

I dropped my purse and my bags and ran over to help that girl. I thought her boy friend was beating her up.

I ran over and yelled at him to leave her alone. He told me to mind my own business.

I walked right up to him, grabbed him by the back of his shirt and pulled  and told him to leave her the bleep alone. I was fully prepared to give him a punch to the kidneys if needed.

Now in the mean time she had tried to get up but he once again grabbed her by the back of the neck and threw her head first into the concrete with heavy force. She stopped her head from hitting the pavement by putting her arm out so she hit the concrete with her forearm instead, followed by her face.

I went running into the store [B][I]yelling[/I][/B] at the top of my lungs for someone to call 911 because someone was getting beaten up outside.

I came back outside and now they were in the parking lot. There was another guy standing there beside them watching and then he joined in. So now there were 2 of them all over this one woman.  I had come out of the store just in time to see him throw her down head first into the pavement again. I yelled at him that the police have been called. He said "I am the police!"

At that point he was kneeling on her and trying to bend her arm behind her. I saw that he had a pair of handcuffs in his hand that he was trying to put on her.   Her left arm was in such an awkward position that it looked like it might have been dislocated.

Apparently he was under cover store security and he saw her shopping lifting a deli salad and was trying to apprehend her.

IMO he was using excessive force. She was inebriated and staggering, she didn't have a gun or a knife or any other type of weapon and she was about 70 pounds lighter than he was. I told him that he was using excessive force and that he had no right be throwing her head first into the concrete like he had been, even if she did shoplift.  He told me that she tried to kick him.

While he was kneeling on her back with all of his weight, I was giving him a piece of my mind for how he had treated her.

I told him that I didn't care if she had him by the family jewels (not the term I used), he still didn't have the right to be physically abusing her the way he was and throwing her head down into the concrete risking her hitting her head and brain injury or even death. 

I'm sure she hit her head at least once. An arm hitting concrete doesn't make a loud cracking sound, but the table was in the way and I didn't see what happened with his first "throw down", I just heard the sound, which I'm sure was her head.

They took the woman inside the store. The manager came out after the fact.  I spoke to him and told him that if that was their store security, they need to reign them in because they had used way more force and tactics that they shouldn't have in order to apprehend her.

The police showed a few minutes after that, as did a Fire Truck who went in with a back board. As I was leaving I saw and ambulance show up. I'm sure she has more than a bunch of bruises because the was going at her pretty hard.

I didn't get a chance to stop and talk to the police in detail other than to tell them that the fight turned out to be store security apprehending a shop lifter, but I also told them that they should go in and investigate anyway because I felt they had used excessive force.

My cab arrived at that time. When I got home I called the police and left my name and phone number in case a witness was needed.

Now yes, what she did was wrong, but she doesn't deserve to be jumped all over and literally beaten up by store security. While they didn't punch her with their fists that I could see, everything else you would have seen in a bar fight, and that is just not right!!

I didn't see her try to hit him or kick him or even try to bite him. All I saw was her trying to get up from the ground and once up try to get away from him to presumably run off, but like I said she was somewhat inebriated and was no threat to him physically.

Anyway, I didn't even think about what I was doing when I approached and started to intervene. I just knew that I couldn't stand there and watch a woman getting beaten up.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

I think you're incredibly brave and they are the stupid ones.... should be more people like you in the world hun but wow. I thought you were gonna say she was being kidnapped or something and it turns out to be security. That's bang out of order. I hope they get an assault charge from the girl...whether she was wrong or not she's a woman, he's a big burly guy. No need for it at all.

"I didn't lose my mind, it was mine to give away"

Wow....that's just crazy. (not you, the situation...don't want anyone thinking I'm calling Acadia crazy)

Don't know any store security around my town that would go to such lengths for a salad...sounds as if this person has some issues and perhaps shouldn't be in such a position if that's how they think you apprehend someone. I know there's crazies around, but sheesh...that's over the top.

Crazy alien chick FTW! (yeah....right....)

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Maybe he had a craving for a lettuce leaf really bad :/

"I didn't lose my mind, it was mine to give away"

All that over a lousy deli salad? I dont think I would have stopped with just pulling him off, TTTT. That's insane. He needs another line of profession. Like, yesterday.

But the sad thing is, nothing will be done, most likely. Even if someone puts in a complaint, I'm sure that the cops will side with the security force, because that's how most are. Still, I commend you, ma'am. Not many people would have walked into that the way you did.

docandraider.com -- the collected cartoons of Doc and Raider

Not many would see just how inappropriate this behaviour on the part of security was, and those that did, were too cowardly to do anything about it. Instead, they all stood around like sheep watching. That is beyond sad: that's tragic.
Besides, store security are not the police force - they just like to think they are. For them to do this to an inebriated woman speaks very poorly of their skills: obviously things had gotten out of control well before then, and the security guy took out his frustration on her.
That's just wrong.

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[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Wow I thought she was being kidnapped. I was disappointed, but not shocked to hear other people...including men were around and did nothing to help. People usually watch and never intervene. It's the thing to "Mind your business" now-a-days. I was FLOORED when that THUG replied he was the police. I hate them. They're pigs. (No offense to police officers or family of police officers online). I just know they're thugs with badges. I see it all the time. Nothing will be done. They get to harass and beat the people they swore to serve and protect...all on our dime.

Quote - Wow I thought she was being kidnapped. I was disappointed, but not shocked to hear other people...including men were around and did nothing to help. People usually watch and never intervene. It's the thing to "Mind your business" now-a-days. I was FLOORED when that THUG replied he was the police. I hate them. They're pigs. (No offense to police officers or family of police officers online). I just know they're thugs with badges. I see it all the time. Nothing will be done. They get to harass and beat the people they swore to serve and protect...all on our dime.

 

They weren't police. They were store security being paid by Safeway. However, if I ever saw a police officer treating someone like security guard was treating her, I would have done the very same thing, even if it lead to me being arrested for intervening and preventing an overzealous, ego maniac from abusing their "power".

 

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Allow me to point out the obvious here, but Acadia didn't see what started this incident.

Given that Acadia didn't, we don't know all the facts. For all we know the store security may very well have been protecting everyone from a crazed woman who'd brandished some sort of weapon in the store.

Wich would mean, in such a situation that the force was not "excessive".

 

"The Blood is the life!"

 

Quote - Allow me to point out the obvious here, but Acadia didn't see what started this incident.

Given that Acadia didn't, we don't know all the facts. For all we know the store security may very well have been protecting everyone from a crazed woman who'd brandished some sort of weapon in the store.

Wich would mean, in such a situation that the force was not "excessive".

 

I didn't see what happened in the store, but she was about 25 feet outside the front doors before the guy literally jumped on her. There was no altercation inside the store, it all happened outside.  I was sitting at the second table, directly facing the direction that this whole thing happened.
I saw the woman and then I saw a man leap on her and start pushing her around. Because I didn't see what precipitated this "attack", I thought it was her boy friend beating her up. It was later that I found out he was store security.

Besides when I pointed out to the guy, when he had her pinned to the concrete in the parking lot and bending her arm in an unnatural position, that she wasn't a threat to him because she didn't have a knife, or a gun or any other type of weapon that I could see, he told me that she had tried to kick him and that he had every right to use as much force as he wanted.

The guy was on a power trip, nothing more, and he was abusing his position as a security guard. He was not a cop, and there was no weapon, therefore the force he was using was unreasonable given the circumstances.

I didn't see her kick him or hit him or even make an attempt to bite him. All she was trying to do was stand up and run off. To which is response was to throw her head first to the concrete.

 

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

right or wrong, I see some lawyer getting rich off this.

First, if he was the police, they're required to identify themselves.

Second, if he was the police, roughing up a perp, especially in front of witnesses, would leave enough holes for the defense to drive a semi through..

It could serve as a bad example on how (not) to apprehend and arrest someone...

..and don't mess with a nurse...they know how you go together, they know how you come apert..;)

I wish I'd said that.. The Staircase Wit

anahl nathrak uth vas betude doth yel dyenvey..;)

Quote - right or wrong, I see some lawyer getting rich off this.

First, if he was the police, they're required to identify themselves.

Second, if he was the police, roughing up a perp, especially in front of witnesses, would leave enough holes for the defense to drive a semi through..

It could serve as a bad example on how (not) to apprehend and arrest someone...

He wasn't a police officer. He was a paid store security guard "under cover." 
The police were called and showed up after that guy took her inside in handcuffs, but he wasn't a police officer.

However, I sure hope that she sues him for damages. I'm sure she's got broken bones and multiple abrasions and contusions all over her body. I'm not exaggerating when I say he was roughing her up and throwing her to the concrete with what looked like full force.

I don't care what her crime was, he didn't have any right to use that kind of force on her.  She weighed much less than he did, she didn't have a weapon, and yes she was trying to run away, but so would I if I had some guy jumping all over me and throwing me to the ground head first.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Acadia, I think you did the right thing. Even though you may not have seen the whole thing it's better to get involved and help out than to stand around and watch someone get the tar beat out of them, and possibly get killed. Even if she had killed someone (which I know she didn't here) she should at least get her day in court.

---

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Quote - Allow me to point out the obvious here, but Acadia didn't see what started this incident.

Given that Acadia didn't, we don't know all the facts. For all we know the store security may very well have been protecting everyone from a crazed woman who'd brandished some sort of weapon in the store.

Wich would mean, in such a situation that the force was not "excessive".

 

Not exactly. The head is considered a "no strike" zone for police and security. (If this guard had any kind of force training, he would know that. If not, he should not be working in an undercover capacity.) There's also the use of force, which basically should be used to stop the action. If the woman had brandished a weapon, the force would be focused on the weapon (stopping the action). Any lawyer would use Acadia's testimony to good effect, as the guard's actions were excessive.

Being brave and being stupid can happen at the same time.

Quote - I saw a bunch of people, including guys standing there just watching like it was some circus side show!I saw a bunch of people, including guys standing there just watching like it was some circus side show!

Sadly, people don't care anymore.  They aren't brought up to care, they aren't encouraged to care, and if they care the wrong way they're getting sued.  We live in a society with a lot of people but little compassion.

Quote - He said "I am the police!"

If this had been in the US and a security guard did that, he could have been charged with impersonating an officer of the law...  Seems like all rent-a-cops are stupid and on power-trips.

Quote - I just knew that I couldn't stand there and watch a woman getting beaten up.

I had something written in response to that, but that's a whole can of worms I don't want to open publically on the forums.

Anyways without seeing all of it, I think that yes you did the right thing by trying to stop the security guard.  If she was resisting him, he might have had a little ability to restrain her (not sure because Canada's laws might be different) but causing a dislocation is going too far unless that person is actively trying to hurt you.

RobynsVeil, it isn't cowardace that caused the people to stand by, it is apathy.  We live in an age were people don't care, not an age where people are cowards.  In the US we are barely teaching our kids to read and write (40% drop out rate in some areas), much less right and wrong.  Now if we were a more libertarian society and taught to rely on ourselves and help our neighbors, then it would be a case of cowardace.  However we live in a society that's becoming socialist and basically when we see something wrong, it's someone else's problem; it's society's problem not ours.

In other words we aren't being taught to be the good samuritian, we are letting ourselves become a me-first society that doesn't want to deal with that guy on the road who needs help.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

All "rent-a-cops" are NOT stupid and on power trips. I've know quite a few and most of them would never have put up with something like this much less taken part in it. Don't just block folks together because of what you've heard or seen in a few occasions. You did the right thing by stepping in, I've done it myself. I would follow up with a letter to the newspaper and a letter Safeway letting them know how you feel about it. I was taught to get involved and most folks I know were raised the same. My daughter would also have jumped in.

Hmm. (1) Speaking as someone who works in grocery retail, I can say that Acadia most likely -did- see all the action. Until someone steps through the doors and outside the store, you can't really make a charge of theft stick. You either catch them at the door or just outside, where the 'but I forgot I had it' and the 'I was on my way to pay for it' bullshit is worthless. If the lady in question had struck store security -inside- the store, they would have stopped her and had her arrested for assault. And drunk or sober, shoplifters do try and not draw too much attention to themselves; It makes the job harder... (2) The Rambo Run is heavily discouraged, for the simple reason that you never know when someone will pull out a piece and shoot their pursuer....or the asshole in the getaway car might decide to run down the pursuer....and any soccer moms and little kids who happen to be in the way (the lawsuits from =that= would eclipse the loss of merchandise by quite a few orders of magnitude...and as it comes out of corporate's piggy bank and not the store's.....) (3) The Vic Mackey wanna-be might very well have been an off-duty cop; many moonlight in 'soft' jobs like that to supplement the income. In which case he could be in very deep shit, depending on if the thief pushes brutality charges and witnesses corroborate. If it was a rent-a-cop, then he could very well lose his job, and deservedly so. (4) Acadia, if you want to pursue this, write a letter to a). the actual store, b) Safeway corporate, and c), provide a written statement to the local police if neccesary. If this guy's one of their own, they may cover for him...but also let him know that he was out of line big time. If he was a rent-a-cop with anger management issues, they will want to know, as that type can make a bad situation much worse. Send the first two letters for sure, and be ready to give that written statement (but you might just settle things with the letters; corporate is not going to like the image of their security beating up an unarmed woman 2 on 1). And don't be afraid to be specific in what you saw, or use proper medical terminology. Establish the fact that you know what you are talking about.

What?  You think it's nothing for a woman to try to grab a guy by the jewels?  She could seriously hurt him, and at that point force is necessary to stop her.

I'm amazed that you kept going at him after you knew he was a police man.

I call it a society of wimpdomhood.  We're such wimps that we don't even want our law enforcement people to use force, even after they've been attacked.

You can tell who would be the types to stand by and watch as somebody else gets beaten.  The police are trained individuals, a lot of them are now being trained in Gracey type CQB, the same hand to hand fighting style being taught to the US Special Forces. If he were an off duty police officer he wouldn't need to attack in such a vicious manner. He is trained to a.) Protect himself and the general public and b.) At the same time use necessary force to bring order and enforce the law. Beating an unarmed man OR woman when it is no longer necessary is not right.

There is a line that must not be crossed. I believe these individuals have crossed it. It is obvious that the last poster as well as others know absolutely nothing about law enforcement except from what the see on TV. The single most important thing that must be understood is that the preservation of ALL human life is the number one priority for law enforcement. This is the idea for which our laws are instituted and ONLY when another threatens someone’s life must a police officer make that terrible decision to take the life of the guilty to protect that of the innocent.

Arcadia, you are brave, not stupid. You didn’t stand around trying to think of clever terms like “wimpdomhood”. You didn’t wait for the evening news to see if she was a threat earlier in the day. You saw a small woman getting beaten senseless and acted on what is right and what is wrong and for that you should be applauded. The “do nothing crowd” should be ashamed. You have a lot of "jewels" and are very courageous :)

 

"All that is required for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing."

Hi, as a novice to Poser and other 3d applications I do not usually have much opportunity to weigh in and give an opinion on the usual things that crop up on this forum.  However this time the subject matter has struck a cord and I feel more than qualified to present an opinion. Since I began a major career change in 1978 I have been a law enforcement officer for the US Air Force and State of Colorado and have worked numerous security positions, including loss prevention.  So I believe myself to be an authority on this subject from the law enforcement point of view.  Oh, and as an old hippie, former conservative/liberal and now independent with socialist views I am also qualified and able to see the opposing viewpoint as well.  My thanks to those with the courage to speak up and defend people in the criminal justice field and not to unfairly generalize us like several did in this thread.  I must say that I am very disappointed in a few of you.   

 

                Winterclaw - Seems like all rent-a-cops are stupid and on power-trips.

 

            SSAfam1 - I was FLOORED when that THUG replied he was the police. I hate them. They're pigs. (No offense to police officers or family of police officers online). I just know they're thugs with badges. I see it all the time. Nothing will be done. They get to harass and beat the people they swore to serve and protect...all on our dime.

 

            RobynsVeil - store security are not the police force - they just like to think they are.

 

            SeanMartin - But the sad thing is, nothing will be done, most likely. Even if someone puts in a complaint, I'm sure that the cops will side with the security force, because that's how most are.

 

Acadia, in response to your statement of “I'm Either Incredibly Brave, or Stupid!” I would say that you are probably a bit of both and just a bit slow.  Your decision to run into the store for help should have been your first action.  This starts the 911 call and help coming sooner.  Your second action would have been to write down a quick physical description of the subjects to report to responding units.  I know a person can have the urge to intercede in something like this but please think of yourself and your loved ones first.  It does no one any good to have you hurt or killed in such a situation and such things do happen to good Samaritans.  Also if this thing is weighing heavily upon you consider asking your family doctor, clergy, or other professional for some help.  After all you are now also a “victim” in this incident and may be suffering traumatic after effects.

 

I do not alibi for the security personnel referred to by Acadia, rather feel embarrassed and sorry for them.  I have learned over the years that there is often more than one side to the story.  Unfortunately if this is a case of bad security in action it is reprehensible.  But don’t blame all security/police no more than you would all priests, doctors, judges, teachers, etc for the bad persons in those fields.  I strongly believe that better training, education and compensation has been needed for years in all parts of the criminal justice field. Do your part and speak out for this to lawmakers, reporters, business owners and students, the future workers in criminal justice.  Insist upon “professionalism.”

 

Well, thanks for listening to this old guys opinion.  I had best get down off this soapbox as it is my bed time and the job starts early tomorrow morning.

Thanks, Curtis.

Quote - What?  You think it's nothing for a woman to try to grab a guy by the jewels?  She could seriously hurt him, and at that point force is necessary to stop her.

She didn't grab his family jewels. And she didn't kick him.  He said she TRIED to kick him. For all I know it was in the shin.  But she never kicked him or punched him at all: she tied and missed.

Quote - I'm amazed that you kept going at him after you knew he was a police man.

He wasn't a cop / police officer. He was a privately hired security guard contracted by Safeway.

Quote - I call it a society of wimpdomhood.  We're such wimps that we don't even want our law enforcement people to use force, even after they've been attacked.

Again, he was an overzealous, minimum wage security guard paid by Safeway to look out for shop lifters. He was not a police office.

He wasn't attacked! He was the one doing the attacking.

I can't believe you would have stood there and watched, or even cheered on some security guard who was literally beating up a woman, or anyone for that matter, and throwing them down head first into concrete!  

All I can say to that is wow.....just .... wow.  That is so very sad to even think about :(

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Quote - Your decision to run into the store for help should have been your first action.  This starts the 911 call and help coming sooner. 

Yes, but hindsight is 20/20 isn't it :)

I really didn't think about what I was doing. I just saw some guy beating up a woman and throwing her head into concrete and I acted. Probably not in the best way, but I at least did more than what anyone else in the vicinity were doing, or not doing. I think I reacted the way I did because I have experience in abusive relationships. I was in for for about 5 years, and ever since I got out I have been an advocate for abused women, and all I saw was this guy beating on her and I felt I needed to do what I could to stop it.

Quote - Your second action would have been to write down a quick physical description of the subjects to report to responding units.

Oh I did that too :) I can describe him very well right down to the earring in his left ear.

Quote -   I know a person can have the urge to intercede in something like this but please think of yourself and your loved ones first.  It does no one any good to have you hurt or killed in such a situation and such things do happen to good Samaritans.

I didn't sit and debate about what to do, I just reacted, good or bad. But I feel like I did the right thing by standing up to that bully for what he was doing.

Quote -   Also if this thing is weighing heavily upon you consider asking your family doctor, clergy, or other professional for some help.  After all you are now also a “victim” in this incident and may be suffering traumatic after effects.

It is bothering me, but not in that sense. I'm more irked by the fact that the guy felt he had the right to do what he was doing and use the type of force he was using to apprehend a woman that was smaller and no physical match to him.  

Quote - I do not alibi for the security personnel referred to by Acadia, rather feel embarrassed and sorry for them.  I have learned over the years that there is often more than one side to the story.  Unfortunately if this is a case of bad security in action it is reprehensible.  But don’t blame all security/police no more than you would all priests, doctors, judges, teachers, etc for the bad persons in those fields.  I strongly believe that better training, education and compensation has been needed for years in all parts of the criminal justice field. Do your part and speak out for this to lawmakers, reporters, business owners and students, the future workers in criminal justice.  Insist upon “professionalism.”

I don't feel sorry for him. I'm down right angry with him.  I am in the process of writing a letter of complaint to the head office for Safeway about this.  And I spoke to a news reporter who is looking into the matter. She said she is going to find out the girl's medical condition and let me know.  And I'm phoning the district police station this afternoon to find out what charges are going to be laid against him because the last I heard, impersonating a police office is against the law, and so is using excessive force on someone.  He identified himself a "I am the police" when I was telling him to leave her alone. He wasn't the police. He should have said "I am store security", which he didn't.  

Quote - Well, thanks for listening to this old guys opinion.  I had best get down off this soapbox as it is my bed time and the job starts early tomorrow morning.

Thanks, Curtis.

Thanks for your great insight :)  Your advice is taken to heart and while I will try, I can't promise that I'll run to a phone first instead of acting on instinct, if I have the unfortunate experience to encounter something like this again.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Acadia:

You gave no physical description of the inebriated thief, yet you felt compelled to describe the security guard's dress, earrings and tattoos.

You identified with the thief, therefore she was a victim.

You did not like the look or demeanor of the security guard, therefore he was a thug.

This is called prejudice.

From the facts observed, she might just as easily be a murderous drug addict aligned with a Columbian drug cartel and he could be a college student with two children, working his way through night school.  At this point, we just don't know.  Your reaction was reflexive, and understandable in the heat of the moment, but not conclusive.

At the end of the day, what we do know is, she stole and he was doing his job.

A world without rules is anarchy.  Anarchy, having no purpose, leads to a repressive backlash and totalitarianism.

The dawn of the people's republic of Canada ...  the beavers will not be amused.

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Believe me, unless that girl left someone in the store bleeding, Safeway is going to have a nice lawsuit on their hands. It doesn't matter what backgrounds either of them have, a freakin' roast chicken isn't worth physically harming someone. And I guarantee that security guard violated all sorts of company policy, unless Safeway has much different rules than every other retail store in the US. Instead of losing a few bucks of food, they now get to pay for a hospital visit, a couple of lawyers, and, very likely, damages. This doesn't even take into account the number of witnesses who won't shop there for a long time. And that security person could be facing criminal charges himself, after being suspended and fired. All over what?

Yes, stealing is wrong. Should someone be assaulted because they're suspected of theft? Hell's bells, even the guys on "Jacked" back off a pursuit if it's putting anyone (including the car thief) in danger. What makes a good police officer, is the ability to control a situation with the least amount of force, and knowing when a situation is escalating beyond reasonable limits.

Quote - You did not like the look or demeanor of the security guard, therefore he was a thug.

This is called prejudice.

Sorry, but you are wrong.

I did take notice of both of them. I sized her up in comparison to him (she was both shorter and smaller than he was). However, I only mentioned what he was wearing because even though she was a "thief", she was still the victim because he was literally beating her up and throwing her to the ground head first.  That is just wrong, no matter who she is.  I would feel the same if it had been a guy getting thrown to the ground by another guy.  It's just not right. It's dangerous and it can kill a person.

Again, when all this started, I did not   know she was a thief or that he was a security guard at the time. So far as I knew at the time he was her boy friend beating her up.  So I made sure I had him committed to memory to report  to the police.  And yes, he was dressed like a "thug".  And again, she did not have a weapon and was no physical threat to him, he had no right to throw her down head first into the concrete. It was excessive force.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

To scanmead ... My day job is in this arena - it really doesn't work that way.  Physical detention is the policy of virtually every retail store in North America.

A lawsuit is highly unlikely - thieves make very unsympathetic plaintiffs and finding a willing attorney will be difficult.

As the perpetrator was removed from the scene by the police, her medical treatment will be on the local jurisdiction's tab.  BTW, the police do not take injured citizens from a crime scene in restraints unless they feel charges are justified (except in Oliver Stone's drug addled wet dreams).

The security guard need not worry for his job - most retail chains now enforce a zero tolerance policy against shoplifting lest they acquire a reputation as a soft touch and thereby endure staggering losses to organized theft rings.

Klebnor von die Polizei

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Winterclaw,
Please do nto mix politics with this, most folk don't have a clue what Socialism is supposed to be about, blame Lenin and some other scumbags for that :/
Religion, politics, science, law, economics etc, are usually great in theory, but in practice...ugh. That's the "Human Factor" for ya! :p

Anyway, I agree on the pathetic apathy, ugh. Let's put it down to cowardice, for it takes many forms, including:
...not educating yourself from being too lazy or gutless (hey, libraries and talking to people are free, how I learned much of what I know)
...not voting for poliiticians with brains (left/right do NOT matter, skill, brains, compassion, diplomatic skill, are what's needed in office, not "Pork barrel" corruption, pandering to ignorance etc)
...letting shysters pervert the entire concept of justice into legalized robbery and extortion.
...letting heinous scumbags serve pathetic sentences (cause they can afford good lawyers or ocme up with psychobable garbage, hey I know plenty fo folk with har dlives who're honest and loving), while fitting retarded/weird folk up for senational crimes ('cause it's easy).
...lettingour police forces become corrupt and stupid (see Brazilian electricians getting their heads blown off, little old black ladies getting shot up in their own homes by out of control cops)

Etc.

Most folk are inherenlty decent, they jsut arne't very smart or gutsy. Folk who raise their head above the parapets tend to get them blown off, or kick  din the nuts.
Up to EVERY member of society to make it better, the original poster did what was right.

I have no problem with cops beating the crap out of, or even killing folk, when it's necessary, they deal with violent, psychotic and drugged up folk, alas. I['ve been involved, alas, in violence, a lot, it's vile, scary and disgusting. Folk who threaten violence on others, get what the hell they deserve if they get retaliated on.

But there are police etc who're scuzzballs. This should not be news to any adult, alas. Most are "ok", others are superb or scum.

Anyway, the OP, did the right thing, it's completely unwarranted and ILLEGAL in just about any Western democracy, for anyone, to assault a perosn who is not threatening them, cop or not.
She was a at worse, a shop lifter, NOT a bloody suicide bomber, jeesh. Wee bit of a difference, ya know? ;)

Once a society accepts that crap, lets it occur, it's on a slide ot Hell. We Europeans know that only too well. Hence, we citizens must NOT accept that.

Humphrey Bogart voice to Acadia
"You did good, kid, real good!" ;)

"I'd rather be a Fool who believes in Dragons, Than a King who believes in Nothing!" www.silverblades-suitcase.com
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hmmm... then the last 2 companies I worked for, including the current one, must be exceptions to the rule. I know of 2 security guards who have been terminated for excessive force, and neither incident approached this level. They do prosecute, but they depend on cameras, not strong-arm tactics. I've seen shoplifters of all ages, professional theft rings, money order and wire transfer fraud, knife fights between customers, and armed robberies. Security is there to collect evidence for the police, and Risk Management is in the store almost as fast as Security.

This incident reminds me of the Rodney King debacle. Not only does no one deserve to be beaten like that, but the fallout is always more damaging to the officials than if the person escaped capture.

The important thing is that Acadia stood up for what she believed is right, not whether anyone else believes she was right or wrong. Huge pat on the back for having a spine, girl!

I will make one point, then withdraw as this is too sad for words.

I have to believe silverblade33 is a western european, and likely a young one.

Having grown up in the former East Zone of the oddly named German Democratic Republic I well remember when avoiding involvement in a police interaction was a matter of self preservation.

The western stance of horror at over-reaction by police to clearly illegal activity is a sad perversion of morality when contrasted to living where deadly force was an expected reaction to imprudent speech.

Es tut mir leid.  Ich bitte um ihr verstandnes.

Klebnor

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

Quote - The western stance of horror at over-reaction by police to clearly illegal activity is a sad perversion of morality when contrasted to living where deadly force was an expected reaction to imprudent speech

I certainly hope that you aren't saying that I over reacted to how he was beating her up and that I should have stood there like  a sheep or even worse, cheered him on?

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

First off I want to say to Acadia, whether right or wrong you did SOMETHING because of what you saw and I say kudos to that. Too often when a wrong is happening to someone, there are too many that stand by and say 'Not me, I'm not getting involved" and IMO that is cowardly and wrong. So I personally applaud you for doing what you felt at the time was right.

Secondly, please keep this thread free of personal attacks. Its fine to have a difference of opinion but do not take it to a personal level.  This is aimed at no one specific but please remember our TOS when having your discussions about this topic.

Thank you
Stacey
Community Manager

One must conclude that the LACK of horror at the "over-reaction" of authority - LEADS to a state where "deadly force  was an expected reaction to imprudent speech."

Go Girl!

Wow, this thread is upsetting to me. First, for what the security officer did and second for people defending his actions. Acadia, I am impressed by your actions. I would like to think that I would intervene in a similar situation.

I don't know what the laws are in Canada, however I have worked as a security officer in the United States. Here in Oregon, the man could have been charged with assault and would be spending time in prison. Security officers here are not police, they are merely representatives of the property owner and have no more authority than a private citizen. They can make a citizens arrest for crimes they have witnessed and they can defend themselves just as anyone else can, but they can't use excessive force like that. Unfortunately, most security officers have little or no training.

I would suspect that you should be able to press charges against the security officer if you want to, although as I said I don't know the laws of Canada. You should check with the police department if you want to press charges.

Acadia, that was stupid of you, but I do stupid as a profession anyways, so it ain't bad.

No, just kidding! I think that was very brave of you...I think that excessive force like that should not be used....yes you can run down a theif, and maybe secure him, but show him/her some respect. I'm sure if the shoe was on the other foot, that security man would be begging for mercy.

Eddy

 

Don't worry about your stance, Acadia.

Safeway is owned by Kroger. I work for Kroger, and have for the past 30 years. And the policy is that you let a shoplifter go if there is =any= chance that other customers will be harmed. And you do not do the 'Rambo Run'. I'm a shop steward, and have sat in one disciplinary hearing over a night stocker who chased, tackled, and fought a shoplifter with a carton of cigarettes in his jacket. The kid almost lost his job, the thief in question was found to normally be armed in his little escapades (this from the cops, who both thanked Rambo and ripped him a new asshole for thinking with his dick....which might have gotten shot off another time), and after the flying tackle on private property by a representative of the company, and the broken nose his landing earned him, =DID= get a nice little $$$ paycheck from the company to go away and drop the assault suit.

Retail establishments are private property....so any of the things that can happen to a private citizen in a courtroom has a greater chance of happening to a retail outlet.

I agree with StaceyG... you did something! That was the key thing, really, Acadia. You saw an injustice and did something. Too few of us do!

And I agree with Nance. Living in a situation long enough inures one to what is really bad about it. Why else would the real atrocities that have been perpetrated on humankind have been able to continue? Apathy (as someone earlier pointed out) and also a sense of "this-is-how-things-are" allows this sort of thing to continue.

There are any number of justifications an individual can come up with for "not-getting-involved". Very few for "Getting-involved". And, after the fact, with all the strife one potentially faces, one can't help but ask oneself: "was it worth it?"

A resounding YES.

You have your self-respect, Acadia. That counts for everything!

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

"I agree with StaceyG... you did something! That was the key thing, really, Acadia. You saw an injustice and did something. Too few of us do!"

Amazing definition of injustice.  A woman shop lifts, then tries to injure the officer apprehending her.  Her friend continues to attack the officer.  The injustice you find is in the officer trying to defend himself.

Dale B should notify Safeway of the purchase.  As a shareholder of Safeway (SWY) located in Pleasanton, CA I was shocked that this company was purchased by the smaller Kroger (KR) of Cincinnati, OH.  Fortunately, my shares remain safe as this is complete nonsense.

Lotus 123 ~ S-Render ~ OS/2 WARP ~ IBM 8088 / 4.77 Mhz ~ Hercules Ultima graphics, Hitachi 10 MB HDD, 64K RAM, 12 in diagonal CRT Monitor (16 colors / 60 Hz refresh rate), 240 Watt PS, Dual 1.44 MB Floppies, 2 button mouse input device.  Beige horizontal case.  I don't display my unit.

Safeway is not owned by Kroger. Kroger is owned by Dillon, and Safeway is one of the few national competitors we haven't gobbled up yet. ;)

On a lighter note, when I worked for risk management, there were some wild ones. One incident involved a well-endowed female (quite drunk), who decided shedding her shirt and bra would get her out of a night managers control. Well, it did, but then she decided she couldn't leave the store that way.

Then there was a store manager we started calling John Wayne after this happened: A young guy came up to the service desk, and handed the manager a paper bag with a note in it. (The note said "Put all the money in the bag.") The manager glanced at the note, put it back in the bag, handed it back to the kid,  said "nope"., and went back to what he was doing. Kid freezes, looks confused and leaves. About 5 seconds later, the manager realizes what happened and runs into the parking lot just in time to get a license number. D'oh!

Quote - Unfortunately, most security officers have little or no training.

This is probably one of the biggest differences between a security guard and a rent-a-cop. > Quote - Anyway, I agree on the pathetic apathy, ugh. Let's put it down to cowardice, for it takes many forms, including:

...not educating yourself from being too lazy or gutless (hey, libraries and talking to people are free, how I learned much of what I know)
...not voting for poliiticians with brains (left/right do NOT matter, skill, brains, compassion, diplomatic skill, are what's needed in office, not "Pork barrel" corruption, pandering to ignorance etc)
...letting shysters pervert the entire concept of justice into legalized robbery and extortion.
...letting heinous scumbags serve pathetic sentences (cause they can afford good lawyers or ocme up with psychobable garbage, hey I know plenty fo folk with har dlives who're honest and loving), while fitting retarded/weird folk up for senational crimes ('cause it's easy).
...lettingour police forces become corrupt and stupid (see Brazilian electricians getting their heads blown off, little old black ladies getting shot up in their own homes by out of control cops)

Why does this sound so much like a certain counrty I live in...

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Dillons, like Gerbes, is a wholly owned subsidiary of Krogers.

OJ Simpson found guilty on all 12 counts, faces 12 years to life.

Karma.

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Quote -
OJ Simpson found guilty on all 12 counts, faces 12 years to life.

Karma.

Yeah, I guess justice is starting to get back on it's feet...could it be because of the boldness of Acadia started something....

But Simpson was crazy...from all the sports figures that have had a run in with the law in recent years....and not ONE has escaped the law....Simpson didn't see this?!!!! It's time for the sports stars to really open their eyes....

Eddy

 

According to today's paper she was taken to hospital by ambulance and treated for injuries and then released.

Safeway is also defending the security guard 's ("Loss Prevention Officer") actions.

I'm still going to write to the head office about it.

Also, technically she didn't steal anything. The salad was still inside the store between the 2 doors where the shopping carts are kept. I know because I tripped over it on the way inside the store and on the way out.

At any rate he was out of line in the force he used trying to detain her.
 

And yay about the whole OJ thing.  He didn't get time for klling his wife, but what goes around comes right back at you. He'll be doing jail time now, so that's at least some justice.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

My bad on Safeway; it was Safe-co- that Kroger scooped up a few years ago.....

And very correct in Kroger owning Dillons. But only sort of. Dave Dillon bankrupted himself trying to fight Walmart with Walmart's rules, and Kroger snapped him up.....only thing is, the jerk was made CEO in the buyout deal, and has been trying to turn Kroger into Walmart yet again (they are opening up their 3rd marketplace store in Farragut in a few weeks (otherwise known as far west Knoxville)...what happens is anyone's guess atm). 

you go acadia.
no doubt you will be subpoenaed though. 
it is true that those fighting for "justice" are often people who want to hurt others but have the law on their side while they do it.  (pretty smart of them when you think about it.) many of my friends who became police did it for just that reason.  want to chase and hurt someone...want to shoot someone...even just to carry the gun in public.  they like it.  at least the proliferation of cell phone cameras can record abusive situations, the one good side of all this surveillance stuff.

here in the us we look to canada for sanity.  (we're pretty damned violent and nutzo down here)
but abuse is anywhere you look i guess.

go that way really fast.
if something gets in your way
turn

That's right, flibbits - pounding an inebriated, unarmed woman's head on the macadam (or concrete, whatever) is defending oneself here in Australia too...

Monterey/Mint21.x/Win10 - Blender3.x - PP11.3(cm) - Musescore3.6.2

Wir sind gewohnt, daß die Menschen verhöhnen was sie nicht verstehen
[it is clear that humans have contempt for that which they do not understand] 

Metaphor of Chooks

Technically stealing or not still she didn't deserve that kind of treatment.  As for safeway let's just hope people stop shopping there if they are going to support that much agression.

About OJ, I don't think it was karma, it's just that he is an idiot and he can't afford a good set of lawyers anymore.  He was lucky to get out of jail the first time, especially when he was found liable in a civil suit later, he shouldn't have been pressing things and kept his act clean until he died.

WARK!

Thus Spoketh Winterclaw: a blog about a Winterclaw who speaks from time to time.

 

(using Poser Pro 2014 SR3, on 64 bit Win 7, poser units are inches.)

Just a note: i have no time for actual scuzzballs or them suffering the consequences of their actions (our law in the UK is a total JOKE regarding self defence, sentences for violent crime etc).
But this case was was way out of control and stupid :( Security and stewards know you don't do stuff like that in such cases, jeesh.
 

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Enforced law isn't pretty to watch.  It never is.  It's ugly, it can be violent, and it's not the type of thing that goes over well in polite society.  But it is, unfortunately: at times necessary.

One aspect about the nature of police officers, security people, etc., etc. that you have to keep in mind -- their job entails dealing with the absolute dregs of humanity on a regular basis.  People who would as soon kill you for the $5 in your pocket as to look at you -- and who would do it without so much as batting an eye, or feeling anything remotely resembling remorse.  After enough exposure to such individuals, the police -- or security guards -- (who are human, too) tend to become jaded about situations that members of the public who are rarely exposed to the violence involved can find to be quite upsetting.  In fact, the "jaded" quality is necessary to maintaining personal sanity.  If the necessity of using force to put down a perp is personally upsetting to a law enforcement officer -- a "law enforcement officer" of any type -- then that individual needs to look for a new line of work.  They are in the wrong job.

In this particular instance, I wasn't there: so I can't make any judgments about the incident in question, good or bad.  But I'd consider the possibility that the gawking bystanders had somehow already been made aware of the fact that the man involved in the altercation was store security -- and thus the bystanders did not challenge his actions for that reason.  But that's just a guess on my part.  It's also possible that they just did not care.  Which happens, too.

BTW - speaking of nurses -- one of my co-worker's sons works security detail for a major university hospital.  He regularly has to run to various points throughout the complex in order to forcibly subdue violent people.......in the type of environment where you wouldn't expect violent people to be.........but they are.  Constantly.  IMO, it's a sign of our times.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

I'll add that it's also possible for the police, security guards, et al to go too far.  And that's where training and judgment come into play.  Sometimes they get it wrong.  Do occasional high school bullies "graduate" to become police officers?  Sure they do.  And if they mess up in the line of duty, then they can run the risk of getting caught out.  It happens.

Police officers tend to die young.  Even when it's from natural causes.  They have a job loaded with the type of daily stress that most of us can't even imagine, or wouldn't care to imagine.  Police work is a dirty, unpleasant job in many ways.  But somebody's gotta do it.  We owe them far more thanks than they typically get from us.

Something To Do At 3:00AM 

Xenophonz,
I have family who are or have been plain clothes cops and pub bouncers.
And from what I've heard of US law too, MOST places, for a store detective to do that he'd get arrested.
They are only allowed to:

a) Prevent harm, in which case anything goes within limits of the threat offered.

b) Assist in an arrest, they have no right to detain, per se, only a police officer can do that. the security guard perform duties FOR the store, so someone from the store has to press a charge of theft. They can hold you on that accusation until a cop comes to arrest them. Isn't that correct in most states?

In Scots law that's actually a very tricky point, as there's no such thing here as "Citizens arrest". You can "assist a constable in perfoming his lawful duties" though and that and "acting to prevent a breach of the peace" is how security guards holding thieves etc is dealt with in law, IIRC.
Just a note if you're ever over here and get in trouble ;)
Holding someone prisoner =- unlawful imprisonment and gets you jailed, here.

In general, using force like that will get thier ass canned, if not jailed if someone complains.
There is NO excuse for it in the circumstances described, even though, oh I do know, dealing with scum leaves you very dispeptic regarding the two-legged vermin :/

Now, I won't talk about what actually occurs at times regarding junkies and sucmbags of the worst ilk...rough stuff that's not allowed does happen.
It's not kosher, it's ugly but sometimes, it' s needed. Sometimes the only way to stop a scumbag escalating their actions to serious violence, is to take him out back and hospitalize him before he does that to someoen else. That's a reality most folk don't understand, and shouldn't have to.

No idea why people think gangsters, criminals and psychos are "cool/sexy", they are vicious, mostly cowardly, insane, brutal, selfish, venal thugs who'd all be much better pushing up daisies or welded into a cell. They are genuinely evil, mental cases etc, very few of that worst sort are ever redeemable.

But to give a woman a repeated beating like that, uh uh, not the same league at all ! You don't hurt someone like that without one hell of a good reason, theft from a store is NOT one of them.

 definately a case of either the store security guy gets fined/jail time for serious assault, or, the victim gets a big fat pay cheque to drop charges, and the security guy gets fired.

Someone stealing something from a store is not worth jail time, getting a knife in the riibs, being pricked by a junkies needle, or beating someone up over.

Also...lot of folk genuinely, absentmindedly walkout with things without paying. bet all of us have done it once, lol. Not theft, just foregetting you have put something in the wrong bag etc.
Another reaosn why you don't over react.

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The police just called me about that incident at Safeway last Wednesday.  They are going to come by this evening and take my statement.

If they think it will be in support of Safeway, they are sadly mistaken. I'm going to make sure I emphasize that the security guard identified himself as the "police", that he was using excessive force, and that technically she didn't steal anything because the salad that she apparently was to have stolen was inside the store, between the doors where the shopping carts are. So he was beating her up for absolutely nothing, not that he was justified in his force even if she had actually taken the salad outside.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Well, the police came and I gave them my statement. They have to interview 3 more people, plus the woman.  Then the Crown will decide if charges will be pressed against either or both or neither.

I mentioned about the salad still being inside the store between the doors. Apparently according to the Criminal Code here the fact that she walked beyond the checkouts and was in the process of exiting the store with unpaid merchandise, constitutes intent of theft.

"It is good to see ourselves as others see us. Try as we may, we are never
able to know ourselves fully as we are, especially the evil side of us.
This we can do only if we are not angry with our critics but will take in good
heart whatever they might have to say." - Ghandi

Quote - The western stance of horror at over-reaction by police to clearly illegal activity is a sad perversion of morality when contrasted to living where deadly force was an expected reaction to imprudent speech.

Contrast it to whatever you like, but I for one will still have a hard time understanding how a "stance of horror" over any injustice, large or small, could ever be called "a sad perversion of morality."

That's kind of like saying, don't complain because things could be worse, and the problem with that stance is that when nobody complains it just allows things to ... guess what?, get worse.

I have nothing against good cops, or good security personnel for that matter, or against their being given all the tools and authority they need to do their jobs, but it is a simple and sad fact of human nature that some of the same personality types that are drawn toward criminal behavior are also drawn to law and security enforcement, i.e., the kind of person who likes to throw their weight around, who likes to carry a gun, who likes to lord it over others, who relishes violent confrontation, etc., and good citizens, i.e., anyone who doesn't want things to get worse, simply have to call them on it. Period.

And way to go, Acadia.